Fightback but two vital points dropped

, 2 February, 365comments  |  Jump to most recent
Everton 3 - 3 Aston Villa
Everton started with Victor Anichebe retaining his place and Nikica Jelavic on the bench alongside Phil Neville, who was also benched in favour of Darron Gibson.

Inside 2 minutes the Blues were behind, Heitinga easily rounded by Benteke, who fired past Howard as if he wasn't there. A dreadful start for the Blues.

Everton looked to respond with Mirallas running through and feeding Marouane Fellaini, his shot rolled inches wide. Pienaar won a free-kick but it was drifted over everyone by Leighton Baines.

Mirallas won a free-kick by the right corner flag that was rolled back, finding Gibson, whose shot was deflected wide but pressure from the corner was dispelled by The Villains until Osman won a soft foul that Baines tried to rocket in but it was well wide.

A nice move down the left saw Baines and Pienaar link up well, the South African choosing to fire in a weak shot as their play lacked a little composure. Good work by Mirallas sustained some better pressure but nothing came of it as Everton had to be alert for the break.

But the next attack, Mirallas ran across the area and fed Anichebe to feet, the big Nigerian, holding off his man and turning well to fire home superbly.

Benteke again got behind Heitinga but could only get a corner and in the follow-up a header from Agbonlahor could not be stopped. 1 - 2 and everything to do again.

Mirallas was involved in everything Everton were trying and he was fouled on the right edge of the area, but Baines's free-kick was defended away with too much ease. Another smart move down the left but he plays in a nice cross directly behind both Fellaini and Mirallas, who then set up Osman for a shot that won a corner but nothing came of it as Everton pushed hard for a second equalizer before the break.

Kevin Mirallas had a couple more corners but Everton were playing them to the back of the area, and not creating meaningful chances. Osman won another soft free-kick that Baines floated in but nothing could be created in a crowded area as an Everton player was fouled but not given.

Good movement and some variety in midfield saw Pienaar and then Gibson try shots from distance but both were poor and a dejected Everton side went off to a very quiet Goodison crowd.

Everton The pattern of Everton dominance with little to show for it continued into the second half as some may have expected teh Everton manager to take some proactive decisions to change things up a gear... but of course, no options from the bench, reflecting the failure to strengthen during the except perhaps the misfiring Jelavic?

But before he could get on the field, Benteke got on the end of a lovely cross, agian getting easily in front of Heitinga to power in the header, surely sealing Everton's fate at 1 - 3.

What would Moyes do to change the relentless pattern of this game? A reactive double substitution, Mirallas — Everton's most creative spark — replaced by Jelavic, and Heitinga by Oviedo...

Pienaar won a free-kick wide left that Pienaar powered in too close to Guzan, who punched it back out for a throw... from which Anichebe did really well to hold up he ball andmake space for a lateral run by Fellaini with the ball, and he picked his spot to make it 2 - 3 andset up a great finish to the game.

Oviedo fired a shot just wide, then Jeleavic was fouled and the ref hauled play back after giving Fellaini the advantage, Gibson picking out Distin with the free-kick, but his contact was insufficient. It was all Everton attack, Baines taking a corner that bounced a yard off the line. Then a cross in to Jelavic that he seemed destined to finish with power but his weak sidefoot stood up too nicely for Guzan.

Into the last 15 minutes, and Everton were trying everything to create a chance for the equalizer, but seeing Jelavic putting in the cross was not exactly the best option as they failed to make anything from yet another corner, as Villa made their first change, bringing on new boy Sylla.

Villa continued to slow down and break up the play, Holman replacing Al Hamadhi, and the fire behind Everton's fightback had started to fade, as the timewasting was rewarded with a yellow for Agbonlahor kicking the ball away at a free-kick. Osman was then booked for a very wreckless high kick on Loughton.

Into the last minute and the final play of teh cards was to bring on Naismith for Gibson as 6 minutes of stoppage time was indicated.

A couple of late corners and on the second Marouane Fellaini powered home with that big black fuzz! 3 - 3!!!

Everton did well to create another half-chance with Naismith well involved that Fellaini dug into the ground and Guzan saved easily. Sylla then fouled and saw yellow, a Baines free-kick swinging in, winning a last play form a corner, but it was too deep and that would be it. Two precious precious points dropped in Everton's 12th draw of the season, to one of the poorer bottom-half teams in the league.

Everton: Howard; Jagielka, Heitinga (65' Oviedo), Distin, Baines; Mirallas (65' Jelavic), Gibson (90+2' Naismith), Osman Y:89', Pienaar, Fellaini, Anichebe.
Subs not Used: Mucha, Hitzlsperger, Neville, Duffy.

Aston Villa: Guzan, Lowton Y:64', Vlaar, Clark, Bennett, Westwood, El Ahmadi (82' Holman), Agbonlahor Y:88' (90+2' Baker), N'Zogbia (79' Sylla Y:90+6'), Weimann, Benteke Y:45+1'.
Subs not Used: Given, Bent, Bowery, Dawkins.

Referee: Mike Jones

Quotes or other material sourced from ToffeeWeb Match Reports



Reader Comments (365)

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Paul Andrews
1 Posted 02/02/2013 at 14:24:02
Looking at team selection,there is a big danger that Heitinga will be bullied and physically smashed around by Benteke.
Sam Jennings
3 Posted 02/02/2013 at 15:11:41
You wonder what it will take for Moyes to realise that Heitinga is a complete and utter liability - Slow, weak, poor in the air...all attributes of a shit defender.
Trevor Lynes
6 Posted 02/02/2013 at 15:30:27
When I see Jags at right back and JH in the middle I immediately look at the opposition !
When I saw that Benteke was playing I was dismayed.

Ive said it before, if Duffy is not better than Heitinga he should look for a different career.
Heitinga does not tackle, gives strikers too much room and is too slow !!
God knows, I have said so many times that he is the worst Dutch international I have ever seen.

Max Murphy
7 Posted 02/02/2013 at 15:43:41
Moyes hang your head in shame.
Trevor Lynes
9 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:23:15
Hey Max..Moyes isn't playing !
Max Murphy
10 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:29:38
He picks the team you dumb shit.
Trevor Lynes
11 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:31:41
Pick a better one you even dumber shit !!
Max Murphy
12 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:34:40
How many Hetinga shirts have you bought? Sad twat.
Peter Barry
13 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:57:52
ANOTHER draw — what a surprise!!!!!

Davey Moyes — the Manager for All Seasons.... well, HALF a season anyway!

Nick Entwistle
15 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:59:09
Heitinga had a shocker, other than that we were all over them. A 4th would have made up for 6-2 live on The Match all those years back.
Craig Fletcher
16 Posted 02/02/2013 at 16:57:15
Can't help but think if the game went on an extra ten minutes we would have snatched it, what a finish!! Heitinga though was awful. The ease with which Benteke took his two goals was almost embarrassing.
Peter Barry
17 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:01:10
Villa — 4 shots on target... 3 GOALS!!!

Everton — 13 shots on target... 3 goals.

THAT'S the problem, guys.
Paul Andrews
18 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:01:04
Two points dropped is the fault of the manager. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know Heitinga would be dominated by Benteke. Simple mistake from Moyes.
Garry Taylor
19 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:02:18
FFS, Heitinga — you are shit!
Tony Twist
20 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:26
Useless Moyes, keeping a clean sheet for two minutes at home against Villa is just simply embarrassing.
Sam Morrison
21 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:01:37
Heitinga was player of the season last year Max. Now he doesn't look committed.
Peter Bell
22 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:04
Come on Derek Thomas I asked you 3 days ago to give me one, just one, good aspect of Johnny Sheitingas game and still waiting. I allegedly have the vision of Mr Magoo, well if you think that man can play football you need to head forspecsavers
Carl Taylor
23 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:01
Two points dropped or one saved? Hopefully the late goal can lift the gloom that the board have saturated the club in by not having any ambition. At least that kopite on the live forum seems further away now, 7 points away.....come on the arabs!!
Andy Crooks
24 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:33
I just don't understand Jagielka at right back and Heitinga at centre back. If this is Moyes's opinion of the best eleven available then Shane Duffy should look to go in the summer. The team selection was poor, Neville would have been a better option. No doubt ,however , that any criticism of the coach will be shouted down by those who cannot bear any dissent.
Bjørn-Ivar Pedersen
25 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:02:34
Max and Trevor...please behave! take it on some RS instead.
James Morgan
26 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:05:19
Graham Mockford, your thoughts after our earlier conversation?
Sam Fitzsimmons
27 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:44
Hey Max did you attend the Harvey Kietel finishing school for young men.
Phil Davies
28 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:02:19
Well there's Heitinga dropped for the rest of the season, I would rather have seen the new lad in at right back than watch the Dutch international get dominated.
Jim Knightley
29 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:05:14
Turned a catastrophe into an extremely disappointing result. Will have to win at Spurs now in all likelyhood...but fantastic spirit. Pitch was a mess though, Gibson was awful...and we missed Neville's discipline. As crap as he may be at passing, we need a player to just sit and fill in for the right positions.

Thought Anichebe was a massive plus. Fantastic display, and dominated their centre backs for the most part.

Roman Sidey
30 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:05:00
From the first minute Moyes should have switched Johnny and Jags. That said, Heitinga wouldn't have let Benteke score had the striker been onside. Forget the shit defending. That was a team that cannot defend set piece, and it took us 93 minutes to exploit that.

The equaliser aside, our corners are shit and have been shit for a long time. Our throw ins are worse, and our movement off the ball is childish. At some point in that game I wondered if the team had actually trained together in the past 12 months.

John Audsley
31 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:00:13
I'm really confused after watching that.

Felli was top class but only in the last 20 mins, before that he was pretty average. Its going to take Gibson/Mira time to get back to match sharpness and we dodged a bullet today with the equalizer.

JH was woeful but anyone who thinks that's the last we will see of him is mad. The squad is thin as hell so he will be involved in many ways before May comes along. He probably should be shipped out but as we know the transfer window has fucked off.

We needed at least 2 first team players in the window and got nothing

That will cost us.

Nick Entwistle
32 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:06:59
We don't mind dissent Andy - when its tangible. Fortunately, for your daily Moyes gripe you won't have to make up something spurious today.
Patrick Murphy
33 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:06:31
I thought Felli was immense today and you can understand why top clubs want him. Regardless of his goals, in the last half-hour he kept looking for the ball and chasing everything that moved.
Brian Waring
34 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:08:19
Roman, but he was onside, he was in line with the last defender, and in them cases the striker is supposed to get the shout.
Sam Fitzsimmons
35 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:07:21
With perhaps a few cameos before the end of the season you'd have say that was probably the end of Heitinga's Everton career.
Luke George
36 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:03:23
They were the most out-of-form team of this year. We've gifted them the game... why play Jags out of position for that Dutch bellend??? FFS disappointed.
Roman Sidey
37 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:12:57
Brian, I reckon he was offside.
Brian Waring
38 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:11:20
Patrick, it's funny how everyone see's the game differently, you thought Fellain was immense, I thought his overall play (Apart from 20/25 mins) was shit.
Peter Leslie
39 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:05:50
Defensive shape was all over the place – we effectively had Baines starting on the halfway line, with 3 at the back. Cue the worst CB in the league isolated against one of the best Centre-forwards.

Entirely Moyes fault – he is more aware than us of Heitinga's frailty against pace and power, and he effectively hung the player out to dry.

Monumentally fucking stupid tactics, compunded by typical dithering: wait till 3-1 down (could have been 4 had Weimann not skied an easy chance) then make the subs that were crying out for at 1-0.

Days like this make me despair – I want to fucking puke.

Derek Williams
40 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:02:09
Anichebe was outstanding today, he was at the centre of every good move we had.
I'm a big Moyes fan but what the fuck was Heitinga doing anywhere near the first team?!?!

Great comeback but it's defo 2 points dropped because of that clueless Dutch downsy. Given away 3 soft goals in less than 2 hours of football against shit opposition. Get rid.

Paul Olsen
41 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:13:45
Tough watch today, a certain someone will get enough stick for his performance here from others, so I´ll refrain.
Luke George
42 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:15:07
Pass the bucket when you're finished, Peter (#122).
Patrick Murphy
43 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:15:12
Brian I did say only in the last 30 or so minutes, up to then I agree he wasn't in the game.
But if he hadn't performed in the last third of the game, we would have got nothing from the match. Jelaviic looked as if he had just been told his winning lottery ticket had been burnt, when he was sat watching from the bench.
Tony J Williams
44 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:12:58
Fault today lies with Moyes, Heitinga and Howard. Why that dozy prick was in the middle with Distin after Wednesday I have no idea... and someone should check Howard's boots for superglue because the soft cunt is constantly stuck to the line. The ball for the third goal bounced in the fucking six-yard box for fuck's sake
Jamie Barlow
45 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:12:20
Roman, Heitinga turns like a ten ton truck, he'd have been murdered at full back. He shouldn't have played full stop.

He should never play again.

He doesn't look interested to me.

Jags at centre back and Neville at full back it should have been. Unless Neville was injured, it was a bad choice by Moyes.

Brian Waring
46 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:19:12
Sorry Patrick, have that many things whizzing around my head, I didn't pick - up on that bit in your post.
Luke George
47 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:18:33
A young Mr Stones should be getting his boots dirty sooner than he thought....
Ken Crowther
48 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:15:23
Max #76 & #81 - Trevor (#79 & #82) has actually played in the Football League, I should think he has probably forgotten more about football than you will ever know!
Brian Waring
49 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:21:50
Got a point there Luke, can't do him any harm having a run out.
Eric Myles
50 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:06:59
Sam, Trevor, who was our Player of the Season last season?
Tony J Williams
51 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:18:52
Peter, how is he hung out to dry? He is a World Cup Finalist marking a forward, its his fucking job for fucks sake?
Steve Guy
52 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:19:31
Fergie will be praying Moyes "keeps faith" with Heitinga for next week; gawd help us if he does, Van Persie will fill his boots to overflowing!
Harold Matthews
53 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:18:41
Yes, he picked the team and he cocked it up.

Nice of Fellaini to turn up for the last 10 minutes which was exactly 10 minutes more than Pienaar. He never turned up at all. Ovieda did plenty.

A great fightback all the same.

Please don't go on about Heitinga. He should not have played

Roman Sidey
54 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:26:12
Jamie Barlow, fair point about Heitinga's turning. However, Villa are an awful team and Heitinga would have done the job, but what I mean is that, knowing Moyes wouldn't sub in the first half, swapping the two would have been the other best option. They had a big bastard up front and that was their only game plan.

I refuse to believe that Heitinga is a bad footballer. I think his head has been messed up this year through being unceremoniously dropped at the start of the season after the year he had last year. As someone mentioned earlier, Moyes playing him against someone like Benteke is hanging the bloke out to dry.

Brian Hill
55 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:24:25
Osman very lucky not to receive a straight red, which would have been the culmination of a thoroughly ineffective display.
Tony J Williams
56 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:29:27
Amen Howard, I have been saying for a couple of months that he has been playing gash
Clive Lewis
57 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:29:09
JH was an embarrassment at CB, Moyes on BBC took the credit for patching up his earlier mistake by claiming "some people thought we made the wrong decisions" however it turned out OK.

Yes you made the wrong decision then you corrected it after we lost 3 goals mind you.
JH should have been subbed after the first goal, it was embarrassing.

Jimmy Sørheim
58 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:31:53
When will Moyes face the truth? Heitinga is having an awful season, and he should be relegated to the reserves for his piss poor performances.

When was the last time Moyes put one of his first team players in the reserves when they were playing badly???

Peter Leslie
59 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:23:41
Almost posted before the game that young Stones should be considered... Then laughed at the ridiculous notion of Moyes picking a confident young specialist fullback ahead of Sheitinga.

As bad as he was, there were many other really poor performances today – Howard was indecisive, Pienaar stunk the place out, Osman was ineffective, even Baines and Gibson toiled.

Anichebe was terrific, probably MotM and Fellaini escapes criticism for two vital goals.

Wonder how much the pitch played a part – worst I've seen it in 30 years, players seemed not to trust a pass and the ball was bouncing off shins all game, but that's no excuse – same for both teams.

Blood pressure subsiding, but still furious and blaming Moyes all the way. Stubborn bastard.

Tony J Williams
60 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:33:07
How is expecting a professional player to do his job hanging him out to dry Roman?
Sam Fitzsimmons
61 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:28:40
Eric, thankfully football careers aren't based solely on the previous season's performances. Its about delivering in the here and now. Hetinga was immense last season but the reality is that there are very few fans who would have the confidence in his ability now.
Brian Waring
62 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:32:14
Something that could go against this season could be goal difference, Chelsea have +14 over us and Arsenal have +10, Spurs only have +2 over us, that could change with tomorrows game though.
Craig Fletcher
63 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:27:34
You're right there, Luke. I think the young lad is now closer to a start than even he may of thought after today.
John Audsley
64 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:33:02
I think Stones should play sooner rather than later.

If Nev isn't played at RB it should be him with both Coleman and Hibbert injured.

He should be on the bench at the very least.

Clive Lewis
65 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:36:21
Well Moyes should try the young lad after all we have had Hibbert there before, the gamble isn't too great!
Clive Lewis
66 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:37:40
Brian, I am not sure we going to make 4th because of dithering in January. We needed at least another player. But they obviously did not want to gamble now we will lose everything at the end of the season.
Tony J Williams
67 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:40:02
Are you all having a laugh? Most ofyou hadn't even known Stones existed a few days ago now you are suggesting he could be starter...... Christ!
Peter Leslie
68 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:35:09
Tony, don't get me wrong, I've no sympathy for JH as a player, but maybe as a human being; the situation reminds me of an old boxer being overmatched against a bigger, faster, hungrier opponent. The Manager has a responsibility not to put a player in when he knows full well his confidence is shot and he is going to get murdered.

Worse, Moyes set the defence up so he was the middle man of three.

Could you not predict the outcome of Heitinga vs Benteke?

Brian Waring
69 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:44:52
I know Johnny was shite today, but not being funny, Benteke has run ragged plenty of defenders this season.
Nick Entwistle
70 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:46:04
4pts off 3rd and we can't compete? Well neither can some of the teams above us. We've closed the gap on Chelsea two games running. We're all good.
Kristian Boyce
71 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:42:25
Johnny H was a ball playing world cup finalist defender, today he looked like a League 2 Hoofball merchant. With him out of contract next summer, we'll be luck to get a million for him at the end of the season.
Jamie Crowley
72 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:42:26
The only decent team spirit on display today was the TW Live Forum Team, who got stuck in against that foul Redshite interloper.
Amit Vithlani
73 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:27:58
1. Moyes paid dearly breaking up the Jags and Distin CB partnership with a bloke who is simply out of form. Please, no more tinkering with the CB's unless there are injuries or suspension. If our RB's are not available for our next game throw in John Stones next time out.

2. We have to rotate. Pienaar and Ossie are feeling it. They are not spring chickens and need a break. We have the option of dropping Felli back alongside Gibson and starting Oviedo and Mirallas in the wide positions. Vellios and Vic can do a job upfront.

3. Felli got us out of jail, but Vic played really well. The manager needs to keep in this frame of mind, he is up there with Felli and Bainsey in terms of performances.


Peter Bell
74 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:45:56
Peter Leslie, you can predict the outcome of Heitinga v every striker he plays against. Been taken the cleaners by Kone, Carlton Cole and they are all poor.
Quite simply Sheitinga should never play for this club again, have him down as my captain of the worst ever 11 by a country mile.
Eugene Ruane
75 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:46:50
Brian (144) - imo that first goal was not Heitinga being 'run ragged', it was him not giving enough of a fuck.
Colin Potter
76 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:35:10
Duffy should have his request for a transfer on moyes desk first thing Monday morning. moyes will always give youth a chance eh? Don.t make me laugh. I'm 75 this year, and I've been wondering whether I will ever see John Stones ever play for us.
Ralph Basnett
77 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:40:06
Sorry, all down to Moyes - he knows we need a RB, buys one and does not play him. Plays Jags at RB and Heitinga at CH after it not working for three games. go one behind and not change tactics. Make a man inRB the captain, P Neville is not the most vocal but did more shouting from the line than Jags.

All in all a crap result against a crap team whilst playing crap football.

Man Utd next week and if Moyes does normally roll over for SAF, here won't have to with the way this shower are performing.

Still four spot doesn't look that far off -Not !!!!!!!

Phil Roberts
78 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:49:36
Watched two fantastic games of Rugby today. Checked the football at 25 minutes - Noooo 1-2. Checked again half time in the second match - Noooo 2-3.

D'ya know. This feels like a win!

And yes, after all the rubbish said about Vic on this site - so glad he is showing up as the player he can be.

Brian Waring
79 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:51:17
I agree with you Eugene. I'm just an admirer of Benteke. Now, if only..........
Mike Gwyer
80 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:33:58
Peter (#112).

If you are still feeling like having a puke please find somewhere with a big fucking whole so that you can fall in it.

Moyes, Moyes, Moyes, fucking Moyes – the same team took 3 points off WBA so I'm guessing Moyes thought the same team could do it against the Villa. Heitinga had a mare, it happens. If you work I'm sure you have fucked up – you just correct your mistake and get on with it.

Tactics – what the fuck do you know about tactics other than watching MOTD, playing FM or taking yourself to GP? I mean what do you know? Because "monumentally stupid fucking tactics" just don't cut it. I want to know what Moyes should have done with his 18 first team players that top tacticians like yourself can spout off. A fucking tip for you though, Neville is carrying an injury, Coleman is fucked and Hibbo is totally fucked.

Peter Bell
81 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:49:57
Brian Wareing, every striker has run Heitinga ragged this season.
Roman Sidey
82 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:47:34
Tony, I with you on the professionalism call, but, as good as JH was last season, he's never been great against the big bastards. I know it, you know it, and Moyes should definitely know it. It's the same old story with Moyes. Pick the same team and tactics regardless of the opposition. If we were playing with three centre halves, put JH in the middle?

He gave away two poor goals, but, as has been said on here already, there weren't many acceptable performances on our side anyway. Vic was good, but it was plainly obvious that all the work he was doing was for nought because he rarely had anyone to give it to after holding. Put two up top from the start and watch Victor and Jelavic bang them in for fun.

Pienaar and Osman need to be told to never shoot for goal. It is pointless. In ruggers we joke about writing "don't kick" on the forearms of forwards - these two need "don't shoot".

Brian Waring
83 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:52:49
What he could have done Mike is play Jags and Distin centre - half and Neville right back.
James Stewart
84 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:53:05
Heitinga was an absolute disgrace. I hope to never see him play for us again. He is a liability and has been turning performances that would make Titus Bramble cringe. A clown of a defender.
Jim Knightley
85 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:52:53
I also think it's fantastic that Stones now should have been trucked in...when so many were critical of his purchase in the first place, and referred to us having five? people who could play in that position?

Heitinga fucked up. He is a good defender, and he should have been better...but I think the lack of defensive cover from midfield was also to blame today... but we still should have beaten Villa. We are making things harder and harder for ourselves.

Brian Waring
86 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:55:13
Sorry Mike, didn't see Neville carrying an injury.
Tony J Williams
87 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:50:31
Peter, that's why I blame Moyes as well but it a stupid suggestion that a manager should drop a player because the man he will be marking may be better than him..... It happens with 90% of the teams.
James Stewart
88 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:55:18
Benteke is a good player but as soon as Heitinga went off he didn't look so good!
Peter Leslie
89 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:50:51
Don't want to make the whole thing about Heitinga - that would be papering over other cracks - but he looks completely gone: both mentally and physically.

Quicker Moyes admits that to himself the better for the team.

As said elsewhere, if Duffy can't get a game ahead of him, we are properly in the shit at centre back.

Eric Myles
90 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:25:14
Brian #111, and it's funny how Neville is being slagged this season for doing exactly what Fellaini used to do in the same position the last 5 seasons but Fellaini was always hailed as being great.
Brian Waring
91 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:58:33
Fellaini has shown what he can do Eric, I chuckle when some start labelling him 'World class' though.
Trevor Lynes
92 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:46:38
Heitinga struggles against big targetmen,
Carlton Cole ran him ragged.
He does not get near enough to them and does not make a block.
He also lacks both pace and height !!!!!!

I have said this so many times...JH is the worst Dutch internationalI have ever seen and if Duffy is considered worse than him then the lad should change career,

DM should have played Neville ar right back and restored Distin and Jags to centre back where they both belong.

No one else has shown any interest in JH either when we bought him or since he has played for us....the same goes for Bily and Maggi, they were all bad acquisitions.

I must admit I was apprehensive when I saw the team that was picked.
Benteke needs a strong centre back against him.

The only plus point was the fight shown.
Our biggest problem is the size of the squad, no team in the premier has used less players and that is important.
If you want success you need a strong bench,

John Audsley
93 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:01:49
Im suggesting he should be 4th choice RB TJW

Better maybe than PJ at RB and JH at CB

erm.......lots of love JTA.............

Paul Andrews
94 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:01:41
Moyes made a simple error that some of us pointed out before kick off. Heitinga does not have the physical attributes to play against Benteke, schoolboy error from the manager. Even worse was that he must have seen what was happening and was too stubborn to get Jags back into centre half.

"Some people thought we made a mistake today, but it turned out ok."

It turned out that we scrambled a home draw against a side who have been twatted by sides from lower divisions as well as so-called lesser Premier League teams than us in recent weeks.

Paul David
95 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:40:28
Poor performance all round. I said through the week (and loads others) that if you have to play either Jag or Heitinga at right back then it has to be Heitinga. He should now be behind Duffy, another words that should be his last game in a blue shirt.

Gutted and pissed off we didn't try sign Butland and Howard once again shown why, he was shit and has no control over his 6 yard box. From where I was I could see a few people in the Gwladys Street giving him abuse, Howard shouted back and gestured with his hand, as if to say 'fuck off'.

Osman and Pienaar have been blowing hot and cold far too much lately and Fellaini's form of late is well below what is expected even if he did score two.

Its no secret that I don't like Moyes but I thought it was harsh for the crowd to again boo his sub decisions. Well that was untill I noticed he didn't change the shape at all. Putting Anichebe on the wing and having just one upfront when chasing the game was fucking stupid.

Howard - New keeper is a priority for me now - 4
Jag - Looked a lot better when put in his proper (only) position - 6
Heitinga - Joke - 2
Distin - Will have to see motd to see if he could have done better on any of the goals - 6
Baines - Tried hard and got forward well - 7
Mirallas - Probably needs a few more games to rediscover his form, poor crossing today - 5
Gibson - Some good passes some poor - 6
Osman - Not involved enough - 5
Pienaar - Worrying form for quite a while now - 5
Fellaini - Seemed uninterested and would have got a 5 if it wasn't for his goals - 7
Anichebe - Took his goal well but still pisses me off with his lazy ways, woefull first touch and back to feigning injury - 6

Amit Vithlani
96 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:57:55
Mike Gwyer, never seen so much cock spouted in one post. When CB's are doing well, you don't break the partnership, especially with an out of form defender. We could have played JH or Stones at RB, even Oviedo. Or, if none of those players were available, put Duffy in. But to break up the partnership with an out of form defender was dicing with death. JH cost us goals against West Brom and Newcastle so its not exactly rocket science that the bloke is out of sorts.
Kev Johnson
97 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:09:53
I didn't catch the game. How was Oviedo at RB? At least, I presume he played RB when Heitinga went off?
Peter Jansson
98 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:11:00
Throw Heitinga out on the bench please!!!
He is involved in ALL three goals and does a very bad job. First goal... is he on the field at all? Jogging around.. useless.

The other 2 Aston Villa goals hes looses battle in the air.. .

Please why cant we just put Jagielka back in the center??

COME ON Moyes!!

Jamie Barlow
99 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:55:55
Heitinga wasn't "run ragged" today. He just didn't give a fuck.

He was hardly muscled out for the first, he just let him run past. Benteke never even touched him.

Same for the second, he was hardly smashed out of the way for the header. He didn't even jump. It might have helped if he was even looking at his man.

The third was a great ball but it just looks so lazy when he just sticks his foot out.

Come back soon Hibbo. Someone who will put his body on the line for Everton, totally the opposite to the Dutch shithouse.

Eric Myles
100 Posted 02/02/2013 at 17:59:09
Ralph #152 " he knows we need a RB, buys one and does not play him"

So he buys a teenage "one for the future" prospect from the Championship 2 days ago and you expect him to have an immediate place in the starting 11 ahead of 2 proven Premiership and international players?

Clive Lewis
101 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:11:28
Lets not be too harsh, the win was not forthcoming becuase of JH. Moyes should have known that , but not sure if the rest of the team was as bad as some are saying on here. Fellaini I thought did OK. Gibson wasnt as good as normal. Please can someone tell Pienaar and Osman not to shoot from the edge of the box.
Paul Gladwell
102 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:11:38
Moyes has said he had a feeling we would have to score a few to win today!
Fuck me shows you how confident he feels of his back four, we were playing the worst team in the league at the moment, we are fifth Davey it's not on against shite like that.
Roman Sidey
103 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:13:05
"Some people thought we made a mistake today, but it turned out ok."

This quote.

What about drawing at home to arguably the worst team in the league is "ok"?

Gavin Ramejkis
104 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:14:44
A classic Moyes let down, why the fuck did he play Heitinga at centre half against Benteke? Heitinga has been giving goals away, hasn't the pace or height to keep up with benteke, I said before the game Moyes had given Villa at least one goal putting Heitinga against Benteke and less than 2 minutes in was proven sadly right.

Thought Anichebe had another solid game and was good value for his goal even when the foul on him in the build up itself was a pen he kept his head and put it away without the old theatrics. Fellaini came on strong at the death from a fairly anonymous earlier chunk of the game. Overall thankful of the point but FFS it was Villa, a side beaten by the giants of Bradford and Millwall in recent weeks, at times Everton made it seem like we were playing against Real Madrid giving them too much respect and time on the ball. Hope they get relegated, Benteke will make another team very, very happy

Eric Myles
105 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:14:09
Brian, I agree Fellaini has shown what he can do

this season

when played out of position.

Clive Lewis
106 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:17:49
Roman that interview with the BBC should read
"some people thought I made a mistake today, and I did but I corrected it and we got a draw. Sorry for all the fans, I messed this one up relying on JH, when as proved before he has not defended well againts quality attackers for ages, I wont do it again"

Mike Green
107 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:18:16
At least we'll be on MOTD early.......?
Robert Elliott
108 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:14:25
Mixed feelings with this one. To draw at home against a team as poor as Villa is poor, but 3-1 down with twenty to go I'd have gladly took a point.

The Heitinga decision was a strange one for me. Can only presume Neville is carrying a knock, but in that case why have him on the bench? I agree with those who say that if any of the three centre halves have to play right back then it should be Heitinga. You don't mess around with the centre half pairing and Jags and Distin have proven to be our best two.

I thought Anichebe gave another good account of himself and Fellaini proved his worth with his goals. Didn't do enough for me besides that, but I'll take the goals everytime. Tomorrow's games will show how bad today's result really was. If Spurs and Liverpool lose, then it's no disaster. If either or both win then its two big points dropped. Just galling to think of the points we've lost at GP this season. Add Villa to Norwich, Newcastle and Swansea...

Peter Thistle
109 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:23:37
Had a feeling we might mess it up today. We have a habit of playing badly against rubbish teams and playing well against good ones. Europa league is the best we can hope for sadly.
Andy Crooks
110 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:26:35
Nick #104., I don't get it. I have praised Moyes numerous times this season and posted on the mailbag how much more gravitas he has about him(okay, I didn't use exactly that word). Today, in my view, he got it wrong with his selection. However, I thought we battled back in a manner which a couple of years ago wouldn't have happened.

Of course, we could and perhaps should have a few more points but at the start of the season I'd happily have settled for what we have now, I've seen ,though, a few times this season just what we can do and want more of it. What's wrong with that?

Ray Robinson
111 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:36:01
We struggle for clean sheets all season, get two, and then Moyes changes the central pairing! Heitinga may have been player of the season last year (not that I can understand why) but his inability to play big, powerful centre forwards (Benteke, Kone, Cole etc) is and has been evident for some seasons. I once saw Kenwynne Jones take him to the cleaners - Kenwynne Jones for God's sake!

He is useless in the Premier League. No pace, power, height or bottle. Not his fault but Moyes's fault for selecting him.

Danny Moore
112 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:36:06
I've said it over and over since the very first few games, Heitinga's heart ain't in it. He played for his £60k-a-week wages last season and now he wants to doss. He can't jump and he's not aggressive enough. He just goes through the motions and we're stuck with him now... cheers, Moyes.

Why, Why, Why tinker with your back four??? For fuck's sake, Davey it's basic managerial skills.

Phil Walling
113 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:34:28
Moyes bristled when the Sky interviewer commented that the Everton defence had not looked as reliable this season as in the past.He retorted that the defence had been most consistent and that it was missed chances that had cost us two points on the day.
There`s none so blind...........
Ralph Basnett
114 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:42:35
Eric 177, like yes!! Jags has already shown he is not a RB, like when he first come he wasn't a middle fielder but Moyes.

MOyes has moaned year on year about reducing the age of the squad but won' give youth a chance, if their not mood enough they go, if they are still new he must think they are good enough.

Even the shite get give youth a chance. If the lad was going to deliver if was going tone on his debut.

But then again, why should I think someone should've able to do a job on the pittance they are paid! Silly me....

Roman Sidey
115 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:47:33
That sounds better, Clive, but not at all believable.
Brendan McLaughlin
116 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:45:22
Andy #188
The Apologist initiation ceremony is tough but stick with it

Steven Telford
117 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:48:00
I don’t usually find myself supporting Peter Barry's words, but in this case (#089) it's worth repeating them :

Villa — 4 shots on target... 3 GOALS!!!
Everton — 13 shots on target... 3 goals.

Our conversion of chance rate is beyond disturbing, and not just for this game but for many others. those numbers translate into a footballing disgrace.

Jamie Barlow
118 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:50:55
Paul Andrews@171, Roman@180, where did this quote come from?
Colin Glassar
119 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:56:09
When will Moyes finally realise that Heitinga, nevile and Naismith just aren't good enough.
Max Murphy
120 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:54:25
Moyes equals Muppet. Forget CL. And please don't give me that shit about being 5th in table. Moyes crap.
John Ford
121 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:40:24
Strange atmosphere at the start of the game today, and it was made worse after a minute. Again we were by far the better team but the final ball was missing and our shooting, in particular Piennars was awful.

The second half took abut twenty minutes to get started, The ref was pissing about, injuries everywhere and Villa falling all over the place. Ahichebe had a good first half but went quiet. Fellaini was decent particularly in the last twenty.

Where has the movement gone. The willingness to show and to create options? We did well enough to win but we still lack quality.

What a difference a new face or two would have done for the team and the fans. It might just have been what we needed.

Brian Waring
122 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:58:00
Moyes thought we played really well first half.
Ray Roche
123 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:55:00
Kev Johnson @174

Kev, I said to my mates before kick off that I'd sooner have had Oviedo at RB and leave our best central partnership in situ. When Oviedo came on at RB and jags reverted to CB we were much better. He has pace and threw in a couple of good tackles, if Neville doesn't get the nod I'd sooner start with him than anyone else who's currently fit. It's probably too soon for Stones. Heitinga, as you can no doubt guess, stunk the place out.

Eric Myles
124 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:56:08
Ralph, if you think that putting a teenage Championship player that's been with the Club for 2 days into a Premier League game against (and instead of) experienced players is a sensible idea then you should hold off on your application for Moyes job in the summer.
Colin Glassar
125 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:03:32
Ray Roche #174, for the life of e I can't understand why Moyes doesn't start Oviedo more often. He's shown, in a few games, that he has more talent in his big toe then nevile and Naismith put together.
Remember Moyes didn't trust Bainsey at the beginning and he had Jags paying all over the place when he first came to us.
Paul Andrews
126 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:05:09
Benteke treated Heitinga exactly how we thought he would treat him. Totally bullied him every time he came near him, he picked him up on the edge of the box in the first half on one occasion and threw him away like a kid.

Smashed him around all day, the manager should have had an easy decision to make re centre half selection today. Big mistake from Moyes.

Brent Stephens
127 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:59:48
The disappointment for me was that Jags to RB and JH at CH gave us two weak spots. JH clearly was / is at CH, but / and Jags is no RB. Better to have Jags at CH and then whoever at RB, so max one weak spot. If Mpoyes was sticking with Nev in midfield much of the season, I cant see why he didn't put him at RB. Not saying he's great but best of limited pick? Or now, the Irishman, Bryan O'Viedo, based on hs performance when he came on.
Brent Stephens
128 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:09:30
PS, I did, earlier on the season, suggest Bryan at RB. Nobody bothered to even shoot me down, so I thought it must have been a really shit suggestion, and not worth bothering with that muppet Stephens!
Nick Entwistle
129 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:06:58
John, the movement you wish for disappears when teams park the bus. That's why they do it. I think there'll be more clear cut chances against Utd than we found today. Less chances sure, but better ones.
Mick Quirke
130 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:04:25
What would this place be like if we were lower than 5th, just 4 behind Chelsea after 25 games? I'm old enough to have seen us win league titles but I'm sure many of the moaners on here aren't. It's amazing we are where we are. Moyes got it wrong today but it's thanks to him we're still in with a shout.

He was let down by the Board in the window. If we really had £10 million to spend we should have identified more targets earlier. However, most of you on here need a real sense of perspective. Just sit back for a moment and compare our squad and transfer budget with Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and the RS.

Thomas Windsor
131 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:07:39
Plenty of fight in the team to come back from 3 -1 down but Hietinga needs a rest and put Jagielka back in the middle. Right back will have to be Neville good to see Gibson play in midfield again. I don't think the 4th spot will be Everton's though; Europa Cup more realistic now as we can't win enough of our games — too many draws.
Ray Roche
132 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:11:42
Colin Glassar @205

Colin, I'm in agreement with you on that, I just don't know what is wrong with Moyes, he doesn't seem to trust some of the younger players. If Duffy can't get in the team before JH then Duffy must be crap. Anyway, I'm off for something red and French to calm myself down.

Phil Walling
133 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:04:42
We all knew the team needed freshening up before Xmas.Moyes virtually said as much but obviously failed to make his case to his great friend the chairman.Ditherer as he is,nothing happened until the last few days of the window which indicated that he (Moyes) had not made much progress in identifying either his needs or suitable replacements.
Personally,I think they operate as one and are both prepared to run out the season and hope for 6/7th.Even if that`s not the case they can do fuck all about it now so we can expect a few more shite performances like today.
PS The more you scream at Heitinga,the longer the bugger will stay in the team.That`s the Moyes` way,don`t ya know!
Ralph Basnett
134 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:10:30
Eric, isn't taking the step from reserves to first team bigger than a step up from divisions? I would suggest it is. Numerous youngsters make the step up and let's be honest, could not do worse than playing an out of form CH in the middle of the park against a huge inform Benteke and then the in form CH as a RB having been shown to be wanting in previous games.

The majority of footballers apprenticeship begins when they are barely teenagers, if they have the talent they play unless they don't quite have the bulk, this lad does.

If he was foreign would you suggest we don't play him because of the language barrier? I suggest not, how many other players bought in the window played?

The idea of this window is too bolster for now not three years time.

Kev Johnson
135 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:13:43
Ray @ 203 - thanks a lot for the feedback. Yeah, I've seen enough of Oviedo to guess he would do a decent job, but playing a left footer on the right does worry me slightly. Some players can switch sides, others can't. Anyway, sounds like the reshuffle after Thingy went off was a vast improvement and I suppose Oviedo must now be in with a chance of starting at RB against Man Utd, unless Neville comes back. Think I'll be watching MOTD from behind the sofa tonight, in the style of an eight year old cautiously peeking at Dr Who!
Ian Smitham
136 Posted 02/02/2013 at 18:57:31
Just got back from a pretty cold Goodison, no Winslow again. Peter Leslie above has JH playing in a back three. Sorry but from what I saw it was a fly back four. On the radio phone in Sharp said Jags played at right back as his pace would nullify Agbongallor. JH was poor, but also KM was poor, and TH is a worry. Maybe I am being a bit OTT but he seemed easily beaten on the first, though to be fair it was a precision shot, but the third??? Also, when he kicked it straight to touch in the second half, there were more than a few murmurs in the crowd. Baines side was where all three originated. Is it because SP is not playing in quite the usual role and so the cover not quite so good? Got to say again SP does not worry me as although he is clearly not playing well he at least gives everything.

Thought Vic did well again, lots of effort a well taken goal and a changed person from what I have grown to dislike .

Dominic Bobadilla
137 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:27:50
As bad Heitinga was, his follies was surpassed by the Evertonians who started singing "going down" at Villa before five minutes had passed. From a psychological point of view this is a self-defeating strategy. The following words of Balthasar Gracian should serve a reminder to these brainless goons: "Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose." These foolish chants gave Villa a psychological edge and they utilised it with lethal precision.
Ian Smitham
138 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:28:33
Oviedo looks the part, and I see strength in a left footed right winger, like Silva or Johnson, but am really not sure about at RB. Maybe if SP is feeling the strain, play BO over at left wing or if LB needs a break, how about LB? The thing is though, Moyes is not in the market of taking chances, he won't risk Duffy next week even though JH must be close to being dropped, I would love to see. Ou get players get a chance, but Moyes is a professional and he won't be taking chances in tight or big games.
Brent Stephens
139 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:34:36
A big round of applause for Vic today. Tremendous attitude, got the ball to his feet and shielded it well and laid it off well. Gave his marker a real challenge. Used his weight really well, too. What a cracking goal. Well done, lad. Starts in the 1st XI next week for my money.
John Audsley
140 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:30:01
"Played worst game ever in the shirt of Everton. Let teammates and fans down but they never let me down. Will work hard to come back strong."

JH on Twitter/

Well, at least he was honest. The squad is so small he will play again and if Jags/Distin get crocked he will be the first one in. All I can say is that he is an excellent passer of the ball, the rest has gone to shite

Dominic Bobadilla
141 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:38:12
220# Oviedo is a very intelligent footballer. He could prove vital as we hunt for a CL spot. It is high time for Moyes to utilise this resourceful man on a regular basis.
Phil Walling
142 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:42:00
"Made a cock-up of picking the side today and dithered over what changes to make.Will know better next game." — Not DM on Twitter.
Dominic Bobadilla
143 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:42:36
222#: laudable attitude, but it seems that JH's career is on the wane. I would be willing to give him one last chance. Were he to fail again, he should shipped off to Amsterdam. He knows what is at stake.
Colin Glassar
144 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:43:11
Well at least you're honest Johnny. Unlike captain fantastic who still thinks he can play for another five seasons.
Ian Smitham
145 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:45:25
John#222, just been on Twitter and seen same. It may be bullshit or playing to the audience, but do you know what? I admire him for having the strength of character to post that. Good for you Johnny and I hope he remembers that form is temporary and class...
John Keating
146 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:39:21
Just back. I heard the team when I was in the pub and could not fathom the defence out at all. I've watched us play Norwich, West Ham, Chelsea, Newcastle and West Brom with Heitinga in and Jagielka playing right back and thought on each and every occasion we were shite at the back. Now I hear it's same same!!!

Well I was hoping to be wrong but again they were abysmal. Jags and Distin are by far our best central pairing — why the fuck split it up to give Heitinga a game? — especially when Neville was available to play right back!!!

A couple of the lads were happy Neville wasn't playing as they reckoned Agbonlahor's pace would do him. Have they never seen Heitinga run? — cos he can't! I happened to mention that, regardless of Neville's lack of speed, his positional sense and experience more than compensates. Remember how he stitched up Bale?

Hopefully now and finally Moyes will keep Heitinga on the sidelines for the rest of the season. There were a number of occasions today when Distin had to cover 2 men cos that prick Heitinga was missing. He is more suited to continental type football and the sooner he fucks off back there the better.

Garry Corgan
147 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:00:20
@195 - The stats don't tell the whole story though. Of all our shots today, how many were clear goalscoring chances? Our problem, as I see it, isn't putting the ball in the back of the net; it's creating real clear-cut opportunities.

I pointed out during the game that Anichebe and Fellaini repeatedly received the ball with their backs to goal. Occasionally they would do something with it, but strikers really want it played in front of them. Our midfield isn't capable of playing neat balls through and our crossing today was woeful. I really hope Moyes takes note and has our wide players practising crossing and corners for the next few weeks.

Barry Rathbone
148 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:42:52
Colin.... "When will Moyes finally realise that Heitinga, nevile and Naismith just aren't good enough."

It's part of Moyes weakness - he's lily livered - age over youth all day long even if the older pro is having a "mare" of a time. He had Cahill playing far too long I suspect he defers to senior pros can't imagine him saying to Johnny "I'm putting Duffy in".

Pointless having talented youngsters at this club.

Phil Sammon
149 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:07:23
I'm sick of hearing, "We have a thin squad." We don't. We have a manager who will not use the squad we have.

I nearly crashed into Heitinga on the way to the Goodison today. I wish I had done now.

Derek Thomas
150 Posted 02/02/2013 at 19:51:17
Andy Crooks #188 "We battled back, that wouldn't have happened a few years ago."

Lescott was the last LB to score twice for us in 2007 and Vs Villa. we are mostly always good at fighting back.

The real problem is The Team and Moyes are mostly STILL crap at the Plan A that needs us to fight back in the first place.

I know it's early but this season could be a copy of 04-05, we start off with a hiss and a roar in the 1st half and fade in the 2nd half, just limping over the line for 4th.

We will, on the back of this performance and others, have to consider ourselves very lucky indeed to limp over into 4th this season.

MOB? I hear Moyes himself is thinking of joining up.

Andy Crooks
151 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:14:11
I agree, Barry, when Duffy came in I thought he was excellent; his reward was to be immediately dropped. What is incentive when he sees experienced players play badly and keep their place?
David Greenwood
152 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:19:53
So today is all your fault Phil?
David Greenwood
153 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:20:58
And you are spot on, we don't have a thin squad.
Andy Crooks
154 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:23:37
Brendan #194, one moment of weakness and you swoop!
Nick Entwistle
155 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:19:11
So much for the great Premier League if the 3rd and 4th placed teams merely limp throughout the season, Derek.

Would Spurs or Arsenal be limping too if they were to qualify? Or is it an all out scrap for CL places being fought each and every game by 4 very good teams in a very competitive league?

Patrick Murphy
156 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:15:49
When will a DM Everton side come of age rather than become aged. Every season we are there or there abouts in the top 5-8 and every year it is a case of if only's. If only we had scored here and there or kept a clean sheet here and there, started better etc etc.

Goodison must be having one of the worst clean sheet records in its history, just 2 this season in the PL and one against mighty Leyton Orient. In a season when goals have come more regularly than we have been used to at Goodison we sill can't find a way of winning the games against seemingly inferior opposition.

We have picked up 18 points away and just 24 at home
Although there are only 4 points between 3rd place and ourselves, not many of us really believe that we can somehow achieve a CL place.

How many Reading's Birmingham's Bolton's etc will it take for DM to realise that giving the 'big boys' a game means nothing if you can't beat the so-called inferior sides in the league. We will probably do our usual at OT, Chelsea, Arsenal etc and get a good performance from the team but very few points, meanwhile the likes of Reading and QPR at home will have us all chewing our fingernails.

After 11 years you would think that the manager would have noticed these things and attempted to put them right, mind you, given today's strange defensive starting line-up, it seems that he adds to the mystery rather than solving it.

John Ford
157 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:23:44
The thin squad point misses the mark. We have a squad short of players with the right qualities. This is why January was so frustrating.

I agree Moyes should use other players more but this is a familiar cry when things aren't going to plan. I'd like to see Duffy and others used more but I really don't think this will make a difference in terms of results. We're fifth, can anyone really see an eleven to get us higher than this? Likewise Moyes has other weaknesses but none of these are terminal, his core management is sound, which is why we are pretty consistent.

The problem is we don't have enough good players. BK has seen to that. In the pub after the game there was a sense of resignation -Criticism of Moyes for Heitingas selection, but more about what we are missing as a club. Yep we should still have won and we will play better this season.. But can we really, seriously, challenge the teams around us with our squad?

Nick Entwistle
158 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:34:16
Yes John, because we are. Am I the only one who looks at the table? Chelsea lost today, drew with Reading in midweek - its as if dropping points and not maintaining a 100% record is wholly a Moyes related issue to many on here.
Brendan McLaughlin
159 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:36:05
Andy #237
One moment of enlightenment & you fail to take it,. Go the extra yard!
Vijay Badhan
160 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:31:41
Poor performance against a really poor Villa side. 2 points dropped in a game we should have easily won, Arsenal right behind us now and Spurs have a game in hand. We really need to start winning games now as there is very little to separate the Champions League chasing pack, but I fear not adding players in the transfer market will come back to haunt us.

Was Fer really the only transfer option? Surely there were other players in world football that we could have gone in for. I've got a bad feeling we're gonna miss out again on a CL place which could mean players like Baines and Fellaini leaving the club as they are both too good to not be playing Champions League football – especially Baines who is simply top draw.

John Ford
161 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:33:14
Patrick the only teams who beat the lesser clubs regularly are the money teams above us. They are the only clubs with the squads big enough and with enough top players to do it. No one else other than these teams does it. This is why they win everything. They pay for it.

To answer your question. When wil DMs teams come of age. Maybe this really is as good as it gets? The glass ceiling seems insurmountable at the moment.

I fuckin hate being an also ran, but I'm fairly certain of what (or rather, who) is stopping us progressing

John Ford
162 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:44:30
I can't see us sustaining it Nick. I'd love to be wrong, but we havnt played well for a good while now. We will certainly improve but we have a seriously tough few months, visiting most of the best teams.

A couple new faces today would have been a real boost.

Andy Veitch
163 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:43:59
Moyes obviously had next week's game v Man Utd in mind. We have no right fullback fit. He rested Neville for next week with the intention that Jagielka, Heitinga, Distin and Baines could deal with the likes of Villa.
They didn't; poor display defence-wise but let's move on, we're still up there with the rest of them.
Barry Rathbone
164 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:38:40
Andy... the irritating thing about Duffy is he proved up to it last year.

I wouldn't mind betting he could have done a job at full back leaving Jags in the centre, Johnny just hasn't been at the races this year dreadfully out of form.

Moyes gets away with these decisions in the league because there's always another day and in truth no-one really believes CL is a goer.

7th to 10th or "top half challenging for europe" as it's trumpeted keeps him, Bill and co in clover - crap it is.

Derek Thomas
165 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:45:58
Nick#239 just checking, was that with sarcasm font On or Off, tbh i'm not sure what answer worrys me more.

We did limp over the 4th line in 04-05

We will be lucky to limp over it again this season.

Which doen't mean that it isn't an all out scrap in a competitive league; and if it is as you say an all out scrap any one who does finish 4th may well limp / drag / stumble over the line in the manner of rubberlegged marathon runners.

I also, having no great admiration for the FSW hearby extent the line to 3rd and include Chelsea in it...but not the RS

John Crawley
166 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:34:57
John 241 - Of course we can challenge the teams around us with our squad. What do you think we have been doing for the past 24 games!! How you can say it won't make a difference to try other players out is pretty bizarre. Heitinga has stunk all season and has cost us goal after goal after goal. I fail to see how Duffy or anybody else couldn't have been an improvement, wouldn't have resulted in a better defense and won us some extra points.

Moyes does not trust young players he will pick an experience pro over them every time, no matter how crap the pro is playing. Duffy should have been give a chance this season at times but he hasn't. Part of Moyes weakness is his reactive nature, instead of picking his best team he changes it to deal with the other teams strengths. So we don't want Neville up against a pacy left midfielder. Seriously against a team like Villa pick your best team and let them worry about you.

The centre half partnership is arguably the most important one in the team, you shouldn't mess around with it unless you have to. Today we didn't have to, we could have played either Neville or Oveido at right back, either one would have been an improvement on breaking up the Jags/Distin partnership.

Brendan McLaughlin
167 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:51:51
Andy..just ignore Barry. I mean Duffy (he know's your achilles) He's just trying to draw you back......
Phil Sammon
168 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:06:10
Shane Duffy on Twitter: @ShaneDuffy34: Great spirt to come back. Well done lads! Away on international duty next week hopefully get a game lol

Not the first comment he's made about lack of game time. He's said previously that he's tried to get out on loan. His lack of pace is a real issue for me...but he does deserve a shot.

John Ford
169 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:59:38
John, Duffy played a few games and looked ok, but I'm pretty sure if he offered an obvious improvement he would be starting. I agree though, Moyes does stick with out of form players too much.

I don't think bringing other squad players in will make a real difference because I don't think theyre good enough. This reflects our core weakness- enough quality players. Again I'm more than happy to bee proved wrong. The way I see it we have a good team when everyone is fit and on form, and a manager who generally gets the best out of them. Today we had too many players off colour.

Ok we're challenging, but were hanging in their, just on the periphery. Maybe I should be more positive , but it felt pretty rough today.

Im sure it'll all look a good deal better by about Tuesday!

Andy Meighan
170 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:49:04
Ralph (#152) is this the same side who rolled over for the grand master first game of the season or the same side who pulled back 2 goal deficits twice last season which ultimatley cost Man Utd the league? Yeah... sure; we'll roll over for them.
Tony Marsh
171 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:06:58
Only a bellend messes around with the back four, unsettling the whole team. We are playing Aston Villa, FFS... Why does Moyes continue with this ludicrous fear of the opposition, even when it's the shittest team in the League???

I don't think the shambolic transfer window helped moral either. The team and the fans were flat as a pancake and who could blame them?

That was a must win game today but we blew it. I don't think CL is even a possibility after that. Jesus, imagine the fear in Moyes if we had to play a decent side to qualify? Moyes would crap his undies!

James Bourne
172 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:17:28
Yep JH had a mare but FFS we're 5th competing with spurs and arsenal for 4th spot - get in the real world and think how the fuck we are doing it - both have bigger fan bases, bigger revenues, bigger squads so have a bit of fucking pride in your team and stop knocking it.
Dominic Bobadilla
173 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:23:22
# 260: The Golden Award of Defeatism for you: I hope you took note of the fact that Chelsea lost today. Yes, we should have won today, but the fight for the CL is still on. Chelsea lost three points today and Spurs will lose three tomorrow. Now get behind the team and pray to the Lord that Neville stays out of it ad aeternitatem.
Ian Glassey
174 Posted 02/02/2013 at 20:19:43
You just knew that was going to happen today, I think the life has been drained out
of the squad. I think all the players were expecting some new faces, but they know
the board don't give a fuck.
Dont start me on Johnny what a waste of space but Moyes must take the blame for playing him there. To many out of form, running on empty players. The board must
love Everton (i think not)...
Andy Meighan
175 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:13:20
Yeah sure, Heitinga was bad... but surely after the mistake against WBA, he should've been benched. But let's bę fair – he's not alone, is he? Osman, Neville, Fellaini and Piennar WBA apart have stunk the yard out for weeks. But there's not a prayer he'd bench them. Oh no... not the Finch Farm mafia – it wouldn't be the done thing.
Barry Rathbone
178 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:25:09
James Bourne .... "pride in your team" eh?

You slip in Arsenal and Spurs have bigger fan bases than us - you cheeky potato.

They don't have fans... they have people who call in en route to cello lessons for the kids.

Sam Hoare
179 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:26:38
Mosephiles (like myself) are often accused off never accepting criticism of him. He got it wrong today. Heitinga has been shown before to be susceptible to pace and power and so it proved today. Had Jags started at CB I think we may have won comfortably.

Truth of it now is that a CL place will probably require a win at White hart lane and maybe another win at either Old Trafford, Stamford Bridge, Emirates or (hopefully) Analfield.

Ian Smitham
181 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:33:57
Tony, #260, I am sure that I have seen somewhere that Pip is not fit. I have read loads on here that he should not be in the team. With that in mind, aside from playing his most experienced international class defenders, what else could have been done today please? Only talking about the back four.
Pat Waine
182 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:42:41
That has to be the worst defencive performanace from an Everton defender since the days of Earl Barrett, Mick Bernard etc.

Heitinga was CRAP!!!!!

Trevor Lynes
183 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:27:57
I agree with Mick (#210).

People complain about team selection but we have no alternatives. My only suggestion would have been to play Duffy instead of Heitinga or keep Jags and Distin together and play Neville or Oviedo at right back. They are our only alternatives at this stage.

We have used less players so far than any other side and that is why Pienaar and Osman are looking jaded we have no alternatives of quality.

None of the above reasons are the fault of the manager, its the fault of the board and our scouting system who have not found any good youngsters. That is why we bought Stones at the last minute.

I have said before that if Fer had been scouted and watched for months as reported. WHY did we wait until the end of the transfer window to bid for him? If we had brought the lad over for a medical a few weeks ago we would have had more time to bid for alternatives...

All the chatter about team selection is nonsense, the manager has the weakest bench in the division and realistically he only has 14 or 15 players to pick from. If Gueye had not gone on loan, he would have been on the bench!!! FACT!!!

Patrick Murphy
184 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:49:17
Sam I think we'll have to win at least 2 of those big games at our bogey grounds and not lose the other games either, due to the number of points we've lost at home. To still have to face 6 out of the top 7 teams at this stage of the season, with only 1 at Goodison would test the mettle of any team, never mind Everton, that's why these slip-ups are more important than some realise.
Si Cooper
185 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:01:24
To be fair Sam (#273), parting the Red Sea and leading the Israelites to the promised land is hard to knock.

Didn't realise the great man was advising Davey on team selection though.

Derek Thomas
186 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:50:26
Big, Young, Fast, Likes to get forward, and he should be able to tackle a bit playing for Barnsley in that Division.

Will Moyes grasp the nettle, and make it a clean sweep of out of form favourites.

Has he the 'Stones'?

Would it help if he was called Joao Stoniniho.

Just what our our options? Hibbo, Coleman, injured, Neville, crap at the best of times recently and I don't think his knee is full fit. Jags? not if it means Johnny H. Ovideo...

If Moyes changes anything it will be Ovideo or maybe rush Coleman back in too quick.

Not many options.

Ian Glassey
187 Posted 02/02/2013 at 21:52:42
I have most of the time stood up for Moyes, I know he has fucked up many times. But I always thought were would we be without him. Well maybe it,s time for a change, new ideas new system new manager. Martinez or Laudrup anyone
Colin Glassar
188 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:12:38
I hope Moyes watches motd or football first tonight. Michu = 2m, Sisokko = 2m and he can't even find a player for 8m+? Lmao at you Moyes and your feeble excuses.
Zaid Omar
189 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:16:36
As much as it seems as though it was 2 points dropped, the teams around us are also consistently dropping points , and not only to the top teams.. The fact is , there are no longer any clear cut games in the premiership (look at Chelsea the other day against reading , and spurs against Norwich ).. The fact that we not losing games and showing a fighting spirit will pay dividends in the long run, and I feel that it's this fighting spirit that will hopefully give us the edge over the teams around us.. Hope I'm right..
Kevin Tully
190 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:09:45
Moyes will have to have a complete personality change if we are to reach 4th.

It means going to grounds we have never won at, and throw caution to the wind. I don't see what he has to lose to be honest, we are not expected to win these games, and there are ready made excuses if we get beat.

Mike Gaynes
191 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:03:08
Not that Heitinga doesn't deserve every bit of the stick he is getting, but where's the stick for Baines? I can't believe Paul David rated him a 7... what game was he watching? After his midweek brilliance, Baines was TERRIBLE today, at least for the first 92 minutes... every single cross was crap and every free kick and corner was misdirected until the very last one to Fellaini. The pass he made at 33 minutes after Vic sent him free was the worst I've ever seen from him... he was wide open and put it four yards behind Fellaini. If we'd scored then it would have been 2-2 and a completely different game. And let's not forget the bungled offside trap on Weimann... Baines just let him go and gifted him a breakaway that he fortunately missed.

Hate to break up the Heitinga chorus, but when your best player is as bad as Baines was today, somebody should mention it.

Ady Haggar
192 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:31:36
Have to laugh when people write that we should have brought xyz even though 99% of people have no idea who they are and have never seen them play!!! And the next rant is people moaning that we needed new players because the squad is tired/worn out etc!!!!!!!! Fuck me but these blokes play football once a week for mega bucks!!!! We have lost a bit of spark lately but we are still 1 point off 4th – we are Everton!
Gavin Ramejkis
193 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:25:27
To those asking what else could he have done, well a review of the players who are off form and costing goals should be a given for a football manager, have the cojones and nous to say enough is enough and try an alternative, if Neville is injured then look to Oviedo as a stand in or give Duffy with his height a go with two old heads around him to direct as appropriate but he's not a 15 year old kid.

To those saying the teams about us in competition for fourth are also losing games or drawing them, so fucking what those are beyond our control and whats more even the more galling looking at lost opportunities to leapfrog them or at least close the gap down to goal difference.

John Malone
194 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:12:24
I'm sorry, Johnny, you're shite, always have been, always will be.

There was a debate on here last year when Johnny won Player of the Year and some on here were saying he made Distin look good. I couldn't believe what I was reading, the way I put it was who would you rather have two Heitingas or two Distins? It's a no-brainer: Distin is strong in the air strong in the tackle and a strong runner; Heitinga is none of them. I'd say Hetinga's best features are he reads the game well and can hit a long range pass his problem is actually defending.

Even after saying all this I'd blame today's defeat on Moyes's for the fact he knows Heitinga's weaknesses hence the fact he's been out of favour most of season, but he still chose to play him up against one of the most dangerous and powerful centre forwards in the Prem. I know his options were limited but he could of played Duffy who impressed last year or played Oviedo at full back I don't expect Heitinga to play again for Everton in the Prem.

Jay Harris
195 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:32:02
Everton 3 Heitiga 3

Although I blame the manager not JH.

After his mistake brought West Brom back into the game the other night a large number of us said he should not play CB again.

If Duffy Oviedo Stones or Neville (if fit) are not better options than a player whose confidence is totally shot then I should give up watching football.

But for JH and some debatable offside decisions we should have won this game comfortably.

Ady Haggar
196 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:36:32
Please, people – stop saying we needed new players because the squad are tired/worn out etc!! They play 90 minutes of football once a week for megabucks, wouldn't we all love that instead of the grind of 40 hours a week for a shite wage!!!

Moyes has to shoulder a lot of the blame because I hate his love of certain players who can do no wrong and get picked regardless, we had it with Cahill and now its JH, Neville and Osman!!! Why do we buy talented players like Oviedo, Kennedy, Vellios when he is just going to take the piss out of them????

With the funds made available to Moyes we are never going to finish in the top 4, we are supposedly the 21st richest club in the world, we have the most millionaires on a board of any team yet we are constantly saying we are skint!!! Somebody somewhere is seriously taking the piss!!! We need Kenwright and his hangers-on to do one ASAP and get someone in who will give Martinez some money to get us up where we belong!!!!!

Si Cooper
197 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:38:33
How can Newcastle find a player like Sissoko for £2 million?

Okay, he may not sustain it but at the moment he looks well suited to the English game and at 23 has played something like 220 appearances.

Derek Thomas
198 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:40:19
Why are most people missing the Emperors new clothes in the title. Not the fightback per se but why we have to have so many fightbacks over the years

Groundhog Poor Plan A to start with

Groundhog selections.

Groundhog early daft goal given away.

Groundhog Fightback to be sure.

Groundgog Game

Groundhog Result

Groundhog Season

Jamie Crowley
199 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:49:40
I have to go back to comments Andy Crooks and others have made re Duffy.

Every time I've seen the kid play I've thought he's looked very good. He never seems to get a chance. Today was begging form it IMO. IF (and this is highly debatable) you're gonna have Jags at RB and the CB is having a horrid game, why not give the kid a chance?

I know Moyes sees him every day in practice - yadda yadda. He just can't get any time and it has to hurt his development.

Sir Alex always seems to be able to run out younger kids here and there for a meaningful 30 minutes. Moyes gives our kids 4 minute cameos at the 88th minute and it's frustrating as hell.

Poor Duffy.

Sam Hoare
200 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:05:31
Si Cooper. I agree. Have no idea why we didn't sign Sissoko or at least bid for him. Very similar player to Fer, except with 6 months on his contract so only cost £2m. Surely a total no brainer given our need for a fit, powerful central midfielder? Very strange oversight.
James Bourne
201 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:56:28
Barry at 272 my friend I'm not comparing quality of fans as we are the fucking best there is although we do have a tendency for moaning!!!!! My point is spurs and the arse have more of the fuckers who turn up for the matches and buy shirts etc so the club has more cash which makes the managers' life easier.

I know some on here claim it all ain't about cash but facts speak for themselves as cash has made shitty clubs like chelski and city so successful. Yep moyes ain't perfect yep he makes mistakes but back to my point we're 5th with no investment for years so take a little satisfaction and also enjoy watching, at times, some great football.

Mark Wilson
202 Posted 02/02/2013 at 22:20:07
Us supporters may not have what it takes to be a top class Premiership manager but amazingly we know a huge managerial clock up when we see it and today's game was a classic of the genre. Radio pundits predicted it. Fans having a pre match bevvie saw it coming. The steward on our gate cheerfully told us exactly what was about to happen and bizarrely it took just a couple of minutes to actually result in the mess that was one nil to the Villa.

Sorry Davey but Jags at RB at Johnny at centre against Benteke was, well, your worst decision since you picked reserve teams at Leeds and the Shite. It happens, you got it wrong and I think you get it right, a lot. But this defeat had bugger all to do with disappointing deadline day or a small squad. It was just a huge tactical mess coupled with one of the worst CB displays from JH you will see in a very long time.

I am struggling to believe what I'm reading here though about other aspects of our performance. We were strong going forward all the game. Better than that in fact, we battered them having vastly the best of possession, shots at goal, on target, corners. True, we didn't make the corners count as we should until the end. They made five good chances and scored three and worked their socks off and credit to them for that. I thought Felli was far better than just that exceptional last 20 mins.

Still, the general feeling is one of disappointment and those two lost points will cost us in the hunt for fourth place. Next week it's Man Utd and I'm hoping that if Coleman and Hibbo are still missing (likely) then the much maligned skipper needs to start at right back and, controversially I guess, I'd play Oviedo alongside Gibson, and give Osman a rest....won't happen will it but he's played there before, adds defensive strength and can run with the ball and best of all.... he has a good cross in him. We have to have Jags and Distin back together and frankly I'd rather risk Duffy on the bench and drop Johnny entirely, he was so bad today it simply defies description and frankly I think he cost us all three goals.

Dave Lynch
203 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:02:02
Derek Thomas stole my thunder.

You just somehow know we are going to have a shite 2nd half to the season, with Moyes making baffling selections, the Shite wiping the floor with us at their gaffe and the usual exit in the FA Cup just when you think me might have a squeak at winning it.

8th is it then.

Gavin Ramejkis
204 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:05:59
Jamie I've always questioned that tired line "Moyes sees them at Finch Farm" baloney, remember the Coleman cameo appearance earning him MOTM only to disappear from the face of the earth, he then tried everyone but Coleman on the wing until eventually he had no alternative to play him and there he welded himself for months on end not the greatest but better than Osman and others he tried. This masterstroke of seeing him at Finch Farm must have been through margarine coated glasses. Moyes is a stubborn get who only listens to himself.

Duffy has always seemed confident and strong on the ball and looks to pass the ball out of defence.

Ian Smitham
205 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:15:16
It seems to change regularly, but does anyone know what this years Chapions league qualifications are and then also the Europa league?
Si Cooper
206 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:04:25
Mike Gaynes (#286) - was that perhaps Pienaar (crossing left footed) not Baines? or did they both do something similar?

On Football First Fellaini looked like he was getting involved from the off though I haven't watched the second half yet (choosing to see the coverage and analysis on MotD first).

Haven't worked out exactly what the formation was supposed to be. On Wednesday Fellaini was pushing forward from the back quite late on in the moves, whereas today he was vacating that area quite quickly which gave them opportunities to break quite easily if we lost the ball as Ossie and Gibson couldn't fill in as effectively.

Their first was ridiculous and for their second Heitinga should have been right next to Agbonglahor and jumping with him. Their third was clearly offside though (ignored in the MotD analysis) and I am not sure what he could have done once Benteke was goal-side with that superb delivery.

Patrick Murphy
207 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:09:20
Why did DM wait until we conceded a third goal before he rang the changes Jelavic and Oviedo should have come on at half-time, but as usual he waited and waited and waited.
He says he has no complaints overall with the defence this season, but we have already conceded 30 and only conceded 40 for the whole of last season. Admittedly we have scored 40 and only scored a total of 50 last season.

Mike Gaynes
208 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:42:47
Si (304), I was referring to that play at 33 minutes when Vic backheeled so nicely and Baines cut in behind him and took the ball to the end line. He had Fellaini going to the near post for a tap-in and rolled the ball far behind him.

And did you see how far off target he was on those two 90th-minute corners immediately before Fellaini's goal? One was ten yards beyond everybody and the other was drilled into the front defender's forehead.

Pienaar badly missed some passes today too, but we expect that from him... his passing has been wildly inaccurate over the past dozen games or so. From Bainesy, we expect far better, and almost always get it.

Whatever he had for breakfast today, somebody should tell his wife never to make it again. We're going to need the normal superstar Bainesy for Old Trafford.

Si Cooper
209 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:51:31
Fair do's Mike.

Our final ball has often been a problem this season with, for me, Jelavic having been lambasted at times when the delivery hasn't really helped. Not saying he hasn't been off form for a long time, just that he has been overly criticised at times.

Ernie Baywood
210 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:52:15
No excuse for picking Heitinga today. The options were there and he chose the wrong one.

If Moyes can claim credit when a sub somehow works out (JH against Bolton) then he can cop criticism when he clearly gets it wrong.

We had one senior right back fit and he was on the bench. Madness.

Dominic Bobadilla
211 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:30:56
#310 Moyes deserves a medal for picking someone...anyone ahead of this "senior right back".
Dominic Bobadilla
212 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:32:28
#310...I would rather start the game with 10 men.
Peter Jones
213 Posted 02/02/2013 at 23:56:01
What's amazing to me isn't the selection of Heitinga in the side, but rather the belief Moyes has in him to defend the most athletic, technically gifted player on the opposing team. Why is he marking Lukaku or Benteke when we have our own athletic freak of nature in Distin? I will never understand that. Heitinga can't mark players of that athletic ability.

So why wouldn't Distin, the center half with the most recovery speed on our team be the one marking Benteke? It's common sense man. Just like Oviedo & Naismith out wide. Just like Naismith/Anichebe/Naismith are not wingers.

Moyes is an excellent manager in the transfer market when given the funds, a brilliant coach, and a terrific motivator. His main weakness is assigning players roles that don't necessarily fit them or giving a player a role that maybe someone else on the team is better equipped to handle. I think today was a prime example of that.

Doesn't make him a bad manager. He's excellent. But objectively speaking, I think you have to acknowledge this. Makes watching the games easier.

Peter Jones
214 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:35:39
Meant to say Gueye on the second Naismith, but it is hilarious reading it back.
Dominic Bobadilla
215 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:39:04
#313: A lot can be said in hindsight. JH has 85 caps for one of the finest teams in this world. Before this game everyone was talking about Abgonlahor. No one mentioned Benteke. Hardly anyone mentioned Benteke.
Patrick Murphy
216 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:46:31
If they didn't mention Benteke, they should have done, he has shown enough this season that he is a top player. I hadn't realised that our record against Villa at Goodison was so poor in recent seasons, last Everton PL win in 2006.
Si Cooper
217 Posted 03/02/2013 at 00:59:07
Mike Gaynes, have watched the extended highlights and you are definitely being too harsh on Baines (a lot or a little I can't really say without having seen the whole game).

For instance, one free kick in the second half was absolutely bang on the money and if Fellaini hadn't been man-handled it would have fallen right on his nut. I am surprised we didn't appeal for a penalty though Fellaini was left on the ground after colliding with the keeper.

The corner in the dying minutes you claim was 10 yards over-hit was intended to be a back post one from its trajectory and was perhaps 1 yard too far for Jags, who actually would have been better leaving it for Naismith who was waiting for it.

There were other occasions where his delivery only required a player to be really attacking the danger area for it to lead to something.

Not saying he was up to his usual standard but to say his first/ only good delivery was for Fellaini's second goal is stretching it too far.

Peter Jones
218 Posted 03/02/2013 at 01:19:48
Benteke has been their player of the season thus far Dominic. This isn't hindsight. If people were talking about Gabby being Villa's key player, they haven't been paying attention to Aston Villa this season. Everything good going forward begins and usually ends with Benteke. This was true before the game as it is now.
Dominic Bobadilla
219 Posted 03/02/2013 at 01:38:18
Like you I want what is in the best interest of the club. The fact that Oviedo came on rather than Neville is what I deem progress. We do not need Neville. He should retire sooner rather than later. An utter liability; that's what he is. If he made into the first eleven of a team in a the Championship, it would be miracle greater than the immaculate conception.
Jim Knightley
220 Posted 03/02/2013 at 02:25:51
Benteke was no surprise... he has been a revelation for Villa this season, and I cant see him being at the club beyond the summer. Honestly, I think he would be a perfect buy for us...

And Neville is a crap footballer...in the sense that im sure there are a lot of conference players with better passing ability. But he does hold his position, he does fill in where he should, and he can motivate. It is too easy to forget that, and too easy to underestimate the effects of that on the team. Today we were left far too exposed...more exposed than I've seen us all season in parts of that match, and part of that goes down to the absence of Neville imo (although Gibson was unusually ineffective, presumably before of lacking match fitness/sharpness).

I also thought Baines delivery was poor, in view of his usually fantastic technique, and he shouldn't have tried to play offside at the start of the second half (Almost leading to a third goal before their third goal for...Weimann was it?). But I don't agree that he was terrible...I think we are spoilt with his level of deliveries, and today he was less consistent than normal.

I also liked the look of Oviedo when he came on...but honestly, I'm worried he is too lightweight. Pienaar is small, but very strong...whereas Oviedo looks like he hasn't learnt to protect the ball yet.

Paul Ward
221 Posted 03/02/2013 at 02:50:02
It is ironic that Moyes signs these great young prospects like Stones, Duffy and Barclay then loans them out and or refuses to give them a chance. Because as soon as maybe next season he is going to have to replace about 6 of the present first team. Apart from Howard ,Osman, Heitinger and Neville not being good enough now, just look how old this team is. There is only a couple of players this side of 30. So if gutless Moyes can not blood one of these kids every so often what are the chances of him playing 2 or 3 if needed.
Jamie Crowley
222 Posted 03/02/2013 at 03:14:42
Amen Paul. Amen Gavin.

This bring them in slowly argument with the young kids - I understand it.

But my Lord Moyes has a snail's pace bringing on youngsters and Gavin is spot on when he says Moyes only does it when forced, then shuts off the spicket.

I remember Coleman's game perfectly. Shined. Then benched. And Duffy - I can't remember the opponent offhand but he played in the back with Heitinga (irony!) and had a great game and hasn't seen the light of day since. Coleman finally busted through thanks to injuries and IMO is a darn good little player. Duffy seems to have all the tools so I guess he'll have to wait to see any meaningful time until Jags and Distin get hurt.

Just don't get it.

Hell Baines couldn't even get a game when he came from Bolton! Anyone remember that?

If guys are off form, shoot a rocket in their ass, bench them, and throw one of these young guys out there to give them a shot and create some competition of places.

I really do like Moyes, but his attitude towards the younger players baffles sometimes.

Dominic Bobadilla
223 Posted 03/02/2013 at 05:36:26
Some heads should be rolling by now. What Goodison needs is a purge. Certain individuals should never put on the royal blue jersey again. No more forever. Today Oviedo rendered Neville superfluous. Thank god for that. I am sick and tired of the ancien regime. Neville is free to pay to lip service to his master on Twitter.

This is my message to you, Neville: I do not ever want see you in the royal blue jersey of Everton. Never again. Ja, you may have played for Man Utd, but that means nothing to me. Goodbye forever!

Ernie Baywood
224 Posted 03/02/2013 at 06:05:08
Neville/Jag/Distin/Baines

Beats

Jag/Heitinga/Distin/Baines

Neville might not be everyone's cup of tea but he IS a right back. And it's not like he's never played against anyone with pace before - most wingers have a bit.

You can't weaken 2 of your 4 defensive positions and hope for the best.

Tony J Williams
225 Posted 03/02/2013 at 08:37:02
Jamie, Baines came from Wigan and was being kept out by Lescott, who was in the form of his life and had just earned an England call up due to his form.

Someone above says Moyes always picks his favourites no matter what? Heitinga has hardly played this season, so what's that about?

Moyes got it wrong with Heitinga but that doesn't excuse the shit performances by Howard and Pienaar.

Ken Crowther
226 Posted 03/02/2013 at 08:37:22
Jamie Crowlie #335 - you've obviously got a very good memory "Baines couldn't even get a game when he came from Bolton".

He came from Wigan, you plank!

John Audsley
227 Posted 03/02/2013 at 09:02:38
JH is getting all the shite but a few others had very poor games and have had poor games for a while

Howard = poor
Pienaar = poor
Osman = poor

and it took 60 mins for Felli to get into stride and prove what a great player he can be

JH played his worst game ever for EFC but don't forget how poorly others played.

John Ford
228 Posted 03/02/2013 at 09:18:13
Piennar did pretty much everything right until either the final ball or worse yet his shooting. How many times did he find space down the left, often at the edge of the box? His build up play was good, then it just didnt happen for him.

John Ford
229 Posted 03/02/2013 at 09:21:08
Jim Knghtley, I couldn't agree more re Oviedo. Sometimes he looks like a boy amongst men. His tight control is suspect at the moment and he lacks the basic strength.

He has bags of energy though and can see a pass so hopefully he'll grow into the premier league.

Mike Gwyer
230 Posted 03/02/2013 at 09:14:01

Lots of bad karma on this thread and most of it is going to Moyes. It was a game we had to win, we all know that, but we didn’t and with two more relegation teams still to come to GP it will be interesting to see how Moyes plays them.

Lots of questions have been asked by the TW crew and the tactic analysts have all given their two pence worth, but at the end of the day we have to believe that the team Moyes sends onto the pitch is best team we have available. Posters like Andy Crooks want to see Duffy in the first 11; however, Moyes has the boy on the bench so Moyes is obviously aware of how good he is. A world cup finalist, a Dutch international, player of the season last year against Duffy, who has spent most of his days at Donacaster. That vote was only going to go one way – however, will Andy Crooks get his day? JH went was dragged off yesterday for a left footer to play at RB, you could see that Moyes was pissed. Is that the last we will see of JH at GP wearing the Chang shirt? I do believe that Jogging back with the Villa forward, who then powers in their first goal does not cut it with Moyes, and you know what, when was the last time JH was booked? Think he had 7 yellows and 1 red last season, yet no cards this season, not a single yellow to his name. For their first goal he had plenty of opportunity to take a yellow, but he chose to let the villa boy out muscle him.

We have to believe that the away games against Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and that fucking lot across the park will be similar to the games at GP, where we gave them all a good game and really should have won all 5 games not just two. For me it is still very much game on.

James Bourne - fan base, Spurs, bigger than us. Please.

Mike Gaynes – spot on regarding Baines, who played like a winger yesterday (a shite one at that) giving Distin twice the work-load.

Dennis Shaw
231 Posted 03/02/2013 at 10:40:15
On a side issue what's with Everton in the community on the shirts have Chang gone bust.
Kunal Desai
232 Posted 03/02/2013 at 11:02:20
No team in their right mind will want to touch Heitinga hence the reason why he hasn't already moved one. I think we're stuck with him for a while.
Philip Quilliam
233 Posted 03/02/2013 at 11:45:35
The main problem we have is that we are playing in the best and most competitive league in the world. This means that all the teams that we play against have players that will hurt us if we have guys who are not at the top of their game and regrettably that was JH.
Gavin Ramejkis
234 Posted 03/02/2013 at 12:45:09
Off on a tangent but Dickov has parted company with Oldham, will it have the same effect as Southampton getting shut of their manager before playing us?
Karl Meighan
235 Posted 03/02/2013 at 12:27:03
Distin,Heitinga and Jageilka are 3 of the poorest defenders in the Prem add that to a goalkeeper who is concreted to the goalline and what you get is big trouble with needing to score 2 and 3 goals a game which becomes impossible.

30 seconds before Villa's 3rd Howard could have caught a ball that was 2 yards from his goalline but instead he has Distin panicking like fuck to head it straight back to the opponents without a Villa shirt in sight. The first goal Benteke didn't even have to lean on Heitinga who looked like he was running in concrete and thats in the first minute and that brainless fucker Jageilka ive never seen a player who does not want the ball and does not know what to do with it.

There not the only ones either Osman has been total shite for weeks, Gibson was poor yeaterday with Mirralles possibly the worst player on the pitch. How Moyes can say we played well is as deluded as thinking we will finish fourth.

If Baines and Piennar don't fire we are fucked, even Felliani yesterday until his 2 late goals offered very little. Vic was my MOM and he tailed off second half mainly due to the piss poor service given. Alan Shearer said the other day defences are awfull, I would still fancy him to bag 15 a season against some of the shite in the Prem.

Kev Johnson
236 Posted 03/02/2013 at 12:47:13
Gavin - I think the Oldham chairman was finally unable to resist the temptation to utter the immortal line: "Dick off, Dickov".

Whether it will help or hinder us in the cup game, I don't know. I did read that Wabara, the guy who scored with a header in their superb victory against The Others, has now moved on. He was on loan from Man City, but he's gone on loan somewhere else. Anything that weakens their team is a big plus for us. Listen to me, worrying about Oldham!

David Price
237 Posted 03/02/2013 at 13:16:57
Thought the fans were brilliant yesterday, always behind the team and urging them on. The players responded well and for reasons already stated we didn't win the game.
Tough one next week but we will give them a game and could upset the odds again.
I think Moyes will know he got it wrong and yes, should have realised that after Wednesday but that's what happens when options are limited.
Kev Johnson
238 Posted 03/02/2013 at 13:28:27
And that was the weather. Now for the good news...

If West Brom beat Spurs 3-0 today, we're back in a Champions League place! Improbably, but possible.

More realistically, I see no reason at all why we can't finish the season in the top 4. That's not because we are playing well ourselves, it's because our rivals are just as flaky as us at the moment. Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Lpoo are all struggling to find consistent good form. As things stand, it's wide open. There are 13 games left and it's all to play for.

Jim Knightley
239 Posted 03/02/2013 at 13:31:31
Karl:

'Distin,Heitinga and Jageilka are 3 of the poorest defenders in the Prem add that to a goalkeeper who is concreted to the goalline and what you get is big trouble with needing to score 2 and 3 goals a game which becomes impossible.'

Distin and Jags are poor defenders...you are off your rocker. Even after yesterday, we've conceded 30 goals, which is the joint sixth best in the division, and Chelski, who have the second best defence in the league, have conceded 27 goals. Do you even watch other teams play football? or understand what constitutes a bad defender? Distin and Jags are certainly not bad defenders...and they have not played badly this season. Heitinga has, but they certainly haven't.

And Heitinga is not a bad defender...but his confidence has gone, and he doesn't suit our system. In a deep defensive formation, aka the Everton of last season, Heitinga is a great defender. In an attacking formation, where Heitinga will be left one on one on occasions, he is a poor defender, aka the Holland of the Euros, or the Everton of this season. Duffy hasn't the right ability to play CB with this build either...(esp as the centre backs are left exposed far too often, and rely on pace/last ditch tacking). We need Jags and Distin at the back, with a right back at right back, and we should have brought in a DM in Jan. Given that Coleman and Hibbert are out, and Stones didn't come in until Thursday, we were completely out of options for Saturday. There is no way in hell we can expect an 18 year old Championship right back to come into a Prem first 11 without training and start. We did what a did yesterday for a reason...the only amendment I would have preferred was Jags central, and Heitinga right back, as Heitinga has functioned as a makeshift RB in the past, and Jags would have dealt with Benteke better.

Dave Long
240 Posted 03/02/2013 at 13:38:37
James Bourne, The humor, knowledge and passion of the everton faithful should never be compared to arsenal fans. I was in highbury many moons ago, the contrast with goodison was startling.
Gavin Ramejkis
241 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:15:29
Kev, Defoe has gone off injured which leaves them with no striker cover, its still 0-0
Graham Mockford
242 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:16:46
James Morgan #098

Exactly as they were when we last spoke

James Bourne
243 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:16:01
Dave I was very careful to state that evertonians are the finest fans in the land. My point was that other clubs have more fans and sell more shirts which means less cash for the manager and in spite of this we are still 5th so we should be proud of where we are at the moment rather than fucking moaning the whole time.
John Ford
244 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:30:55
Amen to that James, but I still wish BK had got of his arse and given us something to shout about I the January sales.

I watchd MOTD last night (with the sound down as I fear I'd want to kill everyone if I listen to the resident experts) . Arsenal scored a winner with about ten minutes to go, and the close up of the crown showed they were just about breaking into polite applause. If we'd have got a winner yesterday the roof would have caved in!

Peter Barry
245 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:33:47
The fact that Everton are still in contention for a 4th place finish and Champions League football after having 12 draws in 25 games says more about the mediocrity of the Premier League than it does for the achievement of Everton.

We are handicapped by a 'safety first', tactically inept manager and a seemingly equally inept medical and backroom coaching staff, just look at all the continual long-term repetitive injuries we have – especially regarding Coleman, Mirallas and Gibson.

Just think what Everton could achieve with a motivational tactically aware manager.

Tony Marsh
246 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:30:12
A few pointers for Moyes and his faithful followers to chew on:

Under no circumstances must you chop and change your central defensive pairing unless through injury. It's a cardinal sin in the football world. Playing Jags at right back was a retarded move and unsettled the whole team.

Do not keep faith in out-of-form players, regardless of their experience or standing in the club. It's gross incompetence. Osman has played way too many games and should've been dropped months ago. When was his last half-decent shift?

Do not adhere to the rigid formations and tactics, game-in & game-out, as different opponents require different tactics and formations. One up-front at home to the likes of Villa is a disgrace and shows them far too much respect.

Why buy a player in the window that we wont play? Forget 'one for the future' — our future is here and now and we should be killing ourselves to make 3rd or 4th place in the Premier League. Futile as this may be, it's our only chance of having a future. A young right back will not help us one bit from the subs bench.

We will never get anywhere as a club/football team as long as our supporters blindly put up with this crap. We haven't had one comfortable win all season due to Moyes's tactics. Even when we won away at Villa and Swansea, we were under the cosh for long periods. Something is wrong with the set-up. Every game is a struggle and I can see us getting a real good hiding very soon if something's not done about it.

Kev Johnson
247 Posted 03/02/2013 at 14:53:40
Come on you Baggies!

Apologies for quoting the fans of a rival team but this (from the BBC live text commentary) made me laugh...

Kyri in London on text via 81111: "As a Spurs fan I think we'll be absolutely fine for top four finish. Wait, other teams don't annually capitulate come February like we do? They have strikers you say? Oh..."

I tell you, we're all the same leaky boat at the moment - Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Lpool and us. It's a question of who can swim to shore quickest!

James Morgan
248 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:08:05
Graham,
That's fine but after yesterday I'll rightly stick by my consensus of us not beating teams after they've been on terrible runs.
I could feel it in my water yesterday and I was proved right.
Jamie Crowley
249 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:10:25
Oops. you are right. Wigan....

It was like midnight over here....

Point is still valid, plank or not, and Lescott may of been in form, but he was being played out of position in favor of Baines. Never seen Moyes do that before....

Gavin Ramejkis
250 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:16:21
Kev, stupidity from Popov gobbing on Walker in front of ref got him a red, Galen from Planet of the Apes has scored for Spurs.
John Ford
251 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:17:53
Galen...Hah,.it really is int it.

Holtby looks the real deal. The bastard.

Sam Hoare
252 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:23:01
Goddamn Bale! Without him Spurs would barely be in the top 10! Why on earth we did not try and get either Holtby or Sissoko (maybe we did) I don't know.
Ray Roche
253 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:22:00
John Ford,
Holtby, Sissoko, both a fraction of the (apparent) fee for Fer, and both looking like the real deal. OK, it's early days yet but if we were supposed to be in for Holtby, and didn't try hard enough, why not? And Vadis? IF we had got within a nats whisker of signing him before, why didn't we try again. Maybe because we didn't HAVE £9m after all. Maybe the Fer deal WAS just a smoke screen to appease us thick fans...
Yesterday showed just how fragile our squad really is.
Gavin Ramejkis
254 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:26:51
Peter #482 careful slagging off the EPL or you'll get Quincy Quilliam on doing his Sky advert again.

That's 16 for the season for the chimp and Holtby looks like assured to me, another one we missed out on thanks to that mingebag Kenshite and chums.

Graham Mockford
255 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:25:44
James I think you started by saying losing to but hey let's not split hairs, you keep believing in the face of the actual evidence.
Brian Waring
256 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:32:56
11 goals for Bale Gavin
Brian Waring
257 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:33:53
I know Bales quality but Jamie Redknapp saying Bale is in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo, WTF!
Jim Knightley
258 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:27:50
Lol Ray... fantastic conspiracy theory there. Have you ever considered the possibility that not everyone can be in for the same players? Man Utd need a CM, why weren't they in for Holtby? Why weren't Arsenal? Why weren't Liverpool? Arsenal need a DM, why didn't they go for Sissoko? Why didn't Man Utd as they need one? Or Chelski? Or Swansea?

Fantastic reasoning though... because it was not publicised that we made an offer to Holtby and Sissoko, and because they must be good players after two matches, we can't possibly have made an offer for a more expensive player... Head... Brick Wall!!

And Jamie, Baines became in a fixture in his second season for us... he has matured over that period, and become a truly world class (imo) player in the last couple of seasons. He wasn't the Baines of today when he signed from Wigan. He also made 22 appearances in his first season for us... and started some matches. I don't see where your argument is going; we had a good defence then, we eased him in, and turned Baines into one of the best left backs in the world.

And Yes Tony... never change central defenders. Because Man Utd certainty haven't moved them about... Man City haven't swapped between four, nor Chelski. No, never change the centre-backs....

I also like how you so rigidly state that centre backs shouldn't be changed, but formations should be on a game by game basis... which football teams do that?! I mean Man City switch with a 3-5-2 sometimes, and that's caused them enough problems... sometimes Man Utd will revolve the way the second striker players, and where the wide men start from... but really? Do you think Football is that easy?

And your complaining about one up against Villa? We scored THREE goals. That wasn't the issue. Barcelona play one up... they don't swap to two because the team they are playing is considered worse than others. Chelski, also play one up, and they did alright against Villa... we use attacking wide men, and Fellaini, usually in an advanced position... it's not as simple as one up!

I don't know how you can continue to look at things so so simplistically. Do you work for TalkSport?

Jim Knightley
259 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:42:49
I know Brian...absolute bizzare statement. Bale well never never get near the level of Ronaldo and Messi... he is far to one dimensional, and does not have the goal scoring capacity of either. At the age of 22, Ronaldo scored 31 goals from a predominantly wide position in this league...I think it is easy to forget that. And 5 years ago the league was far more defensive than it is now.
James Morgan
260 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:48:29
Graham, yes I did and I admitted exaggerating a tad but then I said 'not beating' which is the case on a number of occasions. And against Villa it took a last minute goal to salvage a draw.

I think I get less worried prior to playing a top 5 side than I do a bottom 5. So now it's Wigan, QPR, Reading and Villa this season alone. Hardly the cream of the crop are they?

Steavey Buckley
261 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:54:54
If Everton lose next week and Spurs win, the season is over bar the FA Cup that even Portsmouth managed to win and Everton can't of late.
Roman Sidey
262 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:59:11
Some absolute corkers being thrown around here. I appreciate that the Moyes Apologists are criticising him, but so far I've read that he's reactive to the opposition, he's a great motivator, and... I can't repeat some of it, it's so untrue. Reactive? This man obviously doesn't do the basic research on his opposition before a tie, and waits until we're three goals down before making a change. Motivator? Has anyone seen how motivated our players are? Hint: they look like they're working 9-5 on a union work site, and when up against an inferior team, they act like they would rather be in the living room watching channel five. Southampton on a Monday night anyone?

Moyes showed his true colours in 2005, when comfortably in the top four after a good half season he guided us to three wins in the second half and some abominable losses and/or draws to relegation fodder, scraping in to the top four due to Liverpool losing some aweful games, with a negative goal difference to boot. Seriously, anyone can be motivated enough to play for a draw against Man Utd or a rich-as-shit City, but a good motivator gets his team up for the games against Reading, QPR, Villa, etc.

Ray Roche
263 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:51:16
Jim Knightley @498

Not attempting a conspiracy theory, Jim, just the musing of a puzzled fan as to why, if we had £9m to spend on a player, Fer, who has been on our radar for some time, according to the media, and Moyes, we didn't have a Plan B, C., D all the way to Z? I just don't get it. We all assumed that we have no money (as people like to add at the end of each statement). Fact.

We tried to buy Vadis on loan. But somehow we ferked up the paper work. So, when we get the opportunity to get Vadis again, we don't bother. Instead, we try to sign Fer for more money than any of us thought possible, but, yet again, the deal flounders on the rocks of incompetence.

Other players, like Holtby, who was proclaiming his love for Everton with a regularity that would impress a Swiss watchmaker, and Sissoko were clearly available for a lot less money. I just wonder why no attempt was made to sign them. Fair enough, other clubs are in the market for midfielders but none were interested in Fer? Something just doesn't seem right, Jim.

Ray Roche
264 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:05:01
By the way, Jim, leave the Head-Brick Wall out..you'll end up as mad as me. You know, thinking everthing is a conspiracy.... they're watching me, you know.
Graham Mockford
265 Posted 03/02/2013 at 15:59:35
James

No they are not. Most games go to form some don't. Hence QPR winning at Chelsea, Wigan winning at Spurs or Villa winning at Liverpool. Some believe we should win every game and if we don't it is the end of the world. Yesterday was a big disappointment but ultimately it is about 38 games.

Worrying about the bottom 5 more than the top 5 is clearly an irrational thing to do but there is no accounting for what you feel in your water.

John Ford
266 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:08:51
No conspiracy for me Ray. We seem to do this last minute thing on a consistent basis. I'm of the opinion its in the 'stupid idea' column rather than anything underhand.

It's not unusual for deals to break down late so why conduct business when you've got no chance of looking elsewhere if things go wrong.

Roman Sidey
267 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:08:22
Steavey, I'd go as far as saying if we don't beat Spurs, which will probably be the key game in finishing above them, Moyes should quit football all together. They now have no strikers ( I guess Adebayor will be back soon though), or one striker at best. That isn't a team we should be losing to.
James Morgan
268 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:18:40
Graham,

My water tells me that's 9 points dropped against the bottom four teams!

Ray Roche
269 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:16:01
John @510, I'm not necessarily suggesting that it IS a conspiracy, but I am suggesting that there is gross incompetence in a) Trying to bring in Vadis and then NOT trying to bring in Vadis. If he was worth bringing in in the summer, why not now?> b) Not recognising the availability of Holtby, despite him being on a free in the summer, or a fraction of Fers cost to buy him now. Everone on this website knew he was there for the taking. The "last minute thing" leaves us with no room to manouvre should a deal fall through, which it has on the last two transfer windows. Which is clearly coincidence. Obviously, otherwise it might appear as a conspiracy.
Brian Waring
270 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:23:17
Roman, don't you know? Spurs have got more money than us (turns away whistling)
John Ford
271 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:15:07
Roman, you can't expect to get away with that one mate. That's a very selective rewriting of the events of 2005.

Tommy Gravesen wasn't just playing well that season, he was the best centre midfield in the league at the time. For a short period at the end of the previous season and the first half of the 05 season he was magnificent - the proof? We were flying, and then Real Madrid came in for him. I nearly wept.

There are bigger legends and over a carreer many better players than Tommy at Everton, but I've never seen a blues midfielder dominate games the way he did over that half a season.

When he lost him in January we lost our driving force, enforcer, talisman and all round top dog. We did well to stay fourth, so credit to Moyes and the team for that. I'll say it again, we finished fourth. I'd take that now please.

Steavey Buckley
272 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:11:48
With nothing to play for, when Spurs become unstoppable, Moyes may leave Everton. The players and fans will not be happy and tolerate just playing out the season (an early season that promised so much) and waiting for another season to challenge for the CL, the holy grail of financial future. Fellaini will definitely go, with no CL football on offer, and Baines may decide to leave with him. It will be mostly Moyes fault. Firstly, by not securing another quality midfield before the summer season transfer window closed when Rodwell was sold. And secondly persevering with Neville and Osman in midfield and Heitinga in central defense when even Moyes's most ardent admirer would have disagreed with him with those decisions. Then buying another right sided full back (6 in all who can play in that position, 7 if Oviedo was switched from left to right) where there is greater need in other positions right now.
Ian Allaker
273 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:31:13
Roman, you say " I'd go as far as saying if we don't beat Spurs, which will probably be the key game in finishing above them, Moyes should quit football all together. They now have no strikers "

Should Clarke quit management as well getting beat today by spurs with no strikers?

Should all the mangers quit who we beat when we had no strikers playing Fellaini and Cahill up front?

Get real Roman

Ray Roche
274 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:40:57
Steavey, to be fair, these pages have been littered with people shouting out that we need a replacement for Hibbert, who is apparently rubbish, because Nevilles too old, Colemans better wideright and further forward, Jags is crap (he is at RB) Heitinga is crapper. Bringing in Stones is no bad thing.
Ken Crowther
275 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:44:46
Ian Allaker #517

I've read some ridiculous words on this forum; but you've just won the prize with your...


"Get real Roman"...indeed!

Graham Mockford
276 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:40:10
James

Or 9 points gained, that's a new take on the glass half full thing.

Steavey Buckley
277 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:37:28
Roman Sidey: I have to disagree. Next week is the most important. If Everton lose and Spurs win, 7 points will be the difference, and Spurs will have the momentum in their favour. And Everton are vunerable with Howard in goal (no one to replace him) Heitinga in central defense. Gibson, Coleman and Mirallas getting injured all the time with no real cover. Jelavic has stopped scoring goals. And Anichebe his replacement gets his fair share of injuries as well. Besides alway going off the boil to add to the dilemma.
Sam Hoare
278 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:46:41
Steavey, ' bar the FA Cup that even Portsmouth managed to win'.

So now even if Moyes won the FA cup that would not be good enough?! Ridiculous.

Jamie Barlow
279 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:48:16
Ian, there's been some absolute corkers on here since 5 o'clock Saturday but Roman@511 definitely beats the lot.

I don't know whether he's joking or he's just a .................... I don't know which word describes him best.

Roman Sidey
280 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:51:08
John, fair enough Tommy was immense that year and losing him was a blow, but we did get Arteta in when he left, and we still lost to some terrible teams. I remember losing to WBA and Blackburn in quick succession, not to mention a couple of shockers against Boro. Dreadful drop off and if it weren't for a very inspired performance against Man Utd we would have finished 5th.

Ian, how many of the managers that lost to us when we had Cahill up front are still at that club?

And yes, how WBA didn't get anything from that game today is a mystery, yet, we have a better squad than them, and I don't give a shit about them. It's Everton I love, and if a manager of 11 years with the talented squad that Moyes has can't beat a team without a recognised senior striker, then he is not worth a toss.

Steavey Buckley
281 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:53:40
The FA cup is for losers. Those teams who have no chance of a top 4 position. And even if a team wins the FA cup, what to look forward to? The Europa league. Spurs went meekly out of that competition early in the season when a top 4 position beckoned. Even if Everton go further in the FA competition, it will only matter if the CL place is likely. If and when, Spurs race away with the 4 th spot, fans will start to desert league matches. As fans lose heart and interest.
Sam Hoare
282 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:01:25
Roman, do you really think we have a better squad than Spurs? I'm not so sure.

They will Adebayor back from Africa not to mention Dempsey and Demebele who are both capable of playing up front.

Seems a bit much to demand that we beat Spurs (a team now very close to 3rd) on their home patch.

Jim Knightley
283 Posted 03/02/2013 at 16:54:01
Oo yeah Steavey, good point about Portsmouth...They spent loads of money they didn't have, to get a little success and win an FA Cup...and now they are on the verge of extinction. We should have replicated them eh? question for you Steavey...When was the last time a team still in this league won the FA Cup, without finishing in the top four? I'm not sure...but I'm pretty damn sure Moyes wasn't at Everton then.

And Ray...we don't know if we went for Vadis again...we don't known if Bruge wanted to let him go again. Holtby may have talked about us in the press...but he also talked about Spurs and other teams. Just as Falcao apparently dreams about playing for pretty much every major team he is linked with. I don't know why we didn't seem to have a replacement for Fer...or why we tried to sign him so late, but my guess is that we were negotiating for him for sometime, and were fucked when his knee injury showed up. I expect we tried to sign another midfielder, but couldn't, and so switched our attentions to another area where we were weak, i.e up front.

But let me ask you something...do you think we would have agreed a deal worth over 8million for a midfielder, and got him to come over for a medical, and then bullshited about that medical to avoid paying for him, when not even the most optimistic Everton fan expected us to spend that kind of money?

And Steavey, the difference will be 6 points, not 7, And maybe we will lose and Spurs win...but then Spurs might lose to West Ham and Arsenal, and we might beat Norwich and Reading. Who knows...but I'm not going to give up fourth if the difference is six points in a week's time, and any real Everton fan won't.

Ian Bennett
284 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:13:20
Spurs get more players into a first choice team of x1 plus 3 subs. We probably get 5 tops.
Mark Tanton
285 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:23:40
Spurs are not our only problem. Liverpool will soon be breathing down our necks I fear. They have invested well in Sturridge; a player we can only dream of buying.
Steavey Buckley
286 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:11:03
Ask any top manager of a top team their priorities for any season? They want to win the league, qualify for CL and doing well in it. Winning the FA cup or League when the others are secured is a nice added bonus to round off the season. Their weakened teams are an indication. Doing well, week in week should be Everton's main priority, not winning a cup competition. Nice, but not essential when qualifying for the CL and then doing well in it, once qualification is secured.
Gavin Ramejkis
287 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:22:29
Jim, the trouble with Fer's knee injury is it was well known and he had surgery on it some time ago and played since, even getting man of the match in a game before we bid for him. The deal sounds it failed more down to Kenshite's never never offering rather than worries over his injury, after all didn't we sign both Gibson and Saha in the past knowing the two were made of balsa?

The Toures are heading back to Man City as they've been knocked out in the AFCON Cup, Adebayor is still in it for now.

Andy Crooks
288 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:18:37
Steavey, I have to disagree, The FA cup is a magnificent competition and I will never forget the cup victories. It was the cup final of 1966 that made me an Evertonian, I decided when we were 2-0 down that this ws going to be my team. It's not worth much financially but there are better things than money.

I have bowed to no one in pointing out Moyes's faults over the years but if he wins the FA cup he will deserve plenty of praise. Is there any Evertonian who doesn't fan

Sam Hoare
289 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:28:13
Steavey, how are we a top team? The top teams actually spend money on new players and you may have noticed that we don't! Certainly not compared to the likes of Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea and even RS.

We are the bookies outsiders for a CL place and the fact that we are in contention owes mostly to David Moyes and the team he has built.

Brian Waring
290 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:33:38
See our nearest and dearest are taking the piss out of Man City.
Jamie Barlow
291 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:29:53
It's a bit different spending half a million on a player with injuries or getting a player for nothing.
Graham Mockford
292 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:33:08
Roman

"It's Everton I love, and if a manager of 11 years with the talented squad that Moyes has can't beat a team without a recognised senior striker, then he is not worth a toss."

And you have been an Everton supporter how long?

Sam Hoare
293 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:35:24
RS breathing down our necks...
Ian Bennett
294 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:32:35
Managers make odd decisions. City losing to Liverpool have just taken off silva and brought on Maicon.

Odd decision with Milner, Barry, Garcia, all poor, leaving nasri, Sinclair, tevez on the bench.

Aguero just scored a great goal = 2-2!

Brian Waring
295 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:37:10
What a goal by Aguero!
Kev Johnson
296 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:36:28
Not any more they're not... Come on, you City!
Sam Hoare
297 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:38:37
Come on city! Hate to admit that RS have looked pretty tasty.
Mark Tanton
298 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:41:16
I think we'll turn in our usual Anfield performance later in the spring and that will probably be the day the squeeze past us.
Ray Roche
299 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:32:14
Jim@529
"not even the most optimistic Everton fan expected us to spend that kind of money"
The thing is, Jim, we didn't spend that kind of money. And I will take some convincing that BK would spend that much these days. Sorry, mate, I don't trust that charlatan.
As for the "switched our attentions to another area where we were weak, i.e up front. " Bidding several millions less than a club are likely to accept for a top forward...not going to happen.
I would love us to be able to compete with other clubs in the transfer market but while BK is at the help it will not happen and I also think that Moyes will leave as a result of BK's pathetic stewardship.
James Morgan
300 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:54:26
Graham,

Well if you're happy with that then you are easily satisfied pal!
"9 points gained" against teams in dismal form hardly flies in the face of my argument. Anyway, I think we are going round in circles. Agree to disagree.

Ian Allaker
301 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:52:39
Roman, why do we have such a "talented squad"?

Does Moyes not get any recognition, I suppose it is inspite of Moyes or maybe its all down to Blue Bill.

Jamie Barlow
302 Posted 03/02/2013 at 18:06:05
Life must be a scream for you Mark.
Si Cooper
303 Posted 03/02/2013 at 17:35:23
Jim (#529) - "do you think we would have agreed a deal worth over 8million for a midfielder, and got him to come over for a medical, and then bullshited about that medical to avoid paying for him, when not even the most optimistic Everton fan expected us to spend that kind of money?"

The blunt answer is no, but it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility that with time running our and options limited we put a bid in for a lad with the full intention of talking up a problem we already knew about in order to try to negotiate better terms.

The big questions are were did the money come from and when did it become available. Assuming we aren't really that incompetent, it must have come fairly late in the window and maybe it wasn't in the form of an interest free / low interest loan from one of our wealthy board members. if it was in the form of a short-term high interest loan then it becomes more understandable that BK would have wanted to pay out as little as possible until the new TV money turns up.

That doesn't get him off the hook though. Again assuming that paying back a short-term high interest loan for the full amount offered would have been manageable even if a little painful, then it is still a failure not to use that money for the purpose it was sought for (to boost our chances of CL qualification and conceivably secure the continued services of our manager and important players).

It doesn't change the fact that the deals that the manager initially talked about (loans supposedly funded with the little money that was available from the start) weren't locked up early for some extra security, or the long-term 'bread and butter' deals that the club will increasingly have to rely on (identifying young talent and bringing them in in the hope that they will fulfil their potential or at least recoup the outlay if they fail to make the grade) were apparently ignored in favour of chasing increasingly unlikely targets.

Now we have ITK comments about the club pursuing 6 deals right through until the deadline hour (a case of too MUCH, too late???) or that the lad had dodgy substances in body fluids taken during the medical (but we were still prepared to take him???). Of course these could just be no-marks making out they are more important than they are, but the fact that both are reputed to come from club sources just adds to the general idea that the club may be prepared to try to manipulate public opinion in it's favour by spinning stories when they should be making clear statements on events.

Jason Fox
305 Posted 03/02/2013 at 18:28:41
Defensively shocking yesterday again, Johnny Heitinga needs to get a grip and it's obvious to me what has happened... Last year JH was relieved of duties as a Dancing on Ice judge and he got Player of the Season.

Fast forward a season and JH is once again having to split his time between Dancing on Ice and Everton... seems to me he is distracted and should make up his mind.

So, come on, Jason — I mean, Johnny — skating or football? You can't have both.

Patrick Murphy
306 Posted 03/02/2013 at 18:18:52
Mark if we fail to get anything at OT and if RS beat WBA and a re-arranged game against Swansea at their place on 17th Feb - due to original fixture scheduled for LC Final day - they will already have squeezed past us.
Paul Ferry
307 Posted 03/02/2013 at 18:25:32
The likes of Allaker and Mockford have a jaw-dropping ability to talk shite in the face of, quite frankly, a hatful of evidence to the contrary. The good thing, however, is that the king of Moyes-spin, Mr Hudson, has seen fit to hide this weekend.

Anyway, Mockford (#509): 'Yesterday was a big disappointment but ultimately it is about 38 games.' Dear Lord, this is breathtaking. ONE 'big disappointment' but don't worry, keep yer 'air on, Mob, it's about 38 games. So, Mockford, 12 out of 25 games drawn, but, 'ang on and keep yer 'air on, it's about 38 games. Absurd, Mockford, wholly absurd.

Let's reverse things shall we: it's only one game and my oh my what a brave comeback (rather than a pathetic home draw – in Mock-speak, it's a point gained), and so what about all the other games Mocky, all those points dropped, mistakes made, motivation on holiday? Oh there's good old chirpy cheery pie and mash please, good al 'Arry on the box saying we need to turn draws into wins: ring any bells, Mockford, Allaker, Hudson???????

And then the priceless gem that I thought even the Mock-Moyes-man could never have the audacity to dream up. We haven't dropped points against the bottom 3 you silly silly people who don't get it, we have GAINED the points we won from them. That, my friends, is the true face of mediocrity.

I don't usually agree with Pete Barry's sometimes audacious statements in, as it were, opposition: he can be the other side of the coin to Mockford's drivel. But I do agree with him that one of the reasons for us being in the position we are in is the general below par performances of those around us.

Now, I'm not saying for one second that we haven't contributed to our position (not least with those 12 out of 25 draws, eh Mockford), but it has to be said that this is not the highest quality of Premier League seasons: look at the fortunes of English 'top' clubs in the Champs League, for instance (and well worth a bet that not one of them will make it to the next round); look at Citeh this season, well below part but still 2nd; unpredictable Arse, Chelski, Spuds; no-one outside the top 2 seeming to seize the initiative, though the Spuds look worryingly like they might be on a run.

We've done well to be where we are but we have been lucky too with draws pulling up that those around us have not been more consistent. Heresy, I know: I for one can see the Shite finishing above us this season, I really can.

Peter Bell
310 Posted 03/02/2013 at 20:22:07
John Ford, what are you on about? We did not lose our momentum in 2005 because we lost Gravesen, he was replaced by a more cultured player called Arteta. The reason we lost the early season momentume was because we replaced a workhouse called Marcus Bent with a carthorse called James Beattie.
Ian Allaker
311 Posted 03/02/2013 at 20:44:30
Peter, Arteta didn't really settle in and play to his very high standards until the start of the next season and Beattie didn't join until the start of that season as well.

That's if they are talking about the momentum lost during the season Gravesen left rather than momentum lost for the next season.

Graham Mockford
312 Posted 04/02/2013 at 00:02:00
Paul #569

Someone feeling a little tired and emotional then. Why is it absurd to point out it is 38 games that determine the outcome of a season? What would we expect our points tally in a season against the bottom four teams?

Now I know in Paul Ferry land we should be winning every single game... and if we don't, well that just proves Moyes is shit, etc – and anyone who takes anything less is accepting mediocrity etc etc etc. However, in the real world, 16 out of 24 is probably a pretty good tally and puts you in the 60-70 point bracket. My guess this year is we will take 15 with home games to QPR and Reading to come but I could easily be wrong and if I am then our performances against the bottom 4 will have cost us.

The rest of your, how shall I best describe it, bilious rant is pretty pointless stuff. We are only 5th (yes, let's just remind ourselves) because the teams around us are shit. So they're not rolling all the other teams over then.

You then manage to put the tin hat on it by bringing on the star witness for the prosecution, the one and only Pete Barry... 'nuff said.

Ian Allaker
313 Posted 04/02/2013 at 01:40:26
Paul Ferry, I will say one thing for you, you are definitely one of the characters on this site and I do enjoy our “battles” as you like to put it. But from Evertonian to Evertonian can you try to prevent yourself from going off on your tangents and be little more concise and to the point? Sometimes I get lost in your ramblings.

Could you be a little more clear as to the shite I have been talking in the face of a hatful of eveidence? Evidence to show what exactly?

Martin Mason
314 Posted 04/02/2013 at 02:11:17
The Villa result was disappointing for everybody but it doesn't point to a disastrous structural weakness in the side. Heitinga had a stinker and Mirallas and Gibson were being reintegrated so that means disruption. We pulled back a 2-goal deficit and we live to fight another day. We have the real disappointment to come soon because Liverpool will be past us. They are on the verge of becoming a good side.
Paul Ferry
315 Posted 04/02/2013 at 03:08:00
A pathetic mis-rendering of what I said, Mr Mockford. You answered so little in it but wrap it up in your blanket formulations.

I don't know where to start so I will not, except you don't accept that we are 5th partly because of those around us? Go to the back of class.

Where do I say that I expect us to win every game? Don't put words in my mouth. Your glossy interpretations of the Villa result and the 12 out of 25 draws are not shared, I suspect, by the vast majority of Evertonians. And your attitude to our performances against the bottom rungs are, as I said, breathless. But you never responded to any of those points, did you.

Ian: by 'evidence' I meant the conflicting/qualifying stuff that suggests that all is not as well in L4 as the minority like GM with their hopeless honey-tongued optimism/blinkered loyalism suggest.

For example: 12 out of 25 draws, an awful window, a truly appalling result against basement Villa (dressed up as Agincourt by Mockford), truly awful draws against other teams we ought to have put to bed dressed up as, "Hey, we're 5th aren't we?" by Mockford et al, deeply felt concerns about some so-called 'important' players (Howard/Johnny to name two), some heartfelt concerns about starting 11s and tactics (please don't trot out the "What has he got to play with?" card). Dear Lord, we can add the pitch to the list of worries — at least the never-wrong Moysey did.

I could go on.

Patrick Murphy
316 Posted 04/02/2013 at 03:45:33
Thanks Martin, I was just beginning to cheer myself up! I don't know what they are playing like because I cannot watch them, I did see the goals on the News, typical on the night 2 of their number receive some award or other from the FA.

Martin Mason
317 Posted 04/02/2013 at 04:04:10
Patrick, I watched them play Man City last night and they should really have won. Very frustrating but they have had money to spend.
Peter Barry
318 Posted 04/02/2013 at 04:50:52
Two contrasting headlines in the Monday morning sports press:

"Man City RESCUE a draw against Liverpool"

"Everton SCRAPE a draw against bottom-of-the-table Aston Villa"

Which says it all really about how Dire Dour Davey has Everton performing.

Roman Sidey
319 Posted 04/02/2013 at 06:20:28
Sam, no I meant we had a better squad than WBA.
Graham, 11 years now. What's that got to do with it?

Ian, I've constantly praised Moyes for his ability to put a squad of good players together on no budget. That is what he's good at. What I don't think he is good at is motivating a team that clearly needs it. How many games/points have we dropped to terrible teams, teams that have just been promoted, or teams that are about to be relegated? I'll tell you it's a lot. If everyone had to give recognition for everything in every post we'd be here all day.

Graham Mockford
320 Posted 04/02/2013 at 07:28:36
Paul

More classic bluster and hyperbole in your inimitable style. Not for the first time I see you claiming people ' put words in your mouth' then spend your post doing that to me.
'We are 5th partly because of those around us' , We are 5th wholly because of those around us. Our position is relative and if there was no one around us we wouldn't have a position. The points we have after 25 games would nearly always have us in a similar position.
But semantics aside let me try and get to the nub of what is obviously irking you. Saturday was a poor result, you would expect us always to get three points against a team of Villa's defensive abilities. We didn't, because of a poor defensive performance especially by Heitinga. I think he was the wrong choice, I would have gone with Neville at right back. Do I think it was 'Agincourt' ( words in mouth time) absolutely not. We fought back well but quite frankly we shouldn't have put ourselves in the position in the first place.
I guess that's about as far as we will agree ( Neville's inclusion aside) but I don't see it as the end of the world. Football is like that, sometimes results don't go your way but you have to move on, it's we're you finish come May that matters. Saturdays result makes it harder to finish Top 4, we are going to have to go and beat some of the teams around us but unlike most seasons we are still in the position of being able to do so.

Sam Hoare
321 Posted 04/02/2013 at 07:45:08
Martin, total boredom forced me to watch a little of the City RS game last night and I agree, they did look depressingly good. Its hard to argue that they don't look like catching us up this season.

BUT I would say (and no doubt messrs Rathbone etc would disagree) that that is in large part down to the £12m they were able to splash on Sturridge, not to mention the £23m they spent on ratface.

Gavin Ramejkis
322 Posted 04/02/2013 at 07:52:40
To be fair Martin, Heitinga hasn't had just one bad game, he has had a poor season and it would be myopic to say otherwise. A fundamental point dropping flaw has been Moyes insistence on playing him despite of this, so spin it however you want as a structural or poor decision making piece but he has cost us points. Structurally he fielded a flawed team against a quantifiable strength and was proven wrong, he hasn't seen fit to remedy that weakness and even in the game itself didn't until Villa scored a third goal. No spin in the world could deter from what actually happened with and without Heitinga on the pitch.

The worrying thing is that this is classic Moyes modus operandi and he repeats mistakes even after over a decade at the helm of playing off form players when faced with only a younger alternative.

Martin Mason
323 Posted 04/02/2013 at 08:26:59
Gavin, to be fair I've never liked Heitinge and I share your frustration with DMs concept of playing him in CD and then moving Jagielke to full back. As we have started to struggle he seems to be reverting to his dark side.
John Keating
324 Posted 04/02/2013 at 08:11:38
Martin
Heitinga didn't just have a "stinker" against Villa.
I've seen Moyes use this central defence and Jags playing right back against Norwich, West Ham, Newcastle, Chelsea and West Brom.
Heitinga had a "stinker" in every game and the defence never looked comfortable.
We picked up points in all these games - apart from Chelsea - not because of Heitinga playing but in spite of him playing !
His performance against Villa was not a one off.
Playing him does introduce a "structural weakness" in the side.
Any player can have a bad game but Heitinga is having consistent bad games.
To challenge for 4th spot needs everyone to remain on their game and keeping fit. Heitinga is a distraction that needs to be benched immediately.
Peter Barry
325 Posted 04/02/2013 at 10:13:05
'Jose Mourinho to return to Chelsea' — Daily Mail

So not Davey Moyes then — there's a surprise............ NOT!!!!!

Max Murphy
326 Posted 04/02/2013 at 10:56:46
Trevor Lynes. Apologies for my bad language on Saturday. Anger, frustration and sheer disbelief at Moyes' selection of Heitinga caused this aberration.
Kevin Hudson
327 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:07:03
Paul Ferry,

I'm flattered that whilst taking a dubious curtain-call you felt the need to invite me onto the thread...

"Oh dear! A 3-3 draw...I must avoid ToffeeWeb..." ..you insinuate....when in fact I did comment on the game - THREE TIMES, on another thread.

(Note to self: Must work harder on my 'hiding,' skills).

What's the point in debating with you? You're clearly irrational, far too emotional, and you exhibit an extreme level of hatred for Phil Neville..

You never offer Moyes any credit, You can't frame an argument in a civil manner, your posts are utterly charmless, and you freak-out even when we win!

Question: If David Moyes has gotten Everton into fifth place in the Premier League, then just how bad are the other 87 managers below him in English football..?

Harold Matthews
328 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:02:01
Nice to know you survived the night Max. I was a wee bit worried about Trevor when his Heitinga shirt appeared in the window of Oxfam.
Derek Thomas
329 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:30:53
It doesn't matter what the other 87 or the other 91 do or don't do, just what Moyes does or doesn't do.

And, more to the point, what Bill and the board don't (put in).

Kevin Hudson
330 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:42:27
If it "doesn't matter what the other 91 do," then what exactly is the point of a 4-league structure, Derek..?
Ian Allaker
331 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:37:39
Peter Barry 667,

What says more about Davey and the bigger picture about Everton and Liverpool's results against Man City and Villa is the fact that we got more points than Liverpool this season from those fixtures, lets not forget we also got a point off Man City and we beat Villa at their place and didnt lose to them this season like the RS did.

Ian Allaker
332 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:44:48
Paul Ferry, I am sorry if it upsets you that I would rather be an optimist than a pessimist. You are obviously a glass half empty kind of person and I am not. You see all the draws as a negative because we never won, I see it as a positive because we never lost when in the past we might have done. It was a terrible result against Villa but like I said to Barry, you need to look at the bigger picture. We have still took 4 points off Villa this season and scored 6 against them in 2 games which isn’t bad.

The transfer window was very disappointing but we did at least bring in a promising youngster and tried to bring in a quality player which unfortunately didn’t happen because of the medical. It didn’t work out this window but last January it went very well so it hasn’t always been bad. Spurs fans are also not happy because they didn’t bring in a striker, that’s life you don’t always get what you want, tough, theres no point in complaining about it you just get on with it.
Ian Allaker
333 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:01:55
Fair enough Roman, this season we havnt got the results that we probably should have against the weaker teams, but I remember a few season back a newspaper calling us something like “the bottom bashers” because of our brilliant record against the bottom teams but our terrible record against the top teams. In more recent seasons we have been taking some points off the top teams but not getting as many points against the bottom teams.

I think It shows Moyes is managing to motivate his player better against the top teams but some of the will to win might be lost against the lower teams. The players are not machines, they cannot play to 100% every game especially when you have such a small squad, and it doesn’t help when players like Heitinga are giving goals away so easily and players like Jelly and Osman are missing such clear cut chancers.

Moyes cant be blamed for the individual mistakes made by the players. You will say he picks the players which is a fair point, but he hasn’t always had many other options. Of course he has made mistakes but I believe he makes less mistakes than most of the other managers and as I said to Paul, I would rather look at the positives than the negatives and Moyes definitely has far more positives than negatives.

Paul David
334 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:21:26
The frustrating thing is a lot of his negatives seem so obvious to everyone else and easy to fix.
Matt Butlin
335 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:31:20
Peter #667, the press are all Liverpool'ophiles and this kind of reporting is very common. Gerrard get his name screamed out by the commentators if there is the slightest hint that he might shoot.


This also caught my eye: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/8467240/Barnsley-boss-David-Flitcroft-left-numb-by-John-Stones-departure

Hope it's true.

Mike Gwyer
336 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:13:50

It's good reading this thread as it shows the level of support that really want the blues to win.

One sad thing though - why is there a quite constant reference to those fucking twats across the park. Why? If they are playing good who fucking cares. And we all know that if they ain't playng good footy and as they are the devils spawn then they will take more cash from the money printers in hell. Don't ask where the money comes from - it's just there. For me, no matter how much I hated Moyes, Heitinga or the how the blues are playing I could never type "those lot will be above us soon".

And Paul or Pete Ferry you can't be serious about the current standard of EPL football - do you really think that slagging off the entire league will show how shit you think the blues are? Fucking sad!! Bottom line - we played shite, then got a hold of the ball and played a lot better, replaced Heitinga then we scored two deserved goals and drew the game. Yeah Villa!!, Yeah Heitinga!! - but Villa do have the players that are capable of scoring goals. Go and ask the those freaky fuckers across the park how they did against Villa.

Patrick Murphy
337 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:42:49
If ever a Film Title jumped off the page then Mike you've got it 'Those Freaky Fuckers From Across The Park' — Classic! Cheered me up anyway.
Andrew Ellams
338 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:32:39
Steavey @ 527, the FA Cup is for losers? Try looking who has won it recently. Chelsea 4 out of the last 6 for starters.

I don't know how old you are Steavey and I do agree that the FA Cup seems to have slightly less meaning to the a lot of fans who don't remember much before 1992 but if you are going to make these statements have a quick read up on them first. There have been 6 doubles done in the premiership era and 2 teams have won the FA Cup and Champions League in the same season

Eugene Ruane
339 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:15:43
Good Liverpool sides depressed me through much of the 70s and 80s and I'd be very depressed if I thought the present team was becoming a good side or that Rodgers was capable of building one... Well I honestly believe they're not and he isn't.

True they press well and their forwards are quick, dangerous and cause problems (for what they cost and what they're paid, so they should).

Their defence however is, imo, cack. The crimson-gridded Carragher is slower than a tortoise with four wooden legs and the fact he was a shoe-in for yesterday's game suggests they're a long way off getting their back line sorted.

Johnson has ability but thinks he's Dave Thomas (one for the teenagers there) and the rest have 'absolutely nothing special' stamped all over them.

Stevie G lar scored a beaut yesterday and for the next couple of years, he will continue to get the occasional edge-of-the-box rasper like that which will keep his profile high (nb: especially if the opposition defence allow him that much time and space).

But if you believe what your eyes tell you (rather than what Sky would have you believe) you'll see him hit a lot of shit passes and see him do a lot of walking about the middle of the park doing nothing in particular.

Like the rest of us, he's getting slower and older.

I was accused last week (on TW) of being a pessimist and I didn't dispute it.

Moyes, BK, Elstone, Cameron, The Banks, Israel, Africa, Neville – all legitimate reasons for pessimism in my book.

However the future for them doesn't make me feel in the least pessimistic.

In terms of titles etc – a busted flush.

Steavey Buckley
340 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:13:21
The displeasure shown here by committed Everton fans is warranted because of the opportunity Everton were given at the start of the season to secure a CL place. Not normally expected. Since then, points have been squandered due to poor team selection and adequate cover when some money was available for even loan signings or even possibly for a transfer of a centre back, which I thought was going to happen when it was expected that Heitinga was moving back to Holland. But never happened. And the rest is history. And if Everton lose out on a CL place, there are going to be many disgruntled and unhappy fans at the end of the season.
Kevin Tully
341 Posted 04/02/2013 at 13:06:28
What was going on with Sky yesterday?

They had two ex-redshite gobshites, waxing lyrical about how good this new Liverpool side are.

In fact, I thought I had accidentally turned on the LFC TV channel. As if there is not enough of the twats in the papers, on TV and radio.

It's like Sky are willing them back into the top four – maybe they are – 'cos none of the fuckers ever go to a game.

Mike Gwyer
342 Posted 04/02/2013 at 13:07:16

Steavey

And I guess you thought that lump of mash wood, world cup finalist & dutch international would fetch ... what about 5 to 7 million. Then Moyes would go out and buy an equally good CB and a forward and keep BK's banks happy to boot.

Now the mash wood only has 18 months left with us, so we can wipe out 6 months as the next window don't open till July, that leaves 12 months. The guy is on 60K a week so the best we are going to get for him is a freebie because whoever "buys" him pays off his last 12 months with us. Basically, Heitinga is worth jack shit.

Now what......

Brian Waring
343 Posted 04/02/2013 at 13:09:36
Thing is, though, Sam, there was plenty on here rubbing their hands and saying how shite the RedShite were, even with Suarez, laughing and taking the piss out of them, wondering how many points we will finish above them. I know they have gone out and bought Sturridge (some were pointing out how crap he was) but they are still a young team.

My point is, if the Shite did finish above us, those people who were laughing at them will be the first one's coming out with "Well, they could go out and buy Sturridge" etc. Also, I know the got the other lad Coutinho (I think) but he won't make any difference to them this season imo.

Steavey Buckley
344 Posted 04/02/2013 at 12:57:48
"Steavey @ 527, the FA Cup is for losers? Try looking who has won it recently. Chelsea 4 out of the last 6 for starters." Those teams who have won the FA Cup on a regular basis have the FA cup as a 4th priority, behind European Champions League winners, Premier League winners, Champions League qualification, because that's where the prestige and money are. Sadly, teams like Everton when they come towards the end of the season, can only look towards the Europa Cup qualification or maybe a semi-final or final appearance in the FA Cup.
Brian Waring
345 Posted 04/02/2013 at 13:23:51
Kevin, Redknapp is employed by sky as a pundit and Bellamy also played for Man City. Sticks in my throat saying it, but they did play well and probalby deserved to win
The game.
Amit Vithlani
346 Posted 04/02/2013 at 11:45:15
Paul Ferry 662 - hard to argue with anything you say, from where I sit.

We are throwing away opportunities to take a lead in the race for 4th, and this season has been full of "What might have been" i.e. Reading, Norwich, now Villa to name a few.

Spurs having dropped points in mid-week have opened the gap on us and I think it will be tough to close it down, especially given our forthcoming set of fixtures.

The manager has also not , in my opinion, rotated our squad in the right areas. Key players such as Ossie and Peanuts are playing below their early season form (IMHO) and we have players in those positions who can do a job. Against Villa I think we could have won if we had kept the CB's intact, played JH or Oviedo at right back and brought in Vellios upfront, with perhaps Peanuts and Ossie sharing the game.

The manager has shot himself in the foot and 4th will be hard enough to achieve without throwing points away or missing opportunities to apply pressure on the Spuds.

Roman Sidey
347 Posted 04/02/2013 at 15:21:05
Ian, I'm glad we're finding some agreement, but what you said in that post, for me, points out Moyes' biggest failure. He has persisted with the Neviller in CM all year where he has been dreadful and a liability. Then we have a RB crisis, a position that PN can actually still play adequately, and Moyes benches him.

Also, my memory is quite different to yours. The last five years at least, our record against the lower teams has been mixed at best. I think I could count on one hand how many teams we've taken six points off in that time frame. As you say, Moyes seems to be able to motivate the team to play well agains the big boys, but can't seem to get them up for the lower games. It isn't hard to motivate players of any sport or any level to play well against the biggest teams. Making them see the importance of turning up against the shit teams is where you'll find most managers working harder.

I don't know if it's part of Moyes personality showing in the team (for the record, I think in person he's probably a very modest, decent man). What you need against these lower teams like Villa, Reading, QPR, etc is an arrogance of "who do they think they are playing us on our turf" proportions. We've never had that, hence why there's only a couple of games in the last six or seven years where we've scored more than four goals in a game. 1-0s against League One/Two teams in the cups and draws against relegation fodder, in my opinion, represents the real David Moyes model.

His vernacular is starting to make me sick as well. He's such a passive, depressing bloke when he speaks. "We'll keep trying..." Oh, you keep trying, Davie Boy.

"Sometimes we don't need your best. Sometimes we need more than that" springs to mind when he says shit like that.

Brian Harrison
348 Posted 04/02/2013 at 15:51:40
I get the impression from his comments after the match that David Moyes feels as the crowd weren't enamored with his substitutions against Villa and against Bolton.

Again he was right with his substitutions and the crowd were wrong again, as we beat Bolton with the sub scoring the winner and we came from 3-1 down to beat Villa after the substitutions.

I personally wouldn't have started Heitinga against Villa as I thought he wouldn't be able to cope with Benteke's pace which sadly proved to be the case.

But I am sure Moyes could give valid reasons why he chose to play Heitinga in the middle. I am pretty sure had Coleman or Hibbert been fit Heitinga wouldn't have played. Managers sometimes get things wrong, their human, but to boo his decisions considering we have lost about 5 games in 40 odd games, I think we need to cut him some slack for God's sake.

Michael Kenrick
349 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:08:57
Hmmm.... Brian, ".. and we came from 3-1 down to beat Villa after the substitutions."

Your recollections are far more rosey than mine, but that's what being a positive optimist brings you, I guess?

A whole new reality indeed.

Brian Waring
350 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:12:37
And Moyes's thinking Brian against Bolton was ' I know, I'll throw Heitinga on, I can always rely on him when I need a goal'
Andrew Ellams
351 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:12:08
Steavey I am not questioning anybody's priorities but the list of winners over the last 20 years or so shows up your comment about the competition being for losers as absolute rubbish
Steavey Buckley
352 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:19:04
Andrew Ellams: Put it this way, why do clubs in the PL always leave out their best players if the FA Cup is such a sort-after trophy?
Brian Harrison
353 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:20:33
Michael Kenrick – Sorry, yes, I meant to say and came back from 3-1 down to get a draw. As good as Moyes is even he couldn't make it a win.

Brian Waring – I don't believe for one minute he thought Heitinga would score the winner against Bolton but the fact that the substitution worked verifies the changes.

Andrew Ellams
354 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:29:23
Steavey, I don't deny that either. I am just debating how you can call it a competition for losers when the best teams keep winning it.
Steavey Buckley
355 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:35:04
Andrew Ellams: In terms of aspiration, the FA cup appeals to those teams like Everton who can't quite make the CL. Ask yourself, If the last game of the season determind if Everton qualified or not, would you rest players from the FA cup team to keep them fresh?
Tony J Williams
356 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:23:15
Brian, Moyes' thinking is in black and white to read, push Fellaini up front to go and try and win it. A goal comes from another source but the idea was there to "go and win it", now a few years ago, maybe a little as one/two. He would have tried to shut up shop and settle for the point. He didn't, he changed it to push our top scorer forward.

His substitution in the last few games worked, granted we wouldn't have been in that position if that shithouse wouldn't have been on the pitch and if Howard remembered he can come off his line sometimes.

Andrew Ellams
357 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:42:51
You must be a nightmare to live or work with Steavey. You can throw as many facts about dropping players as you like, it still doesn't contradict my point.
Brian Waring
358 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:49:29
I atually agreed with him bringing a sub on to push Fellaini up front Tony.
Roman Sidey
359 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:53:14
Brian, I wouldn't cut anyone on 4m a year slack. They are in a position of employment that comes with scrutiny and criticism. As has been said countless times, the fans that moaned at his sub against Bolton weren't to know that he was pushing a midfielder up top, just that he was pulling a striker off for a defender against a Championship team we weren't beating. Likewise, against Villa, the subs were good subs, but 20-30 minutes too late. Oh, Moyes should be praised that he made changes that won back a point against such a team as Villa.
Steve Brown
360 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:50:15
Heitinga was aggressive and physical last season. This season he has his ass handed to him every time he meet a big forward - Kone, Benteke - or makes an elementary mistake that results in a goal. The reason can only be because he does not care and does not want to play for us anymore. It always amazes me that managers seem to think they know better when the truth is staring them in the face and kicking them in the balls.
Ian Allaker
361 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:41:53
Just on SSN about the corruption in football and match fixing. As if we didnt already know already. They found that CL games have been fixed and even one European game played in England but wont reveal which.

Everton V Villarreal ???

Roman Sidey
362 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:07:04
Definitely that game, Ian.
Steavey Buckley
363 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:27:55
""Heitinga was aggressive and physical last season"" Players are watched thoroughly for weaknesses by opposing clubs. There is no doubt is one of the reasons why Heitinga has done so badly and so has Jelavic this season. No wonder Everton have signed a video analyst.
Ray Roche
364 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:32:42
Everton V Villarreal ? Shouldn't that be Villareal v Everton. We didn't have cause to complain at home, it was the away leg that was controversial.

Given a choice I'd pick the Istanbul CL match, just to shut the RS "Five Times" up, and the Clattenberg Derby, with Gerrard guilty of slippng Clattenberg a swift one.

Ian Allaker
365 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:23:10
Roman, there is no one who screams at Neville more than me when he is playing in CM, he is so infuriating and frustrating to watch, but on the other hand no matter how angry I get I look at the stats and the facts and it has been shown that Everton are a far more successful team with him in the side and most of those games have been in CM, so I am willing to give Moyes the benefit of the doubt and trust his judgement.

I agree with you that I would have liked to have seen Neville at RB and Heitinga on the bench, I think we all could have guessed the outcome of Heitinga v Benteke but we don’t know the full circumstances and what has gone on behind the scenes.

Normally when these strange decisions have been made we find out that a player was injured or some other understandable reason. Someone on here said Neville was injured. For all we know maybe Heitinga has gone into Moyes office and asked for the chance to start the game and give him a chance to prove himself.

Moyes has to consider the value of the player and how long is left on his contract, he needs to try and keep people happy with in the squad, we just don’t know the whole story.

Trevor Skempton
366 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:40:42
Clattenberg, like Poll and Thomas was shockingly biased, but as a result of arrogance and incompetence. But there are other suspicions about the Villareal away game that can't be explained away. That the earlier home game seemed straightforward enough doesn't change that....

Many Evertonians, including me and Ian [788 above] immediately thought 'Villareal' when we heard today's news.

Ray Roche
367 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:52:02
Trevor, I immediately thought Wimbledon....
Ian Edwards
368 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:54:52
Vilarreal game is not the one under suspicion. The report I read stated it was a game played in england in the last 3 or 4 years. Not a game in spain 8 years ago.
Douglas Turner
369 Posted 04/02/2013 at 16:58:32
David Moyes certainly shot a cold plop up our arses when he put Johnny at CB...Again! After the game there was no hiding place for poor old Johnny with his balls up and kecks around his ankles being sprayed all over the internet TV and radio! Don't expect his game to improve any time soon! Watching him play you can see his mind's a million miles away! Like Jelly, his confidence is shot and he's playing crap as a result! In Johnny's case he sees his contract drawing to an end faster than that sale on Tesco's bacon! With no lucrative extension in view, he's feeling a little unwanted and insecure, so it's showing in his game! IMO, Moyes is playing this all wrong! He needs to tie this one up one way or another! Can't believe I'm going to say this but..... Personally, I'd loan him out to improve his game and then take it from there! We all want to lose this imposter and get the old Johnny we all know and love from a year ago! Moyes... Stop your dithering and make it happen! We'd save a shed load of money and regain a Titan! COYBs Keep the faith!!!
Roman Sidey
370 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:43:39
In agreeance there, Ian.

Ray, I reckon that night in Istanbul just didn't get enough attention to NOT be rigged. One of the three goals the Shite scored in that second half was legit. A dive for a penalty, and a linesman putting his flag up for offside in the build up to another which the ref ignored. Add to the Dudek came off his line in nearly every penalty.

Ian Edwards
371 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:57:09
And holtby is not and never has been an Everton fan. I heard an interview with him last year. His father is an everton fan. Holtby said in the interview that he himself was an Arsenal fan. If its being put about hes an everton fan then that will probably be to divert pressure with him now signing for spurs.
Robin Cannon
372 Posted 04/02/2013 at 17:53:16
Can we stop panicking about Liverpool "looking like a good side?". So far in 2013 they've gained one less point than us in five games, and lost in the FA Cup to a team two divisions below them that had picked up 1 point from a possible 24 in their eight League 1 games prior to that match.
Rory Slingo
374 Posted 04/02/2013 at 18:46:54
#797 "I agree with you that I would have liked to have seen Neville at RB and Heitinga on the bench, I think we all could have guessed the outcome of Heitinga v Benteke but we don’t know the full circumstances and what has gone on behind the scenes."

Moyes explains why on soccernet, "It was the same way we set up against West Brom - it's what we have available because our right backs our injured," Moyes said. "We have limited alternatives.

"Phil Neville's not able to play three games in a week because of his knee. I knew when he played on Wednesday we'd struggle to get another game from him here, and I was concerned with Gabriel Agbonlahor's pace."

#800 "Vilarreal game is not the one under suspicion. The report I read stated it was a game played in england in the last 3 or 4 years. Not a game in spain 8 years ago."

Football corruption hasn't just happened between 2008 and 2011. The Villareal game may not have come up in this investigation but this is just the tip of the iceberg. It will lead to many, many more cases the deeper they dig.

Peter Bell
375 Posted 04/02/2013 at 23:33:56
When you have two centre halves playing against one forward, then one goes man to man, the other sweeps, covers and mops up. Who makes the decision that Heitinga is the marker. The manager of course. Distin went man to man recently in the Chelsea game, hence Torres never got a kick and Distin gets man of the match, why cant our manager see that Sheitinga couldnt mark a scratchcard.
Peter Bell
376 Posted 04/02/2013 at 23:33:56
Dup
Paul Ferry
377 Posted 05/02/2013 at 00:42:48
Robin, the Shite have played Arsenal and Man City off the park in their own gaffs in their last two games.

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