Financial Fair Play or Financial Unfair Play?

FFP does also work to avoid a situation where teams go massively into debt to try and buy success; and I think that was part of the plan.

But it absolutely undermines any ability to get "into the club" by protecting the clubs that already have large revenues from competitors spending to catch up.

And there's a big loophole for clubs that spent a bunch prior to 2012-13.

You can increase your wage bill £7m based on prior year; and any further increase beyond that is only allowed if the club can demonstrate a revenue increase.

Or... you can use 2012-13 as a baseline and have your salaries £19m higher than that baseline.

Which means if you were Manchester City and had a huge wage bill in 2012-13 listed as £233m... inflated by counting Mancini's pay off as "wages"... hen you can have a wage bill of £194m last season and scope to increase it to £252m this season if you want. Meanwhile, Everton have a wage bill of £75m and scope to increase it to a maximum of £85m...

I've done some reading on the subject in the past and came to the conclusion that it's hard to make or define precise conclusions! As Robin mentions above, one large effect of the terms and timing of its introduction was to protect the status quo, as given by this from UEFA's own website:

"There are large differences between the wealth of different clubs and countries, which predate and are irrespective of financial fair play. The aim of financial fair play is not to make all clubs equal in size and wealth, but to encourage clubs to build for success rather than continually seeking a 'quick fix'.

"Football clubs need an improved environment where investing in the future is better rewarded so that more clubs can be credible long-term investment prospects."

It all looks very two-tier. Interestingly, four areas of investment that can be excluded from the various calculations to positive effect are stadium, youth development, training facilities and community work... sounds familiar.

If anyone can write an article that can nail it all down in a concise and definitive manner that would give us as fans an accurate reference for the parameters on in and out transfer activity, they're a better man than me.

I guess somewhere there's a financial fair play calculation program into which the numbers could be entered. Accountants will have that but none had made in onto the 'net when I last searched.

So how financially unfair can you get but you wont see Barcelona banned from Europe... However, if it was an English or lesser club, you could guarantee there would be a significant penalty.

Thanks for the link. Maybe the reason we haven't spent any money yet, is because we are still trying to work out how much money we are allowed to spen !!

Sounds like if a club wants to "break" the glass ceiling, they have to increase profits in other ways that are not related to success on the pitch. So maybe we are trying to increase profits by developing youngsters to sell, and not bring them through into the first team – maybe that's why we are seeing a lot of young players linked with us.

Another way to dramatically increase profits would be to sell "10-year" season tickets, with full payment up front. That would spike the income, increase profit, and allow to us to spend, and then "hopefully" see the success on the pitch which would boost merchandise and sponsorship revenue.

It's a gamble, and I am not an accountant, so maybe there is a reason that we can't do that.

The 'buy the title' dream may not be possible. But just think how dire our future would have looked without the Iranian buying into the club. We just need that first decent signing over the line to settle the nerves.

Just like how they changed the format from the European Cup to the Champions league. Ironic that they renamed it the Champions League as the change was it would be open to non-champions of their domestic league. Then the rich cartel clubs didn't like the fact that they could be drawn against one another in the first round, and therefore they changed it from a straight knockout to a group format. Again this change was to allow the rich clubs to progress which was put at risk by a straight knock out competition.

Then still not satisfied with these rule changes they then decided that any club finishing 3rd in their Champions League group would automatically enter the Europa League. Whichever way you dress it up, these changes are to benefit the rich elite and nobody else.

A few clubs have been short term funded for limited success then abandoned with huge debt (and gone bust). If a club is to be encouraged into the elite then they must offer long term funding structures & sustainable business plans. Spurs are well placed after at least five years of building; we can do the same.

FFP ensures no one else can do a Man City or a Chelsea.

It is pulling the trap door up after others have climbed the mountain.

It ensures that, no matter how much investment or how rich our owner is, we can never spend as much as Man Utd or Real Madrid because they get too much commercial income.

He then argues that his beloved Liverpool received only 10% more than Stoke yet had 3 times more television exposure. He then says "then factor in the overseas TV deals and we know which clubs attract the biggest overseas audience". He then says "no wonder you hear grumblings from the likes of Liverpool and he wonders how long before the big 6 flex their muscles".

To be fair, the removal of FFP might not really help us that much either, it could lead to 20 billionaires buying all the Premier League clubs and make the league a random free-for-all every season.

Honestly, I think the main thing holding us back in the transfer market right now is not FFP. It is the desire of global players to only play for the same clubs that have been in the Champions League group stages and knockout rounds year after year. It's a shame, but the Champions League has become everything to many players and fans around the world.

Barca or Real always wins La Liga, Bayern Munich always wins the Bundesliga, Juventus always wins Serie A, PSG always wins Ligue 1, and the only real drama in Europe is the outcome of the Champions League. The domestic leagues have become minor sideshows. It is a shame but it is the reality of football in Europe.

We will need to work our way into the Champions League, and then go on a run and make the knockout rounds, probably twice, in order to get many top global players to look to us as a top club to sign with. Again, it is a shame that they see the football world that way, but it is the reality.

Real financial fair play should involve a cap on the overall wage bill of clubs so that those who pay over the top wages have to balance that by having fewer players; a rule limiting the number of players any club can farm out on loan; a rule that says any given club has to be in the black 3 seasons out of every five or lose points at the start of the subsequent season; and one that says that transfer dealings have to be paid for by revenue.

That would be financial fair play.

Not much by way of drama in the Champions League final either as Real Madrid have won it three out of the last four years, Barcelona have won it three times out of the last ten and only Bayern, Inter Milan, Chelsea and Man Utd have won it during that time. Losing finalists in that period include Bayern (2), Juventus (2), Man United (2), Atletico (2), Dortmund and Chelsea.

Therefore, similar to the domestic leagues it would appear that the Champions League itself is a closed shop when it comes to finding the likely winners.

It's now 2017 and the asset strippers have come and gone, after their devious and heartless work was complete. The club had fallen to earth, through the divisions and was broke. However, after winning League 2 this season, the now fan owned club are beginning to pull the Pompey ship around.

It is my view that events at Portsmouth at that time and the FA Cup "win" played a key role in plotting a route to were we are today. The Chelsea experience would have been viewed as another pointer to future "development of the game" by the movers, shakers and plotters at the administrative head of the sport.

Perennial underachievers like the London club, and latterly Manchester City, have become big winners in a very big game played alongside the football. A world of politico ego-tripping and empire building from powerful rich men and dynasties. Teams with classic history and pedigree, but mismanagement from within, such as Everton, have been left a long way behind, lost at sea amongst rusting hulks.

There are signs of revival for the Blues at this time and within the new world beckoning the club, whilst adhering to the FPP, fans will have to be patient and watch the rebirth. Building gradually, a new ground, infrastructure and much else. The years will roll by until a power base can be re-established. Many years distant, I would suggest, down along the Dock Road.

But it doesn't seem to account for any kind of short-term debt/investment that allows a club to "jump" a level. And that's what entrenches the rich.

As an American I'm surprised I'm the first one on here to mention Leeds United, which was one of the primary motivators for FFP regulation. Whether this motivation is pure is a separate question; regardless, the consequences of FFP have certainly been more beneficial to bigger clubs.

The way I see it, if an owner is willing to put liquid assets (as opposed to the club having to take on debt by borrowing from an owner or other source) into the club's coffers they should be able to spend unimpeded.

"Real financial fair play should involve a cap on the overall wage bill of clubs so that those who pay over-the-top wages have to balance that by having fewer players; a rule limiting the number of players any club can farm out on loan; a rule that says any given club has to be in the black 3 seasons out of every five or lose points at the start of the subsequent season; and one that says that transfer dealings have to be paid for by revenue. That would be financial fair play."

I agree. I would just add a salary cap for individual players. Perhaps something a two-tier system, ie, 2 top players earn £140k a week, and squad players earn no more than £80k or £100k a week.

And how about top 3 placing teams must loan a young player to the 3 teams that just got relegated or something. Spread the talent around. There also needs to be more support for grass roots football at youth level. A lot of foreign players earn money in the English Premier League, and a lot of their money goes to their home country instead.

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STCC (Short Term Cost Control) rules are focused on a club's wage bill and are essentially designed to stop Premier League teams spending all the TV money on wages.

Each team is allowed to increase their wage bill by £7m a year plus whatever non-broadcast commercial revenue they can muster. This would include, naming rights for USM Finch Farm, sponsorship deals with Sportpesa, and also player trading profits.

Just wondering... would it be in our interest to delay a Lukaku sale to the next 'year'?

I guess it would be the financial year of the club in question (otherwise too hard to calculate the numbers)...but I guess you need to look at the FFP rules to know for sure.

The Premier League teams get paid a fixed amount per match so, if the RedShite were on the telly 3 times more than Stoke, then they received 3 times the money.

As for the overseas market, the telly companies buy the Premier League rights to show EVERY game. So, in that case, Stoke were on the telly the same number of times as every team in the EPL. So why should any team get more than another?

Our wage bill was of the order of £83million this last year. We are only allowed to increase that by £4 million plus NEW commercial and player trading, so on the face of it it looks like it will be a long time before we catch the £200+ a year spend at Man U.

However we have £15 million of new commercial business coming in (does that include new TV deals?) so can spend £100 million this year plus profits from player trading.

Consequently if we bring in £150 million by selling three or four (we all know who they are) and only spend £100 Million we are already able to spend £150 million on wages – so cheap deals with high wages (eg, Sandro) is the way to accelerate spending on wages for us over the next few years?

The following year, we can spend £150 million plus £4million on wages plus player trading profit and so on.

Conversely, charging our rivals high prices for players effectively cripples their spending power too.

I could be wrong... but this doesn't look as restrictive as you might think if you can buy players cheap and sell them on.

Basically FFP is a non-issue because it only applies to clubs that are losing money... and we aren't. So it does not hold us back at all. What might hold us back is the Premier League's STCC (Short Term Cost Control) measures. These are designed to stop TV money going straight into wages. Clubs can increase their wage bill by £7m a year. So not a level playing field because some clubs start from a much higher base.

But there are some big loop holes. One is increase of commercial revenue can be used for wages. The other is so can player trading profits. What I hadn't realised is that player trading profits is not how fans would normally understand it because depreciation is used to reduce the original cost.

So for example buy Cleverley for £0m and sell for £8m – profit is £8m. Easy. But buy McCarthy for £10m on a 5-year contract and then sell him after 4 years for 8m then we make a loss right??? Wrong. We still have a trading profit because the original £10m would be depreciated at £2m per year (over the life of the 5 year contract) so that, by year 4, McCarthy's value in the books is only £2m. So sell him for £8m and its a trading profit of £6m for the purposes of the STCC.

Which means its quite easy to make a lot of "profit" on trading players. Although you still need to find the cash! (profit not being cash at all in this scenario). But the point is the STCC rules are not a serious impediment either to bringing in quality players on higher wages.

That would constitute a good summer's business.

Anyway, as I explained, there is more than £7m available