Column Three Choices for Everton Trevor Skempton 16/08/2007 150comments | Jump to last With just a week to go before the close of the ballot on the Kirkby proposal, there are three main options facing the club in its need to make long overdue investment in a larger and more modern stadium. The three main possibilities for stadium development are [1] out-of-town, being considered in partnership with Tesco and Knowsley Council, [2] expansion and modernisation of Goodison Park, and [3] central, represented by the Bestway site, off Scotland Road in Everton. The Club should investigate all three, yet they have been locked into an ?exclusivity agreement? with Tesco and Knowsley for many months. A ?no? vote to Kirkby is necessary to guarantee a full and proper appraisal of the options. Kirkby No English club of Everton?s size and stature have ever taken the out-of-town option. It was considered and rejected by Newcastle in favour of redeveloping their city centre site. Chelsea and Tottenham remain firmly rooted in their inner London boroughs. Arsenal have built a new stadium close to their old ground. Manchester City have moved to a new stadium close to the city centre. Aston Villa and Manchester United have developed their inner-city sites. The nearest comparison to the Kirkby proposal is Bolton Wanderers? Reebok Stadium, but can anyone seriously argue that they are better placed as a regional attraction than, say, Manchester City? In terms of accessibility for supporters from the Liverpool City Region and North Wales, as well as trains from elsewhere, the city centre cannot be beaten. Article continues below video content That is why Grosvenor are developing there, and the Theatres, the Cathedrals, the Museums and the Universities have no plans to move out of town. The Kirkby option seems to me to be both short-sighted and reckless, removing the club from a historic inner-city rivalry that is unique in World Football. Misgivings over the location have been compounded by the images being used by the club to promote the move. The proposal seems to be a cross between Ewood Park [Blackburn] and Ibrox [Glasgow Rangers, but without their fine old main stand, designed by Archibald Leitch, the architect of the historic stands at Goodison]. Most new stadia are lacking character and atmosphere, when they should be designed with the skill and care that would be applied to a great theatre or opera house. However, even by the standards of other new grounds, the Kirkby proposal looks bland. Goodison Park The above sketches give an indication of how a phased development would work in principle. Most construction would be behind the existing structures, allowing the initial 48,000 capacity to be maintained as a minimum during subsequent phases of construction, up to an eventual maximum of 72,000, subject to appropriate transport arrangements being made, in conjunction with the development of the New Anfield. Goodison Park could be redeveloped into a large modern stadium, whilst retaining its most historic elements. This could make it once again one of the finest grounds in the world, and a source of pilgrimage for football fans. The club would need the support of the local community in Walton and the City Council to make modest extensions of the site across Bullens Road and Goodison Road, but with this cooperation, the process need not be anything like as difficult as the club have stated. Development would be by incremental stages, in accordance with a proper business development plan, without waiting for one-off hand-outs. The first phase, at the Park End, would increase the capacity to 48,000 and be largely financed by associated commercial development, including a hotel and apartments overlooking the Park Lake. While it is hard to understand the synergy between a retail development and a football ground [apart from short-term financial gain, exploiting quirks and loopholes in the planning system], the links with a hotel are more obvious and sustainable and, for many, the associated apartments would be a valuable and unique attraction. The Bestway Site The ?tunnel trumpet? site was suggested in my article ?Rebuilding Goodison? posted on Toffeeweb in March, but it only became a live possibility as a result of meetings between Bestway and the City Council in the last three months. Work is proceeding on detailed architectural and financial proposals for the site, but the early concept sketch below shows how a stadium could fit ?like a glove?. The first stage is a stadium seating over 48,000 within the loop. A second phase bridges the loop road with a further 12,000 seats linked to a hotel tower on Great Homer Street. The whole scheme would be closely linked to ?Project Jennifer? and the combination would provide a solid future for the community of Everton after years of decline. An early concept sketch for the Tunnel Trumpet site, with Scotland Road to the left and Great Homer Street to the right, and a new plaza built across the link road between the two to provide a fitting main entrance to the stadium and a suitable relocation for the statue of Dixie Dean. There is a vehicle concourse at ground level and two levels of car parking, with a pedestrian concourse at pitch level above. Sky-galleries underneath the roofs and accessed by lifts and stairs in the South corners provide views over the city as well as down onto the pitch, and would be open 7 days a week. Double-decker stands on three sides provide capacities as follows: Lower South Stand 5,000 / Upper South Stand 6,000 / Lower Scotland Road Stand 7,000 / Upper Scotland Road Stand 8,000 / Lower Main Stand 7,000 / Upper Main Stand 8,000 / North Stand Phase 1 4,000 / North Stand Phase 2 12,000 / Sky Galleries 3,600. This gives a total of 48,600 for Phase 1 and 60,600 for the combined Phase 1 and 2, linked to a 28-storey ?Hotel 1878?. Keep Everton in the Heart of the City! Stand your Ground! Reader Comments Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Paulo 1 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:32:08 Report abuse Not one mention of financing for anything "in town".Goodison getting revamped would be subject to numerous lengthy planning applications and protests no doubt.The loop does not look like a viable alternative. Funding with Bestway maybe but the logisitcs nighmare of having to build bridges over main roads and parking etc is a non starter in my eyes.Funding wise there is no PLan B outside of Kirkby sadly but to reject it would mean another 5-10 years of new proposals searches for backing........10 years in this money driven era is a long time to lag behind. Dom Phoenix 2 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:37:15 Report abuse A little research would have shown Man U actually play in Trafford which is NOT Manchester and thus they don’t actually play in the city themselves. I voted yes to Kirkby and I urge anyone undecided not to listen to anyone but themselves. Of course I don’t particularly want to go but the unfortunate truth is its ’Hobsons choie’. footiefan 3 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:37:30 Report abuse i’d go with the loop site. keep it local. the proposed plans look nicer than the other plans too Liam 4 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:39:43 Report abuse I agree with paulo, There has been little thought out into the financing of these alternative proposals. The way i see this, everything is being done last minute purely to sway peoples voting decisions. If there was an alternative in the city with guaranteed backing like kirkby, i would be all for it too, but time is money in this day and age. Goodison cannot be re-developed, thats a pipe dream and we all know it. McKinney 5 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:39:43 Report abuse Just a random point but if you are going to give Manchester Utd as an example then surely you are going to have to define "out of town". Trafford is not "inner city".That is just being picky though as the others are all fair examples.I would love to explore all the current options, and more, but time is not on our side. As Paulo says, 5-10 years is a long time in the Premiership. Look at Leeds (admittedly mismanaged by every crook that could get their hands on them). MB 6 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:36:53 Report abuse Choice 1: Fully funded,within our limited budget and in Liverpool as far as most people are concerned.Choice 2: Not an option. We have no moneyChoice 3:A nice idea in a great location. But again we have no money McKinney 7 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:47:27 Report abuse OOOPS!I see that while I was writing, Dom already made the point about Trafford. Optimist 8 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:47:02 Report abuse Does a ’no’ vote mean the absolute end of the Kirkby option?What if it allows a proper consultation and financial package to be sorted for the Loop site, and then a fresh vote with TWO proper alternatives in a few months time? Darren Cowzer 9 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:44:25 Report abuse Kirkby is the Only Logical and Realistic "Choice" so far.Liverpool Council Don’t care enough to deliver anything close to what Knowsley Council and Tesco are offering. Mark Davidson 10 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:51:44 Report abuse It’s all well and good talking about locations, but you need to consider financing these glorious schemes! Anyone can pop an animated rendition of a stadium over an aerial photograph and say ’see what we could have?’ but it simply isn’t feasible given our budget! Chris T 11 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:49:09 Report abuse It is clear that there are other options that are possible but the question is are they worth the additional cost.Constraints - whether the roads around the loop or the residential constrain the build and increase costs.It may be possible to build over roads creating tunnels and to have large bridges creating access but these things cost more money.The advantage of Kirkby is that Everton would not be paying for the additional infrastructure costs and would have more freedom on stadium design.Part of the reason for the move to modern stadia throughout the premiership is the benefit of additional revenues not just from corporate boxes but also the chance create facilities to sell more of you own food/drink and make money out of bookies and merchandising shops. I’m not convinced such facilities can easily be created at Goodison and even less convinced that the suggestion of redevelopment here could be "largely financed by associated commercial development, including a hotel and apartments overlooking the Park Lake". There is barely enough room for more build let alone profitable development of sufficient size to pay for it.In Kirkby there is a retail partner who stands to gain a lot with Everton able to get a small share of this benefit - this leads to cost savings. The ability for this to happen on other sites appears lower but even if it is the same would have not offset larger build costs.There is a lot of optimism regarding the benefits of commercial development on alternative sites but it seems to me there is less potential benefit.This is not to say that Kirkby is a must. I think the choice is simply is it worth investing an additional £50-£150 million for an alternative rather than take the Kirkby option. Or to put it another way a difference of £5m-£15m transfer revenue each year for 30 years(based on debt repayment estimates from our current loan) ryan 12 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:49:21 Report abuse what everyone who supports redeveloping goodison and building on the bestway site fails to notice is that we have no guaranteed funding to support these sites. it would take hundreds of millions to redevelop goodison and build bestway and many years where we would fall behind many smaller clubs. everyone who votes yes for kirkby would love to stay in goodison but they realise that it is not a viable option. Listen to your heads instead of your hearts. We have only one option and that is Kirkby Tony Bell 13 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:48:56 Report abuse I have voted Yes to the Ground move. This is simply because i feel that if Everton have been looking for a new ground since the Kings Dock fiasco then why haven’t LCC come forward earlier. All this last minute work by LCC and Bestway is purely to sway the vote to a NO. I also think that if the NO vote is successful then expect Choice C to be grounded due to Grosvenor threatening legal action or other infrastructure issues.Choice B is nul and void in my eyes. As much as i’d love to stay at my beloved Goodison Park, it would cost an absolute fortune (nobody has given an exact figure) to redevelop. Dom Phoenix 14 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:52:18 Report abuse ANd another thing..... anyone who says they won’t go to the match if we are in Kirkby or future generations won’t are mischief making. The red shite are welcome to any future generation who support them on that basis alone- after all they are the same fickle whoppers who’ve been walking round town with Chelsea tops on the last 2 years. I’ll still be going...... and so will ALL my family. After all GP wasn’t in the city boundary when it was built so we are largely the sons and daughters of people who supported an out of town club right? Like a line on a map matters. Grow up- we need the move. See you in Kirkby die-hard blues. Dan Mckie 15 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:51:03 Report abuse I honestly dont know why certain people keep coming up with these things! Everton have NO MONEY,or at least not alot! Its not about stadium designs or staying in the city,its about cold hard cash! Sad but true! Boris 16 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:35:59 Report abuse I am not an Everton fan thank goodness but anyone can see that you’re a wally. Frankly i am surprised you have not suggested a floating stadium above the very centre of Liverpool,surley this is the way forward. Perhaps Lando Calrissian could be your new chairman? Martin 17 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:50:51 Report abuse I agree with the previous comments made about funding for the other two proposals. For a club that is clearly strapped for cash, this is a HUGE deal. Not to mention, the time it would take to push another project through the planning and approval stages, then build it. We’re talking at least 5 years here, especially since untrustworthy politicians would get their grubby paws on it. Sure, it would be nice for Everton to stay "in town." But remember, we’re talking about an arbitrary, politician-invented boundary line here that is FOUR MILES away. Four miles. That’s not exactly far. Seems to me that Kirkby offers the best in terms of viability, financing and also has good space and good transport links along the nearby East Lancs Road and motorway. We gotta move forward, folks. Let’s not let Liverpool shack up in their fancy new stadium right next to us while we sit on our hands, arguing about boundary lines and going backwards. Julian 18 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:45:00 Report abuse Expanding the Park End would not alter the restricted views, general shabbiness, lack of bars toilets etc in the rest of GP.I’m also far from convinced by the funding suggestion for GP or the loop. Build a hotel and everything will be sorted! Really? Steven 19 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:56:56 Report abuse That is one of the most ill informed articles I have read on the matter. The biggest and richest club in England, if not the world, play outside their City limits (Manchester United). Again no mention of funding for either of the alternatives. Plus Goodison being redeveloped as already been discredited by many leading architects. Robert Owen 20 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:37:30 Report abuse The Keep Everton in Liverpool’s shadow campaign should appreciate that a ’no vote’ will remove the Kirkby option from consideration, not allow time for "all three" to be considered. Man Utd are based in Salford, not the City Centre, ie the equivalent of Kirkby. Yes, the world considers that to be Manchester as it considers Kirkby to be Liverpool. A fact mentioned in Terry Leahy’s letter. How is it possible to have a view on this subject without having read his letter? Please consider all views and try to stick to facts not emotion. Richard Smith 21 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:58:15 Report abuse The key point made by many comments above is that we just do not have the money to either redevelop Goodison or to go to the loop. The only objections to moving to Kirkby seem to be that it is marginally outside of the city boundary and that something better may come along. Get this; being offerred a brand new stadium for a fraction of the build cost if we go it alone is the something better; by going with the yes vote it means that we can invest in playing staff not bricks and reap the rewards of not having to spend £100m on a new stadium ourselves. Voting no is to vote for fear of change; for holding on to the past and not taking the opportunity of the future; and to allow mistrust to prevail. The proposal to move is truly an excellent deal and we will not see better. Vote no and the current alternatives will slowly disappear and we will be left to rue the failure to take the best option available. Be bold. Be brave. Vote Yes. andymac 22 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:56:42 Report abuse I have previously commented within this forum that I suspected that the Bestway scheme was merely a pipe dream, but out of respect to the enthusiasm and no doubt genuine concern as Evertonians of the KEIOC group, I have not yet cast my ballot vote, even though it had been announced that "details" of the proposal would have been made available a week ago. So, we have now seen some "schematics" and a few big names have been thrown into the arena as being involved in a "feasability study". Sorry guys, this has finally made up my mind. The visual presentations have all the hallmarks of a student playing round on an Apple Mac. Amateur, devoid of any engineering basis, not to scale, and, quite frankly, embarassing. We have WAY PASSED the time when "initial feasability studies" can contribute anything to the decision making process. I’m afraid it’s all just a smokescreen to cover Clr Bradley’s ineptitude - "report on the Mathew Street Fiasco" mark 2. I doubt if the man will still be around in local politics by the time the footings are being laid for new Goodison, nomatter where that may be. No, the professionalism of the EFC Board has been vindicated, as far as I am concerned. Let’s all pull together behind the deliverable Kirkby option, and enjoy the rest of the season. Loop di Loop 23 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:04:12 Report abuse Please, no more Old Trafford comparisons. To do so, just shows a lack of understanding of when it was built and what it stood for.You are talking about a stadium which was built almost 100 years ago, and was seen at that time, as the state of the art stadium for a team competing in what was still a fledgling competition. It was lauded as a magnificent structure, built by the one and only Archie Leich, and was the venue for 2 FA cup finals as soon as it was built.Now you want to talk about the Kirkby Cowshed?Behave. Mark Power 24 Posted 16/08/2007 at 16:58:24 Report abuse I have voted yes as I have a grasp of the basic economics of the argument. What part of we dont have the money to fund anything else dont people understand. Clearly our dear council leader has demonstrated his capacity to deliver as witnessed by the Matthew Street Festival debacle and is seeking to destabilise the club he claims to support. brian sephton 25 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:05:07 Report abuse Just a thought but in this age where everything seems possible -by the way I am against Kirkby solely because I have gone to Goodison all my life and it doesn’t seem right to go out of the city 3.5 miles or not -can we not find out the reaction to EVERTON moving to Goodison all those years ago from some newspaper articles Dave Thompson 26 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:19:55 Report abuse dom,A little research would tell you that Man Utd do NOT play in Trafford. They play in Salford.But don’t let the truth get in the way, eh?The geography of Greater Manchester is entirely different to Merseyside, and Old Trafford is closer to Manchester City Centre than Goodison is to Liverpool City Centre. Furthermore, when they moved there, they had no history or heritage to consider. Martin 27 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:15:00 Report abuse andymac... couldn’t have said it better myself, mate. The whole boundary line, harking back to yesteryear, isn’t Goodison a cozy little place is getting a bit irritating. Don’t get me wrong... I love Goodison, but let’s face it... it’s old, run-down, cramped and the Lower Bullens is a terrible area to sit and actually watch a game. We’re not going to be there forever. Stop listening to your hearts and dodgy politicians with even dodgier stadium "designs" that a 4-year old could have drawn and use some common sense. I’ve read what BK, KW and Leahy have said and it’s difficult to not see the logic. These people are not going to ruin Everton - Kirkby is an excellent deal that I never dreamed we’d get. Anything else from the LCC and KEIOC is just last-minute smoke and mirrors, designed to tug on the heart-strings, but without any REAL, VIABLE, COST-EFFECTIVE alternative. Researcher 28 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:27:27 Report abuse Trafford, meaning ’Trafford Park’ is in Salford you div! Which further proves the point that Man Utd do not play "inner-city"Further to that, Greater Manchester geography is different to Merseyside? Well that’s not even an argument, that’s pathetic! Blue Mersey 29 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:12:57 Report abuse Going to the match has never been just about the football for me, its about the people you go with and meet there and the day out, before and after the game. At the end of the day there is not much to do in Kirby, its a new town, and I dont fancy queuing with thousands of people to get a train into town and finally get a bevvy an hour and a half later. This might sound selfish but these are things local people do when they go to the game and I think the Kirby move will take that away. is everyone just supposed to go straight home after the game? Some of the best memories I’ve got of the football are in The Wilmslow, or The Royal Oak, or The Blue House and then on town later. It makes a win complete for me and a lot of other people. Bollocks to this Mcdonalds Family Stand attitude to football. I think the Kirby move will take alot of the fun out of going to the footy, or at the least make it a bit harder to have any because of all the travel. If you’re an out of town blue then this probably isnt a consideration for you, but for people who have grown up a five minute walk away from the game, with Goodison, County Road, and town on your doorstep then Kirby isnt very appealing at all. russ 30 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:28:45 Report abuse Goodison park , she’s a grand old lady , But so was queen victoria. Lets look to the future Kirby’s the only choice , we simply dont have any funds for a new stadium . Blue Mersey 31 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:40:56 Report abuse Well then why cant Tesco fund something that’s not past the suburbs of the city then? Blue Balls 32 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:37:28 Report abuse Blue MerseyWhat is your suggestion then? Which of the many options do you prefer?If we are to accept that redevelopment of GP is not an option, and that GP is not up to standard and holding us back, what are the alternatives.Would you prefer that we just got rid of the stadium all together and just go watch the game in The Wilmslow?This smacks of "shut my eyes and it will all be ok when I wake up"! Ben Twilly 33 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:33:06 Report abuse Let Liverpool Council invade Knowsley Borough and annexe Kirkby incorporating in into the ’city’.hey problem solved! Blue Mersey 34 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:42:32 Report abuse I’ll answer that myself, because they’re feathering their own nest, not ours. Tesco could build something inner city if they wanted to but thats not even been looked at, and why?, because were in a ’period of exclusivity’. Its BS, plain and simple. This move isnt for the long term good of Everton, its to make sure Tesco get their market share of the outskirts of Liverpool Blue Mersey 35 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:45:54 Report abuse My suggesstion Blue Balls with your crap name is to wait. Suggesting that there is no space in the city to build a new ground is rubbish. Have you seen the amount of building work going on in and around the city at the moment. There’s plenty of places for it to be done, but we are being railroaded in to taking a quick decision without having any of the other options FULLY explored, because this move is a done deal, VOTE OR NOT. and the comment you made about the Wilmslow is just stupid. That’s obviously not the point I was making. Blue Balls 36 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:51:42 Report abuse Blue MerseyHave you even researched this?Tesco already looked at the loop, and many other inner-city sites. Due to CPOs, transport restraints and opposition from the very people who are undertaking the mass development in the city which you refer to, they have ended up with Kirkby!Read up on it! Blue Mersey 37 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:55:43 Report abuse As I’ve just said mate, its BS. There reason they’ve decided on Kirby is the lack of a massive supermarket there, which means little competition for Mr Tesco and his one pound spent there out of every eight. There are plenty of sights they could do it on here but a smaller market share of the local grocery buying community. This smacks of "shut my eyes and it will all be ok when I wake up"! Zed-victor-one 38 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:51:42 Report abuse Its be said, said and said again but some just don’t or won’t get it. WE HAVE NO MONEY. This website almost rejoices in drawing attention to analyses of our finances about the amount of debt we have and flakiness even of our operating finances. Up pops a chance to get into a new stadium we’d never afford in a generation or two and what? Suddenly we could or should be affording vastly more expensive and unconsidered proposals. But its all academic! We can’t afford anything remotely like them. Get real vote YES! Blue Balls 39 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:59:23 Report abuse I’m not trying to get into a slagging match with you. I totally agree that the main reason for doing it in Kirkby is the catchment area that Tesco will hit. This will mean even more huge profits for them. So what!Who do you think is going to invest in Everton without getting something out of it? Unless we nail down another Abramovich, nobody’s just going to give us money. Not being able to driink at your local before/after the game doesn’t really address the issue of finance or viability. If you don’t want to go to Kirkby, ok. However, we do need to move from GP and this is an option to be considered. Just harping on about the big corporate monster Tesco doesn’t solve anything. We need partners and partners (investors) are going to want something out of it. colin.fitz 40 Posted 16/08/2007 at 17:44:25 Report abuse People are going over the same old ground and using the same old rhetoric to prove their beliefs, no matter how many times they’re shown to be wrong, all sensible people on here know that Kirkby isn’t idea and has several problems but these are negated by one overwhelming fact - Everton are obtaining a £150M stadium at a discounted price, the problem is nobody seems to know what this price is, if it’s £15M then as Mr. Wyness has stated it’s the "deal of the century" if, after reading Mr. Leahy’s open letter the hole in the finance seems to be closer to £100M then Kirkby, as a new home, becomes far less appealing. In the end it just could be that Kirkby is the only option, poor as it appears to be. Orrell Park Blue 41 Posted 16/08/2007 at 18:05:57 Report abuse Some good points in Trevor’s article, although obviously a no voter searching for a viable alternative - which is fair enough. What does spoil articles such as Trevor’s is the hyperbole that they occasionally lapse into. In Trevor’s case its the reference to the a "historic inner-city rivalry that is unique in World Football". Well, that just isnt true is it? There are many rivalries in football as intense and parochial as ours. Manchester, Glasgow, Turin, Milan, Dundee, Edinburgh, Madrid etc, etc, etc. Stick to the facts Trevor (and your valid opinions) and avoid the hyperbole and you’ll be OK. mark obrien 42 Posted 16/08/2007 at 18:06:20 Report abuse to those hoping for the tunnel loop proposal and therefore voting no to kirkby,I dont have a vote.I’m from the wirral, and would love to have a site by the wallasey tunnel, just for pure selfish reasons like getting to the ground, and having a pint before and after the game in town.However, having been to the site and around it, I just cannot see how the space can accomodate what we need and just cant get myself excited about this site, now matter how hard i try. For me kirkby is the only option available. Undecided 43 Posted 16/08/2007 at 18:36:02 Report abuse Tony Bell wrote : "it would cost an absolute fortune (nobody has given an exact figure) to redevelop." - sorry are you talking about the Kirkby plans or those in this article ?andymac wrote : "The visual presentations have all the hallmarks of a student playing round on an Apple Mac. Amateur, devoid of any engineering basis, not to scale, and, quite frankly, embarassing" - sorry are you talking about the Kirkby plans or those in this article ?Martin wrote : "even dodgier stadium "designs" that a 4-year old could have drawn and use some common sense" - sorry are you talking about the Kirkby plans or those in this article ?I contend that EVERY argument that has been levelled at these alternative plans could be levelled at the Kirkby plan as well - the amount of actual SOLID information provided has been virtually non-existent. There are a few night-time renderings of a generic stadium with no detail whatsoever and the financial figures quoted have ALL been either "could be" or "may be" (e.g. how much we’d get from the sale of Goodison/naming rights) and any seemingly definitive figures (e.g. "Tesco will buy the land for £50million then give it to us") have later been denied (by Tesco) or changed (first Everton’s slice was only £10-15m, then it rose to £50m, and it now seems to be completely unknown as we’ll seemingly have to pay any extra costs if the project over-runs and/or costs rise).I can understand why people have felt the need to come up with alternatives, given Mr Wyness’ inital "There is no Plan B" statement (which in itself I find outrageous - I thought he was PAID to find alternatives ???) and I take my hat off to them for doing so - but these proposals have, in a way, providing something of a cover for the lack of any real solid figures in the Kirkby proposal.I urge anyone who is still undecided to look again purely at the Kirkby proposal and try to find some SOLID answers in there for the way things WILL be if this plan is carried out. For any argument or potential problem you can find with the alternatives proposed, look for solid answers why the Kirkby plan won’t be the same. And when you find the solid ansers, can you please post them on here ?Tony Bell : Can you please provide me with "an exact figure" for Everton’s input to the Kirbky project ?andymac or Martin : Can you show me the full designs and the "engineering" version of the pretty pictures in the Kirkby brochure, along with the scale etc. ?Just because this is the only option the board could find (AT THE MOMENT) it doesn’t mean it is the RIGHT option folks. If you don’t have all the facts about Kirkby then you are voting Yes based on what you HOPE it will be - and, as I’m sure we all know as Evertonians - hoping just isn’t enough.I can’t vote for this at the moment, because I haven’t been provided with enough SOLID information about it to convince me that it is the right move. I will wait until the last moment for such information to be provided, but without it, I just can’t vote based purely on hope - it’s far too important a decision, and it’s one we can only make once. Blue Mersey 44 Posted 16/08/2007 at 18:38:54 Report abuse Exactly Blue Balls, I am not against moving ground, we need to, but not to Kirkby..... When the Kings Dock proposal came up I was all for it, because it was the right move. This move isnt and just because people a waving pound signs still doesnt make it right. We need to get rid of our motto under the badge because its meaningless. This isnt the best, its only the best on offer and therefore is not good enough alan hill 45 Posted 16/08/2007 at 18:49:56 Report abuse To all the blues infavour of kirkby, please vote NO in order to tell the club at least to consider the other options. It may be that kirkby is the best option however I do not beleive the the alternates, partcularly the loop have been seriously considered. A NO vote may give more time for the loop propsal to be developed and made available for the fans consideration. Voting NO will not delay Everton for "5-10 years", a yes vote may transform Everton into a souless, off the peg Bolton wanderers forever. This vote is far too important. We need more info re. the loop. A NO vote may enable us to make a more informed choice in the not so distant futureVote NO, please footiefan 46 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:11:33 Report abuse I reckon the loop is the best idea. It would look seriously good and provide a grand entrance in. I don’t agree with the comments about the look of the Stadium. It is now well known that Bestway have hired the same architects that built Arsenals stadium. I think the concept for bestway is that they want to get some money back from the Hotel that will be attched to the stadium and the rent from the shops in the complex. therefore the project will at some point payback (may take a long time though :-)) and then the land is Bestways already so they dont have to pay for that. They also have strong experience of putting of massive buildings like cement plants in short spaces of time. I think Tesco is in it as you say for the catchment area and to make loads more money out of everyone. The tesco proposed stadium doesnt look anywhere near as good as the one proposed at the loop. Bestway do things efficiently from what ive been reading on their website and tesco are already saying they wont pay for any over run. why go for Kirkby when the tesco is already saying no to overruns. Plus they’ll build the supermarket first - stadium later i feel. I feel the loop can definately accomodate the stadium. I reckon bestway wont do anything to harm themselves because they have tight margins being a cash and carry chain so they cant afford to actually screw up so if they are given the go aheead they would deliver. You say tesco looked at the loop. The point is that tesco would love to have it but they would have to buy out bestway - and that probably is a good cash and carry site for them too so they wont sell to teco right, even tesco said themselves that they couldnt buy the loop off of bestwaySo im going for the loop still - just go have a drive around and see what you think. thats what i did today. Steve B 47 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:29:26 Report abuse Sorry Alan, but voting no won’t lead Everton to consider the other options. It simply remove the one option that has financial backing and which to be honest the club has invested all its energies in. I don’t think the club will ever countenance the Loop option, even if it had a commercial backer behind it. A ’No’ vote will mean sticking at Goodison which, although I love the place, will be disastrous for us. Either way there’s no point Evertonians arguing about it any more. Let’s see how the vote goes. Dave G 48 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:38:17 Report abuse So Bestway are going to get their £100-£200 million back from hotel rooms and shop rentals? Remind me not to take a weekend break in that hotel as I am not sure that I will be able to afford the £5000 a night rate! Gary W 49 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:04:26 Report abuse Getting really bored now. Face facts people, we are not in Liverpool now. We are in Walton. Liverpool are not in Liverpool, Liverpool are in Anfield. Liverpool is a couple of miles square and commonly called Town. Theres no difference between Anfield Walton or Kirkby, all are outside Liverpool and all are scouse. Grow up, lets start being positive about the opportunity that is on our door. Martin 50 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:17:07 Report abuse Amen, Gary! Let’s not blow this chance, just because we want to tease ourselves into thinking the LCC can come up with something. They’ve had long enough. Tony Marsh 51 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:18:23 Report abuse Don't you just hate these people who say Man Utd are not in Manchester. Maybe the council of Salford empties their bins but Old Trafford is 5 minutes away from the city center. Kirkby is a good half an hour away from Liverppol and comparisions are pathetic. For a kick off Man Utd could play every one thier home games at Wembley and still sell out. Could we? Bury your head Pheonix. Tom Hughes 52 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:45:04 Report abuse Firstly, those doubting Trevor Skempton?s credentials should do some research. He is a renowned architect, and is currently the consultant architect for the biggest city centre redevelopment in Europe. He has posted initial ideas and sketches based on a wealth of experience. He is currently helping Bestway and LCC put this package together in a matter of days, a task which has taken Tesco 18 months. It is ridiculous to expect everything to be sorted to the finest detail. The stadium architects who are being commisioned to generate the final scheme are HOK. These are the biggest stadium design group in the world with unrivalled experience. Those doubting LCC, saying they should have done more before now should also realise that they are not obliged to do anything. However, the custodians of our club are certainly obliged to look at all the options, that is what they said they had done. Modern stadium planning strategy worldwide has been towards downtown stadia not out of town ones. The latter was tried en masse in the US in the 50?s-70?s. These are now being knocked down in favour of new inner city stadia. The success of these new venues has prompted the biggest stadium building boom in over 80yrs in the states. Some have even got next to no parking with the stress on public transport use, often shoehorning them into tight city blocks. Kirkby can never match the city centre for this provision. In the city centre every Evertonian in Merseyside will be able to get to the match by taking one bus, or one train. This can never be the case in Kirkby. The city centre copes with over 100,000 commuters every rush hour. Kirkby chokes on a couple of thousand industrial estate workers (I worked there for over 6 years, up till last year). Finances: We still haven?t had the definitive costs for the Kirkby proposals, yet you?re demanding such for everything else which has had only weeks to be put together. Bestway are a private company who?s owner has considerable wealth, and more able to invest in the club than Tesco PLC. The planning Department putting together these proposals have been instrumental in generating massive redevelopments across the city centre, with many more in the pipeline. These are not small players, and the fact that this project is currently harnessing a major proportion of their attention at the moment points to this being a very serious option, If allowed to develop properly (and why should we be constrained by this artificial deadline?) The Loop option will eclipse anything Kirkby has to offer. The whole finance /land release/planning gain process can be just as readily achieved at the loop site as it can in Kirkby. These people are doing this all the time around town..... and the skyline is proof of that. Keep the faith blues we needn?t settle for second best! Steve Mc 53 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:03:01 Report abuse Why do people keep dismissing the Loop with ’can’t you see we’ve got no money?’ when they don’t even know what the proposal from Bestway is? If the plan is feasible, they are including other options for other partners to put in their investment, the funding may be similar to that of Kirkby but the simple fact remains that we don’t know and we won’t know unless we speak to them.Looking at Kirkby from another perspective, forgetting boundaries etc., the ’extra’ revenue, £10m supposedly, will not all come from increased gates and corporate, (simple sum - assuming we get 10,000 extra fans every game LONG term at average £30 = £5.7m, 39 boxes at a ’generous’ £50k per season = £1.9m total £7.6m before tax), the off field revenue i.e. conferences, weddings etc, would have to be a major long term source.Accessibility is one ’yes’ plus for going to Kirkby for out of town fans and not such a major problem for locals but if you were a company arranging a conference or other activity for people/family who are from other towns and cities then things would be very different. The only easy access for these ’visitors’ would be via car as there are no direct rail links to Kirkby that I am aware of, There are no hotels, no theatres, no nightlife, making events requiring overnight accomodation very unattractive to business visitors. We mightn’t be able to choose but they certainly can. The city is booming and is set to do so for many a year and any business who would take the first route away from the hub and a potential revenue source without exploring every option to stay is a business taking a major risk. Maximising the long term benefits are more important than a short term cash fix.I don’t know where the 5 or 10 year comments come from either as the Kirkby deal has taken only 18 months, Bestway say they can have a feasibility study done in 3 months, and most other requirements in 9, so I’m sure Kirkby will still be there in December if the Loop turns out not to be viable.Too much to ask? alan hill 54 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:15:05 Report abuse Steve B. I think the No vote would be a statement from the fans for all options to be explored including (and most importantly the financial backing).However, like you I don’t believe the club will countenace the loop as the Tesco option presents the quickest and cheapest way of fattening up Kenwright et als share value ( He will sell for a fast profit the second the stadium is built if not before)As I said before, it may be that kirkby is the best and only viable option but I would like to at least make the statement to the club that if a better option may be available (and the loop is a million times better site than an out of town retail park)they should give it all due consideration an let us the fans, have a proper choice rather than the bullying "kirkby or death" nonsense on offer now.But you’re right lets get on with the vote although I do think it is ultimately an irrelevance. mike benjamin 55 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:35:37 Report abuse i work for salford city council and unshited def are not in our borough! i have been anticipating all week some ground breaking news on an alternative and what do i see......sod all except an another reason to vote yes! dgf 56 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:02:59 Report abuse "but the early concept sketch below shows how a stadium could fit ?like a glove?"I agree it does fit like a glove. Can you just see those luxury hotel rooms selling? Personally I don’t.Also can you see the position of where all those other commercial opportunities will sit on the loop? I certainly don’t.Finally if for any reason the ground had to be evacuated can you see it happening safely? I certainly don’t.We will all be standing on a main road. It will never get permission. Forget the loop the whole idea is pointless. Have you ever wondered why Bestway don’t want the land? Probably for the same reasons why a football stadium will never be built on it. Ged 57 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:08:00 Report abuse If you are going to present three options then try to do it without bias, it is apparent that you dont like the Kirkby option but as stated above - where will the money come from for the others?For once, at least try to present a balanced view without your KEIOC tinted glasses on.It is almost like you are wishing for the club to fail so your negative viewpoint on all things blue will the order of the day. Brian mills 58 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:21:06 Report abuse Sir Terry leahy runs the no1 retailer is this country and is a genious in business building,they have got the land to build in Liverpool but as he states it is not viable. We are being offered to in with them in Kirkby and some of you guys are refusing??????? this beggars belief .Sir terry and tesco are building the biggest tesco in the country and why are they building it in Kirkby,because the town is going through major changes with private investment only second to Liverpool 08 and Tesco and knowsley council are investing £400 million in phase one then £200million in phase two.Sir Terry and his advisors dont just say here is a plot of land "lets build a tesco there" a full study is done and believe me tesco will prosper and we will too and I will be quite proud to be linked to a major brand name in the top 100 ftse ........as for the guy who said he is mixing business with pleasure!! this is not Sir Terrys little toy......it is a major investment by the board who know how to make money.It means I will have to travel further to get there but I cannot wait.KIRKBY-YES-PLEASE joey 59 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:19:44 Report abuse I’m going to be physically sick if I read one more brainless twat say I voted yes, but I didnt want to John Charles 60 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:44:15 Report abuse Why cant we build my Goodison floating suspended 125,000 seater spaceship stadium idea?It would only cost about 2 billion, but fcking hell Kenwright -Nil Satis Nisi Optimum!! sort it!! howards liver 61 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:53:46 Report abuse the future is the loop...tesco are my soiled hoop...nuff saidvote NO to tinpot kirkby... Mark Stone 62 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:54:38 Report abuse To all those voting no cos they ’won’t be able to drink in their local before the game’ I live in Aigburth and have never had that luxury, although I do indulge in beers in the oak and then get a bus home! Can’t you do the same? And just think of those blues who live in knowsley and can know go for a drink in THEIR local before the game. Its all very selfish lads. Paul 63 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:16:00 Report abuse As someone who lives and was brought up in Manchester, let me confirm for yu that Old Trafford is NOT IN SALFORD!! It is in Stretford, which comes under Trafford Borough Council, one of a group of councils that make up the former metropolitan county of Greater Manchester. It is also 5 mins from Mcr city centre by bus and therefore a hollow comparison with Kirkby at best. I’m still in two minds with my vote, The Loop would be ideal but not sure it can be delivered. I do think some people are being very pessimistic about what the Kirkby stadium plans look like. I quite like them to be honest! Kevin Mitchell 64 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:30:11 Report abuse Tom HughesA great reply to all those who believe a move to Kirkby is the only option available. In reality It is the only option that the board are willing to look at. But we must stand firm on this most crucial decison. We must fight the board to make them investigate all options in the city. There are people out there with vision, like Trevor Skempton moving heaven and earth doing what efc should have been doing instead of going underground with Tescos for the last 12 months. I can’t believe that every idea to keep everton where it belongs gets slated by the very people who are supposed to support the club. For me Kirkby would be a quick fix for not only Kenwright but those who just want to go to a new stadium no matter where it is. dave willow 65 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:34:34 Report abuse vote no,please lets stay at gp while the gobshites build up their stadium,lets vote against this move while we wait for goldfinger to turn up on a fine arab charger,lets stick 2 fingers up to the board and tesco,lets stay at goodison while everybody else moves forward,lets all get together in the blue house(after ripping the boards off) and convince all the blues we need to stay here, and in 5 years time we will be further away form the rest of the prem and thats if we are in it,this is not just about the move but for the future of EFC. !!!!!!!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!! HELLO efceastside 66 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:51:50 Report abuse Why I Voted YesI have been travelling 220 miles round trip to each home game for 22 Years. I wasn’t born in liverpool or merseyside for that matter, however I was a born an Evertonian my two sons were born evertonians and they now travel to the match with me. To all those who voted no because Kirkby is outside of the city boundary that is absolute bullshit if your reasons are future generations will be reds. Again I state Evertonians are born were are not manufactured.I have enjoyed a drink on county road for the past 20 years as much as anyone but this must not be a reason to stay at goodison.It’s time to move on.I was lucky enough to be in Rotterdam, Wembley twice a year for 5 years(near enough) and watch 2 championships teams. I also realise this is the best team we have had since then so to all those still to vote i plead with you all SUPPORT THE MANAGER SUPPORT THE CHAIRMAN BUT MOST OF ALL SUPPORT OUR CLUB AND VOTE YES I believe we can again become the greatest team in the country but we must have a stadium to do this and we have the chance to have one with this deal. We must all realise Moyes won’t stay if we carry on as we are but if we move he will stay and carry on building a young and talented squad to bring us the trophies we so desperately want.Remember Once a blue always a blue NO MATTER WHERE YOU COME FROM!!!!! Paul Johnson 67 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:30:23 Report abuse I can’t be arsed with all this ground move bollocks anymore.We shouldn’t even be given a vote in the first place,after all David Moyes doesn’t have a poll asking us if we agree with his latest signing.So why the people who are tasked with running our club think we should do their job for them is beyond me.All i’ll say is, to all the people who are saying Old Trafford is only 5 minutes from Manchester city centre ,then you’re more than welcome to walk it with me next season when you can’t get on a bus or find a taxi after the game.You’ll soon change your tune.The ground is still full though.And to Blue Mersey, i’m a five minute walk from the proposed site for the new stadium, and i live in Liverpool.Unlike the recently resigned woolyback leader of KEIOC.;-) Matty 68 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:52:27 Report abuse Dom Phoenix, Don’t listen to anyone but yourself? Is that how you arrive at decisions, by burying your head in the sand? If it works for you great but it’s clear that your vote has been truly wasted. It’s hardly the sort of advice you should be passing around though. Much better to seek out information from a variety of sources and make a decision based on them. Any more life advice needed Dom, let me know. Funkie duncan 69 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:55:15 Report abuse sat here for hours reading all the whys and why nots on all the postings but the majority are saying YES, if this is a reflection on the vote GOOD. MacStadium 70 Posted 17/08/2007 at 00:00:57 Report abuse 1. A rebuild at Goodison Park is out of the question - we move on...2. I have nothing against Kirkby...except...the stadium is dire and cheap. Four stands that only meet at pitch level with the corners not used. Give us a break...if we are to move out of the city at least let’s have decent stadium with the corners used. They say it can expand to 60,000. Sure it will the corners will be used for police boxes and executive boxes making the stadium crap for atmosphere. Jason Hagarthy 71 Posted 17/08/2007 at 01:39:29 Report abuse CORRECTION re article: The Kirkby Stadium is NOT out of town! It will be at the heart of the Liverpool City Region, in very close proximity to a hugely regenerated TOWN CENTRE! Boston Bob 72 Posted 17/08/2007 at 03:03:21 Report abuse An opinion from the colonies, it’s pretty simple, guys, if everyone is on board and wants to work it out at the current location, here is the plan. I’m NOT an expert in local development and since I’ve been to ONLY about a dozen matches at Goodison and not a long term supporter, only about 8 years, but I think I might be as Blue as they come.Here is a plan, not necessarily in this order, but based on local regulations, neighbors, etc.Obtain all permits (approvals);Acquire required neghboring property;Negotiate TEMPORARY ground share agreement with the Red half [Ugh!];Remove and rebuild Goodison as a state of the art facility;Qualify for and win the Champions League [As I said - NOT necessarily in this order}If everybody isn’t on board, move to Kirby.Let start with the next match and grab another 3 points! RobT 73 Posted 17/08/2007 at 04:26:26 Report abuse short-sighted article built entirely on heart ruling head. if the council had genuine ideas, they are 20 yrs too late. time is too short to explore offers with no financial weight behind them.i’m sad to leave the city centre but lets not harp on about a boundary line on a map and get fully behind the clubs decision. everton will be better for it. and as for goodison, great memories but time to move on. things change.good luck to moyesie and the boys against reading efcmark777 (Rusty Man) 74 Posted 17/08/2007 at 07:47:34 Report abuse RESPECT.....Its a difficult concept for some and sadly the stadium debate seems to have highlighted the fact.JOEY - Get your vomit bag out (again) because I voted "yes" and I dont want to leave the city. Your emotional counter argument just simplifies a complex debate beyond reason. Resorting to insults weakens the "no" vote campaign which is disappointing because there is much to respect about the KEOIC position. But therein lies the problem. For many people the KEOIC stance is too heavily reliant upon the "leaving of Liverpool" argument. Late arriving Loop site images and those daunting "redevelop Goodison" drawings must surely be worth a second glance but neither relied on waiting for the infamous "exclusivity" agreement to end ? Why are they so late ? Why would Mr Bradley wait so long before acting ? He hasnt really talked to EFC about either of the new alternatives so that shouldnt have stopped him offering up these important options a long long time ago ? But a bit like the fiasco around the Matthew St festival Mr Bradley has "reacted" too late with too little and he knows it. TOM and co....the Loop site option feels like a spoiler but im sure it has to be better than that. Yet you can read on here the genuine reaction from fans who are not stupid and despite your excellent attempts and those of Colin to explain the hugely complex financial elements of the debate there is.....a simple gut feeling that the Loop site is too small, too costly and will be too likely to attract years of planning objections before even a debate is had about bridge building and health & safety which are both crucial considerations.Gut feeling is a funny thing and very irritating to experts in any domain. But you know what, gut feeling tells me that there are big doubts about LCC’s sudden evangelical conversion to KEOIC. And gut feeling leads me to believe that the risks of the do-nothing-for-10-years outcome which may well result from a no-vote, far outweigh those associated with the very reasonable doubts expressed about the Kirkby project.The no voters seem so certain about their position. So trusting of LCC who in my view have had no time for EFC for years and I believe that we will always be second best in this city as far as LCC is concerned. I do not accept the emotive but clearly genuinely held view that moving to Kirkby will finish the club and destroy the supporter base. Just because it hasnt been done before does not mean it will fail. I am amazed by those life-long blues saying they will never watch us in Kirkby ? How sad is that....to give up your lifelong obsession because you lost out in a democratic process ? If its "no" and we stay in Lpl Ive no intention of ending my support for my second great love because "I lost an argument"......nonsense....im a bluenose and proud of it and this bloody debate about a stadium isnt going to stop me supporting my team....wherever they play.cheers, Mark (Rusty Man) Tom Hughes 75 Posted 17/08/2007 at 08:39:19 Report abuse Jason: Kirkby is out of town. It’s 8 miles away from the regional centre..... that is Liverpool city centre. It is the end of the line. There is only countryside beyond it, unless you’re including the rugby towns and low population villages around west lancs etc. As Trevor Skempton says, the CBD, the theatres, the city-centre etc will never relocate to any peripheral site because it would be commercial suicide. The same applies to Everton. We are a captive audience, but we live increasingly in a convenience led society, from convenience food to convenience shopping and even convenience footy beamed into our living rooms and pubs. Relocating to a less convenient place (for this city with the lowest car ownership of any provincial city) surely can’t correlate with this modern trend. Simon inglis is a world authority on stadium design and planning and he made his views clear on both radio and in the papers. He warns us that we should be very worried about the potential dangers of deserting our central location. Just saying it’s only a few miles further doesn’t really sum it up. I too used to travel thousands of miles a year to watch Everton because i work all over the world. It doesn’t mean we can locate anywhere and they will turn up in their droves. I also spent several years travelling to Kirkby from my home in South Liverpool. More than 3/4 of this city have no direct bus route to Kirkby. The public transport is tiny compared to even Walton, so if you have problems getting there you can multiply that for Kirkby. A few miles and bus changes and the vast majority travelling in the same direction on the handfull of routes to Kirkby out of Liverpool will turn this into an additional hour or more for many Liverpool/Wirral-based match goers. This will surely impact on our support long term!? Ok the diehards and home and awayers will go anywhere but they only equate to about 1/10th of our home support, and will not fill our new stadium wherever it is on their own. Compare this with the Loop, and I think that the opposite will be true. Planning obstacles will be minimal since it is the city’s planning department themselves that are drawing it up. Nuisance factor is also minimal since there is almost no local population. My entire family are originally from the 2 nearest parishes..... next to no-one lives there now with the nearest existing flats due for demolition imminently.Rusty: I too respect people’s decision, I just want all the options to get an equal hearing. Nothing like that is happening at the moment. I also believe that if these other options had had a chance to be fully developed, then there certainly wouldn’t be any clamouring for Kirkby at all. The comparisons of Tesco and Bestway are an irrelevance to me. Personally, as a season ticket holder (30+yrs)/shareholder I just want what’s best for Evertonians like all here. I am, believe it or not prepared to be persuaded about Kirkby, but I just can’t see it, even given the hype that has accompanied it so far. Rob 76 Posted 17/08/2007 at 08:38:24 Report abuse andymac’the professionalism of the EFC Board has been vindicated.’It’s that word professionalism that bothers me. bluenose2k 77 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:16:42 Report abuse loop di loop I take it you still live in a cave WE NOW HAVE A TEAM LETS GIVE THEM A GROUND AND THAT CAN ONLY BE KIRKBY Edge 78 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:19:45 Report abuse Option 1 - Disastrous for our image, fanbase, future. getting there and back a nightmare for many, this is financial short-termism and frankly, about as inspiring as a Mike Walker teamtalk.Option 2 - Twickenham architect says it can be redeveloped to 50,000 on current footprint (Note - NO PLANNING PERMISSION ISSUES)and aquiring of land on Bullens Road in future would increase this - Council has promised co-operation - with more TV income than ever and the ability of a redeveloped Cathedral of Football (Alex Ferguson’s words) providing more income streams (Wyness’s favourite phrase) plus huge potential for financial input from business partners regading hotels, leisure etc., Goodison is a real option. Intimidating, historic, unique - it has the X Factor.3 - Imaginative and bold, organisers deserve praise - keeps Everton in the area they belong and fair’s fair, business plan worries can only be addressed given time. Surely a better optio than Kirkby but it ain’t Goodison... Benbo 79 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:32:51 Report abuse Will those who want to move please stop telling those of us that don’t to "Use your heads, not your hearts?"I am an intelligent professional who has been supporting Everton for 35 years and worked in football finance for much of my professional life. I AM using my head and my head says GOODISON. Look beyond the glossy brochure and soundbites from footballers who know bugger all about the game’s administration and instead think what drives fans to attend matches... You need to realise that Everton’s niche market is that we are just about the only ’old school’ Club in the top flight - and that has MASSIVE marketing potential, much like LA Raiders in USA.As for the finances, it’s not as simple as "we have no money". We have huge turnover and how it is handled dictates what options we have. Goodison is a very real option and in the long run will make us more money than sharing a car park with Saturday afternoon shoppers on an industrial site in an anonymous town with no kudos nationally whatsoever. Who do you want to be, Bolton? Kazza 80 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:42:32 Report abuse If only moving 4 miles (as the crow flies) isn’t a problem, can I suggest the vacant Camel Lairds site in Birkenhead? It’s big enough, has a waterfront location like the King’s Dock project (RIP), will attract European funding, it’s on Merseyside (unlike Kirkby) AND it’s only TWO MILES (as the crow flies) from Goodison! Perfect! Suave 81 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:46:27 Report abuse Looks like 50 50 to me and if this means half the people are unhappy and the other half voted because all I hear is there is no other choice , hardly a recommendation for the board. If you were in a customer facing environment and only half your customers were sort of happy I would count this as failure. With this fan response the board need to really get back to the drawing board and start discussing more options. TheBoyAyres 82 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:48:15 Report abuse Do any of th whingers who bleat "We’ve got no money" seriously think that if the same energy and vigour that has been applied by Tesco Terry and his mate Bully to the Kirkby plan were applied to Goodison that a financial case for redevelopment copuldn’t be made?Get real - of course it could.Think about this - what happens to Goodison if it goes - could Tesco be first to snap up a huge site in the middle of the most densley populated area of Liverpool, an area where no other hypermarket currently exists? Parasites and nothing but. Mark my words - it will happen and Bully will be on the board at Tesco in no time. TheBoyAyres 83 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:54:24 Report abuse Quick point here - There is no correlationj between the stadium and the quality of our team. We have won 9 League titles (8 of them at Goodison), 5 FA Cups (all whilst at Goodison) and the European Cup Winners Cup (again, at Goodison).We degenerated on the pitch due to bad management, bad players (even when we had top dollar buying power) and appalling management in the boardroom. We became second rate due to human factors, NOT BECAUSE OF GOODISON PARK.Goodison has proven itself. Liverpool (makes me sick to say it) have won trophies for years in a ground far worse than Goodison. Successive Boards have tried to cover up their own ineptitude by blaming Goodison.Don’t fall for it. There’s nothing wrong with Goodison when the team is winning. Where would you rather be on derby day, Goodison - or a souless mechano ediface outside the city which looks like every other ground that’s been built in the last fifteen years?Derby, Middlesbrough, Bolton, Sunderland, Millwall, Leicester, Southampton, Coventry, Man City, Doncaster, Darlington, Hull - all got nice new grounds to "Propell us into the next Century" - all still crap. BE WARNED. suave 84 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:07:27 Report abuse Agree, management is key having £10m extra on players per season buys us Darren Bent after 18 months. Man utd didnt buy success they bred it with home grown players. We had them Baines, Jagielka, Nugent, Barton and in the past fowler, mcmannaman, carragher. The management is grass roots not just CEO and Tesco. liam (PrestonBlue) 85 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:25:42 Report abuse Until reading this article i was completely decided that a move to Kirby would not be the right thing to do,But after viewing the comments and opinions of so many Evertonians above I am now undecided. I have had some of the best days of my life at Goodison park and would be completely gutted to see a move away from there to Kirby,But i am also considering the ups and downs of a move. Financially the move will be great for the club and for Kirby and will see Everton competing better in years to come due to extra revenue. But Wyness has really done himself no favours by not considering any other option and stating its this or nothing,I dont know who to trust anymore! One guarantee i will give is that Everton will always be my club wherever its home and i am just hoping this Ballot will not overshadow the season ahead which to me is looking very optimistic and whatever happens i would like to see a little bit more silverware won in GP. If i had a vote it would be a no to Kirby but that is my heart ruling my head all the way . colin.fitz 86 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:50:42 Report abuse Trevor, Tom some great postings but I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that people will vote with the information that they are presented with and as the vast majority of voters don’t frequent toffeeweb it goes without saying that the vast majority will listen to the monologue eminating from the board and repeated in the press, an example of which can be found in this mornings Daily Post, they report on the preliminary designs for Bestway site stating that Everton’s firm belief is that the site is too small and will only accommodate a stadium of 25,000 capacity, rediculous as that may sound that’s the information that the majority of voters are being presented with. The only thing Kirkby offers by way of a unique selling point is that it’s cheap and won’t indebt the club, the reality is that nobody is willing to explain the details of the £100m funding that will be required save some vague references to Goodison land sale and non-specific naming rights revenue. When people like Trevor, Tom and Simon Inglis cast doubt I tend to listen and ask questions, it looks increasingly like the majority can’t be bothered and will accept what they’re told at face value. As this issue is dividing the support I’m of the firm belief that Everton have made a grave error offering the vote to the fans, they should have commissioned an independent report on moving the stadium detailing the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats surrounding the proposed move and published the findings in full after which the board and the board alone could make the decision. Then again it’s a very old military principle, divide and conquer. John 87 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:24:23 Report abuse To suggest that the exclusivity period has meant that other options have not been discussed is quite frankly naive. What is infuriating is that so called "people with Everton’s best interests at heart" have late it so late to throw forward options that are on the basis of my knowledge no more than pipe dreams. If Liverpool City Council want us to stay in the city boundaries let them put there money where their mouth is and guarantee the deal on the same basis that Everton currently have with Knowsley and within an agreed timeframe. I don’t think they will be shouting too loudly then!! Steve Ryan 88 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:22:05 Report abuse To those who repeatedly ask the question, how will the Bestway proposals be funded; the details of the financial package will be presented to us all during the next few weeks along with more detailed stadium plans. Is this so fucking difficult to understand???????Tom Hughes you have my total respect; do you sometimes feel that you are pissing in the wind mate? Benbo 89 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:34:36 Report abuse Lando Calarisian for Chairman? Love to, but Rafa Benitez paid £30 million for him only this morning so not an option, I’m afraid... Rob B 90 Posted 17/08/2007 at 09:10:47 Report abuse Those who say we have no money, please remember Kirkby is not free, it may see us paying a mortgage of between £40m - £50m, we may be paying an extra £4m - £5m pa on this.Tesco’s cash contribution is £0.Knowsley’s cash contribution is £0We pay overrun costs.We pay rent to Knowsley.Also some may find this interesting reading if you wish. It is part of Brighton’s Planning Applicationfor the Falmer Stadium and includes an article from Building magazine which demonstrates cost analasys for building football stadia and is used by the architect as a guide to the figures.http://www.lewes.gov.uk/Files/plan_falmer_reopened_jw_app_ab.pdfand this from the FSIF on improving football stadia.http://www.footballfoundation.org.uk/EasySite/lib/serveDocument.asp?doc=177&pgid=1225They should get some meat on the debate suave 91 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:27:38 Report abuse I am not just voting no to Kirkby, no for crap transport, no for a cheap stadium, no for loss of revenue, no for loss of heritage, no for no choice, no for no going back, no for current board backing - we need a wealthy sponsor, no for the infrastructure. Once we start it will be 3 years before we move in and I seriously believe we can spend 3 years looking for the best option, getting the team in Europe CL attracting real investors and exploring all options with LCC. We have to face it no additional revenue will come from Kirkby for another 4 years and then only small in comparison with current revenue and TV funding. Edge 92 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:36:06 Report abuse John, no-one left alternatives until late in the day. In 1998 fans group paid a top stadium architect (the man responsible for Twickenham) to come up with both an architectural and financial feasibility study with regard to the redevlopment of Goodison. The Club (headed then by Peter Johnson) chose to ignore it.You may have only just heard about alternatives John but they have been around for years. Unfortunately, fans do not have the media power that the Club has - therefore getting information out is not that easy. Don’t be "infuriated" - just be informed. McKinney 93 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:29:28 Report abuse To TheBoyAyersYou make a solid argument about success on the pitch not being directly comparable to the stadium and I agree totally.However, your insistance on stating that all the honours we have were won at Goodison Park confuses me. Where else were we likely to have won them? That’s been our ground for the last 100+ years so that doesn’t prove anything. Just because we have had both good and bad times at Goodison does not mean that the stadium is fit for purpose. Like anything, buildings need maintaining and modernising. Times change and with it so must the club and stadium. "There?s nothing wrong with Goodison when the team is winning" you say. Well I am sure that there are many that would argue against this. The Old Lady is looking exactly that! Obstructed views, poor concourses and food/drink outlets, putrid toilets. Add to this the fact that maintenance is not just about what you can see on the surface and it’s not a case of just stick in some more seats and give it a lick of paint.I do agree with your statements about souless stadia and lack of history, but I think you are only skirting the issue. We definitely need to move from Goodison in my opinion (reluctant as it may be) but maybe not to Kirkby and maybe not right this minute. MickeyPies 94 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:49:08 Report abuse Seems to me that despite the bias of the Club’s proposals there’s clearly going to be a NO vote. Speaking to dozens of aquaintances on Saturday, only found one who’s voted to move!Note to Kenwright - before proudly crowing that "This is the only Club which would vote on such an issue", consider this - offering a vote whilst providing information which seeks to influence voters one way only is not democracy - it is patronisation. Shame on you. Eileen Roberts 95 Posted 17/08/2007 at 11:00:58 Report abuse There I was, down in Devon for a few days with no access to a PC and no way to buy an Echo. Such excitement to come home to! And what is the excitement all about...A drawing of a roof shaped like an oval and another of what looks like a multi-storey car park with a handle! And THIS is the wonderful In-Yer-City option and proof that a 50,000 seater stadium can be built on the Loop site? Well it’s not proof to me (if proof was all that was needed)because there is necessarily more to modern stadia than just something to go into to watch a football match. Suddenly all the fervour and support for redeveloping Goodison seems to have largely evaporated and the Loop is now the Holy Grail...promoted in part by the idiots who brought you the 4th Grace and the Mathew Street debacle, supported by pretty(ish) pictures supplied by paid consultants!I respect Trevor Skempton, his drawings are beautiful (at least I assume they are his) and it would be a wonderful thing indeed if we and Everton Football Club were in a position to make that kind of a choice, with everything on the table acheivable. But we are not and that is the problem. I have no truck with the ’we will die if we go to Kirkby’ brigade,because football clubs, especially football clubs like Everton do not depend for their survival merely on the location of their stadium. Kirkby is gift, maybe not a gift we would have chosen if we would have been in the enviable position I describe, but a gift nevertheless because it is the only affordable option we have. Plan B is to stay at Goodison and to finacially stagnate. A financial stagnation accelerated by what will soon be happening on the other side of the park. Not only will we be the skint neighbours that we know we are, it will be ever more bloody obvious as The Grand Old Lady deteriorates over time, scuppering any potential for significant investment in the future.This king (the Loop) has no clothes. It is in its altogether. It is a political tactic par-excellence, designed to elicit a No vote which will neuter Everton FC. And everyone will be happy except those of us, I think the majority, who want to see this club progress. suave 96 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:22:53 Report abuse Think you have had too much clotted cream. This gift needs unwrapping a little further to see if its okay. No such thing as a free lunch and not one you can return when you find out it doesnt work. Forget the fancy paper take it our the box and see if it works. At the end of the day it is a site and if Tesco can prove finincial viability in Kirkby there are plenty more who can make a lot more of central liverpool. Forgetting insults if you were offered a similar propostion in central Liverpool vs Kirkby which one would you go for, then ask why arent we exploring the options now. Dont jump at the gift on the table because it is seen as the only option - there are more, exclusivity has prevented this, as we have seen in past 4 weeks alone. TheBoyAyres 97 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:15:19 Report abuse Mckinney, I was merely highlighting the nonsense that is the argument preferred by many pro-movers (including, shamefully, the Club) that to be successful on the pitch, we have to move. We don’t. Glad you agree.I personally want Everton to have the best stadium in the country and believe that independent evidence in the form of Terry Ward’s proposal in 1998 suggests very strongly that that can, both physically and financially, be at Goodison. Until that is investigated properly and openly, I genuinely believe we need to hold our horses before we destroy something special.There is also however an argument which many hold with, and I can entirely see their point, for keeping Goodison largely as is. Your anemic analogy of Goodison as a placid ’grand old lady’ is in my view entirely misplaced; I believe Alex Ferguson’s description of it as the "snarling pitbull of a stadium, waiting to devour any who dare to stray into it’s territory" is more apt. Anyone who was at the Beyern Munich game, the Cup derby in ’81, the ’78 Andy King derby, the Wimbledon and Coventry games - cannot possibly believe that Goodison and the unique, irreplaceable atmosphere and raw power it generated had nothing to do with those successes. Kevin Ratcliffe acknowledges this.In my opinion, a new ground simply would destroy this and weaken us as a Club and a force.Do you really want your children and grandchildren never to experience atmosphere’s like the above? A new stadium with none of Goodison’s drama and atmosphere would be a watered-down experience for all. And no, I don’t think that the special atmosphere that Goodison generates on the big occasion could be reproduced even though the same fans would be present in a new stadium.Away fans who once mocked Goodison’s facilities recently voted it the 2nd best away ground in an Observer poll. Quite simply they are starting to appreciate its unique qualities, qualities increasingly rare and valued in this day and age. It is a proper blue collar football ground.Any Tom, Dick and Harriet Club can have a new ground in Kirkby. Leicester have one. Southampton too. And Coventry. Don’t forget Middlesbrough and Derby. Only Everton can call on the raw passion generated by Goodison Park.A mate of mine put it like this - "If all I want is nice toilets, perfect views, spacious concourses, nice refreshment areas and a car parking space, the local Showcase cinema suits me fine. Personally, I have sampled what Goodison gives me as a fan over the years and no matter how many times I have felt betrayed by the board and the team, kicked in the teeth by money grabbers and had to endure the taunts of fans of other Clubs who possess a tenth of my passion yet win ten times the silverware that I do, what keeps me coming back, what makes me an Evertonian, is knowing that on those special occasions at Goodison, as a Club, no-one can touch us, no-one even gets close." SMALL AXE 98 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:28:14 Report abuse YOU MUGS ARE ALL MISSING THE POINT WITH THIS KIRKBY SCHEME DO YOU REALLY THINK WE ARE GETTING THE GROUND FOR NOTHING PAID FOR BY TESCO,WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.THEY ARE JUST USING EFC TO ACTIVATE A LOOPHOLE AND I HAVENT SEEN ANY FIGURES PUT FORWARD BY KEITH WYNESS THAT ACTUALLY SHOW WHAT EVERTONS CONTRIBUTION WILL BE.HE CAME OUT WITH SOME BULL ABOUT THE MANAGER HAVING AN EXTRA 10 MILLION TO SPEND JUST WHERE DOES HE GET THESE FIGURES FROM,HE WILL STOP AT NOTHING TO PUSH THIS GROUND MOVE THROUGH,PUSHING KIRKBY AS AN OPORTUNITY WE CANNOT LET SLIP AND TRYING TO PLAY ON FANS FEARS IS PATHETIC AND COERCING PLAYERS TO MAKE PRO-KIRKBY COMMENTS IS DESPICABLE.I BELIEVE THAT HE HAS ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED THE CITY BOUNDARY DEBATE AS IT DISTRACTS AND DIVIDES THE FANS FROM THE REAL ISSUES,ANY MOVE TO KIRKBY WILL ACTUALLY CRIPPLE THE CLUB FINANCIALLY AND LEAVE US IN AN UNESCAPABLE FUTURE OF CRIPPLING DEBT.HAVE YOU HEARD THE STORY OF THE EMPORERS NEW CLOTHES? kazza 99 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:52:10 Report abuse Went to Egypt recently - too hot and as for the pyrmaids - don’t get me started. Toilet facilities were awful, car parking was a nightmare, obstructed views all over the place, there were no refreshment facilities inside, they were small, cramped and old fashioned and they needed more than a lick of paint I can tell you. More worryingly, their lack of corporate facilities seriously damages their income streams and there is just no room for expansion. I love the pyramids as much as anyone, but when are the Egyptians going to move with the times and get real? They’ll never win anything if they stay there. The sooner they are knocked down and more modern versions built out of town the better.And as for the Taj Mahal, now there’s a dump... Mark 100 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:47:03 Report abuse Boston Bob: who’s going to pay for the all of that mate? Additionally, I don’t know whether you’re from Boston US or UK, but I’ve had the pleasure of watching the NE Pats at the Gillette Stadium in - out of town - Foxboro, where they relocated 30 MILES from Boston in the 70’s. Makes kirkby sound heavenly! McKinney 101 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:57:36 Report abuse TheBoyAyersSome good points in that eloquent response and I agree with most of it.I want to believe that Goodison is an option but most of the feedback suggests that it is not viable, even if we had the money. I have read many suggestions that Goodison would cost as much to redevelop as building a new stadium. Then, most of the comeback to that argument just expects me to take things for granted and trust people in the same way that I would be called an idiot and a traitor if I trust the board. Nothing’s ever as good as it is first billed. One thing that worries me from reading all the comments from fans on this topic is that I feel that any future option/site would be subjected to the same efforts to derail or rubbish it as this one. A lot of the reasons that certain people give for not trusting the Kirkby proposal, can and will be applied by others to any future alternatives. See my point?I fear that even with a NO vote, this will trundle on forever, with no agreement ever reached. If GP can be developed it would require a larger footprint. Say what you want but I am sure of that. Not sure this can be achieved and no idea how it would be funded. Luxury Hotel, come on. I prefer the retail option. Also, we are taking the attitude that no new stadia can provide the atmosphere of which Goodison is currently home. So what are we saying? Moving ground is never an option for us? I feel that people (not directed at you) are not appreciating all sides of the issue. Everyone seems to focus on whatever part of the argument they feel best gets their point across.As I have said before, I am glad I don’t have a vote, because to be quite honest, I still don’t have a clue!!One thing I will say though, Alex Ferguson and other managers are talking about how difficult it is for their team to come there and win. It’s not really a reference to how good the stadium is. That would be measured by a number of different factors, including atmosphere and facilities.I am very proud of GP and what it stands for but I have yet to see anything that gives me any hope of a viable redevelopment. Suppose that’s another argument for more time, but do we have it? Blue Balls 102 Posted 17/08/2007 at 13:22:54 Report abuse Small AxeWHY ARE YOU WRITING, IN CAPITALS ARE YOU SHOUTING?I see what you are saying, you obviously do not trust the board. Ok, they haven’t given you a great deal of reason to. However, the club/board (people who run the business) have obviously decided that Kirkby is the right option and are therefore backing it. I don’t really see that it is particularly underhand, bias maybe but not underhand. As many fans on here have proved, they are too intelligent to just be taken in by comments from Cahill and Moyes. I have confidence that a lot of them will look at as much info as poss before making a decision and let’s face it there is an organised counter campaign (with just as much propaganda) in place.Anyway, GOODBYE FOR NOW. nick 103 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:02:19 Report abuse The clubs we aspire to compete with have all had the advantage of significant investment. The Kirkby option offers a sizeable offer to invest in the club in a lasting way - investing in a new permanent home rather than in transfer fees and players’ wages.Kenwright has in the past few years presided over the renaissance of the club, taking us from the dark days of those Wimbledon and Coventry matches to a position where we will be disappointed if we don’t qualify for Europe.To take the next step in returning Everton to the top we need a stadium which will facilitate increased revenues and investment. I trust Kenwright to complete the job. That’s why I voted yes. SMALL AXE 104 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:21:24 Report abuse Blue Balls you are confident fans will look at as much info, as poss hey WAKE UP there is no info, a picture of a ground stolen from the cover of a computer game box and spin and nonesense from wyness this is what worrys me how can anyone be pro-kirkby going on the tripe we have heard coming from wyness and Ross and Leahy is a shining beacon of objectivity isnt he!Dont be fooled by these corporate crooks the progression of EFC isnt evn on the agenda of these carpetbaggers. footiefan 105 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:37:22 Report abuse i cant believe your questioning bestway funding - it owns a bank for heaven sake. im for the loop still. Mr Ado 106 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:35:07 Report abuse Basically Bestway’s proposal has come too late in the day and doesn’t seem viable anyway.What a lot of the naysayers are forgetting is that the only reason we are even getting a sniff at a new stadium is because it will be partly funded by Tesco. Tesco already have a bazillion stores in Liverpool and they don’t need another but they do need one in Kirkby. Simple as that.The bestway "graphics" (if they can be called that) look rubbish anyway - it looks like some kind of weird toilet from one angle.Liverpool City Council can suck my balls quite frankly, they’ve had years to sort something out for us yet they’ve been too busy helping out the red shite. It’s their loss when this great club leaves the city boundaries and kirkby gets a massive boost from the thousands that will flock through its town centre every saturday. As for redeveloping Goodison, I would LOVE that to happen, then everybody wins but there is literally no money to do that. We must accept this with a heavy heart and move on. Voting no will mean NOTHING will happen, the other "options" have already been discredited. Voting no won’t mean they will be explored because they are already being dismisssed. We will stay and rot at an aging stadium, fall further behind other clubs financially and then NEVER have a realistic chance of becoming a trophy challenging team like we where 20 years ago. That can simply not be an option. We’ll fade into obscurity. We all know our history but to cling to it with no foresight is foolish. There can be new glories at kirkby, it can be a fortress, home to a team that can get investment to buy great players. 10million a season is, in my opinion, only the start. There will surely be more investment coming in to an attractive proposition such as Everton. Arteta and Cahill signed new deals because they see that if we move to a new ground soon we can have a bright future. If we vote no to kirkby we are voting no to progress. The plans for the kirkby ground look amazing, not many people can deny that. A modern home befitting the great Everton in the modern world of Football. suave 107 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:37:09 Report abuse Reading all the fanzines reveals a fair proportion of responses from the Leahy consortium and Mr Ado you simply fall straight into this camp. All Stadiums look like weird toilets. Dont believe for one minute tesco dont want another store in Liverpool.Voting No means a kick up the arse for our board to do what they should have done in first place and look at all options. The Kirkby option is the only one simply because Tesco wanted this not the board. Further investment in Everton at Kirkby us surely a joke if you consider the alternative investment in Everton at the heart of the greatest city.Using players as bait is rediculous they signed because we are in Europe and for the wages not a promise of a new stadium in 3 years time. Somebody has already stated this is for the long term for EFC and not necessarily the current crop of players. How many players have joined EFC because of the passsion of the city, the people, the ground. See who is attracted by a tin funny shaped toilet in a field in Kirkby.The plans for Kirkby to be honest remind me of Blackburn and Warrington RLC (also a tesco site)and this is not so great. Not sure anything will change peoples minds now anyway you are either for it because you have to be or you have been convinced by the glossy brochure, or you are aginst it because you have a heart and a head which can see past the hype. SMALL AXE 108 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:37:09 Report abuse MR.ADO Bestways proposal has come to late in the day,i dont see how any alternative can be dismissed so easily when we are considering the future of Everton Football Club,the bestway graphics are very basic but dont fall into the trap of its Kirkby or Bestway this is not what we are being asked to vote on.Surely no fan could vote yes purely on the limited info we have had from the club.If it is a no vote the club wont shrivel up and die,alternative investors and owners will come into the club and the ground issue will be taken up by any potential new owner,and please dont kid yourself that the signing of new contracts by certain players was in any way influenced by any proposed ground move,these players along with wyness and kenwright would no longer be at the club by the time any potential move to Kirkby was complete.Dont make any decision on the look of a computer graphic,they will bear little resemblance to any decisive architectural drawings anyway Dom Phoenix 109 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:45:33 Report abuse Matty- I think you’ll find I said: don’t listen to anyone but yourself- that doesn’t mean don’t read the facts and whats in front of you before making an informed decision- as I have. The point I was making is I wouldn’t dare tell anyone how to vote and nor should anyone else. As for burrying your head in the sand don’t make me laugh child! What do we have other than Kirkby? It smacks to me of burrying ones head in the sand and hoping in blind faith one of the other options might suddenly become viable! With what money?! We’ve got some monopoly money round here somewhere...... now... I wonder if anyone has thought about the possibility of a new stadium up the side of St. Johns tower..... Pretty stadium plans are all well and good but we don’t have the money. Sorry but I just don’t see any way other than Kirkby so I’m going to support MY club. suave 110 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:09:40 Report abuse Bury your head in the sand or go and look at Pompey web site. Where are a 2nd rate premiership club getting £600m from. Now think of the art of the possible not a cheap quick win solution. If Pompey can do it what the hell are we doing about it rolling over to Tesco. This is certainly not Monoply money it is possible and surely we have more to offer than Pompey..http://www.pompeyfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewStadiumDetail/0,,10396~1016037,00.htmlThis also looks like a funny shaped toilet. SMALL AXE 111 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:35:51 Report abuse Dom Phoenix - head in the sand , viability,monopoly money,blind faith,pretty stadium plans,we dont have the money,exactly thats why a no to Kirkby is crucial to the clubs future.The pitfalls and problems of other proposals are not a reason to vote yes to Kirkby,as i stated previously there has been not a crumb of info from the club that supports the financial viability of the Kirkby proposal,stop swallowing the wyness hook that its now or never its bogus suave 112 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:07:00 Report abuse If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer isnt funny how everything looks like a nail.Our tools in the toolbox cant see other options like many of our fans, that is not to blame it is simply to say they dont know how or cant think outside the box.If my job was running a football club I would not be experienced enough to seek partnership and property deals that we need.If i was a housebuilder I can build great houses but not a hotel.If I was running Tesco I would be looking within.We need a brighter spanner who knows what they are doing. Peel holdings for example take a derelict piece of land next to a sewarage farm and transform to the largest shopping centre in Europe.They take docklands from Mersey Docks and propose £5bn development.They dont have money under the matress they use their knowledge, the markets and invest.We have apathy what else is there, we have no money, were going to struggle.Think big and you will win big. If you aim for the stars and land on the moon at least you got to the moon. Believe in Kirkby and you will end up in Kirkby. Sticky Toffee 113 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:49:30 Report abuse GuysPerhaps we should just forget the stadium vote and have a vote of (no) confidence in the board?It seems to me that the majority (not all granted) of people against the move wouldn’t trust BK & Co as far as they could spit into a gale force wind. They base a lot of their argument on the poor handling of the club, lies and propaganda that the board are apparently spewing. According to some there is no decision to be made as the Kirkby option is all lies, smoke and mirrors. Whether you believe any of that or not, from reading the posts following various articles on this issue (page after page after page) I am beginning to feel that the trust issue is the major player here.Anyone? suave 114 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:57:25 Report abuse Trust is not the issue for me, I believe they have the right interests for the club. You dont know what you dont know and the board need to recognise this. They are not the people to find, secure build property, they dont know how to secure investors. They need help, a vote in kirkby endorses the board a no vote is a slap over the head and they need advice. Sticky Toffee 115 Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:05:13 Report abuse SuaveFair point well made. Not so sure that everyone’s thinking that way though (too many posts to refer you to).I am concerned though at where we keep finding the funds each year to give Moyes to help keep the improvement/progression going. I think we need to get something sorted within the next 5 years to secure our financial position. We’re just begging and borrowing at the moment based on future revenues. What future revenues and what are we going to borrow against next time we need £15-20m for players. Man Utd just spent £50m improving a championship winning side! I concede that many have offered good arguments for both sides, but I feel we need to address our money making and ’investment inviting’ prowess. Whether it be Kirkby or another site. Can we find somewhere else in 5 years, considering we will then need to build the place, taking even longer. Barry Norman 116 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:28:21 Report abuse The demise of EFC Written by Andrew Floyd WebheadProduced by Bill Kenwright Directed by Keith WynessThe Plot:A poor family is conned into leaving their historical home in a fruitless search for a better life away from their spiritual homeland.The promise of riches inevitably is pie in the sky and left with the crippling debt of their new residence drift aimlessly for years eventually losing track of their roots and dying an unfulfilled and premature death.VERDICT-A dire story should never have been given birth to. suave 117 Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:17:23 Report abuse Think it is part of my point, if we have a small part of the footprint in Kirkby we are wholly dependent on supporters revenue, ie Tesco take the rest from surrounding development. This is what is in it for Tesco. We have not exploited options with other developers / investors who want to make a name for themselves and will concede market share to EFC. Tesco have the name and they can bully us here ie we get the stadium only. We can make more from other investors and with LCC backing force a better deal for us. Portsmouth I am sure are making more than the ground investment from surrounding devleopments and a small percenatge of £600m is more than potential revenue increase (which may reduce also) from an out of town stadium.My point is I dont know either, I know our board dont know and I see other clubs , property co, asset mgt companies making huge investments and returns. I see us making small token gestures to get a ground where lots of people dont want to go and no evidence of real growth. Blue In Bolton 118 Posted 17/08/2007 at 19:37:47 Report abuse The Loop site Scotland Road = Total non starter for many reasons.Staying at Goodison.. though a wonderful thought..would be suicide.Kirby is the Best option , and the more i hear about the so called alternatives..the more i believe it. Spanish Billy 119 Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:16:03 Report abuse Blue in Bolton you do make me laugh. You out of everyone should realise what a shite decision it was for Bolton to move out of town. Congestion, empty seats, empty exec boxers, no atmosphere, stadium done on the cheap (no corners) sounds a bit like the kirkby option to me, except Bolton do have considerably more car parking than 1,000 at kirkby.By the way what are those reasons for not giving the loop an investigating. John Littler 120 Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:53:57 Report abuse Tom Hughes, Colin Fitz - can i just say that you are both incredibly articulate guys and have provided both compelling and incredibly rational arguments against the move to kirkby. so much so that in my throws of indecision over what to do with my vote you have convinced me wholeheartedly that at this point in the "move stadium" precedings it can only be "no."i emplore you to take the core of the vast majority of your thoughts / arguments posted on this website over the past few weeks and inject them into the various other EFC websites (both unofficial and particalry official). we need to at least try and provide some sort of balance to the information available to the voting fans out there even though the hierarchy at Everton seem not to share this view gary oflynn 121 Posted 17/08/2007 at 21:14:36 Report abuse senior stadium analyst insists plans put forward for a ground on the Scotland Road ’loop’ site in Liverpool would not be able to accomodate 50,000 seats.Earlier this summer the Blues announced plans to move to a brand new 50,000 seater stadium in Kirkby, as well as confirming that a fans’ vote over the move would take place before any move is agreed.Earlier this month, following the distribution of ballot papers, Liverpool City Council released a joint statement with cash & carry business Bestway detailing plans for a potential development at the Scotland Road site.Tim Spencer, Director at Steer Davies Gleave - the company responsible for transport, crowd flow and evacuation capacity analysis for the Emirates Stadium, Croke Park, New Wembley and Stamford Bridge has dismissed the feasibility of the ’loop’ site on Scotland Road as a possible site for a high specification 50,000 seat stadium.After closely studying the site setting and current accessibility, Mr Spencer is quite adamant that the circa. 11-acre site could only safely house a stadium of around 30,000, although that figure could be stretched to a limit of 35,000.Mr Spencer said: "It has been stated in the press that the Emirates Stadium occupies an 8-acre site. Ashburton Grove is in fact a 25-acre site with the stadium building itself taking up some 9-acres with a further 8 acres allocated to crowd circulation and access routes - with the remainder being given over to mostly residential development. The full and safe stadium operation therefore occupies 17 acres not the said 8."Owing to the onerous requirements regarding emergency vehicle access and the exact evacuation requirements for major sporting facilities, any stadium design must include large external circulation areas around the stadium to achieve a safety certificate - the licence to operate."Should the vast majority (i.e. enough land to accommodate a 50,000 capacity building) of the ’loop’ site be developed out into a stadium, it could not meet the key criteria to receive its safety licence and it could not be opened to the public.""The requirements are black and white on this subject. The site would only be, at best, suitable for a stadium of around 35,000 seats."To make the design revealed today operate in a safe fashion would prove to be prohibitively expensive for Everton Football Club because of the necessary and perhaps extensive ’air right’ building construction over highways and the need to provide connecting bridges to adjacent ’place of safety’ areas and adequate pedestrian circulation and emergency vehicle access routes."All of this would have to be funded at great cost without the benefit of any large retail-led development that would, in the case of Kirkby, enable the development of a stadium with no operating/licensing risk to the club."Despite the very wide roads that surround the loop site on all sides the local transport links to the area are not very good - especially when compared to Kirkby given the raft of local transport improvements that would come forward with the new stadium there."In short, the loop site is a complete non-starter for Everton FC unless they were seeking a site to accommodate 35,000 fans and no more." John Littler 122 Posted 17/08/2007 at 22:06:07 Report abuse gary oflynn -"To make the design revealed today operate in a safe fashion would prove to be prohibitively expensive for Everton Football Club" so basically this means that it can be done, but at an astronomical price. do you really think that Bestway are completely oblivious to EFC’s financial plight and wont incorporate into their business proposals to finance this? it’s hardly in their best interests to come up with something that just simply can’t be worked or afforded by EFC now is it? surely that would just be an exercise in how to waste your time in an incredibly expensive fashion? mike benjamin 123 Posted 17/08/2007 at 22:10:14 Report abuse If anyone is going to cite other stadia built out of town for the reason for not moving to kirkby....then please do not include Bolton. More go to the Reebok than ever went to Burnden from the early 80’s onwards Steve B 124 Posted 17/08/2007 at 22:14:09 Report abuse What we know is Bestway unfortunately will not provide the commercial backing to build the stadium on the Loop site. They want to prove the feasibility of the site for a stadium because they want to sell the land to any commercial partner who will work with Everton to develop the site. Can anyone tell to me who that commercial partner will be? That’s a genuine question by the way. SMALL AXE 125 Posted 17/08/2007 at 22:22:43 Report abuse i cant believe anyone is still pushing Kirkby because The Loop "is no good" for fucks sake its not a matter of either or,the vote is a yes or no for Kirkby and from what weve had from wyness surely anyone with a brain cell could not vote yes there is just no substance to anything ive heard from anyone at EFC Tom Hughes 126 Posted 17/08/2007 at 22:18:40 Report abuse The Tim Spencer article mentions certain design criteria that cannot be complied with at this site. It fails to specify which ones these are and why. The mention of public transport is farcical, for a start it is surely outside his remit on this issue and secondly his ignorance of Liverpool’s transport infrastructure is glaring in his remarks. There can never be any comparison between Kirkby and Liverpool city-centre in terms of public transport provision. The vast majority of this city’s bus services terminate or pass through the centre of Liverpool. Hundreds of thousands travel to and from it every day. The main line train station is around the corner as is the Wirral line and all northern line routes. Even if the tram link was introduced Liverpool city-centre would be at the other end of it, meaning there would not be any additional benefit as compared to the city-centre. The city centre is the focal point of the city region and beyond that is a demographic and logistical constant that no number of experts can change! This can never be shifted or relocated to Kirkby. How can the circulation issues be really commented on at this stage(which incidentally can take place on different levels around the stadium)? How can he be adamant about anything based on initial sketches etc? The whole content and the motive for it’s creation stinks in my opinion. These are throw away comments passed off as anlysis, and appear to be the result of a 5 minute perusal with the brief of finding a worse case scenario. Similarly the club wheeling out KSS to attempt rubbish a concept design...... There is absolutely no substance in the content of any of the statements that have been commissioned by the club. How come the club have not requested the full plans (not the abridged write up that was rushed through)? If they did they would know that they have been validated by structural designers not interior designers. Why hasn’t the club which supposedly wished to exhaust all the options not embraced the possibility of these new ones? Why have they felt the need to give us the hard sell at every opportunity. Surely the best option will sell itself! John Littler 127 Posted 18/08/2007 at 00:08:12 Report abuse Does anybody know why EFC displayed a different diagram of the prposed stadium at the loop site on their website? the stadium on the EFC website is not the same design nor is it orientated the same way as that on the KEIOC website. in fact the stadium’s much bigger and appears to take up a lot more of the site and in fact doesn’t actually fit on there! Possibly there are some copyright issues? I don?t know I?m no expert, but I seriously doubt that anybody associated with the Bestway design would be hauling them before a judge to sue them for breach of copyright do you!? Or is it perhaps the fact the EFC spin machine was once again in full swing attempting to discredit the Bestway proposals and thus further promote the Kirkby move? Who knows I can only speculate, but I?ll leave you to make your own minds up. TRIGGER THE BLUE 128 Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:55:30 Report abuse I love goodison pk its the HOME of the only team that matters!Theres no better for night matches.I have looked at the loop and its not a big enough site if we want the best.I dont want to move out the city but what have l/pool city council done to help us? NOTHING! There are surely sites in the city but no funds! Goodison as great as its been is old and decrepid i hate to say it,but what other option is there unless a billioniare EVERTONIAN comes and buys the club and that doesn?t look like its going to happen in the near future. My heart says redevelop GOODISON but think its to far gone and too expensive we need to stay in the city! But at the moment kirby is the only realistic option if we want to compete on the pitch otherwise we are going to fall way,way behind your arsenals,chelseas and even the likes of you no who(cant bring myself to say it!)... K.E.I.O.C are doing a grand job what ever the outcome of the vote and we all know how much Bill Kenwright loves the club after all we are chosen! bootle blue 129 Posted 18/08/2007 at 10:40:11 Report abuse Kirby is a non-starter as far as I’m concerned. We’ll get a stadium we will struggle to fill. No opprtunity for additional revenue streams. We can no longer leverage being a Liverpool club in a world heritage site. We still have to fork out a massive amount of cash, and what for? better sight lines? Kirby is an expensive mistake, and remember the reason the Loop was discounted by Tesco was because they would not be able to fit ab uber-tesco store on the site. Mark Wilson (Rusty Man) 130 Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:18:18 Report abuse Tom and others......What chance have supporters got of reaching a fair conclusion on the debate when respected professional, experts, and consultants seem to be spending most of their time rubbishing each others statements ?Tim Spencer has little detail to go on, I will accept that. Not sure Tom that you have any more detail about the Loop Site than he does. My reading suggests that Tim Spencers "credentials" are as sound as yours or any of the professionals called upon to comment. All of you are voicing opinions based on relatively little concrete information.Tom you must be right however about Tim Spencers lack of local knowledge and frankly I think this is underscored by his comments on the transport argument. But the Loop Site, which seems a genuine if difficult to assess option, has one glaring drawback. It really does feel like a small site for this scale of development and surely Tim Spencers critique is not total nonsense when he talks about the footprint of the Emirates stadium taking nearly 9 acres and virtually the same again being required for access and large scale supporter flows to and from the stadium ?Tom, the Arsenal site is 25 acres and the Loop Site is....well...not ! I can agree with your views on transport but when it comes to building not just a stadium but a commercial complex on the site as well......I just think you are not being fair in your argument unless you accept that to do this must surely require very significant enabling construction.....and heres the question....No ESF1 money in the city and NWDA funds already promised to Liverpool FC.....who will pay for the millions needed to build bridges etc at the Loop Site ?Tom, I meant what I said about "respect". You and KEOIC etc are doing us a service with informed comment that helps us see the alternatives in a more reasoned way. Frankly I expect EFC to try to win the argument and why shouldnt they......it is their position that the move to Kirkby is THE deal....so why shouldnt they be allowed the same right to counter-argue points about the Loop Site ?But crumbs...its very hard to pick the reasoned from the biased, the emotional from the pragmatic and.....right from wrong in this debate.I made my judgement and it was "yes" and I have seen some comments that make me look closely at the argument again, but still nothing that changes my mind. But then I still think a yes vote is not the end of the issue......unless the Loop Site is genuinely not an option ? Because if it is then there is still time before contracts are signed for a change of stance but LCC and others have to continue to develop the idea and prove it can work.Anyways.......the boys are at Reading later this afternoon and perhaps we can suspend the argument for a few hours to direct our "spirit" in a southernly direction !cheers, Mark (Rusty Man) Steve B 131 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:07:09 Report abuse When the decision is made by the fans, let’s get behind it and support it and put an end to the divisive debates that I think have been truly horrible and depressing. I don’t see any benefit by discussing it further as nothing will change my vote now. Jakub Kollar 132 Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:44:29 Report abuse Please vote NO for Kirkby. It´s fucking step back. mark 133 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:38:45 Report abuse as impressive as those designs look and sound i just dont think your living in the real world, its a sorry situation but it seems bk an co. arent interested about any plans of this sort due to the financial side of things. its not going to happen sorry... Tom Hughes 134 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:20:33 Report abuse Rusty: It’s unfortunate but with the very limited resources and time available it is difficult to counter these arguments. We also do not have the local media in our pocket to reinforce our concerns therefore, we may appear to be pragmatic or even overpowering in our stance, this is simply because we are playing catch-up continually. It is also very easy for the club to generate these statements, I have seen many similarly worded reports for various projects I’ve been involved in when I worked for a major construction orginisation. Read it again, it says very little but manages to emphasise alsorts. The size of the site issue is dumbfounding for me. First the club says the site cannot physically hold a 50,000 stadium this is instantly demonstrated otherwise. (as it was at GP) so then they introduce the black art of "circulation and access/egress", without actually mentioning any measurements or analysis of the site (again they did similar at GP). They are all throw away statements, the nonsense about public transport surely removing any credibility of this statement. The whole site is a blank canvas. There is next to nothing around it, it can almost be as big or as little as they want. Practically one whole side will be wide open to access from the city centre, with similar access available at 2 ends, and perhaps even the third side via the hotel. The areas North and South will be fully available for redevelopment and enabling projects. These have the potential to release far greater funds per sq. metre than the out of town option. In the extended city-centre this will become prime land. As far as the real size of the Emirates stadium, this really is cooking the books in the extreme. The stadium covers a smaller area than the loop..... that is the only fact in the statement. The surrounding area is severely constrained by rail lines. Stretching the envelope arbitrarilly to suit an argument is plain nonsense. Compare the densities around both sites, and you will see there is no comparison. Also, as far as the club pushing the kirkby option, we’ll have to agree to differ, my feelings are that they should be only pushing for the best option for this club. I haven’t seen anything to prove that this is in Kirkby, and they haven’t seen anything yet to prove that the Loop isn’t. CK12804 135 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:57:11 Report abuse Wot is wrong with all u people???The club has been offered the chance to have a stadium built for next to nothing and ur all moaning because its not in the city.Wel lets face it we all know it is in the city really even though thats not official.I think the only reason that ur all moaning is the face that u may have to travel a little further.Well thats life and im afraid u mite just have to consider the train or the bus!!!!This is typical of evertonians and the people of Liverpool. The fact that people wont go along with things means that nothing gets done.And im afraid this is a criticism of the board too. Which other football club in the league has a ballot?????????????? U have go to be kiddin me.......U r the board....the ones who are paid a lot of money to make big decisions.If u want me to make the decisions pay me ur wages!!!! Lack of leadership on this one and a typical Kenwright plan of action!!!Dont give us the choice give us the solution which i believe is Kirkby. CK12804 136 Posted 18/08/2007 at 13:03:16 Report abuse AND JUST TO REPEAT THAT MESSAGE:WE SHOULD NOT BE MAKING THE DECISION....WE ARE THE SUPPORTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SO ALL GET A GRIP Tom Hughes 137 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:59:00 Report abuse Mark: I think you will find that Bestway combined with this location can achieve more than Tesco in Kirkby. They have also said that they are prepared to invest in the club, which Tesco never have. These people are serious, as are the city planning department. Tom Hughes 138 Posted 18/08/2007 at 13:08:00 Report abuse CK: We are the club. Without us it literally ceases to exist! I am also a shareholder, so I would expect some say in the matter...... but to be honest no more than the average blue!! I believe Barcelona operate a similar system.... they don’t seem to do too badly! BTW, were does it say this stadium will be for next to nothing? How much is that exactly? If you didn’t know the cost of your new home would you really sign a blank cheque? CK12804 139 Posted 18/08/2007 at 13:16:58 Report abuse FFS TH:Really no disrespect but do u not see wot im saying here.The board are being paid to make the decisions and instead they are passing the buck to us.The reason for this is because there are that many different oppinions they cannott please everyone.The fans need to put up or shut up!!! Thats wot im sayin this kirkby thing is a massive opportunity and as a share holder u should be ashamed of urself suave 140 Posted 18/08/2007 at 14:12:19 Report abuse If you had an old banger and went to a showroom to buy a car and they only had 1 car would you not think about going to another car showroom. I wouldThe board are paid to run a football club and need to recognise they have zero knowledge about property dealing, investment mgt etc. They are borrowing money from high st banks as if it was a mortgage on a house and paying rediculous interest rates. They have no clue whatsoever. They produce a glossy borchure and convince you sheep they know what they are doing. They dont and the deal on the table proves this. Why are we letting Tesco take the lions share of the profit, they need us and if they dont why are we dealing with them. The boardroom at Tesco apart from 1 dont give a ff about EFC they simply want profit and they are getting it from us.Work with better property investors not a supermarket chain for gods sake leverage the council who are bending over backwards, leverage Bestway who want to make a name for themselves, leverag Peel Holdings who seen to know how to do this sort of thing. Dont put your faith in a playwright, CE who is acting like a spoilt child, a supermarket chain they dont make the sort of team you would have erecting a tent let alone a super stadium. There you go just said it super stadium that is what we need not simply a stadium in Kirkby. Pompey have proved they can do it have a look why cant we.My votes are in all 3 (family)say NO so noone to convince me otherwise. If a yes vote is carried gurantee this will not rest it is the wrong decision and I cant watch us fail again. It is too important. suave 141 Posted 18/08/2007 at 14:34:23 Report abuse Before i go and watch game. I ask you all simply look at Pompey web site and ask your self how they have done it and why we cant.No emotion - just simple observation. If there is a chain of investors behind Pompey ask yourself again why we cant get this.Ask yourself why people invest in other clubs and how much personal money they put in - they dont, they use other peoples money -why cant we do this.Then ask yourself is kirkby best for the club nil satis nisi optimum.Then why are you accepting 2nd best. Bernard Mathews 142 Posted 18/08/2007 at 14:51:14 Report abuse CK12804 What are you on about"the fans need to put up or shut up " put what up exactly,your the kind of turkey that would vote for Christmas.The boundary issue is a major one but leave that aside and look at the facts,you cant because as far as Kirkby goes there are no concrete facts,show you a nice picture and your sold on the idea.The garbage we’ve heard from "pie-in-the-sky" wyness has been nonesensical soundbites fed to his pals in the local media,he has never been prepared to answer any awkward questions with regards to the financing of the Kirkby plan and has swerved them with the skill of a politician,refusing to reply to any question he hadnt already been briefed on.Cranberry sauce anyone? graham 143 Posted 18/08/2007 at 17:17:41 Report abuse Could all those people who keep going on about the city boundary please get the real point. The issue is the new stadiums location in relation to our city centre.Ask yourself 1. which site would get the most supporters attending the game Kirkby or Scotland Rd.. Which site would be most visible providing a physical marketing tool promoting the club to the people of the city region.. Which site is best positioned to benefit from none match day related business eg pop concerts stadium tours resteraunts weddings etc. I guess most of you would say scotland Rd.If not take a short strole and see how easy it is to access from the city centre.even if the initial cost was to be marginally greater the long term growth of the buiseness would be greater than the invisable site at the edge of our city region.I repeat this is not about the city boundary this is about the potential to grow the buiseness in the long term at a city centre site.Please give us a chance to look at other options, if they are not possible then we will have to accept the out of town shopping centre which we all spend most of our time avoiding.Vote no, Graham ( The Paddock) John Littler 144 Posted 18/08/2007 at 18:19:15 Report abuse spot on graham spot on!does anybody have any idea when bestway plan to release the next stage of their proposal? CK12804 145 Posted 18/08/2007 at 19:35:21 Report abuse Wrong Wrong WrongThe board are paid to make the decisions and all we are doing is making it near impossible for us to get a new stadium.We need to learn, the only way forward is by co operation and we never give that which is why most things dont happen.The supporters should do the supporting and the board should be making the decisions!!!!!! Bernard Mathews 146 Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:28:21 Report abuse CK12804 going by your logic we should support anything the board should decide as we are only supporters and should stick to singing happy songs and waving scarves while the club is asset stripped and then launched up the river Alt without a paddle.pass the cranberry CK12804 147 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:34:27 Report abuse No my logic is that there is nothing wrong with what the board is proposing on this one and provided this is a case they should be making the decisions.In the case that they make the wrong decision then we should have something to say.However, the fact that people might have to travel a little further, which if people are honest is the only problem, then im afraid thats life and the board should be praised for making the right decision for the club as a whole instead of pleasing a few of the lazier fans.They are making the club more successful so i say.... go ahead make the decisions until u cause a problem.And if you are one of them lazy fans then im sorry but it really hasnt got anything to do with cranberry sauce...and if u want to insult someones view point come up with ur own joke!!! Gimp! His was lame anyway! John Littler 148 Posted 19/08/2007 at 00:43:36 Report abuse CK12804 - so you honestly think that the only problem anybody actually has with the whole kirkby move is how far they have to travel? nothing perhaps to do with the somewhat limted commercial opportunities we will have at that site as opposed to a city centre site?i’ve said this previously that if we do end with a yes vote that kirkby wont be the end of EFC, but it will NOT allow us to reach our maximum potential given the limited opportunities for generating revenue in addition to gate receipts. you do want the best for EFC don’t you? what’s that motto again .......... nil satis ........ Bernard Mathews 149 Posted 19/08/2007 at 10:58:58 Report abuse CK12804 i have travelled all over the country and abroad following EFC so the fact that Kirkby is 4 miles further out does not bother me in the least,the boundary issue is certainly a big reason for a no vote in my view,but the main reason i am opposed to Kirkby is that it is most certainly not the best move for a club our size.We are not Bolton,Derby or Southhampton and i do not wish to do my shopping or take in a movie before the game.I also dont see how the board are making us more successful,theyre only ambition seems to be to maintain the status quo,your buying into the Sky sport bullshit(they invented football you know)were success is for your team to maintain their premiership status while looking admiringly up at the top four,well mediocrity is not what i want to see for this famous football club and thats all we will get,at best,from a stadium built out in Kirkby.more cranberry i think! Stan Howard 150 Posted 19/08/2007 at 11:39:54 Report abuse i could understand efc supporters voting yes if they believed only half of the statements from the club were only half true, everyone knows the other half are lies as for mr fixer derek the capitalist hatton agreeing with the move and saying you should have had no vote or say in the matter, you only have to look at his track record of self interest betrayal and failure. the local media coverage has been shamefully baised - you have been done up like a blue kipper - GOODISON IS YOUR HOME IT CAN BE REBUILT AND RENEWED YOU CAN GET A BUYER AND YOU CAN GO FORWARD BUT THE MAJORITY WILL VOTE WITH WHAT THEY FONDLY CALL THEIR HEADS (USED ONLY FOR COMBING HAIR, PUTTING HATS ON AND TAKING IN LIES) THE FIRST LOT OF SKY CASH WILL SOON BE SPENT AND EVERTHING DEPENDS ON HOW WELL THE TEAM THEN DO NOTHING LESS THAN EXCEPTIONAL SUCCESS THIS SEASON OR NEXT WILL STOP THE CLUB FROM MELDOWN, THE PROBLEMS OF THE MOVE HAVE NOT EVEN NEARLY STARTED NOR HAVE THE INSIDE POLITICS. Darren Dempsey 151 Posted 19/08/2007 at 21:17:14 Report abuse Come on all EVERTONIANS think rationally,realisticly! We cant afford a new stadium on our own unless some billionaire EVERTONIAN buys us which doesnt look like happening does it? I hate to say it the only option is jumping into bed with tesco and getting a new stadium unluckily that is going to be kirkby! I Love GOODISON PARK but its had its day lets face facts! K.E.I.O.C are the a great job but i dont this will be enough. Tom Hughes 152 Posted 20/08/2007 at 11:08:27 Report abuse Darren: I think its very realistic and rational to think that new investment is possible. Look around you, they are dropping like flies. From the likes of Liverpool down to Portsmouth, almost unbelieveable investment/stadium packages are being revealed. Also, given a few more weeks, the Bestway proposal will have more meat on its bones. There are other options, and if allowed a bit more time they will see off any thoughts of Kirkby.....that’s why we are being railroaded into this!!! The club knows that almost ANY other option will be more attractive than their solution if they are allowed to grow into a fully developed project. © ToffeeWeb