Flying Everton shot down by WBA

, 1 September, 171comments  |  Jump to most recent
West Bromwich Albion 2 - 0 Everton

Match Summary

With a virtually fully-fit squad the manager has chosen to stick with the same starting XI who have won the last two league games to put Everton in 3rd place at the start.

The Blues started pressing pretty much from the start, with Steven Pienaar having a shot blocked, although Fellaini was lucky not to be called for a clumsy tackle. Pienaar was fouled and appeared to injure his ankle and hobbled off, but came back on eventually.

A clear tackle from behind on Jelavic in the WBA area was not given as a penalty and there was worse news when Gibson pulled up with what looked like a groin injury after just 17 minutes. David Moyes selected Hibbert to replace him, rather than taking the more attacking option of Kevin Mirallas, with Neville moving into midfield instead.

Losing Gibson was a massive blow and Everton then got a real fright when Ridgeway's cross was headed in by Long and smacked the bar with Howard beaten. Then it was Everton's chance to threaten, Fellaini coming close with his header.

Pienaar was having problems finding his man, and put Hibbert into trouble with a horrible pass that saw Hibbert yellow carded for his foul on Foutune. Fellaini then got a warning for his persistent fouling. West Brom then came very close to scoring, and it needed a desperation save from Howard off Morrison to keep the scorecard clean.

Yacob then fouled Naismith but on the next attack, Pienaar set up Jelavic but he was flagged for offsite. 0 - 0 at the break.

Reid went in the book after the break, while some silly nonsense transpired over white or blue tape on Fellaini's socks! Reid came close for the home side as Everton struggled to take command.

Baines did well to win a corner and Jelavic gave Fellaini the opportunity to turn and shoot but he could not keep his shot on target. At the other end, Osman gave away a dangerous free-kick somewhat needlessly that Dorrans executed poorly and he was switched for Odemwinge.

Everton played some better joined-up stuff with patient build-up down the left but the move ended when play switched and Hibbert's cross was too long. The hour-mark approached and David Moyes took the opportunity to bring on Kevin Mirallas for Steven Naismith and something by way of a fresh spark. But it was West Brom who pressed and won a corner that was touched away by Osman, setting up a break down the right with Mirallas that ended in an open goal for Fellaini that he totally shanked! A shocking miss!

And they paid the price at the other end, when Long got in front of Distin and scored off a good low cross from Odemwinge, Everton were stunned, while West Brom got a surge of life.

Mirallas made a good solo run but the power was taken out of his shot. Neville went in the book for a foul on Mulumbu, giving away a set-piece that was thankfully wasted as the Blues tried to regroup and mount their offence. But the next attack again broke down and Fellaini's lazy clip earned him his inevitable yellow card, Everton's fourth.

As the introduction of Mirallas had not worked, Moyes decided it was time for Super-Sub Anichebe to enter the fray in place of Captain Phil Neville, with less than 20 minutes remaining.

Long looked to have the beating of Distin chasing a forward ball but the big man was imperious and Long then went off as West Brom took a corner that caused some trouble but ended up with Morrison blasting over. Some desperate blocks by Baggies defenders thwarted first Pienaar then Fellaini as the Blues pressed to get forward. But it was the home side who came close with Yacob taking a poke. Mulumbu was next to take a shot at Howard as Everton looked less and less likely to score.

And indeed from a corner McAuley powered in a header that will have Moyes seething, a Baggie clearly impeding Howard on his line.

Somehow, Fellaini again fluffed his lines with the goal gaping as a cross came in and he backheeled it instead of burying it. A really bad day at the office for the Big Belgian.

Everton tried to force a recovery but it was really too little too late, Moyes making arguably the wrong decisions that failed to build on a huge wave of feelgood positivity going into this match.

Everton back down to earth with a bang after what looked to be a wonderful start to the season and a very promising end to the transfer window.

Everton: Howard; Neville (73' Anichebe), Baines, Jagielka, Distin; Osman, Gibson (18' Hibbert), Pienaar, Fellaini; Naismith (61' Mirallas); Jelavic. Subs not Used: Mucha, Coleman, Gueye, Heitinga.

Michael Kenrick

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Reader Comments (171)

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Ian Smitham
1 Posted 01/09/2012 at 14:19:48
Looks like Davey got my team selection email and has gone with my setup, he just needs to get the 3-0 right now.
Eugene Ruane
2 Posted 01/09/2012 at 14:22:27
They play some decent stuff West Brom but (again), let them worry about us.

Go at them, be confident, be committed, keep playing the football we've been been playing.

Attitude and skill, kill.

Paul Mackie
3 Posted 01/09/2012 at 14:31:42
A win today and imagine how happy this place will be over the international break!

Realistically, we should win. I'd settle for a draw and us playing well. The longer our undefeated run goes the more nervous I am before a match for some reason.

Christopher Kelly
4 Posted 01/09/2012 at 14:53:55
That's a good point you make, Paul. Imagine the team too. Usually when the team starts so poorly, they are never under any pressure. This will be interesting to see how the team plays under some scrutiny. Much different mentality will be needed for the team to continue on!
Jack Okell
5 Posted 01/09/2012 at 15:27:45
Big shame Gibson coming off, hope it's nothing serious. Second half should bring on Mirillas and push Felli back into midfield.
Douglas Turner
6 Posted 01/09/2012 at 16:57:47
Back to earth with a bump! Oh well! One defeat out of Three! Six points out of Nine! Still got our new players to jel the Everton way!
Joe McMahon
7 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:08:20
Pit we won't be in top 4 for the int break. Now please guys and gals, stop laughing at Liverppol. Lets wait until we beat them twice in a season first. It's a massive season for us and Moyes, his 11th!! I hope we will see the new sigings more and hopefully less of tried and tested clod hoppers Osman, Neville and Hibbert. (but I doubt it) Heitinga is a must for back in defence!
Kunal Desai
8 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:13:49
A bit of perspective needed here, 1 loss in 12, it happens, hopefully it's a one off and Moyes will regroup with the lads and go on another run starting with the barcodes in two weeks.
John Audsley
9 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:14:15
Gibson and common sense where both a big loss today.

We had no idea in the final third and Felli had clearly been reading his own hype.

Woeful all round, if Moyes wants to make a statement this season we need to win games like this.

Maybe he has spent too much time off the training ground and Round too much time on it.....

Phil Sammon
10 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:08:57
We were very poor today. Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Naismith and Fellaini all had off-days.

I cannot believe Anichebe gets to wear that royal blue shirt. The lad has no skill, no pace and bafflingly no strength. He is a terrible footballer. That could all be excused if he showed even the slightest bit of desire. I honestly don't have a good word to say about the lad. How we got rid of Vaughan and kept this lump I will never know.

I hate days like today.

Denis Richardson
11 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:09:36
Before the start of the season, I would have taken 5 points before the international break so am happy with 6. The defeat also helps to bring a number of people back down to earth with very premature talk of top 4 etc.

It is tragically obvious how important Gibson is to us and putting neville in the midfield just highlighted (for the umteenth time) that he is NOT a midfielder! I pray that this new belgian kid can play in gibsons position as I can see gibson missing a few games through injury this season. If we don't have an adequate replacement them Fellaini needs to drop back.

WIn some loose some, would have been different I think had gibbo not gone off. We really need to finally end Neville or Heintinga playing in midfield - they are defenders. (Yes they have an ok game now and again but law of averages is not good enough).

Defeat is annoying but fair play to West Brom, they were the better side. Lets hope gibsons hamstring injury is recovered in 2 weeks time.

Was also disappointed with Naismith (early days I know). We didn't do much on the right side of the pitch for the first hour.

Peter Thistle
12 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:10:56
Reality check for us. Hopefully the players react well in the next game.
Phil Sammon
13 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:18:32
I don't know which game you were watching, Joe. Osman was the only one who had a decent game. But hey, why should that stop people slagging off the same few
Anto Byrne
14 Posted 01/09/2012 at 16:59:50
Albion played rather well, I will say the refereeing was a bit suspect. I don't know if it was one of those days but we got nothing and we were playing ok.

We really should have done better with the chances we created. We should have been 2 up at half time, Albion never troubled us once in that first 45.

Typically we miss an absolute sitter and they go down the other end and score. Oh well... a two week break and Newcastle are back in town. Hopefully Gibbo will have recovered and we can bounce back to winning ways.
Michael Kenrick
16 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:19:04
I was quietly hoping that Moyes had changed his spots this season, shifting out much of the deadwood and really freshening things up with the new players coming in, having forward-thinking play the rule of the day. Positive, attack-minded, confident... That's how we'd been playing.

But on 17 mins today he proved nothing has really changed. He had the opportunity to keep the positive spirit going despite losing Gibson... but what does he do? Negativity at a critical moment in the game and the positive, attack-minded confidence evaporates. We miss an open goal that coulda woulda won it. And we give up two of the softest goals imaginable.

Sam Hoare
17 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:23:42
Didn't see anyone play well today apart from maybe Mirallas in his cameo. Still, we are just about 4th for now and lost a tight match away to a team that is 3rd. Not the end of the world.

Hope Gibson is not injured for long as his involvement is crucial for us keeping our shape and without him we either have to play the slight painful to watch Neville or drop Felli back (though with his finishing today maybe not a bad thing). International break gives Gibson time to recover hopefully and if not for Vadis to settle in.

Anto Byrne
18 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:22:03
Just a thought: Why bring on Hibbo and push Nevo into the middle?

Surely Felli could have done the Gibbo role and we could have had Mirallas on?
Eric Kobal
19 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:25:27
Final ball poor. Crossing poor and playing into the hands of their centre backs. Where was all the inter passing and movement. Played like Sunday league team with no urgency. Also thought they were better than they really are, so a big reality step. No stress; we will come good against Newcastle.
Ernie Baywood
20 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:18:39
Feeling pretty pissed off about that.

WBA had a plan to counter Fellaini and it was working. One in front, one behind and with them pressing high up the pitch on us we could only aim long balls at him. Our response was to persist, persist, persist with it - even if it meant playing a defender in midfield to make it happen. Just dumb football.

Then the change finally comes and we put Osman on the right with Hibbert. That doesn't work, has never worked, has been responsible for some of our biggest disappointments. They immediately set about destroying that flank and got the first from there. Just more dumb football.

All up, lots of disappointing individual performances but we were still on top until Gibson went off. That changed the game but shouldn't let our manager off the hook. Fella is a defensive midfielder who can also play an attacking role. If it's not working then have the sense to go to plan B and return him to his proper position... don't just persist at all costs.

Credit to West Brom. Decent side who played well and executed a gameplan.

Back to earth with a bump and a stark reminder of, for all his positives, where our greatest weakness might actually be.

Andy Peers
21 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:29:16
Couldn't agree more Michael. Thought with the latest goings on that Moyes had seen the light.
Amit Vithlani
22 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:20:14
Gibbo's injury changed the game but Hibbo's lack of match fitness did not help either. He either got too tight or backed off and when in crossing positions simply could not get past the first man.

First goal was really poor defending from him and West Brom targetted our right side with Fortune then Odemwingie.

Hope Gibbo's back for the barcodes but if not, Felli needs to drop back as we need a presence in the centre. Mirallas to start right side with Nais off Jelavic.

Up the blues.

Steavey Buckley
23 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:30:08
Everton were let down, because no one protected the back four. With Gibson off injured, there was no one to replace him. Jags gifted WBA's first goal by failling to cut out a across from the right hand side, before Fellaini had just missed a sitter in front of goal. Everton did not take their chances, so lost it.
Amit Vithlani
24 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:33:00
Ernie - good analysis. I thought 2 tactical mistakes cost us after the Gibbo injury: bringing an unfit Hibbo on and then, when Mirallas came on, sticking him on the left. He made Felli's chance from the right and would have penned WBA back on that side. When he went left, the Peanuts / Baines combo was broken and we did nothing on either flank.

Bad day at the office for the manager but it happens to all of us.

Paul David
25 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:26:45
This game was a throw back to the bad old days we thought were behind us. We had no ideas and resulted to lumping it up to Fellaini (this is why I don't want him up there permamently). All the excitment and optimism surrounding this squad and we still end up with Neville in midfield and Anichebe on the pitch.

Pienaar and Fellaini were both shite today. From what I've seen from Naismith I don't think he deserves to be starting games yet. Howard with yet another fuck up. I thought Distin looked shaky against Man Utd and again today, time for Heitinga to replace him.

Today's performance was piss-poor but I'm still happy with 6 points from 3 games.

Andy Crooks
26 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:38:30
Hibbert for Gibson. One negative, typically Moyes decision and the parade is well and truly pissed on. We had a brilliant August but we must still recognise shite when we see it.
Douglas Turner
27 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:20:26
Royston Drenthe, all's forgiven! There! I said it! Now I'll move on! With Gibo out, I wonder if Moyes will introduce Vadis into the midfield next week! I know he wouldn't normally but, the guy's a Marque singing who plays in CM! Maybe it's because we're still adapting but midfield is exactly where we looked a little shaky today even before Gibo went off! The Ref didn't help either!
John Malone
28 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:34:36
I see on Kompany's twitter account he says Everton might not realize what they've got in Vadis Odjidja-Ofoe, he says he's a top player, fingers crossed he slots right in and gets us back to winning ways.

Poor defending and poor finishing what cost us today just reiterates the fact Fellaini is not a striker/goal scorer he's a good player who will do a job anywhere but in my opinion his best position is centre mid.

I feel a bit sorry for Jelavic he works his socks off and is not getting the service. Bad day at the office for the defence just brings everyone down a peg or two and reminds us we've got to give our best every week!
Brian Waring
29 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:35:03
I know it's only one defeat, but I hope this defeat doesn't have Moyes reverting back to the norm: go out not to lose and anything else is a bonus.

Colin Potter
30 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:30:19
You're right Michael K, Mirallas should have been on for Gibson, but no, once again he bottles it!
Nick Entwistle
31 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:47:13
Who were you wanting to replace Gibson MK? Bringing on Hibbert and shifting Neville gave, on paper at least, continuation of how we started. How is that negative?
Martin Mason
32 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:42:35
They were beaten by very much the better side in the end. Tragedy losing Gibson and our shape but where we are really weak is that when we tried to play 4-4-2 with Mirallas on to follow WB's changes we couldn't play it as we never can. We are also one sided, we have a left flank but attack wise nothing on the right. WB had our plan A sorted and we had no plan B so tactically Clarke ate Moyes. Distin alternated between imperious and awful, Everton from looking like United early on to Tranmere at the end. On the evidence of today Mirallas is not a premiership player and Victor of course never will be, what EFC see in him between matches I do not know but he looks clueless at EPL level.

A real come down today but the thing is we must learn from it, it's only a defeat, United would recover from it but can we?

Kev Johnson
33 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:42:31
How predictable. We play badly and according to some on here it's Moyes fault! He replaced an injured DM with someone (Neville) who has played DM before and kept Fellaini up front - which was positive, if you ask me. He could have brought Mirallas on and brought Fellaini back, but why would he, given The Big Man's recent success playing off the front. To have simply replaced Gibson with Mirallas would have been a bit irrational and would have necessitated swapping several players round.

If Gibson had been injured after 70 minutes, the moaners would have a point, but it was only 20 minutes in - playing away against a team who've started the season brightly. He kept the shape the same. Where's the managerial cock-up in that?

I'm disappointed. We played badly. It happens. Next game, please...

David Heaton
34 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:38:47
Bit off the pace today with WBA very physical and using all the tricks you would expect from a x Liverpool coach, impeding Howard faking injury etc, Moyes has done well with his signings but the one position we are desperately short of class is the RB. Hibbert was totally at fault for their first goal and as ever they scored from their right I'm sure if you checked the stats 80% of goals against us come from the right. I'd give Coleman a ago and get Naismith to cover for him as we have no one else. Moyes is frustrating in never taking a chance with all the good players he has available, Playing Vic, Hibbert, Ozzy why not use some of the lads that played so well on Wednesday.
Lee Hind
35 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:43:18
6/9...that'll do.

Bad day today but even the best teams have them. 2 weeks to embed new signings and 3 points against the Toon....sounds easy when I say it... ;)

Paul Gladwell
36 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:46:58
Paul David , from what I have seen which is every game Naismith did warrant a start, last Saturday was the best we have played for years, today top draw players like Baines and Pienaar were awful, it only happens once in a while so lets get over it.
Questioning the starting eleven is bollocks after the start we have had.
Brian Waring
37 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:50:55
On paper it may have Nick, but Gibson can do the holding role, get forward and spread the ball around, Neville Can't, so you lose that attacking intent from the middle of the park.
Paul Ferry
38 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:27:33
So so disappointing. No need for jerking knees though. But some thoughts:

(1) Central defence. Absolutely shocking today, that 1st goal ought to be shown to all aspiring 12- or 13-year-old defenders about how not to defend – Hibbo caught out, Jags (well, marooned), Distin wrong-sided (again). Why oh why is Johnny not starting? I know he makes gaffs now and then, but to state the blind bleedingly fucking obvious, so do the chumps at the back today, and at least Johnny can play the ball out of defence.

(2) Goalie, from the sublime to the ridiculous. Howard drives me nuts, goalies cannot afford a 50% success ratio, he was like a straggling gormless tit for the 2nd goal (but, by the way, the baggie was only allowed to shoot for the (great) save for the corner coz Distin backed off and then put his leg in the air like a pert ballerina when the Baggie shot). I seriously don't know what to do. We have no better option. We need a top-drawer alternative, Brummy boy or whoever, has to be a #1 priority for the next window.

(3) The service for Mirallas when he came on was piss poor. His first touch and movement was just the injection we needed and should have led to a goal. But the next 30 mins? Baines, listen, you don't need to run past Mirallas with the ball all the time, he is perfectly capable of doing these things for himself. Pass it LB, okay?

(4) Neville. Fuck me, he should never ever ever ever never ever ever never ever play in centre-mid for us ever again. I can't take any more of it: his gormless wandering like the proverbial headless chicken, his neat and tidy little passes that get us fucking nowhere, his ballooning balls (so to speak) that end up in a throw-in for our smiling opponents.

(5) Right-back. Something has to happen here, because neither Neville or Hibbert are good enough all round. Both bring something to this position, but neither is a complete right back. Answer? Fuck knows. Moyes seems happy and clearly disagrees with me and he, after all, is the expert. Work on Coleman's clear defensive lack of nous? Possibly. Can Garbutt play right side? With the goalie, right-back, I feel, is our major sore point now that we have left-back cover.

(6) I'm sorry, time to call time on Osman. How on earth peeps thought he had a good game today is beyond me, and I don't base this on a single game, but handful of seasons where admittedly there have been some very good things but not enough, too lightweight, maddening.

(7) Time to call time on the biggest lumbering load of arrogant shite that I have seen at The Old Lady over the last decade or so, Victor fucking Anichebe., Ship him. There is now no need to have this shameful championship player on our bench any longer. Sell the camel to Stoke in January, the mutants and living dead there will welcome him with open flesh dripping arms.

(8) With the smart window dealing we no longer need to have Osman starting, Neville in centre-mid, or Anichebe sitting like a right good proper Prem player on our bench. Nice work Davey, nice work. Shrewd dealing, professional and proper scouting and dealing. Well done fella.

(9)Reasons to be cheerful (part-1). No matter what happened to today in baggie-land (fuck Smethwick is one shitbag of a dump) this squad is still very promising and for the first time in years, with the right sort of managerial decision-making and wheeling and dealing, there is creativity and flare nearly everywhere.

(10) Reasons to be cheerful (part-2). A few spots are changing on Davey's leopard skin. Yes, Pete Barry, today was at times a little uncomfortably like last October, but no need to jerk knees and the hammering words after the final whistle were well, quite frankly, silly. Two weeks worth of work for all concerned and then we will again play the next May 8th placed barcodes off the park.

If Davey does not make the most of the raw materials he has in his hands now, I will be the first to jump down his throat. But tell me, I doubt that there is not a single ToffeeWebber who would not have settled on Aug-19 for six points our of nine.

We will be fine, methinks, but let's wait and see, and if need be, criticize if the time comes. That first sub was a little worrying for me, but at least he got Kevin on at 60 and that mightn't well have happened in last year's bleak early winter.

A nice string of winnable games ahead of us. I think that we will be in the top four come say October-1.
COYB

Nick Entwistle
39 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:54:43
For a minute there I thought you were describing Platini.

If continuation of game plan is what's best at 20 minutes, who would you have brought on?

Paul David
40 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:51:15
Nick

When Gibson had to go off I bet most people were thinking bring Mirallas on and drop Fellaini back. This was just one decision but Moyes has form for not doing the obvious and choosing to be cautious instead.

Nick Entwistle
41 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:59:25
But then shouldn't you be complaining that wasn't the starting XI? Moyes had a game plan, with the Villa selection, so why why why why why would he change that at 20 minutes?
Paul David
42 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:58:17
Paul

Your right about last weeks performance but I think Naismith was quiet last week when everyone else was on fire.

Peter Barry
43 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:00:00
"NORMAL SERVICE HAS BEEN RESUMED."

Everton give a depressingly familiar display due to Tactically Inept MANAGEMENT.

Amit Vithlani
44 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:59:31
Kev Johnson calm down. Bringing Hibbo on was a mistake - we know this because WBA undid us down our right for the first goal and when Long hit the bar it was the same side. Also, shifting Nev in CM did not work because we totally lost our fluency after Gibbo went off.

The manager had a choice to make and got it wrong. No harm in pointing this out on a fan's forum is there.

Joe Clitherow
46 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:05:54
Michael could you explain what Moyes selection or tactics has to do with missing an open goal that I agree coulda easily won it?

Surely that is solely down to the player(s)?

Steve Brown
47 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:03:55
We lost control of the midfield from the moment Gibson went off. It was then made worse by the wierd tactical shuffling of the team in the second half.

Fellaini was having no joy against the big centre-halves, so he was pulled into midfield and then 1) Mirallas played wide right and Pienaar played left 2) Anichebe came on and played through the centre with Pienaar wide right and Mirallas left 3) then Mirallas went up front with Jelavic and Anichebe moved the the left and Pienaar began to move from the right into midfield.

As Peter said, tactically an absolute shambles.

Brian Waring
48 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:03:41
The problem is Nick, he replaced a more attacking midfield player in Gibson, by bringing on a defender and moved another defender into the middle, and I know Neville has played CM before, but he's shite there.
Paul Kelly
49 Posted 01/09/2012 at 17:49:15
Ernie#921

Summed it up perfectly and you too Michael.

It just brings up all the failings of how we played before our winning streak and has you thinking was it just a 'flash in the pan'.

I thought after coming back from 4-2 down against the manure last year that our defensive mind set was behind us, that my attitude towards Moyes was had changed, that KITAP1 was behind us. Then we win our first game of the season, against UTD, demolish Villa, stuff Orient with half a team, things are on the up, then we play WB and revert to what Ernie and Michael posted.

I want to believe that we're heading in the right direction, but sometimes, just sometimes.......

Paul Gladwell
50 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:13:04
Paul,I went last week and thought he was top draw similar to Wednesday .
Brian Waring
51 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:09:52
Kevin, its not gloating, its opinions.

I'm over the moon with the way things have gone upto now (Apart from today) even the players Moyes has brought in have got me applauding him, and for the first time in a long, long while I'm quietly confident for the season, but some of you lads need to realise, that along with the plaudits he has deserved, comes the criticism.

David Barks
52 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:14:01
Moyes says at 0-0 maybe he should have settle for a point. That's disgraceful. What a horrible attitude. At 0-0 the game was there for the taking if he would have just put Mirallas in when Gibson went out. Happy at 0-0 away at WBA, I give in. He is not the manager to take Everton to the next level. I can accept the loss, understand that at times the players can have a terrible day (Baines, Pienaar, Distin, Fellaini all did). But I can't accept saying at 0-0 we should have just settle for a draw against WBA.
Terry Smith
53 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:14:53
We badly missed Gibson when he left the pitch. Jelavic got very little service and too many balls in the air to Fellaini.

I'm pissed off as they were not great and we could've done much better.
Ben Dyke
54 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:03:10
Unbelievable this site sometimes! But I still love it. How losing away to a team in form is 'normal service resumed', is just not factual. We have just as often gone away to a team in form under Moyes and beaten them. Did Man U or City go through a whole season last year winning every away game? How did City fans feel when we beat them last year at Goodison? But did they go on to win the league. Did Man U go on to finish second?

To me 'normal service resumed' is people on Toffeeweb having completely unrealistic expectations of a football team. We will have a good season. We may only finish 8th. We will win some away games and amazingly even lose some home games!

We have a squad and team spirit better than our expenditure deserves. On our day we will beat a lot of decent teams, but we will also have some 'poor' results like today again this season. We will not win the league for the foreseeable future, but we may win a cup and get in to Europe. We will see some great performances this year as well as crap ones.

Well done West Brom - beaten both Liverpool teams at home and kept clean sheets. Good day at the office for them (with our help) and bad day for us.

I know its hard not to get emotional when we win well or lose badly but money buys consistency and squad depth when a few players underachieve. I reckon this result will do the squad a world of good ultimately as they will know that they cant just believe their own hype, turn up and win.

Just trying to be balanced. Its a bummer to lose today but we werent good enough.

Andy Peers
55 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:08:24
Fellaini was rattled all game by their CBs. It was obvious after 15 minutes he was not going to be good up there. After Gibson went off Fellaini should have moved back and Mirallas up front. Just seemed bringing on a defender, who didn't seem100% fit, was a bad choice. Hopefully Moyes realizes his errors and moves on.

Jags and Distin were crap today and I believe Johnny H. should be first choice and one of the other two to partner him. Anyone else notice how lethargic and uninterested the players looked today? It's like they all stayed up too late celebrating our impressive late transfer moves.
Nick Entwistle
56 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:17:49
Gibson was the least attacking player from the midfield up. Losing Gibson may have cost us, but it wasn't the substitution. It was tactically a like for like reshuffle.
Nick Entwistle
57 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:21:40
As fro Fellaini, I'd be happy never to see him play up front from the off. Maybe against part time centre backs like Carrick but its a waste of talent and spectacle.
George McKane
58 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:20:44
Dreadful tactics from the KO. Did we learn anything from the last few weeks /games. Lumping the ball forward constantly for their back three to head clear. Poor substitutions - - very very poor. Back to boring football. Well I enjoyed it while it was there. Normal service resumed. Disspointed beyond belief.
Michael Kenrick
59 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:13:45
Joe (#949) — I'm thinking confidence and a positive mindset amongst the players may be connected. And I'm also thinking when the manager makes a negative change, that communicates through to the players who have to work with it. Who knows... bit of a stretch but it perhaps affects the way players execute crucial moves.

Very disappointing post from you, Kevin (#948); you seem to need the release of inverted triumphalism to justify such pathetic accusations as 'hubris' and 'gloating'. Why on earth would any Evertonians be gloating today? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Brent Stephens
60 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:18:23
Ben Dyke. With you on that.

2 consecutive days and 2 totally contrasting sets of emotions. But I'll quickly get back the buzz from yesterday, which itself was built on the buzz from a great 2nd half of last season. That was no "dead cat bounce". The cat is ready to keep purring. And the prospect of the new boys being tried out...!!!

Brian Waring
61 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:19:23
Ben, as David points out, Moyes saying at 0-0, that maybe he should have settled for a point, to me could say 'Normal service resumed' We'll probalby have the 'Lets get to 40 pts and take it from there' line next.
Paul Kelly
62 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:10:15
Kev #948 You say...

Newsflash: We're not immune to either a bad day at the office, or to be beaten fair & square by a better team on the day..

But when you get beat by a better team like we did you find failings in your manager and his tactics, today we reverted to a defensive mindset yet again, to continously pump long balls to Screech even though it was clear this wasn't working. I could see that, you and everyone else, but he persisted and yet again here we are discussing failings of the man that I thought were resigned to last season and many before them.

George McKane
63 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:24:10
For me I couldn't name a Man of the Match. Not one could get above 3 from10. And the tactics were dreadful. Substitutions - - have no idea what the thinking was!
Jamie Barlow
64 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:16:47
Post 946 isn't gloating? We've not heard from him in 3 weeks and up he pops with his capital letters. The bloke is either a red or an idiot, or both.
Michael Kenrick
65 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:27:17
Okay, Jamie, I saw your disgusting comments on the Live Forum and ignored them.

With that one, you just earnt yourself a ban.

Paul Ferry
66 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:14:15
Kevin Hudson (948), like-for-like mate. Last season in the dreary dog-days, any glimmer of a silver lining, then maybe you but certainly other, what shall we say, Moyes-backers (thought that seems silly), charged on here with all the speed of a Japanese bullet train, to gloat.

I'm sorry, pot calling the kettle black, and I'm sorry, but where the fuck where those gloaters when it did go pear-shaped, biding time for the next good game and now and then popping on the boards to take pot-shots. dear me. Silly.

Your post is the symptom and symbol of the bog we sometimes fall onto here. Take your silly gloats elsewhere and remember that anyone has a right to blast Moyes when he gets it wrong and give him a good pat not he back when he he gets it right, whether we are, in your words, MOB or the other side. You see things in black and white polarities mate; I see them on sliding scales.
Brian Waring
67 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:27:28
Come on Jamie, you can have your opinions on Peter, but calling him a redshite, well.....
George McKane
68 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:27:14
Or maybe a very disappointed Evertonian who loves the club and just cannot figure out what was going on today.

I go to every game and have done for 53+ years. Just cannot figure out what goes on these days.

Lumping the ball up all day after playing nice pass football over the past few weeks.

People who disagree, dissidents, are not idiots.
Joe Clitherow
69 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:24:54
Sorry Michael I just don't agree with that one bit.

That was the first game I've missed in ages and it's been staggeringly obvious that confidence and a positive mindset has been oozing out of everyone and increasing with the start we've had.

Missing an open goal will not be down to missing confidence, it will be the exact opposite - overconfidence - in my opinion. I'd say everyone expected us to turn up and take 3 pts thank you very much but - shock, horror! - we lost a game. We had a bad day, the other team had a better one.

Sometimes we will lose games and someone (can't think who) said take stock after 8-10 games. If we are rubbish by then, then there's a problem to be addressed.

Ben Dyke
71 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:26:04
Trying to read Moyes public statements is a mistake to me, as he is very cautious in displaying his true feelings. I took what he said as meaning that he recognised we were having a bad day at the office and therefore started to hope that we may get a draw even though we were struggling. Strangely enough, isn't that the feeling we have when Everton are having an off day?

I don't ever take that in the way some people do i.e. I have no desire to see us win and will be happy to draw. Moyes is a pragmatist/introvert who hides his desires from the public much the way I would. Perhaps that is why I generally am positive always about him and the job he has done/is doing - I understand his temperament. I still am happy to point out and discuss his shortcomings as well. Even Alex Ferguson has faults.

I will also say that if Moyes made what people perceive to be more attacking subs and tactics and we lost 4-1, would we all be happier? On balance I respect his approach. I though Neville was great against Man U. And so was Hibbo. Why would I not go with the approach that has won the previous two games? Would we really have done better if Gibbo went off and Mirallas came on and we changed our whole game plan that the players had trained for? I think Moyes is unfairly criticised when we lose like today. I think the players let him down and let us down.

Martin Mason
72 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:35:20
Kev@936

We didn't keep our shape, we changed to 4-4-2 when Mirallas came on and then we lost it completely when we bought Anichebe on. We lost the game because we lost our shape.

Paul Kelly
73 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:25:04
Ben You say...

Toffeeweb having completely unrealistic expectations of a football team.

Well if that is a manager not realising plan A ain't working and doing FU about it well your right, I do have unreal expectations.

Michael Kenrick
74 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:33:04
Well, Joe, you and I fundamentally disagree in terms of allowable losses. And if you did not watch the game and are basing your analysis on the previous games... well, that's the whole point of many of the sensible analyses people are providing here.

I think it's hugely important that we win the games we play. I absolutely hate the mindset that says it's okay for us to lose one now and again, here and there. That is the attitude of a loser.

Martin Mason
75 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:39:15
We also have to realise that Gibson is our key player, we can have back-up for everybody else in the squad but until we get back up for him we will only be as good as the weakest links. I watched Gibson today and he does a sublime job in taking the ball from defence and distributing it well. He doesn't shine brightly when he does it but he is brilliant and nobody else can do it especially Fellaini who is a destroyer not a distributor.
Brian Waring
76 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:49:17
I thought the Belgian lad we got last minute last night, Martin, is back up for Gibson.
Andy Crooks
77 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:39:26
Martin Mason and David Barks, who are both normally supporters of David Moyes have demonstrated clearly that they will point out crap when it is served up. Kevin Hudson, you talk sense more often than not but you must see that today Moyes was out-done and returned to his default position.

Of course it's one defeat, not the end of the world etc etc. But... it's clearly not a new dawn for Moyes. Today was a huge day and we were miles short of being up to it.

David Barks
78 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:42:53
Michael,

I haven't agreed with you many times in the past, but that statement was just inexcusable. The reporter should have pointed out to him that the game kicks off at 0-0, so is Moyes saying he should have went to WBA and just held out for a 0-0 scoreline?

I can't say Moyes has been terrible because he hasn't been. But I can't accept that attitude from an Everton manager. I could understand it if it was 0-0 and we had gone down to 10 men. But we had our exciting new signing on the bench, who just scored 2 goals in midweek and set up 2 more. And Moyes chooses Hibbert to go replace a midfielder in the first half, at 0-0.

He says maybe he should have settled for 0-0 but he wanted a bit more. Well he sure didn't show it and I think the team does feed off of that, seeing a defender pushed into midfield when you have all attacking options on the bench. Push Naismith into the middle and put Coleman out wide if you don't want to push Mirallas in that quickly. But Hibbert for Gibson and Neville into the midfield? Our attitude and confidence did change after that.

Paul Smith
79 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:42:01
I thought we were the better team first half, second was moody though. We struggle without Gibbo, and Felli was ineffective with them two lumps all over him. All in all though, we had more of the ball and away from home, it wasn't long ago when we couldn't keep possession at home never mind away, I`m trying to take some positives away from the game but understandably Blues will be pissed off tonight.
Brent Stephens
80 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:49:36
Michael #968. "Okay, Jamie, I saw your disgusting comments on the Live Forum and ignored them.
With that one, you just earnt yourself a ban".

Serious question. I'm relatively new to TW. Can you please explain protocols for me. What was unacceptable (I haven't tracked back to look)? And banned for how long?

Joe Clitherow
81 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:44:29
Michael I didn't say it was OK to lose I said it was happen.

In my opinion I think it's you that should have a look at yourself in denigrating other Evertonians. We all get pissed off when we lose but some of us on here have a knee jerk reaction to lash out at and wind up other Evertonians at the drop of a hat. Mentioning no names but his Caps key is broken. That's passive-aggressive behaviour and it doesn't.

I've been on many many coaches to away games and fights don't break out between Evertonians on the way back (well not that often anyway). It's the norm on here.

Sometimes you get beat, you suck it up, you put it right and you move on. That's a winner mentality. Going back over it and moaning, saying "I told you so" (when he didn't) - even actually claiming you are prescient in print - is a loser mentality

Nick Entwistle
82 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:49:51
Doesn't the new Belgian act as cover for Gibson, Martin? At least its two weeks to run off his injury and then its under lights against Newcastle. God I hate international breaks. Its like knowing the chance of a shag is in the offing, but its the fat bird from accounts.
Nick Entwistle
83 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:56:46
Brent, never question anyone's entitlement to be a Blue, even if they're named Chung Pak Ik Sanchez Johansson and never insinuate someone is a red.
Ben Dyke
84 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:47:33
Paul I don't disagree with you wanting that. But I don't think that is what actually happens when we lose a game like today. I think thats where our expectations differ.

If you think football is really as simple as the coach getting all his decisions right = his team win, then your world is different to mine.

I think luck comes into it. Officials come in to it. The other coach comes in to it.. The respective performances of the 22 + players comes into it. Heck, the weather even affects it.

Do you not think that if it was as simple as a coach just saying this is plan A guys go and do it that when it went wrong with no other ideas the players would at the end of a dreadful season (if not before) start saying 'Moyes is crap - he tells us to lump the ball up to Fellaini when we keep telling him no. And he also keeps putting Neville on who is crap. I don't want to be at a club with such a crap coach'.

Sam Hoare
85 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:55:17
No doubt many would describe me as a 'Moyesophile' or something similar but I would like to think I am balanced and prepared to criticise where appropriate but I just did not see that much to criticise in selection and tactics today.

Starting team wise he picked the same XI that won at Villa and I think most people were happy with that.

Gibson got injured early (which we surely can't blame the manager for) and much as I hate to see Neville in midfield it did seem the obvious choice by replacing like for like in so far as he could. He might have played Heitinga there instead but to be fair Neville played that position well against Man Utd.

He could have maybe put on Mirallas but we don't know how fit he is and it would have required more disruption to what has been till today a very successful formation.

The match was pretty even at this point and Moyes tried to be positive by bringing on Mirallas who then set up what could (and maybe should) have been the winning goal for Fella. As it was Fella blazed over and they broke and scored from a very fine piece of wing play from Odemwingie.

Hindsight is easy but I really don't see that Moyes made any decisions which were glaring mistakes. The team just performed below their best and came up against a resilient, well organised West Brom who took their chances better than we did.

At very worst we will be 6th or 7th going into international break with the best squad we have had in a long time.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
86 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:58:00
Brent, welcome to the the forum, which is provided here exclusively for Evertonians.

We try not to force too many rules to encourage lively discussion but when it descends to personal abuse, we feel compelled to take action. On that basis, the worst possible insult to a fellow Evertonian on this forum is to be called a red. At one level, it's just a childish jibe, but there is no excuse for it, and Jamie Barlow knows that. I'm sure he'll post a full apology in due course...

Peter Barry
87 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:59:30
@ Jamie Barlow (#967) — No, it's not gloating, it's said in sadness and in truth. I will give you a prediction which I hope proves incorrect.

"Everton will never win a trophy under the Management of the Tactically Inept big game bottler D Moyes and the destructive ownership of Billy Liar."

I hope I am proved wrong but 10 years of "mediocrity under Moyes" tells me I am right.
Brent Stephens
88 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:09:30
So name your manager PB #990
Joe Clitherow
89 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:08:07
Sam I'd say Vadis has been brought in to fill that Gibson role which seems to be the one that really makes us tick.

I just hope it was as a genuine back up and not for some longer term worry given how Gibson went off today.

Joe Clitherow
90 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:11:41
Disappointing Peter, I feel your prediction is lacking something somewhat.

Have you considered alliteration....?

Eddie Tully
91 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:10:53
From what I could see in the live forum, there were a number of reds impersonating blues. You could tell they were on the wind-up in my opinion.
Michael Kenrick
92 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:13:06
Err... Brent: the other thing we discourage is pointless threads like "Name your manager"

David Moyes us the Everton manager, he has been for a very long time, and he will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Ian Hogg
93 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:14:22
Well done West Brom, thoroughly deserved your win. Back down to earth with a bump for Everton, maybe the break will give DM the time to drum in to the Everton players that you don't just have to turn up to get the points!!!

Biggest gripe of the day, when Gibson went off old Davey reverted to type and brought on Hibbert when perhaps a more attacking approach/formation may have got us a result!
Christopher Kelly
94 Posted 01/09/2012 at 18:50:39
Being ok with a loss is disgraceful under these circumstances... I understand we've started well but that puts even more emphasis on trying to go for the win versus the draw this year (we've finished 7th far too many times in recent times; let's go for 4th for once). This is the season that Moyes needs to go for the jugular. We were right there and I'm praying he'll learn from this but I'm not holding my breath. Like the famous Bill Parcells said "baby, you are what you are"

Hopefully the new boys will be able to replace the deadwood (and I think they will) because it's just downright depressing to see Hibbert, Neville and Osman on the same pitch.

C'mon Moyes, we'll get 40 points this year FFS, let's go for Champions League.

Peter Barry
95 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:08:56
George McKane # 971 There are lots of Boys on here who too young so have not had the pleasure of watching Everton teams that play to WIN and also win the odd trophy or two. We should just feel sorry for them that they have to witness the ineptness and lack of tactical Nous of the current Management and Ownership .
Brent Stephens
96 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:14:49
Michael #995. Sorry but why is that a pointless thread. It's a very genuine question. PB has slagged off the manager (who I believe will be the manager for a few years to come, and on balance welcome that) - so I just want to flush out some details of alternatives from PB.
Sam Hoare
97 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:15:35
Christopher, there is a big difference between being ok with a loss and accepting that no team wins every match.

I'm gutted about today and usually spend more time on TW when we lose as to when we win but I do think the big picture is looking a hell of alot rosier now than it was 12 months ago.

Like some others on here I do get a little frustrated at those who seem to relish our losing as some sort of vindication. Of course all views are accepted but coming on here to say I told you so does not help anyone.

Ben Dyke
98 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:11:13
Peter do you really see Moyes reign as mediocrity! That's why we will never see eye to eye. Under Moyes we have had more joy than ever in the Premiership era and the few years before. I have seen more attractive football. Enjoyed European nights again. Enjoyed loads of hoodoos broken (Leeds United anyone?). Seen us beat some of the big boys more often than before. I have enjoyed being an Everton fan under Moyes as much as I ever did since the mid 80s.

Moyes is not tactically inept. He is not a big game bottler. He is a pragmatist when a lot of fans are romantics. And I am very sorry but his results do speak for themselves. I don't have an emotional connection to the man at all and he could leave tomorrow and I wouldnt care but just looking at the facts you have to be pretty biased/blind to call it mediocrity.

Let me be clear - I do not have any expectations of us winning the league and I only have small hopes of a cup and the odd European jaunt. That is not defeatist. I would love to see more but even if we had won the odd cup I would not trade that for our relatively consistent league form. Of all the teams outside the big/moneyed teams that have won cups in the Premiership era I wouldnt want to have had any of their coaches or league records.

Blackburn/Boro/Birmingham/Villa/Portsmouth/Leicester

Chris James
99 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:24:28
Fair. Weather. Fans.

Usual Toffeeweb nonsense by too many on this board. Basically rather than sitting back and holding onto 0-0 when it wasn't working, Moyes made changes to try and go for the game (as people have clamoured for in their bile-filled criticism time and time again).

It doesn't work this time, so suddenly after several weeks of being a genius tactically and with transfers our manager is an idiot again.

No one wins all the time, so grow up and get over your fucking selves.

Michael Kenrick
100 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:19:01
David,

I checked what Moyes actually said and I think you may have read it wrong... or at least differently from how I read it. It may help to quote what Moyes reportedly said (from the OS):

“Maybe when it was 0-0 I should have settled for a draw but I wanted a bit more than that.” [Emphasis added].

You missed that last bit out. I think it makes a huge difference in interpretation. At worst, it belies a conviction that he feels we could have got a point if he had them playing KITAP1 in the second half rather than going for it. But in the process he firmly blames the players for the loss, and takes no blame himself, which is a pity.

Personally I think he left it far too late to bring on Mirallas; however, we went behind almost as soon as he came on... It's all second-guessing. We can never know what would actually happen in the alternate universe — but that'll never stop us wondering.

Ben Dyke
101 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:28:58
Well said Chris James!
Christopher Kelly
102 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:23:28
Sam - of course I accept the fact that we will not go 38-0. Sometimes losing can spur change. What none of us should accept is going negative when we should be positive.

I can also see on paper how bringing in Hibbert and moving Neville would make sense (in past years)

However, now, today, going for 4th or higher, and with new signings watching on, playing for a 0-0 draw is so negative, unacceptable and damaging to the club that Moyes really will need to look in the mirror and not repeat this performance. That's all. Don't think we'll be undefeated, just tired of playing for draws.

Ben Dyke
103 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:30:42
Michael - thanks for being a bit more realistic. Sometimes I think you encourage people to be anti Moyes
Matt Traynor
104 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:21:37
Disappointing performance all round, with criminal defending for both goals. The first, Hibbo was left for dead for the cross, which Jags and Distin managed to combine to fail to cut out or mark the inrushing Long. 2nd was awful from Fellaini - a player who should know from his own attacking prowess at set pieces not to let your mark get away from you. He was asleep and by the time he woke up McAuley was already wheeling away in celebration.

Gibson's injury didn't help. To be fair to Moyes, I think he went for the change he did to try to keep the shape and pattern, but on the day Pienaar, Naismith and others misfired badly, and Jelavic was starved of service. One of the weaknesses of the squad identified by fan and neutral alike is the paucity of depth. We do have players to come in, and hopefully they will settle quickly.

None of this should take anything away from WBA, who had a game plan for it and stuck to it. Hopefully the new players give us options in formation and style, because whilst Man U and Villa couldn't live with us, the likes of today, and the Stokes, Sunderlands etc. will lap it up. This time last season performances like today's were the norm, let's hope this time it's a blip.

Ben Dyke
105 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:34:14
5th after 3 games (could sink to 7th if ManU and Newc win tomoz).

"We're gonna win the (mini) league*"

*mini league refers to the league just below the top 6!

Sam Hoare
107 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:49:15
Christopher- Do you think he did go for a draw?

I don't. As his post match comments suggest, bringing on Mirallas was a sign that he wanted to try and nick a goal and ultimately it was our attacking that left us open to the counter attack from which he scored. Before they scored we were camped in their half. Its not like we were throwing men behind the ball and sitting back. I think we went for it and it backfired. A shame, but it happens.

Kevin Tully
109 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:53:30
Really pissed off when Jagielka & Distin were constantly hoofing it upfield. The game was there for the taking by either team, but as soon as Pienaar and Baines started giving the ball away - our attacking threat completely diminished.

I won't blame Moyes for the hoofing - but he should make it clear they will be dropped if they keep it up.

Hopefully Mirallas & the new signings can offer something down the right hand side, we are still woefully dependant on the left going forward.

Jelavic thrives on quick balls on the deck - it's not fucking rocket science to play to his strengths.

Naismith's first touch is currently letting him down badly, it really takes the gloss off his hard work.

Finally, please make sure there is someone in front of Hibbo to cross the ball - how many poor crosses did he put in today ?

Tom Dodds
110 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:59:58
Why is Heitinga not playing?

Did moyes think that Jagielka wasnt going to continue his `hoofball` performances where he left off ? (I know, you'll say Fellaini was catching them, BUT teams with nouse will just go... right, one in front of him and one behind.) Job was done.

Play Johnny or we're back to groundhog day.
Peter Barry
111 Posted 01/09/2012 at 19:59:13
Bringing on Hibbert in the 20th minute and moving Neville in to midfield is not 'Positive' thinking. Waiting until the 62nd minute to swap out the ineffective Naismith for Mirallas is too little too late. Bringing on Anichibe in the 73rd minute is INSANITY.
Tom Dodds
112 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:09:05
Oh and as for bringing on Anichebe... Hey it IS Groundhog day.
Paul Kelly
113 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:09:32
Kev #011

Cheers for the nod, duly noted.

But he obviously didn't tell them not too when it wasn't working.

Paul Kelly
116 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:14:07
#018

Agree with you on that one Peter.

Jimmy Sørheim
118 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:00:11
I agree, Mirallas should have come on at half time.
Also Neville in midfield is the worst idea ever, he is utter crap as a midfielder it has to be said!

Moyes made a mistake bringing on Hibbert, he has hardly played, plus Osman or Fellaini could have taken Gibson's place and done a better job then Neville does.

It is always something with Moyes, as long as he keeps picking Neville as a midfielder I will be there to judge him for it, it is downright stupid.

The biggest problem overall was the players, they seemed tired for some reason. Maybe they had too little time to prepare for the game, perhaps they should have travelled one day sooner. It was clear that ALL the players were not able to fight 100% like they did in the two previous games.

Ian Bennett
120 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:21:56
Peter - ineffective Naismith. 62 minutes. I think you need to get in the real world. He has played well in a number of games, so to think he would be dragged off any earlier is just crap. 30 minutes for a sub is reasonable.
Dean Adams
121 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:25:52
Well it was a very poor display from the same team that destroyed the Villa a week ago. Our passing was pathetic in the last third, no control and little invention. I would like to blame Moyes but he was not the one playing so poorly. Yes I would say that Gibbo is the pivot at the moment, just like the big Fella was last season in that role. We should have learnt by now that Nev just cant cut it in that role. Our defence is all at sea when the DM is of poor quality.

You win some and you lose some. When you lose you should ensure you don't repeat the same mistakes and for that I would blame Moyes.

Overall, what a totally crap feeling this losing shit is. I hope it does not happen too often this season.
NSNO

Ian Bennett
123 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:32:20
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So Moyes is getting pelters for playing Naismith for 60 minutes, putting Neville into midfield and playing Fellaini up front.

Let's rewind a little bit, Naismith has been stand out in a number of games, as has Fellaini upfront (begs the question he would have got moaned at if we had lost by moving into midfield). Remind where did Neville play against the Mancs?

We lost the game. We weren't at the races, get over it and move on. We will win far many more games than we lose, where Moyes has created a decent squad for a song. He made the right subs in my opinion with what he had available. We are short in the midfield if we want to keep Fellaini upfront, let's hope the new loan signing makes it.

Julian Batti
125 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:41:30
There is nothing wrong in people disagreeing. What I have a problem with is Mr Hudson's if-you-do-not-agree-with-me-then-you-must-be-stupid attitude.

The way I see it, the players had a too light-hearted approach to the game. The punishment was just. Moyes said we should confer a judgement on the team after 10 games; that is precisely what I will be doing.
Dean Adams
126 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:44:43
I guess some people find it offensive to be labelled as the MOB or a Moyesaphile. Some say that there are only two sides, but clearly from the many different excuses/reasons given for our poor performances this is not really the case.

Some on here like to give stick to the Blue Union, but in reality they just believe in EFC and want the best for us, just like the rest of us, I would hope. How we achieve things is where we all differ. None of us will ever know for sure if we are totally right or wrong, but at least the debate allows us to see that other opinions exist, even if we are not willing to embrace them.

Sure I sometimes get annoyed by comments by other posters, but I would never want them to stop being themselves. I have had some "run ins" with others but I don't take it personally, after all, if someone takes exception to my comments and posts in return, then I see that as a sign of respect, that they have acknowledged my existance. If they are rude, as has happened it makes me laugh, sometimes cringe and occasionally annoys me, but hey that is the way life is.

Toffeeweb is what it is and it works because of its faults, long may it last.

Tony Twist
127 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:38:12
Not a nice feeling, losing, I'm sure everyone will agree but it happens. Let's hope the players do the necessary to put things right with the help of the coaches. Moyes really needs to start learning from his mistakes.

The other thing, he just loves his jack of all trades players and playing them in different positions, it time to stop and play players in their rightful positions. Fellaini is not a forward, you can get away with it sometimes but I can't believe that Moyes is that naive to think he can play him in that role week-in and week-out. We need to play midfielders in midfield, defenders in defence etc I think he has the squad for that now.

Plan A not working, he needs a plan B, C, D and E and his players need to know them also off by heart. We are on the verge of great things, let's put things right in the next match.
Karl Masters
128 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:47:18
Phil Neville is a great motivator, but as a central midfielder he is awful. One of the worst passers of the ball at the Club and always has been. He gives it away too easily and is better off at full back where short passes are more the norm.

You would think Moyes would know that by now, but on the other hand he played their against United and we won, and people calling for Mirallas to come on then would have then probably found he couldn't cover the back four at all.

Basically, today has proven how pivotal Gibson is to our system and luckily his stand in, Vadis whatever his name is, will be available in future to cover that position.

I think we just have to move on now and console ourselves that we would have happily accepted six points and top six from the first three fixtures as we ran out against United a couple of weeks ago.

Graham Mockford
129 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:50:16
I may be asking for a lot on here but a little perspective might be required. I posted this morning saying a point would be a good outcome today given we were up against a decent side. One reply described us as 'contenders', utter shite in that after two games it is nonsense to be getting carried away but also in the same vein we are still in the same position broadly as we were this morning, a decent team which has been strengthened during the window. So where has all the optimism gone? (Peter Barry I know you weren't optimistic in the first place!)
Peter Laing
131 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:13:06
If you take a look at the post match interview with Moyes on Skysports Kevin you will actually find that he is accepting responsibility for today's defeat.
Terry White
132 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:11:46
I am unsure where posters see Vadis as a "Gibson stand-in". From what I have seen the man is a cross between YaYa Toure and Patrick Viera and will be playing WITH Gibson, not in place of him or as a back-up.

Looking at the game today it was clear to me that playing Neville in the middle with Osman left us very lightweight in there. Against Man. U., for example, Neville played alongside Gibson and Gibson's loss was clearly crucial to this game. We had nobody in midfield to push forward in support of the front players.

Why did we play in blue today? Last week when we beat Villa we could have played in blue but played in white. Today, too many of our rushed passes found WBA players and I wonder if the two strips were too similar and black would have been a better option for us?

WBA deserved their win. They closed down their defence into the penalty box and Pienaar and Baines were unable to thread the balls through as they have bene doing. Credit to WBA but the game hinged on Gibson's injury and Felli's miss and after that we were well beaten.

Barry Rathbone
133 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:04:07
Not consigning recent "good stuff" to the "false dawn" file just yet .... BUT, reversion to the "bad stuff" when the heat is on is worrying.

Crossing everything that it's a blip, perhaps the team got pissed off having to go down the M6 again.

Piss anyone off that trip.

Peter Mills
135 Posted 01/09/2012 at 20:41:24
There are some very extreme views expressed on here. We played pretty well in the first half and were denied a clear penalty. Against a physical and well organised team we played less well in the second half but should still have taken the lead when Fellaini missed badly. They then scored, and scored a second through dubious tactics at a corner, the referee having already shown that he was pretty weak.
This kind of stuff happens. It's never great to see, but please let's have a bit of perspective. We have started the season well and strengthened the squad, just relax a little.
Kevin Hudson
136 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:22:23
Sure, Peter, I've no problem with Moyes copping some flak after a defeat. I've gave him plenty of it myself, and he should hold up his hands when he thinks it appropriate.

It's simply the disproportionate amount that I object to, and those who want to see him sacked who jump-up when we lose, to dump on him and perpetuate their ideology.

(I know no-ones doing that right now, but there are already vague hints of last seasons narrative returning...after the first defeat).

Dick Fearon
138 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:06:31
Too often we took a dozen passes involving our entire mid field and full backs just to get the ball over the half way line. By then the Baggies back four had built a wall. With our full backs pushed so far forward, it left our two centre backs susceptible to long balls down our flanks.

WBA's game plan was beautiful in its simplicity and end product. Our miserable imitation of Barca's passing style frustrating and fruitless.

This was one of those times when our motto should have been KISS.
John Audsley
139 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:17:37
I think we've all had a shite day at the office haven't we

I hate defeats but we got totally out-played by a team who most of probably didn't rate. We have played very well in the first 2 games and Clarke took full notice of it and worked out how to break us down.

The fact that we didn't have much of a counter was a bigger concern for me and we had so many players off-form.

It's been said by better people than me but we really lack a leader on the pitch; Nev is ok but we really need the kind of bloke who never quits and really rallies the troops. Let's hope this new bloke from Belgium can do that as we need it if we really want to challenge for the top 4.

Heitinga is a leader, I want him back in and I want the others to believe we are a top team

This is no place for quitters or blokes who shirk, not this season... not ever.

Thomas McGrath
142 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:36:16
I am not a great fan of Osman but today he was our best player by a country mile.

I also thought Naismith shouldn't have come off. Teams know now to gang up on our left side as the right side is poor and as been for years. Time for Hibbo and captain Pip to go.

And the ref was awful.
Steve Carse
145 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:46:25
Problems today?

Moyes played with too many going forward, leaving us thin in the centre midfield. At times we had a flat front four, leaving just Osman and AN Other to try and control the midfield! So gone was the linked up football of the season so far. And in the end we reverted to the hoof.

Hopefully it was just an off day. So many played carelessly, complacently, and without fight, against an honest but average opposition.

Jonathan Tasker
148 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:12:24
You know you have problems when Phil Neville is a central midfielder

In 2012 EFC have nil chance of winning the league — it's only now about money.

I long ago ceased getting upset.

David Price
149 Posted 01/09/2012 at 21:58:15
At least one thing has emerged on TW, that Gibson is a lynch pin in our midfield.

Next, Pip, the guy has an unassuming class at right back. I've never seen him troubled by anyone, remember him stifling Gareth Bale when no-one else could.

So today the position looked no hassle before 20 minutes, after the change it was a disaster. I texted my mate at half-time that Pip needs to get back at right back, Hibbo to come off, Fellaini had let the ref get inside his head and needed to drop back with Mirallas to come on up front.

Davey didn't do that so and we ended up losing. However, Fellaini misses a sitter at 0-0 and we ended up losing. That goes in and we win.

Moyes's comments were directed at West Brom's negative first-half tactics. We played like the home side but just got done over. The team did ok but fell well short of what they have delivered recently. They will know this and will want to put it right.

If Gibson isn't fit for Newcastle then Ofoe will start. If you haven't seen this lad play then watch this space: two good feet, can send screamers into the top corner with both.Mirallas will be fully match fit as well and will start on the right, the goals will flow and today will be a decent memory.
Stop the arguing lads, it's petty. No-one's fault today, sometimes shit happens.
Graham Mockford
151 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:16:33
Jonathan you are right,of course we have no chance of winning the league, but then 5 years ago if I was a Man City fan I'd have been saying the same thing so there is always hope.
But reading tonight's posts I am reminded of John Cleese in that much underestimated film Clockwise "It's not the despair, I can take the despair, it's the hope I can't stand."
Kevin Hudson
152 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:30:07
David Price,

Your post is the most sensible one I've read today.

Tony Doran
155 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:43:07
Mr Moyes — if your read this, please play Heitinga in front of the two center halves. No room for Pip now.
Paul Ferry
156 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:53:01
No Tony not there, never, ever, we have the players to play there mate. It's very simple, Jags and Distin were shocking today, good the other day(s), and too inconsistent by far. Mr Moyes, get Johnny back in the middle of the defense FFS
Ian Bennett
157 Posted 01/09/2012 at 22:52:18
Tony - no, no, no. Heitinga at centre back, the new Belgian lad a back up centre midfield. He is a Belgian international with real promise. Round pegs in round holes surely.
Paul Joy
158 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:01:37
I was in the stands with 2000 odd blues this afternoon – we showed up. The team that has played such good football in every game this season didn't.

A poor performance all round but not only were we out-played on the pitch, we were out-fought too – particularly by their 2 centre midfielders who just bossed the game from start to finish. Also we were out-thought off the pitch by Clarke vs Moyes – he did his homework, particularly on Fellaini and Pienaar.

We had plan A and when that wasn't working, what did we do? – Plan A... and when we went a goal down – Plan A plus Victor.

Not a good day for the team, the manager and indeed the bloody referee who was dreadful. West Brom put in a shift and did their homework – fair play to them today.
Phil Sammon
159 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:16:58
Tony

What a load of gibberish.

Mike Green
160 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:06:03
Moyes says in MOTD interview that he went for it, it didn't pay off, maybe he should've settled for 0-0. Hopefully he'll try to still go for it, and if we lose some then we lose some - draws are like faulty gas fires, you take comfort from them but at the end of the day they're killers.

Hopefully Gibson injury not too bad, let's take a deep breath and smash the Mags!

COYB!

Tom Bowers
161 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:29:40
It was almost inevitable that we would lose today after all the hype and euphoria of the last two weeks. How many times has this happened in the last few years?

Just when we think we are ready to step up to the next level, we produce an inept display which looked on the cards after Pienaar got chopped and the Gibson went off. We played to their strengths and did not have the ability to change the approach work.

Everton were good at the sideways 2-yard pass until we got to the final third. A bad miss by Fella proved so costly almost immediately and that was it. Everton very poor at coming from behind even when there is plenty of time left.

Having said all that, it was only one defeat and Albion are no pushovers these days. Hopefully Moyes can rally the troops for the Barcode game but hopefully today's game will be a rarity.
Sam Hoare
162 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:20:58
Any reports on how long Gibson might be out for?

I said a few days ago that although we have a really strong starting XI that an injury to Gibson, Pienaar, Jelavic or Fellaini could leave us in trouble. That was slightly shown to be the case today though some credit must go to West Brom who I thought defended very well.

I think if the four players above are fit and playing then we will win more games than we lose.

Noel Lynam
163 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:39:52
"“Maybe when it was 0-0 I should have settled for a draw but I wanted a bit more than that.” [Emphasis added].

You missed that last bit out. I think it makes a huge difference in interpretation. At worst, it belies a conviction that he feels we could have got a point if he had them playing KITAP1 in the second half rather than going for it. But in the process he firmly blames the players for the loss, and takes no blame himself, which is a pity."

Michael, that's an interesting conclusion to draw although I am struggling to see how you feel those words show that Moyes is blaming the players and absolving himself of any blame.

If anything, I would say he is blaming himself, in that he wanted more than a 0-0, so he went for the victory, but got caught out and ended up losing. That's how I interpreted his words, but then again, I wasn't especially looking for a stick to beat him with.

Colin Malone
164 Posted 01/09/2012 at 23:34:26
Fellaini, lacks dicipline and concentration, we cannot play the top four every week, get a grip Fellaini.

Osman, loan him out to the Wigan warriors, forget the quick feet, learn how to muscle opposition off the ball.

Liam Morton
165 Posted 02/09/2012 at 00:23:54
Hope Gibson is back for the skunks! We were totally in control until he went off. I'd like to see Gibson and Odjidja in the withdrawn midfield roles and Fellaini off Jelavic.

Mirallas needs to start down the right as well, I don't like seeing central midfielders like Osman and Naismith out there to be honest.

Disappointing result but I'm sure this was just a blip, I'm sure we'll come back stronger. COYB!
Michael Kenrick
166 Posted 02/09/2012 at 00:48:45
Liam (#086) — Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to the rest of the piece on the OS where he blames the players for the defeat.
Mike Powell
167 Posted 02/09/2012 at 00:42:50
Here we go... we have lost a game and they're all out the woodwork. The ref was a twat but you have got to give WBA their due — they played like the Dogs of War... if we played liked that last year, we would all be made up that we got a win. FFS we are not going to win every game. COYB.
Col Noon
168 Posted 02/09/2012 at 02:07:27
This is a reality check, nothing more. We are some way from the finished article but are improving. This is as strong as a squad as we have had since I can remember. We will be fine.
Si Cooper
169 Posted 02/09/2012 at 02:21:00
This is so simple.

Gibson plus Neville, Gibson plus Osman, Gibson plus Fellaini - all workable partnerships. Heitinga plus Osman, Fellaini plus Osman, possible back-up plans. Neville plus Osman - never in a million years.

Ossie and Pip can play CM, but only with a complementary partner. Together they are too slow and too weak.

Hibbert and Ossie down the right - a proven bad defensive combination. For their first goal Hibbert ended up with two players to deal with on his own! Saw this goal first as isolated highlight - first thought was "Is Ossie playing right midfield?"

Great cross (strikers dream, defenders nightmare) and people are blaming Jagielka for not being superman and cutting it out.

Second goal - Howard had to battle past a WBA player and people have a go at him and not Fellaini for totally losing his man in front of goal.

Pienaar and Baines have great track record together - should only be separated by necessity, not choice imo. Mirallas should have gone centre or right to keep WBA defenders in these areas.

Easy to be clever after the event I know, but I would never have chosen the options that DM chose after Gibson had to go off.

Peter Thistle
170 Posted 02/09/2012 at 04:08:45
You win some you lose some. Maybe it's best to get a loss out the way to keep the players ( and fans ) grounded. Osman and Neville in central midfield tho, nooooooooooo.
Anto Byrne
172 Posted 02/09/2012 at 01:59:39
The ref was indeed a twat, I concur... since when is a tackle from behind in the box "Play on", ffs?? And stopping play and taking the ball back 40 yards when advantage was clearly the call? FFS, tape on socks the wrong colour...

Albion kicked seven sorts for the first half-hour yet the twat books 4 nothing challenges, Neville point in question. We were the better side just didn't get the breaks today so not concerned. Albion will fall away in a few weeks, that high intensity game won't last.
Anto Byrne
173 Posted 02/09/2012 at 06:29:06
In retrospect, it's all very well to point out DM's tactical ploy of moving Neville and playing Hibbo but we controlled the game and they didn't tear us apart or miss chance after chance, I had expected DM to batton down the hatches and settle for a draw once Gibson went off but, hey, give the man some credit — he went for a win. So good for DM and if he maintains this positive outlook, we will win a lot more games than we draw.

I thought Naismith was off the pace but overall did a very good job for 60 mins. Osman dictated the midfield while having lumps kicked out of him. Both Baines and Pienaar took heavy knocks completely overlooked by this absolutely dire referee.

I'm not convinced that Fellaini is the man for the Cahill role; yeah ok he can go forward but I would much prefer him along side Gibson breaking up play and feeding the ball forward, maybe arriving late into the box for a header. He really should have buried that chance but that's football. There is always next time. Bring on the Barcodes and let normal service be resumed.
Peter Barry
174 Posted 02/09/2012 at 06:52:28
Graham Mockford (#043) 10 years of Moyes Mediocrity is enough to wipe out anyone's optimism. Still could be worse: lots of the Kiddies who post on here have to come down from the ceiling and maybe rethink their Wembley FA Cup travel plans for this year and Champions League holidays that they were fantasising about after just TWO games.
Ian Bennett
175 Posted 02/09/2012 at 07:32:30
Si – Heitinga is not a midfielder. People on the site bang on about Neville not being a midfielder, well Heitinga is the same or worse.

This points out why we neede another body in the middle who is a specialist defensive midfielder. Let's hope he cuts the mustard.

Ian Bennett
176 Posted 02/09/2012 at 07:44:16
Go on then, Peter, predict our season?
Bobby Mallon
177 Posted 02/09/2012 at 08:15:26
Jesus some people on here need to take a reality check. Saying Mirallas is not Prem standard for godsake, he's only just come to the bloody Prem — give him a chance.

We lost 1 game if you would have said to me at the beginning of the season that we would have 6 points going into the international break I would have bitten your hand off. We have beaten Man Utd after how long and also done a job on Villa who we never seem to beat. So cheer up lads.
Paul Gladwell
178 Posted 02/09/2012 at 08:56:41
Peter, many of those kiddies go the games and see things differently to the Internet warriors on their stalling streams.

I'm seriously optimistic After what I have witnessed close up; yesterday we lost because our top players like Baines and Pienaar had their worst games I can remember. Shit happens but we can certainly challenge up the top.

Moyes played the same team that produced in my opinion the best 45 minutes since 87 last week and yet we have lads on here questioning his starting eleven. I'm his biggest critic but let's be fair eh, some of the bollocks I read on here I just see a pattern with the paying blue and the Internet blue.
Ernie Baywood
179 Posted 02/09/2012 at 09:32:37
Who criticized the starting 11? Most are simply commenting that, when a change was both needed and forced upon him, he took a backwards step.
Ken Crowther
180 Posted 02/09/2012 at 09:05:46
Paul Gladwell...love it!

Particularly the first paragraph!

Paul Gladwell
181 Posted 02/09/2012 at 09:52:52
Ernie, just above Peter has commented about Osman and Neville in CM someone else thought Naismith should not have played as he has not looked that good.
We can all say (me included) he should not have thrown Neville in, but he was no doubt basing things on the fact Neville had a great game there against Man Utd.
Hopefully now that is the end of Neville in CM but I like Osman, he played no worse than Pienaar and Baines.
Peter is telling people they should not get all confident on the back of two great wins, well maybe we should not go all doom and gloom on the back of one loss.
Everyone had a stinker yesterday, players like Baines who does not have stinkers, maybe some lads should chill, I have been slated by my mates all week as I have been a Moyes boo boy in the past, but some of the stuff I read on here is baffling, I came home from a bouncing happy Villa park last week reading the live thread and some of the shite wrote about our second half performance was pathetic.
Let's move on I'm sure we will get a response against the Geordies.
Barry Sherlock
182 Posted 02/09/2012 at 10:45:11
Michael,

You say;
I think it's hugely important that we win the games we play. I absolutely hate the mindset that says it's okay for us to lose one now and again, here and there. That is the attitude of a loser.

Really???

Come on. Considering where we are. Considering we have beaten Man Utd already this season Moyes isn't a loser. He doesn't have the mindset of a loser. Now, I know you weren't actually talking about Moyes. But, I don't think that Evertonians who have this attitude are losers either. Within the very competitive world of the PL I think it's called being a realist. That is looking at it after the fact. Going into the game with that attitude - that's different.

If you are talking about say, Usain Bolt. Your are right. He should never be happy when he loses. But football is different. Things happen within a game that change a game dramatically.

We should have had a pen. The ref was really bad (I thing it was his first ever PL game).
The ball was bouncing horribly as Felliani was about to hit it.

We lost a very important player in Gibson. In a few weeks Moyes will have Oh-did-ya to play in that role. Yesterday he didn't. Kevin Morales will have more games under his belt. He looked very tired after the Orient game.

I too accept yesterday as just one of those days. We have been playing some lovely football. We lost this game. But there is a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. We will get better as the season goes on.

COYB. IMWT.

Graham Mockford
183 Posted 02/09/2012 at 11:51:15
Peter #129 well we sort of agree to a point. A lot of people had raised expectations to an unrealistic level on the basis of a decent run but that doesn't mean we should not be optimistic. The squad is in the best shape it has been for five years and we have 6 points from 9.
So whilst some people will have to re- evaluate their expectations you are free to carry on spouting your negativity for at least the whole of the international break now you have come out of hiding this season.
Sondre Haga
184 Posted 02/09/2012 at 14:22:54
Dissapointing performance yesterday. When we could build momentum, I feel Moyes on the day, with that defensive game plan, maybe killed some of the enthusiasm and spirit we had built up from the two first games.

I think it's very worrying what Moyes says after the game, that he should not have bought on Mirrallas and kept the same tactics till the end. Mirrallas decided to play for us to get more time on the pitch, I really hope he will. Let the players believe in themselves, attack the opposition...

Anyway, 6 points from these three games is a positive start. After 12 games the defeat had to come eventually.

Mike Powell
185 Posted 02/09/2012 at 15:25:38
I have said many a time on here that we need a right-sided player — that as always been our weakest part off the team. I honestly think we need both a right back and a right winger... hopefully Mirallas will be that right winger; time will tell.

You have to give WBA their due – they played to their strengths and deserved the win – but how bad was that ref? We had a clear pen and every time we put a tackle in, we got booked, while they were kicking every thing what moved and getting away with it.

Oh well, back down to earth... but I still think this is the best squad we have had for a long while.
Mark Lennon
186 Posted 02/09/2012 at 15:55:31
Wasn't too bad a weekend. Although gutted about yesterday, my Sunday League side won and I just watched the RS gettin walloped. Two weeks off and we will be refreshed, mistakes worked on, and then another masterclass against the Toon.
Si Cooper
187 Posted 02/09/2012 at 15:36:16
Ian (#132) - that is the reason I had 'Heitinga plus Osman' as a possible back-up combination.

Heitinga is able to play a raking pass, which isn't really in Neville or Osman's skill set. Heitinga, on paper at least, isn't radically different to Gibson. In circumstances like yesterday's he should be one of our options and should be able to do more than Neville in that position.

The ability to see and deliver a long distance pass on a flat trajectory is one of the things that Gibson probably does better than almost anyone else in our current squad apart from Baines (probably goes hand in hand with long range shooting and corner delivery), and if Gibson is not available then you have to find someone to play a similar way or use a different approach entirely.

I am really worried that Heitinga is a second-choice behind Neville when Gibson goes off, and I am sure it will not impress him either. I would be shocked if he is happy with how little he is being used and if his only role is as a replacement for Jagielka or Distin, then I would expect him to be looking for a move come January.

Going forward, I hope Odjidja-Ofoe will make any need for Neville or Heitinga obsolete. Until that happens, if you want Fellaini to stay further upfield, then Heitinga has to be in the mix.

John Audsley
188 Posted 02/09/2012 at 21:07:14
I thought Distin was awful yesterday. he was superb against Man Utd but from the first minute he looked ropey yesterday.

I think a lot of what worked from January onwards was the spine of Heitinga - Gibson/Fellani - Jelavic.

JH and Gibbo are classy players who can pass and rarely hoof, yesterday after Gibbo departed we didn't have a natural ball player in Centre Midfield. Pienaar can do that job and I think at certain points this season he might but he had a poor game yesterday too.

We got out played and almost every player had a mare but plenty of time to sort the problems out and move on.

We have plenty of players who can pass and read the game well, its very important that we use them rather than HOOF.......

Sam Hoare
189 Posted 02/09/2012 at 21:30:37
Si Cooper. I'm also not a fan of Neville but there is no way that 'Heitinga, on paper at least, isn't radically different to Gibson'.

Heitinga is really not much better than Neville in central midfield. He has better passing but worse positioning for my liking and is easily bypassed. Neither of them is a fit replacement for Gibson so let's hope that Ofoe is or that Gibson's injury is not too bad.

Robin Cannon
190 Posted 02/09/2012 at 22:23:31
I imagined that there'd be a lot of people quick (...happy?) to point out the immense tactical failings of Moyes' terrible management, as soon as we'd lost this one.

From a tactical standpoint it doesn't really seem like there was much different from the first two games of the season (...remember those? We won). Moving Neville into midfield; debatable, but understandable why he didn't want to move Fellaini back given the positive impact he's had up front to start the season.

Sometimes there's Everton games where I just watch us for a few minutes and know that it's gonna be a crappy day and a defeat. Vast majority of our failure wasn't any massive tactical disaster, but the fact that most of the same players who'd been pinging the ball about with glee at Villa Park, suddenly couldn't seem to help but find a WBA shirt with a five-yard pass.

Si Cooper
191 Posted 02/09/2012 at 23:06:42
Sam, you do know what 'on paper at least' means don't you? It means that if you listed both players attributes there would be a lot of similarities, but that that doesn't necessarily translate into what you see on the pitch.

The possibility exists that if you take a similar player to your ideal and work on their deficiencies then you can get something nearly as good. If you take someone who is radically different then you have a harder job to reproduce the effect you want. In that regard Heitinga should be the better bet, assuming he is willing to work to overcome his deficiencies.

The point I was trying to make is that the manager and coaching staff should understand better than anyone what makes their formations work. To me leaving Fellaini upfield and having Neville and Osman together further back was the combination least likely to bear fruit out of those the manager had available, but that is just my opinion. My first choice would have been to bring Fellaini back, put Mirallas on the right and use Naismith in the middle.

Richard Reeves
192 Posted 03/09/2012 at 11:57:48
Si Cooper, I couldn't agree more.

The problem that Moyes brings on himself is this reluctance to go with his strongest team and to ask players to do a job in a position that they are average in. Like you, I would like to see Mirallas on the right, Naismith just behind Jelly, Pienaar on the left, and Gibson and Fellaini as defensive midfielders.

When inevitably as it has happened that Gibson gets injured (who I think is one of the essential cogs in the wheel), then we have Vadis to come in and, if reports are true on our new signing, then even Gibson and Fellaini could be fighting for their position.

I'm no football manager but I swear this set up will strike fear into the opposition and why wouldn't it work? The Naismith and Jelly combination is proven, the same with Pienaar as we all know, and Mirallas is good on the right of midfield which is where I'd prefer him as it would give more attacking options and allow the ex-Rangers pair of getting back their understanding.

Fellaini has been good up front recently but his best position is defensive midfield and he can be moved further forward as the season goes on if we start getting injuries. I just wish Moyes would stick with his strongest team irrelevant of the opposition and get them used to playing in the same position instead of tinkering.

As for our defense, I'm not so sure; personally I'd like to see Coleman at right back and would like to see Duffy getting more game time along with Heitinga and Baines inevitably on the left.

The worry for me as ever with Moyes is that he finds somewhere for players that at very best should be second or third option, like Anichebe and Osman. Anichebe shouldn't even be at Everton but Osman can do a job as an attacking central midfielder but only if first-choice players cannot play for whatever reason, like injury, suspension or International duty.

Most teams that win things have a team selection that they generally stick to, only changing slightly when they have to. It's a recipe that's worked for a long time.
Robin Cannon
193 Posted 04/09/2012 at 18:00:31
@Richard - I'd tend to agree with a lot of that.

I can definitely see the argument for playing Fellaini as the support man against Manchester United. It made perfect sense to use his height and physicality to directly attack a weakness in the United defence at the time.

Having played so well in that game, in that position, it then seemed to me that Moyes didn't feel comfortable changing a winning formation. But in the long term, I think it would be the better option. Using Fellaini up front against United made sense, but it requires significant sacrifices in our defensive midfield setup if it's going to be a long term option.

I definitely thought that the signing of Naismith meant that our "default" this season would be a central midfield two of Gibson and Fellaini, with Naismith playing behind Jelavic. With Mirallas adding quality on the right, and Pienaar on the left, that definitely seems like the best formation.

There's room for flexibility within that - and that's why Fellaini up front against injury hit United and Dunne-less Aston Villa made sense. Unfortunately, what I saw against West Brom was that what I'd initially seen as welcome tactical flexibility from Moyes then became INFLEXIBILITY because Fellaini had performed well.

While I understand the concept of not changing something that had worked well for the first two games, seems to me that it worked *because* it allowed Fellaini to target a specific weakness in the opposition defence. The potential loss of depth in central midfield was outweighed by the advantage Fellaini brought up front. Against West Brom, Fellaini was negated up front and so our midfield weakness became more apparent - the benefits no longer outweighed the costs.

Mick Davies
194 Posted 05/09/2012 at 00:37:56
I only got as far as about 20 posts on here then I couldn't take any more. When will some of you realise how shite Moyes/Round are when it comes to addressing problems out on the pitch?

One idiot even blamed Jags for not cutting out the cross when it was Hibbert who stayed about 5 yards away from his player then kung fu kicked thin air when he should have been tight enough to affect the quality at least.

As one or two have sensibly argued, when Gibson went off, we were in the ascendency, so keeping an attacking flow to our game should have been the right tactic. Instead of the crusty old Hibbert, Moyes should have either: pulled Felli back into MF and brought Mirallas on to give him even more game time at least; or introduced Coleman to give us some kind of attacking threat on the right.

Instead, he reverted to type and put the white flag up again. He then said on the telly that he made a mistake of changing to an attacking formation after Gibbo went off!!!!! Neville, a right back in MF? I would rather have lost 4-3 than 2-0, now we know we are not going for the title, but just the perennial 40 points
Robin Cannon
195 Posted 05/09/2012 at 16:35:57
White flag? Please.

I understand criticism of Moyes, but seriously - there's a degree to which it just becomes ridiculous.

At twenty minutes into any game, an injury usually means as close to a "like for like" change as possible. In this case, Neville covering for Gibson and Hibbert replacing Neville, thus allowing us to keep our most potent player in the first two games in the position in which he'd been so successful.

It didn't subsequently work, of course, in part due to the fact that Fellaini was neutralized far more effectively by the West Brom defence than Villa or United, and also because the team that had played so effectively at Villa suddenly seemed unable to effectively pass to a teammate within five yards.

Hindsight's a great thing, and there are reasonable arguments for doing things differently. At the point at which you start picking up every possible thing as "proof" to maintain exaggerated prejudices (good or bad) about Moyes's management style it becomes a pointless exercise.


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