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VIEW FROM THE BLUE

Responses to 'The Loop' debate

By Lyndon Lloyd :  30/07/2007 :  Comments (26) :

As expected, the examination of the "tunnel loop" site as an alternative to Kirkby or staying at Goodison Park has provoked the same mixed reaction — running the gamut from outright derision to unbridled enthusiasm — that greeted Warren Bradley when he proposed the location the week before last.

The article was a response to repeated assertions on various message forums and websites that putting the site off Scotland Rd forward as an alternative was ridiculous, a non-starter, a total red herring. I wanted to demonstrate that the site could sustain a 50,000 stadium development, that its apparent access limitations could be addressed, and that ways of funding the construction through a wider regeneration scheme were possible. I never proclaimed the "tunnel loop" to be the silver bullet — maybe the piece should have been entitled "The Loop Could Be Done" — because I don't by any stretch of imagination have most of the answers let alone all of them. And how could I?

As many of the reader comments observed, the piece is littered with ifs, buts, maybes and potentiallys but that's because I'm not privy to the financial or urban planning details being discussed around the potential for this location and never pretended otherwise.

I'm not an architect but the fact that Trevor Skempton, who is one by trade, believes it is viable and that Bestway's Head of Property, a self-described "developer", believes it's viable tells me that a stadium could be built inside the tunnel loop.

I'm not an economist but both the Kings Dock project and the Kirkby Project — both of which involved a manageable contribution from Everton FC — tell me that a funding package involving the tunnel loop site and the area south of the Kingsway could be put together to make the loop location viable.

Your club have presented you with just one option on the Kirkby Project ballot and have provided no evidence to suggest that they have given the sites put forward by LCC more than a cursory look before ruling them out due to the lack of a commercial partner. Furthermore, they have been locked in an exclusivity agreement with Knowsley Borough Council and Tesco since December, prohibiting anyone from engaging in discussions with them about proposals for alternative sites, presumably until after the upcoming vote.

Your local media has been all too keen to push the Kirkby option on the club's behalf but no one has seriously investigated the viability of a site like the "loop" and asked, "would that be a way to keep Everton in the city if the right commercial partners and funding options could be found?"

In this vaccuum of serious discussion of viable alteratives, can the fans really say that when it comes time to mark an "x" on their ballot paper that all options have been exhausted? And does it not behoove a site like ours to give a voice to those who have heavy scepticism of the Kirkby option, who be heartbroken if the club left the city and feel like they are being railroaded into a quick fix when other altenatives might exist?

It may yet prove that those of us who believe that the "tunnel loop" is a viable alternative are nave in the extreme and that we've had the wool pulled over our eyes by a council desperate to save face — although you'd have to question why Mr Bradley would put his political career on the line and risk alienating half of the city's voters by seeking only to derail the Kirkby Project and then having nothing to offer as a contingency. My sense thus far is that Bradley and LCC are serious about delivering an alternative proposal — and you're free to speculate to what ends — and that Bestway are not mere pawns — willing or otherwise ?in a game of political posturing, wasting precious time and resources coming up with a dead-end proposal that would never come to fruition.

In the words of the afore-mentioned Head of Property, Malcolm Carter, "I come at this from a neutral perspective and with an open mind and an open heart." He and his firm may stand to gain from any stadium project for Everton FC but they're not dependent on it by any means. The site they currently occupy already serves them very well.

This is an emotional and divisive issue — the future of our club is dependent on its outcome, after all. It's quite possible that you will mark your ballot without knowing all the facts about any of the options that exist, Kirkby included. Fans should also prepare themselves for the very real possibility that a clear picture of how a potential stadium at the "tunnel loop" will be funded and by whom may not be available to them when it comes time to vote.

That will make the decision all the more agonising and difficult — and it may benefit you to delay marking and posting that ballot as long as possible — but your gut instinct will probably tip you either way.

Is the "tunnel loop" location ideal? Of course not, but in their current state Everton as a club don't have "ideal" available as an option anymore. "Ideal" was the Kings Dock. "Ideal" is Liverpool's "New Anfield" development. Kirkby offers land and funding but comes with the trade-off of being outside of Liverpool and 6 miles from the club's roots. If you don't care where Everton play, then you already know how to vote.

The Scotland Road site is in the perfect location in that it is in Everton ward, close to Liverpool city centre and in an area ripe for the next wave of urban regeneration. But it comes with significant trade-offs, not least the tight dimensions of the site and the fact that it is surrounded by roads. If you believe that these are just obstacles that can be overcome by some of the suggestions made in the article (does having a road running under the stadium bother Manchster United?) and some architectual imagination, if you believe that Everton belong in Liverpool, and if LCC can deliver a solid financial proposal then you know which way you want to vote.

Ultimately, we as fans can only speculate and muse about possibilities and that is all the article set out to do. The onus on proving that the "tunnel loop" or any other site in Liverpool is viable rests with Liverpool City Council. The onus for providing solid cost estimates and long-term benefit projections at Kirkby is on the Everton board.

The decision, however, rests with those eligible to vote and the more information from which to draw and to make that decision the better.

Reader Comments

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magic juan
1   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:32:23

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Thanks for all the effort you’ve put in. In summary I think you’ve managed to put across how I passionately feel about this issue, that I do NOT believe that the club have considered any options other than Kirby and have mislead us over this all along. For there to be no plan B , and I keep saying this, is tantamount to corporate negligence, and the scaremongering tactics thus far used have been patronising and amateurish and shambolic.

Let common sense prevail, vote no and make the board pull their finger out and get their sct together
Cindy Cole
2   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:40:50

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Agreed Lyndon. How anyone can consider that the current vote is equitable (when it is based upon the choice of ’Kirkby’ or ’not Kirkby’) is beyond me. I believe that the ’Loop’ site represents a far more acceptable alternative to Kirkby in terms of location and future profitability. I hope that LCC move swiftly to cost this proposal in order that the sceptics may be enlightened before it’s too late.
Ken Buckley
3   Posted 30/07/2007 at 20:26:46

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Lyndon, your piece was excellent in probing the possibilities of an alternative such as the loop.It produced feedback in significant numbers and highlighted the many differing opinions amongst fans.The question to be put to fans is fair enough according to most observers that I have either heard or read but in my opinion it is an unfair question.It asks if I want the club to go to Kirkby and my answer is no.But to put that no down on the ballot form leaves me with a dilemma.Will that no if reciprecated by enough people put our club with no plan B back so far as to do irreparable damage?.By what I made of Joe’s financial report it seemed to me that the club needs to move on and fast.So this is my dilemma and why I think the question is unfair.I,as an ordinary fan,do not have the hard information of ANY viable alternative and no knowledge of what may have gone on behind the scene allready.Therfor my answer to whether I want the club to move or not is far from straightforward and unfair as I am not in possession of all the facts.I think the Board should be real leaders in this vote as they are the custodians of this club and be able to tell us why and how they came to their decision and also the degree of urgency.The question put also carries no recommendation from the board itself!, thus leaving an uneducated fan such as myself to help decide the future of our club for years and generations to come.I belive this to be an unfair burden and one the club still has time to address and show its leadership qualities. I believe this vote to be to simplistic considering the enormity of its outcome but unless something rears its head at the last minute and is sufficient to make all parties sit up and take notice then our simple mark in one box or another will decide the future of the club.I am not sure thats the right way to go.
Barry Lightfoot
4   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:28:48

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It’s speculative at best, Bestway aren’t going to build a stadium for Everton also they are not going to give the land away for nothing. The council have already said they will not give land to Everton for free in the city limits so they are not going to give Bestway an alternative site for nothing to free up this land for Everton. In Kirkby we’re getting free land and a stadium mostly paid for by Tesco. Also saying we’ll get grant money to help towards a stadium is just wishful thinking you don’t get grant money to build a stadium for a private concern. Just exactly what will Bestway gain from this because I cannot see anything the Tesco/Kirkby link is crystal clear. We are running out of time we’ve just been passed in the money stakes by Villa, Man City, Spurs, West Ham and others are coming up fast, bollocks like this will not help at all. Kirkby is Liverpool.
Nick Toye
5   Posted 30/07/2007 at 22:57:15

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@Barry, surely everything that has not been finalised to a certain degree is speculative. The Kirkby project is dependable upon supporters votes. The Loop is dependable upon LCC.

I for one found the Kirkby project a pleasure, but that was because I felt we had no choice. But to play back in Everton, surely that is the only thing that matters, the sweet pill that we are home at last. In the vicinity of the very thing that iconised our club.

For me that is what’s important, plus the benefits of being right in the heart is immense.

Lyndon, you know me, I am right behind you on this one.
John Charles
6   Posted 30/07/2007 at 23:10:59

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Again, I admire Lyndon, but again:

show me a stadium design and a costing and a business plan for how it is funded.

The danger is voting No to kirkby on the basis of wanting to find out more about sites such as the loop and then having no kirkby or no nothing when we find out the loop isnt viable.

Will we be 5 years further down the road still in goodison with costs 5 years more expensive (for land appreciates higher than inflation) saying "damn kirkby was the solution" ala king dock like we do now?
Paul
7   Posted 31/07/2007 at 00:19:59

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Well said Nick Toye, And dont know you Lydon but great stuff. Lets take Everton home.
Dick Fearon
8   Posted 31/07/2007 at 02:49:17

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It defy’s logic that Everton chose Kirkby instead of the Loop.
Dick Fearon
9   Posted 31/07/2007 at 03:00:55

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My previous post might give the impression of criticising Everton’s board when in fact it is the other way round.
It should have read, why do Everton go for the Kirkby option instead of the Loop? I can only guess the answer lies in hard cold cash or the lack of.
Lyndon
Editorial Team
10   Posted 31/07/2007 at 07:13:39

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John Charles: "Show me a stadium design and a costing and a business plan for how it is funded. The danger is voting No to kirkby on the basis of wanting to find out more about sites such as the loop and then having no kirkby or no nothing when we find out the loop isnt viable."

That is the whole issue in a nutshell, John. I wish I could have given you all those important details but, like I say, I don’t have them and it’s not up to me. It’s now over to those who do to demonstrate whether it’s viable or not.
David Smith
11   Posted 31/07/2007 at 09:20:04

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Well done Lyndon : bloody good work and you modestly and truthfully admit that you cannot provide any more than this. It is already enough to give second thoughts prior to the vote.

Surely the obvious reply to this dilemna is to postpone the vote a limited time until a proposal is on the table for the Loop !! What’s an extra 2 months to the future of the club in order to make the RIGHT choice, indeed to even HAVE a choice.

Everton’s coming home. :-)
stu
12   Posted 31/07/2007 at 09:32:41

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Tesco: Hi Everton fans. Here is a 75m cake. It’s all yours if you move 6 miles. I’m gonna make millions flogging bread, jam, and car insurance to the local population so this is just a dip in the ocean for me.

Everton fans: That cake is shit, it’s a mile too far away, it isn’t in a landlocked roundabout, we don’t like your suspicious bread and jam thankyousoverymuch. EVERTON TILL I.... oh we’re dead!
Neil Pearse
13   Posted 31/07/2007 at 10:35:37

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Economists talks about "scarce resources". The problem bedevilling this whole new stadium debate is confusion about what the scarce resource is for Everton.

The scarce resource is MONEY (i.e. funding to build a stadium). It is not LAND (i.e. a place to build it).

This is why all the excitement over the Loop is so misplaced. Kirkby is an option for Everton because it brings money - Tesco and Knowsley pay for the land and the stadium.

The Loop is only an option for Everton if somebody shows up willing to pay for the land and build the stadium. Nobody has. Otherwise, like any piece of land in Liverpool it is just that - a piece of land. Therefore, without funding, the Loop is not a meaningful option.

What those who are truly against Kirkby should be arguing is not -"look there are other sites!!" (of course there are, and BK and KW would not deny it). They should argue: "Kenwright should sell the club as soon as possible to someone else who has the money to pay to build a stadium on another site".

Without that new owner, all options other than Kirkby truly are no options at all.

A "no" vote to Kirkby may well make BK’s and KW’s positions untenable, and trigger a situation in which Everton could be snapped up by whoever fancies it. This has attractions, but also runs the grave risk of throwing Everton into utter turmoil, in which casualties could also include Moyes and a number of our best players.

Personally I believe Everton’s best option now is to build the site in Kirkby, and then for Kenwright to move on for a new owner who will inherit an extremely attractive top tier club with a new stadium, fine squad of players, and virtually no debt.
John T
14   Posted 31/07/2007 at 11:46:18

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Neil, spot on I agree totally we cannot afford to waste any more time looking at options that are pie in the sky.

A new stadium makes us viable for investment especially with minimal debt
ryan crest
15   Posted 31/07/2007 at 14:02:01

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Just drop it Lyndon. It’s a crap idea and you know it.
John Charles
16   Posted 31/07/2007 at 14:23:44

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Yeah sorry Lyndon, I wasn’t being critical of you for not having that information, but you have to admit, LCC and Bestway have suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

What if we vote no to Kirkby? As I understand ti won’t be something we will be able to go back to - you see my point I know you do.

You are spot on - "It?s now over to those who do to demonstrate whether it?s viable or not"

If it is demonstrated to me that an alternative package - a real package not pie in the sky- is actually on the table, or will be inside a couple of months, I will vote No to kirkby... if its not I will be a reluctant yes voter still.

To all those saying "everton should be on the loop or walton/everton etc etc not kirkby" then I think we are way past that arguement now. We all know that, but its no good saying it and not having numbers to back it up.
Mike Squires
17   Posted 31/07/2007 at 16:19:25

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Dear Lyndon

You are obviously an intelleigent guy your posts are excellant but the Loop is a none starter for me. I know you are desperate to keep Everton FC out of Kirby. I live in Wallasey and have just driven through the tunnel and the site is rediculously unsuitable. Its far to small for what we need.How the hell I’d find a parking space and a Pub for a prematch pint beggars belief.I travel through the Kingsway to every home gome and the traffic is very heavy both going to the game and returning.There are a large number of Evertonians going to the game from Wirral and North Wales, don’t forget. Your claim that most match going Evertonians live within walking distance of the ground is a gross exageration, I for example park 10 minutes walk away from the ground because you can’t get any nearer. I suppose most fans do the same.Kirby looks good to me, parking. Pub etc. LCC are trying anything at the 11th Hour when they have years to produce a suitable deal for Everton, which they have abjectly failed to do.The Stanley Park issue really sticks in my throat, As it does with most blues I talk to. Why can’t they put us in the park on our side? Liverpool have got the Car Park at the top end we should be able to use the other side. Has anyone asked Bradley about this, there’s more space there than at the Loop.This KOIC business is pretty pathetic Walton is on the outskirts of an arbitary boundry, its rundown and neglected. When we played Necastle at home last season one of their supporters remarked on how shabby the area around Goodison was, the area around the Loop is even worse even though it is nearer the City Centre. How long is it going to take to redevolop the area? where’s the planning & the money.

Lyndon I don’t doubt your sincereity but you’re pushing to hard and I doubt if you have actually been through the Wallasey Tunnel recently ,if ever. I’d love to meet you in Wallasey before the Match and take you through the Tunnel ( there & back) just to show you what its like on Scotty Road on Match Day.
John Charles
18   Posted 31/07/2007 at 18:02:22

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the problem with us having the other half of Stanley Park is that who is going to pay for the construction of the new stadium???

Gillet and Hicks have put themselves and LFC the best part of 300m in debt to build ’The Toilet Bowl’, so unless we are prepared to do the same and then that would hit our revenue’s year on year with interest payments goign to the bank rather than to the manager to fund players.

Same with Wally Hall Park, even if the council give it to us our problem is we dont have 80-100m to build a stadium so we’d have to borrow it and then have to add an extra 6-9m per year in just interest payments to pay for it.

Kirkby gives us a new stadium costing us 15m total. Building one ourself in the park would cost roughly 6-9m per year every year just in interest repayments... btw LCC wont give us the land anyway will they.
johnboyblue
19   Posted 31/07/2007 at 21:32:03

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True blue until I die, I know we all love GP but lets see sence guys,we have not got the money to buy and land or even build the stadium and if we refuse this offer we are really in the brown stuff,we are only moving 4 miles away from our home and when you look at the stadium,rail links,parking ,road links its a win win win for me....tesco only invest in areas where tey can get a good return and thats why they are investing in Kirkby as it is only second to liverpool 08 for investment in the north west.......Kirkby is a boom town so lets boom with it....Stuff lcc and the half hearted attempts to help us,embrace knowsley and tesco and vote .........YES YES YES
Jip Foster
20   Posted 31/07/2007 at 22:17:28

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Perhaps LCC have not really had the incentive to offer alternative sites until the Kirkby project - and even then it’s debatable how much the board discussed alternative sites wih LCC (but that’s a different arguement).
What if when Everton mentioned the move LCC decided to get their arse into gear and start looking; let’s face it they aren’t going to do the Bestway deal/discussions over night - this would have taken weeks/months. Perhaps now LCC are playing the game - waiting to announce the ’viable’ alternatives when they would have the biggest impact - on the eve of the kirkby vote. I think LCC do mean business and I think we’d be daft not to look into the loop in more detail.
If we say no to tesco is it a no forever, or could we come back in a few months when the loop, or any other site, has been investigated further?
Such a possibility should not be ignored with a yes vote.
edfitz
21   Posted 01/08/2007 at 11:30:45

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Lyndon

Another excellent article. I only hope enough Evertonians have the courage to vote no as the propaganda from Everton, and the local media appears to conisder people who dissent as sentimental fools who have little intelligence or business savvy. I would like to be presented in detail what Tesco are going to gain from this, they are hardly the most benevolent of companies. Perhaps because their boss is a blue he is doing it out of the goodness of his heart with no thought of future profit margins? mmm think not. As for Kirkby being a boom town, and being more scouse than the King Dock (Whatever that means) I am left speechless. Slagging off Liverpool FC does not help, becuse like it or not they are going to have a state of the art ground in Stanley Park (Where we played first) and if we go to Kirkby they will be the only team left in the City of Liverpool (Fact). What a way to treat the first club of the City for 129 years, what will be on the badge then (Prince Ruperts Keep? or a Tesco voucher!)
Colin Potter
22   Posted 01/08/2007 at 14:07:40

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for the yes to Kirkby voters who are going on and on about plans for the loop,they are on show at St Georges Hall friday also reps from Bestway and the Lcc.Get down there and have a look and ask some questions about funding and any thing else you want to know about,instead of blindingly following Wyness’s and Kenwrights money motivated rhetoric.
Gerard Madden
23   Posted 02/08/2007 at 01:44:54

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Can we end this nonesense please that if we moved to the ’loop’ we would in some way be ’coming home’, yes St.Ruperts tower in Everton is on our badge and we are called Everton but our home for 115 years has been Walton and there’s a far better site sitting there in the heart of it - Walton Hall Park, if cllr Bradley came back with a proposal to keep us at our REAL home in Walton i’d consider changing my vote.
Phil
24   Posted 02/08/2007 at 16:29:12

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As far as I’m aware Bestway will have no involvement in the funding/building of a new stadium - they have only offered the land in exchange for land in some other part of the city.

Cllr Bradley has openly admitted he’s not prepared to saddle the taxpayer with a 50m debt.

So what does the ’Loop’ proposal actually offer?

There are plenty of attractive locations within Liverpool but until Everton can afford to buy a location and fund the building of the stadium they are all moot proposals.

Kirkby remains the only realistic option!!

I’m happy to be proved wrong and I hope Fridays meeting can provide some meaningful insight as to how viable the ’Loop’ proposition actually is but I remain very sceptical.
colin Riley
25   Posted 06/08/2007 at 20:00:46

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To Mike squires.You say you live in Wallasy and parking your car arround scotland road will be a nightmare logistically.Very possible but i must add its people like you why someone coming from miles away from this city cant get a space at the match cos your too selfish and downright lazy to get a train or bus or ferry.
We can build a giant car park under the stadium no problem.park by the canal at the eldonian area ,in the city if you wish.or better still if you live in a 30 mile radius.leave the bleeding car at home.you may even enjoy the experience of mixing with fello everton fans to and from our new home.By the roundhouse where we belong.NO TO KIRKBY FOR ME!
New Stadium
26   Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:33:12

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Colin Riley, many people in Wallasey and Birkenhead are closer to Liverpool Centre than most people in Liverpool.

The Loop site is dire. It is isolated (OK for a stadium though) and will require bridges to it over the tunnel entrance road. A 50,000 seater stadium? What a joke. EFC need 70,000. When EFC do well they flock in.

Better site needed like Garston Docks.


Need to do better.


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