Phantom Arguments
By Paul Tran : 08/10/2007 : 
Comments (11) :
Here we are again. We're playing some dire stuff at the moment and our spirit is getting us through some games. Some of us have been making the same comments about Moyes, win lose or draw. Great at motivating average players, consistently found wanting in getting the best out of better players, severely limited tactically.
Comments (11) : I want Everton to be genuinely successful and I'd like Moyes to be the one who gets us there, but my eyes are consistently telling me otherwise.
We can have a debate, or we can trade playground insults. I watched the 1985 team, we played some hoofball, we had some very tough players, we ground results out, we won ugly. We also actually had the option of players who could pass and move, who could go past defenders, strikers who got service and used it. The team also had a consistent shape, regardless of who played.
The basic principles are the same now. Pass, move, look up, blue shirt. After five years in a job, I would expect any manager to have his team, playing his tactics in a team with recognisable shape. That's not happening.
I actually felt sorry for Moyes in the summer, as I thought the club were holding back on spending. However, the more he spends, the more confused and lop-sided the team looks. Instead of telling me that I think the 85 team played like Brazil, or that I want Smith back as manager, or that I don't recognise Moyes' achievements, or that any successful Everton team was 'lucky', why not join in some reasoned debate?
Let's start with someone explaining how a football manager can spend over five years secure in his job, with lots of money spent in the last two years and still have only one passer in the team, still be tactically limited, still have strikers with good records who can't score for us.
My eyes tell me that Moyes is a good , honest, up & at 'em Wilkinson-style British coach. Just what we needed five years ago, not what we need now. The question is, can/will he change, or are we so unambitious that we are happy to float between 5th and 12th and watch hoofball?
I know he's not going anywhere, but I promise you, you'll get tired of it eventually!
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Personally I dont give a shit about the style of football played by Everton, its results that count.
They can play hoof-ball all day long for all I care, so long as they win.
They can play hoof-ball all day long for all I care, so long as they win.
While I agree with much of what you say , Paul , I believe it is grossly unfair to consider Howard Wilkinson along with David Moyes.
Surely one glaring difference is that Wilkinson , grumpy old ugly guy without a trace of charisma that he was , did manage to win a Championship with Leeds.
David Moyes is monumentaly unlikely ever to get the chance to lead a top side in England and as such will never be able to match Wilkinson’s achievements.
Mr Moyes has never won anything in his managerial career but he has one great attraction to our present chairman and that is important.
I believe we will not be relegated this season and I would be very surprised if relegation becomes a threat throughout the remainder if David Moyes’ present contract unless we have to sell a range of top players as we did during Smith’s tenure in order to prevent the bank from foreclosing.
There is far more money in the game these days and keeping Everton in the Premier will always be a far more important target for messrs Kenwright and Moyes than the ’fantasy aim’ of winning trophies.
Surely one glaring difference is that Wilkinson , grumpy old ugly guy without a trace of charisma that he was , did manage to win a Championship with Leeds.
David Moyes is monumentaly unlikely ever to get the chance to lead a top side in England and as such will never be able to match Wilkinson’s achievements.
Mr Moyes has never won anything in his managerial career but he has one great attraction to our present chairman and that is important.
I believe we will not be relegated this season and I would be very surprised if relegation becomes a threat throughout the remainder if David Moyes’ present contract unless we have to sell a range of top players as we did during Smith’s tenure in order to prevent the bank from foreclosing.
There is far more money in the game these days and keeping Everton in the Premier will always be a far more important target for messrs Kenwright and Moyes than the ’fantasy aim’ of winning trophies.
Another question would be if we got rid of Moyes who would come in? Is there a manager out there who can get a side to play good football with another managers players and would we be able to attract this sort of manager? there Spurs post becoming available is imminent and would probably be the prefered choice of any European manager. I think there may have been points in Moyes’ Everton career where he may have been sacked if Everton had a decent enough replacement in mind.
Fair point Dutch. If you’re happy to pay £30 to watch hoofball, with little prospect of entertainment, cup runs and trophies, that’s your call. I just think that if we want to progress further towards the top four, we need more tactically than we have now.
Stephen, every time someone suggests an alternative manager, they are told ’he’s no good’ or ’he wouldn’t come to Everton.’ Managers like O’Neill who has a habit of winning promotion and trophies as a player and manager with smaller clubs than Everton are apparently ’washed up has-beens’.
With the top-notch non-British managers, the question should be ’why wouldn’t they come to Everton?’ We are told the club is on an excellent financial footing, with go-ahead commercial management, we have great support likely to be increased by the move to Kirkby (if only by larger away followings!).
The consensus seems to be that there is no manager on the planet for Everton other than Moyes. What would happen if he resigned..? Someone else would come in and take over and the club would move on.
The real answer is that Kenwright & Moyes suit each other. One is happy to keep Everton in the Premiership, the other will never get a bigger club. Both men mean well and have done good work, both men lack the ability and genuine ambition to take us further.
Stephen, every time someone suggests an alternative manager, they are told ’he’s no good’ or ’he wouldn’t come to Everton.’ Managers like O’Neill who has a habit of winning promotion and trophies as a player and manager with smaller clubs than Everton are apparently ’washed up has-beens’.
With the top-notch non-British managers, the question should be ’why wouldn’t they come to Everton?’ We are told the club is on an excellent financial footing, with go-ahead commercial management, we have great support likely to be increased by the move to Kirkby (if only by larger away followings!).
The consensus seems to be that there is no manager on the planet for Everton other than Moyes. What would happen if he resigned..? Someone else would come in and take over and the club would move on.
The real answer is that Kenwright & Moyes suit each other. One is happy to keep Everton in the Premiership, the other will never get a bigger club. Both men mean well and have done good work, both men lack the ability and genuine ambition to take us further.
I thought your topic was fairly balanced - You were doing well there Paul tran then you summed up what exactly you were thinking in the final paragraph of your last comment. I dont think you can accuse Davd Moyes of lacking genuine ambition when he has said from day one he wants to bring European football back to this club. He has, and is still a relatively young manager who seems to have a good understanding of the game, although tactically can sometimes be naive.
I would much prefer the dead heads on here to say what they mean rather than arse about and fill pages on nonsensical analysis on a job that they personally would never have the intelligence to do in a million years. David Moyes has made mistakes, of that there is no doubt, but in the scheme of things there are everton people glittered throughout our history who have nearly run this club in to the ground.
I know Everton will survive without Moyes, and I know Moyes will survive without Everton, the thing which stands to lose more? I beleive it will ultimately be us. What unsettles me is that some fans are beginning to get a little tunnel visioned, not looking at what is happening around us. We are struggling at the moment but look at where we are, still in every competition and still competing. The style of play is terrible at the moment but judge the fucking style of play when we have a fully fit side. At the moment we are coping with what we have as best we can. Alls we can do is stay positive until we can finally say that our team at full strength is not good enough.
I would much prefer the dead heads on here to say what they mean rather than arse about and fill pages on nonsensical analysis on a job that they personally would never have the intelligence to do in a million years. David Moyes has made mistakes, of that there is no doubt, but in the scheme of things there are everton people glittered throughout our history who have nearly run this club in to the ground.
I know Everton will survive without Moyes, and I know Moyes will survive without Everton, the thing which stands to lose more? I beleive it will ultimately be us. What unsettles me is that some fans are beginning to get a little tunnel visioned, not looking at what is happening around us. We are struggling at the moment but look at where we are, still in every competition and still competing. The style of play is terrible at the moment but judge the fucking style of play when we have a fully fit side. At the moment we are coping with what we have as best we can. Alls we can do is stay positive until we can finally say that our team at full strength is not good enough.
THANKS FOR BRIGHTENING MY DAY UP WITH MORE SHITE
Danny,you say judge the style of play when we have a fully fit side.The problem there Danny ,is that we had fully fit sides loads of times last season,and the football for most of it was dire to say the least.Moyes has brought some excellent players to the club.Thing is though we don’t play like a team that has some quality in the side,and I think it is down to Moyes’ negative tactics.
Dutch,you should be ashamed to call yourself dutch making coments like you would watch hoff ball all day as long as we win.Win fucking what exactly?the odd few games before we loose a few more?Danny,you say we would be the biggest loosers if moyes went,why?you say the style is terrible at the moment,fucking right it is,but think,hasnt it always been terrible under moyes,only now he has better players than ever and yet still nothing changes.The simple fact is its nothing to do with personnel,injuries fucking luck or whatever you as a tunnel vision supporter wants to call it,it down to how the managers principles are on how he wants a team to play.Moyes has got us stable,now to make us winners and consistant he wont,its just not his style.just think we finished 4th with a awful goals for record.The reason not because we didnt have a top goalscorer,but because the style of play didnt get us making enough chances.I suggest you listen to your own words,stop being tunnel visioned just because everton is the team you support you would overlook things,and also in your words look whats happening around you,then you may see how football can be played.Remember,football is a simple game,moyes doesnt allow it at everton though.
I disagree with the view that this is somehow the make or break season for Moyes unless of course we crash & burn on all fronts. Already we are hearing the "Look what happened to Boro, Blackburn et. when they qualified for Europe, their league form suffered" arguments being put forward.
I don’t think Moyes position will come under serious scrutiny until he has brought in another quality addition or two to the midfield. Then it will be time for him to deliver but I think as far as this season goes Moyes position is pretty secure.
I don’t think Moyes position will come under serious scrutiny until he has brought in another quality addition or two to the midfield. Then it will be time for him to deliver but I think as far as this season goes Moyes position is pretty secure.
The anti Moyes cult on here remind me so much of Monty Python?s life of Brian? The Tony Marsh?s & Co?s of this world who hate Everton..it?s board,manager and loyal fans more than they hate Liverpool !
?Are you the Judean People?s Front ??...?Feck off..we?re the People?s Front for Judea...we hate the Judean People?s front !?
Like a messianic cult which split off from the main religion,these sad people live in an eternal time warp..waiting for the true messiah to come and lead the people to the chosen land...Railing against the heretics and promising eternal damnation on those who refuse to follow the true faith.
Touchingly..the Blue Meanies don?t really have an alternative messiah although seem to share a belief that a messiah from a foreign land will come across the water and lead them to the land of milk and honey.
I know....sad isn?t it !
?Are you the Judean People?s Front ??...?Feck off..we?re the People?s Front for Judea...we hate the Judean People?s front !?
Like a messianic cult which split off from the main religion,these sad people live in an eternal time warp..waiting for the true messiah to come and lead the people to the chosen land...Railing against the heretics and promising eternal damnation on those who refuse to follow the true faith.
Touchingly..the Blue Meanies don?t really have an alternative messiah although seem to share a belief that a messiah from a foreign land will come across the water and lead them to the land of milk and honey.
I know....sad isn?t it !
lose the derby and the pressure will be on mr moyes.lose to luton in the cup then the fans will really be on your back.poor form in the league and in europe and david may not be with us for the opening of the jan transfer window.
Many years ago,as an apsiring young coach who had just gained his first coaching badge, I approached an older coach who was successful in winning trophies and had a reputation as an effective man manager and tactician and asked him what the secret of his success was. He told me that all he did was respect the talents of the players he had at his disposal and built his playing system and match tactics around them. In essence, his system and his match tactics recognised and matched the capabilities of his players . It was the best advice I was ever given and, thankfully, I listened to it.
To me, this is where David Moyes consistently gets it wrong. His philosophy clearly is that he has developed his system and his players have to fit with it. Given that his system is basically a defensive one, he will never get the best out of attacking players and will continue to misuse their capabilities and blunt their effectiveness in matches.
Like them or not, Davies and Beattie are but two examples of this. If you can recall, Moyes chased Davies for two years before signing him and then played him in a system that blunted whatever capabilities he had - those capabilities that made Moyes chase him in the first place. Ditto with Beattie and, even more scarily, as the early signs (and I know they are only early signs) indicate, possibly even with Yakubu.
The bottom line is that until Moyes wakes up and accepts that he has to respect the abilities of his players and allow them some licence in an attacking sense, he will continue to waste money on talented players whom he will turn into Moyes clones; and he will continue to recruit and ruin the confidence of talented palyers and play a form of football that is the subject to the justifable criticism and anger of loyal Evertonians.
If he really wants to achieve success with Everton, as he claims he does, Mr Moyes has to have the team playing attractive and responsible attacking football and one of his first actions towards achieving should be to allow the player licence to use their abilities and also bring in appropriate coaching staff who have an attacking bent and can coach our players to play football rather than the hoofball his current crew are serving up.
To me, this is where David Moyes consistently gets it wrong. His philosophy clearly is that he has developed his system and his players have to fit with it. Given that his system is basically a defensive one, he will never get the best out of attacking players and will continue to misuse their capabilities and blunt their effectiveness in matches.
Like them or not, Davies and Beattie are but two examples of this. If you can recall, Moyes chased Davies for two years before signing him and then played him in a system that blunted whatever capabilities he had - those capabilities that made Moyes chase him in the first place. Ditto with Beattie and, even more scarily, as the early signs (and I know they are only early signs) indicate, possibly even with Yakubu.
The bottom line is that until Moyes wakes up and accepts that he has to respect the abilities of his players and allow them some licence in an attacking sense, he will continue to waste money on talented players whom he will turn into Moyes clones; and he will continue to recruit and ruin the confidence of talented palyers and play a form of football that is the subject to the justifable criticism and anger of loyal Evertonians.
If he really wants to achieve success with Everton, as he claims he does, Mr Moyes has to have the team playing attractive and responsible attacking football and one of his first actions towards achieving should be to allow the player licence to use their abilities and also bring in appropriate coaching staff who have an attacking bent and can coach our players to play football rather than the hoofball his current crew are serving up.
Look, why can?t all you anti-Moyes MF shut the f**k up and call a spade a spade.
Barcodes, we played well and we lost because our defenders made some blatant and glaring mistakes.
Our tactics were good and our positioning were good and our passings were good. Our substitution was good too.
There was nothing wrong that Moyes had done in the game.
Mistakes came from the defence and Osman.
Without the mistakes, we would?ve gone ahead and captured the game hands down.
stop all this blame on Moyes crap cause it?s making me depressed and feel like taking a pump gun and pull a Dirty Harry on the rest of you Anti Moyes M.F.
In fact, all the games we lost was due to stupid mistakes made by our defence which was scarce last season.
Someone needs to give a swift kick in the ass to all our defenders for f**cking up.
oh, and last advice to Moyes, keep Baines where he is and try replacing Yobo with Jageilka, at least on a subs basis.
Yobo screwing up big time.
Barcodes, we played well and we lost because our defenders made some blatant and glaring mistakes.
Our tactics were good and our positioning were good and our passings were good. Our substitution was good too.
There was nothing wrong that Moyes had done in the game.
Mistakes came from the defence and Osman.
Without the mistakes, we would?ve gone ahead and captured the game hands down.
stop all this blame on Moyes crap cause it?s making me depressed and feel like taking a pump gun and pull a Dirty Harry on the rest of you Anti Moyes M.F.
In fact, all the games we lost was due to stupid mistakes made by our defence which was scarce last season.
Someone needs to give a swift kick in the ass to all our defenders for f**cking up.
oh, and last advice to Moyes, keep Baines where he is and try replacing Yobo with Jageilka, at least on a subs basis.
Yobo screwing up big time.
Jimmy Hoffa: Good players and teams make you make mistakes...PS whats the view like from your motorway support.
Billy Piper: so we?re never going to get a Messiah, eh and we?ll have to put up with the Romans for ever will we. As any good straight man will, I?ll feed you the line right on cue!...? What have the Romans ever done for us?? again with the PS, I prefare the new girl to you in Dr. Who.
For my opinion on Moyes see my comment to John Holmes? column.
Billy Piper: so we?re never going to get a Messiah, eh and we?ll have to put up with the Romans for ever will we. As any good straight man will, I?ll feed you the line right on cue!...? What have the Romans ever done for us?? again with the PS, I prefare the new girl to you in Dr. Who.
For my opinion on Moyes see my comment to John Holmes? column.
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1 Posted 08/10/2007 at 14:51:36
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I also said that whether he likes it or not this season would be his biggest & most important with every game seeming like a must win.
So far he is just about keeping his head above water, if we had of lost against Metalist things would of become bad, he didn’t. So next test is getting us up the league with a few wins before we head back into UEFA, and if he does that he would have another derby win and our position looks a lot better.
If he doesn’t and we slip out of top 10 with the football we are playing then things may have to change, I’m eternally grateful to DM for the transformation he has done on this club but its got to be a continual improvement & we seem to have hit a glass ceiling.
I hope Moyes see’s what we are watching & is banking on return of Cahill, Grav, Vaughn to lift squad & improve. But if he doesn’t then who knows............