Choosing a Manager on More Than Hope and Faith

Robin Cannon 12/04/2016 80comments  |  Jump to last
It looks like we're already talking about the next manager as if it's a done deal. I hope it is, and that we'll be starting next season with a new man at the helm. I've reached a point of...not even anger at this point...sheer apathy at how poor we are and how much we're underachieving under Martinez.

And yet...

Look, we have no idea if any manager we hire is going to be any good.

I've seen arguments for the likes of Eddie Howe with follow up comments that he's not good enough and we need someone "proven". Yet how many "proven" managers succeed at their next club?

Or the argument that "we shouldn't hire someone based on one season of success"...a good description of Mauricio Pochettino.

Likewise I've seen calls for Mauro Pellegrini or Marcelo Bielsa, or Guus Hiddink. "Too old", "not a long term appointment".

Or the cry for Mourinho...were he to come...and yet with a demand for attractive football (which is kinda why Abramovich fired him first time round) and long term success (for a man criticized for being "three seasons and done").

As Tony Packwood outlines very clearly in What Makes A Good Manager we can look for the right qualities. But nobody really knows whether any specific manager is going to be successful when they hire him. Every suggestion of particular individual is subjective.

There are a few managers who might be considered "the best". Guardiola, Simeone, you would frankly have classed Klopp in that group before the shite hired him...who else? Who among the managers considered seriously the best in the world is available and gettable for us? Probably of the most well considered managers in Europe, Unai Emery is the most likely of those we could hire. And then you're looking at someone who's never managed in England (but who clearly has a desire to manage here).

What I'd like to see us do is be radical, but strategic, in our approach. I care less about who we hire, and more about how we hire them.

The most successful manager we've hired since HK #1 was the most radical hire we've made; David Moyes. Never managed in the top flight, young, inexperienced...and while for me he grew far too conservative in his later years, made a massive difference to how we're viewed.

But the safe hires haven't worked; Harvey, Walter Smith. And the most recent, and on the surface a legitimately risk taking hire, Martinez, has also failed.

Managers hired without a wider strategy for what the club is going to achieve will, regardless of ability, likely fail. We, relatively wealthy, relatively secure in the Premier League, with potential to do much more, are not going to attract a world great but we might attract a potential great. And it will be a risk to hire them.

What would I do? Hire Bielsa and have him groom one of the selection of promising coaches we have at the various levels in the club to be his successor in 2-3 years. Failing that, Unai Emery...who after talking with West Ham last season is clearly interested in managing in the Premier League and gettable for our profile.

And either of those choices might go massively wrong.

But I would prefer for us to go massively wrong while making a considered choice, based on a long term strategy that's willing to take risks, and clear criteria for what we want from a manager. Rather than a "safe" option who might be less likely to blow up in our faces but is never likely to explode to success.

Your opinion is subjective. My opinion is subjective. The only objective demand is how we hire; not based on mood, not based on popularity, but based on potential, genuine strategy and plan for our direction.

It frankly never feels like we've ever done that in the four decades I've watched us. We've hired on hope and faith and little else. If Moshiri is pulling the stings now, and can change anything, I hope it's that.

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Martin Nicholls
1 Posted 12/04/2016 at 08:53:55
Has to be Emery.
Paul Conway
2 Posted 12/04/2016 at 09:22:28
No Manager can guarantee instant success. Most of them come with a rebuilding plan and its only fair to accord them that time. But, they should be offered a contract accordingly, and I think 2 years is adequate.

Anto Byrne
3 Posted 12/04/2016 at 09:26:07
If the board decide to keep Martinez, then he has the opportunity to clear out a lot of the deadwood. Following Howard out the door should see the likes of Hibbert, Osman, Gibson, Kone and Pienaar. That is seven players not good enough for the first team.

With the distinct likelihood of Stones, Lukaku and maybe Barkley and who knows perhaps Mirallas and a couple more we could end up needing quite a few new faces. With the investment and money from sales it does offer the opportunity to rebuild.

Once the remnants of the Moyes old guard have gone he will be allowed another season to turn it around. Building from the back it has to be a top class keeper and we do need to replace Jagielka's lack of height. How long do we rely on Barry? Surely at 36 his time is up.

It's going to be an interesting summer. I hope Moshri is biding his time getting a feel for how the club runs and will start by appointing a top class CEO, implement a 5-year plan for the new stadium and have a performance-related manager.

Dean Peamum
4 Posted 12/04/2016 at 09:56:05
We already have Emery. Dick Emery.
Anthony Dwyer
5 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:13:19
Emery is a good shout, but there is such a large selection of good managers who want to get to the Premier League.

We should take advantage of the situation, we now have financial backing, we have good players, a decent youth policy, and there aren't currently many Premier League clubs who need a new manager.

I just hope that the new regime at the blues take this opportunity and run with it.

If we have a decent project in place, were we keep the core of our young talent together, whilst having a sizable transfer kitty (which is reported to be the case), then why can't we go for the very best managers??


Phil Walling
6 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:23:01
Never felt like this before? As I remember it, the nineties were pretty hairy:

92-93 – 13th
93-94 – 17th
94-95 – 15th
95-96 – 6th
96-97 – 15th
97-98 – 17th
98-99 – 14th
99-00 – 14th

Perhaps all the Moyes haters have very short memories!

Andrew Clare
7 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:41:45
The nineties along with the fifties were the worst decades in Everton's history. Luckily after the fifties we had Johnny Carey and the great Harry Catterick to put us back where we belong.

Unfortunately we didn't get that after the nineties, we got David Moyes who started off well and steadied the ship but did no more than that unless you are happy with being also-ran's.

The main problem we have now is if Kenwright is involved in recruiting a new manager. Already, Martinez should have been replaced... so I don't hold out much hope unless Moshiri takes full control of everything.

Steve Hopkins
8 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:46:21
I believe that our opportunity to fish in that so-called bigger managerial pond was after Moyes left and before Martinez was appointed. We were a much more attractive prospect for a bigger name manager, the team were an established top-half side with numerous international players just needing a couple of signings, some belief and a sprinkling of flair. Any prospective manager would have seen that our outgoing manager had also won himself one of the most coveted club jobs in world football as a result of his work here.

Now we're on course for back-to-back bottom-half finishes and with a number of our players grumbling and looking for pastures new. I've also questioned on another thread this idea that we're suddenly one of the richest clubs in the country. Even if Moshiri opens his wallet we've still only achieved parity with 75% of the Premier League clubs who've been taken over and well backed financially for some time now and there's easily at least 7 teams with deeper pockets and less infrastructure problems than we have.

Putting our blue tinted specs to one side, which of the Mourinhos, Hiddinks and Pellegrinis of this world are really going to want to potentially gamble their reputations and manage us? Realistically we'll be choosing from a pool of people wanting to chance their arm in England but without a reputation prestigious enough for the top 4 or someone who's up and coming in the UK already. I suspect that it will come down to who really is calling the shots behind the scenes moving forwards, if we end up with an Eddie Howe then you know it's Kenwright but if we manage to attract a Bielsa or Emery then maybe just maybe Moshiri is stepping up and there's hope for us yet.

Derek Thomas
9 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:51:44
Phil; tell me you don't want to hire Moyes back...Moyes had us static, Martinez has taken us backwards. So forwards mate, forwards, even if it is into the unknown. Moyes is a known known, a well known known, with known limits.

'The Goldilocks Option' that's the key – Not too much Moyes, not too much Martinez, but just right.

Alan Bodell
10 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:52:33
Dean (#4), thanks mate I just spat my cornflakes on the floor, Dick Emery belter.

Many won't but I'd love Moyes back and he would have us way up there with this squad.

Craig Walker
11 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:56:54
Mourinho isn't going to come to Everton. Not a chance. He wouldn't be my choice but I could see us going for Mark Hughes.
Stephen Ashton
12 Posted 12/04/2016 at 10:59:52
I don't get the love in with Emery, played most of his career in the Spanish second division, has never won anything other than the Europa League at Sevilla (with Michel's team). He was sacked by Spartak Moscow after a disastrous run of results and has never managed in the Premier League. What on earth makes us think that he is the guy to take us to the next level?

I know it may be a bit off the wall but I would go for Dennis Bergkamp. He knows the Premier League well, is a big enough name to attract the best players available to us, has surely served his apprenticeship at Ajax under De Boer, he has managed the Dutch Under-21 side and he speaks fluent English.

He always had a nasty side as a player, is not a fool, is a student of the game and is a winner. His serious fear of flying may be an issue but not for at least a couple of years.

Derek Thomas
13 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:02:27
Moyes? Hughes? what we need is a 'No fuckin way poll'...with them 2 at the top.

Who else do we think is in the 'No fuckin way' category?

Brian Harrison
14 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:03:11
The top managers go to the top clubs, so we can forget Simeone sadly as he would be my choice or Mourhino.

I think there are 2 possible targets who I believe would come to Everton. The first is Koeman has had a year in the Premier League and I believe would do a good job. The other plus for him is that his reputation as a player might persuade some players who might not have chosen us to come here.

My second choice would be Mark Hughes, he has transformed the way Stoke play, and his buys on a smaller budget have been very good. I think when he bid for Shaquiri most of us thought he won't go to Stoke.

Dennis Stevens
15 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:08:01
"The most successful manager we've hired since HK #1 was the most radical hire we've made; David Moyes."

I suppose it depends upon how you define success. However, I struggle to see how any definition can have Moyes above Royle – unless your primary criterion is longevity.

Steve Hopkins
16 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:08:20
Brian, you're not the first to mention Koeman and I'd love it to happen but why would he leave Southampton?

They're well backed, nice modern stadium, quality players all over the pitch and doing much better than we are in the Premier League.

Phil Walling
17 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:23:22
Andrew, I'm not in the 'Moyes should return' camp but I think you do his record here an injustice. In only about a THIRD of the 40 seasons immediately before his appointment did Everton finish 'top half'. So His average of 8th-ish over 11 years bears comparison with any similar period except for Catterick's and Kendall Mk 1.

For Evertonians to believe that ours was always the glory is a misrepresentation of our modern history -– proud as it is due to the feats of Howard Kendall and 'Happy Harry'!

Nick Page
18 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:24:04
Thomas Tuchel. Pay up for the fecker to leave BVB and give him a big transfer kitty. It would also piss those pricks across the park right off. Do it NOW Everton!

(I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with Dyche.)

Rick Tarleton
19 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:40:00
People talk as though it's a given that Hughes, Howe at alia would resign from their present clubs to manage what looks like a difficult club. A club with players who have potential, but who may want to move on and leave Everton. It isn't a top job anymore and the problems are complex.

Last week, we were talking of players we had to sign to replace Lukaku and the list resembled a fantasy team; this week, we're doing the same with managers.

Steve Boardman
20 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:42:25
Ok, just for the hell of it..........what about Rafa? I think his name was being suggested a few weeks ago on this site. As I understand it he has a get out clause with Newcastle if (when) they get relegated.

I know he made the infamous "small club" remark about us but isn't he more plausible than a lot of the names being suggested?

Martin Nicholls
21 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:51:22
Stephen – "love in with Emery"? You dismiss the idea on the grounds that a he's "only" won 2 Europa Leagues, has never managed in Premier League and claim his trophy winning success was with someone else's team.

I was privileged to be in Warsaw to watch HIS team win the second Europa League trophy - standout players were Ever Banega (MotM) and Carlos Bacca both of whom I believe were signed by him. Team played great football and showed great fight after going a goal down against a team renowned for "parking the bus" once in front. He currently has a 1.81 win % in La Liga. Taken together, that's all good enough for me.

I wouldn't entirely dismiss your Bergkamp preference, however he too has never managed in Premier League and indeed has never managed at club level – very like Colin Harvey (also a great former player with intimate knowledge of English top flight) who was a great assistant to Howard Kendall but couldn't cut it as manager. If Dutch is the way to go, why not de Boer with Bergkamp as assistant?

Christine Foster
22 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:52:52
Steve, yes, I am afraid it was me who suggested it a couple of weeks back, but his credentials are amongst the best, lets face it, he has won things, a lot of things, no one else suggested has.. just, as the post indicates, other managers are based on hope and faith.

Some may not like, but I still believe he might be a much better option than a Hughes or a Howe.

We have had players from the other lot but never a manager... a lot of water has gone under the bridge, but ask yourself this, is he better than Martinez? Is he better than Moyes? Is he more likely to come than others?

For some its unthinkable, for others it makes sense.. I think we could do a lot worse... like keeping what we have.

Eric Myles
23 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:54:39
"Managers hired without a wider strategy for what the club is going to achieve will, regardless of ability, likely fail"

Robin, I believe Kenwright did have a wider strategy in mind when he hired Martinez who had won the FA Cup with a team much worse than ours, and who promised him Champions League footy.

Eugene Ruane
25 Posted 12/04/2016 at 11:57:16
Rick - 'Last week we were talking of players we had to sign to replace Lukaku and the list resembled a fantasy team, this week we're doing the same with managers.'

You're right but I prefer 'many' rather than 'we.'

Until someone actually says something, or someone actually leaves or arrives, I'm certainly not tying myself in knots and raging about the fact that my own wishful thinking and fantasy scenario isn't coming true.

Linda Morrison
26 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:00:14
I think we should go for Pelligrini. He was interviewed a few weeks ago. He stated that he wanted to remain in England with the Premier League. What was interesting was that he said it "would not need to be a big club."

He stated that with the new TV deal it was now a time for the so called big 4 or 5 to accept that a lot of clubs could develop and challenge for the title.

In yesterday's papers, Martinez was quoted "I would die to get this club to winning ways". Sorry, but that's like Cameron expecting us to believe we are all in this together.

You don't need to do anything so drastic, Roberto, just resign please.

Martin Nicholls
27 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:01:32
Meant to to say 1.81 points per game (despite the "distraction" of twice winning Europa League with chance of a third) not 1.81 win percentage – similar in a Premier League season would give us 69 points.

His La Liga win% is in fact 49.3% – not bad!

Rick Tarleton
28 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:02:27
Yes, Eugene, you're spot on. Fantasy is fine in books or "Game of Thrones", but in football , no.
Ed Fitzgerald
29 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:03:40
Phil

You are taking the piss, aren't you, by trying to align Moyes's 'achievements' with that of Catterick and Kendall Mk 1? They won those shiny cups and trophies we crave, remember? Plus the football we played was exciting and successful in comparison to the turgid sludge offered up by Moyes.

Now Phil it wasn't always glory under Catterick or Kendall Mk 1 but there were plenty of glory days; I was there... and I suspect you were too

Chris Pitchford
30 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:05:17
A good breakdown of the issues involved in choosing a new manager here, Rob. As you say, no new manager comes without risks and even proven managers like Mourinho and Hiddink would not be good long term choices.

As much as I hate to say it, Rafa Benitez possibly represents the safest of unsafe bets. A proven manager, a winner and someone who would take the job today if it was offered. But, and it is a big 'but,' given what he has said about Everton in the past, would we accept him in the job?

Mind you, Moyes more or less agreed with Rafa's 'small club' statement when he made his 'knife to a gunfight' remark.

Phil Walling
31 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:06:14
Don't talk daft, Ed. Merely saying that Moyes was a cut above all the other duffers we had apart from those two!
Ed Fitzgerald
32 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:10:26
Glad to hear it, Phil. However, I don't think by any objective assessment you could say he was a better manager than Joe Royle.
Stephen Ashton
33 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:26:32
Martin,
I conveniently forgot his second Europa League win, just as you ignored his venture into Russian football, which was his only season outside Spanish football as player or manager.

I kind of think the point is though that those we want won't come and those who will come we don't want. Stan Collymore on Talksport at the weekend was saying that he had heard that De Boer had been spoken to and, as you say, he and Bergkamp would be an excellent idea.

Ian Glassey
34 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:41:41
De Boer and Bergkamp all day long for me, I could see us moving forward with those two incharge..
Robin Cannon
35 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:44:23
@Dennis (15) – Yeah, that's a fair point on Royle.

@Eric (23) – I believe that Kenwright essentially decided on Martinez after Wigan beat us at Goodison in the cup. That's not a strategy, and in fact I think it likely undermined any motivation to conduct a wider search.

I notice that the comments are largely "we should/shouldn't hire x". To reiterate, any managerial preference is purely subjective.

What we can demand that is objective is a clear strategy, a considered search, and a decision based on solid criteria rather than flavor of the month or memories of a particularly good game against us.

(Of course, all predicated on Martinez leaving, which isn't that sure unless/until we get battered in the semi final.)

Kevin Tully
36 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:44:34
Whenever we talk about hiring a new manager, I always think of Donald Rumsfeld and his famous quote:

"As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know."

Robert Elliott
37 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:45:01
Linda (26) I think what Cameron actually said was "We're all in on it together"!
Phil Walling
38 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:53:00
Ed, I loved Joe to bits as a player and Evertonian. There are those who say he was less than perfect in the role of manager even if he did get us a trophy. Most fail to do that!
Alan Bodell
39 Posted 12/04/2016 at 12:56:04
Kevin, did he say that when they went in to 'sort out' Iraq or Afghanistan? I forget which but it certainly applies to the mess we're in here right now.
Martin Nicholls
40 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:01:22
Stephen – I didn't deliberately ignore the Spartak Moscow bit of his CV! To be honest I hadn't looked too closely at his record prior to Sevilla where of course he has been for three years. One thing no-one could disagree about is that his record over that period is somewhat better than RM's!

As you say, his record at Spartak wasn't great but in his defence it lasted for only 26 games - even so he managed 1.5 points per game which right now (not in the future though!) I'd be delighted with!

Incidentally in his 220 games at Valencia (immediately prior to his stint at Spartak) he clocked up 1.72 points per game – not too shabby! Still,we all have our own opinions but at least we're in full agreement over the De Boer/Bergkamp combo!

Tony Abrahams
41 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:05:20
To install a new manager usually means that you have just got rid of the previous one. How Martinez is still in charge is really bemusing now, but until he's asked to leave, he his unfortunately the manager of Everton.

Picking a good manager is really hard to do, simply because so few teams can win a cup every year.

Who do we want, and even more importantly, what do we want? A mixture of Moyes and Martinez, maybe?

Patrick Murphy
42 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:09:50
Perhaps none of these various threads would be necessary if the current boss looked as if he was learning on the job and adapting to different situations as they presented themselves but yet again in his pre-match press conference he says things that may alarm some supporters.

“As a manager you always concentrate on what you can affect, and that is why it is such a significant period for us because we can affect many things from now until the end of the season.”.....

"To have a long-term role, you have to be very consistent as a manager. I wouldn't say I've done anything different in the last seven seasons at this level."

Isn't that the real problem though – never having done anything different in the last seven seasons at this level?

Iain Love
43 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:12:55
Moyes did well for us considering what he had to work with, but he was never going to take us to the next level.

Martinez started well and getting Lukaku was a masterstroke, but he never learned from his mistakes or grew as a manager. He also never formed a partnership with his Number 2... maybe he picked the wrong Number 2.

What I believe we should be looking at is a management team to take the club forward. Kendal & Harvey together where fantastic, apart they where awful .

At work I always looked for a Number 2 that had strengths in the areas I was weak. Maybe Moyes and Martinez would have worked well, although I think their stubbornness would have got in the way.

Jimmi James
44 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:26:02
I agree with a few comments here, we are living in fantasy land with some of the names thrown about. None of the present Premier League managers are going to resign to come here to face a difficult job to say the least.

We will get a Moyes like appointment ie from lower division or a lower division overseas manager. Can we really hope for anything else?

Danny Broderick
45 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:35:50
Koeman all day for me. He was a defender, so hopefully he would be able to tweak our defence/keeper so we stop conceding so many. He has done a good job with Southampton, and his teams play good football, so it wouldn't be a dramatic shift for our current players.

I think he would come here, for the simple reason that Southampton have never shown any real intent to spend money and build on what they have got. He also only has 1 year left on his contract.

If we got him, it would be a high profile appointment which the world's press would all report. He also has the potential to be a top manager at Barcelona or somewhere. If he could give us 4/5 years before he eventually gets a top job elsewhere, I would accept that. He would clearly be an upgrade on Martinez, certainly in terms of experience and on-field organisation.

Martin Nicholls
46 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:36:10
Jimmi - what makes you think that big name Premier League job seekers like Pellegrini and Bielsa (to say nothing of AVB) wouldn't be interested (assuming as this thread does, that Martinez goes) in the top Premier League job available?
Sean Patton
47 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:39:27
Why not Jimmi?

It really irks me the way fans downplay the club and our achievements and standing in the game you would think it was Doncaster Rovers we supported not Everton.

If Newcastle can attract Benitez who started the season at Real Madrid when they are facing relegation

If Southampton can get Koeman despite selling half their team and being in turmoil then why on earth cant we appoint a proven experienced trophy winning manager like they did.

Robbie Muldoon
48 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:41:35
Ronald Koeman would be a good start.
Dan Davies
49 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:45:14
As of this afternoon the TW poll about whether or not to keep our present manager looks something like this-

Nearly 12,500 fans have voted. A massive 84% want Martinez gone. A huge majority.

Some may not like this analogy but if say you were the owner of a popular restaurant and you were given information that 84% of your "clientele" didn't like the food the chef was cooking, what would you do?

Now I know TW doesn't represent all Everton fans but it's a good barometer for the current groundswell of opinion I feel.

Regarding people fantasizing with the current situation it's only human nature to want to look forward with hope.(or desperation!)

Denis Richardson
50 Posted 12/04/2016 at 13:47:55
Phil – I don't think the 'Moyes haters' have short memories and it's a bit insulting to say so. Personally Moyes '02-'08 = decent job, '08-13 = hypocritical greedy tosser who fleeced the club for £4m/year whilst all along wanting out to a 'bigger' club.

The '90s had two hairy years as every blue of a certain age knows but we also won the cup and had the likes of Speed, Limpar, Kanchelskis, Southall, Dacourt, Ferguson (in his prime), amongst others, gracing Goodison Park at one time or another. It may just be that I'm older or football has changed but that decade was a lot more exciting than the last 10 years, especially the last 2-3 snore years under Moyes (who was just running his contract down) and this season and last under Martinez.

The main problem for me now is that Goodison Park has become far too cosy a seat for whichever manager is in the dug out. Moyes was given way too long and really should have left at least 3 years before he did. Kenwright gave him far too long a contract in 2008 (nevermind the £4m/year!)

All managers should be given enough time to put their ideas in place and get the players in that they want. However, 3 years (if not 2) is enough time to see if the manager has what it takes. That should also be the max length of any contract given to a new man coming in (it can obviously be extended if the guy is doing a decent job – just not after 1 year like in Martinez's case!).

There is no 'be careful what you wish for' as far as Martinez is concerned, we will be in a relegation fight next season if we still have him in charge come August.

As to the OP – any half decent guy who has managed at the top and won something. There will be a long list of applicants for the job.

Ian Burns
51 Posted 12/04/2016 at 14:07:25
Danny (#45)

I agree wholeheartedly with the shout for Koeman but I would like to suggest our defence needs a little more than a "tweak" – it needs completely restructuring!!

I really like the shout for De Boer/Bergkamp – but Koeman first up for me.

Andy Meighan
52 Posted 12/04/2016 at 14:49:15
Steve (#20) have a word with yourself. Benitez? Do me a favour – if that thing ever came anywhere near Goodison, I'd be gone in an instant. Despicable horrible man – and I still haven't forget his "small club" jibe – and whats all this "Rafa" shite? Please.

I don't even think Kenwright would have the temerity to employ that buffoon. Having said all that, it's nice to see the great job he's doing at Sid James Park.... Not!!!

Eugene Ruane
53 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:19:37
Dan (49) - 'Some may not like this analogy but if say you were the owner of a popular restaurant and you were given information that 84% of your "clientele" didn't like the food the chef was cooking, what would you do?'

For me it's not about 'liking' the analogy, it's about whether it works or not.

An imo it doesn't, for the following reason.

When it comes to restaurants, there are loads of them to choose from.

Don't like that shitty one?

No problem, try another - it's not like this restaurant is a massive part of your life (and has been since you were a kid).

But as all clubs know, their supporters will never say 'Well in that case, we'll take us custom elsewhere' (folds arms, haughtily sniffs Ena Sharples-style)

And because of this, just about every 'well it's just like any other business' argument I've ever heard has made me think 'that's exactly what it isn't like.'

Kevin Lovelady
54 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:20:09
First comment on TW prompted by this from the BBC website:

"Everton manager Roberto Martinez is about to speak to the media to preview his side's Premier League game with Crystal Palace on Wednesday. We'll bring you all the best lines in a jiffy..."

Criteria for new manager... Ensure your press image does not deteriorate to the point that journalists are waiting on your lines like for a stand-up comedian!

John Crawley
55 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:23:04
Good post Robin, I've thought for a long time that it's crazy the way we've recruited. I agree start with what you want to achieve and how you want to achieve it then set out the qualities that such a manager would need to do this. Hopefully Moshiri will do this.

On the plus side not sure he can do worse than Kenwright did with Martinez. (He obviously didn't have Walter Smith to advise him on that one!)

Steve Hopkins
56 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:24:48
Sean Patton (#47),

I'd guess that the fat waiter is on a wage that makes Moye's golden deal with us pale into insignificance and in these situations money always makes a difference.

I'd also suggest that there's an attitude difference between clubs like Newcastle, Liverpool, Spurs and ourselves, we seem to have been typecast as the plucky overachievers quite literally living in the past (Goodison) while they all have these delusions of grandeur which allows them to seemingly miraculously attract big name players and managers every season despite not winning much recently.

But of course they can't do that without the bankrolling (see my first point). It's those delusions of grandeur that make them so easy to dislike as a neutral

Jimmi James
57 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:27:33
Martin and Sean, I get what you are saying lads but lets not kid ourselves either. The Everton job is a big job but its also a very very difficult job. Those mentioned here are mostly in jobs in the Premier League and have a long term plan that I feel they will want to see through.

We also have huge problems at board level and while the investment is most welcome its still going to be Kenwright pulling the strings and doing the hiring and firing and Martinez is his big buddy buddy as we know so firstly I cant see him getting rid of Martinez. But even if he does for the reasons I've said we wont get any of the current Premier League managers, now then that leaves Pelligrini (not convinced by him at all); Mourinho no chance.

I hope I'm wrong but we will see if and when the time comes that we are looking for a new manager. Don't forget that Martinez has a plan he wants to see through and Billy boy shares that plan whatever it may be. It's just bloody heartbreaking to be a blue at the moment.

Gerry Quinn
58 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:28:47
Emery - on paper. You could file that as nailed on :)
Steve Bingham
59 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:40:21
Mourhino will have a fire in his belly and a large point to prove ... Perfect!
Oliver Molloy
60 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:40:54
Whoever gets the job – IF Martinez is sacked – I would bet it will not be Rafa.
Dennis Ng
61 Posted 12/04/2016 at 15:54:11
Good post Robin. I was thinking of the same with Biesla, grooming Barry to be our future. Emery is definitely one we should try out luck on. He's not going to win the La Liga with Sevilla, so perhaps the Leicester story might convince him to take the gamble with us. Tuschel is also another good shout. I'm surprised Rudi Garcia is not mentioned, short resume but fairly successful.

I don't understand the whole "these managers are out of our league" theme. When you are looking for a job, you would send your resume everywhere, from the most likely jobs you would get to the least likely dream jobs. And this cuts both ways in the job market. Why would looking for a manager be THAT different? Especially with the vague criteria of "having a long term plan"?

Sure, Koeman, Pochettino, Simeone and Emery might be at clubs a cut above us at the moment, but who knows if they would consider us if we don't try? Pochettino and Simeone are the ones I agree are difficult, but as Klopp was just as difficult to pry at BVB a few years ago, things can change drastically.

Eric Myles
62 Posted 12/04/2016 at 16:14:33
Steve (#56) FSW is reportedly on £4 mill a year at Newcastle.
Steve Hopkins
63 Posted 12/04/2016 at 16:28:13
£4,000,000........WOWZERS!!!

Although arguably worth it if he keeps them in the Premier League...

Dan Davies
64 Posted 12/04/2016 at 16:28:34
I take your point Eugene. Crap example off the top of my head, my point being everybody can see we need a new "chef". Pardon the analogy.

I'm not advocating taking our custom elsewhere I just feel those at the top should respect the fans more than they do rather than sit in their ivory tower oblivious.

How much more unrest, petitioning, polling and banner waving is it going to take to get some sort of/any response from them? The dithering at board level smacks of ameteurism and ignorance.

Denis Richardson
65 Posted 12/04/2016 at 16:33:53
Eric, think a lot of that £4m is contingent on them staying up – which is likely not going to happen as it is. And if it did would be worth it for them.

Would take Wijnaldem off them if/when they do go down.

Stephen Ashton
66 Posted 12/04/2016 at 17:02:32
If we all sold our tickets for the Leicester game to Leicester fans and donated the proceeds, we could have FSW for 5 years!!!!
Steve Harris
67 Posted 12/04/2016 at 19:24:08
Andy (52) Couldn't've put it better myself, why would anybody want that horrible, fat, redshite loving wanker anywhere near our club? As you say, nice to see him doing such a great job with the Barcodes!!!
Paul Ellam
68 Posted 12/04/2016 at 20:36:21
Vitor Pereira?
If not, Emery or DeBoer.
Bjoern Haall
69 Posted 12/04/2016 at 21:09:14
I would like Roger Schmidt of Leverkusen. And what is Villas-Boas doing nowadays? Bergkamp sounds really good. One of the best and smartest players ever.
Charlie Lloyd
70 Posted 12/04/2016 at 22:32:29
I get the feeling Benitez is wanted.

Glad about this. My sentiments precisely. With his previous it just wouldn't work. He'd have to win more trophies than any other manager to clear the slate.

Bet he makes a mean paella though.

Sean Holt
72 Posted 13/04/2016 at 05:42:19
How about Sergei Rebrov?

He has done a good job with Dynamo Kiev since he took over, plays a decent style of football and has recently said in an interview he wants to manage in England. With our new owner's links to Russia, he's a decent option.

Zidane Zayn
73 Posted 13/04/2016 at 08:26:05
Morning all, My first post on here (ToffeeWeb), I have been a supporter of Everton since 1984 (FA Cup Final).

Having seen the list of hopeful managers on this thread amongst other threads too, I was wondering what you guys thought of Klinsman as our manager?

Kev Johnson
74 Posted 14/04/2016 at 20:04:41
Koeman for me or even Klinsmann ... No way Moyes. Move forward, not backwards.
Gary Ashworth
75 Posted 15/04/2016 at 10:41:38
In the midst of all the rumours and speculation, as well as the fans requests for Martinez to be sacked, I believe no decision or comments from the club will occur until the end of the season. The outcome of the FA Cup could also play a part in any decision making.

In the event Martinez remains as manager, he needs to find that spark that has fizzled out this season, find the buzz that was there in his first season. He also needs to explore different formations that play to certain player's strengths. If we look at Leicester City, Ranieri has simply played in form players in their best positions and that has contributed to their impressive season.

Any manager also needs to start looking at fringe players and making tough decisions. Players like Hibbert and Pienaar have been fantastic servants to the club, but they have spent a lot of time injured. Players like Osman and Gibson, who haven't been injured as much, yet don't get games. We also have to consider certain positions (leftback) we have Baines, Galloway and even Oviedo can play there and we will see the return of Garbutt. Yet we don't have an abundance of options for right-back or left-wing.

We currently have a £13.5m striker who isn't getting any real game time, Kone is not an attacking player anymore. We have a young player joining us from Grasshoppers and McAleny, Rodriguez, Henen... but will these guys get any first team action? I mean IF Lukaku leaves, we have no idea if Niasse is an adequate replacement and we all know Kone is definitely not. The current formation is so rigid, no other striker can play in a natural striker's position... it's either Lukaku or no one.

Before we look at other managerial options, we have to hope Martinez starts to look at facts and performance of certain individuals. He brought Kone, Alcaraz and McCarthy with him from Wigan, Alcaraz was pants and subsequently shown the door. Yet you can argue Kone's attacking ability is no better than Alcaraz's defensive ability. McCarthy is a decent player, but the team copes without his presence. We miss the likes of Barry, Jagielka, Lukaku, Coleman and others like Deulofeu, Lennon, Funes Mori, Barkley make a difference when they play. When Besic is in form, he is more effective in that position than McCarthy, yet McCarthy plays pretty much every game.

It seems Martinez picks the squad based on hope and faith, rather than picking players who make a difference, players who perform well when they are in their best position. Whether he stays or a new manager comes in – the coaching staff needs a reshuffle and they need to start selecting a starting XI that earns a place in the squad.

Paul Olsen
76 Posted 15/04/2016 at 17:05:08
Koeman would be my choice. Has not fucked up what Pochettino began at Southampton. Made a pretty good team after the mass exodus
Derek Arnold
77 Posted 15/04/2016 at 23:34:58
First time poster,

My first choice when Martinez was hired and who has remained my Number 1 choice is Micheal Laudrup. Why? He is a winner, he can man manage and he plays attacking attractive football that would suit our squad, not this gung ho "need to score 4 or 5 to win a game" nonsense. What he did with Swansea was one of the biggest achievements in Premier League history.

Second choice is Ronald De Boer for all the same reasons. His ability to develop young talent is excellent.

To give Martinez two seasons grace and see no improvement is beyond a disgrace. The past two seasons can be summarised by the famous quote -"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Clive Lewis
79 Posted 16/04/2016 at 18:27:06
Eddie Howe would be good, Bournemouth 13th in the Premier League with not much money spent. Play passing game etc. Better bet than all those has-beens like Hughes been mentioned.

It's a gamble who ever they get. Pelligrini would be OK but probably going to Valencia.

David Israel
80 Posted 16/04/2016 at 01:38:06
Alan Bodell # 39, it was after 9/11. No one was talking of Iraq yet, just to give the anti-Taliban guys a hand in Afghanistan. I think that was the context.
David Israel
81 Posted 17/04/2016 at 01:40:41
Talking of former managers, didn't Gordon Lee once finish third? The year Forest were champions, perhaps?
David Israel
82 Posted 17/04/2016 at 02:02:34
Steve Bingham #59, Mourinho will only ever sign for a club where he thinks he has a realistic chance of winning the league. Not exactly a long-term builder kind of manager.
Steve Cox
83 Posted 22/04/2016 at 09:28:58
David # 81, Gordon Lee may have had one successful season but after that the football played made Moyes's sides look like Barcelona.

RM seems like a nice fella, but what do nice guys win? When RM does go I hope it's for somebody who we have checked thoroughly and not a knee jerk appointment. It needs to be a younger guy that is visionary and understands the club's history & the importance of the fans. A coach that can play different systems in an instant encourage youth players but be utterly ruthless for the good of the club.

If a club is to be successful in the Premier League it has to have a great goalie and two very good centre backs then you have a solid basis to build your team on. Being able to switch from a back 4 to a 3, switch from a lone striker to 2 or even 3 up front and players covering for each other are all things required.

We have some really good players and a pile of deadwood. Get rid of Hibbert, Pienaar, Gibson, Howard, even Osman and bring some younger players in with potential. The Bundesliga is a great place to shop, players who come from there tend to hit the ground running & have a good attitude.


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