Just Saying

The other team have ridiculed all other teams, their behaviour off the pitch kept us and the rest of the league away from European competitions, they spent £59 million putting the spade in the ground for a new stadium build which never happened and was not taken into consideration for PSR, attempted a break-off league, and accepted a voluntary charity donation of £2.5 million which has yet to be paid and the Everton supporters scouse allegiance fades unfortunately.

On a level playing field, I think most of any city's supporters would prefer their neighbours rather than others winning but the ideal world I am yet to awaken too, but nice sentiments.👍

When tragedy befell that club at Hillsborough, Everton fans stood shoulder to shoulder with them. But that unity has declined since then.

I also dislike their failure to commemorate those who lost their life at Heysel. If they want to regain our respect, then start with that.

My guess is that, with the departure of Klopp, they are about to learn a long and painful lesson in humility.

Growing up with family all in and around a couple of miles of both clubs, I never remember any real animosity between the club or its supporters, even up to the 80s in the main it was pretty good-natured stuff.

But the banter died to be replaced by a bitterness from a generation who believed it was the norm to do so. It was the years when greed and avarice were deemed by a government to be good attributes, winner with arrogance.

It's sadly not just them, every club has elements of the reflections of society. Their success fostered entitlement and arrogance, their tragedies gave way to bitterness. It's not a social media thing, it's very real, families fight with a nastiness unheard of.

Who started it is irrelevant, because both sides need to stop feeding of each other. But I see the only way it will end will be humility. In that, I agree with Steve.

Growing up in the '50s, half my mates were red and half blue. Between us all, to this very day when we meet up, there is banter but never a word out of place. We'd all still do anything for each other.

Once Liverpool started to win things regularly and their fanbase expanded outside the City, I think things noticeably changed, for the worse. Good grace, understanding, friendship all gave way to a sense of entitlement which only got worse when Ferguson's Man Utd came on the scene.

Unfortunately, these days, Evertonians can cope with loss and embarrassment; supporters of our neighbours can't.

Rob and I were at school together. His dad took him to Anfield one week, mine took me to Goodison the next. We were and, almost 60 years later, still are great mates.

But as pointed out above, Liverpool – because of their success in the '70s & '80s – have gained an international following.

When you are on a platform and some idjit from Malaysia starts crowing about how Liverpool are better than Everton, it just seeps into the mentality of the rest of their supporters. Slowly over the years the poison has increased along with the arrogance.

It now gets to the stage where, rather than wanting them to have success for the benefit of Merseyside, we want them to fail so their plastic supporters have their mouths shut.

Sadly, even through that 30-year period they still managed to pick up cup trophies (are they Spurs in disguise?) and so could always have something to sling in our faces.

It is the feeling of entitlement that, when in 2004-05 they whinged like mad that the Champions League rules needed to be changed to keep them in.

And as for calling us Bitter Blues. Yes, I am proud to be a Bitter Blue. We had the best team in Europe on 29 May 1985. The average age of the team was 24½. We had a manager under 40. We were going to dominate the way they had.

Until it was all stolen from us. And we were all banned because of them. One extra year was nothing for the crime they had committed. Five or Ten would have been appropriate to really punish them.

So I am happy for my mates – but only for them and that is why it is no longer the same.

Nope, I'm loving their current misfortunes, just like they loved ours.

UTFT, I'd Rather Walk Alone.

I've got plenty of Red Shite mates — some go the games others are just telly clappers like a lot of them in the city of Liverpool.

They call us bitter blues. That's rich coming from them who have always hated anyone else challenging their dominance – Chelsea, Man City, Nottingham Forest in the late '70s and early '80s

It's not bitterness on the Everton behalf, it's called local rivalry. So why should any Evertonian be happy to see them doing well???

You summarise the bitterness so well. This is exactly the attitude that I was afraid of and despise. Such a pity that the wonderful game has come down to this.

Got the entire English nation banned for 5 years from playing in Europe, which affected Everton the most lets be honest.

They don't even acknowledge the Heysel disaster which was arguably even worse than Hillsborough because it was purposefully done in my opinion.

They should have been kicked out of Europe for the absolutely disgusting attack on the Manchester City team bus in 2018 but not a single arrest even made.

What else?

Michael Shields, Steven Gerrard and so so and so on.

We get called bitter from nondescript no marks supporting other clubs but I doubt their attitudes would differ if they shared a city with such a odious bunch.

It's a generational thing as their support base changed over the years.

My immediate family is all Everton. But my cousins, relatives and friends are a mix of red and blue. It is always healthy debate.

As I've said before, the relationship gradually changed as they went onto achieve success on a scale only surpassed by Alex Ferguson's Manchester United.

The relationship took a turn when the airbrushed from history obvious happened, that we should never mention.

They can call me bitter all they want. I am. I was 13 years old and thought we we would go onto win the European Cup. But they destroyed those dreams.

I'll never forgive them for that.

As for the bitter tag, it was interesting listening to the bitterness walking along Priory Road after the derby. Bitter reds.

The relationship is still okay, but has changed. And their match going supporters are just different from what I remember.

I don't think the Police help with all this escorting supporters to the ground. We all meet up afterwards anyway. Unnecessary and probably causes more problems than it solves.

Same city. Different breed.

What's not to like about our loveable neighbours?

When funds allowed (if not it was Holly Park for 6d) I'd go with my red mates, it was Saturday - you watched football, most visiting teams had a player or two who was worth going to see.

If they won, there was a bit of civic pride, if they lost – well it was no real skin off my nose.

Not that it happened that much for nigh on 30 years... and there in lies the problem.

When did they turn into the rs, well the foundations were laid with Smith and Hughes and just got worse.

Money and Successs; it turned their heads and brought out something in them...even close family members you'd trust your kids lives with... somehow they can't help themselves.

They're poor losers and even poorer winners.

The saying...and its years, nay decades old... "You can always tell a kopite – but not much" is as true then as it was when I was a kid in school.

Remember when Klopp nearly totally lost it with the ballboy, he's a petulant arrogant bully who likes to give it out but can't take it... He and the Kopite Collective are, sadly well matched.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1892 and beg them – just pay the rent increase, it will benefit you in the long term.

Fortunately, I can still have sensible conversations with close family and friends. But being an exile in London, it is very difficult getting any common sense out of the London reds. And most clubs despise them.

As I've said previously, I feel almost ashamed having to educate them on their supposed club!!

I was sent a link yesterday to a Twitter link for “You lost the league at Goodison Park” coffee mugs. Small time, not my cup of tea (🤔) but just banter.

The scorn from the reds was probably justified but there was hate and snide in bundles. There was even a response showing a photo of the Steua Bucharest team with the European Cup.

I resisted the urge to respond, but those gobshites are the first to object, rightly so, to tragedy taunts but are quick enough to use it themselves over a bit of rival banter about a big result for us. The fact that no fans, stewards, police or officials have ever removed that flag tells me it's not just individuals.

Every single one of them, even little baby ones!
Gobshites the lot of em!
UTFT

At the end of the day it is in your blood and not a considered decision – it's sure as hell in my blood and I despise them.

Liverpool FC have got some very genuine supporters but they have also got a lot of the most self-entitled and self-superior supporters I've ever come across.

It stretches into their fabric, so thank god Everton let Juergen Klopp see the real Goodison when we gave him such a beautiful send-off this time last week!

Win in Europe and their captain was heard calling Everton - Tragic. Won again and the kid from Bootle was more interested in trying to tell everyone they were the real people's club. A day later, one jubilant Liverpudlian showed everyone how to celebrate by defacing Prince Rupert's Tower.

That leads me onto them firing fireworks at the Liver Building, that has their club emblem on their shirt, because it was owned by a man connected to Everton. Then they tried to blame a poor Evertonian student who wasn't even there!

I wish some parts of life were like they used to be, David, but the enjoyment I have had since we derailed their season has been ever so peaceful, if I'm being honest.

For myself, coming of age in the mid-70s/80s, despising them is a crucial part of my identity as an Evertonian: “Everton are tragic” in a hideous cringey squeaky no-balls voice, boil-bubble-dark purple face Tommy Smith telling twelve-year-old me to “fuck off kid” after I asked him for his autograph (for a red shite mate) when we were sitting next to each other on the seats outside the nurses’ room in my school, St. Mary’s College Crosby, where his son with hideous streaky greasy hair was also a pupil, “we’re on the way to Roma”, and so on and so on.

I did feel that the “Blackstuff era” of Thatcher’s full-on assault on our city brought many of us together in a political/social embrace and the highlight of that was the ’84 League Cup Final (but those blue and red scarfs were a bridge too far). They, then, found it hard to understand and cope with us as England’s and Europe’s finest. And then Heysel happened and its aftermath and its consequences (and now the shameful absence of an apology).

I can give you the date in my mind when things changed forever with no sign now of going anywhere else soon: 22 February 1986, them 0, us 2. I was in that large terrace they have with a couple of thousand blues, on the side bordering on that shite main stand. They were already mocking us about the ban. That was hard to take! There was serious violence. Not two fellas fighting in town after the match but serious violence. On that day for me they became not just the shite from across the park who I hated but the shite from across the park who I hated and were on an individual/collective level nasty scum.

I have never lost that feeling, even though I am 38 years older. In fact, it is more embedded now. Let me just mention the planned relegation parties, the Bucharest flag (why has no one with the power to do so over there confiscated that annual rag which always appears in the same place on that large former terrace?), the Suarez hagiography, cheering their players and singing their names after life/career threatening tackles on one of us, Satan minion thug sleazy me me me Slippy, the Babel of voices on that once large terrace from all points of the world but with a particular focus on farikal, fjord, A-Ha loving gobshites from Norway, the international horde/mob that descends on their shop shouting and pissing themselves with excitement on this, their once-in-a-lifetime visit to the house of evil.

And so much more …

My reflex is to recoil whenever I hear something about them.

Is my generation who grew up with the “champions of Europe” posted and pasted all over the red Echo and who in our early/mid-twenties had to deal with Heysel and its cruel consequences (not to mention Thatcher’s carefully constructed “Blackstuff” unemployment and discrimination and fucking youth training schemes) the first generation of Evertonians (but not necessarily all of us) to have unrelenting hate for them on a large scale?

Not being disrespectful to the golden generations before us but as David said, “just saying” (asking).

It's never going back to the 50s/60s Beatles, Boys Pen and Brylcreem days. Has any red ever shown one iota of regret or said we had a bad deal? No, they just display self-interest, self-justification and indulge in mockery.

The nastiest, most entitled, smug, narcissistic, delusional, ('this means more '- wtf), idolatry club and fan base in the world.

Maybe those of a certain vintage only remember the "old days" and don't really get to experience the machinations of the horrible, self-obsessed, delusional majority of them lot.
It's not just ToffeeWeb, it's not even just Evertonians, who can't abide them.

Take a look at BBC's post match HYS's and you'll see they're generally the most disliked fans/club, by far, by fans of all the other clubs. And with good reason.

I could list numerous heinous things they've done, some of them to their own fans, but I daren't.

I was going to write that I haven't got a good word to say about them but thinking about it I have two. Fucking gobshites!

Just Saying!!

https://forevereverton.co.uk/products/you-lost-the-league-at-goodison-park-everton-mug

I rue that what is described has gone, but agree with all the comments about their current/recent fanbase.

What really riles me is the love affair that the media has with them. Why? (Simple: they sell units.)

I can name any public figure (even aging royalty) or body and there is negative press about them somewhere. But when it comes to the RS, there is never a bad word, and the rare occasions when there might be, for example, after yet another public demonstration of their poisonous attitude (City bus, Prince Rupert's tower, Liver Building, Suarez,. I could go on, but you already know the litany), their keyboard army are mobilised and the narrative is seized.

The sport media seem to exist solely to keep GS's content. And every positive story about them is balanced by a negative one about us. Like Mussolini, they have seized the airwaves and they ain't never gonna let go.

The bias towards them in all limbs of media makes Pravda look like a Conservative party manifesto.

Personally, I've always despised them, even in childhood, but I do know where David is coming from as my own grandmother was similarly inclined to try and ‘see the good in them'.

For me, the worst trait of the RS hive-mind is that they truly – to their core – believe themselves and the travails and triumphs of that club to be the very centre of the universe.

That the whole city, irrespective of footballing allegiance, should savour and salivate over their success is very much the sort of thinking they buy into and then subsequently bristle about when the platitudes from Blues aren't forthcoming. Why, they'll be wanting to trademark the word ‘Liverpool' next!

They give no thought whatsoever to how their actions and witless sensationalism of anything and everything impacts upon others.

The perfect example of this was when they won the league during lockdown and anyone more concerned with the possible spread of a mutating virus, the welfare of elderly relatives and certain at-risk groups, or simply leaking out their arse at the possibility that they were perhaps living through the early stages of ‘I am Legend', were rapidly forsaken for a spot of public flag-waving and prancing about in full replica kits like a squad of short-keks rejects from ‘The Warriors'.

I found a bit of a rant of mine from the time that I think I'll regurgitate because, with hindsight, I stand by every bloody word:

———————————

I was repeatedly told that you can't blame their supporters for mass gatherings, or expect them to stay away due to concerns about social distancing, or take into account public health considerations, because this is “a historic moment”.

Apparently, a couple of years from now, ‘all this Coronavirus stuff' will be forgotten about, but everyone will still remember when Liverpool won the league for the first time in 30 years.

Yeah, nearly 500,000 deaths worldwide will fade from memory faster than a championship win secured in a busted flush of a season most football supporters could barely be bothered seeing out, never mind attributing significance to.

Then again, maybe I'm the one hopelessly out of touch with what the entire population find to be of earth shattering importance. Maybe the fortunes of one English football club does take precedence over everything else and the entire planet has ripped off their gloomy pandemic grots and replaced them with crotchless red party keks for this special occasion.

After all, a fried chicken shop in Singapore is giving away free scran to any fucker who strolls in wearing their succubi's fanny rag of a shirt.

Then there's this guy, who last month was cursing coronavirus for cocking up pre-planned celebrations for him and his fellow army of long-suffering ‘kopites'. A plan that consisted of buying a big truck and decking it out in red sheets with their meffy motto daubed all over it, so they could then take to the streets, en masse, and revel in their inevitable title win with an “open top bus parade” (of that renowned red shite hot-spot Phayao, northern Thailand) just with no bus, no ‘open-top' and no fucking title, when they decided to crack on with the celebrations regardless, before the championship was even clinched:

Link

It's as though cringe-inducing, forced, fervour has been given human form and is getting ready to crawl through the screen, Sadako style. That mooncalf smugly holding the badge out on his shirt, like in his mind it makes him the Fonz? His mates hoisting flags skyward with pepperami straight arms and the evangelical expression of a Pentecostal preacher plastered on their smacked-arse mugs?

Leads one to wonder whether, instead of resorting to a siege, all David Koresh really had to do to silence dissenting voices around Waco was whack on a copy of ‘You'll Never Walk Alone'.

I suppose you can't be too hard on the culty lemmings latching on from a distance, not when those directly involved with the club encourage such sect-like shenanigans with their own shit-spouting.

Carragher acting like he got a medal himself, popping champagne and popping off to town to join the crowd of Covid-care-less, Klopp praising Gerrard for the way he contributed to their title win by... err... playing for them in the past, and Abel Xavier, quite rightly, reminding everyone not to forget to thank Gerard Houllier for this seasons success, despite the fact the Ren-eyed (from ‘Ren and Stimpy') Frenchman fucked off 14 years ago.

——————————-

‘Credit where credit is due', they never change:

This Liverpool fan was devastated with Klopp's announcement

Great post there – both the old and new. Well said.

I've mentioned the vile experience walking along Priory Road past the coaches.

I've mentioned being sat in their Main Stand and celebrating an Everton goal to be advised that I should support my city.

I don't swear a lot and no disrespect to our Irish supporters, but the irony of him being Irish made me smile. Cheeky bastard!!

Being goaded outside Wembley after the semi-final.

I could go on. I respect older generations' recollection, but they have evolved into a horrible entitled bunch who remember what they want to remember and ignore what they don't.

Default setting if you bring it up is that "you are just bitter".

Every single one of them.

I was reading the Saturday night Echo and the article about them being promoted. I asked my dad who are they? (He had been protecting me from any knowledge and contact with them up until that time, like the good father he was.)

His response: "They are the scabbyheads, don't worry about them, son."

Now he used to listen to the away games on something called a crystal set when he was a boy so it seems to me despising them is not a new phenomenon, it goes back a long long way.

I hope he doesn't mind me posting this, but Brian Murray's story about his dad is funny.

The council put new doors on and they gave them a maroon one, which apparently looked suspiciously red.

His dad ripped it off and they had no front door for several days!!

As for the fans, I judge them on their own merits. I have red family and many of my best mates are reds. Though I'll admit I have preconceived ideas about them and I'm often proven right.

For example, if you meet a Liverpool supporter overseas then there's a fair chance they can't play football. Meet an Evertonian and there's a very good chance they can play a bit.

It just seems to work that way. You don't become a blue unless you are particularly passionate. The entry point to being a red is much lower.

I don't think I've ever met someone who said "I support Everton, but I'm not really into it".

You lost the league at Goodison Park, mugs available now!

Both clubs opened their main gates at three-quarter time and we were able to get in to see a quarter of the matches for free. Goodison or Anfield – it did not really matter, it was just football and we loved it. I realise that it is now just a dream.

Where are the snows of yesteryear?

Even though I'm aware that 'snow' is everywhere nowadays, unfortunately!

He actually paraphrased it as ‘Mais où sont les neiges d'antan'. This is so apt from my ageing point of view.

My mate Mick was like your dad, just hated them, his son Michael told me, when he was grown up, that he couldn't say the word 'Liverpool' when he was a kid because his dad told him it was a bad word.

Mick came with me to Anfield for a derby game. I'd copped for two tickets and tickets for one of the lounges after the game, thanks to Tony and Nottm Forest. We lost and, in the lounge after the game, Mick, who had very sticky fingers, said to me: “Cover me!”

We were in front of one of the cabinets holding plenty of silverware and he had a nail file in his hand. I said “For fuck's sake, don't start that in here” and walked away from the cabinet. Mick came over to me with a little smile on his face and said “Kidded you there, mate”. I thought maybe you did but I bleedin' doubt it.

Mick might be up there with your dad, Laurie, but then again he might be somewhere else. If he is, he'll be with thousands of the bastards he hated, how's that for irony! Mind you, knowing Mick, he'll jib into Heaven one way or the other.

The real difference is, since 1958, they've consistently challenged, so their sneering has never stopped. We, on the other hand, take decades off.

Based on my personal experience, God loves a knockabout and is also very merciful so I reckon there is a good chance your mate Mick will be okay.

Danny # 30 - good yarn. Brian's dad, my dad, and Dave's mate Mick combined worth 60 of the other lot (at least).

My Liverpool supporting brother-in-law (Liverpool based) always wishes me and his son well before Everton matches.

All in jest, but the last time I lived in the city, used to get my hair cut at Tuzio's in Hunts Cross for those who know it. I used to get one of those tickets for Anfield in return for a free haircut. The day before the 97/98 Coventry match, he had a mock blue and white mini coffin waiting for me!!

I still have banter with friends and family, but there is no doubting that the relationship has changed in my opinion.

And as their fanbase has grown huge, you cannot go anywhere without being hassled by them. I live in the south and play footie every week. Out of a squad of 20, there are 9 Liverpool supporters (none from the city), far more than any other club, including Man Utd. 9 against 1 isn't much fun, even if its 'banter'!

What always shocks me is sometimes these 'fans' from towns across the UK don't understand why I support Everton. They assume everyone should be like them – glory hunters!

You're clearly a very nice man which stands you in good stead in most walks of life but not here, not in this parish. Football is tribal and local rivalries run deep. You can experience that in all British cities, even here in Bristol, god help ‘em both!

My dad was of a vintage similar to yourself, born in Childwall in 1941. He started taking me to games in the late '70s and always had 2 teams every weekend: Everton and whoever were playing Liverpool.

The only time I can ever recall him absolutely losing it was in the Lower Bullens when Alan Kennedy was playing left-back in front of us for one half.

Otherwise, like you, he was a decent and intelligent fellow… except he was totally one-eyed about football when it came to that other lot.

I don't dispute they are gobshites simply a reason why.

One look at the Live Forum on matchday and then some of the more frothing posters after the match and we have all the makings of being equally heathen.

Mind you I would direct that at all supporters from any club spoilt by success for so long.

I was born into a family of Reds. To be honest, I, as a 5-year-old, only chose Everton to spite my older brother and dad. I rejoiced in their defeats, as they did ours, until the mid-to-late '70s.

The turning point for me was Shankley constantly putting us down on TV and the final nail in the coffin was Emlyn Hughes's “Liverpool are magic, Everton are tragic” chant.

Once they won their first European trophy (Uefa Cup?) they became an obnoxious bunch of cunts. I even fell out with my mates at school and became an angry young man at home.

My dad, like you, would go to Goodison and watch Everton when his team were playing away. I would sometimes go to Anfield with my sister's hubby as he would pay for everything.

It was a generational thing but, since Heysel, that's all over. They've never accepted any responsibility or showed any contrition. As far as they are concerned, they are god's gift to football.

Irritation has turned to anger and now it's downright hatred. I can't stand them, they're plastic fans… and that fucking manager of theirs.

So sorry, David. I was going to applaud you for your open-mindedness but, once I begin to think about our divergent histories, the '80s was a mere blip IMO.

Over the last 50 years, I can't help myself from hating them and the people who have overseen our steady and permanent decline.

My extended family and friends are a right mixed bunch.

As individuals I don't have issue. It's as a collective.

Lighter note, I had to separate my two cousins (sisters) having an argument over Everton and Liverpool in the Metal Box car park in Speke at my mother's wake!!

We all walked home together, friends again!!

Talking about poems/songs, I was listening to Spanish Train getting sung by Chris De Burgh this morning and, when the devil was cheating and winning more souls, I couldn't help but see the smiling face of our departed chairman!

I used to think of Everton and Liverpool that way. I always call them Liverpool, even now. I admire good football, whoever plays it. I would never apologise for that.

My first inkling that things were not ofay, was from an Everton supporter who hated them. I always talked to any Liverpool Supporters I come across, but have noticed some of them on edge in recent years.

I have the ability, part of my past job, in talking to someone not giving them the chance to vent what they think. I do get signals of having to do this most times I talk to a Liverpool supporter.

I personally felt Heysel did prevent Everton from winning the European Cup. I knew there was an element amongst their support that were thugs. A French penpal from Lyons, a St Etienne supporter, was outraged over three letters regarding their conduct in Lyon.

But Heysel Stadium was crumbling with ready-made ammunication lying about and no security. An Arsenal friend who went to find the toilet a year before in Heysel, found himself out in the car park and able to walk back in.

Actually it is Uefa that should have been sued along with Liverpool, rather than a ban put on other British Clubs. Uefa got away with murder there.

There is no doubt on ToffeeWeb feelings run deep regarding Liverpool and I found myself abused by Liverpool supporters on the rare occasions that I have shared forums with them.

I would be definitely avoiding them on a matchday.

Your dad (WWI) and my dad (WWII) fought and died next to lads from all over, ie, Mancs, Geordies, Cockneys, Brummies, Jocks, Taffs and Micks (excuse the non-PC language).

They all loved football and no one cared who they supported. In between the wars, they all suffered during the depression so there was a bond between people of that era.

Of course they were passionate about their teams but no one hated each other like they do today. There were no firms. No snotty nosed kids looking for trouble. No tragedy songs etc… People went to the game, had a pint and a bag of chips and then went home. All for 1s/2d or less.

Tonight I will be on Ray Charles "I can't stop loving you" and Elton's "I guess that's why they call it the blues" in preparation for tomorrow.

That's before I hit “Bitter, Twisted and Proud” and sleep with the dog!!!

I agree that Uefa should have been brought before the courts, for the shambles that was the Heysel Stadium, and I believe the English FA, should have been charged over Hillsborough, when you consider the stadium never had a safety certificate, and Forest, were also given the massive kop, whilst the much bigger supported Liverpool, (going on the average attendance of both clubs, during that season) were given the much smaller dangerous Leppings Lane.

I remember being in a pub in Harrow, after the Hillsborough final, and an Irishman started talking to me about the pitch invasions that day, and I asked him did it look bad, considering he had brought it up? He suddenly got all irate, and said look bad? No son, it was fuckin incredible, because you are the only two sets of fans, who could have invaded the Wembley pitch, without a punch being thrown.

It has always stayed with me what that man said, even if I remember one of the biggest terrace fights, I have witnessed, happened in October 1984, at the end of the derby at Anfield, after Sharp, had scored that beautiful goal.

You are not bitter, twisted and proud Danny, you are simply more honest than most Liverpudlians. They have gone very, very, very, very quiet at the moment, because their false patronizing definitely backfired last week, and it is still killing them.

I remember after we won the league in ‘85, we played Liverpool early in the season in ‘86 and I sat back in the Lower Bullens to enjoy them being whacked, only for Dalglish to score a goal within 38 seconds from outside the box. I can still see him as he wheeled around, with this hysterical delight on his face. Of course it was 3-nil by half time.

And I think their unnatural success didn't do them any favours. I saw an interview with their players after they won the 1974 FA Cup (weirdest things pop up on YouTube) and Malcolm MaDonald said “We were well beat today, we just couldn't get going.”

The interviewer turns to Emlyn Hughes drinking from an old fashioned milk bottle “We outclassed them in every aspect of the game.”

Still, no I don't hate them. At all. I admire some of their successes (they still bear the name of our city after all), such as the Champions League comeback win against Milan. I wish relations were better between the fans, I think we'd all benefit from a return to friendly rivalry.

Before the recent derby, I was told by a Liverpool supporting acquaintance that our win at Anfield under Carlo didn't really count as a proper win as it was played in Covid-conditions.

I asked him if that meant their league title win was also invalid? … still waiting for an answer.

Of course it was invalid! So still no league titles in 34 years for the gobshites.

07740786325

I live in hope! Thanks.

Both clubs had won 5 titles, it was a self-regulating rivalry as a result.

We were marginal top dogs because of the glory of 2 FA Cup wins and the stellar exploits of Dixie Dean but Shanks got them promoted, won the title, and gave them their long desired first FA Cup. They matched then overtook us, taking the piss relentlessly.

I lived through it all – the scars will never heal.

I have no doubt that your 'various sources' are misleading you, there was no hatred between Everton and Liverpool fans in the 50s, and if there was an altercation, it must have been staged at a Liverpool Senior Cup final, because Liverpool were in Division 2 from 1954 to 1962.

Evidently, the violence occurred at train stations so presumably it wasn't at a game between the teams but rather fans encountering each other en route elsewhere.

LFC: Our Day of Shame

It puts to bed any notion that they were in any way, blameless.

Just Sayin...

Far from it, and that's from someone who was there!

There was that devastating FA Cup loss in 1955 when Liverpool beat us 4-0 at Goodison Park before over 70,000 supporters, that might have caused an argument or two!

Just Sayin — We can't all be wrong.

The 1955 game has haunted me for years, 29 January 1955 has been implanted in my mind with that of Tottenham Hotspur 10 Everton 4, on 11 October 1958.

I was in the Park End for the Liverpool game, and in Cyprus serving Queen and Country for the Spurs Game. The reader of the football results said, "I will read that score again".

Hi Kieran [62], there was a spate of football trains being damaged by both Everton and Liverpool fans in the 50s, but there wasn't mob violence between them.

I may be wrong but I thought that this thread was trying to pinpoint the beginning of the hatred shown by some Blues and Reds.

You're correct on the purpose the thread; I was just sharing what I had read.

Now, I wasn't around then myself but the initial report I read was on the history of derby violence and it equated Glasgow with Liverpool, where there was violence in the former from the outset, but it didn't occur in Liverpool until the 50s between Everton and Liverpool fans “at train stations”. A couple of other articles mention this violence in the same context.

With that having been said, I've tried to research more since my earlier post and there's not a lot of info though various articles mention mention both sets of fans rioting and trains in the 50s but don't explicitly say it was with each other. So I'll take your word for it as I wasn't around then.

My Dad was too young to remember too but it may be the articles on city rivalry violence took a leap from ambiguously worded reports of violence and put 2 + 2 together and came up with 5. I don't know.

What I will say, though, to David's original point, is that I have heard plenty describe things as he recalls. I've also heard plenty of this thread and elsewhere describe otherwise. Just like some insist Everton was a Catholic club, others a Protestant club and others say neither. Everyone is going to have different perspectives that are equally valid.

So David obviously had experiences around friendly folk; others didn't. My elderly parish priest as a kid who was a generation older than you somehow only knew Catholics who were Evertonians; my best mate as a kid's family going back 100 years somehow thought they and all Evertonians were Protestants!

When you've got tens of thousands of people involved, you can find lots of folk who you amass evidence for very different experiences.

They called us "bitters" immediately — but there was no bitterness from us in commemorating from day one the hideous Hillsborough losses over a decade later. We spoke from the heart of innocent fellow scousers.

We've always been a class above — and you can't buy that.

My red mates' red friend brought back a chocolate bar from Spain because it has the word 'negro' on it, to show that 'negro' was a word in Spanish (this was news to them, it seemed), hence justifying Suarez making a joke at someone because of their skin colour.

My mates agreed with their mate who agreed with Suarez. They are all just brainless or dickheads. Or both.

I think the first reported train getting damaged on football excursions was by Liverpool fans going to Doncaster on a Good Friday in the early '50s when the train was badly smashed by the Red hooligans.

More than likely the first thing they ever did at anything and being honest it was probably done out of the frustration of being stuck in the Second Division.

No need to do it on a Good Friday though!

I agree to a certain extent. We gave, and continue to give, empathy and support for the tragedy at Hillsborough, and rightly so.

You'd have thought that that might change their outlook and behaviour towards us and others but it didn't, not at all in my opinion.

Their supporters who constantly sang of Munich, and continued to do so post Hillsborough, suddenly "realized" how bad "tragedy chanting" was when it involved them and created a furore.

1. Continual crowing about how wonderful is StevieG La .

2. Their berating of Uefa of how wrong it was that, because they finished 5th and would not be in the Champions League – and we were – and it was wrong that they could not defend their trophy.

3. We ended up getting stuffed by Uefa (and we think EPL is corrupt) with a team who topped their group (Man Utd finished bottom) and who then went on to lose to Arsenal in the Semi-Final. Meanwhile, they ended up with CSKA Sofia from Bulgaria who had a lower co-efficient than we had.

No. It was a disastrous result.

I can't forgive them and their arrogance winds me up.

As the saying goes, you don't choose your family even though you will argue with them.

I prefer the term 'dislike'. Not necessarily aimed at individuals who I know, just at that club and its collective supporters.

A while back, someone showed me a photo of a young StevieG wearing an Everton shirt. It made me wonder if the 1878 Group might consider producing a banner highlighting the RS players who started life as Blues but later defected to the dark side, eg, Rush, McManaman, Owen, ‘Carra' etc …

I'm sure a clever designer could come up with something amusing.

Then again, these days, such a design might be deemed ‘tragedy bannering' – prompting the EPL to penalise us with a made-up-on-the-hoof 25 points deduction (while continuing the policy of taking no action against the Sly 6).

My Grandfather, who was Blue to his core, would work Saturday mornings and then watch whichever team was at home in the afternoon. These days, you can go for weeks without Saturday afternoon football.

My Father, who was a normal, rational, quiet man, just lost the plot when it came to Liverpool, his hatred knew no bounds. We weren't allowed to have cherryade in the house, after every Anfield derby, he would return home and – regardless of the score – would go into the back garden and burn his shoes. People wonder why I am the way I am.

Personally, I blame the internet for the proliferation of the Red Shite virus and for the abdication by Everton's hierarchy to promote the club in any meaningful way. Regrettably, the city is not all ours – and it won't be until the long-looked for antidote to redshiteism is discovered.

I'd have liked that man very much!

Killed me that!

One last word on this difference between the two sets of supporters, Monday morning the window men come to do the windows, even today, a Bank Holiday. They are two well mannered young lads and my wife always comments on how they come and do the job, very polite and always refuse the offer of a drink and something to eat.

We have never spoken about football but this morning when I went out to pay them I asked the lad “Do you follow football?" He said he did, I said “ You're a Bluenose aren't you” He started laughing and said “Yes, you can tell the difference, can't you?”

We had a good 20 minutes regaling each other with stories about different games and how he and his brother had gone to the match with his dad and grandad as very young boys.

My.wife broke the stories up by telling me the lad had better things to do than gab to me all day about football. Me and the lad just looked at each and smiled – although he did take the drink that my wife gave him.

I think we will be having another chat very soon!

But I don't like or respect them because of how they carry success (badly) and failure (even worse).

Above all else, I don't respect them.

What I don't understand is that no one ever points out the many historical things they should be ashamed of. No one but us seems to have any understanding, not even the vast majority of their ‘supporters'.

Outraged about everything and ashamed of nothing, pretty much sums them up. They are simply, the stain that never fades.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/774170065941604/?multi_permalinks=25749604371304828¬if_id=1714807120295328¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif

I loved the "Stevie G is writing a book about his career at Liverpool but as yet it has no title".

On the cherryaid. My wife comes from a totally non-sport interested family in Sweden. First time we went home after we got married she gave her mum a lovely red skirt she owned. She had difficulty explaining why I would not let her wear it.

I do not live on Merseyside and so am not subject to the vitriol that emanates from both sides, particularly around derby time. I don't have to put up with being ridiculed mercilessly when we lose but my sister is Blue and my two brothers are Red. We have always managed to get on, regardless of the result.

Sadly, this is indicative of society. Recently, I heard someone say, "Consumerism makes us competitors" and not in a good way. Whatever happened to popping round to the neighbours to borrow a cup of sugar? Regardless of what team they support.