COLUMNIST JIM HOURIGAN
Red Herrings and Ostriches
Comments (22) : First of all the Red Herrings, these are the ones being sold by LCC. Yes they are desperate to keep Everton in the City and would do anything to keep us. Well actually not quite anything ? what they won?t do is commit political suicide and offer anything to Everton (in financial terms), that they will not offer to the other side. They will not put up a single penny of ratepayers money for Everton to stay, they will make lots of promises of ?doing what they can? but they cannot and will not commit a penny of ratepayers money to Everton FC.
Imagine the outcry from all the Red ratepayers at Everton receiving land for free or at a reduced rate or any other financial inducements. Red ratepayers would take enormous and perverse delight in objecting and blocking attempts to support Everton without a similar commitment to LFC, and sadly they don?t need it anymore. What they will do is support Everton with encouraging noises, offers of collaborative working, offers to identify partners etc etc but most definitely NO MONEY.
So where does this leave a club that both sides of the debate agree has no money of its own? In simple terms LCC is a RED herring, it will do nothing to move us forward all it does it deflect and defer from what is quite clearly the biggest decision in my lifetime. I do not believe that they are part of the solution because they do not possess the wherewithal to be part of the solution.
Then there the Ostriches, the ones who think Goodison can be developed and turned into a stadium fit for the 21st Century. The reality is that the ground is landlocked with terrace streets and no amenities, we don?t all walk and travel by bus, more people now own cars than ever before and those numbers are increasing not decreasing ? FACT not fiction. People want more than a walk down ?dog shit? and ?litter strewn? streets to tacky corner shops and 60s chippies and pubs. They were great in the sixties, but folks that was 50 years ago, our tastes have changed and if yours haven?t then the word dinosaur also springs to mind.
Also the notion that we can alter the footprint and acquire living spaces and a school is plain nonsense. Have you ever seen the battle there is to close primary schools when they only have 20 or 30 pupils and the local council agrees to the closure? The parents and the local community unite and fight it all the way often going as far as Parliament and judicial enquiries. It takes years so what chance when even LCC has shown no appetite for school closure on the basis of providing better facilities and a new ground for Everton, and what price those pesky Red parents who would take great delight in putting a spanner in any Everton plans. There is little chance of anything within 10 years from my knowledge of Councils and planning, particularly if there is a strong and vocal opposition.
Everton need a ground for the 21st Century and that means not just upgraded facilities for the supporters in terms of seating, refreshments, safety, parking and viewpoints but also a stadium that can generate additional income from use of the ground for other purposes. Does anyone actually think that any large and successful company in Liverpool, or nearby, would hold a conference or invite people to stay in a hotel (if attached) in a stadium in the middle of the afore mentioned streets? Visitors from abroad coming to what? Looking at what?
I?m sorry folks take your heads out of the sand and see the world for what it is, and it?s no good saying I don?t subscribe to that view therefore I?m going to ignore it. The decision is hard enough without holding on to a picture of the past and then projecting it forward into some rose tinted view of the future, reality not fantasy.
Then I look at the proposals put forward for the Loop. What do I see? Well apart from a computer generated drawing that any ICT student doing A-Level could produce, I see yet another landlocked site, but this time instead of terrace streets we will be locked in by roads. So instead of having to suffer from dog shit we can all suffer from carbon monoxide poisoning.
We will still have next to no amenities that the club can profit from, little or no parking and also no stadium that will attract the levels of additional revenue required. Would I set up a conference in a stadium in the middle of a ring road with no parking, asking clients and customers to walk across bridges or god forbid through underpasses?
This however is the superficial aspect to this project, the key aspect is funding. Bestway would be ecstatic to get Everton because without us all they have is a plot of brownbelt that no body wants. Would they put a shopping centre in the middle of these roads? Would they put an office block in there and get good ground rent? I think the answer to both is no. But what they will do is charge a hefty sum for the privilege of Everton building their stadium there, and as we all seem to agree Everton have no money, so please all those putting this forward explain where we get approximately £150M when according to those questioning the figures for Kirkby the idea that we have to find £50M is also beyond us. Nobody in today?s world gives anything away free, including Tesco, the only question is how much would this proposal really cost? And I don?t think anyone knows but I reckon it?s a hell of a lot more than Kirkby.
So now we come to the crux of the matter for me: do we move to Kirkby or not? As I see the debate, there are lots and lots of red herrings but it boils down to one fundamental thing and one thing only, should we move out of the city?
The arguments against Tesco are irrelevant ? if it was them proposing the Loop no body would give a toss, the rebuilding of Goodison is a non-starter and all the other issues are red herrings. Whisper it quietly but is the real reason people don?t want to move because of the supposed one up the red shite will have over us?
Well whisper it very quietly again folks but we are second best to them at present, and have been for a damn good proportion of my life. If we continue to live our lives worried about them when will we ever break away from under their shadow? If everything we do is related to them then we will never progress. We?ve all heard the light bulb joke but there?s a grain of truth in it folks, we seem preoccupied with them instead of thinking about us and not giving a toss about them until matchday.
I know many of you will be screaming that we are objecting for financial reasons, of for the long-term good of the club, but search your souls and be honest and can you say that your not worried what your red mates will say. And here?s the really painful bit, if they take the piss, tough; if they go on about one city, tough ? all that really matters is that Everton FC progress and develop and take their place at the top of the tree. I don?t give a shit if they are second or twenty second, yes I?ll take the piss when we beat them and suffer when we lose but if we are standing up for ourselves and making our own destiny then I don?t care about them.
No I don?t live in the City, but my dad was born and raised on Scotland Road so I understand how painful it is, but I want a future for Everton FC not a future for Liverpool's second team. So I will vote for Kirkby and a new future for Everton.
Reader Comments
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But where do you put forward the case FOR Kirkby? Where’s your analysis of that. Silence. If Kirkby is so fantastic let’s hear about it.
I agree with 90% of the content of your article but don?t agree with your summation.
You are quite correct when you state that ?Bestway would be ecstatic to get Everton?, because without an Everton stadium as a catalyst, no additional regeneration of the area could place (which Bestway plan to be part of) and, therefore, no additional revenue for Bestway.
Similarly, Tesco ARE ecstatic to have Everton on board, because without them they will not be building the largest UK Supermarket in Kirkby.
Let?s be quite clear, both Bestway and Tesco are in business to look after their shareholders. Neither are charities, and anything they provide for a third party (EFC) would be considered as an investment against future income.
The role of both Liverpool CC and Knowsley BC is only that of facilitators and neither will provide funding to EFC, nor should they. LCC will prosper from the regeneration of the area, and Knowsley will gain from a regeneration of their Town Centre and increased employment.
So the argument comes down to financial partners. Tesco would be considered as a ?heavyweight? partner who have had 12/18 months to come up with a financial plan (although there are some questions on the numbers) and, without doubt, would deliver a new football stadium as part of their overall plan for their Superstore.
Bestway are ?lightweight? by comparison. By my reckoning they have only been in the equation for 5/6 weeks and are inevitably playing catch-up. They have created a graphic ?concept design? to show that a 50,000 seater stadium can fit on the site (only for a ?senior stadium analyst? to rubbish the concept on the Everton website). There are, of course, many questions to be answered regarding car parking, access, safety etc. on the ?Loop? site, but Bestway obviously believe that they can find answers to these questions (but in 5/6 weeks).
What interests me is that they have employed HOK Sport (an international sports architect company) and WSP Group (an international engineering company), both ?heavyweight? players in their specialist fields. I don?t believe that Bestway would be investing in these companies if they did not believe that they (Bestway) could not provide a financial model that was not at least equivalent to that which Tesco are providing, and acceptable to Everton Football Club.
Maybe they are not as ?lightweight? as they first appear.
It’s all publicity people and Everton CANNOT AFFORD TO GET INVOLVED.
1)State of the art stadium - four characterless stands in a retail park with no design merit.
2)Ability to add capacity - so has Goodison, you just add a tier to the Park End.
3)Lots of space - what are you going to do? Run around, star jumps with your mates or play hunt the pub.
4)Lots of parking - 1,000 spaces were quoted. That’s not enough for the away fans alone.
5)Easy to build on site - well, it’s flat and empty so that’s hard to disagree with.
6)Can generate revenue from other uses - concerts, conferences? I think new Anfield will soak up the prestige stuff and our commercial team don’t seem to be able to sell our own shirts never mind anything else.
7)Good transport links and access -I can’t wait to see this. It’s near a motorway and, er, that’s it.
8)Only five miles from Goodison - what difference does that make? Goodison will be flattened and won’t exist. There will be nothing actually remaining in Liverpool of Everton FC.
9)Very powerful business partner in Tesco - Tesco aren’t actually putting any money into Everton. All they want is a supermarket in Kirkby. Or can you tell me different?
10)Oh, and very attractive funding - the funding doesn’t add up. We are paying for the stadium and Tesco will ask their partners to offer a discount. Doesn’t smack of a high quality stadium does it? Sounds like one on the cheap. The land value quoted as £50m is only a paper asset that we might be able to borrow against.
So, Neil, you’ll have to do a bit better than that. Problem is you can’t because there are no actual facts released to back up your arguments. Let’s here some detail or see the feasibility reports or the business case rather than you reciting the empty rhetoric contained in that glossy brochure!
As Jim states, most are already decided (as it appears you are) and are not going to be convinced by any argument opposing their current view. Therefore, saying you will have to do better than that is a pointless statement, as better will still not be good enough for some of us.
However, at least he didn’t end his article with an order to vote YES, just a statement that he would be voting YES. I respect his frankness, and some of his points are valid, as are some of yours. Either way, neither of you will convince the other to change your minds.
Looking for another sneaky away win tomorrow! COYB
"2)Ability to add capacity - so has Goodison, you just add a tier to the Park End."
Come on, that’s not a valid statement. Pro Kirkby or anti Kirkby, your just plucking stuff out of the air now.
I guess we are all reaching the end of productive debate on the ground move now. We’ve all made our points, made up our minds, and are going to have to agree to disagree.
Let’s all agree that signing Manny is bloody fantastic, and enjoy hopefully another great performance tomorrow.
Can’t disagree with that! A bit more quality added to an already solid outfit should help us in Europe! (can’t wait for the draw)
I know you agree with that Si.
COYB
Be warned those who have voted for Kirkby, you will regret it as long as you live.
Make no mistake your vote constitutes absolute betrayal
why would an evertonian stay away from wherever the club builds a new stadium?
why would the ’conveyor belt’ stop?
The traitors are the fans who stay away...
are you going to stay away Joey?
1) I have faith in those whose charge it is to get the outcome for Everton Football Club on this crucial issue(yes, there are conspiracy theories aplenty, but I don’t believe them.)
2) Kirkby is going be massively regenerated before we move to the New Stadium...it will be a much more attractive area than Walton or Everton wards.
3) Kirkby is as scouse as it gets, fitting for EFC.
4) EFC is the Pride of Merseyside and will remain as such in Kirkby.
5) David Moyes supports Kirkby and we owe it to him to support him.
6) On balance, I feel sure that Everton will be best placed to maintain progress through the Kirkby Project and join the ’big four’, replacing Arsenal or the shite!
7) Given the dubious foreign ownership of many of the top clubs we are falling behind financially just now, but the stadium move will hugely increase our financial resources without having to sell our soul. This will make us very well placed once the Premiership foreign money house of cards collapses, as it is likely to do eventually.
8) EFC has historically been an innovator, this move gets us innovating again.
9) The move to Kirkby will put us in a batter position to negotiate on our terms any inward investment (rather than the possible fire sale if we stay put).
10) Knowsley Council are a supportive Merseyside Council with which to work, unlike LCC.
11) Kirkby is only about 3.5 miles away from GP, 10 minutes FFS! That is fine!!
12) Kirkby is a brave new world for the ludditesm but overall it is clearly the right move for our pround and glorious football Club...Here’s to a bright new future in Kirkby.
re; Kirkby 150? for 50m? question.
stadium costs 50m to barr construction to build. tesco negotiate this down from normally 75m cost as barr have a vested interest in heavy discount since they do ALL tesco contracts.
25-40m on top is from us for internal fit out..seats,boxes,lomunges, offices etc etd Wyness says from goodison,sponsorship and 15m ish loan we will get this.
land is worth 0, but once whole development is up it would increase in value to nearlly 50m as it wouldnt be a brownfield site anymore it would be slap bang in the middle of a 500,000 sq/ft town center.
Thus new stadium would have a commercial value of around 150m.
My figures are probably marginally up for debate, bit thats how it is derived to the best of my knowledge.
good article btw.
However let me make another couple of points. Firstly we have all known since the first Johnson vote that we had to move from Goodison. That was before the present glut of foreign money and the Sky bonanza. The Kings Dock vote very much followed the first, both with overwhelming majorities to move from GP. I believe that the votes were so much in favour of a move substantially because we expected to move within the City. The move to Kirkby for some is a ’move to far’ and whatever arguments put forward it would not be supported purely on the grounds that it is out of the City. After all we all supported the move proposed by the board for Kings Dock on the basis that the guardians of the club must have done their homework and would not be proposing such a thing if it was not in Everton’s best interests - why do we now challenge and question those same people’s judgement and rationale? - because its out of the City !!!!
Then the point about exclusivity, as I understand it that deal only bound Everton not to talk to others, it did not stop any other business or group working on alternatives and then presenting them to Everton at the end of the exclusivity period. So why has nobody done anything substantial up until the last month or so? Is it because now that more detail is available there seems to be an almost inevitable feel about the proposals because of the way the club has backed them? I am not and never have been a Kenwright / Wyness / Moyes sycophant (check my previous postings), but I do acknowledge that these 3 people are charged with making decisions for us all. I hope and pray that they have got it right, and yes I cannot say with 100% certainty that it is right, the same way that none can say with certainty they are wrong. The thing that sways it for me is a genuine belief that they have considered all the alternatives, that they do have the clubs interests at heart and that at the present time this is the only foreseeable future for Everton. Yes we can sit back and wait and see what’s around the corner, but how long do you wait? 2 years 5 years 20 years and who decides? imagine a ballot on how long we should sit and do nothing!!! Is Kirkby the best option? It’s the only option!!! the rest are non starters as is doing nothing. Would I have preferred to stay in the City? Yes, but we can’t for all the reasons stated countlessly by others and I for one will not sit around and watch and listen to pointless debates and discussions about fruitless options. Read the latest Everton response to the Loop, however as you probably won’t accept their findings we come round full circle. Those that do not want to move out of the City will find any reason and excuse not to, people like me see a future for Everton with these proposals.
Sticky, Jim didn’t order anyone to vote YES. Likewise I didn’t order anyone to vote NO. I asked the YES voters on here to put the case FOR Kirkby rather than just criticising the other options put forward. I’m not convinved by the response, but you probably wouldn’t expect me to be.
Tony, all I have is opinions because the club haven’t released any feasibility reports or anything else other than the brochure and Wyness’s comments. That’s one of my points - I’d like to see some detail from all this analysis the club had done. The criticism made by the club of the Loop and Goodison redevelopment doesn’t stand up to scrutiny precisely because it’s not independent.
Jim, your last two points don’t make sense to me. First you state that "After all we all supported the move proposed by the board for Kings Dock on the basis that the guardians of the club must have done their homework and would not be proposing such a thing if it was not in Everton?s best interests". How can that be so when King’s Dock turned out to be undeliverable / unaffordable? Couldn’t the same happen with Kirkby?
Second, you say "Read the latest Everton response to the Loop, however as you probably won?t accept their findings we come round full circle." Damn right. The response is based on ’analysis’ by firms with a vested interest in Kirkby going ahead.
I hope that whatever the outcome of the vote that we benefit as Evertonians and as a club, and retain the sense of community that doubtless we all feel very strongly.
Neil, what on earth are you talking about; good transport links!have you ever tried to get to Kirkby on a Sunday?
I’ve been reading many submissions, both for and against. What I find alarming, is that a lot of Evertonians who say yes to Kirkby do not seem to want to look at any detailed alternative.
The Bestway proposal might end up to be unworkable. There again it might just offer a workable alternative. What disturbs me is that irt is being condemned before full details are seen. I think it was Jim who said why hadn’t they developed their proposals while EFC were talking to Knowsley and Tesco’s.Who knows!! the fact is, they are prepared to submit detailed proposals. I read somewher that it would take about six months. For the biggest decision in Everton’s history, I would have thought it is worth waiting to see if we have a chance of staying in our city.
I think we can rest assured that transport companies are watching developments carefully waiting to move in as of course it is an opportunity for them to make money too.
Likewise around the stadium would be developed too no doubt with bars and pubs etc, some people make it sound like Kirkby is out in the country. as a Driving Instructor in Liverpool I know all areas well and if it wasn’t for the M57 you would not notice ’leaving’ Liverpool and entering Kirkby.
As for the suggestion by some that fans will stop going if they move, I think they are letting the moment rule their rational thought.
Once an Evertonian always an Evertonian.......4......5......6 miles or whatever it is won’t alter that.
For the irrelevant arguments surrounding TESCO, please refer to the text TESCOPOLY, there are some belter quotes from Terry Leahy that will makw you feel really secure, see you at the Man U game!
Ed
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1 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:39:07
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