COLUMNIST JOHN HOLMES
Not a stagnation but a new transition
By John Holmes : 10/10/2007 : 
Comments (65) :
Comments (65) : In some ways it?s difficult to believe we?re having the debate again. The sense of déjà vu is inescapable as once again the comments pour in as to whether the manager has outstayed his welcome. Personally I agree with those who see the debate as academic given the reality that Moyes is not going to be leaving the club anytime in the near future, but, with the weight of submissions suggesting that shouldn?t be the case, I feel someone should stick their neck out to, if not defend him, at least argue that the time for his departure is not upon us.
It?s senseless covering the old ground, we all know the arguments about Shrewsbury, Krøldrup, Champions League qualification, stability, differing aspirations etc. For all but the most dogmatic the argument is about:
- Whether Moyes has taken the club as far as he can;
- Whether the current, undeniably ugly, brand of football befits a club of our stature;
- Whether that style aids us in achieving our ambitions;
- Whether, given more time/money/fit players, things will improve.
As to whether the disjointed percentage game that Everton have been producing befits the club, that?s a matter of opinion, and rose-tinting, on Everton?s history. With little certainty about the consequences of allowing Moyes to continue it?s difficult to make a coherent case either way as to whether he should be given the opportunity. Maybe that?s why so many contributors have resorted to brow-beating those who oppose them.
Last season put to bed any notion that Moyes?s previous successes were a flash in the pan. It was neither pretty nor spectacular, but he efficiently led us into Europe and, to build on the squad that had achieved it, was finally rewarded (if somewhat tardily) with the resources to keep us there. There ended the first of the much-vaunted ?five-year-plans?. It appeared to be based on creating a tight-knit team with a strong work ethic and combative approach to compensate for the lack of finesse that only money can buy. At the same time it aimed to invest in talented youth to build the foundations of something better. Overall, most would regard it as a success of long-term planning.
This season Moyes has embarked on the difficult bit ? five-year-plan number two. With no public statement it?s guesswork as to what it contains but, if Moyes wants to appease the fans, it should involve using the proceeds and foundations that are now in place to create something wholly different. Hard work can take you a long way in life and it?s a good thing to instil into anyone, despite the claims of those who say the suggestion drove Fernandes away. However, if you look at the best teams, they all work hard ? working hard is not enough. To succeed at the highest level, you need both the workman and the craftsman and you need them throughout the team. To a fair extent Moyes has moved towards this. The workhorses epitomised by Weir, Stubbs, Kilbane and Carsley have departed or been given a much-reduced role and, at it?s strongest, our team should resemble a healthy mixture of technique and graft. Yet, a feeling persists of an identity crisis.
Those who have watched recent matches will have noticed a marked reduction in the number of long-balls, they?re still there but fewer in number, and there?s a willingness to try and play something approaching football. Unfortunately it?s like watching fledglings trying to soar; more often than not they fall flat on their face. Watching archetypal ?solid pros? like Neville and Hibbert try to assist Arteta in picking apart a defence is like watching an elephant help a sword-swallower ? inevitably painful. Watching Pineaar and Yakubu trying to mix their craft with the work ethic the rest of the team play to must leave them somewhat embarrassed at their limitations.
The balance just hasn?t been struck yet for how to move from plan 1 to plan 2. Too many of the signings are too far on the side of technique without complementing the (necessary for future success) graft of those already present. Baines is perhaps the only new signing displaying the right combination, although even he seems reluctant and unable to mix the two consistently.
This season was the one we all looked to in the hope of seeing something more. It was the year that the young players Moyes invested in would assert themselves over the stalwarts who led the revolution. At the moment they aren?t doing it. Yobo and Lescott seem unsure of themselves without Stubbs? guidance. McFadden still can?t resist the immature flourishes which cost us possession and Arteta still struggles to look the part away from home. Others are affected by injury and inconsistent form and in general it seems that plan number two just isn?t ready to come to fruition and we might have to exhibit a little patience.
So, returning to the initial question of whether Moyes has reached his limit. No, I don?t think he has. I think he?s stuck in a transitional phase of turning his initial formula for stabilising Everton into one for leading Everton to success. Those who suggest he only knows one way to play and can?t go further neglect the reality that that ?one way? was perhaps the primary reason we are in a position to aspire to more and that moving from it to something better was always going to be a struggle and take time, just as it took time and inconsistency to convincingly render Everton a top 10 (or 8 or 6 depending on your perspective) side. If you think he can?t do it, fair enough, but at least give him a chance to prove you wrong.
A timescale is difficult to construct as there are so many different measures of success but, if the same arguments are persisting on the same ground this time next season then Moyes?s cards may indeed be marked. However, if the likes of Arteta, Yobo, Lescott, Cahill, Baines and Johnson can start to lead Everton without reliance on Stubbs and Carsley to steady the ship; if Moyes can start to balance craftsmanship and workmanship a little more evenly; if these can be translated into results, then we can feel that we have a manager who has more to give.
Moyes made a success of his first period at the club and a very definite line has to be drawn to move into a second period. In order to do so, however, he needs to be given time to prove his aptitude at a new challenge rather than judging him for the way he undertook the old challenge.
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John Holmes;Thank you,a good,thoughtful article.
Wow...well played.
I oscillate between the sides of this arguement, and I think you might be on the verge of fulling pushing me to the side of "Stick with him." I have always liked Moyes and the work ethic he has instilled, but I was (am) not sure he can take us past where we are. Your reasoning sits very well with me.
Is this officially "Calm and Reasoned Day" on Toffeeweb?
I oscillate between the sides of this arguement, and I think you might be on the verge of fulling pushing me to the side of "Stick with him." I have always liked Moyes and the work ethic he has instilled, but I was (am) not sure he can take us past where we are. Your reasoning sits very well with me.
Is this officially "Calm and Reasoned Day" on Toffeeweb?
finally....
Definitely a well reasoned argument highlighting the concerns that I’m sure most of us feel. We have to see whether Moyes has the ability and imagination to carry on his good work. And anyway who else is there?
A good article (by which I mean I agree with it I suppose) - measured and constructive. What is perhaps frustrating is that we looked the part sometimes last season especially when Fernandes was playing. It is noticeable (to me at least) that Arteta is happier to pass simply to some players whereas when others are available he hangs on, sometimes to the team’s detriment. It is also ironic that the players I think he passes to with confidence, Osman, McFadden, Pienaar, are the footballers who are always the butt of disparaging comments, especially by the critical majority(?) on here. Players who are prepared to take a chance, do the unexpected, try to take a man on, have a shot at goal, seem to be the ones who are considered weaknesses in the team, presumably beacuse they do not succeed 100% of the time. Yet Moyes always wants a sample of these in, but is not confident of putting them all in at the expense of the athletes, the more limited footbalers, who provide the muscle which is considered de rigueur for the modern game. Is there not a contradiction here? To effect the transition, Everton need to start punishing some (by definition weaker) teams with 5 or 6 goals. To achieve this requires using more of the footballers rather than fewer. Holding midfielder(s) may still be necessary against the top five or six teams but they are not the answer against the Derbys and Sunderlands of this season who will sit back against us now at Goodison. I can’t help but feel that we have still to see the best of our lightweights in a side which is confident giving and receiving the ball. But we cannot then get on their, or Moyes’ back, if it backfires on the odd occasion. As John points out, transition is difficult, and that means sometimes having the courage to fail.
I still cannot believe that people on here really do doubt DM’s ability. OK he is not Wenger or Mourinho (thank God). But with the possible exceptions of Fat Sam, Hughes and Harry there’s no other manager in the Prem close to him. We have progressed massively under his guidance and have a squad that is mostly young and has genuine potential. Roll on the next 5 years.
I think the problem Peter is that Moyes is working from a base of having a workmanlike team, thus any skillful players introduced must have some workmanlike qualities in order to fit in. On top of this we could fill the team with Osman’s, Pineaars and McFadden and we’d play attractive mid-table football with the occasional good season. Or we could fill it with Nevilles, Carsleys and Stubbs and play ugly mid-table football with the occasional good season. The challenge is to find players who can do both. We have some, we need more and we need to start to tune the team to their style more. Players with skill but no graft are no more use than those with graft but not skill, in fact they’re less use because they don’t fit well into the team.
excellent article john. i for one was very much guilty of throwing my toys out of the pram after the mess that was the metalist games. however, if everton’s progress over the next five years is sustained at a rate relative to that made since moyes arrived at the club then we’ve every chance of him producing a successful side playing the type of football we all crave.
alongside that (one would hope) the club will have a stability and platform for continued progress and development that it has not been anywhere near achieving in decades.
i’m convinced moyes wants to instil the ’school of science’ mentality to his team, just as much as we want him to, but as you say it takes time. keegan brought flair and bravado to newcastle in bucketloads but won nothing. we’re in a position here to build something solid and enduring and i am sure the good football will come with time.
moyes has always held up arsene wenger as his role model and it was wenger’s remoulding of the very ’culture’ of arsenal football club from top to bottom that has resulted in his consistent production of arguably the finest pure footballing sides ever seen in english football... with trophies to boot.
moyes arrived at an everton bereft of financial stability, modern day facilities, recent success and ability to attract top players (and stars of the future) and has still turned us into a side capable of a top four finish - albeit by graft more than craft. a number of the necessary factors in building a club capable of regularly challenging for honours remain to be addressed, but given time and support there is no reason why they shouldn’t be.
lots of ifs and maybes, but moyes has done more to suggest he can take everton in the right direction than anyone else in god knows how long. here’s hoping we can get the injured lads fit and make this season part one of a successful next five-year plan - COYB!
alongside that (one would hope) the club will have a stability and platform for continued progress and development that it has not been anywhere near achieving in decades.
i’m convinced moyes wants to instil the ’school of science’ mentality to his team, just as much as we want him to, but as you say it takes time. keegan brought flair and bravado to newcastle in bucketloads but won nothing. we’re in a position here to build something solid and enduring and i am sure the good football will come with time.
moyes has always held up arsene wenger as his role model and it was wenger’s remoulding of the very ’culture’ of arsenal football club from top to bottom that has resulted in his consistent production of arguably the finest pure footballing sides ever seen in english football... with trophies to boot.
moyes arrived at an everton bereft of financial stability, modern day facilities, recent success and ability to attract top players (and stars of the future) and has still turned us into a side capable of a top four finish - albeit by graft more than craft. a number of the necessary factors in building a club capable of regularly challenging for honours remain to be addressed, but given time and support there is no reason why they shouldn’t be.
lots of ifs and maybes, but moyes has done more to suggest he can take everton in the right direction than anyone else in god knows how long. here’s hoping we can get the injured lads fit and make this season part one of a successful next five-year plan - COYB!
I Dont think we play ugly footbal all of the time. If you look at the build up play to Pienaars goal against middlesboro, there was sheer class there that ripped through boro’s midefield and defence, i just think its consistency we need. If you look at the likes of Chelsea, and how Abramovic wants chelsea to play ’attractive football’ Yet they have won the league how many times? I don’t think you can win games like you can across europe because the league is just too good and too tough. I think Moyes’ ’rough’ approach is bob on. We will just need to adapt for european games. In moyes we trust.
John, I’m not sure it’s the fans who need convincing but David himself.
Like you say work ethic will only take you so far and his detractors, often correcttly, point out that it’s his obsession with running hard and fast for 90 minutes solid that is diminishing some of our better players’ real talents.
Our forward line, for example, is the most expensive we’ve ever assembled and I for one sincerely hope we are not £20m+ shy just to watch our strikers throwing in tackles in the centre-circle.
As for this being the start of Phase 2, well, great - bring it on. But it would be easier to believe we were moving forward if David could drop his increasingly irritating habit of responding to often legitimate criticism by reminding everybody how grim things were before he took over.
Because let’s be honest that’s the reason he got the job (as he well knows) and more importantly, I don’t need any such reminders: I was paying good money to watch the dross.
Like you say work ethic will only take you so far and his detractors, often correcttly, point out that it’s his obsession with running hard and fast for 90 minutes solid that is diminishing some of our better players’ real talents.
Our forward line, for example, is the most expensive we’ve ever assembled and I for one sincerely hope we are not £20m+ shy just to watch our strikers throwing in tackles in the centre-circle.
As for this being the start of Phase 2, well, great - bring it on. But it would be easier to believe we were moving forward if David could drop his increasingly irritating habit of responding to often legitimate criticism by reminding everybody how grim things were before he took over.
Because let’s be honest that’s the reason he got the job (as he well knows) and more importantly, I don’t need any such reminders: I was paying good money to watch the dross.
John ? I?ve been a long time admirer of what Moyes has done for Everton but if I was honest I have also been questioning some of his decisions of late?? thank you for getting me back on track!
Your spot on, we need to give this team more time to get used to each other playing a different game and more time for Moyes to know how to utilise them. Lets see how the seasons goes and if we happen to be at The City of Manchester Stadium on 14th May then maybe Moyes will silence his critics! (we can only hope)
Two excellent articles on here today - first time for ages I’m leaving this site not feeling depressed to be a blue! COYB
Your spot on, we need to give this team more time to get used to each other playing a different game and more time for Moyes to know how to utilise them. Lets see how the seasons goes and if we happen to be at The City of Manchester Stadium on 14th May then maybe Moyes will silence his critics! (we can only hope)
Two excellent articles on here today - first time for ages I’m leaving this site not feeling depressed to be a blue! COYB
Yobo and Lescott seem unsure of themselves..Erm What do expect Yobo never plays with the same partne.r Every week its swapped and changed.Lescott is constantly being played out of position at left back then chucked back in the middle when ever Moyes thinks Stubbs is knackered.Its an awfull way to get a team settled.The reason why we dont make progrS alL stems from the middle of the park which Moyes thinks we dont need.By pass the middle with long balls.I dont understand why Moyes is still buying players who couldnt knock over a wendy house and thinking they can be our engine room.Osman,Piennar,Ateta ,Carsley,Neville
none of them can stand up to the likes of Gerrard,Lampard,Boupa Doiuf,Any of the Arsenal midfeild,Siisokko,Carrick etc.Our players are all to small to slow to weak and not very good Arteta apart.So tell me John who put this shambles together.Who sends out his team every game with the sole intent on not losing?Is it any wonder the strikers dont score with such a poorly thought out game plan and ridicolously small players.Please its a well thought out article but its to nice to Moyes.6 years and
counting.The playing staff will come and go but the style of play will remain the same.Its all Moyes knows.Or is that Irvine knows?
none of them can stand up to the likes of Gerrard,Lampard,Boupa Doiuf,Any of the Arsenal midfeild,Siisokko,Carrick etc.Our players are all to small to slow to weak and not very good Arteta apart.So tell me John who put this shambles together.Who sends out his team every game with the sole intent on not losing?Is it any wonder the strikers dont score with such a poorly thought out game plan and ridicolously small players.Please its a well thought out article but its to nice to Moyes.6 years and
counting.The playing staff will come and go but the style of play will remain the same.Its all Moyes knows.Or is that Irvine knows?
Come on people. Get your comments in quick before someone in authority gets bored with the guardian crossword and moves onto another debate. Quick now. No time to waste. Im getting impatient for the next forum already. Better have something else new or there will be trouble...
We do have too many lightweight midfielders I agree Tony and it’s the one area you can definitively point to and say Moyes has failed to buld anything solid. That said, it’s not for want of trying. He’s tried, and failed, to purchase numerous players (Parker, Emre, Fernandes, Barton) who could have made a difference and succeeded in getting others who have failed (Davies, VDM).
This will be his major challenge in the next season or two - to build a midfield which can both hold its own and also play some actual football. It’s the area of the field which was always going to be the hardest to reform between the two phases of his Everton career. However, we haven’t really seen this year’s attempt yet due to Cahill and Gravesen’s injuries plus the aborted efforts to buy a worldclass midfielder. Hopefully that money will still be available in January
This will be his major challenge in the next season or two - to build a midfield which can both hold its own and also play some actual football. It’s the area of the field which was always going to be the hardest to reform between the two phases of his Everton career. However, we haven’t really seen this year’s attempt yet due to Cahill and Gravesen’s injuries plus the aborted efforts to buy a worldclass midfielder. Hopefully that money will still be available in January
Tony Marsh is right with this one.Lescott was bought as a centre half to play with Yobo, Baines was bought to be left back, stop messing about keep Neville as right back,let them get an understanding. Its the midfield that needs sorting out along with the forward game.The style of the games in the last 5 years is still the same. Look at harry Rednaps style of game and use the strengths we have got combine the two n bobs your uncle.
A good and thought provoking article. The problem that I have is that when given funds, albeit belatedly, DM didn’t really do much with them. He bought a basically defensive utility player, a left-back and not much else. I am certain that Yakubu was not in the plan early in the summer and became a late decision, dare I say panic buy, following the pre-season injuries to Cahill and Vaughan. The vast majority of fans who have posted articles/comments in recent months tend to agree that the one area that most needed improvement was midfield, particularly central midfield. It is all very well having creative class on the flanks in Arteta and the emerging Pienaar, but if you don’t have similar class in the middle then the wide men don’t get the service they need, and consequently the strikers don’t get any kind of good service at all. Can DM rectify this in January? Sadly, I am not sure that he can. DM may have gained a reputation in England as one of the best young managers around, but does he have that reputation abroad...probably not. EFC have been out of Europe for so long that I dare say the majority of foreigners know ittle or nothing about him. Today one of the leading rumours in circulation is that Man City, and specifically Eriksson, is almost certain to capture Riquelme in January, a man we tried (and failed) to sign just before the window closed. The reason I bring this up is the fact that, whether we like him or not, Eriksson has a huge reputaion in world football as a club manager and players are, apparently, lining up to join him. We might try to sign those same players, but I fear we wil not succeed, particularly if they have seen the way we currently ’play’ our football. Moyes quoted preference for British players is perhaps more through necessity than desire. It is easy to become obsessive about foreign players. Not all of them fit in and many are in fact no better than their British counterparts, but, having said that, there are not too many British players available who fit the bill at the moment.
As an aside, one who did catch my eye last weekend is Lee Johnson of Bristol City. I don’t know how many of you watched the BC v Sheff Utd game on Saturday, but I thought Bristol passed Sheffield off the park and nigh on everything seemed to go through Johnson. Watching, I was left musing....if only EFC had a central midfielder that could control a game like that.
As an aside, one who did catch my eye last weekend is Lee Johnson of Bristol City. I don’t know how many of you watched the BC v Sheff Utd game on Saturday, but I thought Bristol passed Sheffield off the park and nigh on everything seemed to go through Johnson. Watching, I was left musing....if only EFC had a central midfielder that could control a game like that.
I totally agree with Tony on the Yobo Lescott situation. This is one area where DM has driven us all crazy. Yobo was never a worry before this season. Last year, he nearly played every single minute and you could count on your hands the glaring mistakes he made. This year, I already have had to take off my shoes and we are only in the first part of the season! If you leave it to partnering, it seems too simple an answer. Other teams mix and match defenders all the time. Is Yobo carrying an injury? He did tweak the groin in the first match of the season, and he seems slower. But he also needs to worry about his right flank more than a central defender should. Baines will be a better left back than we have had in ages, but I did say WILL BE, because he certainly can go forward, just not sure if he can go backwards enough. The better teams have better midfielders. No question, Tony, no question. If you look at the goals the Gunners scored on the weekend, they were creations! We don’t have that especially when DM plays two defensive mids in a 4-4-2. But, it hasn’t been for a lack of trying. Shandy Andy had a fairly good pedigree when he arrived. He has turned out to be a different kind of dog. Davies was sought after, and he didn’t show much. Pinnear....yes, some games, no some others. What would have happened to our mid field if Tommie Boy had stayed instead of going to Spain? I bet a different look would have been in the cards. I still like Carsley as the holding midfielder. He seems to be selfless, and still can give the opponents fits.
But Tony is right. Except for Arteta on Goodison grass, we are not at all creative in the midfield, and that is the most glaring difference from us and those teams that are better or more attractive than us.
But Tony is right. Except for Arteta on Goodison grass, we are not at all creative in the midfield, and that is the most glaring difference from us and those teams that are better or more attractive than us.
Moyes has not taken us into a new ’ era ’ Have we won a trophie in the last 5 years? No
Have we even got to a Quater-Final in the last 5 years? No everyone bangs on about he got us 4th he got us 6th And? So what? A club of Evertons size should be expecting Europe every year and if we do crap again this season he has got to go.
Doing good one season and rubbish the next is certainly not what the supporters want I want a club in Europe year in year out and actually challanging for a trophie we need to get ready to become a big club again instead of living in the past we need to look to the futer and think to ourselves Moyes and the Chair Fat Bill are not good enough to run Everton Football Club.
Have we even got to a Quater-Final in the last 5 years? No everyone bangs on about he got us 4th he got us 6th And? So what? A club of Evertons size should be expecting Europe every year and if we do crap again this season he has got to go.
Doing good one season and rubbish the next is certainly not what the supporters want I want a club in Europe year in year out and actually challanging for a trophie we need to get ready to become a big club again instead of living in the past we need to look to the futer and think to ourselves Moyes and the Chair Fat Bill are not good enough to run Everton Football Club.
You’ve got it about right john,it’s about getting the balance.Think back to1984 Howard had to chop and change the team until he got it right.Moysey ? i have never heard a managers name chanted so much.The only way he would leave would be if we were relegated .On the other hand if that rich billionare ever arrives he would probably get his own man....in Moyes we trust.
Thom Wire,
Sorry to dissapoint you, but you could say that about 16-17 of the clubs in the Premiership not winning trophies in the last five years. Not making excuses, but also not buying into that argument either. I think if you look around the league, you will see clubs and managers who got to a certain level, and then decided that they were no longer good for each other (either way, fired or quit) and I am at a loss to name one club that has actually improved it’s standing in the short term. If you want to go backwards to go forward, that’s fine. But, if the lub and DM parted ways right now, it would be more consistent with history that the club would go backwards for a period of time before climbing back up. And I’m not talking our history, but the history of the league. Is Chelsea going to be better off with out the special one? What happened to Charlton or Bolton? Wigan without Jewell might not survive. WBA, Palace...it has taken Villa about 2 seasons to recover. Even the RS went backwards for awhile under the Ugly little Dwarf. Newcastle too. They were higher up the table with Sir Bobby. I’m not saying DM is ours forever, but be ready to go backwards for awhile after a change is made.
Al
Sorry to dissapoint you, but you could say that about 16-17 of the clubs in the Premiership not winning trophies in the last five years. Not making excuses, but also not buying into that argument either. I think if you look around the league, you will see clubs and managers who got to a certain level, and then decided that they were no longer good for each other (either way, fired or quit) and I am at a loss to name one club that has actually improved it’s standing in the short term. If you want to go backwards to go forward, that’s fine. But, if the lub and DM parted ways right now, it would be more consistent with history that the club would go backwards for a period of time before climbing back up. And I’m not talking our history, but the history of the league. Is Chelsea going to be better off with out the special one? What happened to Charlton or Bolton? Wigan without Jewell might not survive. WBA, Palace...it has taken Villa about 2 seasons to recover. Even the RS went backwards for awhile under the Ugly little Dwarf. Newcastle too. They were higher up the table with Sir Bobby. I’m not saying DM is ours forever, but be ready to go backwards for awhile after a change is made.
Al
In addition to Al’s comments. I think a lot of people forget that if we sack Moyes we don’t just lose the bad things, we lose the good things too.
That means as well as the hoofball, the lack of creativity, the utility players and whatever else you dislike about Moyes. You also lose the teamwork, the organisation, the work ethic, the eye for lower league players, the dignity and professionalism and any other quality you care to name that he’s brought to the club.
That means as well as the hoofball, the lack of creativity, the utility players and whatever else you dislike about Moyes. You also lose the teamwork, the organisation, the work ethic, the eye for lower league players, the dignity and professionalism and any other quality you care to name that he’s brought to the club.
I’ll start where Al and John Holmes left off - WHO is there to bring in to replace Moyes?
...Reverting to John’s original post, I like it very much. Well reasoned and it makes sense - please write more!
Anyone who has been involved in building a team, whether work, social or football, will know that it’s all about the cycle.
Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing. Then it’s back to the start especially with new people on board and new plans.
In any intermediate stage a team is going to go through the rough patches before individuals develop an understanding of each other and things start to work normally. Last season we saw Moyes 5 year plan come to fruition and a firm base - the performing.
This year we are seeing Moyes try to do [at least] three things with the team.
1. Consolidate what has gone before.
2. Build a better team
3. Move into playing more illustrious football.
As a team Everton must do those three things to benefit from last season or at least remain in the top 6 of the premiership.
I also fully expect to see some "odd" and poor performances in the next month. Although come November and early December I expect we will see a team more in line with what we all hope for as the team starts performing again.
...Reverting to John’s original post, I like it very much. Well reasoned and it makes sense - please write more!
Anyone who has been involved in building a team, whether work, social or football, will know that it’s all about the cycle.
Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing. Then it’s back to the start especially with new people on board and new plans.
In any intermediate stage a team is going to go through the rough patches before individuals develop an understanding of each other and things start to work normally. Last season we saw Moyes 5 year plan come to fruition and a firm base - the performing.
This year we are seeing Moyes try to do [at least] three things with the team.
1. Consolidate what has gone before.
2. Build a better team
3. Move into playing more illustrious football.
As a team Everton must do those three things to benefit from last season or at least remain in the top 6 of the premiership.
I also fully expect to see some "odd" and poor performances in the next month. Although come November and early December I expect we will see a team more in line with what we all hope for as the team starts performing again.
Tony H, you say "This year we are seeing Moyes try to do 3 things with the team"The 3rd one you mention "move into playing more illustrious football"I’m not being funny mate,but I have not seen any proof of this. Moyes still plays the type of football that he has been playing in nearly all his time with us.I know you can’t build a team overnight, but after 5yrs in charge,surely your team should be actually playing football?
This is exactly the conversation about all things Blue that we need more of here. Tony Marsh weighed in with his comments and they on target. Others have also added to the dialogue. This I like. It’s not a question of whether Everton play attractive football, that we know right now is not the case, but rather what do we need to do to go forward. And if those of you who don’t think DM is the choice, you have ever right to your opinion IF you back it up with facts, not just conjecture or off-hand remarks. And those of us who want to stay the course right now, if we lay out our reseasoning with cold, hard facts instead of caustic comments then both sides can have a DISCUSSION. This is as good a post on TW as you will see.
Brian, I say "more illustrious football" because from what I have seen the team are trying to play a passing game of football. It might not being working yet and a rather horrible style is resulting but the effort is there.
On a whole the team do play the ball on the ground sufficiently more than most variations of the team in the last number of years. The midfield (when there is one!) is more creative than we’ve seen since Kanchelskis.
I’m not saying it’s the finished article however, once the team beds in and the next transitional period is up, I reckon we’ll consistently see Pienaar on one wing with Arteta on the other with Gravesen and Cahill in the middle.
Until then (for the next few weeks) we’ll probably see a bit of an oddball approach as the team work out how to put it all into practise.
On a whole the team do play the ball on the ground sufficiently more than most variations of the team in the last number of years. The midfield (when there is one!) is more creative than we’ve seen since Kanchelskis.
I’m not saying it’s the finished article however, once the team beds in and the next transitional period is up, I reckon we’ll consistently see Pienaar on one wing with Arteta on the other with Gravesen and Cahill in the middle.
Until then (for the next few weeks) we’ll probably see a bit of an oddball approach as the team work out how to put it all into practise.
Excellent article John. Touched the reality of our situation and Moyes’s achievements without glossing over the obvious flaws.
Many good posts as well guys, the most constructive forum I’ve seen on here in a while.
Short sighted assumptions about how to fix our current failings are pie in the sky.
"Look at harry Rednaps style of game and use the strengths we have got combine the two n bobs your uncle"
Bob’s your uncle? Obviously football managements a piece of cake! (no offence David but that statement was just silly)
Tony’s got a point about the chopping and changing in the defence, but we don’t know everything that goes on behind closed doors so I’m willing to give Moyes a little more rope there. I’m sure the constant swopping doesn’t help Joseph, but I refuse to blame Moyes entirely for Yobo’s shakey start to the season. Players must take responsibility for simple mistakes like the inability to pass 5 yards or failure to mark players.
Moyes must understand that the current football is not acceptable and the fans will only put up with it for so long, but I agree with John that he has successfully acheived phase 1 (more good seasons than bad Tom W), and now he deserves at least a season to get phase 2 off the ground.
Trophies for anyone outside the big 4 have been almost non existent in Moyes’s reign, so that as an argument against Moyes is baseless.
There is no doubt that there is much to worry about and much to work on, but Moyes out? Crazy!
COYB
Many good posts as well guys, the most constructive forum I’ve seen on here in a while.
Short sighted assumptions about how to fix our current failings are pie in the sky.
"Look at harry Rednaps style of game and use the strengths we have got combine the two n bobs your uncle"
Bob’s your uncle? Obviously football managements a piece of cake! (no offence David but that statement was just silly)
Tony’s got a point about the chopping and changing in the defence, but we don’t know everything that goes on behind closed doors so I’m willing to give Moyes a little more rope there. I’m sure the constant swopping doesn’t help Joseph, but I refuse to blame Moyes entirely for Yobo’s shakey start to the season. Players must take responsibility for simple mistakes like the inability to pass 5 yards or failure to mark players.
Moyes must understand that the current football is not acceptable and the fans will only put up with it for so long, but I agree with John that he has successfully acheived phase 1 (more good seasons than bad Tom W), and now he deserves at least a season to get phase 2 off the ground.
Trophies for anyone outside the big 4 have been almost non existent in Moyes’s reign, so that as an argument against Moyes is baseless.
There is no doubt that there is much to worry about and much to work on, but Moyes out? Crazy!
COYB
One of the downfalls of managing EFC at this time is the club itself, a manager has always been the focal point for failings. Not that this is an excuse, the amount of crap that Moyes has to tolerate coming from someone like Wyness, not directed at him , but any statement at all, embarrasses the club. The PR at the club at present is atrocious to say the least. Point scoring issues like the work in the communities and the disabled team aren’t used to project an image of a community club. KW tries desperately to play with the big boys and fails miserably every time.
DM is no orator either, just when you want him to make a supportive statement he is quoted as saying he wants success more than the supporters! In a media world like ours we mustn’t give any opportunity to be misrepresented, but each statement must follow our (the fans) creed. If Moyes had a bit more PR coaching the pressures wouldn’t be so great.
DM is no orator either, just when you want him to make a supportive statement he is quoted as saying he wants success more than the supporters! In a media world like ours we mustn’t give any opportunity to be misrepresented, but each statement must follow our (the fans) creed. If Moyes had a bit more PR coaching the pressures wouldn’t be so great.
A reasonable article but four years before it has any relevance.
David Moyes is here until at least 2011 so get used to the idea.He is expected to average 10th position over that period which,if achieved will see the club stabilised -and in a new home.
Bill and Davey are a parnership in every sense of the word-if one goes they both do.But neither is going anywhere.As for the product -it’s about league positions not fancy football!
David Moyes is here until at least 2011 so get used to the idea.He is expected to average 10th position over that period which,if achieved will see the club stabilised -and in a new home.
Bill and Davey are a parnership in every sense of the word-if one goes they both do.But neither is going anywhere.As for the product -it’s about league positions not fancy football!
Moyes is a defender and thinks like one. Most managers who were once players usually think the way they played. If Everton were ever to win the league under Moyes it would be through graft and hard work. I'm thinking efficient, tough, and difficult to break down. I cannpt see free flowing football under Moyes, he's just no that type of manager. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but not what we want to see, I'm not saying what we are seeing now is good just that it won't be much better. It'll be like Chelsea were under Mourinho.
Richard, I can’t believe that you think in his next 5yrs Moyes has only to average 10th position,and that will be job done.So he would have been here 10yrs,and you would be happy averaging 10th place?If he is around till the end of another 5yrs,I would expect us to be a consistantly top 6 side.Playing good football,and to of least got near to winning some trophies.To be honest In another 5 yrs I would have expected to have won a trophy or 2.
What has gone wrong with this site?
John Holmes posts a very positive defence of Moyes tenure which is introduced by the Toffeeweb editors as no less than superb.
Tony Marsh criticises but is measured and constructive whilst Richard comes across all "glass half-empty".
Excellent article and I feel it does articulate superbly the views of the (and I choose my words carefully here) the anti "anti-Moyes" spectrum of supporters.
Can we keep this article permanently pinned?
John Holmes posts a very positive defence of Moyes tenure which is introduced by the Toffeeweb editors as no less than superb.
Tony Marsh criticises but is measured and constructive whilst Richard comes across all "glass half-empty".
Excellent article and I feel it does articulate superbly the views of the (and I choose my words carefully here) the anti "anti-Moyes" spectrum of supporters.
Can we keep this article permanently pinned?
Good article John.
My own belief is that we are two more seasons away from competing. We nearly have a full XI when fit, two more summers signing 3 good signings we will have a a team that can compete. In the meantime I will enjoy the highs.
My own belief is that we are two more seasons away from competing. We nearly have a full XI when fit, two more summers signing 3 good signings we will have a a team that can compete. In the meantime I will enjoy the highs.
Doddy.
Why is it that when someone posts an article which starts a reasonable debate you try to piss on the parade.
I personally find that more offensive than anything else written on this site.
We know your opinions re Moyes, so stop repeating yourself please.
Just try to contribute to the discussion instead of what appears to be sycophantic adoration.
Why is it that when someone posts an article which starts a reasonable debate you try to piss on the parade.
I personally find that more offensive than anything else written on this site.
We know your opinions re Moyes, so stop repeating yourself please.
Just try to contribute to the discussion instead of what appears to be sycophantic adoration.
Some good points there John. I think he doesn’t deserve more time than after this season but i can’t see that happening. The fact ov the matter is that Moyes is not gonna go anywhere while Kenwright is in charge end ov. Nowaday’s football is the only industry that people can achieve absolutely fuck all and still receive vast amounts ov money and keep their job.
The problem at Everton is nobody has got any bollock’s to change things. We’ve got a manager who hasn’t got the arse to give younger players a chance he sticks with the tried and tested(most are shite anyway). Apart from Victor coming on in the 2nd half last week i can’t name the last time he made a substitution that turned a game in our favour. How many time’s has he subbed Phil Neville while he’s been Everton manager?? One of the most consistent shite performers week in week out!! How many more countless shite performances from Hibbert, Osman, Stubbs, Carsley etc will it take before the fucking penny drop’s in that nugget’s head that this calibre ov footballer does not belong at this club. Kenwright is the biggest fucking waste ov space ever connected to Everton Football Club in my opinion. He’s been on the board since about 1992 and guess what it’s been the worst time I can remember being an Everton supporter in terms ov the club being in shit street. At a time when the club should have moved with the times what happened we stood still and were left behind. This Kirkby ground move fiasco has only arisen now because of the clubs failing and it’s directors incompetance over the last 15 years or so and guess who was on the board during that period?? The ground issue should have been addressed fuckin years ago!!! All this without the countless lies he’s told, the doorman annoucing Kendall’s resignation to the press and him being on the board when he sanctioned the money for Brett Angel. What a wanker!!
The problem at Everton is nobody has got any bollock’s to change things. We’ve got a manager who hasn’t got the arse to give younger players a chance he sticks with the tried and tested(most are shite anyway). Apart from Victor coming on in the 2nd half last week i can’t name the last time he made a substitution that turned a game in our favour. How many time’s has he subbed Phil Neville while he’s been Everton manager?? One of the most consistent shite performers week in week out!! How many more countless shite performances from Hibbert, Osman, Stubbs, Carsley etc will it take before the fucking penny drop’s in that nugget’s head that this calibre ov footballer does not belong at this club. Kenwright is the biggest fucking waste ov space ever connected to Everton Football Club in my opinion. He’s been on the board since about 1992 and guess what it’s been the worst time I can remember being an Everton supporter in terms ov the club being in shit street. At a time when the club should have moved with the times what happened we stood still and were left behind. This Kirkby ground move fiasco has only arisen now because of the clubs failing and it’s directors incompetance over the last 15 years or so and guess who was on the board during that period?? The ground issue should have been addressed fuckin years ago!!! All this without the countless lies he’s told, the doorman annoucing Kendall’s resignation to the press and him being on the board when he sanctioned the money for Brett Angel. What a wanker!!
good shout! but the tactics in some recent games have been baffling to say the least and football is also about the here and now! Its a results business and how we got the results in the uefa games is beyond me, we we’re awful!! But keep the faith we shall. hopefully davey can get the yak to start putting in a shift starting next game against the shower of s*@t across the park! nilsatis!
There is a real dilemma here; how to manage the transition from labourers to craftsman whilst still retaining the work ethic that is part of EVERY successful team.
The real problem is that those players that have high levels of skill, workrate, energy and a commitment to the team ethic are at a premium, and hence cost fortunes. Just look at the teams that have tried to blend this in - Newcastle, Tottenham and the RS. All have failed having spent significantly more than we have. And I don?t see that changing anytime soon.
So I think it?s inevitable that in dismantling the safety first, work at all costs ethic and replacing it with sprinkles of flair, we will have hickups (perhaps significant ones) along the way. Perhaps we?ll never get there. Whether that?s because DM isn?t the man or he won?t have been given the resources, only time will tell.
The real problem is that those players that have high levels of skill, workrate, energy and a commitment to the team ethic are at a premium, and hence cost fortunes. Just look at the teams that have tried to blend this in - Newcastle, Tottenham and the RS. All have failed having spent significantly more than we have. And I don?t see that changing anytime soon.
So I think it?s inevitable that in dismantling the safety first, work at all costs ethic and replacing it with sprinkles of flair, we will have hickups (perhaps significant ones) along the way. Perhaps we?ll never get there. Whether that?s because DM isn?t the man or he won?t have been given the resources, only time will tell.
John, an excellent, balanced and well written piece.
You?re totally correct in saying that Moyes is attempting to change the style of play and hopefully, take us on to the next level, however, we all know that along with the improvement we?ve experienced under his reign, comes increased expectation levels. we have to remember we are no more than 2 months into the season and have made progress in the Uefa and Carling cups and although we could have had a few more league points, you have to say that the season has been satisfactory so far. Moyes hasn?t been helped by Fernandes pulling out of the deal when it was too late to get a suitable replacement in, and the ?stop gap? signing of Tommy G has been foiled by his injury.
Having long term injuries to Cahill and Vaughan, plus Johnson obviously carrying an injury for the last month has not allowed Moyes to bed down with the system he wants. We looked very fluid in the Werder Bremmen game, when he played a diamond formation in midfield with Cahill at the point, and I think that he?d like to be able to play this way more regularly with everyone fit.
Yes, the way we?ve played over the last few years is not to everyone?s taste, but real progress has been made and I think by the end of the season most fans will see the evidence for themselves.
I have to laugh whenever this subject of removing Moyes comes up, remember two words.
Walter Smith
You?re totally correct in saying that Moyes is attempting to change the style of play and hopefully, take us on to the next level, however, we all know that along with the improvement we?ve experienced under his reign, comes increased expectation levels. we have to remember we are no more than 2 months into the season and have made progress in the Uefa and Carling cups and although we could have had a few more league points, you have to say that the season has been satisfactory so far. Moyes hasn?t been helped by Fernandes pulling out of the deal when it was too late to get a suitable replacement in, and the ?stop gap? signing of Tommy G has been foiled by his injury.
Having long term injuries to Cahill and Vaughan, plus Johnson obviously carrying an injury for the last month has not allowed Moyes to bed down with the system he wants. We looked very fluid in the Werder Bremmen game, when he played a diamond formation in midfield with Cahill at the point, and I think that he?d like to be able to play this way more regularly with everyone fit.
Yes, the way we?ve played over the last few years is not to everyone?s taste, but real progress has been made and I think by the end of the season most fans will see the evidence for themselves.
I have to laugh whenever this subject of removing Moyes comes up, remember two words.
Walter Smith
Andy H have you any idea what Walter Smith has achieved in football.Before he came to Everton he was the most successfull manager in Scottish Football history and still is.He has won more trophies than Moyes has had hot dinners.Look at him now.Takes the Scotland side to the brink of European Champs qualification leaves and with in 9 months has Rangers challenging Celtic in the league for the first time in years.Rangers are top of their CL group after beating German champs Stuttgart
and then Lyon away 3-0.Smith was under funded ate Everton and had to sign has beens on free transfers.Please give it a rest.Do you honestly think Rangers fans would take Moyes over Smith.Dont make me laugh.I would sooner have SMith leading us in Europe than DM.Far more experience and know how.
and then Lyon away 3-0.Smith was under funded ate Everton and had to sign has beens on free transfers.Please give it a rest.Do you honestly think Rangers fans would take Moyes over Smith.Dont make me laugh.I would sooner have SMith leading us in Europe than DM.Far more experience and know how.
I think too many people are not realising what Pienaar and Gravesen were brought in for. To add a touch of class in midfield. Neither are world beaters in the mould of Fabregas etc, but they are players who want the ball to their feet and have the ability to do something with it. Likewise with Baines and Jags, Baines is definately an attacking full back, Jags I think was originally bought to do the same on the right hand side. Yakubu as we know from previous seasons, will thrive if given the right service from midfield, so he fits in with this as well.
To me, the signings made this summer all point to one thing - that Moyes wants to play the ball on the deck and John Holmes has summed it up perfectly - it won’t happen overnight, but Moyes does deserve a chance to bring his vision to fruition
To me, the signings made this summer all point to one thing - that Moyes wants to play the ball on the deck and John Holmes has summed it up perfectly - it won’t happen overnight, but Moyes does deserve a chance to bring his vision to fruition
No transition from you John, top 4 everytime.
My only quibble is that I don’t think that this is the start of the 5yr plan Mk.2.
Somebody remarked recently ’remember the Preston team that we played in a cup tie, they lost narrowly but passed the ball about like nobodies business’...So it appears he can do it.
It also used to be said that you had to kick your way out of the 2nd Div.(coca cola championship in new money) so maybe thats why he never got them out of there and maybe took the lesson TOO much to heart. Add to that the financial prime directive...don’t get relegated, this was before the 30mill cushion that is in place this season if you do.
Hopefully these first 5yrs have not been the actual plan. but the time spent trying to do 2 jobs...1) not get relegated...2) undo the legacy of the nineties mis-management.
I hope I’m right, given the fact that Moyes seems , baring an epic meltdown, not to be going anywhere soon.
But and there is always a but, 2 or 3 yrs down the track and we are still getting what we are still, by enlarge, getting the same shite then it’s Moyes out!
My only quibble is that I don’t think that this is the start of the 5yr plan Mk.2.
Somebody remarked recently ’remember the Preston team that we played in a cup tie, they lost narrowly but passed the ball about like nobodies business’...So it appears he can do it.
It also used to be said that you had to kick your way out of the 2nd Div.(coca cola championship in new money) so maybe thats why he never got them out of there and maybe took the lesson TOO much to heart. Add to that the financial prime directive...don’t get relegated, this was before the 30mill cushion that is in place this season if you do.
Hopefully these first 5yrs have not been the actual plan. but the time spent trying to do 2 jobs...1) not get relegated...2) undo the legacy of the nineties mis-management.
I hope I’m right, given the fact that Moyes seems , baring an epic meltdown, not to be going anywhere soon.
But and there is always a but, 2 or 3 yrs down the track and we are still getting what we are still, by enlarge, getting the same shite then it’s Moyes out!
A nice article that is well balanced and does not contain the kind of pro-moyes/anti-moyes dogma that we can all lapse into.
The truth is in the current stage of this squads development, we are not ready to play an attractive brand of football without getting beat. Look at Boro they played some great football at Goodison but go beat and will continue to do so most weeks.
We are also not ready to carry a geniune finisher and I think thats why Yakubu looks like he is struggling and probably why Beattie did. At the moment we are relying on a whole team effort.
I hate to say it but a bit like Bolton under Big Sam.
The truth is in the current stage of this squads development, we are not ready to play an attractive brand of football without getting beat. Look at Boro they played some great football at Goodison but go beat and will continue to do so most weeks.
We are also not ready to carry a geniune finisher and I think thats why Yakubu looks like he is struggling and probably why Beattie did. At the moment we are relying on a whole team effort.
I hate to say it but a bit like Bolton under Big Sam.
Nice article. However the only bullet point which mattters is number 4, MONEY. Nothing Moyes can do about that.
Excellent article John. I think alot of the disappointment felt by the fan’s is down to the promise we showed towards the end of last season. We could see something coming together, and a few crafty signings would have put us up with the contenders. The loss of Fernandes has been a bigger blow than most people realise. His was the only name I was desperate to see on the back of a blue shirt and all the other new players put together can’t make up for his loss. It does , however mean that we are only one decent signing away from the best team we’ve had since the eighties, and that can only be good news. Whilst I hope to see more cohesion from around November when the injured return, I am starting to get really excited about next season when I believe we will really have something to shout about.
Excellent submission John.
I have a confession to make; I have for some time been uncomfortable with the management of David Moyes, however, I do accept that we are a better side than when he arrived, the club is increasing its footballing credibility and he does deserve another period of ’safe management’ when he can continue to develop the team.
I recognise that we are improving but I would share that so are a significant number of other ’second tier’ clubs such as Newcastle, City and Villa and on that basis we cannot afford to fall behind.
I see this season as being pivotal in illustrating how our next ten years will develop. I think a trophy and or another top 6 finish will allow us to build on our good fortune of the last 18 months and make us more attractive to quality players. Failure this year in terms of finishing outside the top 6 and also failing miserably in the cup competitions will generate a player revolt in my view with Lescott, Johnson and Arteta being targets for other clubs and us being vulnerable in our ability to stop an exodus.
I believe Moyes deserves the chance to deliver the former. In the past I would have said that reluctantly but given John’s arguments and further analysis from others I too am of the same opinion.
I have a confession to make; I have for some time been uncomfortable with the management of David Moyes, however, I do accept that we are a better side than when he arrived, the club is increasing its footballing credibility and he does deserve another period of ’safe management’ when he can continue to develop the team.
I recognise that we are improving but I would share that so are a significant number of other ’second tier’ clubs such as Newcastle, City and Villa and on that basis we cannot afford to fall behind.
I see this season as being pivotal in illustrating how our next ten years will develop. I think a trophy and or another top 6 finish will allow us to build on our good fortune of the last 18 months and make us more attractive to quality players. Failure this year in terms of finishing outside the top 6 and also failing miserably in the cup competitions will generate a player revolt in my view with Lescott, Johnson and Arteta being targets for other clubs and us being vulnerable in our ability to stop an exodus.
I believe Moyes deserves the chance to deliver the former. In the past I would have said that reluctantly but given John’s arguments and further analysis from others I too am of the same opinion.
Master Moyes has done a stellar job with limited funds and a difficult hierachy to work with. This club has progressed more in five years under his guidance than any of his predecessors ever did going back twenty years. Mr Royle deserves credit from pulling this club out of the fire when the damage done by Mr walker seemed irreversible and the subsequent cup final victory was in mind a great achievement. I can understand peoples dislike of Mister Moyes for his fiddling and spontaneous moments of incompetence but make no mistake about it we have made giant strides since the mid to late 1990s. Only problem is some people are of an impatient nature and the clubs frustrating inability to win anything is becoming more conspicuous as the years pass.
Two weeks away from this site having had enough of reading pathetic, negative and over the top articles and views of how rubbish Everton and in particular moyes is.
I couldnt resist a peak today and its like the site has totally transformed. Finally a positive and above all realistic view on the events at Everton.
A pleasure to read.
I couldnt resist a peak today and its like the site has totally transformed. Finally a positive and above all realistic view on the events at Everton.
A pleasure to read.
Tony Marsh,
I am well aware of Smith?s record at Rangers and with Scotland and I don?t deny he has proved to be an excellent manger AT OTHER CLUBS. The point is that his record with Everton was abysmal. Have you really forgotton having defenders playing in midfield positions?, continual fights against relgation? Were you at boro for that abject capitulation in the F.A. Cup? I was, and I wasn?t alone in thinking that day on the way back that there was no escape from relegation. Moyes performed a minor miracle that season in keeping us up, since then there have been a lot more ups than downs.
Remember Moyes has built a side with an average age some 8 years younger than Smith?s and year on year we have improved and will continue to do so.
If you read my post correctly, you will have seen that it was not a critique of Smith, but a an appraisal of Moyes?s work over 5 years. The mention of Smith was an afterthought and a (justifiable) comparison, considering both managers have had a period of time in which the supporters have been able to evaluate their work.
If you would rather go back to the Smith ?Knox days at Everton, then I think you might find yourself in a very small minority.
I am well aware of Smith?s record at Rangers and with Scotland and I don?t deny he has proved to be an excellent manger AT OTHER CLUBS. The point is that his record with Everton was abysmal. Have you really forgotton having defenders playing in midfield positions?, continual fights against relgation? Were you at boro for that abject capitulation in the F.A. Cup? I was, and I wasn?t alone in thinking that day on the way back that there was no escape from relegation. Moyes performed a minor miracle that season in keeping us up, since then there have been a lot more ups than downs.
Remember Moyes has built a side with an average age some 8 years younger than Smith?s and year on year we have improved and will continue to do so.
If you read my post correctly, you will have seen that it was not a critique of Smith, but a an appraisal of Moyes?s work over 5 years. The mention of Smith was an afterthought and a (justifiable) comparison, considering both managers have had a period of time in which the supporters have been able to evaluate their work.
If you would rather go back to the Smith ?Knox days at Everton, then I think you might find yourself in a very small minority.
Aa a poster put it a couple back, a falling back could possibly lead to a player exodus. The poach is a constant fear, and it’s not just us, as many Prem clubs have fallen victim to that over the last few years. Look what happened to City after SWP took his boots to London. Richer, yet poorer at the same time. Do you think Wigan would have let Baines go if we didnt come a calling? He might be a difference maker in staying up.
But, if a player today is a wantaway, what CAN you do? Not a whole heck of a lot.
Weren’t we all a little stunned when TG went to Real Madrid a few years back right smack in the middle of a great season?
Forget Moyes for the moment, I agree that poaching can and will be a problem for us in the future. It’s not that we are either a buyer or a seller, but a developer. And if we develop someone who wants away, there is really nothing that can be done in today’s style of player/ management releationships.
But, if a player today is a wantaway, what CAN you do? Not a whole heck of a lot.
Weren’t we all a little stunned when TG went to Real Madrid a few years back right smack in the middle of a great season?
Forget Moyes for the moment, I agree that poaching can and will be a problem for us in the future. It’s not that we are either a buyer or a seller, but a developer. And if we develop someone who wants away, there is really nothing that can be done in today’s style of player/ management releationships.
I’ve been a long time admirer of this site but this is the first time I’ve felt the need to comment on any article that has been written.
Well said John!
Too often I’ve read surprised at the "Moyes bashing" that is said without the need to balance the article.
This however is well written and a fair assessment of progress and where we stand so far, with what to hope for and expect now and longer term.
More of this please!
Well said John!
Too often I’ve read surprised at the "Moyes bashing" that is said without the need to balance the article.
This however is well written and a fair assessment of progress and where we stand so far, with what to hope for and expect now and longer term.
More of this please!
I am surprised that others are surprised at the Moyes bashing. It would appear that although the football has not been brilliant we have had a modicum of success under the leadership of Moyes. That is if you can count getting into Europe as success !
Unfortunately this may lead to yet more angst on the part of the fans as Moyes continues to display a total lack of experience at the European level required to actually win something.
Perhaps it is the rising expectation level of the fans that leads to the ever increasing criticism of Moyes. We have spent an awful lot of money recently and the crap football has not changed. We are still whacking the ball, at all heights and angles, up to the front two expecting them to run after it. It is seldom played to feet !
He may, or may not, have been hampered by the Board in his quest to sign Fernandes but nevertheless the whole deal was left far too late considering what had gone before with the Tevez deal. And I believe that Fernandes would have made a considerable difference to the pretty lacklustre midfield that he seems to pick week in week out.
The only possible sticking point in the Fernandes deal was that he did not have the WORK ethic required. Fernandes did not tear around like a headless chicken looking for the ball.
Believe it or not I am not totally anti Moyes but there does not seem to have been the progress you would associate with the amount of money spent.
A good article John but I am not sure that I can put up with another five years of Moyes but it looks like I may have to !
Unfortunately this may lead to yet more angst on the part of the fans as Moyes continues to display a total lack of experience at the European level required to actually win something.
Perhaps it is the rising expectation level of the fans that leads to the ever increasing criticism of Moyes. We have spent an awful lot of money recently and the crap football has not changed. We are still whacking the ball, at all heights and angles, up to the front two expecting them to run after it. It is seldom played to feet !
He may, or may not, have been hampered by the Board in his quest to sign Fernandes but nevertheless the whole deal was left far too late considering what had gone before with the Tevez deal. And I believe that Fernandes would have made a considerable difference to the pretty lacklustre midfield that he seems to pick week in week out.
The only possible sticking point in the Fernandes deal was that he did not have the WORK ethic required. Fernandes did not tear around like a headless chicken looking for the ball.
Believe it or not I am not totally anti Moyes but there does not seem to have been the progress you would associate with the amount of money spent.
A good article John but I am not sure that I can put up with another five years of Moyes but it looks like I may have to !
The question for some of you is whether the football is attractive enough...and I agree. Thre are some days I will watch the early match with one of the attacking clubs and then our match will be on, and you sit and wonder...what is this??? But, I like results more than attractive football at this point. And if the results keep coming, then I’ll live with it. John Andrews doesnt want to stick with another 5 of Moyes, and truthfully how many mangers actually do stay for 10? A low percentage. Is DM third in tenure in the Prem right now?
Very well constructed post John, it says alot about trying to build a stable team before injecting the skills needed to create a winning team. Moyes and his team know this, and you cant say he hasnt been trying to buy that midfield lynchpin.
Come on, we weve been linked to every decent midfielder in the last couple of years, got stung by Fernandes and also bid for one of the best midfielders around today, Lucho Gonzalez.
Its not for want of trying, but the climate in which these kinds of players operate. When you can buy the quality players to entice better players to the club, which you cant deny Moyes is doing, we?ll see the right guys enertaining joining our club with more thought.
Come on, we weve been linked to every decent midfielder in the last couple of years, got stung by Fernandes and also bid for one of the best midfielders around today, Lucho Gonzalez.
Its not for want of trying, but the climate in which these kinds of players operate. When you can buy the quality players to entice better players to the club, which you cant deny Moyes is doing, we?ll see the right guys enertaining joining our club with more thought.
Thanks John - a thoughtful, intelligent article, followed up with some reasoned debate which makes good reading.
Please bear in mind that not all of us who criticise Moyes hurl abuse at him and his harder-core supporters - we make comments on what we see.
This second stage is the hardest one to get right - Moyes tried it and failed miserably two years ago and is in the process of trying again, with the benefit of job security and a more expensive squad.
Please bear in mind that not all of us who criticise Moyes hurl abuse at him and his harder-core supporters - we make comments on what we see.
This second stage is the hardest one to get right - Moyes tried it and failed miserably two years ago and is in the process of trying again, with the benefit of job security and a more expensive squad.
John Holmes:......What he said!
Couldn’t of put it better myself (which is why you write it and I give a sincere nod of approval! Great article. Spot on with every aspect.
Come on Moyesy, you da man!
Couldn’t of put it better myself (which is why you write it and I give a sincere nod of approval! Great article. Spot on with every aspect.
Come on Moyesy, you da man!
John,
thats one of the best articles Ive read on here for a long time. I often cant make my mind up about Moyes but what you have written makes a lot of sense.
Unlike Tony Marsh. Tony you would rather have Walter Smith back then? If DM decided to start a game against Coventry at home with 5 centrte backs (as Walter did) you would fucking implode! I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but seriously mate, thats laughable.
Now bring back Mike Walker, thats a different story......
thats one of the best articles Ive read on here for a long time. I often cant make my mind up about Moyes but what you have written makes a lot of sense.
Unlike Tony Marsh. Tony you would rather have Walter Smith back then? If DM decided to start a game against Coventry at home with 5 centrte backs (as Walter did) you would fucking implode! I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but seriously mate, thats laughable.
Now bring back Mike Walker, thats a different story......
Just wanted to say thanks for all the appreciative responses. Much obliged.
Good well balanced comments.I would never ever down DM at anytime, I consider the work & players he has brought in over the years have, in the majority of cases, been good. My only concern is our lack of tactical skill going forward, now, you might think this is daft, but , as a player DM was a defender and I often think maybe his defensive mentality may be a limiting factor. When you consider the problems we have had with James Beattie, AJ & now the Yak. Any comments on this ?
A well written piece with lots of optomism and reasons not to give up on DM. I agree with bits about transition and not turning into Brazil overnight but the tactics don’t appear to be changing at all. Why are we unable to put sides to the sword and play with some panache when we are obviously on our "A" game and playing tem off the park? A little too much caution on the part of DM and AI surely? The elation of giving someone a thorough good football spanking would keep the fans smiling for weeks and more than make up for the inevitable losses we will endure throughout a season. As the team develops the boss needs to develop too if not quicker.
Well done mate, very sensible well written article
Those saying we need another midfielder - what side wouldn’t miss Cahill? Arteta has also been out this season.
People said Curbishley had taken Cahrlton as far as he could and wanted a change - that worked out well. Be careful what you wish for.
People said Curbishley had taken Cahrlton as far as he could and wanted a change - that worked out well. Be careful what you wish for.
At the end of the day, DM is new to all this. He?s done well with transfers of players from the lower league. Do you not think that he wants success like we do? Do you not think that he wants to run a successful Premiership team like he ran a successful Championship team. Isn?t it every Managers dream to succeed? I think that he?s got results in the first 5 years be it a bit rocky but I?m sure he?s up for another 5 years and far more success. Just believe and wait. We are destined for greater things! We have great times ahead. Larissa who?
"At the end of the day, DM is new to all this."
What are you on about? New to what? He’s beenm the Everton Manager fo FIVE AND A HALF YEARS!!!! What, pray is New to him? Actually progressing in a European Cup competition beyond the qualifying round? Yes, I’ll give you that. But the fact remains, with the investment hes’s had. and with the players he’s bought, we should be playing ebtter football, having more consistent success. No that doesn’t mean palying like Arsenal or Brazil (how stupid is that?) but simply trying to do what we know these players can do, other than just defend. Moyes’s speciality... and so far this season, his players aren’t even getting that right! I’m sorry but 10th at the quarter point of the season is not good enough in my book. We need to be doing a hell of a lot better.
BTW, Larissa are the team who knocked out Blackburn.
What are you on about? New to what? He’s beenm the Everton Manager fo FIVE AND A HALF YEARS!!!! What, pray is New to him? Actually progressing in a European Cup competition beyond the qualifying round? Yes, I’ll give you that. But the fact remains, with the investment hes’s had. and with the players he’s bought, we should be playing ebtter football, having more consistent success. No that doesn’t mean palying like Arsenal or Brazil (how stupid is that?) but simply trying to do what we know these players can do, other than just defend. Moyes’s speciality... and so far this season, his players aren’t even getting that right! I’m sorry but 10th at the quarter point of the season is not good enough in my book. We need to be doing a hell of a lot better.
BTW, Larissa are the team who knocked out Blackburn.
Great article John
Thoughtful, insightful and interesting.
My only question is does David Moyes have the self belief, capacity and courage to develop and sustain a passing style football we surely all crave?
Thoughtful, insightful and interesting.
My only question is does David Moyes have the self belief, capacity and courage to develop and sustain a passing style football we surely all crave?
thanks john
This is why i pay toffeeweb a daily visit for a well balanced argument not a slanging match.
if only we can have this balance between aggresion and creaivity on saturday we will be laughing.
cheer bud
This is why i pay toffeeweb a daily visit for a well balanced argument not a slanging match.
if only we can have this balance between aggresion and creaivity on saturday we will be laughing.
cheer bud
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1 Posted 10/10/2007 at 15:46:26
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