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Michael how long I will be censored? its been 2 months and I am getting frustrated.
It is worth remembering that Everton have always had terrific support from the Wirral and North Wales, for whom inner-city and central Liverpool is a natural focus, which an out-of-town location like Kirkby will never be.
spot on trevor, some on here just don?t get it.
Good article Jim, think you’ve highlighted the root of the objections from some of the no camp. Good to read an article on here on the subject that isn’t ranting or stating opinions as fact.
Sure you’ll still get lot of negative comments off some but think you’ve covered some good points
Sure you’ll still get lot of negative comments off some but think you’ve covered some good points
I wont rant on Jim, I give the no voters a bad name, so just a few little questions for ya: 1. Are you under the impression we are being offered a version of the Emirates only in Kirkby? If so - have you read anything about the mid-range stadia attached to a supermarket currently on offer? 2. Where are we getting the £78m required to fund Kirkby? And if thats a simple answer, why aint we spending it now on redeveloping GP? 3. Are you comparing London, with a population in excess of 8m with Kirkby, a town with a population of 40,000 - as an argument for expanding our fan base? 4. What colour is the sky on your planet?
Jim,
Arsenal have moved around the corner.... the matchday experience in terms of locality and territorial identity has been preserved. I used to travel in to London form Reading for matches at Highbury, there were always plenty of arsenal fans on board the trains. The increased capacity has only allowed more to get in, that would have applied over the road at Highbury if it was expanded. Any increase in fanbase of recent years is more to do with the brand of footy they are now famous for, and the success they have had under Wenger (not so much since at the Emirates though). Also, London’s transport system can never be compared to what Kirkby’s tiny station and infrastructure can offer, but even the emirates struggles...... with lots of unfulfilled transport claims in their strategy..... who did theirs again? ;)
Arsenal have moved around the corner.... the matchday experience in terms of locality and territorial identity has been preserved. I used to travel in to London form Reading for matches at Highbury, there were always plenty of arsenal fans on board the trains. The increased capacity has only allowed more to get in, that would have applied over the road at Highbury if it was expanded. Any increase in fanbase of recent years is more to do with the brand of footy they are now famous for, and the success they have had under Wenger (not so much since at the Emirates though). Also, London’s transport system can never be compared to what Kirkby’s tiny station and infrastructure can offer, but even the emirates struggles...... with lots of unfulfilled transport claims in their strategy..... who did theirs again? ;)
Once again those with an anti-Kirkby viewpoint immediately make assumptions that have not been said and equally fail to even consider the actual points raised, preferring to restate things already said a million times. I did not and would never even dream of comparing stadiums, that was never one of my points; I said a new stadium with good views and facilities was vital.
Staying at Highbury with an increased capacity was again never alluded to and as far as I?m aware was never considered by Arsenal. As for the tourists ? where have they come from? Equally, what has the size of Kirkby got to do with anything I said?
Some of these replies merely reinforce the blinkered views we read on here. I agree that filing the new stadium has also to do with the brand of football, but is that not what we aspire to at Goodison, Kirkby or anywhere else?
I agree that transport is a key issue but it will be wherever we have a 55,000-seater stadium. Please read what I have said without preconceived views and blinkered interpretations.
Congratulations Jim,
You have started with a premise, and found an argument to support it.
Having read the various objections to Kirkby lodged by Sefton, Liverpool, Grosvenor etc, it appears to be exactly what DPP, the consultant working on behalf of Tesco did - started with the end result and worked backwards, even where the argument is flawed.
Arsenal had a huge waiting list for season tickets when they were at Highbury. They have had 10 years of top four success, to build upon their already rich history.
We can’t sell out more than 2 games a season, and even then, many of the home tickets are bought by Liverpool and Man U fans.
How on earth you can compare Arsenal’s development of The Emirates and the shambles of Kirkby is beyond comprehension.
You have started with a premise, and found an argument to support it.
Having read the various objections to Kirkby lodged by Sefton, Liverpool, Grosvenor etc, it appears to be exactly what DPP, the consultant working on behalf of Tesco did - started with the end result and worked backwards, even where the argument is flawed.
Arsenal had a huge waiting list for season tickets when they were at Highbury. They have had 10 years of top four success, to build upon their already rich history.
We can’t sell out more than 2 games a season, and even then, many of the home tickets are bought by Liverpool and Man U fans.
How on earth you can compare Arsenal’s development of The Emirates and the shambles of Kirkby is beyond comprehension.
Jim
There are so many inherent flaws in your argument I am not quite sure where to start?
There are so many inherent flaws in your argument I am not quite sure where to start?
1. Eh distance - Ashburton Grove is around the corner from Highbury...
2. Are you seriously comparing the transport infrastructure of North London to what is planned for Knowlsey? (Please Jim if you have not yet visited go and drive around Kirkby)
3. How is it impossible for non-City residents to visit Goodison? As far as I am aware many people from Wales, Ireland, London etc have been coming for years and continue to do so!
4. Liverpool fans - are you suggesting that most Reds live outside the City? ? I think this is a Red Herring many of us may choose to swallow but most Reds, like most Blues, are from the City.
5. You insult Evertonians who originate from the City when you infer (how I don?t know ? unless you are blessed with ESP) that they believe that unless you were born in Liverpool you can?t be an Evertonian
6. Your comments about the Everton being a local club for local people make Everton sound like the League of Gentlemen. Evertonians have always had players from far and wide and have always welcomed any supporters regardless of their origins
7. Jim, we have sold our passion and soul on the cheap ? for a poor solution that many Evertonians (wherever they are from) believe will damage the club for good.
We have been lied to and misled and the club is currently suing its own supporters for libel. You had better watch out Jim, you can?t wear a KEIOC tee shirt, can?t bring an anti-Kirkby banner, what next you can?t have a rant at Tony Hibbert!! .. ithout a libel writ.
People's Club... my arse!
I just don?t understand how you can make such a comparison. I know you state that you haven?t made a comparison but that is what it looks like to me. Anyway here?s my comparison:
1) Arsenal had a waiting list of 24,000 before moving to the Emirates ? they have still got a waiting list. We have a waiting list of zero.
2) Arsenal is surrounded by tube & railway stations. Kirkby is in the middle of nowhere with one station that can handle 4,000 people an hour & proposed 2 mile parking restrictions. Furthermore, I don?t live in the city & Walton isn?t a problem transport wise!
3) Their ground move is the equivalent of us moving into Stanley Park - very few would object - unlike the Kirkby farce, where a large number of our support is extremely unhappy.
4) Their stadium is superb ? ours will be 2nd rate on a Tesco car park (probably with priority for people shopping at Tescos).
You won?t attract new support by moving to somewhere which is pretty inaccessible, but will you will lose some of the existing support!
1) Arsenal had a waiting list of 24,000 before moving to the Emirates ? they have still got a waiting list. We have a waiting list of zero.
2) Arsenal is surrounded by tube & railway stations. Kirkby is in the middle of nowhere with one station that can handle 4,000 people an hour & proposed 2 mile parking restrictions. Furthermore, I don?t live in the city & Walton isn?t a problem transport wise!
3) Their ground move is the equivalent of us moving into Stanley Park - very few would object - unlike the Kirkby farce, where a large number of our support is extremely unhappy.
4) Their stadium is superb ? ours will be 2nd rate on a Tesco car park (probably with priority for people shopping at Tescos).
You won?t attract new support by moving to somewhere which is pretty inaccessible, but will you will lose some of the existing support!
Arsenal moved a few hundred yards and they never left London the city of thier birth.Why cant you grasp that fact?
Good measured non-confrontational article Jim. Unlike the small amount of ’web doomlords’ I have every confidence that our brand new 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) new ground just four miles away in a strong scouse heartland can only take us to ’broader lands and better days’ as a certain Sir Winston Churchill once said - how on earth can 50,000 non-obstructed royal blue seats with perfect sightlines and with great facilties for the average fan (as well as corporates - no tents!!) possibly be a bad thing? It simply cant be - and the way the world economy is at the moment the case ’for’ the move just gets more compelling by the day. Still one more match day for the ’thousands opposed’ to get their protest done..... ;)
Jim,
Your article is about increasing fanbase by virtue of relocation. I believe this is a total red herring. Any fanbase increase has come about due to success. LFC, Man Utd and now even Chelsea have all increased their fanbases substantially over the years without moving...... all due to success. Arsenal have also preserved their existing fanbase and their traditional matchday experience because they have literally only moved around the corner. Also, being in London, with its massive population as well as the many towns around it, there is a substantial floating vote for any successfull club...... There are next to no parallels with EFC’s situation with Kirkby. Kirkby is a small housing estate in London terms (even in Merseyside terms), there certainly isn’t millions or even thousands of latent blues in the immediate countryside beyond. and even if there was, where is the nearest real mainline station to Kirkby?
Your article is about increasing fanbase by virtue of relocation. I believe this is a total red herring. Any fanbase increase has come about due to success. LFC, Man Utd and now even Chelsea have all increased their fanbases substantially over the years without moving...... all due to success. Arsenal have also preserved their existing fanbase and their traditional matchday experience because they have literally only moved around the corner. Also, being in London, with its massive population as well as the many towns around it, there is a substantial floating vote for any successfull club...... There are next to no parallels with EFC’s situation with Kirkby. Kirkby is a small housing estate in London terms (even in Merseyside terms), there certainly isn’t millions or even thousands of latent blues in the immediate countryside beyond. and even if there was, where is the nearest real mainline station to Kirkby?
A Scouse only Everton?
Jesus Christ I would die happily if that ever happened. It has been my dream for years.
Jesus Christ I would die happily if that ever happened. It has been my dream for years.
Jim, you could meet fellow Blues on the cycle paths on the way to the match in Kirkby, well that's what Wyness is telling his chums an co that 1000 plus will travel to Kirkby on bikes, ha ha what a total tit head.
Arsenal moved half a mile away from Highbury, we are going to a dead-end town were we will sell our soul and history to the Tesco Corporation, while Wyness and luvvie Bill will be up the road with a fat wallet and will probably never set foot in the stadium themselves once they have sold us out .
If the Tesco dome was going to be as half-decent as the Emirates I would give it a second thought, but it's not and in the words of Terry Leahey, it's a mid-range stadium which is not what people voted for.
We have been lied to and bullied and the only thing i can think of is Robert Mugabe, the Zimbabwian dictator who is famous for vote rigging and taking away people's right to object ie suing his opponents and stopping the wearing of anti-Kirkby tee-shirts and flags etc. As Ed Fitzgerald said People's Club my arse.
Gerard Madden, it seems you are so pro-Kirkby... can you give us five good reasons why Kirkby will be financially benificial to Everton Football Club???
I was around by the new Kings Dock Arena today for the first time. It made me sick at how much of a missed opportunty that was. Done me head in.
I can seewhere you are coming from Jim, but In think you are misinformed.
Having lived in the South East my entire life I can definitely tell you that there have been Arsenal fans all over it for decades - I remember having to hotfoot it across Chatham railway station the day we beat them 6-1 in 1985 when a group of them returning from Goodison on the same train as me realised who I supported!
I have noticed an increase in the last 10 years, but it’s got nothing to do with stadia and more seats, it’s just the success of the Team under Wenger.
Also, you came in 15 or 20 miles from that footballing hotbed of Hertfordshire where there are no local teams of note bar Watford and they all support Spurs or Arsenal. Go 15 or 20 miles out of Liverpool and you’re in Wigan, Tranmere, Mancs, Rugby League country. There’s plenty of competition for anybody not sure who to follow.
The best solution to all this is a Shared stadium, followed by rebuilding Goodison, with Kirkby a very distant third. And that’s from a financial - in the long run - persective. Kirkby is a short term fix, long term cock up.
Having lived in the South East my entire life I can definitely tell you that there have been Arsenal fans all over it for decades - I remember having to hotfoot it across Chatham railway station the day we beat them 6-1 in 1985 when a group of them returning from Goodison on the same train as me realised who I supported!
I have noticed an increase in the last 10 years, but it’s got nothing to do with stadia and more seats, it’s just the success of the Team under Wenger.
Also, you came in 15 or 20 miles from that footballing hotbed of Hertfordshire where there are no local teams of note bar Watford and they all support Spurs or Arsenal. Go 15 or 20 miles out of Liverpool and you’re in Wigan, Tranmere, Mancs, Rugby League country. There’s plenty of competition for anybody not sure who to follow.
The best solution to all this is a Shared stadium, followed by rebuilding Goodison, with Kirkby a very distant third. And that’s from a financial - in the long run - persective. Kirkby is a short term fix, long term cock up.
tom hughes you are a tit
Re Gerard Madden post - I am normally quite good at spotting the spoof posts but on his I have a horrible feeling that he believes what he has posted and it frightened the life out of me.
All that guff about Churchill and the world economy trying to sound worldy and intelligent - well sorry Gerrard to have to tell you that it failed. Your conclusion that Kirkby cannot be a bad thing because it has good sight lines is simply the worst reason I have heard yet for moving (and I have heard some whoppers).
All that guff about Churchill and the world economy trying to sound worldy and intelligent - well sorry Gerrard to have to tell you that it failed. Your conclusion that Kirkby cannot be a bad thing because it has good sight lines is simply the worst reason I have heard yet for moving (and I have heard some whoppers).
When you have looked at all the pros and cons in a sensible way there is only one possible conclusion - there are very few new fans to be had in Kirkby, there is no realistic transport plan other cycle or walk two miles ot the ground, there are very few hostelries in the area and put simply it will not be a pleasant matchday experience for thousands if not tens of thousands and once the curiosty value of a new stadium has worn off then gates and revenue will plummet.
People talk about agent Johnson - this will kill Everton as a top league club - kill us stone dead.
I’m sorry, was somebody here going on about the Kings Dock? And talking about transport at the same time?
What a joke. The Kings Dock, whilst being an awesome stadium, would have been a nightmare to get to and from. Have you been to the new Arena? Try leaving that easily. And that is with 10,000, max.
I can’t be bothered with anything else spouted above, but I just had to make that point.
What a joke. The Kings Dock, whilst being an awesome stadium, would have been a nightmare to get to and from. Have you been to the new Arena? Try leaving that easily. And that is with 10,000, max.
I can’t be bothered with anything else spouted above, but I just had to make that point.
Gerrard Madden
I always thought you were on drugs or something to puddle your brain.
Winston Churchill would fit well into the plan for Kirkby because he?s been six foot under for a long time and could well mirror what will happen to EFC if we go there although thankfully that is starting to look unlikely with all the local councils objecting to the scheme.
Jim you started the comparison with the emirates when there is no similarity whatsoever.
The Emirates is the only decent sized quality new stadium built in recent years.
Every other new build is tiny and/or poor quality or location so I understand why you chose it but as many have already said said there is nothing to compare with KIrkby Tescodome.
I always thought you were on drugs or something to puddle your brain.
Winston Churchill would fit well into the plan for Kirkby because he?s been six foot under for a long time and could well mirror what will happen to EFC if we go there although thankfully that is starting to look unlikely with all the local councils objecting to the scheme.
Jim you started the comparison with the emirates when there is no similarity whatsoever.
The Emirates is the only decent sized quality new stadium built in recent years.
Every other new build is tiny and/or poor quality or location so I understand why you chose it but as many have already said said there is nothing to compare with KIrkby Tescodome.
Tommy,
You should perhaps judge the arena when the big dig is over. Some people feel that they should be able to park on top of the place, and still get away in minutes despite the fact that the nearest road is as dislocated as it can be. Most people I know who have attended have been able to get to and from with ease. Bus and train stations over the road, and you can get to any part of merseyside from them.
You should perhaps judge the arena when the big dig is over. Some people feel that they should be able to park on top of the place, and still get away in minutes despite the fact that the nearest road is as dislocated as it can be. Most people I know who have attended have been able to get to and from with ease. Bus and train stations over the road, and you can get to any part of merseyside from them.
Isn’t it amazing that when you have a different viewpoint its flawed, not that you see things differently and rationalise them to come to a different conclusion, but that your flawed in your thinking - how I wish that we all had that level of certainty and truth.
Brian, I did not realise that Arsenal had that many people on their waiting list, I have read it nowhere else and am staggered at the number. Clearly that might explain part of the reason why they easily fill with 60K+. Equally Karl I accept the point about the areas I refer to as possibly being a hotbed of support, perhaps much like North Wales for us or dare I suggest Skelmersdale and Wigan. However I still think my point about providing a modern stadium with good views and decent facilities plays a significant part in the ability to fill it. I acknowledge that a successful team is also key but as I have said is that not what we aspire to and should plan for?. I would also question how many of those fans traveling in from Herfordshire, would have stopped supporting Arsenal if they had moved 3 miles to say Alexandra Palace, and if some did stop would they not have been replaced from their own hotbeds?
The whole point of my article is about the fan base and a decent stadium to watch Premiership football and the ability for the modern fan to get their reasonably easily. No stadium has perfect transport facilities, as I walked back on Sunday I passed a queue of over 100 yards waiting to get in to the tube station, and that was before the vast majority of Arsenal fans had even left. No stadium will offer the perfect solution wherever its built, but I genuinely believe that we have a fantastic fan base that is untapped. Watching Everton at GP is not easy, I bought 2 tickets for my 2 cousins for the Villa match. Asked after the game what they thought the reply was "Great atmosphere, but we couldn’t see one of the goals because of a pillar" and these were not restricted views. Will they come again? well they might was the answer if they could see the pitch properly. Like it or not the modern supporter wants more than we offer and as I see it the no voters are actually offering nothing other than rhetoric and arguments not to do this or that. Its always easy to be destructive, much like Moyes and his tactics.
Brian, I did not realise that Arsenal had that many people on their waiting list, I have read it nowhere else and am staggered at the number. Clearly that might explain part of the reason why they easily fill with 60K+. Equally Karl I accept the point about the areas I refer to as possibly being a hotbed of support, perhaps much like North Wales for us or dare I suggest Skelmersdale and Wigan. However I still think my point about providing a modern stadium with good views and decent facilities plays a significant part in the ability to fill it. I acknowledge that a successful team is also key but as I have said is that not what we aspire to and should plan for?. I would also question how many of those fans traveling in from Herfordshire, would have stopped supporting Arsenal if they had moved 3 miles to say Alexandra Palace, and if some did stop would they not have been replaced from their own hotbeds?
The whole point of my article is about the fan base and a decent stadium to watch Premiership football and the ability for the modern fan to get their reasonably easily. No stadium has perfect transport facilities, as I walked back on Sunday I passed a queue of over 100 yards waiting to get in to the tube station, and that was before the vast majority of Arsenal fans had even left. No stadium will offer the perfect solution wherever its built, but I genuinely believe that we have a fantastic fan base that is untapped. Watching Everton at GP is not easy, I bought 2 tickets for my 2 cousins for the Villa match. Asked after the game what they thought the reply was "Great atmosphere, but we couldn’t see one of the goals because of a pillar" and these were not restricted views. Will they come again? well they might was the answer if they could see the pitch properly. Like it or not the modern supporter wants more than we offer and as I see it the no voters are actually offering nothing other than rhetoric and arguments not to do this or that. Its always easy to be destructive, much like Moyes and his tactics.
Jim
There is no hidden pool of supporters in Skem or Wigan you allude to. Those who can afford to, go from Skem as they always have done. By your logic those of us who have who were moved out of our City with no choice should decamp to watch Wigan, cheaper tickets, good views all round. Why don’t we because we identify with our club. You dismiss years of loyalty too lightly Jim, it is these supporters who ARE the club before the permiership, before the sky money. If you alienate these supporters and the club is doing! something will be lost that is key to the stability to the club. The capcity of our pie eating friends to watch any more sport is limited. They have always followed the big four north west clubs as well as following Rugby League. The fan base for football is growing in the town fro their own club, quite rightly!
Of course we all want a better ground, we just want it in the City where we belong. Its no more complicated than that. Is that anti-progress, I dont think so?
Jim if success was all we craved we would simply follow the franchise football of the top four. The destructive attitude is from the club suing its own fans for having the temerity to disagree and ask for public debate. Don’t you want to know the details of the exclusivity agreement? I do. Do you trust this board? I take no issue with peoples right to support Destination Kirkby, I do take issue with being kept in the dark and fed bullshit and being told not to ask questions
There is no hidden pool of supporters in Skem or Wigan you allude to. Those who can afford to, go from Skem as they always have done. By your logic those of us who have who were moved out of our City with no choice should decamp to watch Wigan, cheaper tickets, good views all round. Why don’t we because we identify with our club. You dismiss years of loyalty too lightly Jim, it is these supporters who ARE the club before the permiership, before the sky money. If you alienate these supporters and the club is doing! something will be lost that is key to the stability to the club. The capcity of our pie eating friends to watch any more sport is limited. They have always followed the big four north west clubs as well as following Rugby League. The fan base for football is growing in the town fro their own club, quite rightly!
Of course we all want a better ground, we just want it in the City where we belong. Its no more complicated than that. Is that anti-progress, I dont think so?
Jim if success was all we craved we would simply follow the franchise football of the top four. The destructive attitude is from the club suing its own fans for having the temerity to disagree and ask for public debate. Don’t you want to know the details of the exclusivity agreement? I do. Do you trust this board? I take no issue with peoples right to support Destination Kirkby, I do take issue with being kept in the dark and fed bullshit and being told not to ask questions
It’s a fact that Goodison has little in the way of organized parking and getting away from the ground is far from perfect.
The new Arsenal Stadium, in my opinion, is even worse.
Forget the tube - when I went last year, the queue could have been the queue to see Ashley Cole getting a kicking (ie: fuucking long!)
Also -like Goodison - you have to walk WELL away from the ground to your car (or any bus that isn’t going to be chocker).
However both these situations are/will be better than Kirkby for the simple reason that both Goodison and New Arsenal can be approached from (theoretically) hundreds of different routes.
95% of those approaching Kirkby will be arriving from the same direction.
I went to Bolton last year and that gave me a good idea what the Kirkby match-day experience will be like.
One railway, one road, leading to a two-bob Barrs ground, surrounded by dead-big shops.
Oh and a harvester!
For those with a romantic view of how and where football should be watched - horrible, horrible, horrible.
For those with colder, rational, more ’realistic’ point of view, Kirkby might make sense now, but my guess is it won’t after spending a few Saturday evenings on a railway platform in the pissing rain.
I think if we move, we’ll lose a very small bit of support to begin with....but a LOT more within six months.
The new Arsenal Stadium, in my opinion, is even worse.
Forget the tube - when I went last year, the queue could have been the queue to see Ashley Cole getting a kicking (ie: fuucking long!)
Also -like Goodison - you have to walk WELL away from the ground to your car (or any bus that isn’t going to be chocker).
However both these situations are/will be better than Kirkby for the simple reason that both Goodison and New Arsenal can be approached from (theoretically) hundreds of different routes.
95% of those approaching Kirkby will be arriving from the same direction.
I went to Bolton last year and that gave me a good idea what the Kirkby match-day experience will be like.
One railway, one road, leading to a two-bob Barrs ground, surrounded by dead-big shops.
Oh and a harvester!
For those with a romantic view of how and where football should be watched - horrible, horrible, horrible.
For those with colder, rational, more ’realistic’ point of view, Kirkby might make sense now, but my guess is it won’t after spending a few Saturday evenings on a railway platform in the pissing rain.
I think if we move, we’ll lose a very small bit of support to begin with....but a LOT more within six months.
Jim, sorry to hear you didnt know of Arsenal's waiting list, maybe you dont read any papers! And its still 8,000 now, as reported on sky last week. Gerard Madden, you really need help.
Jim, of course every ground has problems with the dispersal of support once the game finishes. The problem with Kirkby is that it?s a brand new stadium and there seems to be little thought given to how the spectators will get away once the game ends. You would think one of the major advantages of being so far from Liverpool centre would be the availability of car parking around the ground. Kirkby council, understandably, do not want Kirkby clogged up by thousands of cars, hence park & ride. This is just a joke from the fans point of view!
You won?t attract support to a stadium where you need to queue in the open air to get a bus back to a car park which no doubt will cost £5 to park. Our current average gate is around the 36,000 mark (90% capacity). I suspect that we need around 47,000 (94%) and all the corporate boxes etc to be taken up, to meet the Wyness statement of giving DM an extra £10m ? of course that was the when the stadium was supposed to cost virtually nothing!
I admit I haven?t got all the answers, but moving to Kirkby IMHO will be a financial disaster. Anyone with half-a-brain can see that we currently have huge financial problems, but getting into more debt by going to Kirkby is not the answer.
In conclusion people will not go to a stadium unless it is convenient ? the fans that put themselves out are already going to the match and we risk losing a fair number these. The other potential fans will go to Kirkby once, will be put off by the hassle of getting back to their cars and will not bother again ? especially for night matches.
You won?t attract support to a stadium where you need to queue in the open air to get a bus back to a car park which no doubt will cost £5 to park. Our current average gate is around the 36,000 mark (90% capacity). I suspect that we need around 47,000 (94%) and all the corporate boxes etc to be taken up, to meet the Wyness statement of giving DM an extra £10m ? of course that was the when the stadium was supposed to cost virtually nothing!
I admit I haven?t got all the answers, but moving to Kirkby IMHO will be a financial disaster. Anyone with half-a-brain can see that we currently have huge financial problems, but getting into more debt by going to Kirkby is not the answer.
In conclusion people will not go to a stadium unless it is convenient ? the fans that put themselves out are already going to the match and we risk losing a fair number these. The other potential fans will go to Kirkby once, will be put off by the hassle of getting back to their cars and will not bother again ? especially for night matches.
I stopped reading once I realised the article failed to take into account Arsenal’s season ticket waiting list prior to the move. If the writer fails to do this, the article becomes a complete irrelevance.
I must correct the poster who says that they still have 8,000 on the list. They issue a certificate to everyone who joins the list and sky showed one numbering over 45,000 early in the season.
Madden - you demonstrate perfectly the alarming state of the care in the community scheme.
I must correct the poster who says that they still have 8,000 on the list. They issue a certificate to everyone who joins the list and sky showed one numbering over 45,000 early in the season.
Madden - you demonstrate perfectly the alarming state of the care in the community scheme.
Jim, Everton do actually have plenty of support outside of Liverpool. I travel from Ireland for most home games and John Lennon Airport is always full of blues heading home after each match. I'm sure if we are travelling from Ireland, we are travelling from surrounding areas also.
But as most posters have already said ? the best way to increase support is to have a successful team.
But as most posters have already said ? the best way to increase support is to have a successful team.
Just wondering if a shiny new stadium (in Kirkby) associated with a large shopping complex would be likely to draw a broader demographic to Everton games. Specifically, I mean women, families and maybe (how do I put this) a new style of supporter. The "traditional" supporter may not be too bothered but in the brave new world that we live in, many people want comfort and good facilities. They also want to go to the game as part of a day out etc.
If we can attract these additional supporters along with the traditional ones then we could increase our fan base.
If we can attract these additional supporters along with the traditional ones then we could increase our fan base.
Ciaran,
It’s a nice idea, but would you really want to exchange fans who have been going through good times and bad times for people who might like a day out shopping?
I can imagine my missus queuing for up to an hour for a bus back to the car park - it wouldn’t happen twice!
The fact is that Kirkby will see off a considerable number of the existing fans - even the club admit that - and with each passing day, they piss off even more.
I love this club, but detest the people who run it. They make my blood boil. If Kirkby was to happen (and I’m growing pretty convinced it won’t) I would not renew my season ticket. I can’t say I wouldn’t go at all, but I would want to see what it entailed, transport wise etc. I guess it’s the same for many long time fans. You simply can’t expect to replace them with shoppers - what happens for night matches when the shops are shut?
It’s a nice idea, but would you really want to exchange fans who have been going through good times and bad times for people who might like a day out shopping?
I can imagine my missus queuing for up to an hour for a bus back to the car park - it wouldn’t happen twice!
The fact is that Kirkby will see off a considerable number of the existing fans - even the club admit that - and with each passing day, they piss off even more.
I love this club, but detest the people who run it. They make my blood boil. If Kirkby was to happen (and I’m growing pretty convinced it won’t) I would not renew my season ticket. I can’t say I wouldn’t go at all, but I would want to see what it entailed, transport wise etc. I guess it’s the same for many long time fans. You simply can’t expect to replace them with shoppers - what happens for night matches when the shops are shut?
Everton currently limit season ticket sales to 28,000 every season and most seasons get a 100% take-up for those tickets. Renewal policy is based on a first come basis before each season, with typically a waiting list of around 4,000 every year for people wishing to take up season tickets when current holders do not renew, or are late renewing. Usaully after all season tickets are sold-out the club will recieve about 6000 further enquiries for season tickets.
Of the remaining 12,000 seats, 5,000 go to the away side, 1500 go to executives and the remaining 5000 or so go on general sale, as most of those remaining tickets will have poor obstructed veiws.
Most of the unsold tickets are, away tickets or those with worst views, which typically number about 3,000-4,000 on average per game.
From season ticket sales alone, in a bigger capacity ground we should increase attendenaces on average by about 5,000 to 6,000 based on current demand. Which should allow season ticket sales to rise to about 35,000. Add to that the same 12,000 spare tickets and average attendences should rise to above 45,000, assuming we don?t increase our fan base.
Of the remaining 12,000 seats, 5,000 go to the away side, 1500 go to executives and the remaining 5000 or so go on general sale, as most of those remaining tickets will have poor obstructed veiws.
Most of the unsold tickets are, away tickets or those with worst views, which typically number about 3,000-4,000 on average per game.
From season ticket sales alone, in a bigger capacity ground we should increase attendenaces on average by about 5,000 to 6,000 based on current demand. Which should allow season ticket sales to rise to about 35,000. Add to that the same 12,000 spare tickets and average attendences should rise to above 45,000, assuming we don?t increase our fan base.
I cant honestly add anything what hasn’t already been said. But what I would like to add is that Ed Fitzgeralds REPLY article encompases my feelings totally.
Excellent post Ed.
Excellent post Ed.
Jim,
"Like it or not the modern supporter wants more than we offer and as I see it the no voters are actually offering nothing other than rhetoric and arguments not to do this or that. Its always easy to be destructive, much like Moyes and his tactics."
The point is, there is no reason whatsover why these aspirations can’t be achieved in full at GP, the real epi-centre of the existing and real fanbase, both logistically and historically. (£60-80m would address these issues, re-roofing alone would reduce obstructions massively). Attempt to be speculative by all means, but don’t sell it as supporting evidence and not expect people to counter if they see weakness in the arguments. As far as no-voters not putting a solution on a plate for the club (How could they, and why should they?), or providing more than rhetoric (I’m not sure what your definition is, but I’d take a much closer look at the pro-kirkby inputs first, especially since the real rhetoric of the vote statements have long since collapsed) ..... Personally, I did a full spacial study to show what can be achieved at a redeveloped GP using full site plans and a sightline modeller etc, and I can assure the scale drawings are true representations which required a bit more effort, information and experience than that of writing a few lines on a forum. This alone would appear to be significantly more than the club managed.
"Like it or not the modern supporter wants more than we offer and as I see it the no voters are actually offering nothing other than rhetoric and arguments not to do this or that. Its always easy to be destructive, much like Moyes and his tactics."
The point is, there is no reason whatsover why these aspirations can’t be achieved in full at GP, the real epi-centre of the existing and real fanbase, both logistically and historically. (£60-80m would address these issues, re-roofing alone would reduce obstructions massively). Attempt to be speculative by all means, but don’t sell it as supporting evidence and not expect people to counter if they see weakness in the arguments. As far as no-voters not putting a solution on a plate for the club (How could they, and why should they?), or providing more than rhetoric (I’m not sure what your definition is, but I’d take a much closer look at the pro-kirkby inputs first, especially since the real rhetoric of the vote statements have long since collapsed) ..... Personally, I did a full spacial study to show what can be achieved at a redeveloped GP using full site plans and a sightline modeller etc, and I can assure the scale drawings are true representations which required a bit more effort, information and experience than that of writing a few lines on a forum. This alone would appear to be significantly more than the club managed.
Claran, you?re in a dream world. People are going to go shopping and presumably take all the goods into the match? Remember their car will be 2 miles away.
It will be precisely the opposite of what you are saying. Families won?t go because of the hassle of massive queues for the buses. When the weather is bad it?ll piss off even the hardened support. Leave Gerard to his own world and get back to reality.
It will be precisely the opposite of what you are saying. Families won?t go because of the hassle of massive queues for the buses. When the weather is bad it?ll piss off even the hardened support. Leave Gerard to his own world and get back to reality.
I have made a similar journey in the past to Highbury - there always seemed to be plenty of gooners on the train. Not sure how many other prem grounds I passed on the journey mind! Oh yes none!
Jim: The lack of parking is a huge problem. If you drive there you’re looking at adding probably two hours onto everything with the park and ride. I really don’t understand the logic of moving out of a city AND having no parking. To me there are two options: no parking but you’re in the city so there is an established public transportation system OR you’re outside the city but you have space for 15,000 parking spaces. The idea of being outside of the city AND not having any parking is insane. The idea this will attract "casual" fans to endure this nightmare travel scenario is really baffling.
I honestly, genuinely have NO issue with the fact that the stadium isn’t in the city. It’s the fact that the stadium itself is "medium quality," we’ll go into HUGE DEBT to pay for it (not just the estimate but the almost guaranteed cost overruns which we seem to be liable for), and there is no viable parking or transportation.
I’m not being emotional about the situation with it not being in the city. My arguments are purely rational. I haven’t heard you Jim, or more importantly EFC, adequately address those three issues.
I honestly, genuinely have NO issue with the fact that the stadium isn’t in the city. It’s the fact that the stadium itself is "medium quality," we’ll go into HUGE DEBT to pay for it (not just the estimate but the almost guaranteed cost overruns which we seem to be liable for), and there is no viable parking or transportation.
I’m not being emotional about the situation with it not being in the city. My arguments are purely rational. I haven’t heard you Jim, or more importantly EFC, adequately address those three issues.
Tom, I respect both your views and your consistently held ideas about the redevelopment of GP, but like I have said previously, my present and real experience with a small multi million pound project makes me extremely sceptical that anything like you suggest could be built at GP. Placing a new roof might indeed remove the pillars but that fails to address the more fundamental issues that the stands themselves are totally inadequate in terms of modern acceptable 21st Century spectator standards.
Equally my understanding is that under the proposed UEFA regulations the minimum sight lines (in terms of height) for following the football means that all but the first few rows of the Lower Bullens, and the back dozen rows of the Gwladys Street fail to meet the necessary minimum standards to compete in european competition. This means that both stands have to be rebuilt and here is where I fundamentally question whether planning permission will ever be given to close the streets down and rebuild. As we all know there is a school backing on to the Bullens Rd and under the present safeguarding of children legislation I can foresee enormous objections to turning the area into a massive building site. Whether we like it or not the safety and well being of children will always be put ahead of planning permission for a football ground. Additionally issues of access and H&S really concern me in your suggestions and whilst neither of us can predict how planning committees think, they do tend to err on the side of caution imposing additional restrictions and requirements that many might think from a common sense view are totally unnecessary.
Equally my understanding is that under the proposed UEFA regulations the minimum sight lines (in terms of height) for following the football means that all but the first few rows of the Lower Bullens, and the back dozen rows of the Gwladys Street fail to meet the necessary minimum standards to compete in european competition. This means that both stands have to be rebuilt and here is where I fundamentally question whether planning permission will ever be given to close the streets down and rebuild. As we all know there is a school backing on to the Bullens Rd and under the present safeguarding of children legislation I can foresee enormous objections to turning the area into a massive building site. Whether we like it or not the safety and well being of children will always be put ahead of planning permission for a football ground. Additionally issues of access and H&S really concern me in your suggestions and whilst neither of us can predict how planning committees think, they do tend to err on the side of caution imposing additional restrictions and requirements that many might think from a common sense view are totally unnecessary.
Brian Baker, EFC probably do limit their season tickets to 28,000, but the rest of your figures on season tickets are well out.
From the Liverpool echo 26/4/08
?and are on course to meet their target of having 25,000 season ticket holders for the start of the new campaign?.
The last couple of years at least we have been selling half-season tickets at Xmas, so I can?t believe they get a further 6,000 enquiries. Unless an enquiry consists of ?How much will it cost? Okay I won?t bother?.
You talk about season tickets rising to 35,000 at Kirkby, you are having a laugh. Season tickets sales will fall at Kirkby because anyone who wants a season ticket can already get one and a fair number of us just won?t renew.
From the Liverpool echo 26/4/08
?and are on course to meet their target of having 25,000 season ticket holders for the start of the new campaign?.
The last couple of years at least we have been selling half-season tickets at Xmas, so I can?t believe they get a further 6,000 enquiries. Unless an enquiry consists of ?How much will it cost? Okay I won?t bother?.
You talk about season tickets rising to 35,000 at Kirkby, you are having a laugh. Season tickets sales will fall at Kirkby because anyone who wants a season ticket can already get one and a fair number of us just won?t renew.
Jim
The school has been targeted by the LA’s school organisation plan as at threat of closure.
As for your comments about planning regulations our principal partner TESCO has a truly flagrant disregard for sticking to the rules leading to a string of fines they are more than happy to pay, to get what they want.
If I disagree with you I have to take a stance that considers your views as flawed in some way, to do otherwise would be a paradox. You need to examine your own original text and its assertions about what Evertonians think before being critical of others.
The school has been targeted by the LA’s school organisation plan as at threat of closure.
As for your comments about planning regulations our principal partner TESCO has a truly flagrant disregard for sticking to the rules leading to a string of fines they are more than happy to pay, to get what they want.
If I disagree with you I have to take a stance that considers your views as flawed in some way, to do otherwise would be a paradox. You need to examine your own original text and its assertions about what Evertonians think before being critical of others.
Just seen the Once in a lifetime opportunity DVD for the residents of Kirkby. It finishes by stating that the development will help people be proud of their town. That’s Kirkby Town not a district of Liverpool City. What sort of ambition does it show to move a business from a city enjoying the fruits of being European Capital of Culture to a run down town that’s desperate for a Tesco’s and a few other new cut-price national chain stores. Instead of a city club you might recommend Everton become a town club like other big clubs such as Luton Town or Huddersfield Town or Grimsby Town all clubs that can attract the top players from all over the world.
Arsenal had a season ticket waiting list of 25,000 we cant sell ours
Arsenal were hugely successful at the time of the move, we?ve won one trophy in 20 years
Arsenal moved next door, Kenwright is proposing a move away from the comunity we claim to represent and turn our back on the current fan base
There are no comparisons to be drawn here. The sooner this shambles of a proposal goes belly up - and it will - the better, then perhaps we can get back to discussing footy and the people who only ever post about it can go back to watching strictly come dancing
Arsenal were hugely successful at the time of the move, we?ve won one trophy in 20 years
Arsenal moved next door, Kenwright is proposing a move away from the comunity we claim to represent and turn our back on the current fan base
There are no comparisons to be drawn here. The sooner this shambles of a proposal goes belly up - and it will - the better, then perhaps we can get back to discussing footy and the people who only ever post about it can go back to watching strictly come dancing
How many people reading this site watched the blues up to there success in the mid-eighties? Before the game when we were in the pub there was a regular sweep as to how many people would be sitting on the ?E? in the Bullens Road stand. This is the first letter of Everton for those of you who arrive late these days. It was only once or twice a year that it was covered. My point is, it will only take a year or two of Kirkby before this will become the norm again.
With the massive debt facing the club we will be in a more precarios position than we are now. FFS when will the club and some fans wake up. There heve been plenty of well researched articles on this site regarding alternatves to Kirkby not to mention the ones the club have dismissed and lied to us.
The deal ef exclusiivity or the signing of documents from Kenwright we do not know about is the true barrier now. The custodians have stitched this club up to a point of no return. Only external influences can stop it now. Seeing Tesco have never lost a planning appeal, we are on thin ground. We can only wait and see if other authorities' appeals can stop it.
One last shed of light is Tesco have always said they would go it alone if there are too many stumbling blocks. We need to find where the blocks exist and follow them up with as much noise as we can raise. Our future depends on it.
I cant believe that anyone thinks that moving to Kirkby will in any way bolster our fan base! The idea is a farce! The good people of Kirkby either support us or the RS. The RS contingent wont have second thoughts and start following us! Where are these extra fans going to come from? Why are they going to come? Certainly not for the ?NO FRILLS STADIUM?.
What is certain is that some existing fans will no longer attend home games. I?ve no idea how many, but certainly some wont go whether you agree with their actions or not. That means that our fan base will decrease. People don't go to the match for ?the facilities?!
What is certain is that some existing fans will no longer attend home games. I?ve no idea how many, but certainly some wont go whether you agree with their actions or not. That means that our fan base will decrease. People don't go to the match for ?the facilities?!
Hi Jim,
I am born and bred in Australia and have supported Everton for my whole life, I recently travelled over 20+ hrs (including 2hr stopover in Abu Dhabi) to watch us play v Chelsea, it is total crap that people from outside only support Liverpool! Are you saying I am not entitled to support Everton as people like me would lose the "soul" or "passion". That is bullshit!
I am born and bred in Australia and have supported Everton for my whole life, I recently travelled over 20+ hrs (including 2hr stopover in Abu Dhabi) to watch us play v Chelsea, it is total crap that people from outside only support Liverpool! Are you saying I am not entitled to support Everton as people like me would lose the "soul" or "passion". That is bullshit!
As for our fan base, I couldn?t give a rats arse where our fan base came from as long as they were passionate about Everton football club.
Having been to the UK for the first time though and witnessing just how close EFC and LFC are, and the banter between the two, it would be an awful shame to move.
Cheers
PS: Sorry if i have misread your article, that's just how it came across.
Jim,
" Placing a new roof might indeed remove the pillars but that fails to address the more fundamental issues that the stands themselves are totally inadequate in terms of modern acceptable 21st Century spectator standards."
Working on the same principles the vast majority of most stadia in this country would be considered in some ways "inadequate". Locally.... Old trafford, and anfield for instance are both almost completely non-compliant to the latest seating and tread depth standards. Also, given the wooden treads and risers used in both Leitch upper stands there is scope to refit with suitable modern materials to completely new standards, perhaps losing a row in each stand to accommodate the increased tread depths. By building a tier behind the existing Bullens, this will also open up considerably greater "back of house" potential with concourse/circulation areas increased severalfold on this side.
"Equally my understanding is that under the proposed UEFA regulations the minimum sight lines (in terms of height) for following the football means that all but the first few rows of the Lower Bullens, and the back dozen rows of the Gwladys Street fail to meet the necessary minimum standards to compete in european competition."
I’m not aware of any legislation that affects any existing stand in this way, so I wouldn’t mind a reference for that one. I have done a full sightline study for the existing stands, there are issues with C-values, and of course obstructions in the lower tiers. In terms of the lower Gwladys Street, a small pitch move, if I remember rightly even only a 2 metre move away from this end would make both upper and lower fully compliant (ie min. C-value>60mm). A scheme has been drawn up were the rearmost rows (2-4 rows lower st end, 7 rows lower Bullens) of both these lower stands is despensed with to bring all within the recommended vertical viewing range for new structures, which I think is what you may be alluding to. The scheme includes the complete reprofiling of the lower Bullens into one complete paddock only going back as far as the second row of columns under this stand. The loss in capacity at the back of this lower tier would be partially compensated for by filling the existing pathway at the rear of the paddock with 3 new completely unobstructed rows.
"As we all know there is a school backing on to the Bullens Rd and under the present safeguarding of children legislation I can foresee enormous objections to turning the area into a massive building site."
The future of the school is also an issue. Is the club going to be excessively penalised for a school who’s future is not guaranteed? There has also been a president set by the planning permission granted to LFC, our infringements will not be anything like as intrusive, with the building line of the new tier barely covering the external wall of the school yard (and that’s just one potential scheme). I agree safety is paramount but there are plenty of similar projects taking place everywhere. For instance Morrisons built a whole new shopping complex right next to Parklands school in Speke. Tower blocks off fontenoy street are being redeveloped right next to Holy Cross/St Mary’s school...... just 2 examples off the top of my head. Of course there are Planning and HS issues, but nothing that would bar exploring these possibilities fully especially when the issues surrounding the whole Kirkby project appear glaring and yet are simply swept under the carpet.
" Placing a new roof might indeed remove the pillars but that fails to address the more fundamental issues that the stands themselves are totally inadequate in terms of modern acceptable 21st Century spectator standards."
Working on the same principles the vast majority of most stadia in this country would be considered in some ways "inadequate". Locally.... Old trafford, and anfield for instance are both almost completely non-compliant to the latest seating and tread depth standards. Also, given the wooden treads and risers used in both Leitch upper stands there is scope to refit with suitable modern materials to completely new standards, perhaps losing a row in each stand to accommodate the increased tread depths. By building a tier behind the existing Bullens, this will also open up considerably greater "back of house" potential with concourse/circulation areas increased severalfold on this side.
"Equally my understanding is that under the proposed UEFA regulations the minimum sight lines (in terms of height) for following the football means that all but the first few rows of the Lower Bullens, and the back dozen rows of the Gwladys Street fail to meet the necessary minimum standards to compete in european competition."
I’m not aware of any legislation that affects any existing stand in this way, so I wouldn’t mind a reference for that one. I have done a full sightline study for the existing stands, there are issues with C-values, and of course obstructions in the lower tiers. In terms of the lower Gwladys Street, a small pitch move, if I remember rightly even only a 2 metre move away from this end would make both upper and lower fully compliant (ie min. C-value>60mm). A scheme has been drawn up were the rearmost rows (2-4 rows lower st end, 7 rows lower Bullens) of both these lower stands is despensed with to bring all within the recommended vertical viewing range for new structures, which I think is what you may be alluding to. The scheme includes the complete reprofiling of the lower Bullens into one complete paddock only going back as far as the second row of columns under this stand. The loss in capacity at the back of this lower tier would be partially compensated for by filling the existing pathway at the rear of the paddock with 3 new completely unobstructed rows.
"As we all know there is a school backing on to the Bullens Rd and under the present safeguarding of children legislation I can foresee enormous objections to turning the area into a massive building site."
The future of the school is also an issue. Is the club going to be excessively penalised for a school who’s future is not guaranteed? There has also been a president set by the planning permission granted to LFC, our infringements will not be anything like as intrusive, with the building line of the new tier barely covering the external wall of the school yard (and that’s just one potential scheme). I agree safety is paramount but there are plenty of similar projects taking place everywhere. For instance Morrisons built a whole new shopping complex right next to Parklands school in Speke. Tower blocks off fontenoy street are being redeveloped right next to Holy Cross/St Mary’s school...... just 2 examples off the top of my head. Of course there are Planning and HS issues, but nothing that would bar exploring these possibilities fully especially when the issues surrounding the whole Kirkby project appear glaring and yet are simply swept under the carpet.
Expanding the fan base might be a useful thing to do. The problem is that Kirby is really just an artificial boundary away from Goodison. It really is no distance and would not stop anybody going to the game or I think tempt more people from outside of the city. I don?t think the City boundary is important.
There may be other issues that are important but would there be an issue if the ground was in Huyton? I don?t think so.
Liverpool as a City is light years behind Manchester because it has been so inward looking and it is only now starting to catch up. Make your arguments about anything concerning the ground but not the Kirby location, that argument is so weak it deflects from any serious considerations.
There may be other issues that are important but would there be an issue if the ground was in Huyton? I don?t think so.
Liverpool as a City is light years behind Manchester because it has been so inward looking and it is only now starting to catch up. Make your arguments about anything concerning the ground but not the Kirby location, that argument is so weak it deflects from any serious considerations.
Rob,
Location is very important, as is identity which is also very location specific with regard to football tribalism. Your Manchester analogy is also full of holes but as regards stadia it should perhaps be noted that both grounds in that city are within walking distance of the city-centre, particularly Eastlands. Man U, Liverpool and chelsea have all increased their fanbases on the back of success and not relocation. Huyton and even speke would be equally undesirable to me as is Kirkby..... anyone who has tried to get to the retail park in Speke recently will know the type of Gridlock already there (I live just a walk away and wouldn’t want it there). It isn’t by accident that only central sites can boast the type of infrastructure required for mass people movement..... that is the way the city has evolved. To think we can just drop a stadium anywhere and it will become the transport focus of the region makes no sense. Conversely, perhaps moving to the Loop site with close access to all major transport network hubs and amenities might encourage more of our existing fanbase to want to attend. EVERYONE in merseyside can get to Liverpool city centre via 1 bus/train/ferry journey. Most districts of Liverpool and NO Wirral areas have a direct service of any kind to Kirkby.(over 1/3rd of our season ticket holders come from the wirral). The proposal is a ludicrous as suggesting the city-centre relocates to the periphery.
Location is very important, as is identity which is also very location specific with regard to football tribalism. Your Manchester analogy is also full of holes but as regards stadia it should perhaps be noted that both grounds in that city are within walking distance of the city-centre, particularly Eastlands. Man U, Liverpool and chelsea have all increased their fanbases on the back of success and not relocation. Huyton and even speke would be equally undesirable to me as is Kirkby..... anyone who has tried to get to the retail park in Speke recently will know the type of Gridlock already there (I live just a walk away and wouldn’t want it there). It isn’t by accident that only central sites can boast the type of infrastructure required for mass people movement..... that is the way the city has evolved. To think we can just drop a stadium anywhere and it will become the transport focus of the region makes no sense. Conversely, perhaps moving to the Loop site with close access to all major transport network hubs and amenities might encourage more of our existing fanbase to want to attend. EVERYONE in merseyside can get to Liverpool city centre via 1 bus/train/ferry journey. Most districts of Liverpool and NO Wirral areas have a direct service of any kind to Kirkby.(over 1/3rd of our season ticket holders come from the wirral). The proposal is a ludicrous as suggesting the city-centre relocates to the periphery.
I live in London and went to the Arsenal game, which I could only get a ticket for by borrowing an Arsenal season ticket from a mate. Other people have already commented about the locality, but I will say that London & Southeast is not the same as provincial England and can very easily provide the turnstile, and more importantly, corporate revenue required by the likes of Arsenal/Chelsea and soon-to-be Spurs. In the North-West the football-going public is already saturated with a choice of Premiership teams (7 next year with stoke) and have probably already made their minds up or don?t go at all. Hence we don?t have an enormous waiting list for season tickets.
Sitting with the Arsenal fans gave me a good perspective on the type of people they attract. It was clear from the people sitting near me that a large proportion of the fans are of the "franchised" sort who don?t really "get" football and would disappear if there was ever a lean spell. You could tell they were all about instant gratification as they berated Bendtner, their best player on Sunday, constantly until he scored a superb winner. They also were all complaining that it was a boring game, presumably because they didn?t win 5-0. It wasn?t even a boring game, it was an interesting tactical footy match, decided by one moment of class. The same ignorance of the nuances of the game was evident when I went to Old Trafford. Yes there are 40,000 "proper" fans, but the other 30k will take their money elsewhere if the silverware and Ronaldos disappear for a few seasons.
Sitting with the Arsenal fans gave me a good perspective on the type of people they attract. It was clear from the people sitting near me that a large proportion of the fans are of the "franchised" sort who don?t really "get" football and would disappear if there was ever a lean spell. You could tell they were all about instant gratification as they berated Bendtner, their best player on Sunday, constantly until he scored a superb winner. They also were all complaining that it was a boring game, presumably because they didn?t win 5-0. It wasn?t even a boring game, it was an interesting tactical footy match, decided by one moment of class. The same ignorance of the nuances of the game was evident when I went to Old Trafford. Yes there are 40,000 "proper" fans, but the other 30k will take their money elsewhere if the silverware and Ronaldos disappear for a few seasons.
Where are the flag-waving, replica-shirt buying, instant gratification-seeking, glory hunting, football-ignorant extra 20000 Evertonians going to come from? And are they going to come in their droves commiting a financial fortune and 19 Saturdays a year just because we built a new stadium in Kirkby in which to they can watch (unobstructed) Everton battle for 5th-8th place? We don?t have the global appeal of the RS or Manyoo, and we aren?t located in a capital city with a gigantic catchment area on the doorstep of a global financial centre and the transport to support it. The board are deluded if they think the way to "market" the club and "increase revenues" is to abandon the club?s rich heritage and sell-out to Tesco. Yes we want to compete but this is looking increasingly like a Leeds Utd suicide attempt.
The premise overlooks one important fact. Arsenal moved 400 yeards away from Highbury to a first class, albeit very expensive stadium. I wonder if the same effect would be achieved if they were doing what Everton is doing, eliminating their ties to the city and moving to a second rate stadium in a small economically blighted suburban town several miles away. Er, let me think about that one....
Please all non blinkered supporters sign the petition:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/evertoncallin/
Tom mate, I admire your resolve, but everyday I come on this site and read you banging your head against more Kirkby heads. Then every other day I read posts asking what the Kirkby alternatives are. It could drive a man to drink! Time for talk is passing, we seriously need to act in protest before it is too late. BK and Bully will ride in the jet stream of the Tesco Juggurnaut unless it is stopped by other means. Rational argument just doesnt seem to work with these people!
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/evertoncallin/
Tom mate, I admire your resolve, but everyday I come on this site and read you banging your head against more Kirkby heads. Then every other day I read posts asking what the Kirkby alternatives are. It could drive a man to drink! Time for talk is passing, we seriously need to act in protest before it is too late. BK and Bully will ride in the jet stream of the Tesco Juggurnaut unless it is stopped by other means. Rational argument just doesnt seem to work with these people!
Oh No not more about Kirkby....................................................................................................boring move on.........................
Ed - Can I just pick you up on this point?
4. Liverpool fans - are you suggesting that most Reds live outside the City? ? I think this is a Red Herring many of us may choose to swallow but most Reds, like most Blues, are from the City.
I have lived in Birmingham, London and now live in Portsmouth. In my 25 years I have met but a handful of other Evertonains however 100?s perhaps 1000?s of Liverpool fans. This I would suggest indicates that yes, the majority of the RS fanbase comes from outside the city.
Another point mind would be the majority of those Everton supporters I have met had been and did travel to our matches. Of all the alleged Liverpool fans I know only one who goes to see them play (although most do buy the merchandise).
4. Liverpool fans - are you suggesting that most Reds live outside the City? ? I think this is a Red Herring many of us may choose to swallow but most Reds, like most Blues, are from the City.
I have lived in Birmingham, London and now live in Portsmouth. In my 25 years I have met but a handful of other Evertonains however 100?s perhaps 1000?s of Liverpool fans. This I would suggest indicates that yes, the majority of the RS fanbase comes from outside the city.
Another point mind would be the majority of those Everton supporters I have met had been and did travel to our matches. Of all the alleged Liverpool fans I know only one who goes to see them play (although most do buy the merchandise).
Tom
I used to live near the retail park and a ground there would not be possible now, it was in the early days before the airfield was developed. Manchester United play in Salford. There is an old school in Manchester that still claims Salford is not a part of the City.... artificial boundary.
Taking your point then what would be the problem in locating to the Wirral? More convenient for 1/3rd of our season ticket holders.
There may be many reasons for not going to Kirkby, but where it is can?t be highlighted as a genuine problem. It simply is not.
I used to live near the retail park and a ground there would not be possible now, it was in the early days before the airfield was developed. Manchester United play in Salford. There is an old school in Manchester that still claims Salford is not a part of the City.... artificial boundary.
Taking your point then what would be the problem in locating to the Wirral? More convenient for 1/3rd of our season ticket holders.
There may be many reasons for not going to Kirkby, but where it is can?t be highlighted as a genuine problem. It simply is not.
This article serves no relevance to kirkby. We are so amateurish because we don?t have a waiting list, the club invents one for those who want ?first option? in the summer. Arsenal however did and still do have a real waiting list for season ticket holders. Arsenal have a catchment area ridiculously larger than Evertons. We are comparable to a club like City - we?re not even the biggest club in our own town.
The stadium is the right size at 50k for us but its in the wrong place. With more matches available to watch on tv that ever who is going to want to ride a bike to kirkby? I might open a bike shop in the nice retail space Tesco build for me as theres going to be a real market to serve. I?ll be selling bikes, doing repairs and personalising bikes with Everton colours etc. I need a name and I?m sorted...
The stadium is the right size at 50k for us but its in the wrong place. With more matches available to watch on tv that ever who is going to want to ride a bike to kirkby? I might open a bike shop in the nice retail space Tesco build for me as theres going to be a real market to serve. I?ll be selling bikes, doing repairs and personalising bikes with Everton colours etc. I need a name and I?m sorted...
Andy
what about "Bully?s Bike shop" with a strap line of "watch rabbits come out of hats as you cycle through paradise for free".
what about "Bully?s Bike shop" with a strap line of "watch rabbits come out of hats as you cycle through paradise for free".
All the same No voters spouting off against everything Everton and not going if we move to Kirkby... You all obviously have to much time on your hands and must lead pretty boring lives if all you can do is ?rail? against the club you purport to love...
Fact is this club has been mismanaged for years and you all sat back and did nothing (myself included)... and now the custodians of our club are actually trying to drag the club out of the doldrums you slate it to high heaven!
I find it interesting that Tom Hughes doesn?t answer the question re the school/children and the objections from the people surrounding the ground... I find it even more interesting that after all his work he hasn?t found anybody to pay for the stadium redevelopment!
Any ground rebuild/move will have its pros and cons, but the indisputable fact is that the club want the move and is the only proposal which has been costed and funded to THEIR satisfaction.
Please don?t go on about exclusivity agreements, because if somebody had an idea that was ?super smashing marvellous? do you really think they wouldn?t release details to all and sundry! If you believe otherwise you aint never been in business!!
COYB! NSNO! IMWT! KAGS! FTRS! 1=20!
Tommy Harris. The point about the problems getting away from the new arena are irrelevant. As you will recall if the football stadium had been built there the provision of car parking at the site was virtually zero (aprt from a VIP car park).
The reason there is so much trouble getting off the King’s Dock site now is because too many people who go there think a motor car is the same thing as a wheel chair and want to park yards away.
It simply would not have been an issue if the football stadium had been built there because there would not have been any chance of parking that close.
The reason there is so much trouble getting off the King’s Dock site now is because too many people who go there think a motor car is the same thing as a wheel chair and want to park yards away.
It simply would not have been an issue if the football stadium had been built there because there would not have been any chance of parking that close.
Tommy G,
You say yourself the club has been mismanaged for years yet can’t explain how/why now you’re faith is fully restored...... especially as what you voted for bares no relation whatsoever to what is now on offer. Funded to "their satisfaction"........ Are you sure? "practically nothing" is now edging past £80m with another slice to come. There is no significant issue to answer regarding school etc, especially in comparison to the issues regarding the kirkby fiasco...... which has whole councils objecting to it and is closing a school, 70 homes and a care home.
You say yourself the club has been mismanaged for years yet can’t explain how/why now you’re faith is fully restored...... especially as what you voted for bares no relation whatsoever to what is now on offer. Funded to "their satisfaction"........ Are you sure? "practically nothing" is now edging past £80m with another slice to come. There is no significant issue to answer regarding school etc, especially in comparison to the issues regarding the kirkby fiasco...... which has whole councils objecting to it and is closing a school, 70 homes and a care home.
Rob,
The Speke site that was most recently earmarked (i.e. last year) was the Freight terminal on the opposite side of Speke Boulevard to where the old airport is. I lived in Speke for 30 yrs, and now Woolton, so I too know the area very well. As you will know this area is regularly gridlocked with just the retail park and a few thousand shoppers, it simply couldn’t handle the numbers. Kirkby is similar in that only 2 dual carriageways and knowsley lane pierce the M57. One of these is the east Lancs which is at saturation levels for much of the day in anycase. The club’s own transport plan has shown in its various incarnations that it is not possible to get the volume of traffic through these bottlenecks on to the Kirkby side of the M57 in the required time windows, hence the park and ride (now park and walk). The public transport is a fraction of that for GP, with far less direct services to all Liverpool districts. Therefore, if you currently struggle to get a bus/train to the match, then unless you now live close to Kirkby you’re in for a real treat of reduced numbers of services and changes.
As far as Manchester Utd is concerned, they have played there for 98 yrs, it is within walking distance of Manchester city centre, and is in greater MANCHESTER..... how keen do you think they might be to move out to Altrincham?
The Speke site that was most recently earmarked (i.e. last year) was the Freight terminal on the opposite side of Speke Boulevard to where the old airport is. I lived in Speke for 30 yrs, and now Woolton, so I too know the area very well. As you will know this area is regularly gridlocked with just the retail park and a few thousand shoppers, it simply couldn’t handle the numbers. Kirkby is similar in that only 2 dual carriageways and knowsley lane pierce the M57. One of these is the east Lancs which is at saturation levels for much of the day in anycase. The club’s own transport plan has shown in its various incarnations that it is not possible to get the volume of traffic through these bottlenecks on to the Kirkby side of the M57 in the required time windows, hence the park and ride (now park and walk). The public transport is a fraction of that for GP, with far less direct services to all Liverpool districts. Therefore, if you currently struggle to get a bus/train to the match, then unless you now live close to Kirkby you’re in for a real treat of reduced numbers of services and changes.
As far as Manchester Utd is concerned, they have played there for 98 yrs, it is within walking distance of Manchester city centre, and is in greater MANCHESTER..... how keen do you think they might be to move out to Altrincham?
Andy
Can you come and explain your views re origins of most reds fans in the yankee bar. I think you may leave with a different perspective. The fact that they have a wider fan base does not mean the majority of their fans who attend are not from the city, does it!
The numbers of future LFC fans in the city will grow too if we abandon the City of Liverpool.
Tom
I have worked in Manchester area since 1997. I now work in Wilmslow and they all consider themselves to be part of Manchester even though technically this is not.the case.
What is wrong with Merseyside? Knowsley is one of the Merseyside Councils, as is Halton and even St Helens. It does not make sense to be so restrictive in our outllook or we just deny ourselves opportunities. I am not saying Kirby is the right one, simply it is one and it is one on Merseyside. Being on Merseyside is not a problem. I agree with you about Speke but traffic to the ground at present is no laughing matter and I doubt a redeveloped Kirby could be worse.
Anyway how is life in Speke/Garston these days? I have moved to a ?Last of the Summer Wine? theme park in Yorkshire.
I have worked in Manchester area since 1997. I now work in Wilmslow and they all consider themselves to be part of Manchester even though technically this is not.the case.
What is wrong with Merseyside? Knowsley is one of the Merseyside Councils, as is Halton and even St Helens. It does not make sense to be so restrictive in our outllook or we just deny ourselves opportunities. I am not saying Kirby is the right one, simply it is one and it is one on Merseyside. Being on Merseyside is not a problem. I agree with you about Speke but traffic to the ground at present is no laughing matter and I doubt a redeveloped Kirby could be worse.
Anyway how is life in Speke/Garston these days? I have moved to a ?Last of the Summer Wine? theme park in Yorkshire.
Rob,
Not a fan of the term Merseyside tbh. Reminds me of the 70?s and 80?s years of decline etc and Liverpool Bay has a far nicer ring to it. My aversion is not necessarily to Kirkby as such, just any peripheral site. Public transport and even available main arterial routes decrease the further you go from the centre of Liverpool. This is fully acknowledged in the transport plan that we can?t get anywhere near the transport capacities we get at GP..... hence the largest park and ride anywhere in the country, now they have had to downgrade it since Merseytravel have told them there isn?t enough buses in the region to fill their scheme. So, you couldn?t be more wrong in your assumptions that Kirkby couldn?t be worse.
Yorkshire? Lived in Sheffield for a while, no great shakes!
Not a fan of the term Merseyside tbh. Reminds me of the 70?s and 80?s years of decline etc and Liverpool Bay has a far nicer ring to it. My aversion is not necessarily to Kirkby as such, just any peripheral site. Public transport and even available main arterial routes decrease the further you go from the centre of Liverpool. This is fully acknowledged in the transport plan that we can?t get anywhere near the transport capacities we get at GP..... hence the largest park and ride anywhere in the country, now they have had to downgrade it since Merseytravel have told them there isn?t enough buses in the region to fill their scheme. So, you couldn?t be more wrong in your assumptions that Kirkby couldn?t be worse.
Yorkshire? Lived in Sheffield for a while, no great shakes!
Jim
Yes we need to expand the fan base, however we need to start by preserving what we have got. GP is a familiar location for all current supporters and all things remaining the same would continue attract its share of support from accross the region. Liverpool City centre is familiar to all people in the city region people have an affiliation with it and locationally would put us at an advantage over the other lot due to its superior public transport links and visibility. For all but a few in north Knowsley, people have no affiliation with Kirkby ? it is not visible to the 1.3 million people in the City region. We are a generation away from being a small club on the edge of a large conerbation.
Yes we need to expand the fan base, however we need to start by preserving what we have got. GP is a familiar location for all current supporters and all things remaining the same would continue attract its share of support from accross the region. Liverpool City centre is familiar to all people in the city region people have an affiliation with it and locationally would put us at an advantage over the other lot due to its superior public transport links and visibility. For all but a few in north Knowsley, people have no affiliation with Kirkby ? it is not visible to the 1.3 million people in the City region. We are a generation away from being a small club on the edge of a large conerbation.
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1 Posted 05/05/2008 at 15:06:45
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4 points:
1 - you cant compare Emirates with Kirkby Dome
2 - Arsenal are in London and if only a fraction of the tourists that are visiting London go to their home games they will have full stadium. EPL is major pulling factor and Arsenal are one of Sky 4
3. Have you read the transport assessment of the Kirkby scheme
Its no brainer for me