Moyes hails Bundesliga model

, 1 May, 93comments  |  Jump to most recent
'Germans have got their league right'

David Moyes has again lauded the Bundesliga, saying that the German league is benefiting from ownership rules, ticket prices and a youth development practices that differ significantly from the inequitable English Premier League model.

The Blues' boss has made no secret of his admiration for German domestic football and though he admits it is not his "main ambition", he has intimated that he would like to manage there one day. Indeed, he has been linked strongly with the forthcoming vacancy at Schalke but, rumour has it that that looks likely to be filled by Stefan Effenberg at the end of the season.

In particular, the Bundlesiga's 50+1 rule that prevents any sole entity from owning more than 49% of a given club has fostered greater competition in Germany than in England where the concentration of wealth among four or five clubs has created a glass ceiling for clubs below trying to gain access to the lucrative Champions League.

"I think that [50+1 rule] is encouraging," Moyes says. "There have been a few different winners of the Bundesliga over recent years. I know this year Bayern have scaled it but last year Dortmund won it and it wasn't long ago Schalke won it and Bayer Leverkusen came close. Their youth teams and the way they develop players has been good … the Germans have been really good in the way they've got their league right."

Moyes also pointed to the low ticket prices and top-class facilities as other hugely attractive aspects to the Bundesliga.

"When I've been to see games in Germany I've been amazed by the atmosphere. People talk about the atmosphere in the Premier League but over there it's incredible. The stadiums are full, behind the scenes it works fantastically. The ticket prices aren't outrageous and nearly all the games are completely sold out. The big thing is that they're nearly all in terrific stadiums, too.

"Nearly every club has a modern, up-to-date stadium, whether it's a bowl or a square-sided one. They've really progressed since the World Cup in 2006. I think they're all important factors in modern life. If you want to go to the game now, you don't want to pay too much but you also want a good seat with an unrestricted view where you can see the pitch. Generally I think that's what they do over there."

Quotes or other material sourced from The Guardian



Reader Comments (93)

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Paul Ferry
2 Posted 01/05/2013 at 01:27:15
Kommen Sie und mich.
Kommen Sie und mich.
Patrick Murphy
3 Posted 01/05/2013 at 01:39:53
I agree with DM that the German model is a better deal for the fans and let's be honest German footballers have generally been better technical players than most of our homegrown boys. Germany also has the added bonus of being nearer the centre of Europe with connections to the east and west and so it can more easily import players of good technical ability.

I wonder if DM is learning to speak German as he does seem to be angling for something other than to praise the Bundesliga as it's not the first time he has done this.

Perhaps he could persuade Bill Kenwright that if we had a plan to work to, we as a club could buck the trend in this country and become more like a German club.


Jamie Crowley
4 Posted 01/05/2013 at 02:08:23
Really??

What German is this guy gonna blow to get his gig in the Bundesliga?

Paul Andrews
5 Posted 01/05/2013 at 06:02:50
"It's not my main ambition."

What is your main ambition?

Jamie Clancy
6 Posted 01/05/2013 at 07:42:07
"It wasn't long ago Schalke won it (the Bundesliga)".

Well, if 55 years have passed (Schalke last won league in 1958) since you last won the league and that wasn't long ago, I'd hate to think what he thinks is a long time ago with regards to winning the league...

John Keating
7 Posted 01/05/2013 at 08:04:22
Youth development??

Well he's gonna have problems when he gets over there!

Matt Traynor
8 Posted 01/05/2013 at 08:12:04
Patrick #281, Everton's ownership currently fits within the "50+1" rule, but you can bet your bottom dollar Kim Jong Bill would vote against that. He's been increasing his stake steadily, whilst he waits for the big pay off that sadly is as far off now as it has ever been. Besides, I'm sure there are at least 2 clubs in the Bundesliga that have individuals with a majority stake.

A few years back I was at a conference in Asia to do with commercial opportunities in sports, sat next to a senior exec from the German FA, so naturally took the opportunity to sink a few dunkels with him and interrogate him. Their clubs had at that time a lot bigger sponsorship deals with (mainly) German MNCs. Their broadcast deal was nowhere near where ours was (this was the previous TV deal to the one we have now, which is about to end). He prophetically stated he thought the future expansion of the EPL broadcasting deal would lead to English clubs getting stellar sponsorship deals (as seen now with almost all clubs except us of course), and that Germany would love to follow the UK model, but he felt that it was unbreakable as the top English clubs would always go for the top global playing talent, to keep the value of the TV deals high.

Which when you think about it makes for a perverse logic. Keep signing the top talent (which costs top $) and the TV networks will pay loads for it. And back then (2007-08) people were then predicting the demise of the value of the TV deal...

Eugene Ruane
10 Posted 01/05/2013 at 09:14:44
Think he's spot on and particularly regarding ticket prices.

The British model (ie: our clubs) is beyond greedy and I believe, in time, will be shown to have been near-sighted in the extreme.

John Wingrove
11 Posted 01/05/2013 at 09:46:19
Isn't it the case that Everton already conforms to the German model? No sole entity owns more than 49% of our club, which therefore must mean that most other Premier League Clubs should aspire to be run like ours!!!

Light the Blue Touch Paper and retire!

Andrew Ellams
12 Posted 01/05/2013 at 09:58:27
Surely English football has gone too far the other way now to adopt this methodolgy. Might be a bit tough to tell some of those megolomaniac owners that they have to give back some of their toys and the players that they are going to have to take pay cuts because the ticket revenue is going to drop.

Ciaran Duff
13 Posted 01/05/2013 at 09:37:19
John (300) - I think you are confused about what Youth Development is. Everton U21s are currently top of their Qualification group and are unbeaten since last year etc. We are well represented in all England under age teams and Finch Farm is apparently one of the best training facilities around.

The main issue for Youth Devmt in England is the old-fashioned methods which have been used in the past – reliance on strong/fast/big players as opposed to technically gifted; an over-emphasis on winning at a young age (discourages players from taking chances and developing skills); use of basic tactics (eg, hoofball) instead of more sophisticated and varied tactics.

It seems that the FA is finally starting to address these issues. Let's hope it trickles down to the clubs.

Carl Sanderson
14 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:10:50
Eugene:

I agree with that; it's very short-sighted. At certain times of the year I am blinded by sunlight reflected by all the bald heads in front of me in the Paddock. Everton is, on the whole, quite good at creating pricing structures that attract younger fans. But the bigger picture appears to be quite depressing, really.

Tim Jones
15 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:23:49
Ciaran Duff # 326 says "John (300) – I think you are confused about what Youth Development is."

I think its you who is confused Ciaran the main purpose of Youth Development is to provide a stream of quality players to the club's first team and thus save the club millions in transfer fees. This is something else in which Moyes has been a total failure and he's had 11 YEARS and 'LOADSA MONEY' to get it right too.

Kevin Tully
16 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:26:22
I don't think Moyes would fit in over there at all.

Take a look at these German teams in the CL – I don't think I witnessed one hoof from Bayern or Dortmund.

Jagielka twatting it to Anichebe, who then falls over trying to bring the missile under control would not go down too well methinks.

Ernie Baywood
17 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:29:34
Tim, as I understand it, the differences in the German model are to benefit the German national team. So not the clubs.

They have to have academies to hold a licence, and they have to take a certain number of German players.

Tell me, Tim, what exactly is Moyes doing wrong in that regard?

Sam Hoare
18 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:35:34
Kevin, the difference is that Bayern have slightly better players than us therefore they don't need to hoof. Managers can only manage the players at their disposal. If you're managing Barca or Bayern you'll probably give them different instructions than if you're managing Scunthorpe.

Kevin Tully
19 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:50:18
So when our England centre-half (£50k a week) twats it to our £25m rated playmaker (£75k a week), it's because they aren't good enough to pass it?

OK – Now I know.

Oh, and before anyone says we are not a long-ball side, this season we are third behind Reading & Newcastle for most long balls played in games.

Nick Entwistle
20 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:01:21
Its just like watching Bra... Wimbledon, isn't it Kevin.
Geoff Edwards
21 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:02:17
Sam, even the bottom clubs in the Bundesliga don't play hoofball.

I am not sure Moyes would last long in the Bundesliga: in a league with teams full of youth products playing cavalier attacking football, a conservative defence-minded coach who doesn't trust youngsters will probably not go down too well.

Ernie Baywood
22 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:01:51
And we are not a long ball side.

Don't care what the stats say. I watch us, and we're not a long ball side. Personally, I think we mix up our approach play nicely. Mind you, when we played dull, unadventurous, percentage tippy tappy shite people on here were still complaining we played hoofball.

Sam Hoare
23 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:00:25
Kevin, since when was Fellaini a playmaker?! When he's up top its because he's a target man. But don't let that get in the way of a good piece of sarcasm.

Fact is that Jags and Distin are not ball playing centre backs and so when put under pressure they are under instruction to clear their lines. Perhaps you remember Distin trying to clever in the FA Cup Semi?! How that means that Moyes would tell Bayern to hoof it all the time, God knows?

Eugene Ruane
24 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:54:55
Sam (335), not sure that's always the case. Jack Charlton, when manager of Ireland, had Liam Brady but wouldn't play him because he wouldn't follow his instructions. Instructions which were basically 'Hoo yee, gerrit up the park man though but!'

Fact is some managers just feel safer giving it the boot no matter who they have in their side.

Moyes actually HAS given 'football' a go in fits and starts over the last year or so, but he has never seemed 100% committed to it. Strange as it has actually, in terms of results, been no less successful than hoof-ball and my guess, more so.

Kevin Tully
25 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:12:17
There you go chaps, but it's probably a lie someone has just made up on the P.L. stat website ;

Everton’s Jagielka has attempted more long balls than any defender in the Premier League, but Toffees goalkeeper Tim Howard has actually gone long less (5.2 times per game) than Liverpool’s Pepe Reina (5.7 times per game). However, Jagielka’s stat and that of Marouane Fellaini, who has contested the 13th highest amount of aerial duels of any forward, proves that Everton are certainly not averse to using long balls.

Kevin Tully
26 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:13:49
More long balls THAN ANY DEFENDER IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE.

In case you missed it the first time.

Ernie Baywood
27 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:42:15
"it's probably a lie someone has just made up"

Of course not. It was from November 2012 after Gerrard's comments about the first derby. Interestingly, the article's conclusion was that are are not a long ball side. Strange you didn't mention that?

Steve Pugh
28 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:54:27
Anyone who thinks that there were no hoofs in the game last night must have had their eyes closed. I suppose there was no diving, faking injuries or hassling of the ref. And I bet none of the strikers ran offside either.
Harold Matthews
29 Posted 01/05/2013 at 10:04:34
Ciaran,. Like John K I am also confused with the DM Youth Developement issue. It's obviously a big thing with him judging by his much related dreams of travelling the world to study the various ways kids are brought through in other countries.Very commendable stuff and, as you pointed out, good things appear to be happening at Finch Farm. Unfortunately, and this is where the confusion arises. He and his coaching staff seem to be completely inept when it comes to bridging the gap between the under 21's and the main squad.

Our leading coach,Alan Stubbs, stated on the radio last week," There is no substitute for experience.".He was,of course, echoing the thoughts of his boss. The Premiership has risen to such a high standard that teams fighting for a European spot cannot afford to take a chance on youth experimentation. Barkley,like Rooney and Rodwell, has the necessary physique and technical ability but struggles with the speed of thought and movement at the top level. It can't be easy but the lad is exceptional and will probably make the grade.

This transition from under 21's to the 1st team is a massive problem and maybe this is why DM is anxious to learn how it is achieved elsewhere. Till he does then I'm afraid these boys who excite you at Finch Farm will never play for Everton in The Premiership.

Carl Sanderson
30 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:01:23
Mixin it up is the way forward, in my opinion. The goal we scored against Fulham was beautiful football. The destruction of the RS during the first half of the Goodison derby just proves that we can play brilliantly. Likewise Newcastle at home, Fulham away, Villa away, Swansea away, etc. There's nothing wrong with playing long balls, though. I seem to remember we played a lot of long passes (sic) when we had Lineker up front.
Eric Myles
31 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:07:14
Tim #331, it's more a case of the players have been a failure.
Kevin Tully
32 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:09:20
Ernie, when we played Arsenal away, I actually counted the number of times we played an aimless ball from the back,to a lone striker, and needlessly turned over possession. This wasn't clearing the lines, under pressure hoofball, this was a tactic employed throughout the game.

Guess the number for your prize?

Gavin Ramejkis
33 Posted 01/05/2013 at 11:55:46
Earnie it's not just German kids in the academies, look at the German national teams front line for years, made up of Poles, admittedly naturalised because of the facilities across the border. Despite the blinkered view of it as a xenophobic nation it has many multi national heritage players too, Ozil is half Turkish. The general way the German youth development game has been rebuilt since the dark days of the 5-1 defeat shows it can be done, ticket prices and getting a beer back to your seat and terraces are all still great reasons to add watching a Bundesliga game to your bucket list.
John Keating
34 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:19:55
Ciaran
I would have thought the whole purpose of youth development is to develop youths who would get into our first team.
Now our U21's or whoever may well be top of the league or unbeaten or whatever but if hardly any youths get into our first team then I would suggest either our Youth Development is failing or we are ignoring possible good youngsters and not giving them the chance to step up!
I have long advocated integrating one or two youngsters into the team when possible.
Give them a good run and lets see where it takes us.
It's no good Moyes saying the Bundesliga system is the best unless he practices what he preaches.
Ernie Baywood
35 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:27:44
Kevin, first an out of date and selectively quoted article, and now you want me to base our style of play on a match away at Arsenal with 2 key midfielders missing.

We play some long balls. I get it. I don't deny it. But you're trying to make it into something it isn't. We mix up our play between short and long, we change our tempo.

Ernie Baywood
37 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:35:01
Gavin #370 - I agree. My comment about Germans in the academies was down to the league prescribing that they must take a certain number of locals. They force them to deepen the pool that the national team can draw from in the future. Whether they have heritage from elsewhere is by the by - and I certainly don't see Germany as xenophobic. It strikes me as a modern, multicultural nation.

The players being produced in Germany right now are widely being credited to their compulsory academies. Does anyone know how many 1st and 2nd flight English clubs don't have what you might call an academy?

Jim Knightley
38 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:31:58
Kevin... we have a 78.9% pass success accuracy... http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3389/Stages/6531/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013

And 52.6% average possession....those stats are not the stats of a long ball team. Funnily enough, a stat about Jagielka doesn't make us a long ball team...

And Everton's youth system doesnt have a specific problem...the whole Premier League does. Most of the youngsters which break through these days have been brought from lower division teams. I'd actually say the money we've made from the likes of Rodwell and Vaughan, and the appearance of Barkley, Anichebe etc in the first team, makes us one of the better examples in this league. It's a shockingly bad situation...and our national situation would be so much improved if we had benefited from significant levels of FA funding into youth football, as happened in Germany at the beginning of the last decade.

Kev Johnson
39 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:38:23
In an separate"Manager-moves-countries?" story, Mourinho has come out and said that he wants to go "where he is loved" - in other words, the Premiership. So, Moyes skips off to Nuremberg - who were impressed by him during our Europa Cup run a few years back - and Mourinho comes to Goodison, thereby attracting massive investment and propelling us to the league title and, subsequently, sustained European success. Sorted.
Kevin Tully
40 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:46:23
Hi Jim, how you fixed for the 16th?
Jim Knightley
41 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:47:20
Kevin, I'm out of the country, like most months. But have fun. But great to see your refusal to respond to the stat.

Theoretical question on Mourinho....imo, he is definitely in the top 5 managers in the world...and maybe the best. With Everton's current budget and team, do we think he could get us top four football?

Derek Wadeson
43 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:50:50
Interesting show on TalkSport last night for the MOB. On his show Mark Saggers suggested and co-host Ray Houghton agreed that David Moyes would be the perfect fit to replace Wegner or Manchini at Arsenal or City should either leave or be pushed.

Both stated that Moyes had done all that he could at Everton and a fresh start at a new club with money to spend would bring the only thing he lacks, trophies.

It seems that Mr Moyes is not as bad as the MOB make out.

Patrick Murphy
45 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:59:39
Yet another ex-red in the media, spouting the same old same old, usual the manager is so much better than the club he manages, it seems it works perfectly into their world view, Everton are crap and anyone with ambition or talent shouldn't be associated with the club.

However I do think if DM was to leave for a 'bigger' club then Arsenal would suit him the best in comparison to the other jobs.

Colin Wainwright
46 Posted 01/05/2013 at 12:59:03
I don't think Moyes is as bad as many, including myself at certain times (Wigan cup game, Semi-Final last season), make out, Derek.

But using Saggers and Houghton to back up your assertion does it no favours.

Kevin Tully
47 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:01:18
You see Jim, when you are watching your shitty stream somewhere, I am watching from 20 yards away while Jagielka wellies it up the field at every possible opportunity.

Your stats mean nothing - live football is where it's at, you can hear the ball screaming!

Ross Edwards
48 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:06:01
Sucking up to the krauts so he can get his job with Schalke is he?

As for dragging up a point made on Talksport, it is from a biased Kopite in Houghton whose opinions matter little at all. It's the same with all of them on that station. Especially Durham.

Jim Knightley
49 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:08:47
Haha Kevin...yes stats are less relevant than your subjective judgement.

And I've seen plenty of Everton games...but I think it's great that you insult a fellow Everton fan for not having the capacity to watch Everton regularly.

You are really a swell guy. Or a foolish gobshite, who gives Everton fans a bad name. You pick your interpretation.

Andrew Ellams
51 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:22:14
Ross, the job at Schalke has gone mate.
Ross Edwards
54 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:29:31
Andrew
Who got it?
Kev Johnson
55 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:25:02
As I said at 379, Moyes will go to Nuremberg. Don't ignore me. If you ignore me, I will have to go on a killing spree. Then you'll be sorry.

Alternatively, he might be snapped up by bottom-of-the-league team Greuther Furth. Now I flatter myself that I'm fairly knowledgeable about football, but I have never heard of Greuther Furth! Are they a made up team, like Crystal Palace?

Ross Edwards
57 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:32:47
"Moyes will go to Nuremberg"

What, for crimes against humanity?

Jim Knightley
59 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:33:23
Kevin... 1) do you think statistics lie?
2) Are you not aware that other people who watch the matches, see a different interpretation?

Surely such a rigid protectionism of your subjectivity belongs on a playground, instead of informed debates between fellow Everton fans? whose presence on this forum necessitates a level of investment in terms of time and passion into the club, which in part gives a validity to each opinion?

Andrew Ellams
60 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:40:03
Ross, Stefan Effenberg (great name)
Ernie Baywood
61 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:33:49
I've given you my opinion Kevin. I believe we mix it up well. For what it's worth I emigrated and now can't get to Goodison. The upside to that is that I get every game live on a big screen.

The stats can lie, I agree with that. You have us a stat from November that demonstrated that Everton were not averse to playing long balls, that Fellaini was the most targeted player in the air, and that Jags played the most long balls in the league. Yet that period to mid November 2012 yielded some of the best football I've seen an Everton side produce.

There's no shame in us not playing tippy tappy. We played tippy tappy for the first 6 months of last season. And we were unbelievably dull and uninventive. We couldn't score and were absolute shit to watch. For a time I thought that style would take us down, so bad was it.

We've a nice mix right now. Similar sort of levels to Man Utd, albeit with inferior players in a few positions and no squad to call on.

For all the criticisms I could level against Moyes, his general style of football this year wouldn't be one of them.

Andrew Ellams
62 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:40:58
Kev, they play in the same league as Kickers Offenbach and Wormatia Worms. They do exist, google them
Jim Knightley
64 Posted 01/05/2013 at 13:44:48
Well Kevin I'll stop now. It will be evident to anyone on here, that you've stooped to the level of childish insults, and the 'I've seen it with my eyes so it must be true' notions, which typify the worse kinds of posts on here. Luckily, as in most threads you are involved in, the intellectual deconstructions of Everton's style can continue in spite of you.

And Ernie, I'm in agreement with you. We've played some great football this season... and I think a more diverse style, is a more beneficial one. Bayern have been shining examples of a fantastic footballing side... who still have the capacity to play direct, and play winning football. Their ability to change it up, ultimately, in my eyes, now makes them the best footballing side in the world, without the weakness which can be attributed to Barca (No plan B etc).

If we approach next season, like we approached this, and with a bit more investment in attacking players, I think we will have a very very good season.

Phil Walling
66 Posted 01/05/2013 at 14:18:10
Under Moyes, the main purpose of our academy seems to be limited to providing a never ending supply of young players to the likes of Brentford and Doncaster!

And, by the way, Davey, I don`t think the stringent German model allows for too many managers to earn upwards of £4M for finishing seventhish!

Harold Matthews
67 Posted 01/05/2013 at 14:13:02
He would have a real cushy time in Germany. 34 league games, a cup with no 2nd leg fixtures, no league cup and the longesr winter break in Europe. My God, no wonder they do well in all the big competitions. They're much fresher than anyone else.
Michael Kenrick
68 Posted 01/05/2013 at 14:58:27
It's the ineffectiveness of the long ball which I suspect some of us find extremely frustrating to watch. Football should be about keeping possession of the ball, so to hoof it forward with at best only a 50-50 chance of doing that (the real stat must be more like 20-80). The only reason for doing it is that the shorter pass is not on — too risky. And you can argue that is exactly how and why we lost at Sunderland. But I don't think that makes it right.

It's a strategy that I can see would be favoured by a fundamentally defensive manager, mainly for risk reduction, but also he could reason that, "Yea, so the other side might get possession.... but they have to then work the ball at us and we have the superior defensive skills and plenty of time to maintain our shape before the ball finds its way back into our area."

That's what it looks like to me when I watch us play. It does not look like good football.

Ross Edwards
69 Posted 01/05/2013 at 15:18:09
Andrew
Thanks for telling me. That's another team off Davey's list!
Ernie Baywood
70 Posted 01/05/2013 at 15:19:28
I think the long ball term is open to interpretation. Just smacking it at Vic - yes that's long ball football. That's what we did far too much away to Arsenal but I could understand the tactic - Moyes feared giving the ball away in midfield due to Arsenal's pace on the counter (so exactly as you say, Michael). We had to pick our moments to play, and we did play some football. Generally though it was due to winning the ball high up the field.

Generally, I don't believe we've played 'long ball football'. We've played direct to a deep lying forward (usually Fellaini) but rather than hoping for flicks or knock downs we've played to his feet or chest and got players around him to support the attack. We've balanced that tactic by playing short stuff - if you have only one tactic it's easily found out.

The fact that we have 53-54% possession on average and are in the top 6 for possession tells you we don't just pump it long to 20/80 chances.

Against Wigan we played short and were useless. They completely shut us down, we played shit, and ultimately resorted to hoofing it. Against Sunderland we were useless despite a massive amount of possession and resorted to hoofing it.

I would say the games where we played long were as a result of us having stinkers, rather us having stinkers due to suddenly deciding to play long ball.

Ross Edwards
71 Posted 01/05/2013 at 15:47:20
So Andrew, Schalke are getting a man who has never managed before?
If I was them I'd be better off with DM, and that's saying something!
Andrew Ellams
72 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:14:53
From what I can see, Ross, he has been out of football full stop since 2004.
Ross Edwards
73 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:20:36
Andrew

Good luck to him.

It looks increasingly likely that the only dotted line he'll be signing is BK's new improved contract in June.

Richard Dodd
74 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:09:00
Good analysis, Michael. One of my kid`s coaches referred to it as Hah Hah football – Hoof and Hope, Hoof and Hope – although that was in the earlier days of Moyes. I do think the quality of football has improved in recent seasons, probably because we've had better players.

Having a really big man on his own upfront (ie, Dunc/Victor) does tempt goalies to aim for them and Howard certainly needs no urging to do just that!

Is that how they play in the Bundesliga?

Ross Edwards
75 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:22:59
Sorry, in my last post I meant to say It looks increasingly likely the only dotted line Moyes will be signing on is BK's new improved contract in June.

It'll be alright on the night!

Richard Dodd
76 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:22:57
I meant to say one of my KID Brother`s coaches. My nipper's only 4!

[Hope the wife`s didn't read it!]

Eric Myles
77 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:31:23
Ross, can you give us details of this new improved contract for Moyes that you are privy to?
Ross Edwards
78 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:44:49
Take it from BK's perspective Eric. He is eager for the guy to stay so of course he ill offer him more money to stop him from being lured elsewhere.

I know BK doesn't have common sense but it seems logical to offer him a better contract to force him to stay.

Robert Collins
79 Posted 01/05/2013 at 17:06:03
Ross Edwards @ 410

"Moyes will go to Nuremberg"
What, for crimes against humanity?

I'd like to see him and his best mate pantomime dame Billy in the dock for crimes against both EFC and good attacking football and also while we're there we can try Moyes for cowardice against any club that has more money than us (in particular there's a team that plays all in red that comes to mind).

Patrick Murphy
80 Posted 01/05/2013 at 16:59:10
Exlusive - Bill Kenwright has realised that when he was a young boy, he had an Uncle who was serving in the British Army and in the early 50's took him to a SC Frieburg game where he was held aloft by the locals following a dramatic last minute winner in a crucial game.

Despite Frieburg not having a boy's pen it has struck Bill how much he loves the area and the people. He thinks that SC are a real community club and expects the 24,000 solar powered stadium to outlive its purpose and is working 24/7 to find investors to bank-roll the signing of new players ,He also believes that a move to a shiny new 28,000 stadium, much of which depends on LIDL providing the majority of the funding is a far better option than redeveloping the current stadium.

Due to his commitments at his current club he may have to wait a little longer to achieve his boyhood dream but if and when he can disentangle himself from the financial web that he inherited at Goodison he has made it clear that he will buy SC and that David Moyes is the only manager that he would be comfortable working with.

A source close to BK has said that Bill considers his links with SC as a marriage whereas Everton although he loves the club is only an affair.

.....it was all a dream.

Wayne Smyth
81 Posted 01/05/2013 at 17:25:13
I wonder how the "Messer zu einer Schießerei" speeches will go down?

Ciaran(326) John is perfectly correct. Our youth development policy is FA to do with the FA and everything to do with Moyes....or was it an edict from Lancaster Gate telling Moyes not to play his younger players after the Leeds game??

The purpose of our youth team is not to win a league or trophy, but to provide players for the first team or for sale.

If Moyes is in such awe at the way the germans do it then he should be bloody well doing it too. He can rightly complain about the stadium issues, but he's had 11 years to remodel our youth setup and start to develop the youngsters we have, but has decided to shut most of them out of the side, instead.

Henry Jones
82 Posted 01/05/2013 at 20:01:24
Moyes annoys me with comments such as these. Our first team youth policy is horrendous. An ageing squad. No faith in youth. I respect Moyes but I wish he'd either change our youth set up or shut up and play the youngsters as and when necessary. Rant over.
Robin Cannon
83 Posted 01/05/2013 at 20:07:07
Ernie(448)

"I would say the games where we played long were as a result of us having stinkers, rather us having stinkers due to suddenly deciding to play long ball."

This is a great quote. When we're playing badly the long ball is more obvious, because other things aren't working and we revert to it more often.

We are absolutely not a "hoofball" team, and I pretty much started switching off as soon as someone makes the argument that we are, because it's pretty much a standard accusation for someone who doesn't want to make a more considered anti-Moyes argument.

Ross Edwards
84 Posted 01/05/2013 at 20:27:37
Robin Cannon

"When we're playing badly, the long ball is more obvious, because other things aren't working and we revert to it more often."

What you really mean is that we run out of ideas and play aimless hoofball.

Paul Andrews
85 Posted 01/05/2013 at 20:31:07
Jim Knightly 385,

yes I do think Jose would have finished in the top 4 if he managed Everton this season,without a doubt in my opinion.

Harold Matthews
86 Posted 01/05/2013 at 20:19:23
Toffee Webbers seem to suggest that BK is the brains and power behind everything. This I find hard to believe. He may have the best seat but money rules and, by Premiership standards, he is not exactly loaded.

So please can we knock off all this crap about BK drawing up contracts, BK not spending this and not buying that. It's stupid, it's childish and it's boring.

Patrick Murphy
87 Posted 01/05/2013 at 21:07:22
Harold on some points I agree with you, but he is the guy whose named as Chairman, so where does the buck stop? - No pun intended.
Barry Rathbone
88 Posted 01/05/2013 at 21:17:58
Is there anywhere he DOESN'T want to manage?

Ross Edwards
89 Posted 01/05/2013 at 21:35:39
Barry,

Moyes's next quip "I think Syria is an amazing country. In my view it is completely safe, with a democratic system of Government, but I won't make a summer move yet."

Then, he'll follow that with "The North Korean Army is outstanding, it brings fresh blood in every 10 years and boasts about carrying out threats which it hasn't the equipment or leadership to carry out. I would love to be the next dear leader of North Korea but I'm not considering a summer move yet"

He should bring out a book, "David Moyes' Amazing Places" out in all good bookstores and found on BK's bookshelves.

Nick Armitage
90 Posted 01/05/2013 at 23:31:30
Germany has better football, a better democracy, better social justice, better job prospects, better healthcare, better pensions, better industry, a more stable financial base and a better future for children.

If I was Moyes I would learn German.

Peter Laing
91 Posted 01/05/2013 at 23:38:15
Just remind me Nick, who won the war, I know you wouldnt think so, Germany has concentrated on its social model, industry and enterprise, the UK still has dreams of the empire and its egotism as a 'super-power'. The Football's also good these days and appears in rude health !
Carl Sanderson
92 Posted 01/05/2013 at 23:52:45
Ross 410:

That is a fucking awful thing to say, shame on you.

Ross 522:

You have far too much time on your hands.

Eric Myles
93 Posted 02/05/2013 at 01:46:55
Ross #468, I wonder why Moyes hasn't already signed this improved new contract BK has offered then?
Brent Stephens
94 Posted 02/05/2013 at 08:49:14
Interesting article in the Guardian today, as a counter to the oft-stated praise for the way Bundesliga football is set up (nurturing talent, barring foreign investment, bolstering competitiveness, low ticket prices etc):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/01/german-fairytale-champions-league-spiel

It's predicting the rapid demise of Dortmund, and, more generally, the situation in which one club (Bayern) is pretty much guaranteed to win the league due to a lack of competitiveness.

Harold Matthews
95 Posted 02/05/2013 at 10:04:36
Great pun Patrick. Clever stuff.

Decided to give up on my BK rant. According to Ross, our chairman is now an avid reader and collector of DM's published Travel Guides.

Ross Edwards
97 Posted 02/05/2013 at 13:00:46
Carl
Shame on me for what? I did not compare Moyes to a Nazi if that is what you are thinking.
Eric Myles
98 Posted 03/05/2013 at 17:30:28
Funny how the TWebbers that post that Moyes is holding out for a new improved contract for himself can't answer

1 Why he hasn't already signed it?

2. Why BK hasn't already offered it?

3. Why, if reports are true and he's holding out for assurances that incoming monies will be used to improve the team, that that is a bad thing?

Nick Entwistle
99 Posted 03/05/2013 at 17:55:24
4, if a new manager will make us better, why does BK use Moyes as a shield from the fans?
Nick Entwistle
100 Posted 03/05/2013 at 17:59:16
5, and would agree to bankrupt the club as Moyes is holding the club to ransom?
Dave Lynch
101 Posted 03/05/2013 at 18:11:32
Nick@917.

Because a new manager would not show the blind loyalty under the constraints Moyes has for the sake of a big wedge.

He may well spill the beans on the state of the club.

Barry Rathbone
102 Posted 03/05/2013 at 18:04:08
Eric,

1. He's after more wages

2. Hasn't Bill said he wants him to stay?

3. Delusion from those unhappy with point "1."

4. With expectations raised so might the rabble!

5. Because that's what's been going on since Kirkby.

NEXT!

Wayne Smyth
103 Posted 03/05/2013 at 18:14:09
Eric, you seem to suggest that Moyes asking for assurances over money going to his player purchases can only be a good thing.

The clubs cash does not only go to fund Moyes transfers. The club has spent more than it has earned for a long, long time. We've taken out loans to cover the shortfall and aside from those interest payments there is the day to day running costs of a club, such as ground maintenance, etc.

So far as I'm aware BK and his management team have made numerous bad business decisions which have failed to increase revenue compared with our peers, however they are not taking cash out of the club in any direct sense, and Moyes still gets to use about 75% of total turnover on the playing staff in wages or transfers.

Given that loans have been used (in part) to purchase players, its only reasonable that (part of)those loans get repaid when players are sold. So while it might seem reasonable for Moyes to blackmail the club into allocating him a larger share of the cash and demanding that he get X% of fellaini's fee or whatever, I'd honestly be happier to see Moyes given the sack and a new manager brought in who is willing to work within the financial constraints of the club .

Given the way many peoples personal finances and the country's finances are up shit creek from spending more than they earn, I'm actually quite shocked that I seem to be the only one with any real concern that Moyes behaviour in demanding more cash to spend might pose a very real risk to our future.

Nick Entwistle
104 Posted 03/05/2013 at 18:46:47
Dave, Blind loyalty? I don't know many managers who come out and rant about their chairman. If Moyes holding out on his contract is disupting the team (which I don't think it is) imagine the upheaval of Moyes coming out and telling the truth. A unified front is beneficial...

Barry, I think the majority of the fan base want Moyes to stay. There wouldn't be expectations raised. Nice try.

Wayne, Demand or seeking assurances? No transfers in five of the last seven windows is probably not a situation Moyes would want to continue or commit to. Understandable, no? And think long term - where would this bankrupting stand Everton under Moyes' charge in future? Equally unpalatable.

NEXT!

Dave Lynch
105 Posted 03/05/2013 at 19:18:09
No problems with what your saying Nick but the truth will eventualy "out" at some stage.

I just feel the fans are being treated like the proverbial mushroom and Moyes is complicit in that.

But I agree that silence is probably the way forward at the moment, until Bk leaves. Then we can really get to the truth.

Nick Entwistle
106 Posted 03/05/2013 at 19:29:29
Agree, but if he wanted to stay manager throughout his tenure, he'd keep his mouth shut. I don't think there's any wrong doing by the board - nothing beyond incompetence anyway. So realistically, what's he going to do and how's it going to help for him, players and supporters?

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