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No quick fixes, no billionaires please.
I want Everton to change. It's depressing to watch everything about the club right now. Embarrassing revelations about our finances, a stale and sterile opening match of the season, the lack of hope that anything is going to improve any time soon. Yet I don't want to change for the sake of change, and I don't want change to undermine the things about Everton that I'm still proud of.
110 Comments: We don't have any money. I want that to change. I don't want that to change by Everton being bought by some foreign billionaire who wants to use our club as a vanity project. I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City. I care so much less about football these days, when the likes of Manchester City and Chelsea ignore any kind of long term sustainability, undermine the clubs who do things right, have no need to build a legacy, because they can just throw money at a problem right now.
When Stan Kroenke bought a majority share in Arsenal last season I think we became the only top 10 Premier League team that remained predominantly British owned. To me that's something to be proud of. I think in the long term it's both undesirable and unsustainable to have the Premier League be owned by individuals scattered around the world, with no real feeling for the history of the league or the clubs involved.
I don't want to be reliant on a single individual for transfer funds, for security, for our very existence as a club. I actually don't care that we have no money right now, I care far more that we appear to have no plan. I want to see an Everton that has a sustainable business plan, that's well run on and off the pitch, that maximizes its history and what's special about the club. I want to follow a model far more like Arsenal's during the last decade; not reliant on a rich benefactor, but developing revenue streams themselves, nurturing youth, pushing forward in a business sense.
It's a more difficult path, and it's slower. It denies us the opportunity to throw twenty or thirty million pounds at a player because our sheikh or our oil oligarch has given us a big chunk of funds. But it's far more sustainable, it would keep us truer to our roots, and it would be far more rewarding; even if it limits our chance of success during this (temporary, I believe) period where many Premier League clubs are billionaire vanity projects.
We don't, despite Kenwright's claims, need a billionaire. I don't want a billionaire. That doesn't mean I'm happy with the status quo. If we're sold then I want us to be sold to someone who has a strong business plan for developing Everton as a successful commercial enterprise. Developing foundations that will see us stronger regardless of the involvement of any single individual. The problem is not that we're poor, it's that we're badly run. Do you think the banks would have placed such limitations on our funding if they had confidence in our long term business model?
It's a desire that's less easily converted to a simple slogan like 'Sack the board'. It's not as immediately interesting as 'Moyes Out'. Although there's very legitimate criticisms of Moyes, I don't see any point in calling for a change of manager. It's like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. It's a distraction from the real issue. Even if there was a short term boost, any manager is going to be hamstrung by the deep rooted structural problems around the club. Moyes has done a lot for us, I'd like to see him have the opportunity to manage in a positive, professional business environment, where he can be confident that the non-football matters are being run right. I'm not sure he's ever had that. It's not a question of 'who's better'? Unless the massive problems Everton faces in general are solved, nobody is going to be better, not in the long term.
I'm proud to be an Evertonian because of what Everton are. We are not just another club. I never want to be just another club. We should never be a vanity project. We should never be satisfied with the short term fix of a change of manager that addresses none of our serious long term problems. We should demand success at the same time as we support the team. And we should be prepared to take the long road to security and success, never the quick fix.
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I really enjoyed reading this article and i think it is very wise in most respects.
But the cold reality is that the BPL, formerly the EPL, has become a billionaires playground.
My great fear is that the model you lay out will be appropriate going forward for life in the Championship as an occasionally promoted but financial secure team-- certainly bottom half of the Barclays Premier League at best.
And in 20 years we will look back and say it wasnt Kenwright and Everton that sealed Everton's fate-- it was Russian Kleptocrats, Middle Eastern Oil Magnates and American Private Equity Barons, who didnt pick Everton as their toy.
But the cold reality is that the BPL, formerly the EPL, has become a billionaires playground.
My great fear is that the model you lay out will be appropriate going forward for life in the Championship as an occasionally promoted but financial secure team-- certainly bottom half of the Barclays Premier League at best.
And in 20 years we will look back and say it wasnt Kenwright and Everton that sealed Everton's fate-- it was Russian Kleptocrats, Middle Eastern Oil Magnates and American Private Equity Barons, who didnt pick Everton as their toy.
Funnily enough, the Kings Waterfront development was supposed to deliver enhanced revenue streams: improved catering, merch; increased capacity; multi-purpose stadium; ancillary residential and hotel/conference developments.
When that went tits up, that's when I and others wanted a change of ownership. Whilst I have some sympathy with your argument, I fear that if this change doesn't happen soon, we'll be left even further adrift, and the club will be less attractive to new owners. The current owners would be lucky to get anything back.
When that went tits up, that's when I and others wanted a change of ownership. Whilst I have some sympathy with your argument, I fear that if this change doesn't happen soon, we'll be left even further adrift, and the club will be less attractive to new owners. The current owners would be lucky to get anything back.
That's a depressing scenario, Jeff, but definitely a possibility.
I'm not sure I'd want in that situation. I never want Everton to be a toy. I don't know if I'd ever want us to be a billionaire plaything, even if it meant we'd never be able to compete.
For me, I think, the soul of the club is more important than the success of the club. My hope is that we can have both.
I'm not sure I'd want in that situation. I never want Everton to be a toy. I don't know if I'd ever want us to be a billionaire plaything, even if it meant we'd never be able to compete.
For me, I think, the soul of the club is more important than the success of the club. My hope is that we can have both.
Matt, I definitely agree with you there. The Kings Dock is probably the biggest missed opportunity for the club in the last fifty years, and it still depresses me that we managed to mess up such a potentially awesome project.
I'm certainly *not* arguing that we wouldn't benefit from a change of ownership. I don't have any confidence that Kenwright and the current board can provide the strong business leadership and structure that I'd like to see. More a case of just stating what I'd really hope for in any change, and what my fears are about the potential alternatives.
I'm certainly *not* arguing that we wouldn't benefit from a change of ownership. I don't have any confidence that Kenwright and the current board can provide the strong business leadership and structure that I'd like to see. More a case of just stating what I'd really hope for in any change, and what my fears are about the potential alternatives.
" I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City."
I bet you Man City fans used to say the same thing after Abramovich propelled Chelsea into another spending league.
I bet you wouldn't find one of them who would still agree, and who is not absolutely loving the ride they are on right now.
I bet you Man City fans used to say the same thing after Abramovich propelled Chelsea into another spending league.
I bet you wouldn't find one of them who would still agree, and who is not absolutely loving the ride they are on right now.
What a pointless article. We can only move forward, have optimism and hope if a Billionaire comes in for us clears our debts and supports the new manager with much needed funds and freshens the squad up. Im not looking for 50m players but to compete with giants like Leicester and Sunderland would be nice!
As for 'undermine the clubs who do things right' what planet are you on are you suggesting BK and Moyes have done anything right over the years by this club except selling all our assets and struggling each and every year with smaller and smaller squads of mediocre players out of position.
Robin you will get your wish that we will fall down the divisions whilst Utd, City and the RS take all the riches it will be nice beating Skem away though.
As for 'undermine the clubs who do things right' what planet are you on are you suggesting BK and Moyes have done anything right over the years by this club except selling all our assets and struggling each and every year with smaller and smaller squads of mediocre players out of position.
Robin you will get your wish that we will fall down the divisions whilst Utd, City and the RS take all the riches it will be nice beating Skem away though.
Ok the way I see it is this;
I agree with you to an extent; I don't want to be another Man City.
BUT I don't want to continue as we are either - we will go completely bust and get relegated, and then relegated again etc. etc.
If I had to choose between the two scenarios, I would choose the Man City option though.
But those aren't the only two options.
To me, as an Australian, Everton being British owned isn't that big a deal. The reality is half the top players aren't British, so I don't really see why the owners have to be - as nice as that would be. See, if I was a billionaire (which I'm not, sorry guys) I'd like to think I would make a fine owner, doing what's best for the clubs current and future interests. And that's the key to it for me, it doesn't matter where the owner comes from, as long as they do the right thing by the club. If Kenwright is any indication of how a British owner would fair (which I know he's not really) then I would DEMAND a foreign owner.
Now, a billionaire would be nice. New stadium (or a badarse redevelopment of Goodison) a few good signings, buy back finch farm, better marketing etc.
If I had my way, the billionaire wouldn't just plow zillions into the flavour of the month players like city and chelsea, but would put more money into junior development, junior scouting, and the academies. It would be fantastic to buy a few players here and there as necessary, but predominantly "grow your own". I know our academy has a pretty good reputation, but it can be improved. I would want kids from all over the world aiming to get into the Everton academies. That would be my dream, and my ideal billionaire.
Of course, if we did get a Mansour or Abramovich who just wants to buy everyone, I'd still take it. Is take it and hope FIFA gets their shit together to stop that shit, and force all owners to invest more in their youth and local communities.
But this is all just fantasy talk. As it stands now, I'd take any arsehole who can work to get rid of our debt and give an odd million or so to our manager so he could at least get a loan player or two.
That would be nice.
I agree with you to an extent; I don't want to be another Man City.
BUT I don't want to continue as we are either - we will go completely bust and get relegated, and then relegated again etc. etc.
If I had to choose between the two scenarios, I would choose the Man City option though.
But those aren't the only two options.
To me, as an Australian, Everton being British owned isn't that big a deal. The reality is half the top players aren't British, so I don't really see why the owners have to be - as nice as that would be. See, if I was a billionaire (which I'm not, sorry guys) I'd like to think I would make a fine owner, doing what's best for the clubs current and future interests. And that's the key to it for me, it doesn't matter where the owner comes from, as long as they do the right thing by the club. If Kenwright is any indication of how a British owner would fair (which I know he's not really) then I would DEMAND a foreign owner.
Now, a billionaire would be nice. New stadium (or a badarse redevelopment of Goodison) a few good signings, buy back finch farm, better marketing etc.
If I had my way, the billionaire wouldn't just plow zillions into the flavour of the month players like city and chelsea, but would put more money into junior development, junior scouting, and the academies. It would be fantastic to buy a few players here and there as necessary, but predominantly "grow your own". I know our academy has a pretty good reputation, but it can be improved. I would want kids from all over the world aiming to get into the Everton academies. That would be my dream, and my ideal billionaire.
Of course, if we did get a Mansour or Abramovich who just wants to buy everyone, I'd still take it. Is take it and hope FIFA gets their shit together to stop that shit, and force all owners to invest more in their youth and local communities.
But this is all just fantasy talk. As it stands now, I'd take any arsehole who can work to get rid of our debt and give an odd million or so to our manager so he could at least get a loan player or two.
That would be nice.
David - our debts are 45 million. That doesn't require a billionaire to clear them. Relative to many other Premier League teams our actual debt levels aren't that high. But because we're badly run from a business standpoint, and fail to improve or maximize our revenues, we're unable to address that debt or provide any confidence to our creditors that would allow us to free up extra funds. Yes, it'd be great to have our debts cleared, but we'd also have more opportunities to move forward financially if we were a well run business in general, even if those debts weren't cleared at once.
I didn't suggest that we are one of the clubs who "do things right" (though I'd issue with your suggestion that Moyes has never done anything right by Everton). I'm talking about clubs that are well run, who have worked hard to maintain financial stability, a solid business model, and consistent growth. They now find themselves struggling to compete because, for example, some random sheikh with access to, in effect, completely unlimited funds can just throw money at Manchester City as he wishes.
I didn't suggest that we are one of the clubs who "do things right" (though I'd issue with your suggestion that Moyes has never done anything right by Everton). I'm talking about clubs that are well run, who have worked hard to maintain financial stability, a solid business model, and consistent growth. They now find themselves struggling to compete because, for example, some random sheikh with access to, in effect, completely unlimited funds can just throw money at Manchester City as he wishes.
What a small club minded approach. Rather see us fall down the lower leagues than become a Man City? Wow. What I see when I watch City is a stadium full of supporters having the time of their lives. They pay their hard earned money to go watch a team, and a second team, of some of the best players in the world. They're entertained by brilliant touches from Silva, Aguero, Toure, Tevez. They know they have a chance to win every competition they enter, which is currently every competition available. They know that when they go into that stadium they are going to be entertained. I envy them. Only a fool would rather have a team playing in League One against Sheffield Wednesday rather than at home on a Wednesday night against a Barcelona/Bayern Munich/Inter. So you would rather take a trip to Stevenage than a midweek trip to Barcelona. What a fan!! No, sorry.
Robin
You lost me at " I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City."
You lost me at " I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City."
I'm not saying I *want* to see us drop down the divisions. I'm saying that I want us to succeed, and believe we *can* succeed, by simply being a well run club, something we haven't been for years.
If we can achieve that, even if it takes a little longer, if it's a little harder, the appreciation of our achievements will be so much greater than if we won some trophies for a few years because a billionaire decided we'd be a fun toy for a while.
That's why I don't envy Manchester City fans. That's why I don't want us to be Manchester City. I want us to achieve success by working for it, not because it's gifted to us, because that means so much less.
If we can achieve that, even if it takes a little longer, if it's a little harder, the appreciation of our achievements will be so much greater than if we won some trophies for a few years because a billionaire decided we'd be a fun toy for a while.
That's why I don't envy Manchester City fans. That's why I don't want us to be Manchester City. I want us to achieve success by working for it, not because it's gifted to us, because that means so much less.
Not sure why people are attacking an article that promotes success based on solid management that retains the soul and the spirit of the club? Seems like sense to me.
Ray - I totally understand why other people might think that way. That's how I feel though.
If we become another Manchester City then we're just another generic club that someone decided to throw money at. I don't see any great difference between Manchester City and MK Dons. It's just another franchise club, created at random, just that in City's case they happen to be in the same geographical location. And just like AFC Wimbledon fans, the soul of my club feels more important to me than that.
I'm not sure I can explain it any better than that. When we become a vanity project for some billionaire then even if it's the same colors and the same team name, the same chants, it's not Everton any more. And if it's not Everton then it doesn't matter how many games are won and how many trophies are collected.
If we become another Manchester City then we're just another generic club that someone decided to throw money at. I don't see any great difference between Manchester City and MK Dons. It's just another franchise club, created at random, just that in City's case they happen to be in the same geographical location. And just like AFC Wimbledon fans, the soul of my club feels more important to me than that.
I'm not sure I can explain it any better than that. When we become a vanity project for some billionaire then even if it's the same colors and the same team name, the same chants, it's not Everton any more. And if it's not Everton then it doesn't matter how many games are won and how many trophies are collected.
Robin that was a totally depressing read and it left me wondering what the fuck supporting the blues is all about.
Everton FC is not an institution that you role out every Saturday, with BK at the helm, shouting out how many times we've won the league and how long we played in the top flight. Who gives a fuck? We are not in the EPL as some ornamental side show – look at the Sheffield clubs, Forest, Leeds and ask yourself if they would not love the money that has been flooded into City – and please come off your high horse if you think that City fans want more of playing in Divisions 1 and 2 or have a high roller ploughing them into the CL and top 4 of the EPL.
The EPL is a business and Everton, as far as I know, want to compete. For me, bring on anyone who has the cash who wants to show the world that Everton mean business.
Everton FC is not an institution that you role out every Saturday, with BK at the helm, shouting out how many times we've won the league and how long we played in the top flight. Who gives a fuck? We are not in the EPL as some ornamental side show – look at the Sheffield clubs, Forest, Leeds and ask yourself if they would not love the money that has been flooded into City – and please come off your high horse if you think that City fans want more of playing in Divisions 1 and 2 or have a high roller ploughing them into the CL and top 4 of the EPL.
The EPL is a business and Everton, as far as I know, want to compete. For me, bring on anyone who has the cash who wants to show the world that Everton mean business.
OK, there's clearly something about the message being lost here.
I am *not* saying that I want us to be small time. I am saying that I think we can be big time without being a billionaire plaything, and that would be my ideal situation. I want to see Everton set up as a great business, well run on and off the pitch, not reliant on external funding, set up to succeed for the next fifty years and not just until some individual gets bored of his toy.
I appreciate that this is more difficult to achieve, and may take longer. I still think it's preferable to either declining as we are now, or becoming like Manchester City.
I personally don't ever want Everton to be a vanity project, even if it gave us on-field success, because it wouldn't be Everton to me. But I didn't want this to turn into an article about whether it would be cool to have a billion pounds or not. I wanted to outline what I really hope for, what I think can bring this club long term sustained success, and still keep our soul.
I am *not* saying that I want us to be small time. I am saying that I think we can be big time without being a billionaire plaything, and that would be my ideal situation. I want to see Everton set up as a great business, well run on and off the pitch, not reliant on external funding, set up to succeed for the next fifty years and not just until some individual gets bored of his toy.
I appreciate that this is more difficult to achieve, and may take longer. I still think it's preferable to either declining as we are now, or becoming like Manchester City.
I personally don't ever want Everton to be a vanity project, even if it gave us on-field success, because it wouldn't be Everton to me. But I didn't want this to turn into an article about whether it would be cool to have a billion pounds or not. I wanted to outline what I really hope for, what I think can bring this club long term sustained success, and still keep our soul.
I'm very glad my father and his generation didn't tell John Moores to fuck off when he came calling.
Before anyone plays the "Evertonian" card, enough of the Moores fortune ended up at Anfield to show business is business.
There's no choice anymore, the billionaires are here to stay and if we don't get one pronto we'll join Leeds, the Sheffield clubs, Coventry, Southampton, Charlton, Derby, Forest, Boro as another ex Prem statistic exacerbated by having you know who next door.
This elitist ideology has plagued Everton as long as I can remember. It's about time this club showed it's teeth and got off it's fat lazy arse.
Before anyone plays the "Evertonian" card, enough of the Moores fortune ended up at Anfield to show business is business.
There's no choice anymore, the billionaires are here to stay and if we don't get one pronto we'll join Leeds, the Sheffield clubs, Coventry, Southampton, Charlton, Derby, Forest, Boro as another ex Prem statistic exacerbated by having you know who next door.
This elitist ideology has plagued Everton as long as I can remember. It's about time this club showed it's teeth and got off it's fat lazy arse.
Fantastic post, Robin!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way!
The world is going crazy these days.
Hopefully the insane money spending will end soon, because nobody understands why someone with a certain talent earns more money in one week than you and I earn together in 5 years time!
I'm for a solid solution and Robin is right...that takes time.
See if the Man City fans still laugh in ten years time...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way!
The world is going crazy these days.
Hopefully the insane money spending will end soon, because nobody understands why someone with a certain talent earns more money in one week than you and I earn together in 5 years time!
I'm for a solid solution and Robin is right...that takes time.
See if the Man City fans still laugh in ten years time...
Robin what a crock. You would rather Everton be a Sheffield United or Sheff Wed or Bradford and go down the leagues what kind of Evertonian are you. This club needs a fucking billionaire, and it needs a new stadium and it needs Kenwright and Evertonians like you need to get into the 21st century and stop thinking that football is not a global money spinning business. Because it is and we need to be at the forefront if possible.
Bobby - no, that's not my argument. My argument is that we don't need a billionaire to be successful, that we can achieve success by building a great business. There are a limited number of billionaires in the world, I can't believe that the only way that anyone is ever going to succeed in football is by tapping into one of those individuals' credit line. That's a seriously depressing thought.
Yes, football is a global money spinning *business*. So I'd hope that some business competency (which we don't have) would ultimately provide us with a greater level of success.
I don't *want* us to be a Sheffield United, or Sheffield Wed or whoever. I just think we can aim for success without whoring ourself out to some random rich guy.
Yes, football is a global money spinning *business*. So I'd hope that some business competency (which we don't have) would ultimately provide us with a greater level of success.
I don't *want* us to be a Sheffield United, or Sheffield Wed or whoever. I just think we can aim for success without whoring ourself out to some random rich guy.
Robin I understand your point of view but unfortunately on't share it. Give me a billionaire any day cause you know what they don't become billionaires without having a bit of savvy. When we were going to be bought by the encyclopedic russian(correct me if I'm wrong) I had the same point of view but after the debacle of our board I would welcome money. Just so we could see a way forward.
Robin I totally agree with you mate.
There could be any badge on that strip, what about their history or tradition has been retained? Nothing.
It's just 25 mercenaries who don't give a shit.
What I really can't understand in the financial dire straights we are in, with our obvious innability to compete commercially, is that the manager, who is in control of all of our club's assets (by his and the chairman's regular admission), isn't tasked with diminishing the debt.
It might not be popular but we should be selling our valuable players who are in their late 20's and replacing them with cheaper, British lads in their late teens, that is the art of management..
Allowing our players to get old on our books, in our financial predicament, is absolutely criminal.
There could be any badge on that strip, what about their history or tradition has been retained? Nothing.
It's just 25 mercenaries who don't give a shit.
What I really can't understand in the financial dire straights we are in, with our obvious innability to compete commercially, is that the manager, who is in control of all of our club's assets (by his and the chairman's regular admission), isn't tasked with diminishing the debt.
It might not be popular but we should be selling our valuable players who are in their late 20's and replacing them with cheaper, British lads in their late teens, that is the art of management..
Allowing our players to get old on our books, in our financial predicament, is absolutely criminal.
Drew if we sell our prized players and dont get me wrong if someone offers enough money I would gladly say go.But to be replaced by what? Would we get enough quality to keep us in the Premier League. No we would get no money for replacements and even if we did stay in the prem we would be even further back meaning less money for position and TV rights. Another year another debt another player sold and on and on.
I don't see why people don't get Rob's point, it's pretty obvious what he is saying. You might not agree with it but it's still pretty clear what he is trying to say.
For the record, I agree with him, it would be much better to achieve something with effort and organic growth rather than have it handed to us on a plate.
Sure, some Man City fans are probably loving it right now but I know some others who are not and that will always be the case.
So good article mate.
We need millions and millions and millions of pounds to compete.
If we don't get a new owner we're going to fall further and further behind the rest.
I would rather be a 'Man City' than Everton the way we are - SKINT with NO HOPE
If we don't get a new owner we're going to fall further and further behind the rest.
I would rather be a 'Man City' than Everton the way we are - SKINT with NO HOPE
Robbie, when you are totally skint you go to your creditors and say "I'm totally skint" and they work out a plan for repayment.
In this case our creditors best opportunity for repayment is by our staying in the Premier league where we can continue to service our debts against our business model so, with a plan in place, and I stress, with a plan in place, they will not take all of the money from a sale because it serves their best interests for us to rebuild.
But we owe what we owe and our assets are on the pitch.
Arteta for example is worth let's say £10m for arguments sake, what is he worth in 3 years? He will have taken £2.7m in wages and be worth the square root of fuck all.
Common sense dictates that players like him and Cahill etc, have to be sold while they have a value.
A top notch manager in our predicament realises this and plans for the future - I pray Moyes isn't just keeping the squad together for one last go at it and risking the farm, or worse still, he can't even see the wood for the trees.. "We will not become a selling club"
In this case our creditors best opportunity for repayment is by our staying in the Premier league where we can continue to service our debts against our business model so, with a plan in place, and I stress, with a plan in place, they will not take all of the money from a sale because it serves their best interests for us to rebuild.
But we owe what we owe and our assets are on the pitch.
Arteta for example is worth let's say £10m for arguments sake, what is he worth in 3 years? He will have taken £2.7m in wages and be worth the square root of fuck all.
Common sense dictates that players like him and Cahill etc, have to be sold while they have a value.
A top notch manager in our predicament realises this and plans for the future - I pray Moyes isn't just keeping the squad together for one last go at it and risking the farm, or worse still, he can't even see the wood for the trees.. "We will not become a selling club"
Everton is already a skint, broken arses vanity project.
Drew I agree totally with your post @25 and it makes perfect sense if you are a business to go cap in hand. Problem is that we are skint and have been skint for a while, and have already gone to the bank with our cap in hand and got more money previously. Now if I am the bank manager and I see that I have been tapped a couple of times and the business owner is now coming back for more then I think to myself well there s definitely something wrong with this business model. How may companies do you know that have gone to the bank over the last couple of years and have had been put into receivership by the bank as going concerns.
Don' get me wrong Drew I am not averse to selling and clearing the debt in the short term. But it really is a short term solution.
As for Moyes I honestly think that he feels that if we sell players from our threadbare squad that he wont get any money to reinvest (only my opinion)
The point goes back to the original post as to whether we need a Billionaire we dont necessarily but if one came in and stopped us having to sell our prized assets then I'd welcome it.
Don' get me wrong Drew I am not averse to selling and clearing the debt in the short term. But it really is a short term solution.
As for Moyes I honestly think that he feels that if we sell players from our threadbare squad that he wont get any money to reinvest (only my opinion)
The point goes back to the original post as to whether we need a Billionaire we dont necessarily but if one came in and stopped us having to sell our prized assets then I'd welcome it.
Robbie, if there's one thing I'm sure of, it is that the bank knows exactly the extent of our financial plight.
Barclays don't give you £45m and not keep an eye on your P&L.
They probably attend the board meetings.
Barclays don't give you £45m and not keep an eye on your P&L.
They probably attend the board meetings.
Sell Jagielka £15m, buy Scott Dann £5m, repeat..
Like the thinking on Scott Dann and your right Barclays would be keeping an eye on it. But it would only placate the debt's to certain extent. I am certainly not disagreeing with you and would love it to solve our woes but we have no business model and it only allows an inept board to continue in the same vain.
@ Robin Cannon: You don't speak for me and many other Evertonians, that's for sure.
I recall us being widely regarded as the best club in Europe at a time (mid 1980s). Ever since, my dream has been for us to win the European Cup. But ever since we've become unable to compete on the field with other clubs who have moved way ahead of us financially.
We don't have a global fanbase to derive income from, and grand notions of "hard work" or good youth policies somehow enabling us to recover our once lofty status are an insult to any thinking man's intelligence.
There is only ONE WAY Everton will ever be top dogs again - which is, after all, the point of existing as a top level football club - and that's if we enjoy a Man City style takeover. You may be happy to see us win nothing and go nowhere and still congratulate yourself on what a great fan you are, but that will never do for me, not after what we came so close to in the mid 1980s.
I recall us being widely regarded as the best club in Europe at a time (mid 1980s). Ever since, my dream has been for us to win the European Cup. But ever since we've become unable to compete on the field with other clubs who have moved way ahead of us financially.
We don't have a global fanbase to derive income from, and grand notions of "hard work" or good youth policies somehow enabling us to recover our once lofty status are an insult to any thinking man's intelligence.
There is only ONE WAY Everton will ever be top dogs again - which is, after all, the point of existing as a top level football club - and that's if we enjoy a Man City style takeover. You may be happy to see us win nothing and go nowhere and still congratulate yourself on what a great fan you are, but that will never do for me, not after what we came so close to in the mid 1980s.
"I would prefer us to drop down the divisions than become another Man City" says Robin Cannon.
This just about sums up some of the numpties that follow us thesedays.
I NEVER want this club to be kicking it's heels in the lower dleagues at any cost.
Embarassing statement, Robin.
This just about sums up some of the numpties that follow us thesedays.
I NEVER want this club to be kicking it's heels in the lower dleagues at any cost.
Embarassing statement, Robin.
The Arsenal financial model and a self sufficient, confident business plan is the ONLY option for Everton Football Club at this stage... and for that to work a new owner is needed, but the new owner/s need only the finances to erase the current debt and construct the infrastructure necessary to develop a successful business plan. The main requirements of a new owner is a savvy business and marketing head.
2 years ago a billionaire owner was a viable option; it is now out of the question. From next season onward, there should never be another club that will rebuild (or piss on football's ethics) in the way Man City have. Chelsea were the warning to UEFA, Man City were the straw that broke the camel's back, hence the introduction of legislation that will restrict any team receiving massive sums of money for transfers... THAT is Everton FC's main crux, investment in our club (or any club) now requires more than just throwing cash at it.
2 years ago a billionaire owner was a viable option; it is now out of the question. From next season onward, there should never be another club that will rebuild (or piss on football's ethics) in the way Man City have. Chelsea were the warning to UEFA, Man City were the straw that broke the camel's back, hence the introduction of legislation that will restrict any team receiving massive sums of money for transfers... THAT is Everton FC's main crux, investment in our club (or any club) now requires more than just throwing cash at it.
You're not the son of Tommy Cannon of Cannon & Ball are you? - No you can't be - You're a proper comedian!
I couldn't agree more with this article, I'd hate us to be like Man City/Chelsea etc who might aswell rename their clubs because they certainly are as false as false can be. People who think being like Man City would be a good thing don't realise that the reason the Man Citys and the Chelseas are rich is because their owners violate human rights in their countries with slave labour etc and I'd hate money being spent on Everton to have come through those means.
The Premier League is bust, I love Everton and I love the fact we havn't sold our soul, the day we do is the day I switch football off for good, it's just not that important.
The Premier League is bust, I love Everton and I love the fact we havn't sold our soul, the day we do is the day I switch football off for good, it's just not that important.
Sorry but the dropping down leagues (whether you want or would prefer it) would be disastrous. It's a statement born from complacency from not really genuinely competing but not actually have gone down. Southampton, Newcastle, West Ham (well perhaps not yet for them) Norwich, Middlesbrough, Oxford United, as said the Sheffield clubs, Leeds... well you get the idea - they would rather be in the top flight.
I understand what you're saying to a degree... but froma team once labelled the Mersey Millionaires, can we really complain about teams being on an unlevel financial playing field?
I understand what you're saying to a degree... but froma team once labelled the Mersey Millionaires, can we really complain about teams being on an unlevel financial playing field?
@Jay(31) - I don't claim to speak for all Evertonians, only myself. I do disagree that there is only one way for us to ever be successful again.
@Ste(32) - I never want us to be kicking our heels in the lower divisions either. It'd be crap. But I'm not embarrassed about my statement because if we're like Manchester City then we don't exist as anything other than a label any more.
@david(33) - You've summarized what I wanted to say, perhaps more effectively than me. I am *not* saying that I don't want Everton to be bought, or that I don't want an owner who'll put some investment into the club. But I want a sustainable model. I want someone who's going to make Everton into a great business, a well run entity that's going to be self-sufficient and secure whether a particular individual is around or not. That's clearly not going to happen with BK.
@Ste(32) - I never want us to be kicking our heels in the lower divisions either. It'd be crap. But I'm not embarrassed about my statement because if we're like Manchester City then we don't exist as anything other than a label any more.
@david(33) - You've summarized what I wanted to say, perhaps more effectively than me. I am *not* saying that I don't want Everton to be bought, or that I don't want an owner who'll put some investment into the club. But I want a sustainable model. I want someone who's going to make Everton into a great business, a well run entity that's going to be self-sufficient and secure whether a particular individual is around or not. That's clearly not going to happen with BK.
Is this Robin Cannon the son of Mr Rent-A-Quote 'professor' Tom Cannon by any chance?
Yes (although you can take the Professor out of quotes, given that he actually is one). Not entirely sure what the relevance is, though.
Robin, we're already owned by a Billionaire, or at least by several multi-millionaires that make up a billionaire between them.
I think you konw the difference between other clubs billionaires and ours though without me having to point out the obvious.
I think you konw the difference between other clubs billionaires and ours though without me having to point out the obvious.
@ Marcus Kendall: Do you really believe UEFA's rules are about "fair play"? Can anyone be that naive?
UEFA's objective is to ensure that the European Cup can only EVER be won by any one of the following:
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Man Utd
Liverpool
Inter Milan
AC Milan
Juventus
with perhaps Arsenal and one or two other long-established elite sides.
The last thing UEFA wants is for a club like Man City (i.e. a newcomer) to rise up and challenge its best mates for the EC. That's the reality of these shameful, disgusting, duplicitous "fair play" rules.
UEFA's objective is to ensure that the European Cup can only EVER be won by any one of the following:
Barcelona
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Man Utd
Liverpool
Inter Milan
AC Milan
Juventus
with perhaps Arsenal and one or two other long-established elite sides.
The last thing UEFA wants is for a club like Man City (i.e. a newcomer) to rise up and challenge its best mates for the EC. That's the reality of these shameful, disgusting, duplicitous "fair play" rules.
@ Robin (post 38) - The time for developing the club the hard way has been and gone. Man Utd and LFC established their global fanbases in the 1960s and 1970s with their European exploits, leaving us with mostly a regional fanbase to draw on.
What you're proposing is akin to inventing a wonderful new cola and then trying to snatch a slice of the action from Coca Cola and Pepsi on the basis of the quality of your product. It's never going to work. Not now. Not with the global market sewn up by the established elite European clubs.
No, the ONLY way is massive investment a la Manchester City. Life is too short to be hanging around waiting for the impossible to happen, so I say it is an indisputable imperative for us to obtain said investment.
What you're proposing is akin to inventing a wonderful new cola and then trying to snatch a slice of the action from Coca Cola and Pepsi on the basis of the quality of your product. It's never going to work. Not now. Not with the global market sewn up by the established elite European clubs.
No, the ONLY way is massive investment a la Manchester City. Life is too short to be hanging around waiting for the impossible to happen, so I say it is an indisputable imperative for us to obtain said investment.
I stopped reading it when you came up with how you would rather us get relegated etc than be like Man City.
Are you a match going blue Rob who pays his money? The reason I ask that is most match going blues don't enjoy the football and haven't for years; going to Goodison is a chore and how I and many felt leaving that ground last week was horrible, is that what its meant to be about?
How many City fans feel they wish they were back to the good ole days of winning sod all, getting beat most weeks and being ridiculed for years by their red neighbours who consider their real derby as a game against a team in red down the M62.
Coming out with that shout smacks of jealousy and sour grapes. If we became like them, I would throw a party and so would 99.9% of other match going blues. Football would become fun again, our kids could go to school without facing ridicule and anyone over 30 who supports us could possibly see something that is a long way off in their lives at present infact almost impossible and that is winning the league.
Tim Postma@ see if City fans are still laughing in ten years!
They will own a big brand new ground and trainig complex etc they are building for ten years time, they will have a fanbase that will probably double plus no doubt will have trebledd their trophy haul and if we don't get someone this thread is opposed to we may not be bloody here in ten years time.
They will own a big brand new ground and trainig complex etc they are building for ten years time, they will have a fanbase that will probably double plus no doubt will have trebledd their trophy haul and if we don't get someone this thread is opposed to we may not be bloody here in ten years time.
Sorry Robin but I consider a lot of this bollocks.
You say..
"I don't want that to change by Everton being bought by some foreign billionaire who wants to use our club as a vanity project"
So (presumably) it's better to have our club used as a vanity project by a home-grown, bullshitting idiot who doesn't have a pot to piss in and couldn't run a fucking bath.
You continue..
"When Stan Kroenke bought a majority share in Arsenal last season I think we became the only top 10 Premier League team that remained predominantly British owned. To me that's something to be proud of"
Really!?
Could you explain WHY that is a source of 'pride' for you?
Personally I couldn't give two fucks where our 'owners' are from if they know what they're doing.
As for..
"I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City" - I give up!
You say..
"I don't want that to change by Everton being bought by some foreign billionaire who wants to use our club as a vanity project"
So (presumably) it's better to have our club used as a vanity project by a home-grown, bullshitting idiot who doesn't have a pot to piss in and couldn't run a fucking bath.
You continue..
"When Stan Kroenke bought a majority share in Arsenal last season I think we became the only top 10 Premier League team that remained predominantly British owned. To me that's something to be proud of"
Really!?
Could you explain WHY that is a source of 'pride' for you?
Personally I couldn't give two fucks where our 'owners' are from if they know what they're doing.
As for..
"I would genuinely prefer to see us drop down the divisions than to see us become another Manchester City" - I give up!
As there is absolutely no prospect of Everton attracting a billionaire anytime soon, you need have no fears on that count. What we all fear is that our financial profile will fall so low that the banks will say `enough` and foreclose.
Personally, I will continue to pray that BK is able `to keep the show running` as long has he has managed with `Blood Brothers` until such time as a new `angel` emerges with a plan — and the money — to take us forward!
You need serious amounts of money (as well as a brain) to support the growth and maintenance of a successful business, especially whenever that business is a Premier League football club. You won't be able to name one successful club that doesn't have capital behind it.
That's the rather obvious point being missed by the author of this article.
That's the rather obvious point being missed by the author of this article.
When you think of our team - what do you think of first ?. Thinking about it and although I have commented sometimes (angrily and negatively) on BK, the business model, the stadium issue, when I am asked who I support, it is Everton, not BK, not even DM, that I spout on about.
I have supported them for 40 years, through the good and the bad and if asked, I can recall some, most (but not all) of the fuckwit decissions, the arsehole Managers, the incredibly stupid transfers, the lack of nouce by the "board" and the list goes on on on. But I think and waffle on about my great team.
We are in a spot of shit at the moment - to be honest I dont even think it is that bad - the figure 50 million being banded about, could be reduced dramatically by the end of the transfer window and I think and hope it will. But put in perspective the figure of 50 million !!!. A good cup run, playing in Europe for even a few matches - that's 20% (ish) knocked off. I say it all the time in answer to articals on all subjects (apologies) - if I do have a gripe which seems consistent through the 40 years of support, is that when we are doing well, we do not maximise that success in marketing ie getting new fans, decent sponsers etc, but yet again I digress.
My point - good, balanced artical, after we won last night, some of the doom and gllom has lifted (for how long, dont know), but next season, I can assure you, I will be supporting my team, whichever league we are in and in a few years this blip - shit as it is, will just be added to the rest of them.
Regards Richard Dodd's comment - why would a bank that is owed 50 million, close us down. I actually do not understand their (the banks) philosophy of reducing the loan - in fact, as part of running a business, I actually do not believe it - a different story though.
IN a few weeks / months, the views on the sites will have all changed for the better - maybe at the end of next week when the transfer window closes; you never know.
Keep the faith, IEWT, that would be "Everton"
I have supported them for 40 years, through the good and the bad and if asked, I can recall some, most (but not all) of the fuckwit decissions, the arsehole Managers, the incredibly stupid transfers, the lack of nouce by the "board" and the list goes on on on. But I think and waffle on about my great team.
We are in a spot of shit at the moment - to be honest I dont even think it is that bad - the figure 50 million being banded about, could be reduced dramatically by the end of the transfer window and I think and hope it will. But put in perspective the figure of 50 million !!!. A good cup run, playing in Europe for even a few matches - that's 20% (ish) knocked off. I say it all the time in answer to articals on all subjects (apologies) - if I do have a gripe which seems consistent through the 40 years of support, is that when we are doing well, we do not maximise that success in marketing ie getting new fans, decent sponsers etc, but yet again I digress.
My point - good, balanced artical, after we won last night, some of the doom and gllom has lifted (for how long, dont know), but next season, I can assure you, I will be supporting my team, whichever league we are in and in a few years this blip - shit as it is, will just be added to the rest of them.
Regards Richard Dodd's comment - why would a bank that is owed 50 million, close us down. I actually do not understand their (the banks) philosophy of reducing the loan - in fact, as part of running a business, I actually do not believe it - a different story though.
IN a few weeks / months, the views on the sites will have all changed for the better - maybe at the end of next week when the transfer window closes; you never know.
Keep the faith, IEWT, that would be "Everton"
Jeff (#2) you say "in 20 years we will look back and say it wasnt Kenwright and Everton that sealed Everton's fate-- it was Russian Kleptocrats, Middle Eastern Oil Magnates and American Private Equity Barons, who didnt pick Everton as their toy."
I could agree more with you mate, other than to say I'm already saying that, now.
I could agree more with you mate, other than to say I'm already saying that, now.
Both sides iof this argument are correct. I would love us to stay true to our roots — I would also love to be in City's position. Let's stop slagging each other and other Evertonians.
The club needs to be run properly and with a business plan. Other clubs have greater debt — so where is the problem? — Only the bank can answer that one.
However, we must continue to invest otherwise we will lose players eventually, including Barkley.
The club needs to be run properly and with a business plan. Other clubs have greater debt — so where is the problem? — Only the bank can answer that one.
However, we must continue to invest otherwise we will lose players eventually, including Barkley.
Jay Woods, I am many things but naive isn't one of them.
The 'Champions League' is a competition I have little time for, I agree to a certain extent with your point but I have no problem with the biggest clubs winning the biggest prizes as thats the way of the world.
My issue is with clubs selling their soul and using richs (which are obtained in shady ways and with the usage of slave labour to boot) to push themselves into the elite group when to be frank the size of their club means the only way they should get there is by good management and a good youth system.
I admired Man City much more when they were producing their own (Richards, Johnson, Ireland, Sturridge etc) then i do now when they spend money they wouldn't have if you took the money the club brings through NATURAL means. Don't you think its false at all? plastic? is success that way really something to enjoy? or are you one of these who wants success at all costs? even if the money used has been earned by violating human rights?
I despair! As I said, the Premier League is bust, I don't have the passion for it as I did when I first became a fan (late 80s early 90s) I mean the last decent World Cup was 1986!!!
Maybe I'm just too idealistic for your taste, but give me the Everton I have now rather than the Man City model ANYDAY! (And yes, the Everton of today frustrate me but mainly because the manager is too negative for my taste.)
The 'Champions League' is a competition I have little time for, I agree to a certain extent with your point but I have no problem with the biggest clubs winning the biggest prizes as thats the way of the world.
My issue is with clubs selling their soul and using richs (which are obtained in shady ways and with the usage of slave labour to boot) to push themselves into the elite group when to be frank the size of their club means the only way they should get there is by good management and a good youth system.
I admired Man City much more when they were producing their own (Richards, Johnson, Ireland, Sturridge etc) then i do now when they spend money they wouldn't have if you took the money the club brings through NATURAL means. Don't you think its false at all? plastic? is success that way really something to enjoy? or are you one of these who wants success at all costs? even if the money used has been earned by violating human rights?
I despair! As I said, the Premier League is bust, I don't have the passion for it as I did when I first became a fan (late 80s early 90s) I mean the last decent World Cup was 1986!!!
Maybe I'm just too idealistic for your taste, but give me the Everton I have now rather than the Man City model ANYDAY! (And yes, the Everton of today frustrate me but mainly because the manager is too negative for my taste.)
Robert, that frankly is as mis-guided a column as I have ever read. To claim we are not a "vanity project" with Bill Kenwright of "the boys pen" fame in charge is frankly laughable.
Kenwright refuses to release his "toy" from his desperately clasped hands to the clear detriment to our club's future. To claim billionaires are all idiots with no wish to make money and are also incapable of forming a business plan is again laughable — they didn't become billionaires by accident you see!
You also state that you do not wish to become "just another club" — well I think you will find the lack of interest in us from potential buyers, media outlets and international football fans shows that we have become just that .... nothing special about being skint, going backwards whilst living in a dilapidated, crumbling wreck of a stadium. Wake up man and smell the coffee!!
Ask if you would be pissed as a fart dancing around the place naked if we won the league with a benefactor's billions or sitting dejected in the corner of a pub moaning that "It's a hollow victory.... it means nothing" — I would guess that I know what the vast majority would answer.
Tony, summed it up there perfectly.
Also, how many of us harp on with old pride of the days we were the Mersey Millionaires? It wasn't as obscene as now but we were on a different planet to most teams then and a large part of it was down to cash.
Read Jimmy Armfield in last night's programme, he explains why he basically shit himself about getting offered to come to us, as we where just too big for him; he was in John Moores's house gobsmacked by how superb it was, full of rich paintings etc and when we hear these stories we burst with pride, but it was us and them in those days, just like it is them and us now.
@Grant(52) - but I'm not claiming that at all. There's nothing in my article that says I don't want us to be sold, that says I don't believe we're BK's vanity project. There's *nothing* in what I wrote that supports the current BK regime. Nor do I claim that all billionaires are idiots.
More that the focus on "we need a billionaire" is misleading, because we don't. The Manchester City model is different because their billionaires haven't actually needed to demonstrate strong business savvy in the past, and because of their unique situation, have no need to worry about a solid business plan (because even if *all* the money they invest in City just disappears, it's a miniscule fraction of their fortune).
@Tony(53) - You don't think it would mean less, though?
More that the focus on "we need a billionaire" is misleading, because we don't. The Manchester City model is different because their billionaires haven't actually needed to demonstrate strong business savvy in the past, and because of their unique situation, have no need to worry about a solid business plan (because even if *all* the money they invest in City just disappears, it's a miniscule fraction of their fortune).
@Tony(53) - You don't think it would mean less, though?
Robin - apologies if I mis-represent your view. everyone (of sane mind) agrees Kenwright must gone, the new owners need to have some wealth (not neccesary as well as unlukley to be billionaires, I agree), that the club is being mis-managed on our current budget and that action needs to be happen quick, Your column seems a variation of the theme "be careful what you wish for". It would be lovely to not have to rely on millions but sadly modern football demands it .... simply look at the turnover of madrid, Man utd, and Barcalona and you quickly realise that to even get close to competing massive investment is required.
@Grant - No worries. One of the most depressing things about the whole thing is that anyone would need to state "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we could be run as a business with basic competence?" rather than that being a given.
To long term get close to competing then yes, we need investment. I'm not sure how massive it would need to be. From a team standpoint, just think about how muh difference it would have made to have had, say, an extra 5-10 million each close season for the last few years, not reliant on player sales? We're incredibly lucky in a sense that we've got a far better first team squad than our financial position might suggest, but the lack of funding has meant we've missed every single opportunity to "kick on" from periods of relative success (whether finishing 4th, having an amazing run at the end of a season, reaching the cup final).
You definitely hit on a key point about the turnover of Madrid, Man Utd and Barcelona. Ultimately, teams turnover and revenue generation is, to me, a better measure of their likelihood for long term success than money that's gifted to them. Turnover, wages to revenue ratios, developing commercial income all point to a better long term model. That would *definitely* benefit from solid investment, but I want any investor to develop a solid business model, not build a pretty castle on a foundation of sand.
That's why I don't want a City type model (and really, Chelsea and Man City are the two examples of vanity project teams); their wage bill alone last year exceeded their turnover. That's an unsustainable model. Nor does the Chelsea example suggest that it's something that will get better. Abramovich bought Chelsea eight years ago, their wage bill is still in excess of 80% of their revenue, and they made a pre-tax loss of £78million last year. That's *after* he's dumped nearly £800 million into the team. What happens to Chelsea when he gets bored? Effectively, both City and Chelsea can only continue existing because of a single wealthy individual.
To long term get close to competing then yes, we need investment. I'm not sure how massive it would need to be. From a team standpoint, just think about how muh difference it would have made to have had, say, an extra 5-10 million each close season for the last few years, not reliant on player sales? We're incredibly lucky in a sense that we've got a far better first team squad than our financial position might suggest, but the lack of funding has meant we've missed every single opportunity to "kick on" from periods of relative success (whether finishing 4th, having an amazing run at the end of a season, reaching the cup final).
You definitely hit on a key point about the turnover of Madrid, Man Utd and Barcelona. Ultimately, teams turnover and revenue generation is, to me, a better measure of their likelihood for long term success than money that's gifted to them. Turnover, wages to revenue ratios, developing commercial income all point to a better long term model. That would *definitely* benefit from solid investment, but I want any investor to develop a solid business model, not build a pretty castle on a foundation of sand.
That's why I don't want a City type model (and really, Chelsea and Man City are the two examples of vanity project teams); their wage bill alone last year exceeded their turnover. That's an unsustainable model. Nor does the Chelsea example suggest that it's something that will get better. Abramovich bought Chelsea eight years ago, their wage bill is still in excess of 80% of their revenue, and they made a pre-tax loss of £78million last year. That's *after* he's dumped nearly £800 million into the team. What happens to Chelsea when he gets bored? Effectively, both City and Chelsea can only continue existing because of a single wealthy individual.
@ Marcus Kendall (post 52): You have no problem with the big clubs winning the European Cup? And it doesn't bother you that we can never join their ranks and win it too? You're content to be forever in Liverpool's shadow, are you?
Maybe I'm the naive one here... But does our history mean anything to you? Were you around when we were feted by many as the best side in Europe? Or are you one of the younger generation who thinks coming 7th every year is a major success and something we can be proud of?
Maybe I'm the naive one here... But does our history mean anything to you? Were you around when we were feted by many as the best side in Europe? Or are you one of the younger generation who thinks coming 7th every year is a major success and something we can be proud of?
@ Robin (58): I'll reiterate this. The established elite have huge incomes because they have global fanbases. They have global fanbases because they won big things (like the European Cup) at a time when the TV-oriented market was still in its infancy, while some of us were sitting around being preachy about doing things "the Everton way". As investment managers say, those clubs were "first to market". There is therefore NO WAY ON EARTH that we can muscle in on their kind of revenue streams just through careful planning, etc.
I passionately, desperately want us to win the EC in my lifetime, even more so given that the chance was so unjustly denied us back in our prime. And the only way to do that is through massive investment.
You cite Chelsea and Man City as being sustained by wealthy benefactors. I see no moral imperative existing against that setup; if their owners walk away, they go back to mediocrity. So what? If their owners hang in there, they win major trophies and if they stay long enough, they start to claim their own share of the global market. What's so wrong about that?
Seriously, there is a major media campaign against what City and Chelsea are doing and it's backed to the hilt by the established elite and their mates in the press. So it really depresses me when our lot fall for it and start arguing a case that is (a) detrimental to EFC's long-term interests and (b) conducive the continuation of the hateful status quo. And that's your grand error, Robin.
I passionately, desperately want us to win the EC in my lifetime, even more so given that the chance was so unjustly denied us back in our prime. And the only way to do that is through massive investment.
You cite Chelsea and Man City as being sustained by wealthy benefactors. I see no moral imperative existing against that setup; if their owners walk away, they go back to mediocrity. So what? If their owners hang in there, they win major trophies and if they stay long enough, they start to claim their own share of the global market. What's so wrong about that?
Seriously, there is a major media campaign against what City and Chelsea are doing and it's backed to the hilt by the established elite and their mates in the press. So it really depresses me when our lot fall for it and start arguing a case that is (a) detrimental to EFC's long-term interests and (b) conducive the continuation of the hateful status quo. And that's your grand error, Robin.
There's no moral imperative, to be sure. Very few morals in football at all. I find it personally distasteful, and it puts me off the Premier League in general. Yes, money has always been an important part of success, but the differences are far more significant these days; what is it, Manchester City have spent as much as the rest of the Premier League *combined* in the last two years.
Those clubs don't go back to mediocrity if their owners walk away. They go bankrupt. They've been set up as an entirely unsustainable model, with massively increased costs supported only by a generous benefactor. Those costs don't go down if the benefactor leaves. And, as I pointed out above, eight years into the Abramovich era and Chelsea's model is still massively unsustainable, despite them winning major trophies, and there's no real sign of them having a major impact on the global market.
I don't see why a desire for solid business practice and developing a sustainable long term model for success is either "detrimental to our long term interests" or "conducive to the status quo". I believe it's the opposite.
Those clubs don't go back to mediocrity if their owners walk away. They go bankrupt. They've been set up as an entirely unsustainable model, with massively increased costs supported only by a generous benefactor. Those costs don't go down if the benefactor leaves. And, as I pointed out above, eight years into the Abramovich era and Chelsea's model is still massively unsustainable, despite them winning major trophies, and there's no real sign of them having a major impact on the global market.
I don't see why a desire for solid business practice and developing a sustainable long term model for success is either "detrimental to our long term interests" or "conducive to the status quo". I believe it's the opposite.
Jay Woods, no I was around in the 80's, I know what success is and yes obviously I want Everton to be successful. But at all costs? No thanks. If we turned into a Man City model I'd cease to support the club because I disagree strongly against it. Your more than welcome to back it if it ever happens and enjoy the ride, each to their own as they say.
I don't take football as seriously as you seem too, being in Liverpools shadow and all that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Aslong as Everton represent something I can be proud of (and they do) I can handle the fact that were not as big as the likes of Liverpool, Man Utd etc because really it doesn't matter unless you use your football club as some status symbol to make you feel superior to others.
And yes clubs with the fanbase size Of Barca, Bayern, Real, Man Utd etc should always be better than the likes of ourselves, Man City, Chelsea etc, but as in the olden days if a smaller club is managed well then that gives them the right to compete at the top table. This is where I agree with your point because with how the game has gone now you have to sell your soul to compete and thats why modern football leaves me cold and all together less passionate because the game in this country is RUINED
I don't take football as seriously as you seem too, being in Liverpools shadow and all that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Aslong as Everton represent something I can be proud of (and they do) I can handle the fact that were not as big as the likes of Liverpool, Man Utd etc because really it doesn't matter unless you use your football club as some status symbol to make you feel superior to others.
And yes clubs with the fanbase size Of Barca, Bayern, Real, Man Utd etc should always be better than the likes of ourselves, Man City, Chelsea etc, but as in the olden days if a smaller club is managed well then that gives them the right to compete at the top table. This is where I agree with your point because with how the game has gone now you have to sell your soul to compete and thats why modern football leaves me cold and all together less passionate because the game in this country is RUINED
Robin, I've already explained why we cannot have an idealised "sustainable model" this side of prolonged investment-fuelled success. The customer base isn't there; it's already committed to buying merchandise from Man Utd, Liverpool, et al. This is the colossal reality you must address when contemplating innovations in "solid business practice".
@ Marcus: Seriously, you disgust me with your "we should know our place" mentality. Enjoying wealth from investors = selling a club's soul? Claptrap! That's just media spin from the Man Utd / LFC loving pundits who are living in terror of the status quo being altered..
Marcus, being in Liverpools shadow living on Merseyside bothers me and many more, I walked in today and some armchair red had the new picture going around these waters with our badge and some attic sale or something, we are thick skinned and can take it well, but deep down I want it back what we had in those good years.
Well done Robin. I thought I was in a minority of one over this!
No Foreign owners or English ones for that matter on an ego trip.
They range from Russian Oligarchs to Indian Chicken Farmers. All have one thing in common a lack of knowledge about their clubs pre 1992. And as for those proles called fans.
Hey how about someone like Sir Terry Leahy. An Evertonian and a superb businessman?
No Foreign owners or English ones for that matter on an ego trip.
They range from Russian Oligarchs to Indian Chicken Farmers. All have one thing in common a lack of knowledge about their clubs pre 1992. And as for those proles called fans.
Hey how about someone like Sir Terry Leahy. An Evertonian and a superb businessman?
Now you're accusing me of following media spin! Haha... the media spout crap constantly so I hardly pay attention to their view.
Spending money our club can't naturally make through its normal turnover is SELLING OUT, how else would you describe it? If you can't see how plastic and false the likes of Man City/Chelsea are then I really do despair.
And to the other poster, why does it matter what an armchair Liverpool says? Does it matter if they come across boastful? Is football really that important that they actually make you feel smaller because they support a more successful club? Aren't you proud of Everton and the fact that our debts are nothing compared to the vast majority of the Premier League? Aren't you proud that we produce our own players, if we were a billionaire plaything then Barkley wouldn't get much of a look-in, for example.
Only change I'd make is for a more progressive manager (Poyet) and a new owner who can build us sustainably as the original poster was pointing out.
Spending money our club can't naturally make through its normal turnover is SELLING OUT, how else would you describe it? If you can't see how plastic and false the likes of Man City/Chelsea are then I really do despair.
And to the other poster, why does it matter what an armchair Liverpool says? Does it matter if they come across boastful? Is football really that important that they actually make you feel smaller because they support a more successful club? Aren't you proud of Everton and the fact that our debts are nothing compared to the vast majority of the Premier League? Aren't you proud that we produce our own players, if we were a billionaire plaything then Barkley wouldn't get much of a look-in, for example.
Only change I'd make is for a more progressive manager (Poyet) and a new owner who can build us sustainably as the original poster was pointing out.
I don't believe it! I find it diificult to fathom when someone says "I don't want a billionnaire to come and sully our good reputation"
Let us then just wither away as we're doing now. If this is an example of a well run club then I'll have a pint of what you're on. How is it that we donj't wan't a billionnaire?? for fucks sake! We'll be putting coats down in stanley park and playing pudd'n and beef footy before long, if this sorry crew continue their godawful misrule of our club.
In his day, Sir John Moores was considered super rich and we were the chwecque book kings. I found nowt wrong in that whatsoever. I only wish he'd come back, reincarnated as an Indian Steel Magnate, or a mega rich sheik. Not everyone with money, is going to just "use it as a vanity exercise" We've got a skint bloody bactor doin that now. Beam me up scotty!
Let us then just wither away as we're doing now. If this is an example of a well run club then I'll have a pint of what you're on. How is it that we donj't wan't a billionnaire?? for fucks sake! We'll be putting coats down in stanley park and playing pudd'n and beef footy before long, if this sorry crew continue their godawful misrule of our club.
In his day, Sir John Moores was considered super rich and we were the chwecque book kings. I found nowt wrong in that whatsoever. I only wish he'd come back, reincarnated as an Indian Steel Magnate, or a mega rich sheik. Not everyone with money, is going to just "use it as a vanity exercise" We've got a skint bloody bactor doin that now. Beam me up scotty!
A very rich Evertonian, rich enough to pour money into the pit of a premier football club would be perfect.
After that, a rich benefactor ,non Evertonian, willing to do likewise would be fine.
How about in the absence of the above a moderately wealthy owner with sound business acumen and a plan to turn things around.
I could list a few other options but nowhere would there be a place for a cash strapped owner, Evertonian or not. with no business sense, no plan and deluded enough to believe that only he can see the club through these times.
After that, a rich benefactor ,non Evertonian, willing to do likewise would be fine.
How about in the absence of the above a moderately wealthy owner with sound business acumen and a plan to turn things around.
I could list a few other options but nowhere would there be a place for a cash strapped owner, Evertonian or not. with no business sense, no plan and deluded enough to believe that only he can see the club through these times.
Marcus, how many City or Chelsea fans are wringing their hands in despair? A tiny minority, that's for sure. And you're persisting with a mentality that serves only the established elite and harms our long-term interests. But you really said it all when you accepted that we are at our proper level, in comparison to the likes of LFC.
I don't know, I don't care how many of their fans are enjoying the financial doping their clubs are participating in.
Nothing wrong with my mentality, football has its pecking order as does any other business, to get to the top for a smaller club should be about good management, a sound youth system and a good training ground, not getting money from someone who has absolutely no links to the club yet alone country and using tainted money (I notice you don't seem to care that these riches were earnt in part by use of dodgy meausres and human rights violations) I guess aslong as Everton are successful we can forget about the slave labourers etc huh?
I hate Liverpool as much as the next Evertonian but I except that their fan base and size will always be superior to ours (even with a billionaire sugar daddy they'll still be the bigger club) I hope that with good managementa a good youth set up and a good training ground we can bridge the gap and compete and by and large we've closed the gap to them over the last few seasons. I feel with a better manager (Poyet) we could bridge the gap even more because I don't think Liverpool even with the money spent there are any great shakes (Suarez apart)
As I said you can have your mentality and I respect that, I just couldn't stomach an Everton giving players a wage of £250'000 a week, its simply outrageous and not sustainable (financial doping and cheating also)
Nothing wrong with my mentality, football has its pecking order as does any other business, to get to the top for a smaller club should be about good management, a sound youth system and a good training ground, not getting money from someone who has absolutely no links to the club yet alone country and using tainted money (I notice you don't seem to care that these riches were earnt in part by use of dodgy meausres and human rights violations) I guess aslong as Everton are successful we can forget about the slave labourers etc huh?
I hate Liverpool as much as the next Evertonian but I except that their fan base and size will always be superior to ours (even with a billionaire sugar daddy they'll still be the bigger club) I hope that with good managementa a good youth set up and a good training ground we can bridge the gap and compete and by and large we've closed the gap to them over the last few seasons. I feel with a better manager (Poyet) we could bridge the gap even more because I don't think Liverpool even with the money spent there are any great shakes (Suarez apart)
As I said you can have your mentality and I respect that, I just couldn't stomach an Everton giving players a wage of £250'000 a week, its simply outrageous and not sustainable (financial doping and cheating also)
Eugene I laughed my arse off regarding your narrative of Kenwright ! Do you reckon he gets in bed with his everton pj's on kisses Jenny and says the immortal words at being the Everton chairman 'back of the net'
Mr Kendal. Please stop using emotive clap trap and casual racism to justify your tin pot argument. If i hear you generalise on rich owners as being human rights violators one more time I might rip my eyes out. Have a bit of sense.
Marcus, thank fuck Everton have never taken money from a filthy rich business man with no scruples about utilising slave labour, eh?
'Revealed: Top Shop clothes made with 'slave labour'
"ONE of Britain’s richest men is profiting from Asian workers paid less than £4 a day to make clothes for his latest Kate Moss range for Topshop.
Factories supplying Sir Philip Green, who is based in Monaco and is worth nearly £5 billion, employ hundreds of Sri Lankan, Indian and Bangladeshi workers in Mauritius where they labour for up to 12 hours a day, six days a week.
Workers told The Sunday Times that they were recruited in their home countries by self-employed agents who promised wages up to five times what they receive. They pay up to £725 to get the job, equivalent to seven months’ earnings.
Once in Mauritius they receive as little as 22p to 40p an hour..."
'Revealed: Top Shop clothes made with 'slave labour'
"ONE of Britain’s richest men is profiting from Asian workers paid less than £4 a day to make clothes for his latest Kate Moss range for Topshop.
Factories supplying Sir Philip Green, who is based in Monaco and is worth nearly £5 billion, employ hundreds of Sri Lankan, Indian and Bangladeshi workers in Mauritius where they labour for up to 12 hours a day, six days a week.
Workers told The Sunday Times that they were recruited in their home countries by self-employed agents who promised wages up to five times what they receive. They pay up to £725 to get the job, equivalent to seven months’ earnings.
Once in Mauritius they receive as little as 22p to 40p an hour..."
Dear christ how many tinpot-fixated fucking glory hunters do we have as fans these days? This is sickening...why do some of you even support the club if you are willing to entertain the City model for us?
There is nothing recogniseable as Man City these days. There is no pride in development of players... there's nothing City IN the players in that squad. It'd tear my heart out to see us relegated but it would mean nothing to me to see a squad of galacticos brought in, paying lip service to the fans and club history, lifting an FA Cup.
I know City fans who saw their club captain lift that trophy who felt the same. I've seen them disgusted at the way Tevez and Balotelli have sneered at them and their home. They tend to be the old Maine Roaders not the new glory hunters who've appeared with the riches though. Something to think about for some of you.
There is nothing recogniseable as Man City these days. There is no pride in development of players... there's nothing City IN the players in that squad. It'd tear my heart out to see us relegated but it would mean nothing to me to see a squad of galacticos brought in, paying lip service to the fans and club history, lifting an FA Cup.
I know City fans who saw their club captain lift that trophy who felt the same. I've seen them disgusted at the way Tevez and Balotelli have sneered at them and their home. They tend to be the old Maine Roaders not the new glory hunters who've appeared with the riches though. Something to think about for some of you.
Steve, are you suggesting that those who who are unhappy with a chairman who has lived the dream on the cheap for years are"tinpot-fixated glory hunters"?
Never mind dreams of billionaires, how about a chairman and coach who have the first clue?
Never mind dreams of billionaires, how about a chairman and coach who have the first clue?
Andy this has got fuck all to do with anything other than Evertonians who would turn a blind eye to the sneering shits like Tevez and Balotelli looking down their noses at them and their city just to get a trophy or two.
This is nothing to do with Kenwright, the board or anyone else. This is to do with pride and how cheaply some on here seem willing to sell theirs off for. Fucking disgusting.
This is nothing to do with Kenwright, the board or anyone else. This is to do with pride and how cheaply some on here seem willing to sell theirs off for. Fucking disgusting.
Sneering you say. You mean, like making a comment about 'real fans'? Heal thyself.
Steve, I agree with you totally about Tevez and Balotelli. I have many reservations about David Moyes but he wouldn't tolerate either of them. Would you change your views if we had loads of money and Moyes rather than Mancini? If , say we had enough money and will to make a stand and consign scum like Balotelli to the reserves for the rest of his contract?
Andy thats a hypothetical isnt it....the problem is that spending big brings demands from the authority bankrolling the spend. Moyes could well need the results that a Tevez or Balotelli could deliver on the pitch or he does a Hughes....tough call that one.
Not really the point I'm making though. I'm talking about the willingness of some Evertonians to accept that treatment to grab a bit of glory.
Ciaran are you seriously equating Nevilles comments that 'real fans' support a club through thick and thin with what Balotelli and Tevez said about the city their clubs fans live and raise their families in?. You think thats level pegging do you?.
Not really the point I'm making though. I'm talking about the willingness of some Evertonians to accept that treatment to grab a bit of glory.
Ciaran are you seriously equating Nevilles comments that 'real fans' support a club through thick and thin with what Balotelli and Tevez said about the city their clubs fans live and raise their families in?. You think thats level pegging do you?.
I think it's typical of the way footballers behave. You appear to be of the opinion that petulant footballers only appear with a sheikh or an oil baron. They don't. They're inherent in every club, and if you don.t think we've our fair share then your burying your head in the sand. Your also being quite disingenuous by singling out those players as the ultimate result of having a rich benefactor. Why not use Silva, or Aguero, or Toure? Because being balanced doesn't serve your argument well? And by the way, i'd kill for a Ballotelli right now. You know why? Because we don.t employ them for their social commentary. And yes, I do find it far more insulting when my club captain questions my loyalty to this club - far more insulting than some child making an inane comment about the number of restaurants in a city.
I guess man managing expensive signings is a little different to managing frees and loans.Yes lets all stick with Billy Liar and carry on doing things the Everton way.
Ciaran you are doing it again! Justifying the disrespect shown by players who have absolutely no desire to be with a club other than for obscene, by Prem standards, salaries. Accuse me of naivete if you want but I see a lot more players coming to Everton for career development than for the lavish salaries.
Nevilles comments you can deliberately spin to suit your agenda all you like but essentially it was a call to get behind the team. What was said by the City players was essentially 'Your home is shit' to their fans. No Everton player I can recall has ever been that disrespectful to us. You'd have that arrogant tosser in the team and sing his name when he's slagging you off?. Honestly?
Nevilles comments you can deliberately spin to suit your agenda all you like but essentially it was a call to get behind the team. What was said by the City players was essentially 'Your home is shit' to their fans. No Everton player I can recall has ever been that disrespectful to us. You'd have that arrogant tosser in the team and sing his name when he's slagging you off?. Honestly?
Andrew put the Kenwright bone down for a second and realise what is being talked about here. The City model of throwing massive salaries at players who would otherwise not give the club a sideways glance is the issue.
Fans here seem to think that's something to be embraced and any condescension that comes from those mercenary players is just the price of doing business these days.What do you think? What's the price on your pride?. An FA cup? A league title?
Fans here seem to think that's something to be embraced and any condescension that comes from those mercenary players is just the price of doing business these days.What do you think? What's the price on your pride?. An FA cup? A league title?
I've just been provided with a new business plan suggestion for us. How's this?
Grab the pds 28million from Wenger for Jags and Arteta and pay it off the loans. Replace them with loan players if necessary.
Accept 10th to 12th position this year. We've got the player base to stay in PL.
Use the pds2.5 million of interest saved to pay off the board member who don't contribute anything to the business. Earnestly seek someone with serious money - NO Chelski and Man Shitty types though.
Sound base from which to rebuild - Keep our own pedigree - buy and sell sensibly - back in to the top four within the next 3 years.
I was just thinking, "wouldn't this be great?" and then.................. the bleedin' alarm went off!!
Grab the pds 28million from Wenger for Jags and Arteta and pay it off the loans. Replace them with loan players if necessary.
Accept 10th to 12th position this year. We've got the player base to stay in PL.
Use the pds2.5 million of interest saved to pay off the board member who don't contribute anything to the business. Earnestly seek someone with serious money - NO Chelski and Man Shitty types though.
Sound base from which to rebuild - Keep our own pedigree - buy and sell sensibly - back in to the top four within the next 3 years.
I was just thinking, "wouldn't this be great?" and then.................. the bleedin' alarm went off!!
Steve, we have a current CEO that went on record calling Goodison Park a shithole, is that good enough? Do you know any Everton players that live in Walton?
Everton in the 60s did just what Man City are doing now, we could buy anyone and pay them over the odds in comparison to our competitors, the rich will always do that, the divide today is just bigger.
A lot of people sound like they are disgusted by the whole idea of money yet I can guarantee not one person here works for fuck all.
Everton in the 60s did just what Man City are doing now, we could buy anyone and pay them over the odds in comparison to our competitors, the rich will always do that, the divide today is just bigger.
A lot of people sound like they are disgusted by the whole idea of money yet I can guarantee not one person here works for fuck all.
Gavin,
I dont know how far we can beat ourselves up on the Mersey Millionaires thing because the magnitude of the salaries is out of all proportion now, compared to then, thanks to Sky.
The advantage we enjoyed owing to the resources we had access to was proportionately less than what the money buys now. As witnessed by the fact that we actually only won titles at either end of the 60's and were sort of there or thereabouts the rest of the decade.
I dont know how far we can beat ourselves up on the Mersey Millionaires thing because the magnitude of the salaries is out of all proportion now, compared to then, thanks to Sky.
The advantage we enjoyed owing to the resources we had access to was proportionately less than what the money buys now. As witnessed by the fact that we actually only won titles at either end of the 60's and were sort of there or thereabouts the rest of the decade.
Bob,
It's just occurred to me (after meditating on my back and forther with Robbie earlier on) that there could actually be a plan..
Everton, as we all know are borrowed up to their eyeballs. I am given to understand the nature of the loans/mortgages are such that they can't be paid back early and thus are in this predicament for various 25 year spells putting us in a position where we are completely unattractive for an ambitious investor.
Could it be that Everton's plan is to get into a position where our only saleable assets are on the pitch (phase 1 complete) so the bank's only chance of being repaid is by taking lump sums off the mortgage.
In other words we are forcing them to reduce the term of the debt by not having the means to pay it back from our operating revenues, thus more quickly making ourselves viable again to investors - sounds a bit mad but if you inherited the financial situation that the current board did, what other options would you have?
It's just occurred to me (after meditating on my back and forther with Robbie earlier on) that there could actually be a plan..
Everton, as we all know are borrowed up to their eyeballs. I am given to understand the nature of the loans/mortgages are such that they can't be paid back early and thus are in this predicament for various 25 year spells putting us in a position where we are completely unattractive for an ambitious investor.
Could it be that Everton's plan is to get into a position where our only saleable assets are on the pitch (phase 1 complete) so the bank's only chance of being repaid is by taking lump sums off the mortgage.
In other words we are forcing them to reduce the term of the debt by not having the means to pay it back from our operating revenues, thus more quickly making ourselves viable again to investors - sounds a bit mad but if you inherited the financial situation that the current board did, what other options would you have?
Sorry Steve Jones, but your response requires a detailed response.
You say
"Ciaran you are doing it again! Justifying the disrespect shown by players who have absolutely no desire to be with a club other than for obscene, by Prem standards, salaries"
Really, REALLY?
For me to be reapeating something, I actually had to have to done it in the first place.
At no stage did I justify anyones behaviour.
Comparing Balotelli's behaviour with the behaviour of our own players (e.g Nevilles disgusting comment) is not, I repeat - IS NOT - a Justification. Nowhere did I say, 'Balotelli's behaviour is Ok, because....blah, blah blah'. What I actually did was - compare. Where i'm from we even have a slang term for it - it's called 'whataboutery'.
It's a term used in polictical discoure to highlight that your position on some kind of behaviour is fatally flawed, given your acceptance of the same behaviour in a different context.
i.e you thinking our players are a great bunch of lads, while everyone else is the devil's spawn.
As for your apparent knowledge of the motives Man City players?
Interesting.
Care to enlightening us on how you know what their motives are for joining a particular club?
Or if that's too hard, maybe you could explain how you know that the motives of our players are any different
I was under the impression (possibly far wide of the mark) that players went to the the clubs which paid them the most (just like our very own Pienaar refusing Chelsea).
But of course I must be wrong, Because our players are above that kind of behaviour!
You then try and justify (yes, justify) your position on Balotelli et al, with the following..
"Accuse me of naivete if you want but I see a lot more players coming to Everton for career development than for the lavish salaries. "
'YOU SEE'?
Ok, you asked for it - You're Naive!
You don't 'SEE' anything - you are presuming. I presumption which I can only guess is based on hot air.
So let's look at these 'lavish' salaries and ...er...'career development.
At what stage does a salary fit into your definition of 'Lavish'? Obviously 40, 50 or even 75 K a week doesn't cut it....mere pigeon feed.
I'm also interest in your definition of 'career development'?
Because our players are certainly not coming here to win trophies - you know, what Balotelli & co. are doing, and will no doubt continue to do?
SO could you explain what this 'career development' is? the career development that our integrity driven, low paid careerists are coming to Goodison Park for?
Finally, you say this..
"Nevilles comments you can deliberately spin to suit your agenda all you like but essentially it was a call to get behind the team."
Brilliant, you're accusing me of putting spin on Neville's words, by, er...putting your own rather interpretative spin on them.
Usually when I see the word 'essentially' alarm bells ring. It's usually accompanied by slight of hand.
Nevilles comments were an affront, and a disgrace - and I don't need to spin it - the words are very, VERY clear.
It was a comment that went to the heart of legitimate protest and dissent, and one which has gravity which I doubt his limited intellect understands.
Much, MUCH worse than some comment by a teenager about the number of McDonalds in a city.
If you think having someone put money into the club to develop a decent infrastructure and bring a bit of long overdue success to this club is the work of satan, then fair enough.
But at least try and use some sensible arguments to back up that opinion (if there are any).
Your current line of reasoning reminds me of that Harry Enfield character..."Is that what you want, IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT....cos, THATS WHAT'LL HAPPEN"...
You say
"Ciaran you are doing it again! Justifying the disrespect shown by players who have absolutely no desire to be with a club other than for obscene, by Prem standards, salaries"
Really, REALLY?
For me to be reapeating something, I actually had to have to done it in the first place.
At no stage did I justify anyones behaviour.
Comparing Balotelli's behaviour with the behaviour of our own players (e.g Nevilles disgusting comment) is not, I repeat - IS NOT - a Justification. Nowhere did I say, 'Balotelli's behaviour is Ok, because....blah, blah blah'. What I actually did was - compare. Where i'm from we even have a slang term for it - it's called 'whataboutery'.
It's a term used in polictical discoure to highlight that your position on some kind of behaviour is fatally flawed, given your acceptance of the same behaviour in a different context.
i.e you thinking our players are a great bunch of lads, while everyone else is the devil's spawn.
As for your apparent knowledge of the motives Man City players?
Interesting.
Care to enlightening us on how you know what their motives are for joining a particular club?
Or if that's too hard, maybe you could explain how you know that the motives of our players are any different
I was under the impression (possibly far wide of the mark) that players went to the the clubs which paid them the most (just like our very own Pienaar refusing Chelsea).
But of course I must be wrong, Because our players are above that kind of behaviour!
You then try and justify (yes, justify) your position on Balotelli et al, with the following..
"Accuse me of naivete if you want but I see a lot more players coming to Everton for career development than for the lavish salaries. "
'YOU SEE'?
Ok, you asked for it - You're Naive!
You don't 'SEE' anything - you are presuming. I presumption which I can only guess is based on hot air.
So let's look at these 'lavish' salaries and ...er...'career development.
At what stage does a salary fit into your definition of 'Lavish'? Obviously 40, 50 or even 75 K a week doesn't cut it....mere pigeon feed.
I'm also interest in your definition of 'career development'?
Because our players are certainly not coming here to win trophies - you know, what Balotelli & co. are doing, and will no doubt continue to do?
SO could you explain what this 'career development' is? the career development that our integrity driven, low paid careerists are coming to Goodison Park for?
Finally, you say this..
"Nevilles comments you can deliberately spin to suit your agenda all you like but essentially it was a call to get behind the team."
Brilliant, you're accusing me of putting spin on Neville's words, by, er...putting your own rather interpretative spin on them.
Usually when I see the word 'essentially' alarm bells ring. It's usually accompanied by slight of hand.
Nevilles comments were an affront, and a disgrace - and I don't need to spin it - the words are very, VERY clear.
It was a comment that went to the heart of legitimate protest and dissent, and one which has gravity which I doubt his limited intellect understands.
Much, MUCH worse than some comment by a teenager about the number of McDonalds in a city.
If you think having someone put money into the club to develop a decent infrastructure and bring a bit of long overdue success to this club is the work of satan, then fair enough.
But at least try and use some sensible arguments to back up that opinion (if there are any).
Your current line of reasoning reminds me of that Harry Enfield character..."Is that what you want, IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT....cos, THATS WHAT'LL HAPPEN"...
To clarify.. We would pay the lump sums from player sales.
Ciaran, you've parked a novel in between my post.
Ciaran
Fair enough
Your words "They're inherent in every club, and if you don.t think we've our fair share then your burying your head in the sand.". Whats that if not mealy mouthed justification?. Oh its ok cos everyone does it!!!. If thats not what you intended to write may I suggest you exercise a bit more clarity with what you put out because thats what it looks like.
"Brilliant, you're accusing me of putting spin on Neville's words, by, er...putting your own rather interpretative spin on them. "
Whats interpretive about that?. The underlying message was 'back the club' do you disagree?. Was that not abundantly clear?. The underlying message from Balotelli and Tevez, a player most definitely not in his teens, was, however indirectly, to the fans 'your home is shit' - you really are trying to paint that as anything other than totally disrespectful to City fans by making vague allusions to resteraunts?. .
You further said "Nowhere did I say, 'Balotelli's behaviour is Ok, because....blah, blah blah'. What I actually did was - compare."
....and that is after making the comment "And by the way, i'd kill for a Ballotelli right now". Making a dismissive comment about not giving a toss about his "social commentary".
The simple inference there is that its fine with you whatever Balotelli does. You ARE condoning the behaviour by turning a blind eye to it whatever ignorance or disinterest you try to claim.
Fair enough
Your words "They're inherent in every club, and if you don.t think we've our fair share then your burying your head in the sand.". Whats that if not mealy mouthed justification?. Oh its ok cos everyone does it!!!. If thats not what you intended to write may I suggest you exercise a bit more clarity with what you put out because thats what it looks like.
"Brilliant, you're accusing me of putting spin on Neville's words, by, er...putting your own rather interpretative spin on them. "
Whats interpretive about that?. The underlying message was 'back the club' do you disagree?. Was that not abundantly clear?. The underlying message from Balotelli and Tevez, a player most definitely not in his teens, was, however indirectly, to the fans 'your home is shit' - you really are trying to paint that as anything other than totally disrespectful to City fans by making vague allusions to resteraunts?. .
You further said "Nowhere did I say, 'Balotelli's behaviour is Ok, because....blah, blah blah'. What I actually did was - compare."
....and that is after making the comment "And by the way, i'd kill for a Ballotelli right now". Making a dismissive comment about not giving a toss about his "social commentary".
The simple inference there is that its fine with you whatever Balotelli does. You ARE condoning the behaviour by turning a blind eye to it whatever ignorance or disinterest you try to claim.
I give up.
Drew, apologies for upsetting you rhythm...
Drew, apologies for upsetting you rhythm...
I think what this all needs is perspective. You cannot, cannot question Phil Neville's commitmentt o improving the players and youngsters at our club. Everyone I have met and spoken to has nothing but good things to say. His comment about 'real fans' was obviously born of frustration at the negative press from the media and a section of our fans who feel it necessary to pollute other fans views of our club through websites and radio talk shows. Jumping on his one comment said in the heat of the moment is a bit harsh given his service to the club.
My view is similar in ways to the original post but it is hard not to look with envy at City. The signs for me though are ominous at Chelsea, they have been spouting 'self sufficient' for the last few years but with their ageing squad and with no self generated funds they had to go cap in hand again to their owner for the torres/Luiz money and he is spending again this summer. If they don't win the champions league in the next few years he will get bored and with his star players all over 30 he will lose an awful lot of money on sale.
It is hard to choose between short term success and long term stability when you have seen one trophy (two finals) in the last 20 plus years. Part of you thinks you'd sell off important body parts just for one more league title or beating a Man Utd or Chelsea in an FA Cup final.
I think there will be a massive bubble burst in the next five years when the owners realise they've made no money and lost a billion or so in the process - they won't be remembered in 20 years time but the club will so what is the point in spending all that money, particularly when there won't be that many billionaires queuing at the door to take your white elephant of your hands
My view is similar in ways to the original post but it is hard not to look with envy at City. The signs for me though are ominous at Chelsea, they have been spouting 'self sufficient' for the last few years but with their ageing squad and with no self generated funds they had to go cap in hand again to their owner for the torres/Luiz money and he is spending again this summer. If they don't win the champions league in the next few years he will get bored and with his star players all over 30 he will lose an awful lot of money on sale.
It is hard to choose between short term success and long term stability when you have seen one trophy (two finals) in the last 20 plus years. Part of you thinks you'd sell off important body parts just for one more league title or beating a Man Utd or Chelsea in an FA Cup final.
I think there will be a massive bubble burst in the next five years when the owners realise they've made no money and lost a billion or so in the process - they won't be remembered in 20 years time but the club will so what is the point in spending all that money, particularly when there won't be that many billionaires queuing at the door to take your white elephant of your hands
Ahhh....the often fabbled 'bubble bursting' of premiership football..
The bubble that is eternally going to burst....Even though it handsomely survived a global recession.
By the way, I didn't know we had a choice between Short term success and long term stability....We have neither of these at the minute.
When's the vote?
The bubble that is eternally going to burst....Even though it handsomely survived a global recession.
By the way, I didn't know we had a choice between Short term success and long term stability....We have neither of these at the minute.
When's the vote?
Now I'm a casual racist for wanting clubs to keep their identities! Ohh fuck it — let's have all the clubs in England owned by foreign billionaires spending the likes of £250,000 a week on a player's wages!
And yes to the other poster I know all about Philip Green and if I had my way he wouldn't be on our board. But the different is hes not bankrolling Everton unless you can prove me otherwise? And its not a generalisation about the City owners, its a known fact that they use slave workers in that part of the world and the humans rights elements to those countries are not up to scratch by any means.
But that's not even my main reason why I don't want a billionaire, even if the billionaire was English i still wouldn't want Everton spending money which isn't coming through natural means, I'm not even a fan of the way our current regime has been borrowing money to the hilt to buy players and spend on wages.
I just want someone who has a long term vision which is sustainable, no quick fixes as the author of this thread quite rightly says.
And yes to the other poster I know all about Philip Green and if I had my way he wouldn't be on our board. But the different is hes not bankrolling Everton unless you can prove me otherwise? And its not a generalisation about the City owners, its a known fact that they use slave workers in that part of the world and the humans rights elements to those countries are not up to scratch by any means.
But that's not even my main reason why I don't want a billionaire, even if the billionaire was English i still wouldn't want Everton spending money which isn't coming through natural means, I'm not even a fan of the way our current regime has been borrowing money to the hilt to buy players and spend on wages.
I just want someone who has a long term vision which is sustainable, no quick fixes as the author of this thread quite rightly says.
No, that's not why I called your remarks as causal racism Marcus...It has more to do with the fact that you keep repeating the generalisation (4 times on this thread, and again above ) that foreign ownership involves the slave trade and human right violations.
Please stop.
Please stop.
ohh okay, I'll ignore the facts I've learnt then because its better to be politically correct with you.
Steve Jones, seriously, you know old Maine Road die-hards who are annoyed at the present state of affairs at Eastlands? And that's it, point made and argument won? I know my dad has been a City fan since the 1950s and he's never been as happy with the club. To every nutty ying you can throw up, there is a reasoned yang.
As for Marcus Kendall, he just loves it that we're struggling at our own natural level in Liverpool's shadow. I thought the object of the game was to win things, be successful, get bigger and better. But apparently it's to wallow in mediocrity and wax all lyrical about how noble it is to be content with ones lot.
As for Marcus Kendall, he just loves it that we're struggling at our own natural level in Liverpool's shadow. I thought the object of the game was to win things, be successful, get bigger and better. But apparently it's to wallow in mediocrity and wax all lyrical about how noble it is to be content with ones lot.
Jay
"Steve Jones, seriously, you know old Maine Road die-hards who are annoyed at the present state of affairs at Eastlands? And that's it, point made and argument won? I know my dad has been a City fan since the 1950s and he's never been as happy with the club. To every nutty ying you can throw up, there is a reasoned yang."
I dont think annoyed is the right description. Bitterly disappointed I think is closer to the mark. They see their club winning stuff and cant feel any pride in it because its bought not earned. Your dad obviously has a different idea about pride than they do and isn't quite as bothered by the lack of player development etc. I see it causes you no shame so good for you eh?.
The point was well couched by a poster earlier in the thread as to whether you'd mope in the corner of the pub if we won the league title with a bunch of mercenary players, who couldn't give two tosses about the club and the fans, bought with a billionaires coin. Can't say that I'd mope, but, I'll honestly tell you I'd no more feel any pride in the achievement than my mates did seeing their club lifting the FA Cup. For me if you cant take pride in something like that you have to question what value it has.
"Steve Jones, seriously, you know old Maine Road die-hards who are annoyed at the present state of affairs at Eastlands? And that's it, point made and argument won? I know my dad has been a City fan since the 1950s and he's never been as happy with the club. To every nutty ying you can throw up, there is a reasoned yang."
I dont think annoyed is the right description. Bitterly disappointed I think is closer to the mark. They see their club winning stuff and cant feel any pride in it because its bought not earned. Your dad obviously has a different idea about pride than they do and isn't quite as bothered by the lack of player development etc. I see it causes you no shame so good for you eh?.
The point was well couched by a poster earlier in the thread as to whether you'd mope in the corner of the pub if we won the league title with a bunch of mercenary players, who couldn't give two tosses about the club and the fans, bought with a billionaires coin. Can't say that I'd mope, but, I'll honestly tell you I'd no more feel any pride in the achievement than my mates did seeing their club lifting the FA Cup. For me if you cant take pride in something like that you have to question what value it has.
spot on Steve Jones, If Everton went the way of Man City I'd feel no pride in it.
As for saying I enjoy being in Liverpools shadow thats not at all what I meant. I said I want us to be better than Liverpool but I know as the smaller club its going to have to be earned by good management, a good youth system and a sustainable model for what I would feel immense pride in. Not some 'project' where players are earning £250'000 a week and the youth system being totally neglected for the latest 'galactico' who probably never even heard of Man City 5 years ago
As for saying I enjoy being in Liverpools shadow thats not at all what I meant. I said I want us to be better than Liverpool but I know as the smaller club its going to have to be earned by good management, a good youth system and a sustainable model for what I would feel immense pride in. Not some 'project' where players are earning £250'000 a week and the youth system being totally neglected for the latest 'galactico' who probably never even heard of Man City 5 years ago
Marcus & Steve.
Class versus cash.
It may be misty-eyed, head-in-the-sand romanticism on my part,but I agree with your view and preference on the contrast between us and Man.City.
I'd rather see us earn success by approximating SOME traditional values, despite the modern ecomomic reality,rather than JUST see New-Money (even if it is clean) parachute in, leading to a dozen incoming transfers,and immediate,albeit hollow success.
Class versus cash.
It may be misty-eyed, head-in-the-sand romanticism on my part,but I agree with your view and preference on the contrast between us and Man.City.
I'd rather see us earn success by approximating SOME traditional values, despite the modern ecomomic reality,rather than JUST see New-Money (even if it is clean) parachute in, leading to a dozen incoming transfers,and immediate,albeit hollow success.
@ Steve Jones: ALL footballers are mercenaries, so what's this about moping in the pub over a bunch of mercenaries winning stuff for you?
And as for City "buying" success, stop it, you're killing me with your perverted logic. I suppose you think Wayne Rooney plays for Man Utd for the love of it? Or that United's entire team was assembled from a bunch of plucky diehard United fans acquired for nothing? And then you get all preachy about "buying" success!!!!!!
And as for City "buying" success, stop it, you're killing me with your perverted logic. I suppose you think Wayne Rooney plays for Man Utd for the love of it? Or that United's entire team was assembled from a bunch of plucky diehard United fans acquired for nothing? And then you get all preachy about "buying" success!!!!!!
Jay,
You seriously cant see the difference in 'normal' operation of football clubs in the Prem and the Man City model?.
I wasn't talking about moping in the pub. I was talking about pride.
You seriously cant see the difference in 'normal' operation of football clubs in the Prem and the Man City model?.
I wasn't talking about moping in the pub. I was talking about pride.
Steve, is Arteta a mercenary? Or does he play for the love of Everton. David Moyes dithered over a huge contract. Ok, he wanted to find out what was available regarding transfers and where the club was going. So,say Kenwright said, Davey, £1million a year is all I can offer. Do you think he'd be here? Not a fucking chance. They are all mercenaries and Everton have the same share as anyone else.
Pride, Steve. I earn shit wages and I want to see my club succeed.In proportion to what I earn the lowest paid player at Goodison Park is a billionaire. That is crap but ,hey that's life. So, let me ask you this. How much investment in Everton is acceptable to you? Where is your cut off line? Robb doesn't want a billionaire.. So, would £5million be acceptable? If you want investment you can have enough to make it big or enough to do it the hard way. Morally, what's the difference?
Pride, Steve. I earn shit wages and I want to see my club succeed.In proportion to what I earn the lowest paid player at Goodison Park is a billionaire. That is crap but ,hey that's life. So, let me ask you this. How much investment in Everton is acceptable to you? Where is your cut off line? Robb doesn't want a billionaire.. So, would £5million be acceptable? If you want investment you can have enough to make it big or enough to do it the hard way. Morally, what's the difference?
Some good arguments for & against here..
Andy,
Do you work as on screen talent in the movies? That's what Prem footballers are paid to do these days. Movie stars make a few mill a pic cos they bring in the revenue - footballers are the same now. There is a parallel there to other high revenue generating industries. I assume your not quite as scandalised that Morgan Freeman picks up the money he does for a starring movie role? You are that Arteta makes what he does though?
Once again its not Prem salaries that are at issue here. Arteta is good example - signing with us with everything to prove and putting the work in to be an integral part of the squad. Could you deny he has developed as a player with us?. Same could be said for Baines, Jags, Lescott, Cahill etc, etc.
Save for Lescott who out of that list hasn't been a fine ambassador for the club?.
Contrast that with City's squad. Who among them a season or two ago was there for any other reason than a sheikh's payroll. Is Lescott a better player at City than he was at Goodison?. No. The ambition at the club hasn't been enough for a number of high profile players even now when they finally may be starting to make a challenge.
How much investment is too much?. Its a bright question but I think its irrelevent. The way that money is spent is as important as the amount. If a party comes in willing to invest in our infrastructure so that we can maximise our own revenue generation potential and be self sustaining without continual bailouts I'd consider that a different scenario than Cities activities despite a likely similarity in money dropped in.
Do you work as on screen talent in the movies? That's what Prem footballers are paid to do these days. Movie stars make a few mill a pic cos they bring in the revenue - footballers are the same now. There is a parallel there to other high revenue generating industries. I assume your not quite as scandalised that Morgan Freeman picks up the money he does for a starring movie role? You are that Arteta makes what he does though?
Once again its not Prem salaries that are at issue here. Arteta is good example - signing with us with everything to prove and putting the work in to be an integral part of the squad. Could you deny he has developed as a player with us?. Same could be said for Baines, Jags, Lescott, Cahill etc, etc.
Save for Lescott who out of that list hasn't been a fine ambassador for the club?.
Contrast that with City's squad. Who among them a season or two ago was there for any other reason than a sheikh's payroll. Is Lescott a better player at City than he was at Goodison?. No. The ambition at the club hasn't been enough for a number of high profile players even now when they finally may be starting to make a challenge.
How much investment is too much?. Its a bright question but I think its irrelevent. The way that money is spent is as important as the amount. If a party comes in willing to invest in our infrastructure so that we can maximise our own revenue generation potential and be self sustaining without continual bailouts I'd consider that a different scenario than Cities activities despite a likely similarity in money dropped in.
Steve,I merely picked Arteta as an example of a high earner at Everton. I admire him. Also,I don't begrudge footballers their money,as you rightly imply, we don't talk of movie stars with the same ridicule. In fact, football is one of the few profession in which we are told the salary in terms of how much per week. I believe it is a matter of perception. To me,George Clooney may as well be an alien,so far removed from me he is. Wayne Rooney isn't ,in my deluded mind,that far away.
Frankly, I'm struggling to make my point. It seems to me that football is totally commercialised. At what point is it acceptable to be proud of your teams success?How much less would City have to spend for it to be palatable ? How much more would Everton have to spend for it to be unpalatable?
Frankly, I'm struggling to make my point. It seems to me that football is totally commercialised. At what point is it acceptable to be proud of your teams success?How much less would City have to spend for it to be palatable ? How much more would Everton have to spend for it to be unpalatable?
Comparing movie stars to footballers isn't that far off the mark. An "A List" star is paid because the producers know that they should make that oney back on the investment. So to should the footballer's wage be determined. Not saying it is, but it should be.
I said a few weeks ago that anyone working in sport being paid more than 1000quid/bucks/chickens per week is overpaid. I still believe that, save for if they actually win something or directly bring more revenue in for their employer. At that point, a cash bonus is understandable.
I said a few weeks ago that anyone working in sport being paid more than 1000quid/bucks/chickens per week is overpaid. I still believe that, save for if they actually win something or directly bring more revenue in for their employer. At that point, a cash bonus is understandable.
Drew. Might not be so silly, after all! Get rid of the debt and at least refinance with new rules. If the reports we get are accurate there is no sense as to why our hands are so tied. There must be some crazy conditions.
One thing that I see as important in all this is that we don't lose our heart and soul as a club. If I were a Man City fan I would probably feel happy the team is winning but empty in all other respects. It can be short lived until the next big buy out happens as per Chelsea then Man City. Also, eventually, I expect Fifa & Co will change the rules of engagement.
Claran's novel did get in the way of the conversation but, eh, that's Toffeeweb!
One thing that I see as important in all this is that we don't lose our heart and soul as a club. If I were a Man City fan I would probably feel happy the team is winning but empty in all other respects. It can be short lived until the next big buy out happens as per Chelsea then Man City. Also, eventually, I expect Fifa & Co will change the rules of engagement.
Claran's novel did get in the way of the conversation but, eh, that's Toffeeweb!
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1 Posted 24/08/2011 at 16:59:51
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