“Nil Satis Nisi Secundus” – Only The Second Best Will Do?

Mike Green 25/05/2016 113comments  |  Jump to last
I’ve been mulling over the current candidates for the job coming up and thought I’d cast an eye over our form in appointing managers and how those decisions have ultimately panned out.

I know that we have to take historical perspective into it (former players often becoming managers / you sometimes have to promote from the lower leagues as a successful top flight manager is unlikely to move from the club he’s at / great managers usually grow from small beginnings etc) but our record looks a bit like this:

Cliff Britton – guides Second Division Burnley into the top flight and to a Cup Final in 1947, promptly made Everton manager. Takes us down in 1951. Win rate 36.34%

Ian Buchan – mysterious appointment, sacked by ambitious Moores after two poor seasons.

Johnny Carey – appointed after guiding Blackburn into the top flight, infamously sacked by Moores in the back of a taxi within three seasons, 5th his best finish.

Harry Catterick – appointed after guiding Sheffield Wednesday into the top flight and then taking them to second place behind Spurs. Wins two titles, an FA Cup and two Charity Shields in twelve years at Everton. Win rate 46.57%

Billy Bingham – former player appointed after failure to gain Greece qualification for the 1972 Euro’s or 1974 World Cup. Previously successful at Southport and Linfield in Northern Ireland; failure at Plymouth. Oversees Everton’s decline over next four years. Win rate 38.6%

Gordon Lee – lower league manager, appointed after 18 months at Newcastle, guiding them to 15th and a League Cup final. Despite good Cup runs takes Everton from 3rd to 15th within 4 years.

Howard Kendall – former player whose only managerial experience is guiding Blackburn into the Second Division. Struggles at first but leads the club to unprecedented success – two titles, one FA Cup, three Charity Shields and the European Cup Winners Cup. Left after European club ban. Win rate 54.13%

Colin Harvey – former player and first team coach, no managerial experience. Everton finish 4th, 8th and 6th but Harvey is replaced by returning Kendall after slipping to 18th in the League.

Howard Kendall Mk II – picks up partnership with Harvey after reasonable spells at Bilbao and Man City, cannot re-create the glory years of the mid-80s. Win rate 37.66%

Mike Walker – successful Colchester manager guides Norwich to third, famously beats Bayern Munich in UEFA Cup, losing to eventual winners, Inter Milan. Appointed manager of Everton where he finds himself completely out of his depth, sacked within ten months. Win rate 17.14%

Joe Royle – former player who after nine years guides Second Division Oldham into the top flight, with a League Cup Final and two FA Cup Semi-finals to boot. Appointed Everton manager, our last to win silverware. Resigned after dispute with Johnson. Win rate 39.83%

Howard Kendall Mk III – one season in charge, Everton escape relegation by a whisker. Win rate 26.19%

Walter Smith – successful Rangers manager, unable to recreate this south of the border, three consecutive bottom half finishes amidst wrangling with the Johnson. Win rate 31.55%

David Moyes – promotes Preston North End to the second tier, loses play-off final to take them into the Premier League. Steadies the ship at Everton and transforms us into very respectable top-half club, consistently challenging for Europe, breaking into the top 4 once. Losing FA Cup Finalists in 2009. Our longest serving post-war manager. Win rate 42.08%

Roberto Martinez – FA Cup winning manager with Wigan, who he also relegated. Finishes 5th in first season with record Premier League points tally, then 11th, then 12th. Sacked after rapid decline in form and relationship with players and fans. Win rate 42.7%

So – since the war we have appointed 13 managers (one of them 3 times).

• Six have been former Evertonians.

• None of them had any tangible top flight experience (unless you count Kendall Mk II and Mk III and Smith at Rangers). As for Walker (Norwich), Royle (Oldham), Martinez (Wigan), it’s hardly the stuff of dreams is it?

• We have had only three silverware winning managers since the war – Catterick, Kendall and Royle - all of whom played for the club.

• Only one post-war manager has had a win rate over 50% (Kendall Mk I)

The final statistic I think is telling. When you look at our “competition” this is the standard they set:

Wenger – had a win rate of 48.9% with Monaco, his Arsenal record is 57.2%

Guardiola – 72.47% with Barca, 75.16% with Bayern.

Mourinho – since, and including Porto, always between 62%-71% except sacked for 58% last time around at Chelsea.

Conte – 67.55% with Juventus.

LVG – 61.46% with Bayern, 60.71% with the Netherlands – sacked for 52.43% at Man Utd.

Ranieri – 61.54% with Monaco.

Koeman – 57.9% at Feyenoord

Klopp – 56.3% at Dortmund, only 44% at Liverpool but clearly improving.

Bilic – 51.65% at Besiktas

Pochettino – the exception to the rule, 38% at Southampton and 32% at Espanyol before that.

The counter argument is if you look at the great managers of the past the likes of Shankly, Clough and Busby had little or no pedigree (a bit like our own Howard Kendall), while Stein and Ferguson were successes in Scotland. The only exception to all of them might be Herbert Chapman...?

I think those days are gone now though – in the modern game you have to aim high and get someone in with a record of success in their countries top flight - someone who is a clear “winner” at the top level available to them. People may have raised their eyebrows at Ranieri’s appointment at Leicester but look at his managerial record overall and it’s still pretty good (11 honours, 46.42% career win rate).

Now, I know much of this success is because they have been at big clubs, or clubs with little competition. I also realise that most of the teams above can attract a higher calibre of manager because they have had the money, which in recent years has been denied us but things now have got to change.

We no longer should employ someone who hasn’t won anything, or have a win ratio of less than 50% – and with the TV money and Moshiri we should no longer have to.

So – who have we got in the mix (in order of career win rate)?

Cocu – 2 titles, 2 Cups, 67.11%

FDB – 4 titles, 1 Cup, 60.3%

Koeman – 3 titles, 5 Cups, 54.88%

Löw – 1 title, 2 Cups 54.6%

Pellegrini – 4 titles, 6 Cup, 51.7%

O’Neill – 4 titles, 7 Cups, 51.25%

Benitez – 3 titles, 11 Cups 50.77%

Emery – 3 Europa Leagues and a Second Division 49.5%

Bielsa – no listed honours…? 48.58%

Howe – 1 League, 46.7%

Garcia – 1 League, 1 Cup, 46.52%

Flores – 6 Cups, 45.52%

Moyes – 1 League, 1 Cup, 43.79%

Hughes – won nothing, 39.7%

I think that’s the current contenders covered.

Whatever we do we can’t revert to type and take on one of the three “P”’s (Moyes – Previous, Howe – Potential or Hughes – Player). Having said that, given our three last silverware winning managers were former players, maybe the man for the job is Bilic…? I think he’s quite happy where he is for now though.

If you were completely dispassionate about it, I think it’s also difficult to ignore Benetiz but I’ll leave that one there for people to think about… and as for Martin O'Neill, maybe once upon a time but he's not the one for us this time.

Looking at the list above it's simple for me then – invite the three Dutchmen in for interview and offer the job to the one we like the best. One of them (De Boer) I’m sure will take it if neither of the other two are interested. I know their success is down to operating in a poor league but all three have real calibre as players, have already been successful as managers and Koeman has proved that he can make the grade in the Premier League with a comparable Dutch record to the other two. All three I think will make great use of our academy, and attract the players we need to compete at the top – and I think they’ll really go for it too.

So – please Mr Moshiri – no more “Nil Satis Nisi Secundus”, let's have a bit of “Nil Satis, Nisi Optimum” moving forward and appoint the best new manager we can get.

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Reader Comments (113)

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Damian Wilde
1 Posted 25/05/2016 at 14:10:18
I see your point, Mike, but I think you could have been more succinct, quite long winded this.

Agree we need to think big.

Mike Green
2 Posted 25/05/2016 at 14:15:52
Apologies Damian - you're right, I was just going to post on the "Eddie Howe" thread that that would be typical of our past performance when recruiting managers but it got out of hand. :D

After submitting I noticed I'd left out Simeone, Hiddink and there must be managers all over the place who aren't in the conventional running who could fit the bill so it could've been longer.

Fair comment though, agreed.

Jay Wood
3 Posted 25/05/2016 at 14:16:27
Doffs cap in admiration for the research gone into this.

Some interesting data that could be used to inform the club's selection process.

Jack Mason
4 Posted 25/05/2016 at 14:19:25
Good breakdown Mike.

Personally my choice would be Emery if he wanted the job. But if either DeBoer or Koeman got the job I'd be right behind them. Pellegrini has to be seriously considered too.

Benitez shouldn't ever be in consideration for a role at Everton Football Club. Same applies to Moyes.

Brian Williams
5 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:07:59
Can never understand why some TW's feel the need to "have a go" when somebody's made the effort to put something factual and interesting together.

It's not an English language GCSE and unless someone's being offensive there's no need for put downs or unnecessary critique.

Like my old mother used to say "If you can't say something positive, say nowt."

Tony Draper
6 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:14:36
Compelling stuff Mike, OK so it isn't a single paragraph, but to cover so many bases that's almost a necessary evil.

Does lend another form of weight behind our remaining contenders.

Let's hope that our hirers n firers have such rational, comparative information available for those shortlisted for auditions..... erm interviews.

Mike Green
7 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:30:23
No problem gents, I did it for my own amusement as much as anything.

I think my point, in short, is our history is littered with us going for the cheap, easy, option. We've struck lucky once with Kendall, I think Catterick was more of a known quantity, but we cant expect that approach to potentially ever pay off again.

It's time to go big, or go home.

Steve Alderson
8 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:32:36
Rafa Beneathus is not an option now. I hope he doesn't make us wish we had not dismissed him.
Eugene Ruane
9 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:46:42
Brian (5) - Surely that should have been 'say nothing'
Damian Wilde
10 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:48:53
Brian, I agree. On reflection, Mike I was unduly harsh. It's a well thought out piece. I've been feeling frustrated today with the silence from the board and as the rest of us am desperate to hear who the new manager is. My impatience and frustrations spilled out onto you. I was rude, please accept my apology.

Here's hoping for an anouncement soon, can't handle it!

Mike Green
11 Posted 25/05/2016 at 15:53:47
Don't be daft Damian, I bored myself with it at one point. I think we're all in the same boat, its what drove me to write it - the vacuum.

No offence taken :D

Damian Wilde
12 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:00:55
Cheers Mike. It's a shame Kenwright et al don't read the pages and get a move on!
Tony Draper
13 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:06:45
Plenty of us getting fractious during the wait.

But, surely, better a few days, weeks or even a month of that than a couple of wasted seasons ?

We really have a bloody exciting opportunity right now.
As frustrating as this feels, hopefully the outcome, appointment and future performance make this a moments pain for SERIOUS gains !

Ged Simpson
16 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:09:49
You watch, Moyes will win the league with Watford and we have a 60% man! Still it passes time as we wait, Mike.
Mark Fitzgerald
17 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:11:09
Mike, good to see that the outcome of your research (or vacuum resisting exercise) more or less supports the general consensus that it's the likes of DeBoer, Koeman, Pellegrini, that the club should be interviewing.

This next appointment should represent a more ambitious signal of intent from the club by announcing a manager with some proper pedigree.

When you look at your list above it does seem to be common sense to focus on the candidates with title credentials & high wining percentages.

Let's hope that the powers that be are of a similar opinion.

Fredrick Parchment
18 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:16:27
Mike, thanks for the article. I, like everyone else is pondering who is going to manage our team next term? My choice is simple. David Unsworth.

Our last two of anything came from ex-players. Do you think Unsworth would've allowed a performance like that at Anfield and elsewhere during the last campaign?

Besides, our last game of the season was enough for me to allow him to start next season as our manager. Who knows the youth squad better?

More importantly longevity, I want a manager for the long haul. And young enough to build a dynasty here to surpass Man Utd and SAF. To me that makes perfect sense.

Rhino bulls Everton to the top. Onwards and upwards.

Michael Coffey
19 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:20:32
Harsh on Gordon lee. I thought he'd taken Newcastle to the top 6 , and in any case after a season and a half of mid table under billy Bingham it was he who restored us to 3rd and 4th finishes , a final and a semi .

Didn't we almost sign up Bobby Robson at some point ?

Alan J Thompson
20 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:22:14
Statistics show that 50% of people who throw themselves off tall buildings change their minds half way down.
David Midgley
21 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:31:40
Didn't Duncan McKenzie call Gordon Lee the crowd dispersal officer at Goodison .His football was so dire.
James Hughes
22 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:41:06
Mike, I love that post but thought it lacked supporting evidence. :)

The most startling thing it shows,for me at least, is our lack of ambition. The attitude of , 'well they've done ok so give them the job'

So in this modern day and age lets think big and go for someone who knows how to win. This might work, it might not, but got to better than going second rate – at least in the short term.

Mark Melton
23 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:51:30
Interesting to see that Martinez had a slightly better win rate than Moyes. Proof that DM coming back is not what we need.
Neil Quinn
24 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:56:00
David @21. Lee's football was dire at times but at least we had the pleasure of Thomas & Latchford. What would we give for the goals produced by those two, now?
Mike Green
25 Posted 25/05/2016 at 16:58:35
You're right Mark but Martinez's win rate is bolstered by a great first season (55%) and some decent cup runs - his league win rate in his final season was 29%. Moyes's numbers are taken over 11 seasons so a bit more reliable - not that I want him back mind...
David Chait
26 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:17:26
Very nice spin on a much debated topic! I have looked at those win rates but hadnt taken the time to do any real comparisons.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with this! Completely agree with your reasoning and conclusion.

You might have got bored at one point, but I definitely didn't! Haha...

Sid Logan
27 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:23:47
Mike, a good read.

Ignore comments on it being long-winded - like we've got something better to do!

Whoever we get with what is likely to be available to us by the time we get round to it is always going to be a gamble. For me the 3ish key criteria:-

1. Must have managed successfully (top 4 finishes) and consistently in the primary league for his country. The risk here is there are not many leagues which have the overall quality of the premier league so some will say that it was an easy league to do well in.

2. A high win ratio (at least 50%) in all games managed.

3. Some anecdotal stuff such a popular with players, drives for a high level of fitness, likes forward movement and plays with pace.

Any criteria must be measured to ensure it would exclude Martinez, Moyes, Hughes and other managers who've achived little.

The way things are looking right now with a number of favoured options appearing to drop off the table with every passing day I'd go for Frank de Boer. Give him a 3 year contract and instruct Kenwight nor to become his best mate.

We need someone soon so that the team can be assessed early and rebuilt as needed.

Duncan McDine
28 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:28:31
Good bit of research Mike and a really interesting read, but I feel your stats have been displayed in a way to strengthen your point. You're not a politician are you?!!

For instance, Walter Smith probably had around 70% or so win rate before he joined us... And he hardly set the world alight at Everton. I would say the Scottish Prem and Dutch league aren't too dissimilar in terms of quality and the fact that just a couple of teams win every year!

With our history of Dutch players (all flops in my eyes), I'd be quite nervous if we ended up with a Dutch manager.

Daniel A Johnson
29 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:29:15
Pellegrini is a proven Premier League title winner and a Champions League Semi-Finalist. His CV blows Frank de Boer's Dutch record out of the water, yet no-one seems to want him.

I think he did very well with the way he handled things and kept Man City in the top 4 and the Champions League Semi-Final considering he was told he was being replaced at the start of the season and therefore had no real authority over the players any more. He also beat Klopp at Wembley, don't forget, in the Cup Final.

He's based in the area and is available / out of contract. It's a no-brainer for me. Koeman doesn't want to come, and De Boer is a risk.

Underneath the calm grey exterior of Pellgrini is a bloody good manager.

Oliver Molloy
30 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:37:18
Mike,
I congratulate you for the time and research it undoubtedly took to put your piece together.

It always amazes me when Evertonians take the time and dedication to write stuff that is always a good read.

No matter if you agree with the author or not I think all of us that visit this forum on a regular basis would agree we are blessed on ToffeeWeb that we have fans who contribute in many different ways.

Whoever we appoint I feel it will be tough first season – there is a lot of work to do with this team.

Sid Logan
31 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:39:20
Daniel (#29),

He's been a great manager in his time but unfortunately, like some of the great players we've bought on the cheap – they're past their shelf life.

They no longer have the energy and drive they once had. I think that's how many, rightly or wrongly, see Pellegrini. He's a nice guy but when you see him interviews he no longer looks convincing!

Daniel A Johnson
32 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:42:43
Sid 31

We had a young hungry manager who spouted bullshit and was out of his depth.

Pellegrini is a proven manager and won trophies at every clubs he's managed. He may not be the sexy big flamboyant name everyone seems to want, but it would be foolish to over look his ability and suitability for the job.

Jim Bailey
33 Posted 25/05/2016 at 17:49:22
Good stuff Mike.

Agree with Dan@29, just because some managers go bonkers on the touchline doesn't mean they are any better than someone calmer and quieter. Out of the names left in the race and all things considered, he would be my choice.

Sid Logan
34 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:04:09
Daniel, as I said earlier with doors apparently closing by the day I wouldn't rule him out.

What worries me far more is that Moyes seems to be the only Manager so far interviewed – although my daughter's just told me that Pellegrini has also been interviewed! You can only guess at how Kenwight must be bending Moshiri's ear to bring his best mate Moyes back. For me, a huge mistake if we do.

We need a right decision and we need it soon!

Mike Green
35 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:06:37
Duncan #28 - now I am offended, a politician! :D You're absolutely right though. Martin O'Neill's 75% win rate at Celtic does exactly the same thing, which is I why I'd discount him.

I just think when you take into account FdB's, Cocu's and Koeman's pedigrees as players and records they've got so far (they can only beat what's put in front of them to an extent) then they are serious contenders. It's not like Ajax and PSV are TNS and Whitby after all....

If we want a "been there, seen it, done it, bought the t-shirt" man, then Daniel #29 is also probably right – in which case the contenders are Pelligrini, Hiddink, Beilsa and Benitez if he was still available.

Thanks Oliver, Sid, David, James....

Colin Glassar
36 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:11:27
Daniel I'm with you. Pellegrini won't be jumping up and down like the clown across the park but he'll set up the team to win.

Mike, great and grim reading there. God, we've had some shite managers. Billy Bingham was the worst of the lot IMO.

Eugene Kearney
37 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:12:15
Another working day gone and no word of any more "interviews" and doors are indeed closing.

There are doubts if Frank de Boer would have the experience necessary for the Premier League and would he be capable of "outwitting" the big names (managers' names) that he'd find himself up against. Or so I read.

Maybe that's why Mr Moshiri is hesitating there....

That's also maybe why it is looking more and more likely that it will someone from Chile with a name beginning with P....?

Maybe.....

Jay Harris
38 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:15:32
Good post Mike,
giving us another angle on what is becoming a drawn out process.

I always favoured Emery but it looks like he wont be available.

Cocu hasnt been mentioned so you would have to assume he is not being considered, for that matter include Tuchel too.

I just wonder if we are being aggressive and tempting enough although our supporters need to realise not being in Europe is a big putoff for many.

I believe the two most important qualities are:-

1. Must be able to get respect from ALL the players.

2. Must be tactically adept and flexible.

Oliver Molloy
39 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:16:51
I said on another thread the other day that Pellegrini was being spoken about as the man to get the job from Everton players in ROI squad.

I was told this by someone working in the ROI squad and travelling with them to the Euros. Could be crap, I know, but he reckons this what the Everton players are suggesting.

Brian Williams
40 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:21:49
Damian. Hats off for the apology, appreciate it. I can understand your frustration. I think we're all feeling the same way to be honest.

Having said that I believe (in this instance) no news is good news. I'm hoping that Mr Moshiri is simply biding his time (for one reason or another) rather than rushing in.

I keep telling myself "Come on, he had the balls to sack Martinez so trust him on this one too." I'd think someone would HAVE to be in place before the Euros start!!

Sid Logan
41 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:29:25
Just had a thought which is 50% frightening.

I wonder whether anyone at the club thinking of a Pellegrini/Moyes combination?

Jay Wood
42 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:37:13
Colin @ 36

"we've had some shite managers. Billy Bingham was the worst of the lot IMO."

Even though he came close to winning the title, the football played under Bingham was truly grim. It was best summed up in a match report I recall from a 1-0 away win at Derby's Baseball ground, notorious for it's absence of the green stuff and being a mud pile.

I can't recall the reporter or the newsy, but I do recall the following in reference to the half time interval of a game void of anything closely resembling football:

"As the mud splattered players left the field at the interval, the groundsmen emerged to probe and prod the remaining sods..."

Trevor Peers
43 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:41:16
Can you just picture the scene, a presser is called at GP for an extraordinary announcement of huge importance. In walks our beloved leader BK blue-scented handkerchief at the ready.

"I'd like to introduce our new manager," he says. "I'm proud to present our first and only choice, we never even considered anyone else – of course it's DAVID MOYES!!!! Welcome home."

It's going to happen, god help us – everybody else has fucked us off.

Sid Logan
44 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:46:01
Trevor,

Should that happen I would suggest it would be time for a riot!

Colin Glassar
45 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:47:00
Stop it Trevor, please stop it!! The idea of him returning is quite frankly, stomach churning.
Mike Green
46 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:49:13
"....ably assisted by.......Steve Round and Phil Neville!"

Picking up Fredericks #18 point how about Bielsa and Unsworth - "El Loco and The Rhino".......?

Paul Hesketh
47 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:55:16
Very good read Mike and well put together...

Am I alone thinking that Pellegrini never 'Won' the league? The Scum lost it (Never get tired saying that)... and yes he has also won the capital one cup (Also against the scum)... My point is ... Do we go for someone like him and most likely get some of City's cast offs on very high wages or Frank... Who seems very keen on coming to the blues...

He is a winner, okay the league is not the strongest but he has won the league on a few occasions... He is young and hopefully hungry and ambitious to turn us into a mediocre side to a winning mentality side who doesn't bottle it in the big occasions... I have been praying that we don't go to DM!! But my fear that BK loves him and will play it safe!!
Garry Corgan
48 Posted 25/05/2016 at 18:59:41
I'm truly sorry to post what might seem like pure speculation but I've just heard from a club employee (admittedly someone who does NOT have inside knowledge, but definitely one or two steps above a steward) that the belief amongst the mid-level staff is that a deal with Pellegrini has been done.

It could be absolutely baseless but I can definitely vouch for the source.

Mike Green
49 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:06:23
Garry #48 - could be true, he's a qualified civil engineer so maybe they're going to double him up on the ground move committee and save a few quid :)
William Cartwright
50 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:09:14
Mike; ignore Damian, he just doesn't appreciate non-lazy journalism!
Sid Logan
51 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:10:15
These rumours have a basis. When you work in an organisation word travels fast.

I know we have one or two on these site who hint at being 'in the know' but my feeling is Garry's rumour could well turn in to fact. I would be happier with this than many other options! Let it be!

Colin Glassar
52 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:11:02
Why are you sorry Gary? We all hear things and wish to share them. If it is indeed Pellegrini then let's get behind him and wish him the best.

My take on him is it will be a relatively short term appointment (2 years max) while we challenge for a top 4 place and move into a new stadium. He will be there to lay solid foundations.

Mike Green
53 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:15:25
"Pellegrini has won national leagues in four different countries."

At Real Madrid "He amassed a total of 96 points, a club record.."

"The title winning season was also noted for goal scoring prowess with Manchester City scoring 151 goals in all competitions - an English football record."

Record

Universidad Católica
Copa Chile (1): 1995
Copa Interamericana (1): 1993

LDU Quito
Serie A (1): 1999
San Lorenzo
Primera División (1): 2000–01
Copa Mercosur (1): 2001

River Plate
Primera División (1): 2002–03

Villarreal
UEFA Intertoto Cup (1): 2004

Manchester City
Premier League (1): 2013–14
Football League Cup (2): 2013–14, 2015–16

Dan Davies
54 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:17:10
I've stuck up for Pellegrini on different threads the past couple of days saying some ToffeeWebbers were being disrespectful of his record as a manager.

Preferring to pick on the way he looks or the way he talks, his manner. Blokes a decent manager and after reading this article I'm even more sure he would do a good job with us.

Alan Peake
55 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:35:09
Please a big no to Pellegrini, as I've posted before, I now run a social club in Manchester, which has a massive City support and all their criticisms of Pellegrini over the last 2 years, mirror the concerns we had with RM.

Another nice man I'm sure, but obviously no motivational skill. Just look at the insipid performance in the second leg against Real Madrid, this would be a major backward step for Everton FC.
Sid Logan
56 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:54:00
I would like to see Pellegrini with a young energetic coach but I hope no one at the club thinks that could be Moyes!
Phil Martin
57 Posted 25/05/2016 at 19:57:23
@Alan - so a manager who's won every domestic honour in the last few years would take (no trophy in 20 years) Everton backwards?

Just think about that for a moment.

Tony Draper
58 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:02:29
I recall that some ancient fanzine article asked,
"Why do we have a pencil stub on our badge ?"
The response was along the lines....
"It's actually the entrance to the crypt where Gordon Lee's remains are kept during daylight".

Feel free to alternate Lee/Moyes, all the same

Paul Hesketh
59 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:06:35
No to Pellegrini please! Everton need to be much braver than this, it is true he has managed Man City and won silverware but, if you really analysis it, he only won the league because the other lot across the park lost it! He to me, seems in the same 'mold' as Roberto – Nice guy and the media like him.

We have a real big chance to be brave here and get in FdB as soon as possible and let's start getting rid of the insipid type of players and start to buy Winners all across the park.

I, like a lot of proud Evertonians, have had enough of Managers that say the right things but never deliver. I am old enough to remember the 'Good old days' in the '80s and unfortunately a new generation of fans have grown up not seeing this proud club win anything!

If Bill is a true blue, then he will understand our pain!

Tony Abrahams
61 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:30:29
Agree with Alan. Pelligrini's Man City, whilst obviously better, just reminded me of Everton, under Martinez.

They never got flustered, just kept on playing the same way, and never really struck me as a team with much passion.

His track record is very good, but I just think Everton, need more pragmatism in their team, after some of the slow, soulless football, we have watched over the last two seasons.

I said it on another thread, but the thing I want Everton's next manager to bring into the club, is pride in the shirt, and a team with plenty of fight and bottle.

Alan Peake
62 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:37:36
Phil @57 Yes, Phil he would take us backwards, he is RM only a lot older, but not a lot wiser. How much money did he spend on defenders for City, and yet they still can't defend under his coaching? Does this ring a bell: once Kompany and his organisational skills were lost to him, most of the time the defence was a shambles, only the attacking prowess of Aguero and latterly De Bruyne saved them in games.

Again does this ring a bell with Everton and Lukaku's goals? I respect your point about his trophy success while at City, but would you not expect that with the bottomless purse that he has had.
Dennis Ng
63 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:46:25
Mike, I want the best we can get but judging a manager's work can be subjective, adjusting for transfer budget, strength of team when he took over, improvement while he is/was at the helm.

Conte was picked up by Juve after his work at Siena, Tuchel by BVB because of Mainz. The win record was not excellent by any standard but to the fans of those clubs, these 2 worked miracles. Similarly for Emery where he worked miracles not just in lower leagues but also for a giant in Valencia.

Emery would be my pick, I wish Moshiri would just throw good money at him to see if he can be tempted. Had our current situation be 2 years from now, we might have enough evidence on Howe to see if he can make it count in the big leagues.

Until we hear official releases, we're guessing who's coming or not, except Favre who joined Nice. Hopefully it would be one of the hotter properties, but I think most are ready for FdB or Pellegrini.

Martin Mason
64 Posted 25/05/2016 at 20:58:14
Great article Mike, very illuminating
Dick Fearon
65 Posted 25/05/2016 at 21:55:32
Other than Moyes I do not know a player of ours that has played under any Mikes list of possibilities

Shows what a mob of inbreds we have.

Andy Crooks
66 Posted 25/05/2016 at 22:32:32
A really good article, Mike. I think, though that stats can sometimes mask what went on. If I recall right Billy Bingham signed Rioch and McKenzie on the one day. That seems to me to be fucking bold.
Also, I believe that Walter Smith saved Everton. Having said that, I was, and remain an admirer of Gordon Lee
Phil Martin
67 Posted 25/05/2016 at 22:37:41
@Alan 62
"he is RM only a lot older, but not a lot wiser"

He is RM but with titles in many different countries, many domestic medals, experience in high profile jobs, and a history of taking clubs to the latter stages of the CL.

Jeff Armstrong
68 Posted 25/05/2016 at 22:42:16
Andy, Lee hated McKenzie in his team and sold him to Chelsea. He was more dour than Dour Davey. Bingham bought Rod Belfit,.and Joe Harper, sold big Joe, and Howard

Let's face it, we've had one decent spell since 1970, and a succession of mediocre managers.
Dan Davies
69 Posted 25/05/2016 at 22:50:12
I'm not married to the idea of Pellegrini but to say it would be a backward step after the success Everton have had the past twenty odd years is just mad.

How would it be a backward step? If Everton went any more backward than the past twenty odd years we'd be championship material!

Somebody has been hanging around City fans too much I'm guessing.

Mike Green
70 Posted 25/05/2016 at 23:13:10
Andy #66 - you disappoint me! I was waiting for the challenge on Martin O'Neill! Maybe some other time. I err to your greater wisdom on Bingham and Lee, and yes, if nothing else Smith got Johnson out.
David Ellis
71 Posted 26/05/2016 at 02:31:30
Mike – great OP. However I don't think we can read too much into win ratios – there are too many other variables in play (which you acknowledge).
I don't know much about Pellegrini but I think he under performed at City. With the money at his disposal he should have done better – which is why he's being replaced.

Frank De Boer looks good... but we have concerns about his adherence to Total Football which looks like it has been surpassed as tactical best practice. I don't want him to learn this lesson slowly at Everton.

But having said that both of them are top managers and would be a step forward.

David Ellis
72 Posted 26/05/2016 at 02:38:07
As for past managers... I started watching in the Bingham era, just missing out on Catterick. Gordon Lee was a huge improvement (initially) having done well at lowly Newcastle, and got us to 3rd (should have been 2nd) and a League Cup final.

So I always had a soft spot for him, even when the fans turned against him and the form of the team collapsed. I used to argue with my brother about the merits of Duncan MacKenzie. A great entertainer (and holder of 10 O-Levels!) – but ran sideways a lot! My brother was a fan but I always wanted someone who would give more to the team overall.

When Kendall took over we were in a terrible situation, as was football generally. Attendances were down, stadiums decrepit, matches were dangerous. Clubs generally were really struggling.

Kieran Kinsella
73 Posted 26/05/2016 at 03:12:51
Believe it or not, the first game I ever watched was the Heysel game. I'd already been indoctrinated into Everton at that time but that just happened to be the first game I saw on TV as a kid.

The first Everton game I can vividly remember was the 1986 final. I assumed Everton would be good forever and took Philip Carter's word for it that Colin Harvey was best man for the job. Oh well.

Shaun Murphy
74 Posted 26/05/2016 at 04:30:45
Mike's done more due diligence than the board (pre Moshiri hopefully). Thanks for the post – most people will appreciate it.

We should go with De Boer imo and a director of football who has no loyalty to players who who need moving on.

Alan Peake
75 Posted 26/05/2016 at 07:33:02
Phil @67 Like I said I respect your point about the trophy winning, all I a trying to get over is that if Pellegrini comes to Everton, do not expect anything different than we have had for the last 3 years.

What I've seen in the last 3 years has been some of the worst I've experienced watching Everton ( its 50 years since my 1st game and I've been a season ticket holder for the last 38 years), its not just in the poor performances but the total bad atmosphere that has surrounded the club, players and us fans.

So please understand that I don't want this to continue, I would love to be made to eat my words if Pellegrini does come here and make us a success, but I just can't see it, I think the club needs a manager to come in and give it a good shake up, we have some good youngsters coming through, so there is something to build on. Let's hope the new manager whoever it is comes in and makes us great again COYB
Jonathan Fletcher
76 Posted 26/05/2016 at 08:47:05
I saw in the cup against Man Utd how good he is.

Can't wait for him to go, the arrogant prick.

Tony Abrahams
77 Posted 26/05/2016 at 09:17:13
Jonathan, out of courtesy is that Lukaku, you are talking about?

The sooner he's gone the better, if he can get his head out the door on the way out that is.

Michael Coffey
78 Posted 26/05/2016 at 10:30:00
Jeff 68 you do billy Bingham a disservice ! I'm pretty sure a declining catterick acquired harper and belfitt. Howard went to assist the latchford deal. Big joe was sold only after Bingham had tried him up front with Bob and found it couldn't work.
Jim Hourigan
79 Posted 26/05/2016 at 12:02:14
Fascinating stuff Mike and as with all statistics they can be interpreted in many ways, often to suit ones own view, rather than dispassionately as additional information.

From my own point of view I would not favour Pellegrini for a number of reasons.

First ,is he still 'hungry' to win or has he reached an age where he can take it or leave it and is the answer reflected in the way he reacted after the announcement of his demise by Man City – dignity or indifference? I for one think he no loner has the desire or the passion to take on a 3/5yr challenge.

Secondly, he had the largest war chest since the Russian entered Chelsea, and still could not beat Leicester to the title or win anything other than the League Cup – yes, more than us but, with 10 times the amount of money, is that a good return?

Finally look at some of his buys – Stirling, Ottamendi, Demichelles, Mangala, Bony – how many would we take, even now with our current squad? Like other posters I have a number of Man City friends and their view can be summarised by ' nice man, average manager who can't defend and wastes an awful lot of money' very similar to RM without the money!!!

FdB for me, hungry to make a name, knowledgeable, contacts in the game, footballing brain and a winner.

Eddy Bernard
80 Posted 26/05/2016 at 14:08:53
Good article Mike must have took a bit of time putting together, out of interest what was the win rate for Colin Harvey as I cant see it?
Jay Wood
81 Posted 26/05/2016 at 14:19:32
Colin Harvey had a 42.4% win ratio Eddy.
Eddy Bernard
82 Posted 26/05/2016 at 14:29:02
Cheers, Jay.

On a par with Moyes & Martinez which is not a great stat. I always felt Harvey was a bit unlucky as a manager but what a great player.

John Raftery
83 Posted 26/05/2016 at 14:32:46
Michael 78 You are right. Both Belfitt and Harper were signed by Catterick in his final season.

On a point of accuracy in Mike's article, Catterick not Moyes was our longest serving post-war manager. Catterick was appointed in April 1961 and served until April 1973. Moyes was appointed in March 2002 and served until May 2013.

I agree with the thrust of the article. We should aim to get the best but the key words are ....'we can get'.

Mike Green
84 Posted 26/05/2016 at 14:48:22
John #83 - after submitting the article I re-read it and saw I'd put "in twelve years at Everton" and thought "hang on....." Well spotted.

To be honest the whole thing didn't take that long and was more me thinking out loud, there are no doubt errors everywhere. It's all very one dimensional but what it has given me is an idea of who I definitely DON'T want - which, unfortunately is all of the British options - add Ryan Giggs to that list and it gets worse! I'll make an exception for Big Joe and Rhino (see Frederick #18) but that's it I think.

Brian Denton
85 Posted 26/05/2016 at 15:50:03
Nil Satis Nisi SecunduM or Nemo Satis Nisi Secundus.

Just passing the time......

Peter Howard
86 Posted 26/05/2016 at 20:17:28
Paul (59)

So, did Ranieri win the league or did Spurs lose it?

Discuss.

Trevor Peers
87 Posted 26/05/2016 at 21:44:42
It seems the identity of our new manager, to those working in certain parts of the media, is already common knowledge. It won't be who we wanted, not even our second or third choice.

The people that really matter US the supporter's, have absolutely no idea who that is. This is such a bad signal for those looking for a change in how the club is run, to most of us it stinks of BK.

It looks like business as usual, smoke and mirrors the Everton way, failure.
Why has it taking so long to make a decision ?
Who ever we pick will be a gamble, there are manager's out there with a proven track record of winning games.

Just have the bottle to pick one and back him financially, the waiting game is over,

Colin Glassar
88 Posted 26/05/2016 at 21:56:59
It's not HIM is it Tony? Please, tell me it's not HIM. I'd rather stay managerless if that's the case.
Mike Hughes
89 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:07:01
The latest on PP:

Emery 11/4
Pellegrini 7/2
DM 5/1

I hope the front two are 19 lengths clear in horse racing terms.

Colin Glassar
90 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:20:00
Mike, in racing terms, I hope that last horse is knobbled.
Mike Green
91 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:22:46
Mike - Moyes 4/1 with Coral now a point behind the three main contenders Pelligrini, FDB and Emery, who they all have at 3's.

Moyes simply cannot happen, its punters putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Isn't it? Surely...

...unless BK has got his calculator out and said to Moshiri "I gave him £10m a year and he gave me £15m back...", plugs in Moshiri's planned investment, presses "=", turns it towards Moshiri who's face lights up in GOLD like the villain at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark...

"GOLD Farhad Darling, the mans pure GOLD...."

Nah... surely not...

Doug Harris
92 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:31:41
Trevor (87), how can anyone of us know who would be the best manager for us?

Everyone out there is a gamble, did we ever think that Howard Kendall would do it? He did though ....
Mike Hughes
93 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:36:20
I'm hoping Moshiri is a real hard nut of a businessman: ambition, vision and action. Surely that would rule out any donkeys? Thoroughbreds only need apply (ie, EFC is Cheltenham or Aintree NOT Hexham or Ffos Las)

ps: Just watching the local news and the bus driver who won the lottery is buying season tickets for EFC. Good luck to him.


Colin Glassar
94 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:47:42
This is all fun and exciting but there's a dark shadow on the horizon. A waif-like spectre with ginger hair lurking in the background...
Tony Hill
95 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:48:53
That's quite right, Doug, and that's where the hope lies - no matter what happens.
Phil Walling
96 Posted 26/05/2016 at 22:58:01
BK, RE and Woods vote Moyes. Farhad's proxy votes Emery. Then Farhad throws his first strop.

And the winner is...................................?

Finn Taylor
97 Posted 26/05/2016 at 23:03:55
Would you be suprised if it was actually Moshiri that wanted Moyes in to steady the ship and not just BK... because to be frank... no one knows a single thing at all on any thread about what is going on.

It's all guess work about a person who no one on the site has ever spoke to, ever met... the custodians will appoint who they want and thanks to the Sky money, what we think or want, will not matter one jot.

Colin Glassar
98 Posted 26/05/2016 at 23:10:11
Does Moshiri have a yacht in Monaco? Any self respecting billionaire has a yacht on the Med where he does his private deals. I hope Moshiri has been interviewing a few candidates on the sly without even telling BPB and then just texts him, "Bill, it's done. Our next manager is......."

Meanwhile, on lake Windermere Chairman Bill is wining and dining David on his dinghy promising him that everything is going fabulously well and that he, Billy Boy, has Moshiri in his back pocket.

Mike Green
99 Posted 26/05/2016 at 23:14:42
"Bill and Dave's Excellent Adventure"

Coming to a Football Ground near you.....

Mike Hughes
100 Posted 26/05/2016 at 23:48:53
Colin, we're mixing our metaphors brilliantly here.

Horse racing, donkeys, thoroughbreds, yachts, dinghies, Monaco, the Lake District.

I just hope that Moshiri is Muhammad Ali to the past board's Audley Harrison.

Or Roger Federer to their Buster Mottram.

Or Frankel to their Neddy the donkey on Blackpool beach.
(No offence to Neddy, you do a great job.)

Marty MacDonald
101 Posted 27/05/2016 at 00:47:57
Mike thanks for putting in the work on this. I've been very much against FDB mainly because of his Martinez like rigid possession game but when you look at the statistics he compares pretty favourably to the other candidates.

If he turns out to be hired because he's the only one who actually wants the job I won't be too deflated. Your article's also changed my mind about my number one fantasy choice. Perhaps Mark Hughes is not quite as good as I thought. :-)
John Pierce
102 Posted 27/05/2016 at 05:01:45
It's a well worn path Mike you've rightly decided to retrace so to speak, our history of hiring is close to home and often cheap. Perhaps the mind set is in dire need of a shake up.

I have to say I think I want a nutter in charge. To qualify I need an action man, energetic type. So Pellegrini will not do. The board are doing themselves no favours in taking their own sweet time, with so many clubs moving forward, alas we look far behind the rest.

I'm hoping for a left field appointment, but I fear disappointment lurking. I'd love Moshiri to throw the money at someone crazy, like Tuchel for example... but again that nagging millstone which is now becoming the chairman tugs away at my head knowing it won't happen.

For many this is a massive crossroads for our club, if this time we don't show the ambition that has been leached from us since the late '80s I fear we will again miss the boat, like we did in the early '90s.

Feels like we are sleepwalking into a poor appointment....

Phil Walling
103 Posted 27/05/2016 at 06:02:32
Looks like Moshiri is 'going all Arsenal' by recruiting Marc Overmars as his Director of Football and relying on his favourite footballer to make the big decision for him.

Better that than listening to Kenwright, me thinks

Tony Draper
104 Posted 27/05/2016 at 07:08:09
Paul @59
Thanks so very much for cheering me up. I've just stubbed me toe on the end of the bed, but you reminding me of "Density's Child" Slippy G, singlehandedly gifting away the EPL has brought a smile to my face.
Tony Abrahams
105 Posted 27/05/2016 at 07:26:30
Colin 98, Kenwrights dingy? He's just made how much out of Everton, this super chairman?
Peter Mills
106 Posted 27/05/2016 at 08:47:55
I'm lagging behind a bit. From what I read here the press know who it is but are not saying, so does that mean our new manager's initials are PJS and he likes to play 3 at the back?
Phil Walling
107 Posted 27/05/2016 at 09:58:55
Following the Overmars story, De Boer is back as favourite at 2/1. Anything that distances BK from decision making must be good, eh ?
Gary Ashworth
108 Posted 27/05/2016 at 11:20:23
Another factor I think the board should consider, is a manager with European experience. Martinez got us into the Europa League in his first season, but we struggled to juggle the priorities of both Europe and our domestic performances. As a result, we dropped from 5th to 11th – Martinez had no experience of managing in Europe. Thankfully the managers who seem to be the favourites, all have this experience – and it really is important.

Whoever gets the job will naturally aim to qualify for a European competition, we need to cope with both competitions. A manager with this experience will know what type of team to build, who we need on the bench (should players get injured or generally need to be rested) and which U21s are capable of stepping up to this level.

Eddie Dunn
109 Posted 27/05/2016 at 11:56:19
Interesting article Mike - I was also surprised at Martinez's win rate, but the good first season and cup runs help. Statistics can be misleading, there is a good programme on Radio 4 called "More or less" which gives a good angle all this type of thing -well worth a listen.

Perhaps a points per game rating would be more revealing.

Mike Green
110 Posted 27/05/2016 at 16:55:00
Eddie - just looking at Martinez's stats for his 175 games at Wigan.

Win rate 29.1%, points per game 1.14.

Here endeth the lesson, as they say...

Mike Dixon
111 Posted 27/05/2016 at 20:10:32
Mike @1. Let's just hope that the board puts as much effort into the appointment.

Scary to see Mike Walker's name again, I had just about banished the memories !

I hope that the 'abyss' that we currently appear to be in , is soon a distant memory, and we are all on a legal high with news of our new leader.

Nervous.....absolutely.

Graham Hodgson
112 Posted 28/05/2016 at 01:55:12
The only reason we haven't appointed a manager as yet must mean that the potential candidate is still involved with their current club matches. Scanning what is going on right now leaves only two possibilities, one Diego Simeone of Atletico or Zinedine Zidane of Real.

Can't see ZZ moving to the north of England, so the means an announcement of Diego Simeone will be made on Monday as the new manager of our wonderful club - it's obvious when you really think about it - isn't it?

Oh, and for the record, his stats while managing Atletico since 2011 are:

Games (259) Win (164) Draw (51) Lost (44) Win % (63.32).

I'll take 63.32% anytime!

Mike Green
113 Posted 28/05/2016 at 08:46:24
And his points per game are 2.1 Graham. It's never going to happen but it'd send shockwaves through European football if it did, can you imagine....?
Alan J Thompson
114 Posted 28/05/2016 at 11:13:09
Mike(#113); Can I imagine? No, but I can dream.
Graham Hodgson
115 Posted 29/05/2016 at 02:06:54
Oooops! When I posted at #112 that “Scanning what is going on right now leaves only two possibilities, one Diego Simeone of Atletico or Zinedine Zidane of Real”, I hadn’t done my homework properly. There was still Steve Bruce (Hull) and Carlos Carvalhal (Sheff Wed) involved with their clubs.

Ah well, it looks like Steve Bruce – God help us!

Mike Green
116 Posted 14/06/2016 at 11:39:38
Well - I'll have to stand by my words now...

"Looking at the list above it's simple for me then – invite the three Dutchmen in for interview and offer the job to the one we like the best."

That's what we've effectively done so no complaints from me,

Good luck Ronald - here's to a great future!

COYB.


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