The False Parallels with 1984

There is absolutely no parallel, why? In '84 we were realising our potential and we were starting to soar. We continued throughout that decade and became the pride of Merseyside. We got worldwide recognition and if it wasn't for the ban imposed on English clubs we had the quality to triumph in Europe, something we did by breezing through the Cup Winners' Cup, beating the mighty Bayern on the way to a complete training session in the final.

The FA Cup is a knock-out competition and the League Cup, up till the semi final. This gives the opportunity to have a go to plucky teams, with a bit of luck as well, to go on and win it. Martinez did it with Wigan! Whereas the Premier League is a measure of consistency; if you don't measure up, you could easily find yourself in 12th or 15th place after Easter, or worse!

The only parallel I would like to make to this year's FA Cup run, is with our 1966 campaign when we never conceded a goal until the final – and then we gave Wednesday a 2-goal start before winning 3-2.

Happy days.

Howard was a wonderful player, not only when playing as an equal amongst greats but also when pulling together a team of donkeys. He saved us single-handedly from being relegated one season (was it 72-73?), he was superb at Stoke and Blackburn. Yes, he appeared to be on the brink at the end of 1983 but he deserved his break. He understood football, he understood players and fans, and he adored Everton. Martinez is not fit to lace his boots and should be run out of town now.

This is the season of difference. Leicester City have given the lie to the nonsense that only money can win you things. In the long run that may be correct, but over a season, no. We don't have a season, we have 2 games. Someone at the club, Ferguson, Unsworth, Sheedy, Baines, it doesn't matter who, should lead the revolution, tell Martinez he will not be listened to, and take over. Then, in honour of Howard, take the team out for a few beers.

I'm serious here. Now is a time when heroes could be born. Just 2 games.

He supported and praised his players and had the vision to put MEN into His team. Reid, Gray, Ratcliffe, Southall and brought in other MEN, Bracewell, VDH, Stevens as well as the technicians, Sheedy, Stevens and created a great blend.

To compare this useless prick with Howard is a travesty. I realise that this is not the intention, Lyndon, but I would not have ever expected to see Howard do what Martinez has just done with Baines.

The only comparison I would make with Martinez is Mike Walker – another egotistical fantasist with more concern about his appearance than his team's showing and totally out of his depth at a club like Everton...

Indeed, it wasn't, Chris. My intent was to compare (kəmˈper/ verb: estimate, measure, or note the similarity or dissimilarity between) not correlate.

On TW we should be turning our minds to that age-old conundrum: how football supporters without little power or influence, but numbering tens of thousands, can influence a small number of people who run their club who do have a decision making ability.

The club's supporters have reached their collective verdict on the Manager as the TW poll demonstrates. However, as usual in these matters, almost everyone on the outside had no idea what the the current view is on the inside.

I really do believe that our name is on the cup. I hold this view not be because of anything Martinez might influence in terms of our play but rather because I am convinced the players will give their all, above and beyond the cause, in order to atone for the abysmal fayre they have served up for much of this season. Wishful thinking – could be but it doesn't really feel like that!

Let's get the cup out of the way decide how best TWebbers can make their limited influence heard in the right quarters. This will clearly be an even more difficult task once we have won the cup!

The night before he also brought on Peter Reid who helped to change the game, was it against Coventry? This was the game which turned the tide, not the often repeated one, at Oxford.

Colin Harvey's role in Everton's success is very under-rated, as is Peter Reid's,. Before this game, Kendall had hardly used Reid; he came in and was an extra captain along with Andy Gary who was bought around this time.

I will always be grateful to Howard for giving us our pride back but there was a great team around him, on and off the pitch.

A couple of months ago, I watched on YouTube two games from the 80s: Southampton in 85 and Chelsea 87 – both away wins. The chasm between the effectiveness and quality of those teams and today's had me squirming at how poor my judgement in today's team was. The fight and desire across the pitch in the 80s was wonderous and an embarrassment to today's charges.

Martinez had has his chances but, for me, failing to win when two goals up in FOUR separate games is totally unforgivable. The players too are not without serious blame. They are nowhere near the hype that is getting thrown at them. Hugely over-rated. Barry is the only consistent exceptional footballer in terms of touch and game intelligence and he is practically finished.

Martinez must go now for the good of the club; there is no hope once the players have given up on you.

I think we are violently agreeing.

Have you forgotten the end of 1983? Eleven goals from half a 42-game season, 16th in the league. 0-0 at home to Coventry in front of 13,659?

No false parallel, the previous two seasons were history. Everyone wanted him gone, probably more than want Roberto gone now, but Phillip Carter kept his nerve thankfully.

Not suggesting we're going to dominate Europe in the near future but give both sides of the argument instead of cherry-picking the ones that suit your cause.

As you mentioned, Kendall's first stint was marked with signs of improvement, season over season. We gave him 3 years and he has given us nothing but disappointments and excuses.

The only problem now is the discomfort of him being manager until the FA Cup is over. Anyone thinking he can redeem himself with a cup win is completely ignoring the possibility of a relegation scrap next season with the continued deterioration of our team.

I presume he wants us all to believe we will win the League next season like the Howard Kendall side did.

And " there was a great team around him (Howard)" - that's the whole point, isn't it? Kendall was prepared to allow strong characters such as Reid, Gray, Southall and Ratccliffe to wield their influence. And Colin Harvey must have been constantly in his ear. The narcissist in charge now could never allow that, could never allow the likes of Distin, Eto'o and now Baines to speak up.

A good manager in any industry will listen, accept wise counsel, empower staff. This guy can't handle such things, he stands exposed.

Progress is, quite rightly, measured by full seasons, George, and the whole point of the article was to point out that while Kendall struggled in 1983 (which I haven't denied), his team came out the other side, finished 7th again that season, and eventually went on to dominate Europe.

Whereas Martinez has had two seasons of struggle now and anything akin to a "Stoke (A)" or "Kevin Brock"-type catalyst has come and gone without providing the spark for this present side to click into place.

The reason for that, in my opinion, is that there is very little comparison between the two managers. Unlike Kendall, Martinez does not appear to know how to turn his team around after struggling very obviously for form and results for the best part of 20 months.

Now having read it, I'm kind of disappointed that it's not. I could definitely see Roberto, if he stays much longer, having Leighton interrogated in a darkened room for his thought crime of believing we lack chemistry on the pitch. Two plus two equals five, Leighton, you know that. You should know better.

Carter saw something most of us didn't, thank God.

Roberto has not ever (as yet) put us in such a dire position playing such garbage as Howard did in that period. I'm not saying we need to keep him, just giving it some perspective.

Also, our neighbours were on their way to a third consecutive Title which didn't help Evertonians patience in those days.

This current team has gone backwards in the last 2 years – since we beat Arsenal 3-0 at Goodison and there is no real indication that it will be much different in the remaining games or next season should Martinez retain his position as manager.

On that front, he will not wish to admit he made an error with the appointment of Martinez nor complete his own term of office without seeing a trophy in the cabinet. Two wins at Wembley will satisfy his pride on both counts. And another season of the Spaniard beckons!

It goes without saying that if the current season finishes potless, the continued employment of Martinez will be called into question although I very much suspect it will have to be the new half-owner who finally 'pulls the plank'.

So patience, fellow readers, for sadly, the Roberto saga still has some time to run, I think.

Lyndon's article is excellent, although I've always maintained Martinez has more in common with Lee than Kendall.

Perhaps we'll see a Martinez and Kenwright swansong ending with an FA Cup victory. As opposed to them both as I am, they will have my gratitude and applause.

Then in the summer, perhaps we'll see a complete overhaul of the club. Till then, let's hope it's just a waiting game and not a crying one.

Made me wonder whether we have experienced a 'Crystal Palace' moment to rival the 'Oxford' one. In reverse!

Continued poor football, poor league placings and an awful lot of negative press and publicity will cost the club millions. Millions that despite the new shareholder the club just doesn't have. Moshiri may have deep pockets but a Premier League club is ran on multiple revenue streams. Everton has struggled to raise revenue streams and has been bailed out in recent seasons by TV money related to simply being in the Premier League.

The current revenue streams related to being in the Premier League will shrink if we continue under Martinez. Our performances will make it harder to renew sponsorship deals, will reduce what fans are willing to pay for tickets and merchandise and will reduce the amount of games that TV companies will air.

Moshiri will want to drive the club forward and he may be a breath of fresh air and new impetus for the Board. This, plus the fear of losing money may be the factor that will see Martinez lose his job.

Martinez's record as you said, is simply not good enough. He absolutely shouldn't still be in charge of our club. Other than the odd game, the football along with the results are shocking.

Until the powers to be see what most fans see, I dread to think what the future holds.

What is key in this article is when you state how ambitious is this board. In managers who have been shown the door when performing much better than Martinez, you neglected to mention Dogleash also. He won the League Cup and also got to the FA Cup Final and was shown the door.

Some people laud the fact that we have got to two semi-finals. If we accept that as any kind of barometer for success, then it's no wonder we are so far behind the top clubs.

This is, as you rightly say, a pivotal moment in Everton FC history. If the board get rid of Martinez and actually appoint somebody with a proven track record of winning domestically and in Europe then nobody can have any complaints. If we keep Martinez then that will show, sadly, that the fat Spanish waiter was right all those years ago, we are a small club....and that inaction will cut far deeper than any dire football match we have been forced to endure for the last 2 years.

As a footballer, Kendall was a great midfield player highly rated by everyone with a bit of everything to his game. Martinez was a shit 4th Division footballer.

As a manager, I don't need to list Kendall's achievements, but he knew how to run a football club and when talking to the press, his answers were always intelligent and considered and he never sugar-coated the defeats. By contrast, Martinez is an incompetent buffoon who spouts incomprehensible drivel.

As a man, Kendall was a genuine leader who knew how to handle his players and get the best out of them. The vast majority of lads who played for him (wherever he managed) liked him and respected him and held him in the highest regard. On the other side of the coin, none of that can be said about Martinez, who I believe, is considered by most to be a complete a idiot.

I have been, until recently, fully backing Martinez but my patience (and I have a lot of it) has all but gone. The last straws for me were our performance on Sunday, and then the way he has handled the Baines comments.

I don't know about others but I thought the Baines comments referred to on the pitch chemistry, that as a team they are not clicking and that we are achieving results by individual moments – I would totally agree with this.

I have never called for a manager's head. I have criticised contributors on this site for the 'sack the manager' rhetoric both in Moyes's and Martines's era, but unless the performance in the next 2 games improves SIGNIFICANTLY (and to be honest I don't care about the result) then the board need to look carefully at whether Martinez can continue.

Sorry Roberto but you have all but lost me!!

Martinez cannot be retained on the back of an FA Cup win. We long for a trophy but he even if we win it the league position and general league form is disgraceful.

Next season is going to be even worse. Next season will be one of transition, players are going to leave this summer. That is very clear. However, if we were to bring in a top quality manager, then maybe, just maybe some of the players may change their minds and stay. Perhaps it's too late for Lukaku.

I've seen some terrible Everton teams, but never one where there was anything like this gulf between the team and the sum of its parts – with the parts adding up to several times the weight of the team. That's some achievement Roberto. Two points behind WBA with those resources. Phenomenal.

Howard was always going to succeed as he recognised where it was going wrong, Martinez just keeps doing the same things expecting different results "madness".

Winning the cup from two-nil down eased what little pressure there was on Catterick. Of course in those days there was much less focus on managers or on short-term result patterns but despite the cup win it was clear something major was required to transform the team.

After being totally outclassed by Liverpool in the Charity Shield the following August Catterick spent a club record fee for Alan Ball. The rest is history. In 1966 the primary focus was on players' performance with that of the managers regarded as secondary. Now all the focus is on managers with the multi millionaires on the pitch shielded by the failures, perceived or otherwise, of their manager. In the current climate the social media pressure on Martinez will be eased only slightly by several wins in the league and a cup final victory, but it would certainly relieve any pressure within the club.

Given the abject nature of recent performances it seems highly unlikely the players have the ability or guts to deliver such a run. The manager looks and sounds like a rabbit in the headlights. The most likely outcome for this season is a continued slump in league form and at best some sort of glorious failure in the cup. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

I wouldn't put myself in the "clutching at straws" category however through fear of upsetting the masses, I want Martinez to turn it around and succeed; I've always wanted every Everton manager to succeed, whether they fit my footballing belief or not. If they succeed, then Everton do. Stating the blinding obvious clearly so ask me the question as to whether I think he will succeed: right at this moment, no and I echo Eric Paul – he never will anywhere unless he stops repeating the same mistakes.

Are there parallels? Yes but only parallels, not history repeating itself and there is a subtle difference. If my then 12-year-old brain recalls, we were in true dire straights that winter, not in the throws of mediocrity as now. Genuinely staring into the abyss at the turn of the year. The mood wasn't just vocal, it was vitriolic; leaflets handed out "Kendall Must Go" to those who had bothered to turn up and fill our stadium to little more than 25% of its then capacity and 18th in the league on 14th January 1984. This on the back of a previous season's finish of 15th following Gordon Lee's 19th in 1979-80. It most certainly wasn't blue-tinted glasses throughout all of Howard's first tenure and my youthful recollection is of an atmosphere that far surpasses the current resigned boos at the end of another disappointment.

I wouldn't quite say his task was Moyes-esc. Yes, more Moyes-esc given what Martinez inherited, but aside from 79-80, the decade following the Championship victory of 1970 seemed characterised by a dip then mid-table averageness; indeed Lee achieved 3rd and 4th place finishes prior to his 19th showing that cost him the job. Not my decade, but I don't recall being annual relegation fodder throughout the 70s.

I think Howard's persuasive and winning mentality is what came through. Also, given it had only been a decade since league glory, the fan base could still recall and have its own winning belief more easily reignited. Unfortunately, 3 decades of decline, relegation fear followed by Moyes' style (personal opinion) of KITAN1, which hit the proverbial glass ceiling, has bred a generation (and converted older ones) that wants to believe but can't let itself!

I like the mention of Tottenham; they for me are the model. Sustained building over years, both on and off the pitch. They, not Leicester (freak one-off who totally underwhelmed me at Goodison) are who I would like to see succeed this year. An astute Chairman who deserves huge credit for the manner in which he runs his football club.

Liverpool I think only removed Rogers when someone in the mould of Klopp became available. Their example is good, but it is an example of move when the right man is available, not just for the sake of frustration (had it been the former, he would have gone sooner I suspect).

I'm probably all over the place here! Agree, disagree, isn't that what football debate is all about? To finish, Martinez is on borrowed time unfortunately. He has assembled the best collection of players (quality and technically wise) we have witnessed since Kendall's all to brief spike of success in the mid-80s, which compounds the frustration. It is missing just a couple of final ingredients; sadly after such early promise, it transpires that one of those ingredients is the manager's ability to shape them into a team that functions on a consistent basis.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope Martinez proves me wrong. And I concur; an FA Cup win, whilst nice, isn't a measure of success. It is a platform from which to progress (á la 1984) but true success is measured by your league standing. As one of our many nemesis' across the park once stated; that's your bread and butter.

"Unlike Howard......". I wont finish all of the sentence. Did we truly know at the time whether he knew how to or whether he was going to turn it around? Many didn't think so and wanted him gone. I can genuinely say I believed but I was young and naive.

Fact is at the time we didn't know whether Howard Kendall was going to be the great manager he did become and if you'd have listened to the masses he never would have been. "Kendall he must go" as the kopites still remind us of to this day.

Billy boy, and Martinez have ego's too big to see the bigger picture. It's laughable the way a lot of fans think we can win the FA cup. Just because we beat Chelsea in the last round. Swansea beat Chelsea on Saturday, so that put's that one into perspective.

So if 90% of blues fans wanted Howard Kendall out all those years ago, what chance have today's fans got influencing the egotist, to sack his appointed "what a manager"

To all match going fans, stop wasting your energy, money and sanity and boycott all remaining games. Of course you wont, because you live in hope that either Martinez or the team might just click, like the Kendall dream team.

More of the same rubbish both on and off the field beckon next season. The Everton I grew up with, was a proud respected club. Now we are rightly looked down as a small club. We are heading the same way as Aston Villa and Newcastle.

As a life long born blue, I find it quite sad that the likes of Harold Mathews passed away recently, knowing that his beloved Everton are now 2nd rate also rans.

Money wins you things is no lie. It is a statistically incontrovertible fact.

However, just about everyone in the Premier League now has money. 11th two seasons running is unacceptable.