George Green among players released

I heard he had an attitude problem but this oneÂ’s going to come round and bite us on the arse. Obviously one Martinez doesnÂ’t rate at all.

Huge shame as the clips I saw of him showed a lad of immense talent but by the look of things he is yet another who has failed to make the transition from boy star to first teamer.

Lets hope the likes of Liam Walsh, Ryan Ledson and Kieran Dowell do not go the same way.

Billy Kenny has been mentioned – without doubt, he would have gone on to captain Everton and England. His talent was immense.

I just hope that young George doesnÂ’t have anything at all resembling Billy’s problems. Unbelievable!

WasnÂ’t it last season when in an interview with various Everton fan groups and asked about Green part of his reply was something along the lines of "HeÂ’s a player I like"? Whatever he said gave me the impression the lad was in his plans because of his ability, even if there is a lot of work to do to get into the first team squad.

ItÂ’s disappointing news because heÂ’s unquestionably got talent. It will be interesting to see what Roberto says about his decision to release him, where the lad goes from here, and how well he does.

The Bradford manager said about Green he was as good as Gazza, hopefully not GazzaÂ’s troubled mind is an issue with him! Good luck to both of them.

Any details on the terms?

Great shame it didnÂ’t work out. Always thought Ledson, Kenny & Green would be the three to make it.

WeÂ’re led to believe things have come a long way since the tough trials by fire at the school of hard knocks, cleaning the bogs and putting spit and polish on the senior playersÂ’ boots... Hopefully the overall programme is a little more enlightened these days, and does its utmost to meet the very individual needs of each player that extend well beyond the realms of football training... Or does that go against a team ethic where the player, no matter how special, must be forced to conform for the good of the team?

ps: Dave (#12), thanks for the clarification. You said originally "according to another thread" rather than another website, which I took to mean Darren BaileyÂ’s (#1) post, that was also on another thread before these early posts were moved to this thread.

Unfortunately talent alone isnÂ’t enough these days. Gone are the days, when a player like Stan Bowles who was released by Man City for a bad attitude to play in lower leagues, would be able to bounce back to play for England and became QPRÂ’s greatest ever player.

Nowadays when a player leaves a premier league academy, they usually end up carving out a career with minnows in the lower leagues, if theyÂ’re lucky!

If the rumours about substance misuse are true, Green will likely follow the path of another ex City player who was heralded as the next big thing - the player being Michael Johnson who was another like our own Billy Kenny who had the world at his feet, but sadly let inner demons push him to self destruction.

Appreciate that George had continued to improve and progress with his first club for a few more years, other clubs would have stepped in before we got a look in.

Every player and every situation is different. Players develop and mature at different stages. Attitudes of players also differ. We will never know if John Stones would have got as far as he has if he had been signed at 15.

Like Chris Waddle said, maybe we do put too much pressure on these kids.

I would love a team full of local lads representing the 1st team but it plainly not happening at all, not just here but in all premier league clubs!

I live in Swansea and it seems every child over the age of 6 who can kick a ball is Â’ in the academyÂ’ but is it setting them up for a fall? The reality is a tiny percentage Â’make itÂ’ . Would it be better for all youngsters to play for the school and with their mates until maybe 15 then be given a shot only if really good enough?!

The whole system seems a bit of a mess — especially when you hear of talented players going off the rails!

Only the very best make it to first team level and only if they fully apply themselves. At Bradford he was a big fish in a small pool. On moving to our club, he apparently found it difficult to adjust to playing with better players.

Good luck to him in finding another club at a lower level.

IÂ’ve heard that he fell out of love for the game at one point. You have to assume it's to do with attitude because his talent was well worth keeping hold of!

The Tranmere loan seems strange. As if it was last chance saloon for him! Must have failed the test?

I find myself wondering the very same thing. George Green was 15 when he signed for us from Bradford, at which point I assume he left his family home and moved to the North West to live with a host family. Whilst some of these host families no doubt provide an excellent home for these children, surely no host parent is going to be as concerned about the childÂ’s future as their parents.

Remembering myself at 15, I was nowhere near mature enough to leave home (in hindsight, I wasnÂ’t even mature enough when I was 18 and did move away for University!). IÂ’m sure without my parents' influence, things could have gone titÂ’s up!

I think a lot of young players would be better staying with their local club, getting into the first team and signing for a Premier League team when they are a bit older, like John Stones!

At such a young age, it's a numbers game. Did they promote the couple who have made it through recently as the future stars? And they could be gone in a year.

But as time went on this actually should be no surpise at all. When was the last time Green played for England youth... 3 years ago? If you can’t make England Youth, you have almost no chance.

I hoped it was all injuries that was keeping him out... whether it was his doing or the fact that his football never matured, I don’t know... but, for me, this is again evidence if I had a talented kid, the last place I would put them is into a Premier League club’s academy. Keep them off-radar... keep them playing competitive league football... keep them improving without the hype.

He might look back and see joining Everton as the start of the end of his career. Sad if true.

We can’t run the lives of young players entirely, or forever, but certainly more must be done from 14/15 right through to 20. Boredom and fat bank accounts are a dangerous combination for a young lad. Everton has produced another example. If he’d fulfilled his potential maybe he could have been worth £10m, so even from a purely financial point of view...

Am I right in thinking that, if we hadnÂ’t formally offered Garbutt a contract, then he could have left on a Gosling type freebie? If thatÂ’s the case, then I suppose the situation hasnÂ’t really changed.

A fellow terrific in a particular sport, who doesnÂ’t particularly give a shit about it. It gets him girls, some fame, and money in his pocket; at an age when his buddies have little or none of these things. Getting all this without having to work hard to garner such. He was, simply, really good at a particular sport. HeÂ’s gone and best of luck to him.

We have posters in here who can actually share remembrances about life during the Blitz. Leaving us with a body of footy experience extending back 70-75 years. Keeping GreenÂ’s case as a "What Happened?" example, and since we got a minute, let me ask a ToffeeWeb question. There must be several reading this who had superior athletic ability and skill in footy. But it never panned out. What was the main reason you didnÂ’t/couldnÂ’t pursue a career in the Top Flight?

Could have the club done more? Who knows but itÂ’s a numbers game and a business for them.

Sad that kids of that age are already on the scrapheap as most of them wonÂ’t achieve much else as the vast majority have jack shit to fall back on. ItÂ’s been that way for years.

Franklin Colbeck was another youngster who had "issues" at a young age after spending all his childhood being sent to chase the dream.

I know that these lads have it good once the money comes in but they miss the normal teen years and for some of them itÂ’s just simply too much. Hopefully Green will find his own path but IÂ’m thinking he will never be a top top player an probably only be a championship player at best until his late twentys.

Lundstram is a similar story in terms of not having the required quality to make it at a high level at a young age, he will probably end up being another championship player at best until hes older.

Still they only have to look at someone like Mark Ward who was released by us but ended up playing with three top flight clubs. Good luck George.

The goal for Tranmere, the heel volley and the stories of a hat trick in a trial game that had up to 20 clubs chasing his signature, will make us all wonder what could have been! For us to release a player who is still only 19 with so much ability would suggest that there are serious issues afoot. I hope the lad will get the help and guidance he needs.

I wonder if the results would have been different had players like Green, Baxter, Spencer, Kissock, Chadwick, Anthony Gerrard, even Rodwell were in the Southampton system.

And donÂ’t get me started on Mustafi!

The amount of uproar IÂ’ve heard about the release of Green from people who wouldnÂ’t recognise the lad if he was standing in front of them is crazy. The lad couldnÂ’t even get a starting place for the second worst team in the Football League, mainly because of his attitude and also a desire to think he was George Best in his own half wanting to take on the world by himself putting his team mates in situations (words of a Tranmere fan).

The club sit down and IÂ’m sure all relative parties have their say before we ditch them; and, to be fair, there have not been many coming back to haunt us. If a kid hasnÂ’t got the desire to keep away from drugs, booze or whatever to make it into a world us supporters can only dream about, then good riddance, give the lad who does a chance instead.

But we have had lots of youth players with potential during MoyesÂ’s era. Yet only a few of them break through (despite the fact that they make the England U1x regularly). Some of them getting released eventually.

DidnÂ’t he try to change the youth training method to be focused on the physical aspect instead of skills too? Then all the coaches got lost and frustrated.

I wonder what Moyes would have done to Ronaldo when he joined Man Utd as a 19-year-old kid? Tell him not to dribble so much? Ask him to track back and improve on his tackling?

There is no doubt in my mind that Moyes ruined a lot of youngstersÂ’ careers by not focusing on developing their soccer skills. ThatÂ’s why most of them hit a wall when they are 18 or 19.

Would Anichebe and Rodwell be developed better if they were in Southampton? I definitely think so!

In hindsight, it might have been better to leave him at Bradford after we signed him and let him develop by coming through the ranks there. Hopefully this can act as a wake up call and he can get his career back on track at another club.

50% of all youngsters are doomed to failure and very few at any club go on to make an impact at first-team level. I would also argue that the motivations for the youngsters in modern times is very different to what it was many many years ago, then it was about forging a career because they loved playing the game, nowadays many youngsters want the fame and the rewards but donÂ’t put in the necessary hard work and without that they too are doomed to failure no matter how talented.

Kevin Ratcliffe was Andy KingÂ’s boot boy and Kevin said that Kingy gave him a hard time, whilst Ratters didnÂ’t enjoy it at the time, he realised that it helped him to grow up and helped to toughen him up for what is a very demanding career. NobodyÂ’s advocating going back to treating the kids as lesser mortals but somebody has to ensure that the Â’stardomÂ’ doesnÂ’t go to their heads, not easy to achieve but like most things any player will only get out of the game what he puts into it.

ThereÂ’s no way on earth this lad would have broken through under Moyes with Jags and Distin ahead of him. Johnny Heitinga was unable to break up that partnership and he was a Dutch international.

The next position for a centre half to learn his trade is full back and how was he going to be better than Baines or Coleman? Sometimes things happen for the benefit of the club and sometimes it benefits the player; in this case, the player benefitted.

The dollars and fame come far too soon for kids too immature to handle them. I fail to see what damage would be done by creating a scaled wage structure for these kids until they are 21; although all clubs would have to buy into it.

This one is going to come back and bite us on the arse big time... and you know what, I actually hope it does. I hope George goes on to make a mockery of this decision and the staff who have sanctioned his release.

If the old system was wrong then spend more money on educating these lads on a second career.

Martinez gets a lot of stick but one thing I think hes getting right is building houses on Finch Farm. These kids have got to realise how lucky they are, and should be made to immerse themselves totally in football.

IÂ’m sure if this happens the production lines would soon be getting a lot busier

I agree with everything else you say though Patrick, because 90% of these kids wonÂ’t even feel they are lucky, it will just become a job to them.

The fact that people have to go back as far as Mark Ward as an example of a bad decision, sort of demonstrates how rarely these decisions come back to haunt you. Also we are just as likely to pick up another clubs previous "wonder-kid" who drops down a few levels then shines.

One of my oldest mates (a blue) has a lad who is (just) 16. In that incredibly short space of time, the kid has been at Blackburn, Man City and Liverpool (so though not considered to be Messi, good enough for professional sides to be interested).

And, the kid is now done with football, his decision – basically told his dad, "I don’t want to do it no more," and his dad said "Fine – up to you."

My mate is football mad and spent years dropping the kid off and picking him up at various clubs and tournaments and probably had dreams of his son making it, but he definitely isnÂ’t sorry the kid is out of it.

He told me (heÂ’s very sweary) "TheyÂ’re cunts yÂ’know... the clubs like, they donÂ’t give a fuck and you know what, they donÂ’t even pretend they do. The only lads who donÂ’t get treated like shite is if thereÂ’s a kid who IS Messi or Rooney, one of them type of kids."

He said all that stuff you hear about clubs now considering things like education or what happens if lads don’t make it is "All fucking bollocks, they do fuck all, they’re only interested in one thing – players good enough to be signed by someone. Either for them or to sell."

He told me he met a Spanish woman at Melwood who had been encouraged to move to Liverpool as a Spanish scout liked her 12-year-old son who was with Betis or someone. They hadnÂ’t given her anything other than the hope he could make it and so sheÂ’d left home with the kid. No job, no house, different country, lingo, basically encouraged to risk all on the very slim chance the kid might make money in the future.

My mateÂ’s son is like many 16-year-olds in that itÂ’s hard getting much out of him at the best of times, but when I ask him about his football, itÂ’s obvious that the whole experience was 100% joyless for him and to me, that is an absolute fucking crime.

To me, it should be law that no club can have any dealings with any kids until those kids are 14.

Same for kids playing in leagues, if youÂ’ve ever seen the carry-on out of some of the shaven headed, trackie-wearing, Fergie wannabe lunatics in charge of kids sides, youÂ’d call social services.

Another (French) mate in a tiny place called Neville in Normandy has a son who is mad on football. When I went with his dad to watch his village/town play in an Under-15s fixture, the whole thing had a completely different feel or Â’vibeÂ’ (Â’er..itÂ’s just the whole vibe your honourÂ’).

It looked so much more relaxed and less stressful and the kids werenÂ’t being screamed at every 30 seconds along the lines "Arrete le tip-tappin, get it dans le fuckinÂ’ box!!"

After the match (a draw), my mateÂ’s son looked happy and relaxed and like heÂ’d had an enjoyable experience.

After every England World Cup (failure), thereÂ’s head-shaking and inquests and suggestions of how to put things right, but IÂ’ve never heard Â’Just fucking leave them alone til theyÂ’re 14Â’ suggested.

My campaign to help kids and improve English football wouldn’t be subtle, basically posters with this pic Link and lines like "If you’ve got a big mouth, a red face and a shaven head and you’re wearing a trackie, you’re the reason English football is shite – fucking do one, you fat meff!"

Think about the last three "big" names to come through the youth squad to actually become names in the Premier League:

Rooney, Rodwell and Barkley.

WhatÂ’s the connection? All scousers.

All can pop home to the parents at a minutes notice and all built like brick shithouses.

A lad in work says his son has been all over the show for trials and when he managed to get a team he simply fell out of love with football. Too much pressure and too business like.

Only the strong will survive, unfortunately.

When you consider the significant sums of money invested in coaches, technicians etc, itÂ’s a crime that any young person comes away disillusioned by the game. The Â’let them sink or swimÂ’ dogma is no way for any professional outfit to behave and, considering that young players are the lifeblood of the game, it's complete madness for the clubs to behave towards their prospective talent in that manner.

Organised sport is fine as long as it remembers that first and foremost it is to be enjoyed by those who participate, just as art and music should be. If the talent is there and nurtured, it will bring rewards but only those who have exceptional talent and work the hardest will make any financial reward from that talent.

It is, as you say, not helped by some of the parents who only see their offspring as a conduit to undreamed of riches; whoever said that "the love of money is the root of all evil" wasnÂ’t at all wrong.

Secondly, agree with just letting kids enjoy their football. But as you say, some of the local kids teams are just as bad in terms of putting pressure on them.

Ideally they stay close to home, arenÂ’t giving up their lives, but still get a good quality football education. DidnÂ’t clubs used to have boundaries they had to work in when picking up kids? Our has that gone the way of limiting the number of kit releases?

It is not surprising young players who come from outside of Merseyside, fail to make the first team – a good lesson, just have the homegrown. Young men still need their mums, dads, siblings close at hand.

When he went to see them, all they talked about was the kick-backs mum and dad would get if he signed, new TVs etc. He ended up with Bolton because, when he went to see them, they talked about what they would do for his development and how they would help him fit in.

I had a mate whose son started at Liverpool then was released at 18, he went to a couple of other clubs, and never made the grade but still plays for an amateur club.

Regarding starting them too young I couldnt agree more, and to see the under 10 kids paraded around Goodison is again fueling false expectation. Many years ago you could only sign kids on schoolboy forms at 14/15, but now they get the kids to young.

I used to go to what is now called the Shankly playing fields and Mick Lyons ran a team of kids. I knew Mick and used to chat with him, and he always praised kids from both sides who did something good. But then you listen to the Neanderthalls who watch their kids play, and you have to feel sorry for their kids.

Sadly in the cruel world of football, kids have always been released by clubs going back decades. But the money is so massive now and they see the first team players turning up in Gold Rolls RoyceÂ’s and they think that will be me one day.

I read an interesting article about Nii Odartey Lamptey some time ago, which is a little related. Some of you might find it interesting to read, especially because of the way he was exploited at points: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/feb/03/africannationscup2008.africannationscup1

Sadly, we are unlikely to find out the official view. Good luck to him. Hope he gets another chance somewhere else.

Back in the 70s I was one of those kids in Mick Lyons’s Sunday team (’Malpas’ – named after the road where Mick lived on the Croxteth Estate) and remember those days well.

The other thing I recall was that in those days there weren’t that many people on the touchline at either Sunday League or school matches – certainly nothing like today.

And the Neanderthal behaviour is not restricted to the parents either – some of the conduct of rival "coaches" and teachers leaves a lot to be desired.

Different sport but I always remember Alan Rudkin giving prizes out at a boxing show, he spoke to every boxer he gave a prize to, but he spoke more to each losing boxer and IÂ’m sure he did more for their future in boxing by this simple form of kindness than just letting them walk away without any bit of encouragement.

He always seemed happy to chat and (even when unsteady on his pins) always came across as very pleasant.

(And career-wise, if ever a feller had reason to feel luck/fate had conspired against him.)

That was fine though, we were all adults (more or less) and it kind of added to the Â’funÂ’ (although Â’funÂ’ might not be the most accurate way to describe an away game against Speke Argyle).

As children however, we were just left to our own devices and apart from school teams, I donÂ’t remember any adult involvement at all.

You picked the venue, you picked sides, you played until it was dark. You knew when youÂ’d played well and you knew when you hadnÂ’t and if you hadnÂ’t, there was always tomorrow. And was it enjoyable?

We just couldn’t get enough – from when I was about 7/8 to my early 20s, I wanted to play football every single day (and for the majority of them, did).

However, had some fat angry lunatic screamed "FUCKING GET RID!!!" each time I got the ball, IÂ’d have probably knocked it on the head before I was 10.

British champ and three shots at the world title, he never made a lot of money, I think his biggest purse was£10,000 for one of his world title efforts, he was well liked by boxing fans and people he drank with and grew up with.

WhereÂ’s the evidence of his bad behaviour? IÂ’ve spoken to George on a number of occasions and heÂ’s not that sort of guy.

Last summer, I was taking my granddaughter to a play park and passed some football matches on the way. They involved kids probably aged 7 to 14. The atmosphere was toxic. There was no sense of fun, no idea of a team, just the X-factor for kids kicking a ball.

I moved on because of a demented, blood vessel bursting, tracked suited, utterly poisonous, half witted loon screaming, "Keep your shape, keep your shape", What he meant, neither he nor I, nor any of the kids, knew.

It seemed very relaxed and fun, no shouting or pressure. Just a snapshot, but perhaps they do things better in other countries.

Some interesting, and prophetic, comments about Roberto Martinez on that thread.

Hilarious... and wise.

Here in the US the sideline yobs donÂ’t have shaven heads... they have comb-overs tweaked with Grecian Formula... but the vibe is the same.

30 years ago I was one of the top youth referees in the Midwest. Gave it up because I was having too much trouble controlling my desire to run over to the touchline and punch out these asshole coaches. I hear nothing much has changed.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-06-08/football-coach-beaten-up-by-furious-dad-on-the-touchline-during-under-nines-match/

Thus I was inducted into refereering. It was the Under 12s Division!