COLUMNIST KEN BUCKLEY
From my seat: Derby (H)
By Ken Buckley : 06/04/2008 : 
Comments (43) :
Another three points toward either Champioons League or Uefa Cup from a game that was as washed out as the two teams and the second half snow flurries.
The difference between pre- and post-March in our performances is unfathomable. Many blame the defeat in Uefa Cup game yet it was a game that we didn't lose and played very well in but only a penalty shoot-out competition that was lost.
Comments (43) : So why the downturn in fortunes?.
Today's line-up showed no real weakness on paper but on grass it was as inept as you will see, especially against the team with the tag of the 'worst ever' in Premier League history.
The first half produced two moments of excitement, firstly after just a minute or so the Derby centre-back almost headed us in front and then after the quarter hour mark the Yak was fed and produced one of the misses of the season. The rest of the half passed mostly in boredom with Derby playing the better football but no cutting edge.
What would the manager do for the second half? Not a lot of options so he chose to swop Ossie and Manny who both had been poor first half but, in Manny's defence, within the first ten minutes he had recieved passes that were uncontrollable, these sort of passes used to be delivered by teamates who wanted to get rid of players, surely that's not the case with us?
Still, with the managers words ringing in the players ears, we started the second period at a more lively if not productive pace. Then, just before the hour mark, Manny now patrolling the left flank played a superb pass for the now centre-midfield Osman pushing on a la Cahill and he despatched with some aplomb past Carroll.
A goal to the good from a great move signalled the end of the football and the rest of the game was played out with us trying to give nothing away which produced some hairy self-inflicted moments to make us utter more less-than-complementary remarks toward certain players ? in fact most of them got a turn.
The manager then took a hand in things that really baffled me. Earlier in the season he had tried Jags in midfield with unspectacular results that led to posters remarking he was out of his depth and, lo and behold, he put him there again and he reinforced the opinion that he really is out of his depth in midfield. Why didnt the manager put him to rightback and move Neville to midfield or indeed use the centre-midfielder on the bench, Gravesen, to replace Manny? If the manager really doesn't fancy Gravesen at all why have him on the bench?
All of this probably proves that I know nothing of the modern game but I will say that I pay a fortune to watch it and at the moment it is trying and no real explanation coming from anywhere.
Football seems to be a closed shop among the proffessionals who expect us to be the twelfth man and blindly cheer the team on whilst they hold the view that we havn't a clue what really goes on in the club and all the difficulties they encounter and then moan and whinge when we express displeasure at what we are seeing with our own eyes. Well I can tell them that we really appreciate the efforts to get us to within six games of either fourth or fifth place and yet won't take kindly to them playing this washed out, "I'm tired, it's been a long season" type of performance. If we must fail then I want to see it done with some pride and fight and a real effort to recognise the colour of shirt being worn on any given day.
Our remaining fixtures are not that easy but the teams we will meet have played roughly the same number of games as us ? some more, some less ? but it shouldn't just be our excuse for not performing. Fourth is not out of the question but I would settle for fifth based on a comment I heared from a commentator just before kick off in the Arsenal v Liverpool game, Arsenal had made FIVE changes and Liverpool EIGHT changes from the previous CL game. We just can't match that at present.
The next Board meeting should digest these facts and realize how near we are, yet in the same breath realize how far we are away from that 'Sky Four' when it comes to competing on all fronts year-in, year-out. Plenty of building work for the manager to do in the Summer and I have no doubt the Board will provide what they can in a prudent fashion to ensure club viability first and team building second. I fear it may be many a year before we can finance a squad that affords FIVE to EIGHT changes to the team at this stage of the season without significantly weakening the team.
Still I can live with regular top five/six finishes and the odd good run in cup competitions until the right kind of big money investment becomes a reallity. May it be sooner rather than later.
Today my MotM was Carsley yet I thought the most accomplished player out there was their No 40 Ghaly. Two further points: (1) Do you think the manager may consider someone other than Arteta take dead ball kicks on some occasions? (2) My man in Spain tells me Everton are looking to do business with Real Madrid for the services of Guti to the tune of eight million.
Never a dull moment being a Blue. Brum next... another nail-biter. See you there... UP THE BLUES
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Dreadful game but thankful for the 3 points!
I can’t believe Moyes brought Jags on and put him centre mid and put Osman (my MotM) back on the left wing where he had been invisible.
It just invited pressure. Has Moyes not learnt this?
We were lucky to get a win after that Villa chap had blew it when through on goal. Hopeless.
Major investment needed in the summer, just to keep up with Spurs, Pompey and Villa, who will no doubt spend big.
I can’t believe Moyes brought Jags on and put him centre mid and put Osman (my MotM) back on the left wing where he had been invisible.
It just invited pressure. Has Moyes not learnt this?
We were lucky to get a win after that Villa chap had blew it when through on goal. Hopeless.
Major investment needed in the summer, just to keep up with Spurs, Pompey and Villa, who will no doubt spend big.
Connor, Carsley man of the match, behave yourself he"s shite.
Yes we need some investment in quality players this summer, no doubt about that. But not to keep up with Spurs, Pompey and Villa, we’re ahead of them on the pitch and will continue to be if we can just add 3 to 4 top quality players. But what I really hope is that your sources are right about us wanting to get Guti. That would be fantastic for us, but he’s 31, which seems to go against what Moyes has said he wants to do in bringing in young players. But I would hope he stays open minded and we do sign the guy. Just imagine having to choose between Guti, Fernandes, Cahill and Osman in the center instead of Carsley and Neville.
Manny was our best player today, again getting stronger as the game went on,,,,,and then poor bastard gets subbed!!!!You could see the look on his face when he was about to take his seat on the bench,thinking "I?ve played better and still get took off... what the fuck!!!!". It wouldn?t surprise me if he did turn us down this summer even if we did offer him a contract. From then on we were on the back foot AGAIN against an already relegated side. Finishing with Valente,Carsley, Jag in the midfield,,whats that then, 3 holding midfield players! But all is not lost and were still 5th, 7pts clear and only 3 off 4th. It shows how much we?ve come in the 5 years under Moyes, that were a mite pissed at being 5th, saying that I think we?d be happier being in 5th if the performances were of a lot higher quality,,,,and passion.
COYB!!!
P.S The last month of the season I?m in Thailand, hopefully last nights 6 big Chang during the game is a good omen, so roll on the Birmingham game!!!!
COYB!!!
P.S The last month of the season I?m in Thailand, hopefully last nights 6 big Chang during the game is a good omen, so roll on the Birmingham game!!!!
I stopped watching as Manny’s number came up. Is there a business objective/motto at EFC to actually entertain us ’fans’ who sacrifice personal time and money to watch the game? 3 points yes, but 7 defensive players against Derby?
I usually agree with all Ken Buckley’s reports and again here he is spot on. But I usually disagree with MOST midfielder comments. How can Carsley or Osman be MotM? Neither can pass the ball more than 10 yards. We need a running midfielder and Osman usually ends up on his backside when he runs through. Although Arteta had a bad game today, he is the only quality there
Er Brian, didn’t Osman run through and score yesterday without ending up on his backside?
You say Arteta is the only quality in midfield but the run, first touch and shot from Osman were all technically excellent
You say Arteta is the only quality in midfield but the run, first touch and shot from Osman were all technically excellent
Whilst most ?posts? comment on the ineptitude of our midfield, am I alone in thinking Arteta is still carrying some sort of injury?
He clearly was not playing at 100% of his game yesterday nor has he been (Fiorentina apart) for a few weeks.
If so, Moyes should come clean and say so and it may avoid the nasty scene between the player and sections of the Park End crowd towards the latter end of the match on Sunday when he skewed his centre into the crowd.
Surely now Moyes has recognised and highlited the achilles heel that is our ?lightweight? trio in midfield and make it his number one priority in the summer?
He clearly was not playing at 100% of his game yesterday nor has he been (Fiorentina apart) for a few weeks.
If so, Moyes should come clean and say so and it may avoid the nasty scene between the player and sections of the Park End crowd towards the latter end of the match on Sunday when he skewed his centre into the crowd.
Surely now Moyes has recognised and highlited the achilles heel that is our ?lightweight? trio in midfield and make it his number one priority in the summer?
I think 36,000 fans, including the Derby ones where perplexed by the substitutions.
A poor game all round with one moment of brilliance from Fernandes and a great finish from Osman.
A poor game all round with one moment of brilliance from Fernandes and a great finish from Osman.
Will somebody in blue please tell Mikel Arteta that his free kick and corner delivery is crap. Do we only have one player to take command of a dead ball situation. Baines, Osman, anyone want the responsibility for a change. DM are you blind ? Free kicks are nearly as bad as the hoof ball tactics that we have been subjected to for the last 4 games. Think we will be lucky to maintain 4th spot never mind 3rd spot. No excuses yesterday with two up top but the service supplied was non existent. Hanging on looks like our only hope now until end of the season.
Have to say I also was very befuddled by DM taking Fernandes off.
He was our only real creative spark out there. As mentioned above, his first half losing of possession was certainly not helped by the subpar passing he was receiving. He does appear to be improving, and hope a deal can be struck.
Pip of course repeatedly pulled that longball/bypass our midfield/lose possession lever to no effect. However, overall I think he had a reasonable game, made some decent tackles, and did actually string some passes together along the floor.
Not too much more positive to say. Howard had a good game...hmm, shouldn?t need that against Derby...
He was our only real creative spark out there. As mentioned above, his first half losing of possession was certainly not helped by the subpar passing he was receiving. He does appear to be improving, and hope a deal can be struck.
Pip of course repeatedly pulled that longball/bypass our midfield/lose possession lever to no effect. However, overall I think he had a reasonable game, made some decent tackles, and did actually string some passes together along the floor.
Not too much more positive to say. Howard had a good game...hmm, shouldn?t need that against Derby...
David Barks,
If you seriously think we are ahead of Spurs, Villa and Pompey on the pitch, then you either haven?t watched these teams or you haven?t watched us... I could count on one hand the number of Premier League games we?ve played this season in which we have played a decent standard of football.
We are ahead of these teams on points, because we won a number of games against the run of play.... As for your suggestion that we are ahead of them on the pitch... well, in my opinion that?s simply nonsense.
If you seriously think we are ahead of Spurs, Villa and Pompey on the pitch, then you either haven?t watched these teams or you haven?t watched us... I could count on one hand the number of Premier League games we?ve played this season in which we have played a decent standard of football.
We are ahead of these teams on points, because we won a number of games against the run of play.... As for your suggestion that we are ahead of them on the pitch... well, in my opinion that?s simply nonsense.
Ciaran, ok we didn't play well on yesterday or for a few weeks now but to suggest we are not ahead of Villa, Pompey & Spurs is daft. The league doesn't lie & just remember back to our game against Pompey, they looked good in spells but we beat them 3-1 (I think ha ha) that is a good win to me. Yes they have improved (Pompey especially) and next season may be interesting for a million reasons but this season only a fool would say that outta that bunch (Us, Villa, Pompey, Spurs, City, Blackburn) we have been the best team.
Our bad form is not a recent thing...we’ve been playing inconsistent football from christmas...and games we should have comfortably won before christmas..
Trotting out a cliche such as ’the league doesn’t lie’ ignores the fact that I was refering to Mr Barks comparison of on the pitch displays.
The league doesnt lie in terms of the points teams acrue...but to suggest that the lie is a definitive indicator of the quality of football played by each team, is more than naive....3 years ago we finished 4th, playing some of the most atrocious football i’ve seen..
You mention the pompey match, which more than serves to cement my point. We won that match with a comfortble score but were the second best team on the pitch
If we were ahead of these clubs on the pitch as Mr Barks and yourself suggest, then surely we’d have been the best team on the pitch!
Trotting out a cliche such as ’the league doesn’t lie’ ignores the fact that I was refering to Mr Barks comparison of on the pitch displays.
The league doesnt lie in terms of the points teams acrue...but to suggest that the lie is a definitive indicator of the quality of football played by each team, is more than naive....3 years ago we finished 4th, playing some of the most atrocious football i’ve seen..
You mention the pompey match, which more than serves to cement my point. We won that match with a comfortble score but were the second best team on the pitch
If we were ahead of these clubs on the pitch as Mr Barks and yourself suggest, then surely we’d have been the best team on the pitch!
I think yesterday?s game was a confidence builder; a game aimed at stability and an attempt to ?stop the rot?. My hope is that we will push on from here not unlike how we did against Sunderland in 05-06: we played awfully but snook a late win which lead to a bizarre shift in form. I?m hoping the same occurrs this time around.
Just a quick point about our problems with injuries: Andy van der Meyde. He is injured I know but HOW is he injured? He?s no longer playing reserve games and merely training with the first team. His abilities (albeit abilities we have only seen on a handful of occaisions) would be all too welcome right about now.
Just a quick point about our problems with injuries: Andy van der Meyde. He is injured I know but HOW is he injured? He?s no longer playing reserve games and merely training with the first team. His abilities (albeit abilities we have only seen on a handful of occaisions) would be all too welcome right about now.
Mr Mcglone. The team the whole country decided at the start of the season to end the sky 4 monopoly are currently 20pts behind Everton with 5 games to go. If you want to watch a club who believe they should have a right to be part of the top group, because they spend a shit load of cash and play entertaining football with goals either end, go to the Lane.
Personally i had enough of our regular forays down the bottom before DM came on the scene, and, granted, things could be a bit more skillfull-performance wise, but with the cash we?ve had to spend in the last 5 years which in turn limits the type of player we all want at Goodison, we should look at the plus side of things. I know for a fact too that fans of Pompey, Villa, City, Toon, Man.City and especially Spurs all wished to be were we are in the league at this part of the season.. big spend or no big spend. I am off for a Chang!
Ciaran,
If Spurs have had so many breath taking performances then why are they suffering so far down the table, losing 4-1 to teams like Newcastle. When I say we are better on the pitch I am talking about our results, because in the end that is what matters. I said we need 3 to 4 quality players to stay ahead next season. Compare our defense to theirs, we are head and shoulders better. Compare our midfield when healthy and we have been far more consistent than those other teams. The past month has seen us play our worst football of the season, but before then for most of the rest of the season we were playing some very good football and again getting the results that reflect that in the table. Arsenal can scream all they want about playing beautiful football but at the end of the day they again will probably have nothing to show for it while Manchester United or Chelsea end up with the trophys. And obviously Ramos agrees with me since he has said he plans on getting rid of half the current team.
If Spurs have had so many breath taking performances then why are they suffering so far down the table, losing 4-1 to teams like Newcastle. When I say we are better on the pitch I am talking about our results, because in the end that is what matters. I said we need 3 to 4 quality players to stay ahead next season. Compare our defense to theirs, we are head and shoulders better. Compare our midfield when healthy and we have been far more consistent than those other teams. The past month has seen us play our worst football of the season, but before then for most of the rest of the season we were playing some very good football and again getting the results that reflect that in the table. Arsenal can scream all they want about playing beautiful football but at the end of the day they again will probably have nothing to show for it while Manchester United or Chelsea end up with the trophys. And obviously Ramos agrees with me since he has said he plans on getting rid of half the current team.
It seems some people have problems differentiating between points acrued and how well a team is doing on the pitch..THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!
A Quick glance at that match for more than 10 minutes yesterday and anyone with a brain would have concluded that we were not at the races....we did however get 3 points....does this automatically mean the display on the pitch was good?
And for christ’s sake...is there any chance of stopping this inane tendency towards telling people to go and support another team? Quite frankly it’s the most boring, ill-concieved and moronic suggestion I frequently come across on Everton forums.
You’d think Evertonians would know better.
A Quick glance at that match for more than 10 minutes yesterday and anyone with a brain would have concluded that we were not at the races....we did however get 3 points....does this automatically mean the display on the pitch was good?
And for christ’s sake...is there any chance of stopping this inane tendency towards telling people to go and support another team? Quite frankly it’s the most boring, ill-concieved and moronic suggestion I frequently come across on Everton forums.
You’d think Evertonians would know better.
Ciaran you sound like a newcastle fan......as long as its entertaining its ok????
I wanna win, then with winning comes confidence, with confidence comes a better level of performance as the players are not afraid to try stuff. We are not Man U or arsenal we have some very good players with some average players who all work very hard for each other and that has done wonders for us, hopefully the level of quality will rise and we will keep the hard work mentality like the top sides but to suggest (again!) that any of the sides you have mentioned are better than us is laughable and suggests to me that that you dont know what your on about??
I wanna win, then with winning comes confidence, with confidence comes a better level of performance as the players are not afraid to try stuff. We are not Man U or arsenal we have some very good players with some average players who all work very hard for each other and that has done wonders for us, hopefully the level of quality will rise and we will keep the hard work mentality like the top sides but to suggest (again!) that any of the sides you have mentioned are better than us is laughable and suggests to me that that you dont know what your on about??
David,
If you are refering to our results then perhaps it would be better to say that, because results are not the same as performances on the pitch.
And you're right, results are what matters in the end, but the caveat to that is that if you tend to play rubbish football then fluking results against the run of play will not last too long.
If you are refering to our results then perhaps it would be better to say that, because results are not the same as performances on the pitch.
And you're right, results are what matters in the end, but the caveat to that is that if you tend to play rubbish football then fluking results against the run of play will not last too long.
Good post Ken sums up the game well. We had our moments to put the game to bed in the first half but as the half went on i think we were nervy about getting a result re Fulham. I think everybody has an opinion about players and the way they play in the team but the some of the Park End faithful gave abuse to Mikel late in the second half I thought was disgraceful. Admittedly the lad had a poor game by his standards but look back over 2 years who has been better than him. 2 players of the year awards, goals, goal asists what more can you ask and he?s probably playing with an injury as well.
HE?S THE BEST LITTLE SPANIARD I KNOW anyway
HE?S THE BEST LITTLE SPANIARD I KNOW anyway
Personally I agree with Ciar?an our standard of football i.e. ball retention, passing, movement off the ball and technique is generally, over 90 minutes of play is lower than most of the top sides in the Premier League.
That?s not to say that they are better sides than us(they are clearly not.... just take a look at the league table) but for a team with quality players and that have finished in relatively high league positions over the last four seasons or so we do play pretty turgid, uninspiring football.
I?m not expecting Man Utd or Arsenal style football but if we could ally the attractive attacking ethos that teams such as Spurs or Newcastle employ with our solid defensive base, team work and workrate attract more money into the club and build a bigger stadium then perhaps breaking into the "Big Four" might become a reality someday
Some posters have mentioned clubs like Spurs and Pompey. Would I swap our season for Spurs? Perhaps not but they have finished in 5th place the last two seasons running and will probably finish 11th this year and have won the Carling Cup, not bad.
Would I swap our position with Pompey? Possibly as they will probably finish 6th maybe even 5th if we keep playing as we currently are and they're favourites to win the FA Cup this season so I don?t think we?re quite as far ahead of these teams as some might think.
Newcastle have had a couple of bad seasons but outside of the "Big Four" they have had higher league finishes in the Premiership than any other team and will probably be in the mix for Uefa Cup spots next year as well.
We are having a good season and have progressed significantly since Moyes took over. The football has improved but its painfully obvious that work still needs to be done on the training ground in terms of attacking cohesion and joined-up football before we?re ready to step-up to the next level.
That?s not to say that they are better sides than us(they are clearly not.... just take a look at the league table) but for a team with quality players and that have finished in relatively high league positions over the last four seasons or so we do play pretty turgid, uninspiring football.
I?m not expecting Man Utd or Arsenal style football but if we could ally the attractive attacking ethos that teams such as Spurs or Newcastle employ with our solid defensive base, team work and workrate attract more money into the club and build a bigger stadium then perhaps breaking into the "Big Four" might become a reality someday
Some posters have mentioned clubs like Spurs and Pompey. Would I swap our season for Spurs? Perhaps not but they have finished in 5th place the last two seasons running and will probably finish 11th this year and have won the Carling Cup, not bad.
Would I swap our position with Pompey? Possibly as they will probably finish 6th maybe even 5th if we keep playing as we currently are and they're favourites to win the FA Cup this season so I don?t think we?re quite as far ahead of these teams as some might think.
Newcastle have had a couple of bad seasons but outside of the "Big Four" they have had higher league finishes in the Premiership than any other team and will probably be in the mix for Uefa Cup spots next year as well.
We are having a good season and have progressed significantly since Moyes took over. The football has improved but its painfully obvious that work still needs to be done on the training ground in terms of attacking cohesion and joined-up football before we?re ready to step-up to the next level.
All posts seem to be saying the same thing really:
Results count.
We?d like to be playing more attractive football.
We are concerned about the likes of Spurs,Pompey,Villa,Blackburn and Newcastle.
We have made progress under Moyes with regard to a number of these issues and they have all coincided with bringing in/developing better players and trying to stay ahead of the game tactically.
As an earlier contributor said results breed confidence breeds better football breeds better results and more entertaining football.
We have seen MORE better performances this year but we?ve also seen some very poor ones.
I think we gave been affected by the following:
Losing players to Afcon at a key time.
The Boards inability to raise sufficent funds to not have to go trawling for inconsistent bargain buys.
Loss of fitness/confidence of key players at the wrong time.
Over exertion in the first 2/3 of the season traditionally leaves Everton players in particular fatigued towards the end of the season.
I dont know all the answers but I believe supporters have a big role to play encouraging and supporting the players to the finishing line instead of berating every mistake and doing exactly what we are accusing the players of doing = Throwing the towel in before the last round.
The thing the players need most when they are tired/carrying knocks etc. are the fans Vociferous support not a gasp or an OHH when they make a mistake.
They do not do it deliberately and they are the same players who got us where we are close on RS heels and a place in Europe beckoning.
Get behind the lads!!
Results count.
We?d like to be playing more attractive football.
We are concerned about the likes of Spurs,Pompey,Villa,Blackburn and Newcastle.
We have made progress under Moyes with regard to a number of these issues and they have all coincided with bringing in/developing better players and trying to stay ahead of the game tactically.
As an earlier contributor said results breed confidence breeds better football breeds better results and more entertaining football.
We have seen MORE better performances this year but we?ve also seen some very poor ones.
I think we gave been affected by the following:
Losing players to Afcon at a key time.
The Boards inability to raise sufficent funds to not have to go trawling for inconsistent bargain buys.
Loss of fitness/confidence of key players at the wrong time.
Over exertion in the first 2/3 of the season traditionally leaves Everton players in particular fatigued towards the end of the season.
I dont know all the answers but I believe supporters have a big role to play encouraging and supporting the players to the finishing line instead of berating every mistake and doing exactly what we are accusing the players of doing = Throwing the towel in before the last round.
The thing the players need most when they are tired/carrying knocks etc. are the fans Vociferous support not a gasp or an OHH when they make a mistake.
They do not do it deliberately and they are the same players who got us where we are close on RS heels and a place in Europe beckoning.
Get behind the lads!!
Basically, we are still sufffering the anti-climax from the Euro exit with a slight lack of confidence, which is completely unjustified, but unavoidable... Our best creative players are tired - particulalry those who have at times really turned it on this year - Cahill, Pienaar, Ossie and Arteta ? not forgeting the great Yak - whose goals have made even 5th place possible.
It?s just a fact of life that with our financial resources we can't afford the depth of squad to compete with the (current) top 4. We need all our best players to be fit and hungry to compete with them and at this stage of the season it really makes the difference .... Moyes has the makings of a really good team - that?s miles ahead of the likes of Villa/Pompey/BBurn and will compete with top 4 - when they are fit/fresh and next season should be even better, it?s been a great season!! Cheers
Hope the Guti rumour isnt true. He can be exceptional but is very tempramental and getting on a bit now.
Id rather go for someone 10years younger...
Id rather go for someone 10years younger...
Not to get too far off topic, but have there been any reports of how much EFC have earned from our season in Europe?
AND how much will be available to spend on new players
AND how much will be available to spend on new players
I agree we did not entertain, in fact, since the Italians, have we turned up? But to be honest, if playing like that got us the points for fourth, we would all take it. I can't see it though... is Faddy fit to face us? Hope not!
A couple of issues..
The fallacy of tired players: I do not believe that its acceptable for someone whose life is devoted to fitness for them to claim tiredness as reasoning for not performing... Thay play a maximum of about 60 games in a year..thats little over 2 hours a week...
Now if they were working 60 hours down a mine...then perhpas they?d have a point. ...As it is find ?tiredness? a pretty lame excuse for a professional sportsman.
Secondly, the fallacy that results breed confidence which breeds better football....We?ve had a hell of a lot of results against the run of play this season, ultimately it hasn?t lead to us producing better football. The thing which actually produces better football is better footballers...not utility players, squad players or Phil Nevilles..its about time we stopped scrapping the bottom of the barrel with our transfers...
As impressive as what Davey does with these average players..think what he could actually do with quality footballers...
It?s time to change the mindset of accepting mediocre football (becaue lets be honest our team is on the whole very average!) and demand what we actually want... good quality players at Goodison. We?re never gonna be arsenal, but is it asking too much for players who can consistently pass the ball to their own team and even dribble without falling over?
I hope this standoff with Moyes and his contract is actually over the money the team needs rather than some token posturing.
The fallacy of tired players: I do not believe that its acceptable for someone whose life is devoted to fitness for them to claim tiredness as reasoning for not performing... Thay play a maximum of about 60 games in a year..thats little over 2 hours a week...
Now if they were working 60 hours down a mine...then perhpas they?d have a point. ...As it is find ?tiredness? a pretty lame excuse for a professional sportsman.
Secondly, the fallacy that results breed confidence which breeds better football....We?ve had a hell of a lot of results against the run of play this season, ultimately it hasn?t lead to us producing better football. The thing which actually produces better football is better footballers...not utility players, squad players or Phil Nevilles..its about time we stopped scrapping the bottom of the barrel with our transfers...
As impressive as what Davey does with these average players..think what he could actually do with quality footballers...
It?s time to change the mindset of accepting mediocre football (becaue lets be honest our team is on the whole very average!) and demand what we actually want... good quality players at Goodison. We?re never gonna be arsenal, but is it asking too much for players who can consistently pass the ball to their own team and even dribble without falling over?
I hope this standoff with Moyes and his contract is actually over the money the team needs rather than some token posturing.
Ciaran my friend, dispute it all you want, but it occurs. I suppose it could be worded differently, because they are not ?tired? it just that it means they cant maintain the sharpness & pace that they did earlier in the season. You can break it down all you want, but it is a fact that players do get tired. the proof is in the league, biggest squads loaded with quality have more success than smaller squads with quality.
Then how can you say that confidence leading to better football is a fallacy, just this season when we went on a little run after the derby we were destroying teams & playing some great stuff and scoring some superb goals especially in Europe???? your wrong on that one, its no fallacy its true. Not at Everton at any club, its undisputable that a confident player is a better player if you had any knowledge of the game you wouldnt even argue that!!
Your only redeeming sentence in that nonsense comment is about Davey, I agree. If this is what he does with average footballers then imagine what he?d do with top players. I just hope he gets that opportunity at this club.
Then how can you say that confidence leading to better football is a fallacy, just this season when we went on a little run after the derby we were destroying teams & playing some great stuff and scoring some superb goals especially in Europe???? your wrong on that one, its no fallacy its true. Not at Everton at any club, its undisputable that a confident player is a better player if you had any knowledge of the game you wouldnt even argue that!!
Your only redeeming sentence in that nonsense comment is about Davey, I agree. If this is what he does with average footballers then imagine what he?d do with top players. I just hope he gets that opportunity at this club.
’Bigger squads loaded with quality have more success than smaller squads with quality’?
For a start this statement doesnt really equate to anything..it infact its gibberish that qualifies nothing!....It may be true (in fact its pretty bloody obvious) to suggest that teams with more players and better quality players have more success, in fact, that was my point above. We need quality!
But to suggest that we are a smaller club with quality that equates to one of the bigger clubs is just pie in the sky.
We are an average side and have played average football for a mid table premiership side this season. That is a fact. Our lofty position is not a result of our quality of play, it is a result of our defensive style and couter acting prowess.
To suggest that we were destroying teams is another flight of fancy....and yes europe was good (in part), but lets not forget we were playing unheard of teams from second and third rate leagues..you may wish to eulogise about europe, but lets not overhype what it was!
P.S If you think my dismissal of confidence as an elixir for improving a players capability is wrong (or even based on a lack of knowledge)...then lets have some evidence...confidence may be a critical factor in team unity and other factors, but to suggest it has a significant impact on a players inherent talent..
Well, lets just say I think its a load of bollocks....
For a start this statement doesnt really equate to anything..it infact its gibberish that qualifies nothing!....It may be true (in fact its pretty bloody obvious) to suggest that teams with more players and better quality players have more success, in fact, that was my point above. We need quality!
But to suggest that we are a smaller club with quality that equates to one of the bigger clubs is just pie in the sky.
We are an average side and have played average football for a mid table premiership side this season. That is a fact. Our lofty position is not a result of our quality of play, it is a result of our defensive style and couter acting prowess.
To suggest that we were destroying teams is another flight of fancy....and yes europe was good (in part), but lets not forget we were playing unheard of teams from second and third rate leagues..you may wish to eulogise about europe, but lets not overhype what it was!
P.S If you think my dismissal of confidence as an elixir for improving a players capability is wrong (or even based on a lack of knowledge)...then lets have some evidence...confidence may be a critical factor in team unity and other factors, but to suggest it has a significant impact on a players inherent talent..
Well, lets just say I think its a load of bollocks....
OK, that sentence was poorly written, but the rest of your very articulate & excellently written comment just further proves that you have never played the game & you have no understanding of the game either. And since when has 4th/5th been mid-table??
My point was we have a small squad with 1 or 2 top class players, supplemented by 3/4 good players with a lot of hard working yet overall average players as that is all we can afford at moment.
Whereas Man U & Chelsea have top class players in most area?s of the pitch, sometimes two for each position as they have the resources to be able to do that.
I?m sorry if I got your goat a little bit with my last comment, you?ve proper gone on the defensive here!! ha ha.... but if you ever decide to watch football or play it and not read about it or play it on a computer then you may see what I?m talking about but until then, hasta luago mi amigo
My point was we have a small squad with 1 or 2 top class players, supplemented by 3/4 good players with a lot of hard working yet overall average players as that is all we can afford at moment.
Whereas Man U & Chelsea have top class players in most area?s of the pitch, sometimes two for each position as they have the resources to be able to do that.
I?m sorry if I got your goat a little bit with my last comment, you?ve proper gone on the defensive here!! ha ha.... but if you ever decide to watch football or play it and not read about it or play it on a computer then you may see what I?m talking about but until then, hasta luago mi amigo
Trotting out the ’you’ve never played the game’ line is a very clever way of substantiating your claim....after all evidence is really for fools...
So here’s my evidence...we’ve won a hell of a lot of games this season....NEVILLE HAS NOT GOT BETTER!
In fact, i’d suggest theres not one player on the team who has got better due to our wins...how does your theory stack up in light of this little nugget?
And youre right, I haven’t played football at premiership level, if I had I wouldn’t be on here moaning about Everton.....I’d be on a boat somewhere moaning about how tired i am!
But i doubt you have either.
But I have played other sports at high enough levels to know that, for instance, if my team won a few hurling games, that this would certainly not increase my individual talent with a hurl...my team may be brimming with confidence which is always a good thing, but to suggest it has an effect on individual talent...well, i’ll not repeat i think about that. The only thing that will slightly change skill levels is practice and even then this won’t have a massive impact on the original talent.
p.s I never said we were mid table, I said we were a mid table team....and realistically we are, along with about 5 or 6 other teams!
Perhaps it’s time to stop looking for excuses and view things with a modicum of realism.
So here’s my evidence...we’ve won a hell of a lot of games this season....NEVILLE HAS NOT GOT BETTER!
In fact, i’d suggest theres not one player on the team who has got better due to our wins...how does your theory stack up in light of this little nugget?
And youre right, I haven’t played football at premiership level, if I had I wouldn’t be on here moaning about Everton.....I’d be on a boat somewhere moaning about how tired i am!
But i doubt you have either.
But I have played other sports at high enough levels to know that, for instance, if my team won a few hurling games, that this would certainly not increase my individual talent with a hurl...my team may be brimming with confidence which is always a good thing, but to suggest it has an effect on individual talent...well, i’ll not repeat i think about that. The only thing that will slightly change skill levels is practice and even then this won’t have a massive impact on the original talent.
p.s I never said we were mid table, I said we were a mid table team....and realistically we are, along with about 5 or 6 other teams!
Perhaps it’s time to stop looking for excuses and view things with a modicum of realism.
p.s i wasn’t getting on the defensive mate..I just wish I could muster the optimism that you seem to be able to do...
Unfortunately i’m from the Everton camp whose glass is half empty!
COYB.
Unfortunately i’m from the Everton camp whose glass is half empty!
COYB.
Ciaran,
Have you ever heard the term, "getting your touch back"? That is all to do with a play buiding up their confidence which improves their first touch and subsequent touches. A player that has just returned from injury, or spell out for whatever reason, will take time to get his touch back and build confidence. So, to say that confidence does not improve a players game is just daft. It’s not practice, as they can do it, just that confidence allows you to try it.
Just another thing, have you ever heard of a fella called Bunter? If not, don’t worry, was just a thought I had.
Have you ever heard the term, "getting your touch back"? That is all to do with a play buiding up their confidence which improves their first touch and subsequent touches. A player that has just returned from injury, or spell out for whatever reason, will take time to get his touch back and build confidence. So, to say that confidence does not improve a players game is just daft. It’s not practice, as they can do it, just that confidence allows you to try it.
Just another thing, have you ever heard of a fella called Bunter? If not, don’t worry, was just a thought I had.
Ciaran,
Not quite sure which of your pessimistic ravings to attack first but anyone who claims that confidence doesn’t affect players, players shouldn’t tire if they play only a few hours a week or that squad sizes are irrelevant is lacking somewhat in their understanding of football.
I can agree that recently the standard of our football has been depressing to say the least. But we have played some cracking stuff this season. For 45 mins we completely outplayed Arsenal. We absolutely battered a team that is 4th Serie A. We have scored some beautiful goals.
How else can you explain this fluctuation in our teams form if through recourse to matters such as fitness, confidence and momentum?
On our day we are capable of great football and competing with the best. What we need is a few more players to allow for the toil and injuries that such long seasons are bound to bring.
Not quite sure which of your pessimistic ravings to attack first but anyone who claims that confidence doesn’t affect players, players shouldn’t tire if they play only a few hours a week or that squad sizes are irrelevant is lacking somewhat in their understanding of football.
I can agree that recently the standard of our football has been depressing to say the least. But we have played some cracking stuff this season. For 45 mins we completely outplayed Arsenal. We absolutely battered a team that is 4th Serie A. We have scored some beautiful goals.
How else can you explain this fluctuation in our teams form if through recourse to matters such as fitness, confidence and momentum?
On our day we are capable of great football and competing with the best. What we need is a few more players to allow for the toil and injuries that such long seasons are bound to bring.
Sam,
The specific point being addressed was that winning matches and increased confidence increases an individual footballers quality.
I think this is an overated princinple to some extent...and you only have to look at us this season to see that! I think its an insignificant factor on an individual player (although i admit it may have greater effect on a team unit)...the premium example being Beattie..We all heard the excuses that his confidence was low...I didn’t buy it..he was just out of his depth.
Also, players shouldn’t tire if they’re playing only a few hours a week (injuries aside)...or they should at least be able to recover significantly within a few days to repeat the performance.. there’s a significant degree of literature on body rate/rehydration recovery that supports this.
As for your suggestion that I implied that squad sizes are unimportant...I did nothing of the sort!
Bluenose.....getting ones touch back? Is this another excuse that’s been invented for a footballers inconsistency of form?
If a players coming back from injury then that’s a sepearate issue and it’s well known that they need practice, its a matter of physical conditioning rather than increasing their ability (dependent on the injury).
I think you’ve both missed the point I was making...winning matches will not significantly increase a teams ability on the ball...only better players will do that to the degree that is necessary!
If you disgree i’ll gladly take submissions on which of our players have improved this (mostly) ’winning’ season. Otherwise you could just repeat ad nauseum that i know nothing about football..it’s a compelling argument after all.
The specific point being addressed was that winning matches and increased confidence increases an individual footballers quality.
I think this is an overated princinple to some extent...and you only have to look at us this season to see that! I think its an insignificant factor on an individual player (although i admit it may have greater effect on a team unit)...the premium example being Beattie..We all heard the excuses that his confidence was low...I didn’t buy it..he was just out of his depth.
Also, players shouldn’t tire if they’re playing only a few hours a week (injuries aside)...or they should at least be able to recover significantly within a few days to repeat the performance.. there’s a significant degree of literature on body rate/rehydration recovery that supports this.
As for your suggestion that I implied that squad sizes are unimportant...I did nothing of the sort!
Bluenose.....getting ones touch back? Is this another excuse that’s been invented for a footballers inconsistency of form?
If a players coming back from injury then that’s a sepearate issue and it’s well known that they need practice, its a matter of physical conditioning rather than increasing their ability (dependent on the injury).
I think you’ve both missed the point I was making...winning matches will not significantly increase a teams ability on the ball...only better players will do that to the degree that is necessary!
If you disgree i’ll gladly take submissions on which of our players have improved this (mostly) ’winning’ season. Otherwise you could just repeat ad nauseum that i know nothing about football..it’s a compelling argument after all.
believe it or not i think moysie is quite limited in his view of attacking football, he seems to think we can put out a great defence and hit teams on the break, similar to what the rs used to do when michael owen was playing for them.
if he got in an attack minded coach to help him with the offensive side of the game and possibly 3 quality midfield players the rest would be ok
the defence is ok, even phil nev would look better in a defence that wasnt under so much pressure
the yak and aj would look great if supported by an attacking competant midfield.
so perhaps we need a second coach as much as anything else... oh and maybe a little more height in the team..
coyb
if he got in an attack minded coach to help him with the offensive side of the game and possibly 3 quality midfield players the rest would be ok
the defence is ok, even phil nev would look better in a defence that wasnt under so much pressure
the yak and aj would look great if supported by an attacking competant midfield.
so perhaps we need a second coach as much as anything else... oh and maybe a little more height in the team..
coyb
Ciaran, it is interesting to hear your points of view but when you refute confidence having an effect on a player or saying players shouldnt be tired or should be able to maintain the same sharpness & fitness levels is not an opinion its incorrect, this is PROVEN to be a factor in any sport, why do you think the modern game employs so many doctors, condition experts, diet consultants physio’s & sport psychologists???
Your very cynical about excuses used for sportsman/footballers as shown by the way you laughed off the notion that a player needs to get his touch back as being an excuse for poor form, very cynical!
Basically you made a point up the article and people have disagreed with you and shown reasons why, doesnt matter how well you write your responses, it looks like you’ve been proven wrong or you could just chalk this one off as a difference of opinion at best mate...
Your very cynical about excuses used for sportsman/footballers as shown by the way you laughed off the notion that a player needs to get his touch back as being an excuse for poor form, very cynical!
Basically you made a point up the article and people have disagreed with you and shown reasons why, doesnt matter how well you write your responses, it looks like you’ve been proven wrong or you could just chalk this one off as a difference of opinion at best mate...
John,
I have absolutely no problem accepting differences of opinion, it’s what makes the world go around.
What I don’t accept is the presumptive premise that ’You know nothing about football’ ...in any way amounts to a coherent argument that concludes i’ve ’been proven wrong’.
I’ve asked you to tell me who has benefited in terms of improvement in quality from our wins..you have refused to do so...I know its not a conclusive ’all men are socrates’ argument...but it would go some way to evidencing your initial suggestion that all we have to do to improve the quality of our players is to win a few games!
The subsequent input from other posters have ranged from misunderstanding the point in contention, to plain fabrication...for instance, it was implied that i had suggested that squad size means nothing when I clearly said nothing of the sort.
To suggest that ’getting one’s touch back’ (outside of injuries and practice) is a matter of science, well i don’t agree with it, and I haven’t come across any literature that supports such a belief.
Confidence may have a slight impact on performance but to suggest all we need to do to significantly improve our quality is win a few games.....well, I think there’s a more tried and tested way of doing that.
I have absolutely no problem accepting differences of opinion, it’s what makes the world go around.
What I don’t accept is the presumptive premise that ’You know nothing about football’ ...in any way amounts to a coherent argument that concludes i’ve ’been proven wrong’.
I’ve asked you to tell me who has benefited in terms of improvement in quality from our wins..you have refused to do so...I know its not a conclusive ’all men are socrates’ argument...but it would go some way to evidencing your initial suggestion that all we have to do to improve the quality of our players is to win a few games!
The subsequent input from other posters have ranged from misunderstanding the point in contention, to plain fabrication...for instance, it was implied that i had suggested that squad size means nothing when I clearly said nothing of the sort.
To suggest that ’getting one’s touch back’ (outside of injuries and practice) is a matter of science, well i don’t agree with it, and I haven’t come across any literature that supports such a belief.
Confidence may have a slight impact on performance but to suggest all we need to do to significantly improve our quality is win a few games.....well, I think there’s a more tried and tested way of doing that.
Was a little harsh what I said, but I couldnt put it any other way as the only way you could know what I was saying to be true is if you’d played competetive football at some level, not premiership but a decent level. I am nowhere near as good as yourself in explaining my points but it is a fact that confidence affects your form and over the course of a season you will become jaded & lose sharpness etc. Surely looking at Arsenal’s recent wobble and the shites recent resurgence shows what resting players can do as opposed to playing same players week in week out, both these sides will finish below Man U & Chelsea who seem to have the best balance of resting players and playing strongest XI’s.
In response to another point you’ve made when we went on our best run of season, when we broke records for number of games on trot won and unbeaten record was also broken players like Pienaar, Osman, the Yak, Carsley and Jagielka in particular looked absolutley fantastic. Yet these same players in recent weeks have looked nowhere near the player they were then. Its no coincedence, its a combination of the players having played a lot of football and with a couple of recent results/performances and seeing what we have to lose the confidence is not what it was.
On the other hand Manny Fernandes who has been shite since return seems to have gotten himself fit and is showing what he can do, as down to a lack of football and a bad time in valencia he wasnt sharp or fit but is now showing signs of what we say ’getting his touch back’
As I say its just an opinion but would be interested to see your thoughts pal...
In response to another point you’ve made when we went on our best run of season, when we broke records for number of games on trot won and unbeaten record was also broken players like Pienaar, Osman, the Yak, Carsley and Jagielka in particular looked absolutley fantastic. Yet these same players in recent weeks have looked nowhere near the player they were then. Its no coincedence, its a combination of the players having played a lot of football and with a couple of recent results/performances and seeing what we have to lose the confidence is not what it was.
On the other hand Manny Fernandes who has been shite since return seems to have gotten himself fit and is showing what he can do, as down to a lack of football and a bad time in valencia he wasnt sharp or fit but is now showing signs of what we say ’getting his touch back’
As I say its just an opinion but would be interested to see your thoughts pal...
I take your point, and I?m not completely dismissing the effect of confidence or fatigue...
However I don?t think they can be afforded the relevance in relation to our displays that you do. There?s a higher factor at work in our problem, and that is the quality of the players we have to start with..this is our lowest common denominator...not fatigue or confidence.
As for your examples of players in our team that have improved with our winning streak...to be honest i can?t really accept it.
Osman had his best form at the start of the season..and became less effective with the increasing number of games we played and won.
Jags, was played in a midfield role that he clearly has no ability for at the start of the season ,and only started to improve (by the way, i?m still not convinced that he?s anything more than a central defence bench player in our squad) once he was moved to centre back...this was evidenced on sunday when he was put back into midfield and he looked like a lost child.
The Yak has been consistently good all season in what he does, which is putting the ball in the net when he has a chance (sitter on sunday aside).
and ...Carsley has been consistent all season, playing reasoanbly good football (albeit a little limited).
So, all in all, I can?t really agree that theres been any positive change in those players due to our winning form.
It?s hardly an exact science so I wouldn?t expect anyone to take this as gospel..but when we were winning we put in a lot of below standard displays in Europe and in the league... players like Arteta, Pienaar and Lescott all had stumbles in their form...
I think we need to accept our limitations and addressed them, because I think Moyes has achieved the pinnacle of ability out of the limited players we have at our disposal.
However I don?t think they can be afforded the relevance in relation to our displays that you do. There?s a higher factor at work in our problem, and that is the quality of the players we have to start with..this is our lowest common denominator...not fatigue or confidence.
As for your examples of players in our team that have improved with our winning streak...to be honest i can?t really accept it.
Osman had his best form at the start of the season..and became less effective with the increasing number of games we played and won.
Jags, was played in a midfield role that he clearly has no ability for at the start of the season ,and only started to improve (by the way, i?m still not convinced that he?s anything more than a central defence bench player in our squad) once he was moved to centre back...this was evidenced on sunday when he was put back into midfield and he looked like a lost child.
The Yak has been consistently good all season in what he does, which is putting the ball in the net when he has a chance (sitter on sunday aside).
and ...Carsley has been consistent all season, playing reasoanbly good football (albeit a little limited).
So, all in all, I can?t really agree that theres been any positive change in those players due to our winning form.
It?s hardly an exact science so I wouldn?t expect anyone to take this as gospel..but when we were winning we put in a lot of below standard displays in Europe and in the league... players like Arteta, Pienaar and Lescott all had stumbles in their form...
I think we need to accept our limitations and addressed them, because I think Moyes has achieved the pinnacle of ability out of the limited players we have at our disposal.
I?ll agree to disagree on a few of your points especially about the players, Carsley in particular, he is looking poor at the minute, not in the right areas, giving ball away, looks very slow in covering ground. As opposed to earlier in the season when he truly was Mr Consistency.
But I don't wanna get sidetracked, glad we kept it civil, it was on the verge at one point!! Ha ha... but we shall agree to have our opinions and hopefully clash/agree on some other threads but for now ladies and gentlemen the only way this one will be settled is via a duel and I?ve left my pistol in the saloon.
But I don't wanna get sidetracked, glad we kept it civil, it was on the verge at one point!! Ha ha... but we shall agree to have our opinions and hopefully clash/agree on some other threads but for now ladies and gentlemen the only way this one will be settled is via a duel and I?ve left my pistol in the saloon.
I should have warned you that my writing style is always a little confrontational, even though I?m not intending to be...
Glad to have been part of this discussion.
p.s I as being slightly generous about carsley....secondary to Neville, he is next in need of changing..and i can guarantee you that once he?s changed, and if that change is for a player of quality...then it will make a hell of a difference to our midfield...
Glad to have been part of this discussion.
p.s I as being slightly generous about carsley....secondary to Neville, he is next in need of changing..and i can guarantee you that once he?s changed, and if that change is for a player of quality...then it will make a hell of a difference to our midfield...
Clearly Ken you watch a different type of game from me. Carsley was decent (in the context of Arteta and Yakubu having a stinker) and Leon Osman was the only decent player in a Blue shirt. If you think Manny had a good game then you must have arrived at about 4.05 pm because his first half contribution was negligible to say the least - it was only good in the sense that he played twice as well in the 2nd half. Credit to AJ for his effort and Carsley who was at least able to join the few attacks we had. Joleon and Joey were so-so (Joleon made a right ricket of a clearance as well).
it all depends what you see in a player - if you are looking for Leon Osman to be world class then don’t bother - if you are looking for someone to work their backside off (remember Fiorentina, home, perhaps?) then he’s your man - there’s no surprise in the fact that he’s the one player Moyesie hardly ever substitutes. You should appreciate his contribution not denegrate it - for sure there are better players out there in our team but he is a valuable component in our side.
it all depends what you see in a player - if you are looking for Leon Osman to be world class then don’t bother - if you are looking for someone to work their backside off (remember Fiorentina, home, perhaps?) then he’s your man - there’s no surprise in the fact that he’s the one player Moyesie hardly ever substitutes. You should appreciate his contribution not denegrate it - for sure there are better players out there in our team but he is a valuable component in our side.
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Personally I thought Carsley was really crap today and is the current weak link in our midfield. He’s slow, he never looks for the ball and he doesn’t win enough tackles for a so called defensive midfielder. I think if there’s a position that needs strengthening its defensive midfield. I like Cars and he’s been an excellent servant to this club but we need an upgrade.
I thought our best players where Osman, Baines and Fernandes. Who despite being average where the best of a very poor bunch of players.
The dead ball situation pisses me off. Surely the likes of Osman, Baines, Fernandes and Pienaar are all capable of taking a free kick. Arteta strolls over to every free kick and 9 times out of 10 delivers a poor ball. A bit of rotation would be nice.