Two steps forward, three steps back

Last week he made it clear he would not compromise. There is a lethargy about the team an arrogance about the coach and some of the players that is toxic. Our league position is shameful and elimination to city would surely test his integrity and force a resignation. The way we started yesterday was astounding and indicative that something is badly wrong.

I hated RM last season for how boring he made us and I hate him this season for his lack of defensive mindedness.

I think most of us a fed up to the back teeth with repeating the unalterable truth that the problems the team suffers from pretty much most of the time are down to Martinez and his footballing philosophy.

His philosophy when combined with his personality produces a team with no fight, no bite and crucially no will to win at all cost. The latter emotion would probably be anathema to Martinez.

I am convinced that there is little point talking about him changing because I believe he's incapable of it. Behind his nice guy image – which is probably justified – I think there is a huge ego and therefore a ingrained stubborn streak. Being a nice guy and possessing a huge ego are not incompatible. Flawed philosophy + stubbornness + lack of ruthlessness = eventual relegation.

Evertonians had better get used to him being around for the long haul unless something close to disaster happens.

He has made sure he has endeared himself to everyone at the Club from the Chairman down. He also adheres to Michael Corleone's policy of keeping you friends close and your enemies (or potential enemies in his case) closer.

So we have quite a few former players who often appeared in the media, in one form or another, and could well have been speaking out right now. They are Joe Royle, Graham Sharp, Graham Stuart and Ian Snodin who are employed by the club in one capacity or another.

No disrespect to them because why wouldn't they take the jobs offered. I know that sound like I'm painting the manager as Machiavellian but I've held this view for some time not just during the current heightened levels of dissatisfaction with him.

So as I said above unless there's a real chance of relegation he's with us for the forseeable unfortunately.

I agree, we have a club full of yes-men who are more interested in their salaries and keeping in with the boys, rather than speaking up, or even whispering in BK's ear that this can't go on.

I just can't fathom why pundits on TV and in the media regard him as a great coach. What are they going by? His track record states the complete opposite.

I never wanted or rated him. But one things for sure: he's here for the duration.

When Distin left, the writing was on the wall. You don't become a poor defender over night, unless you play for Martinez, that is.

Let's hope we do Man City on Wednesday. Not for his sake but for ours.

This whole situation is starting to make previously sane people say things in desperation that on another day they would not and should not even contemplate, like...

Moyes!

I hope we lose at City. That's how bad it is now and that's why he has to go... never mind the 6 wins his season and the 18 in 60 which is cause on it's own.

Martin O'Neil, that's who I would like.

Indulging the mistaken decision-making of the likes of Stones, Barkley and Howard rather than moving to correct them is costing us dear and will continue to do so.

I'll say exactly the same about Martinez. It's his choice.

Frankly that's an insult to all of us paying good money on Wednesday to support the team – and also to the thousands at home rooting for the team.

Distin obviously saw the writing on the wall, but this time the whole team must tell Martinez to Fuck off !!

If the Chairman really does want some success and has love of the club that he says he has (and I believe him) he should forget easy choices and look at someone with a proven track record and the right age.

If you had studied Martinez track record (which he's fully living up to) he would never have been appointed. I don't expect Pep but there are better out there. I don't want Moyes back and I don't want merry go round carpetbaggers.

Having said that you can forget about a new manager probably until after next season.

'This whole situation is starting to make previously sane people say thing in desperation that on another day they would not and should not even contemplate, like.

Moyes

I hope we lose at Man City.

That's how bad it is now and that's why he has to go... never mind the 6 wins his season and the 18 in 60 which is cause on it's own.'

There is more to Evertonia on the web than ToffeeWeb and I have seen some, not many admittedly, but some actually say that and get jumped on in a similar manner... like I said previously sane.

I'm only 50% guilty – No Moyes at any price, for however short a time. If he gets in and gets any sort of Improvement, which he well might, it'll only be the reverse of Martinez's 1st season. Then he'll be all over Bill going on about his 'precious' and soon he'll have a new contract and off we go again.

Can I come off the naughty step now?

I believe Alan Stubbs was there for the whole of that season and left for Hibs in June 2014. Maybe some of the defensive qualities in the team that season were his influence and we have been sadly lacking someone similar since his departure. Just a thought.

In terms of that discussion 'hope we lose', I understand. The feeling is that is we fluke the league cup, then it guarantees another year with Martinez. Is the short term lift of silverware worth it? It's valid but incorrect, of course.

Football is always about winning, and boy does this club need silverware. While top 4 is now the golden chalice, and cup football seen as a side-show (that is what Sky keeps telling us), but I still believe real fans crave silverware, that day at Wembley.

Also, if we win the cup, we may be able to convince a decent manager to take over. While the Europa League is widely derided, Europe is Europe and the best players/managers want that exposure/challenge.

We need, after Wednesday, the likes of Barry, Jagielka or Baines to come out and criticise the manager. If the young players do, they'll be written of as young lads pushing for a move. If seasoned professionals do, then it will be taken seriously.

At this precise point there is no need for panic. We are still in a comfortable mid table position and we have only lost six games. Losing only one game away from home perhaps tells us that not everything has been disastrous.

The players must also take their share of responsibility for the failure to win home games and for the five defeats we have suffered at Goodison. It is the home form which has killed us and poisoned the atmosphere.

It was the same in the autumn and winter of 1983-84 when a league cup run kept Howard Kendall in a job. Back then we recovered through the collective effort of the players, a focused manager and 13,000 regulars who got behind a team willing to pull their finger out. Team, manager and fans showed a togetherness which turned things around. Therein lies the best solution to our current problems.

As always sacking the manager is easier than finding a suitable replacement. Forget Martin O'Neill. He will not leave the Ireland job before the summer. Di Matteo completely lost the plot at West Brom. Much as I admired his achievement in stabilising the club during his tenure, Moyes as an interim manager would be seen as a panic move. It may come to that but we are not there yet.

Again, some hark back to ancient days of SAF when they seek to prove that faith in a manager is always rewarded by ultimate success. As if. Any in – depth research will show that many managers who have been indulged when they should have been dispensed with have never delivered – or if they have – have gone off the boil as soon as a renewed contract has provided a pathway to lifelong riches.

The truth is that what happened in less competitive times under different Boards with different managers has no bearing on the game today. Far too many clubs who have stuck by their man (including Wigan!) have been left to rue the patience and trust they put in some smooth talker as they wallow in the lower leagues.

Personally, I believe BK is far more 'with it' than he gets credited for on here and will act as soon as his advisers tell him HIS pot of gold is at real risk. This week will be interesting.

I just don't see him changing at all. We are unlikely to go down as there are others worse than us, but I'll be amazed if he is with us next season

"And if I gave that impression, all that reflects on is my poor command of my native language. Not my personal opinion."

Are we done yet? Or do I have to re-explain my previously re-explained explanation of what I never said in the first place.

[Goes off to find hair shirt and scrouge, then suitably chastised, sign up for English 101.considers changing name by deed poll to 'dobby' and performing 50yrs reparations in Chez Halligan... stands with gaze toward floor, passing sombrero through hands in manner of downtrodden peasant in a Mexican village talking to Yul Brynner]

Now can I come off the naughty step

jeez.

The question the board should always ask themselves is would we appoint our current boss on his last 6, 12 or 24 months results? If the answer to that question is an overwhelming no, then the board must admit they have the wrong manager in place and should seek a new person to take up the role. Mind you if they had have asked that question at the time they were considering Mr Martinez for the job they wouldn't have appointed him in the first place.

Whilst winning a cup may postpone any proper scrutiny of the man in post, the bread and butter is and always has been the results achieved in the league and the board of directors should assess the manager on those results alone.

However, in this modern game, money has become the main target for many clubs and on that score, Martinez may be doing a fantastic job as far as the directors are concerned, particularly if the investments he has made in players are realised in the transfer market.

If Roberto could be persuaded that he needs an 'alter-ego' figure alongside him – maybe an Allan Irvine or Davie Wier type – it could change all our fortunes around...

On the evidence I've seen so far I don't believe Mr Martinez is a Premier League manager, and the kind of excuses coming out of his mouth are bordering on the delusional. He's turning us into a team that everyone wants to play, I believe he's lost the supporters and is close to losing the players.

Why have only Southampton, Tottenham and Manchester City conceded fewer goals away from home (11 compared with our 12, eight of which came in three games)?

That's not be being negative, it's just a fact. Martinez doesn't practice corners as it's only a small portion of the game so it wasn't deliberate and genius, that just leaves it to hit the first man yet again (doesn't matter who takes it) and it somehow went in.

So all the players are now forgiven for future pathetic corners as we once scored from one. It's a joke.

Please, please, please put us out of our misery...I don't think I can take another game of this sorry-excuse-of-a-manager!

You raise a good point. The reason we concede more goals at home is fairly straightforward. We play a more open game and our opponents play a more counter attacking style to which we are particularly vulnerable. We are much more comfortable when sides come at us and we adopt a less gung ho approach.

Of the five home defeats all bar Man City we have been beaten by sides frustrating us and hitting us on the break. It is pretty obvious to all bar Martinez it appears.

However, there is another person on another thread now suggesting that it would be a bad thing if Everton beat Man City. Unbelievable!! – whatever you think about our philosopher in charge.

Also, I would like to state now, I hope we win the League Cup, and FA Cup, this season, and when we do, I still want Martinez gone!! Why? Fundamentals!

If you don't concede, you have a far greater chance of winning any game of football.

Set plays/Dead ball situations. Even if you don't consider them important, your opposition does, so practice them!

It amazes me after last season that he still has the job because Xmas last season was the biggest low point in a long time for our club.

I don't know how long it takes the penny to drop with Bill and how much his illness is affecting things but neither of those should matter.

We need this self deluded fool gone now.

Carl 50. It's not set pieces we need to practice. It's how to defend against a player in a clearly off side position. How to deal with hand-balls that richochet into our penalty area to opposition attackers. How to make sure deflections don't end up in the back of our own net and how to deal with miss hit crosses that turn into 'wonder' goals.

Seriously though. How many goals from free kicks and corners have we conceded this season?

Me personally, I think if you're going to advocate sacking the manager you have to have a person in mind to replace him rather than leaving the club in limbo and rudderless. That would be creating more danger to the club's future. I think right now, it would be beyond Dunc, Unsy, Weir and Sheedy to take the reins on. Managerial (top level) experience is a must right now.

I think we'll finish in the bottom half, if we'll get close to the relegation the players will throw the philosophy out the window and go with what they know best to get results. Top 4 was gone before Christmas, we're too inconsistent and poor at the back to get anywhere near Europe (cups aside).

Last year I suggested Mark Hughes, I got slaughtered in that article by all and sundry. Hate to say I told you so, but that's what we need, a manager to make us mentally tough, fit, competitive, combative when necessary, good at set peices, has a nasty streak like his teams when required and can get good players in from the continent. He gets his teams to play a bit too.

I read that one poster wanted Jose Mourinho. Bit far fetched that to even give it any credence. If Roberto goes, we have to be clever and realistic about who's taking over. Moyes again for the short term? Most definitely not. But we missed a trick in not getting Slaven Bilic or Mark Hughes. That's my thoughts on it.

Derek, you would have been better holding your fire about losing to City tomorrow night. I've heard Liverpool / Man Utd fans saying that they hoped they'd lose if it forced LVG / Rodgers out, the end would justify the means of getting rid of the manager. When I read your post I knew what you were getting at. Means to justify the end which a lot want to happen = Roberto getting the sack.

I want us to win the League Cup and really go for it in the FA Cup, as much as I desperately want it, the price of that success being Roberto for another year at least? I think without the cup success Roberto will be gone in the summer. Winning the cup giving him another year? That's another debate for another day hopefully (i.e. we win a cup this year).

Don't forget all of this is happening against the backdrop of a possible sale of the club. As such, I suspect that our brave board and owner are otherwise distracted by the prospect of cashing out and therefore not paying much attention to what is happening on the pitch these days. Perhaps once it is confirmed the American interest in the club has disappeared, then, perhaps, we may start to see some action in a vain effort to preserve what little value is left in the club.

Of course, I may have overdosed on my cynicism pills and all will be rosey very soon.

But one thing you need to consider is the people who will be hiring the manager. As many names as we can throw out there, if BK is still in charge, he will pick one that he has control over. Not the ideal situation given the amount of stagnation (or digression in this case) he's allowed. My fear is only that our form will continue to drop until we're or or actually in the relegation zone.

The fighting spirit should have started at the start of the season, and given their lack of stomach to change things for the better, I can only fear the worst when the storm arrives.

We need something to restore a bit of pride and get the fans and the players cheered up a bit instead of this constant embarrassing mess.

The guy is the football equivalent of a sociopath. Today in his press conference, it was set up from start to finish only 2 journalists got ask questions... BEFOR A SEMI FINAL!

I agree with nearly every word written on here apart from the losing the match part. Even though I have a recurring dream about the cup final and then playing Doncaster next season.

Even though many people didn't like Moyes I can not remember any fans saying to me or reading anywhere that they hoped we got beat so Moyes was sacked.

This is so bad the man has got the fans' backs up. Everton fans are not thick they can see through the bullshit.

COYBB tomorrow... just hope my dream is just a dream.

I can pretend to be smart tomorrow...

Again probably not very often if at all in recent history. I stand to be corrected on those claims but whether other clubs fans are moaners or justified or not, I can assure you that most Evertonians are generally forgiving of poor results but not very forgiving if obvious problems within the team are being ignored.

All of want the blues to win every game we can – that's why we are on ToffeeWeb expressing our frustrations because we want better. We know we can't have perfection but we know when we should be getting more than we are.

I also think we are wasting out time talking about who we will have as our next manager because it will be about whoever is available when Martinez eventually goes. That will not be (barring a serious relegation threat this season which is hopefully highly unlikely). Martinez, as I keep saying, will be here next season, so we might as well get used to the idea.

Whilst we may want to see drastic action, the threat of relegation (as a means of setting the spark, is not something I would want to experience. The memory of it seeming nor to be beyond the realms of possibility last season was too scary to live through again – at least for me.

However, should the worst come to the worst we have our very own SWAT team in situ ready to institute a temporary rescue should it be needed namely Joe Royle and David Unsworth.

I also want to put my twopenneth in on the matter of grammar and typos. For some reason there's a problem with, for example, typing in word and copying/pasting in ToffeeWeb because all sorts of weird punctuation marks appear even though this is the best way of producing a typo/incorrect grammar free piece. If an iPad is used (as is my choice) the chances or errors are, for a number of reasons, high.

We should all be a bit more forgiving – except, of course, in the case of football manager out of their depth.

Laying stretched out on the floor, tantalizingly close to the just out of reach bullion, Caine's character Charlie Croker, turns to his fellow crooks and says:

"Hang on a minute lads ... I've got a great idea." And the shot pans away to an exterior view of the teetering bus against the backdrop of the Italian Alps.

Everton and Roberto Martinez are similarly teetering on the brink.

I have defended and criticized RM and the team and individual players in equal measure. I certainly don't resort to gratuitous insults of them, or take an absolutist position either end of the positive or negative spectrum, as some on TW are inclined to do.

As recently as last week, after the Chelsea game, I appealed to others to cut everyone some slack as we had performed in the main extremely well, but that Lady Luck was not with us on the day. I could offer no such defence after the latest debacle at Goodison against Swansea.

To speak first of the positives. We have a talented, youthful squad, some of whom are sought after by the very top clubs in Europe. Many of those players were either recruited by RM, or given a run in the first team by him.

His first season with us exceeded by some distance my expectation of what he would bring to the club.

His substitutions were often timely, bold and imaginative and quite often game changing, with the incoming player assisting or scoring a goal.

He retained a strong defence, just 39 league goals conceded.

Goodison Park remained an intimidating fortress.

The quality of our football at times was the equal of the very best teams in the league.

I agree with and support his chosen recruitment policy of promising youth, from which - in addition to those players developed through the academy since a young age - we could reap a very rich harvest in the near future.

I liked how he 'got' Everton in his first season and his positivism and ambition for the club in all aspects.

I was impressed by the depth of his research and study into the game, epitomized by the now famed 'split sofa' at home, whereby he and his missus can spend the night together, albeit with her tuned into her favourite soaps whilst Robbie closely studies football matches.

Now the negatives. In seasons 2 and 3, RM has failed to replicate or reproduce all the good he achieved in his first season.

The solid miserly defence has vaporized.

Fortress Goodison has been replaced by a decaying backyard door, swinging wide open on rusty hinges.

The briskness and accuracy of attacking moves now splutters and stumbles.

The team cannot be guaranteed to put in a solid performance over the 90 minutes duration of a single game, let alone a sequence of back to back games.

In his first season he was quoted as saying he watched and studied again and again every goal his team conceded to identify the source of the problem so it could be corrected on the training ground. Have we conceded so many goals this season that he is so overwhelmed with a backlog of a huge video library of evidence that he no longer has the time to study our defensive lapses, as previously stated?

His public comments, once so positive and full of optimism, increasingly (in the circumstances we now find ourselves) appear delusional and in denial of the reality of the situation and leave him wide open to (justifiable) criticism.

Taken altogether, there are still occasional glimpses that we are on the cusp of having a really good team.

Sadly, increasingly, there are signs that RM is not the man to help his young charges realize their promise and potential.

It's not necessary to list the damning stats that has led to the growing disquiet of the direction Everton are headed under RM. Most, by now, are all too familiar with them.

And yet ... and yet ... we are just 2 games away from winning silverware after a 21 year drought. Now that could all change in just 24 hours, then change again in a further 72 hours with the FA Cup games against Carlisle.

And therein lies the conundrum of the enigma that is Roberto Martinez.

Regardless of the (meritorious) League Cup run, many a club would have long ago parted with their manager based on RM's league results in the past 18 months. Indeed, many clubs have done just that. With Everton, he has done just enough to retain his position.

The question of whether to continue or replace RM is further clouded by the lack of leadership in BK's continued absence due to obvious ill health, together with the rumours of a takeover (yeah! yeah! I know...).

There is no question there is still a lot to play for this season. One good result at the Eithad tomorrow night, followed by further progress in the FA Cup at the weekend, and the balance swings back in RM's favour once again for the time being.

The alternative...? Defeat tips the balance, the potential of this youthful squad is not realized under this manager and we plunge over the precipice.

Like the cliffhanger ending to The Italian Job, none of us know with any great certainty how this is going to play out.

From my opening paragraph I omitted the very final utterances of Charlie Croker. Having said "Hang on a minute lads ... I've got a great idea," he then looks forlornly at the oh-so-close gold bullion - the same gold bullion that could plunge them all to their death - and utters:

"Ehrm ... ehrm..."

I hope Roberto has more of answer than Charlie Croker to our very precarious predicament, otherwise he - and this team - are a goner.

I know some Evertonians, with a view to the greater good, would see defeat with mixed feelings, but, fuck, let's win something. I bow to no one in my disdain for Martinez but if he got it right I, well, humble pie is sometimes alright.

You're a smart guy, (hope I've got that right); you know what I mean.