Moyes not happy with officials

, 7 October, 66comments  |  Jump to most recent
David Moyes bemoaned the performance of the officials during his side's 2-2 draw against Wigan on Saturday. Wigan striker Arouna Kone was offside for Maloney's near-post cross. "I think we had a really rough day with the decisions today," he told reporters.

"What we got, we earned ourselves. The first goal (from Kone) was offside, definitely, half a yard offside.

"The linesman is nowhere (near) in line. I've had a look and he's three or four yards behind the ball."

"A thoroughly deserved point," Moyes said.

"We didn't do enough (in the first half). We played really well in the second half, Kevin Mirallas has a great chance and the keeper's made a great save."

"Baines's penalty was fantastic," he said. "His performance was up there with as good as anything. I'm glad he didn't miss today."

Quotes or other material sourced from Sportal.au.com



Reader Comments (66)

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Steve Guy
1 Posted 07/10/2012 at 16:22:58
Can't disagree with him quite frankly. With more consistent refereeing we would have won. Wigan did to us what we used to do to teams: break up the play, get in their faces, nick goals on the break. Part of stepping up is learning how to cope with it which is where we are now. I hope Gibson is back in time for the next game as I think he will make a difference in this regard. We live in interesting times.
Mike Powell
2 Posted 07/10/2012 at 16:49:33
I am convinced that the officials have been told to give us nothing. The people who run the FA don't want us in the top four. I know it sounds like sour grapes but how many times do these decisions go against us???
Shane Corcoran
3 Posted 07/10/2012 at 18:17:15
Mike, to put it mildly, I think you're wrong.
I think in the non-conspiracy world we should recognise the difference between some of the decisions we've been on the end of.

I defended the linesman for Fellaini's offside goal against Newcastle as it was a very very difficult decision to call. And I'm also still not convinced that ALL of the ball was over the line for Anichibe's goal in the same game.

But in the case of Kone's goal yesterday, he was in an offside position well before the ball was played. It wasn't a case of the defender moving out and he moving in at the same time making it difficult to judge. It was a plain and simple bad decision.

But the conspiracy stuff is starting to get tired now.

Paul Johnson
4 Posted 07/10/2012 at 18:55:52
Shane how are you not convinced that Anichebes effort crossed the line.
Edward Simpson
6 Posted 07/10/2012 at 18:52:02
Shane, I sort of agree with you.
There is no conspiracy at all, and if some people think that then I think they are very bitter.
Yes, we were unfortunate not to win against Newcastle, but again we didn't manage to close out the game, we have only ourselves to blame.
Similar to the Wigan, we had 11 shots on target, with only 2 goals scored, we only have ourselves to blame. And frankly I'm fed up with fans (regardless of which club) who think that there is some sort of conspiracy or bias with some referees, since the hype round the Liverpool/Man U game came around.

I'm just glad that w did manage to get a point, how pissed off would most of us be on here if we lost? But I suppose a draw when we are losing for 55 mins isn't good enough eh? It was for me.

Nick Waters
7 Posted 07/10/2012 at 19:41:19
Shane – it doesn't actually matter what you think in respect of the Newcastle decisions. We scored two goals within the laws of the game and yet they were not allowed to stand.

It won't matter one jot in the eyes of the officials at any future game, because we don't bitch about being hard gone to, and the refs DO think, 'so what, it's only Everton' and the mainstream media won't highlight it beyond 24 hrs in any case,

Look at ratface today, There has been media talk about him not getting penalties in his last 2 games. He then blatantly dives today but escapes a yellow because the refs are mindful of the brouhaha, (On the other hand it could have been because the ref today was Lee Mason, who is of course.... shit.)
Matt Traynor
8 Posted 07/10/2012 at 20:00:50
Shane #542, thank fuck you're not a referee.
Yesterday was another example of a linesman, or referee's assistant, not doing his job. In the first half Mr Scholes missed a pretty blatant offside goal. We were behind the goal, so obviously paralax wasn't an issue for us, but we knew it was off.

Second half he missed (I assume by virtue of his not flagging) many fouls, throw ins etc because I think he was waiting for the ref to make the decisions for him, and his flag waving was merely to re-affirm his boss' decision. Some refs insist on that...

Going back to the Newcastle game, some loon is now claiming cos players are wearing white boots, it makes it harder to judge on offsides! Fellaini was not offside. I can accept officials make mistakes, but he wasn't offside.

There is now shadow technology being used for the goal-line decisions. That Anichebe goal was over the line. Some tosspot pundit (think it was Townsend) was suggesting the asst ref would've got a better view if he was stood behind the touch line, "as the goal post is in the way". Words fail...

Peter Laing
9 Posted 07/10/2012 at 20:20:50
Good to see Moyes coming out and having a pop at the officials. Over the years Ferguson and Wenger have become masters at the art of spewing bile towards referee's when they are on the end of dodgy decisions, in my opinion it sows the seed that we will complain at every decision and injustice.
Matt Traynor
10 Posted 07/10/2012 at 20:29:28
Peter #561 good point. I forgot to add to my earlier post, one of the biggest myths in football is "these things even themselves out". They don't. It's been analysed to death, and there's a clear bias towards the media darlings.

Martin, if you want to challenge me on this - don't. Do your own research instead of asking everyone else to. Except, this does kind of reinforce your small club argument, so no need to.

Andy Meighan
11 Posted 07/10/2012 at 20:51:06
I'm delighted Moyes had a go, he was totally right. He should have come out after the Newcastle game and lambasted the 3 pot herbs who officiated that night . That won't be the last game we get decisions against. It's because we're not one of the Sky babes.

And I see Tony Pullis has come out and called Cilla Black an embarrassment today. Fucking right. What a vile specimen of a human being this thing is. I'm dreading the derby because the cheating bastard is bound to get a pen against us... or is that me being paranoid? Nah, thought not.
Nick Entwistle
12 Posted 07/10/2012 at 20:52:22
Just to throw it out there... 1 Did the kick against Jelavic's ankle have him feigning injury? 2, Despite the push in the box, did Jelavic take a dive? 3, Did Mirallas dive for the penalty? 4, Did Fellaini leave an elbow in?

Me? I'm a yes, no, no, no... but I'm not 100% sure!

Paul David
13 Posted 07/10/2012 at 21:04:57
Yes, yes, yes and no.

I'll give Mirallas the benefit of the doubt but I'm sick of Jelavic throwing himself to the floor. If he got on with the fucking game, he might get more decisions.

Matt Traynor
14 Posted 07/10/2012 at 21:13:00
Sadly Jelavic has already got himself a reputation á la the clown across the park. At least he can stick away the chances he does stay on his feet for. Take note Vic.

Yesterday, and I only realised this after watching MotD, the two Mirallas chances in the second half – Jelavic was screaming for the ball when better placed both times.

I don't think they will ever gel in the same way that, for example/argument, Sharp and Heath did.

Ian Bennett
15 Posted 07/10/2012 at 21:19:40
Matt - Mirallas was the same against Newcastle. If he can learn off pienaar to play the little pocket pass when jelavic drops into the slot, we will be laughing. Mirallas if you read this take the blinkers off!
Matt Traynor
16 Posted 07/10/2012 at 21:31:24
Ian I know, I posted similar thoughts after that game. The reason I don't think they'll click is they are both incredibly selfish, and that necessarily isn't a bad thing. But because he's been here a bit longer, has an eye for goal, and my significant other hails from Zagreb, I'll go with Jelly on this.
Chris Leyland
17 Posted 07/10/2012 at 21:57:43
Paul David, Ask yourself this, why on earth would Jelavic dive for the one when he was caught on the ankle? He'd brilliantly controlled it and bought himself time to bury it. Did he think "I know, I'm clean through here and I'm actually a fantastic finisher, what I will do is throw myself to the floor in the hope that instead of me scoring Bainsey can hopefully put it away from further out than I am now?"
Shane Corcoran
18 Posted 07/10/2012 at 22:16:58
In response:

Edward # 549, glad you agree.

Nick # 555, what I say doesn't matter but this is a discussion forum so if you don't mind. I disagree that all of the ball was over the line for Anichibe's effort. On any replay I've seen I can't see a gap between the line and the ball but I stand to be corrected. Fellaini was played on by the defender's leg. I hear that it's any part of the body that counts so Fellaini is onside. People have said that it's the head. But you seem 100% certain that both were goals. Does it matter what you think? And then the rest of your post turns into conspiracy and name calling.

Matt, #558 I said I thought that the Kone decision was a poor one so we're in agreement. Where (in my original post) did I disagree with anything you subsequently said? Just wondering about the "thank fuck you're not a referee" comment.

And now there are comments about giving officials shit in the media etc. If any other club, especially Liverpool, were do any such thing they'd be slated on here to put it mildly. But it seems that us (rightfully IMO) disagreeing with such behaviour isn't working so now some think we should follow suit and be a whinging shower of old women. Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the game as a whole. Everybody moans about everybody else. Managers moan about refs, players dive and playact, fans moan about everyone. Sorry, rant over.

Matt Traynor
19 Posted 07/10/2012 at 22:27:59
Chris #581, he didn't dive, but he went down easy. I think one of the commentators said it was 50:50. They key to which bit of the 50 you get is whether the ref has you marked as someone who is a diver. Jelavic has that reputation. It's not entirely deserved compared to some others, but he, like Vic, will suffer from it.

A corollary to your question is, if a player does dive, and we've seen some who've dived when in goalscoring positions - why does he do it? Is it a lack of belief in themselves, or just cos that's what they were trained to do? Your "logic" argument doesn't have, well, any logic.

Ian Bennett
20 Posted 07/10/2012 at 22:40:24
Matt - I don't think most people have him as a diver. Most people just hail his one touch goal scoring return and intelligent movement. Not sure if you are an international blue or local, but I honestly haven't heard the diving tag locally.
Lee Mandaracas
21 Posted 07/10/2012 at 22:38:55
Edward (549) - How can you possibly say we didn't manage to close out the game against Newcastle and, therefore, didn't deserve to win? We scored five goals and only one was legitimately disallowed. Another two were illegitimately disallowed (there was clear daylight between the ball and the line for Anichebe's goal to be fair) so according to my reckoning a 4-2 win is very much closing the game out and, as such, we have every right to feel aggrieved.

Yesterday's decisions were equally laughable. Kone's goal was clearly offside, a point quite rightly undisputed by anyone so far. We had four penalty shouts in that match and one was awarded (for either of the two fouls between Anichebe being wrestled to the ground by Coldwell and Mirallas being clipped)

The first penalty I will accept could go either way. Jelavic's foot was clearly struck but the ball was also connected so I would say let that one go. When he was shoved in the back in mid air Jelavic had every right to hit the deck and that is a penalty in any match you will see fairly officiated. I thought Coldwell was bang out of order for the entire match yesterday - especially in his leading the charge for Fellaini being sent off. For me, he could easily take the title as the new snide, dirty wrestler of the Premiership as Carragher retires!

The upshot IMHO is that we should have two points more from the Newcastle game and two points more from the Wigan one by virtue of the refused penalty(ies) and offside goal against.

Right now I believe we should be one point behind Chelsea with our only dropped points quite deservedly from the WBA away game. Instead I am now looking at how many teams around us are on the same points and we dropped two places. I am not saying I expect that to be our finishing place (would be nice though) but we are only seven games in and my euphoria is starting to wain all because of officials, not players. That is plain wrong.

Lee Mandaracas
22 Posted 07/10/2012 at 22:59:05
By the way, to emphasise my Coldwell point, I believe it was also him the elbowed and shoved Jelavic in the back, causing him to go down for 'penalty' number two. I thought better of Wigan as a team than what I saw yesterday. Sportsmanship relegated and gamesmanship promoted at the DW Stadium
Ciarán McGlone
23 Posted 07/10/2012 at 23:05:23
Lee,

The second one was a dive.

Yes. Wigan were dirty.. especially whenever Fellaini elbowed and kicked people... Oh wait...

Chris Leyland
24 Posted 07/10/2012 at 23:10:05
Matt, fair point but watch Jelavic in most games and you will see him berate other players for not passing to him and instead going for goal when they don't score. They man is a goalscorer who wants the glory for himself. He will always bet on himself rather than someone else. Other supposd divers are not as good finishers as he is and therefore play the percentages but with Jelavic the percentages favour him scoring. That's my logic in saying why it was definately a pen.
Drew O'Neall
25 Posted 07/10/2012 at 23:23:47
Andy 567

Just seen the shite match on MoTD, Suarez fell at the feet of Huth in the first half and he did the right thing and attempted an extermination as you would if the opportunity of squashing a cockroach presented itself, as it transpired the Uruguayan proved to be equally robust as his six legged cousin and lived to dive around the field for the rest of the match to the amusement of all.. As usual St Steven escaped the post match analysis for similar hystrionics.

Dave White
26 Posted 08/10/2012 at 00:17:37
Just to play devil's advocate Fellaini did buy one for Anichebe with his hand against the Swans. Of course winning 3-0 means it's not then such an issue.

I can forgive the linesman for the Fellaini 'goal' v Newcastle, in real time I think most of us would've thought he was offside. However how the linesman missed Kone's today I haven't a fucking clue, it wasn't even a quick move. The fat fucker just hadn't caught up with play, very very poor.

Dave White
27 Posted 08/10/2012 at 00:30:03
And to echo previous comments, I'd be fucking embarassed if we had Suarez playing for us. Vile is the word and I hope Felli boots him 10 feet up in the air in the derby.

If the authorities can go back and (rightly) punish Naismith for his elbow why the fuck can they not retrospectively punish that buck toothed cocksucker for diving?

Keith Glazzard
28 Posted 08/10/2012 at 00:28:52
Lee, I think I agree with you point for point. Jelavic was first kicked from behind in the box, then shoved from behind on the box. In both cases the ball wasn't in front of him when a defender came in from behind. Is this, in either case, a playable ball? No. Sorry to quote the laws of the game, here, but some people don't seem to think they don't apply because Jelavic is a "diver", and we don't want that sort of thing round here thank you very much.

He isn't. He's a very talented out and out striker (who actually helps out much better than that) and he gets fouled,- a lot. And he gets no 'protection' from refs. You'll have to ask them why.

On a matter of the laws as applied yesterday. What was our penalty given for? Mr Friend was never asked, and no doubt would have refused to answer anyway. It had to be for Vic being wrestled, Carragher style, to the deck.. Because if it wasn't, and it was Figuera's trip on Mirallas, he should have been sent off. Kevin had only the keeper to beat. I do believe that the FA call that a clear goal-scoring opportunity.

Last point on officials, repeating myself, but I want people to think about this. If and when 'goal-line technology' is introduced, who will make the decision as to whether a goal has been scored or not? And how?

Bear with me. The decision of a ref in any match is sacrosanct. If he says a goal has been scored and restarts the game, it can't be rescinded. if that affects the result, it can't be changed. If a goal has been scored, as at Newcastle, but not awarded, and the game carries on, what happens next? A voice in his ear - from? A named official? Someone who can overrule, as it were, an officiating referee? A machine perhaps? The FA will never accept this. There's still avery long way to go on this one.

ps - Nekybroons are going to say something about these things evening themselves out because the ManU 'keeper' scooped one off the line today, and it was a marginal decision. But they're still two points up and we're two points down on that transaction as they would have only lost 3-1, whereas we would have won 3-2. Evens itself out? Absolute bollocks.

Keith Glazzard
29 Posted 08/10/2012 at 01:12:18
Obviously - in contrast to what I typed, in both cases Jelavic had controlled the ball and it was in front of him. A player approaching from behind has no legal way of being within playable distance of it.

I know some feel that the second, the push from behind, clearly a more obvious penalty to me, was a 'dive' because he hit the deck, some would say too easily. Go and ask Caldwell for a kick-around on the park and find out for yourself.

But imagine Mr Friend officiating at, eg, Old Trafford. Rooney has just controlled the ball about 8 yards out, his right foot is about to strike the ball goalwards. A defender catches that foot, the ball skews away and Rooney goes down in a heap - which he is. What, I wonder does Mr Friend award? Perhaps we'll never know.

And those loveable Geordies are of course Newkybroons, not what I said.

Si Cooper
30 Posted 08/10/2012 at 01:15:43
Ossie, Pienaar and Arteta have all shown a propensity to take a dubious tumble in the Everton cause; for me Jelavic has some way to go before he can be labelled an embarassment for his attempts to simulate fouls were none have occurred.

Jelavic goes down easy at times but that doesn't make a shove in the back when you are in the air less of a foul. Defenders do it all the time but live with the risk that it won't be spotted or penalised. Jelavic could probably have stayed on his feet but he would have lost a good chance of keeping control of the ball anyway so he crumpled. Ref simply got it wrong.

Jelavic is obviously prevented from getting a clean shot away in the first incident by having to kick the defenders foot first. I haven't seen anything that makes me think that the defender got anything on the ball, and if he did why weren't we awarded a corner? You are not telling me that the ref saw the defender touch the ball a milli-second before Jelavic did, and it was obvious to everyone that Jelavic's foot hit something other than the ball in the act of shooting. Ref bottled it, IMO, choosing to believe that Jelavic simply mis-kicked.

Big Vic being wrestled to ground was sufficient for the penalty that was given, but Mirallas right leg was definitely impeded by the defenders left leg so two fouls were committed. Foul on Big Vic simply meant ref could avoid thorny issue of automatic dismissal for goal-scoring opportunity, especially as Wigan have had a couple of harsh decisions go against them recently.

I thought Mirallas was our other genuine striking option and some people are expecting him to pass up reasonable chances simply to give others more opportunities. A striker without a bit of a selfish streak or an unshakeable belief in his own ability? Yeah, that's the type we want!

Peter Barry
31 Posted 08/10/2012 at 07:03:17
So far this in this season's seven games, absolutely inexcusable and disgustingly inept mistakes by referees and linesmen have seen Everton drop four points which would have seen us on 18 points and still second in the Premier League.

We always hear that what 'goes around comes around' so we should therefore expect similar gifts to us from the Refs to cancel out these blunders but I am not holding my breath.

If such pathetic refereeing standards continue to plague us and so many other teams too in the same way for a full season, then we can expect to lose 20+ points that we should have won. Such is the low standard of refereeing in today's Prem that that is not such an unlikely scenario.
Ciarán McGlone
32 Posted 08/10/2012 at 08:56:10
It clearly wasn't as theatrical as Suarez's dying swan routine... But if someone can explain to me why minimal contact on the back made his legs go, then I'll happily concede.
Nick Entwistle
33 Posted 08/10/2012 at 09:50:29
Lee #588, Your language is something I find very frustrating in football...

'When he was shoved in the back in mid air Jelavic had every right to hit the deck and that is a penalty in any match you will see fairly officiated.'

What is this 'right to go down'? Either the push causes him to hit the deck or not. Any help from the player himself not to try to stay on his feet and continue play is cheating. How can it ba a foul otherwise? Stay on his feet he's got control of the ball. Takes his right to go down, he took a dive.

I can see why players get incensed going unfairly behind, as we did, but thankfully not even Jelavic would do what Garath Bale did with the Villa 'keeper yesterday. I didn't see the Suarez dive but surely Bale should get some punishment.

Thankfully, diving seems to be everywhere in the news now and the FA will need to take some 'difficult decisions'.

Pablo Connelly
34 Posted 08/10/2012 at 10:13:20
Moyes has been very vocal in the past about his players not diving or feigning injury. While he is not going to make it public, I think both Jelavic and Marallas will be given a quiet word about 'the Everton Way' when they come back from the international break. After years of pain we are desperate to keep up our winning ways but not at any cost. One of the best qualities David Moyes brings to Everton is integrity; it's a higher class of doing things than the Drogba or the Suarez way – we don't want to start down that path.

That aside, I don't know how anyone can defend officials from the Newcastle or Wigan games. No, there isn't a conspiracy... but the refereeing has been incompetent. Why does it seem like no-one is accountable from these ridiculous officials?

We have had one rub of the green when Felliani's hand ball was missed against Swansea, there is no doubt that goal should not have stood, but let's be clear: we would have won that game anyway because we were dominating and continued to dominate. We are now 4 points down because of incompetence. It is just not good enough.

Paul David
35 Posted 08/10/2012 at 12:58:30
Chris (#581)

The question was: Did Jelavic feign injury? – not if it was a dive or not. I wouldn't have been surprised if Jelavic had put that chance away but it wasn't as easy as you're making out. The fact is Jelavic is a diver and unlike Ian 587 I have heard people at the match screaming at him to stay on his feet.

Steve King
36 Posted 08/10/2012 at 13:40:41
There was a discussion thread on here recently where Suarez and his ridiculous cheating antics started to trend.
There were a lot of people (myself included) who admitted that although nowhere near the same level, Jelavic is the one Everton player that has similar tendencies.

The difference is that the RS all howl with derision and defend the snide little rat bastard. We, however, are embarrassed and scream at Jelavic to get up.

Tony J Williams
37 Posted 08/10/2012 at 14:18:33
Paul, if you sit in the Lower Gwladys, then it is probably me you hear screaming at him to stay on his feet.

The biggest difference between Jelavix and the cheating scumbag from across the park, the scumbag goes down before any contact is made, usually Jelavic has been "nudged" or "touched". The major difference seems to be that, one should be a foul but is usually ignored by refs and the other is a diving cheating scumbag who has been a racist in a game of togger.

I think that Rodgers probably meant that his players should dive, when there has been a slight foul on them to get the decision, not to cheat and dive like Bale.....who has somehow managed to avoid the stigma of being a diving twat ....

anyhoo! Suraez is a diving bucktoothed fuckpig scumbag......and breathe!

John Dubay
38 Posted 08/10/2012 at 14:11:05
Decisions do not even out, they should be considered in the context of the game, for example, having a legit goal disallowed when 2-0 up or a legit goal allowed when 0-2 down. If these decisions involve the Sky-babes, they also gain points which widen the gap further so what chance do teams like us have in catching up?

Also why do some mention the Felli handball as a counter argument? OK if you want to nitpick, the corner that was given against Ssouthampton that led to their goal evens that out. That's fucking that sorted.
Mike Powell
39 Posted 08/10/2012 at 15:07:43
Shane, what planet are you on?

Ainchibe's goal that was not given was well over the line and Fellaini's goal was well onside.

I sit in the Gwladys Street just behind the goal and could see it clearly so you and the linesman must go to the same opticians. The Wigan goal was a yard offside and as I said early I am convinced the FA have something against us I am sick and tired off all the decisions going against us. FFS look at that diving carrot-munching scumbag who gets away with diving in every game.
Wayne Smyth
40 Posted 08/10/2012 at 17:26:51
Sod the "everton way" if that means keeping mealy mouthed, and mumbling under your breath about being unhappy with the decisions of the officials, while opposing managers are obviously happy to have their players actively cheat, and undermine our own players(e.g. wenger/johnson).

The mantra of doing the right thing and not hassling officials and creating a fuss has probably cost our club silverware and significant cash over the years. The moral stance from Moyes is admirable in many respects, but everyone needs to be playing by the same rules or we shouldn't bother.

The FA have done FA about cheating in football, sky have also brushed it under the carpet by deliberately using phrases like 'simulation' instead of calling players out for what they are; probably because they don't want their precious franchise and the reputation of the 4 or 5 teams that they care about being dragged through the mud.

It never ceases to amaze me the fuss that gets made over a couple of words spoken during the heat of a football match and compare that to the utter apathy as a significant number of games are decided by players deliberately cheating over the last decade or two.

Next time we get done out of a goal, or have a player sent off where there was no need, we should ask ourselves whether we as a club stand up for our own as much and as forcefully as other clubs in the league.

I'm not suggesting for one moment that Moyes needs to start telling our players to cheat; I think a better solution would be to really start kicking up a stink in the media and putting calls into the referee association about decisions that have gone against us. Its too easy at the moment for refs to not give us decisions because they think that we're not going to create as much of a fuss as the sky 4/5.

Shane Corcoran
41 Posted 08/10/2012 at 18:55:02
Mike, if you were in the Gwladys end how in the hell could you have clearly seen either decision? I mean c'mon. We can debate either one and agree to disagree but how could you have been sure without a view from the side?

I posted up these highlights before but again, look at them. They are both incredibly close, and that is the reason I have some sympathy for the officials and why I don't really for the linesman at Wigan because Kone had been, and still was offside for some time.
Check them out again. Gwladsy street.....................

Paul Johnson
42 Posted 08/10/2012 at 19:10:55
Both incidents with Jelavic, if they had been committed outside of the box, would have been given as free kicks. It really pisses me off when you get whistle- and card-happy referees who shit it when it comes to big decisions. The guy should have been sent off when it comes to the law of the game for the penalty.

Don't get me wrong — I hate the way the game has gone. I was bought up on Terry Daracott and John Mcgloughlin. If the game was played then under today's rules, it would have ended up 8 a side, but I digress. Rules are rules, the pisser is the guys who officiate them are not worth a blow on a rag man's trumpet.
Patrick Murphy
46 Posted 08/10/2012 at 20:43:46
Where is this Jelavic is a Diver nonsense coming from? Most of the time he finds his own space and time in the box and defenders are left for dead.

When, like on saturday he is pushed in the back whilst in mid-air what is he supposed to do 'Hover'.

Try it out for yourself , jump up while your 12-13 stone mate pushes you from behind and see if you can stay on your feet.

Some TW's have strange ways of demonstrating their allegiance to Everton Football Club. Now if you want a diver think Anders Limpar , how many of us complained that he was failing to live up to the Everton way on that fateful day in 1994.

Remember this forum is open to supporters of other clubs , how they will relish to label our most potent goalscorer a 'diver'!

Ian Bennett
47 Posted 08/10/2012 at 20:57:39
Just seen Suarez's dive. So bad it made me laugh.
Nick Waters
48 Posted 08/10/2012 at 20:50:10
Shane - the only person I've heard say they were not both legitimate goals against Newcastle is you. The replays make it totally plain. The fact is you're wrong to say otherwise - discussion forum or not.

To clear up the earlier point about Fellaini's goal, the offside law refers to a player 'standing' in an offside position, ie feet. I won't deny that many linesmen would call it wrong given both the speed of the incident and the leaning angles of both Fellaini and the defender concerned - but that still doesn't take away the fact that it was a legitimate goal, and wrongly (if possibly understandably) ruled out.

Graham Mockford
49 Posted 08/10/2012 at 21:00:40
Ian try this link

bit.ly/PjbZq5

Ian Bennett
50 Posted 08/10/2012 at 21:05:33
You're not wrong, Graham.
Peter Huddleston
51 Posted 08/10/2012 at 21:10:54
I now completely understand why rat face couldn't stay on his feet at the weekend! Check it out

http://i.minus.com/iyzrJDtyWPpyY.gif

Mike Allison
53 Posted 08/10/2012 at 21:54:10
Ciaran a foul and a dive are not mutually exclusive. A single incident can contain both. Jelavic was clearly fouled, and possibly reacted too theatrically, but what can he do? Make nothing of it and the ref thinks its not a foul, make something of it and the ref thinks you're play acting. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jump up, try to chest a ball, and then see what happens when someone pushes you in the back when you're in mid-air. You'll look remarkably similar to Jelavic in that incident.

John Dubay
54 Posted 08/10/2012 at 21:40:05
Decisions like in the Newcastle & Wigan games fuck my head up for days afterwards as my missus will confirm, and I am distractible and moody and generally a pain in the arse until we win our next game. Part and parcel of being an Evertonian I suppose. However, I will always prefer to hold the moral high ground than being totally ashamed to admit I support one of these fucking shit skybabe teams who believe that it is their divine right to walk over teams by officials giving them every decision in every game. Winning fair and square is the name of the game and I will never think otherwise.

The team has been performing well above my expectations and I will not berate the players. Doing so as misdirected anger at the inexcusable refereeing against us is not fair. Winning both those games 4-2 or 5-2 would have been a fair reflection of our style of play and dominance. If the fucking officials can't do their jobs due to blindness and senility then we have to accept it however much it fucks us off. I will continue to go to games and scream myself hoarse for the team that deserve to have my support. COYB
Ciarán McGlone
55 Posted 08/10/2012 at 22:22:15
Nonsense Mike.

If someone falls to the ground whenever the contact doesn't merit it, then its a dive. End of story.

The touch on his back was minimal, and he choose to go down. His legs went for Christs sake.

You ask what else should he do.. I cannot believe that's a serious question.

Keith Glazzard
57 Posted 09/10/2012 at 00:13:23
Ciarán -

"If someone falls to the ground whenever the contact doesn't merit it".

That is the nub of the disagreement here. You seem to be claiming that with his eye on the ball and an arm in his back he could have, what?, easily landed and kept his feet. Others, myself included, say its not so easy to do that, and the resulting fall was just that, and not a Suarez style dive.

He may have stumbled and fell, players do, unaided, but physical contact was being made by a player out of reach of playing the ball. And the laws, Law 12 to be a bit more precise, say that's a direct free kick.

Nobody, I think, has yet claimed it was outside the box. Bet you a huge majority of football watchers would say that had it been outside the box it would have been blown up for a foul.

Ian Smitham
58 Posted 09/10/2012 at 00:45:37
Nick# 709, just to be even clearer, the interpretation of the Law is that it is not just the feet but any part of the body that can legitimately score a goal is offside then the player is regarded as offside. So, his head is offside means he is offside, his right wrist being offside means he is not, so in this contribution we must consider do we prefer head or wrist action?

Cheers
Ian

Keith Glazzard
59 Posted 09/10/2012 at 01:27:13
Ian – you're quite correct about parts of the body here. The biggest change to the offside situation in years was the introduction of the 'if he is level with the second-last opponent' clause in Law 11, Offside.

This was clearly stated at the time to have been introduced to take some advantage from defenders and transfer it to attackers. In situations that tight, the attacking player should have the benefit of the doubt, not the defender.

That clearly did not happen in the Newcastle game. What happened in the Wigan game goes into the realms of farce. I don't recall Law 11 saying 'OK, let's call it half a yard then'.

You know that stuff commentators spout about good refs being the ones you never notice. Well how many 'assistant referees' think they've had a 'good' game, according to their FA assessors, if they've gone through a match without giving an offside? They must be itching to get that flag up – shows they're doing their job you see. Big Belgian bloke with hair, loads of yellow cards. Must be off. Up you go. Job done. Wanker.

And by the way, he has to do it with his right hand. See Law 6.

Marcus Choo
60 Posted 09/10/2012 at 04:41:55
Regarding Jelavic's dive. Did he? Did he not? I think it's somewhere in between. Ciaran probably has a point when he says the little push didn't merit him going to ground as he did. However those of us who've played even a little bit of contact sport before would know that a little “nudge” is all it takes to gain/lose an advantage. In this case, the little push by Wigan's defender was probably enough to take away any advantage that Jelavic had (e.g. got behind defender, facing goalwards with goal scoring opportunity?) – the question: was it fair? I would have to agree with Keith's view of the matter. The defender couldn't win/get the ball back fairly so he just applied a bit of cynical (my opinion) play to rob Jelavic's advantage; i.e. he fouled Jelavic and should have been penalized. Could Jelavic have stayed on his feet? Probably, but why should he have to when he's been fouled?
Ciarán McGlone
62 Posted 09/10/2012 at 08:00:50
Keith,

You can resort to the laws all you want. I've read them just as much as anybody..

But that's irrelevant whenever its your interpretation of what happened that's in question.

You're relying on a position that the defender 'jumped into or charged into the back of Jelavic'. Neither of these things happened.

Merely touching a player does not constitute these actions. It's still a contact sport.

John Dubay
63 Posted 09/10/2012 at 09:01:19
Jelavic was propelled forward by the defender behind him who did not play the ball therefore foul therefore penalty.

Jelavic was not feigning injury when he kicked the defender's foot that prevented him from shooting therefore foul therefore penalty.

End of.
Lee Mandaracas
64 Posted 09/10/2012 at 09:09:11
Nick (622) Please read Keith's post (729) for my response. I have done my utmost to avoid frustrating you with my infuriating language and believe Keith has responded better than I would have done, whilst hopefully not offending your linguistic sensitivities.
Keith Glazzard
65 Posted 09/10/2012 at 11:15:11
This article in today's Guardian reviews some of the things we have been talking about - nice to see Moyes honourably mentioned a couple of times.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/oct/08/football-diving-referees-problem

Nick Entwistle
67 Posted 09/10/2012 at 12:39:27
Keith, Lee, resorting to the rule book and justifying Jelavic's collapse because there was a 'push' is a cop out.

The refs make decisions on hundreds of pushes in a match every time players come into contact with each other. It is a contact sport, players spend hours in the gym, they're strong and contact when in possession is always to be expected.

It all depends on the push. You may see that as ambiguous, but only if you choose to. We've all seen a thousand matches and a million replays and if you don't know what a foul is without referencing a literal description of a physical action then what if anything do you know?

Never once seen a rugby player hit the deck like that... etc etc...

Nick Entwistle
68 Posted 09/10/2012 at 13:00:51
... besides, going by the laws you cite, if Jely remained upright and with the ball at his feet, it would still be a foul.

You don't shout penalty at every corner kick do you?

Shane Corcoran
69 Posted 09/10/2012 at 13:34:37
Nick #709, I never said that Fellaini was offside anywhere so am I still wrong or what is it you're saying? I merely said it was an incredibly difficult call in real time.

The youtube clip I posted on another thread of Anichibe's goal had many many comments saying that all of the ball wasn't over the line. Plus, all I said was that I wasn't convinced it was over, in the sense that I couldn't see any daylight between line and ball.

So less of your "facts" please until you at least read what I say.

Shane Corcoran
70 Posted 09/10/2012 at 13:34:37
Nick #709, I never said that Fellaini was offside anywhere so am I still wrong or what is it you're saying? I merely said it was an incredibly difficult call in real time.

The youtube clip I posted on another thread of Anichibe's goal had many many comments saying that all of the ball wasn't over the line. Plus, all I said was that I wasn't convinced it was over, in the sense that I couldn't see any daylight between line and ball.

So less of your "facts" please until you at least read what I say.

Bill Griffiths
71 Posted 09/10/2012 at 14:53:24
While I am in thecamp of believing Jelavic goes over far too easily as I have indicated in a couple of posts on here I wouldn't describe him as a diver. I know it's a difficulty call, go down under minimal contact even though a foul or stay on your feet and make it look as if not a foul but I would prefer if he tried to stay on his feet more and also did less crying about it after. Though I loved Arteta I think he was guily of the same thing. I'd hate to see Jelavic being bracketed a s adive like the scumbag across the park.
Lee Mandaracas
73 Posted 09/10/2012 at 17:55:40
Nick (780) Usually I find you quite reasonable and grounded on here but that is possibly the most preposterous opening I have ever seen in any post : "...resorting to the rule book..." I am actually still laughing whilst typing this. Absolute comedy gold!

Anyway, back on planet Earth I will reaffirm what I previously said. Jelavic was in the air when shoved and, as such, nobody (however robust or well trained and physically fit they may be) can reasonably be expected to remain in control when shoved off their point of landing whilst in mid air. On that point I will leave this thread as I genuinely feel it is likely to descend further into absurdity if these blatant observations continue to be ignored.

Have a good evening all

Ciarán McGlone
75 Posted 10/10/2012 at 21:55:40
Interesting interview from Michael Owen on this very topic today..
Ian Bennett
76 Posted 10/10/2012 at 22:04:21
The only time when owen has been interesting was his q and a on twitter. Question of the day was when someone asked if he could pop round to take in a parcel. If you have 2 minutes goggle it.

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