Dowell to Forest on loan

Wednesday 2 August 2017  106 Comments  [Jump to last]
Promising Everton Under-23 winger Kieran Dowell is expected to start a season-long loan with Nottingham Forest this week.

The 19-year-old, who was a regular for England U20s as they won the World Cup earlier this summer, lit up two of the Blues' pre-season games with terrific long-range goals.

However, he found himself back in David Unsworth's U23s setup instead ofthe squad for last week's Europa League qualifier against Ružomberok, suggesting that Ronald Koeman doesn't feel as though Dowell is quite ready to start at first-team level on a regular basis.

Dowell looks now to have secured an opportunity to get valuable experience in the Championship with Forest.

“The paperwork is being completed, it is just the formalities that need to be finalised," said Forest boss Mark Warburton after Dowell trained with his squad for the first time. "But we are delighted to welcome him to the club.”

“He brings quality, he is coming from a top Premier League club, he has international experience and had a very good summer with England, at the Under-20 World Cup.

“He is a young, talented player and we are very much looking forward to seeing him develop and contribute. He has technical excellence, he is comfortable on the ball and can play in a variety of positions. He has flexibility and a hunger and a passion when he plays."

Update: The loan deal was confirmed on Thursday 3 August.  


Reader Comments (106)

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Jay Wood
1 Posted 01/08/2017 at 22:31:08
Kieran off to Forest in the Championship. A club that experienced a lot of turmoil last season and just avoided relegation on the last day of the season.

Link

Potentially a very good move for club and player and his career development and (hopeful) progression to the first team. He is talented enough to be selected for a side like Forest, but it's still a stretch to see him getting much 1st team action at Everton this season.

Will his stamina and psyche be up to the Championship challenge? His year at Forest will tell us a lot about his likely growth and future as a player at the level we want to be.

Good luck to the lad.

Colin Glassar
2 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:30:16
Good move for the lad. Regular games in the Championship will toughen him up.
Brian Williams
3 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:34:15
Bit disappointed in that to be honest. Would have liked to have seen him get a chance to step up this season.
Dan Davies
4 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:37:51
Won't play for us again. Good luck Kieran.
Craig Fletcher
5 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:39:45
I'm a bit gutted for the lad.

If we make it to the Europa League group stages; chances are we'd have played almost 30 competitive games of football even before we hit the busy Christmas/New Year schedule.

Surely there would have been plenty of opportunities for Dowell to get game time for Everton this season, something he deserves for his performances for the Under-23s, England Under-20s, and in pre-season.

Colin Glassar
6 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:49:00
Won't play for us again? Has he been sold? Don't think that's the case.
Charlie Lloyd
7 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:51:50
If he's good enough, he'll shine at Forest and be back knocking on the first team door.

I agree that it seems a bit harsh considering his decent strikes in preseason but there's no room for sentiment near the top.

Over to you, Kieran. Time to prove your worthy. He's got his opportunity now. Set the Championship alight consistently over the season and show Koeman you're worth a place in the matchday squad.

Jack Convery
8 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:55:52
Should be in the first team squad, not out on loan. Forest's gain, in my opinion.
Dave Southword
9 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:56:46
Did Seamus no harm at all. It'll be good for the lad playing in the Championship every week.
Jay Harris
10 Posted 01/08/2017 at 23:58:38
I think this is an ideal move for Kieran who, while he may have the silky skills, is still a world away from the reality of the Premier League.

This should toughen and bulk him up a bit and is a big step up from the U23s.

Mike Gaynes
11 Posted 01/08/2017 at 00:00:09
Excellent! Playing for a great manager in Warburton... lifted Brentford to promotion and brought Rangers back up to the Scottish Premier League, plus winning the Scottish Cup.

And Warburton's assistant is a fine Blue gentleman named David Weir. He'll keep a very close eye on our prize.

"Won't play for us again"??

I'll take a bet on that.

John O'Brien
12 Posted 01/08/2017 at 00:03:46
This lad I think is top quality with the potential to be better than a Siggurdson which we're now going to pay £50M for presumably.

The worry for us is that if he does 'smash' it at Forest which I think he will, he may not be all that keen to come back and may see his future elsewhere. I think lads like Kieran, Jonjoe and Callum Connolly who have all been brought up within the Academy since they were 7 or so have been treated very poorly this pre season.

Lads like DCL and Lookman have received more favourable treatment in my opinion mainly because they have been brought in by Koeman/Walsh and they are claiming 'ownership' of them for their own egos.

Eddie Dunn
13 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:12:08
He won't get game time with us until he gets stronger and this loan will give him ample opportunity to show what he is made of.
Dan Davies
14 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:14:11
Okay, then, Mike, touchez, with everything that's happened to our club since Mr Moshiri got involved and his stated aims about EFC, New Stadium/ getting us back in the big time etc etc...

Hopefully challenging the supposed 'big teams' not just of the Premier League but also Europe, tell me where does Kieran fit in with all that?

He's a boy playing for the Under-23s who undoubtedly has flair and skill but, if he's not deemed good enough now, when will he be?

Is Tom Davies getting loaned to Nottm Forest?

I'll retract what I said: he might play for the Under-23s at some point- if he fails at Forest.

Mike Gaynes
15 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:20:18
John #11, yeah, right.

Did you actually watch the U-20 World Cup?

Dowell had some good moments, deserved his starting spot, but never once looked to be a better player than Lookman or Calvert-Lewin. They've gotten "more favourable treatment" because they're ready for Premier League football and Dowell isn't. Simple as that.

And as for him being potentially better than Sigurdsson... well, this is how we find out, isn't it?

John Pierce
16 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:25:57
Seems like a decent move. Forest are a club who play or have played a style which would help Dowell. The hectic schedule should improve his basic match fitness, The Championships still a tough place to play.

Everton should be more proactive with this. A player like Dowell would IMO do well in a Dutch or Belgian Division 1 team.

Brendan Fox
17 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:28:32
I think the club should not be sending out its best young talent from the U23s on loan before giving them a fair crack at the first team squad and minutes on the pitch in competitive games to see where they really are in their development.

Kieran, I believe, would surprise many if he were given the opportunity – as he showed in the pre-season games, he has an eye for goal, is left-footed, and would add more balance to the current squad.

This loan move could backfire if Kieran has a good season at Forest and decides to move from the club for more first-team football opportunities elsewhere.

Mike Gaynes
18 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:34:11
Dan (#13), he doesn't fit in with all that right now, which is why the loan is such a great idea.

Davies is a different kind of player... fierce and physical in addition to his skills. Dowell is not. Davies was clearly ready to play with the grownups the moment he stepped on the field.

Koeman isn't ready to make that call with Dowell, but I don't think he has shipped him "do not return" at all, or he wouldn't be sending him to play for Warburton and Weir, he'd be loaning him to Sunderland (sorry, Tyias!).

Barry Williams
19 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:37:24
Win-Win. Everton get to see how he performs in a tough competitive league and the player will probably get loads more game time against seasoned players than he would on the periphery of the Everton squad. It is better that he is developed in this way than thrown in at the deep end and not being able to handle it.

All players are different and develop at different rates. Davies and Calvert-Lewin have more physicality about them, so could be used in the Premier League at a young age and Lookman has already played regularly against fully grown men for Charlton and at the moment isn't getting overly exposed.

Coleman, Osman and one Neville Southall all went out on loan!

James Watts
20 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:40:10
John (#11). Oh dear. Is that you, Phil W? It's a good move for the lad. At his current level, he isn't going to play many games for us, especially if Sigurdsson does sign. This way he will hopefully get plenty of game time, develop and come back to us next year ready to challenge properly for a spot.

And you're comment about playing well at forest means he'll never come back? You muppet.

As for preferential treatment, I agree that Kenny should be given a go but the rest aren't ready yet. Lookman and DCL are further along in their development. It's simple.

I swear some people just want to moan for the sake of it.

Derek Thomas
21 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:51:08
Lookman and Calvert-Lewin have already had a stint in the lower leagues – which is why we signed them. It's now up to them to step up if they can.

Dowell is one step behind them and the ball is in his court, he has to Impress there. He has to get his head around the fact that he only has 3 main options: EFC 1st team, Forrest's level or sink down the leagues.

Seems like a sensible, if harsh, progression. For all the glamour, it's still a harsh Darwinian footballing world out there, improve, adapt, survive... or you'll find yourself sinking down the food chain.

Dan Davies
22 Posted 02/08/2017 at 00:55:34
Exactly Derek. Harsh but true.
Don Alexander
23 Posted 02/08/2017 at 01:06:03
Dowell is skilful but he does have a build that may best be described as "slight". Playing in the crucible that is the Second Division ("Championship?!!!" Pur-leeease!) will hopefully go one out of the two best (for us) foreseeable three ways;

1) His skill will improve to the extent he will satisfy us or any other good team in the Premier League.

2) His build will develop which, with his already evident skill, may satisfy us or any other good team etc etc.

3) He joins Hope Akpan, James Vaughan and loads of others who never play again in the Premier League whilst they quietly become millionaires.

If he's got his head screwed on, he'll do his damnedest to get to 1, 2 or 3, in that order.

All the best lad, hope to see you again!

Colin Metcalfe
24 Posted 02/08/2017 at 01:07:46
Sorry but I strongly disagree that DCL is better than Dowell , I have watched DCL and I am still wondering why he is in the first team whereas Dowell is clearly something special , hope the loan comes off but I would prefer him to stay at Everton and fight for a place ! The kid is good enough imo
James Watts
25 Posted 02/08/2017 at 01:56:04
Colin (#23). We know Dowell is very talented but needs a good first team run. He won't get that with us just yet. He'll score a worldie now and again but is still very inconsistent and goes missing too often. Even at U23 level.

Calvert-Lewin is a decent young striker who needs a run in his normal position. He looks a lot better up top than on the wing. Plus Calvert-Lewin has played in the lower leagues already and is in the first team squad so I guess that's the thinking behind it.

My only concern is that Koeman will continue playing Calvert-Lewin out of position then absolutely it makes no sense to loan Dowell as he should be playing in that wing position Koeman has Calvert-Lewin in.

Also we need to factor in Sigurdsson, Dowell's chances will be even less assuming he switches to us.

Peter Gorman
28 Posted 02/08/2017 at 02:39:03
No chance Dowell could fit into a congested midfield this season (and Rooney is obviously undroppable) so a loan move is the best possible thing for him. I'm heartened by the folk singing the praises of Forest and Warburton.

Dowell is one of the most gifted footballers to come through the academy in years; now he has to grasp how good he can be and work for it. I'll be watching the Championship with interest.

Teddy Bertin
29 Posted 02/08/2017 at 03:18:44
Works differently for different players. Some players flourish when surrounded by top class pros and others shine when they're the most talented player in the squad.

You make a kid a millionaire before he's 20 and then send him off to play with players that are sub-standard in comparison and not earning anywhere near what he is, then you can't be surprised when that player loses motivation and just cruises along.

I think we often forget as fans that we're talking about teenagers here. We act shocked when they don't knuckle down because we're looking from the outside thinking that they will surely do whatever it takes to become a world class footballer, when in fact they're just kids who want to hang out with their mates and kick a ball around.

I hope that he flourishes at Forest but still feel like it's a risk with such a talented kid. I'd rather he be around people like Barry and Rooney who know what it takes to make it at the top level.

Chris James
30 Posted 02/08/2017 at 03:55:05
Great that he's getting competitive experience (and the Championship will be a step up from U23s), but I concur that he should really have been in the first team squad – feels a bit like we had a new Barkley (the original breakthrough version) ready to emerge.

It is fair to say though that with Rooney, Klaassen, Davies, Gueye, Schneiderlein, Barry, Lookman, Mirallas, Besic and maybe Sigurdsson (and Bolasie to return at some point) all vying for 4-5 positions, it's not like he was going to be a regular starter in the Premier League and this does feel like a progression from the youth team.

Maybe would've preferred a shorter loan time and chance for him to come back in 3 months, but I guess we may have the option to recall him still.

Jay Harris
31 Posted 02/08/2017 at 03:58:22
I've watched Dowell quite a lot over the last few years and while he has undoubted skill, scores great goals and has good ball control he does not impose himself on a game and is a mile off Premier League standard.

All those posters crying for the youngsters to be thrown in on the basis of a good showing on a couple of outings need to realise there is a chasm between U23 standards and the Premier League.

The only way to bridge that gap is to up their game gradually through loan spells.

Didn't do us any harm with Big Nev, Bainesy or Seamus, did it?

Danny Broderick
32 Posted 02/08/2017 at 05:07:30
Some of our youngsters could do with a season in the Championship to gauge their progress. I'm hoping Kenny gets a loan as well, seeing as we have brought in this Cuco fella.

I personally don't think Calvert-Lewin and Lookman are first team players yet. Even they could do with a season in the Championship...

Mike Gaynes
33 Posted 02/08/2017 at 05:15:18
Danny, I must disagree on Lookman. The kid provides explosive pace off the bench and is an ideal sub to electrify a game late. He did it several times last season. Not first 11, but I want to see him on the bench for every game.

As for Calvert-Lewin, I share your skepticism, but I don't think Koeman does.

Dave Speed
34 Posted 02/08/2017 at 05:28:08
I defer to those who have watched Kieran in more than just a few higher profile games for the first team, as my impatience drives me to want to see him doing it in the Premier League. I think playing for the first team will whet his appetite and it should motivate him to do well at Forest to get noticed back here.

I don't go along with young heads not knowing what's good for them. At that age I had a good job with good people around me and I wanted to be the best I could be while I was in work, and then enjoy myself outside of work. Admittedly there are different temptations and pressures for the young lads, but overall I believe that the correct guidance generally gets these lads to where they should be.

The loan spell at the right time has benefited countless young pros, and it often brings them life skills, to see good pros on less money pulling their tripes out each week. With respect to those who have had good careers in the lower leagues, it's not what a young lad wants out of his own career, and so it spurs them on.

David Cooling
35 Posted 02/08/2017 at 06:53:39
This seems like a good move to me, Dowell looks like a real talent, but with the heavy investment in the first team his chances of playing time will be limited. I'd rather him getting 30 to 40 games in a step below, than the odd cameo in an Europa League tie. It never hurt Beckham when he got loaned to Preston all those years ago.
Steven Jones
36 Posted 02/08/2017 at 07:34:42
If he was 23 and performing like he is for another Premier League team and was valued at say £15m, scoring 8 goals and 3 assists per season – then Walsh would still not select him as a target.

The reason is, despite having all the attributes, we say he does not fit the mold the Ron and Walsh are looking for. He could become a Le Tissier or a Hoddle type – but that is not what we have as our strategy.

We are at the Dutch 4-3-3 highly physical wing attackers that can press etc. Sandro, Rooney and a few others like Lookman and Calvert-Lewin will fill those wing attack areas and we will get one or two centre-forwards in as well.

Lee Brownlie
37 Posted 02/08/2017 at 07:58:31
I reckon he'll be back, hopefully better and stronger, but I can't help feel Calvert-Lewin is getting a place out wide up front that only Koeman seems to think he's good for! For me, if we're to play a 'youth' there, then Dowell is the better young proposition in this area, and I feel had been showing it pre-season.

Despite my hope for the coming season and plenty of belief in our manager, for now at least, as to why we'd rather have a tall (young) centre-forward in that position – out of position! – remains beyond me.

Ben Howard
39 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:25:33
On balance, my head says that a loan is probably beneficial to the club and player and Forest are a brilliant well-run club. My heart had hoped he'd break through into our team this season though as the idea of a home-grown tricky left-footed player just raises my interest a little!

Hopefully with Henry and Kieran getting valuable first team experience, they can come back next season and join a Champions League side*.

(* Everton in case that wasn't clear!)

Sam Hoare
40 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:25:35
Hmmm.... I usually approve of such loans but for me Dowell did far more in preseason than Lookman and Calvert-Lewin. If such performances are not to be rewarded then what's the point?

Also he looks a delicate soul to me. If he struggles at all at Forest they will have zero compunction about dropping him unceremoniously whereas at Everton there is a vested long term interest which might facilitate a gentler approach. Many kids get swallowed up by the loan system and spat out the other side in a League Two club.

As ever we have to trust that the coaches know him well and have spoken with him to work out what's the best next move for him. If he can establish himself in a decent Forest side pushing for promotion, then that will go some way to earning him a role in our squad next season.

Derek Knox
41 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:28:26
Feel in two ways about this; yes, he was one of the stand out performers pre-season, I would have liked to have seem him incorporated into the senior squad.

Yet, if that was to warm the bench, with a ten minute substitute's role every now and again, probably best that he gains regular football with, in this case, Forest.

Like a few have mentioned, David Weir is there, so hopefully will look after him. I just hope and pray that he does come back to us, better and stronger.

John Smith
42 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:28:57
Good luck to him, but I'd prefer him stay with us as an U23 player, and sometimes filling in at the senior squad team when needed. I don't like these season long loan deals.

Look what happened to Galloway. Played a few games, and never got a game for almost an entire calendar year and Tony Pulis, the so and so, wouldn't give him back (eventually made an exception involving the our U23 squad toward the end, but it was an arrogant no for inclusion in our senior squad).

I'd prefer a 3-month loan at first and wait and see approach. If they don't get game time, we get them back almost asap.

Tony Abrahams
43 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:33:02
Some good points Sam, and I think this is the reason why Everton have kept Dowell back, whilst letting all the other younger kids go out on loan before now.

He's very highly thought of and looks to me that he finds the difficult things really easy, but there are two sides to football, and hopefully playing regular competitive men's football will bring him on that bit more.

Good luck lad, go and enjoy yourself because if you do, then that should mean that you are doing well!

Andrew Ellams
44 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:33:15
Certainly got the ability but I do think he needs to develop his physical side and this is his chance.

Dowell, Pennington, Galloway and Browning are all on a year-long audition. Not all four will make it, my suspicion is that only Dowell will and the others will find their levels this season.

Nicholas Ryan
45 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:50:00
Can I just remind people, that a certain Harry Kane had 8, yes, 8 different loan spells, before he came back and took the Premier League by storm!
Jon Withey
46 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:52:49
Even Beckham played at Preston, didn't he? It'll benefit him more but I'm still a bit disappointed.
James Morgan
47 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:53:41
How can people say "if he's not ready now when will he be?" He's 19! I seem to remember our own Leon Osman going out on loan to Derby and Carlisle at a similar age, maybe even older. A certain Harry Kane went on loan half a dozen times before he broke in to Spurs' first team.

He could well end up finding his level and not returning, you never know, but the only way to find out how good he is is for him to have some game time in a really tough division playing against men. It should do him the world of good.

Bill Griffiths
48 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:53:50
Sam, as I understand things, Joe Royle's role is to liaise with loanee's clubs and monitor their progress etc.

Guess we have to trust in Joe to make sure Kieran and the other lads out on loan are looked after and treated fairly etc.

Ciarán McGlone
49 Posted 02/08/2017 at 08:55:52
Dowell is hit and miss. He is not the Messiah or Messi. Good move for the kid.
Bill Griffiths
50 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:00:06
Slightly off topic , I'd like to go & watch the U23s a few times this season if possible.

Can someone tell me whereabouts Finch Farm is located in Liverpool?

Bob Parrington
51 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:06:04
As long as he actually does get games and isn't treated in the same way as Brendan when he joined the Baggies on his season-long loan!!!
Phil Walling
52 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:25:38
Never likely to get a run in the Everton side so just as well to get used to the lower leagues at Forest as anywhere else. After all ,with Warburton in charge, they are the new Brentford.

Good luck to you, lad, wherever you land!

Dave Abrahams
53 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:26:36
I think this is a good move for Dowell; he's got all the skill necessary to be a very good player, he just doesn't get involved enough, this move, under Warburton will toughen him up and CAN be the making of him, it is up to Keiran himself.

Jonjoe Kenny is tough enough now but I will not be surprised if he is loaned out as well. This is a poor move, if it happens, Kenny has worked hard at his game and gives his all for ninety minutes, he is ready now, is Martina good enough, might cause a big stink if he isn't.

It looks like Connolly is being sacrificed in our pursuit of the Swansea player. Liam Walsh will go on loan, he is tougher than Barkley will ever be, and should stay here, so there is a downside to all these signings even the young players they have signed for the future.

The young players who have been here 10 or more years will be pushed out to make way for them and they all have the one thing in common: potential. Some will not be given the chance to prove it – not a good way to run the youth system in my opinion.

John Newman
54 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:26:37
This lad has the ability, no doubt about it. I was hoping to see him play for us this season in some context maybe some cup matches and as an impact sub and at least be training with the first team as I genuinely think he's at the level now.

I suppose, if the gaffer thinks otherwise, a loan move to Forrest who will be challenging for promotion will be a good experience for Kieran and I expect him to do well.

Stan Schofield
55 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:29:36
Not sure what to think of this. Mainly because I'm not sure what Koeman's plan is, in turn because I can't fathom his tactics. For example, he plays Calvert-Lewin on the wing, but I can't fathom why, because Calvert-Lewin is a good player, but looks to be best in the centre.

If I could be clear about Koeman's approach, I could then perhaps be clearer about where Dowell does or doesn't fit into whatever plans he has, if he has any.

Tony Hill
56 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:30:48
A lot of talent but needs sharpening up and toughening up. It's a pivotal moment for him. On balance, I think it's a good move by the club.
Mike Allison
57 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:32:35
As the comparisons are being made, I thought I'd look up the stats.

Dominic Calvert-Lewin: age 20; career first-team appearances: 42
Ademola Lookman: age 19; career first-team appearances: 53
Keiran Dowell: age 19; career first-team appearances: 2

He's way behind those other two in terms of career development and experience, and needs this loan. If he never plays for Everton again, it'll be because he wasn't good enough, despite having nice technique.

We're looking for players who are strong in four areas: physical, technical, tactical and character. We only know that Dowell is strong in one out of these four areas (technical); the rest all need to be developed and demonstrated. A loan is the only real option for this.

Derek Knox
58 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:37:10
Bill @ 50, Finch Farm is situated not too far from Halewood, which basically is behind the Tata, Land Rover factory, best of luck!
Bill Griffiths
59 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:41:52
Thanks, Derek. Can you get buses &/or trains there from the city centre? If trains, what station would I need to get off at? I live near Caernarfon by the way.
Clive Rogers
60 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:50:18
Bill, the club has said that some U23 games will be at Goodison and will be free to season ticket holders.
John Graham
61 Posted 02/08/2017 at 09:56:48
Well, let's hope this is a big stepping stone for him and not a kick in the privates. He played very well for the U20s and has looked good pre-season but. if it's been explained that this is the right move to get him ready for the first team, it will be good for him.

If he's just been shipped off because he's surplus to requirements then it could be the end of a promising youngster.

Good Luck, Kieran; show them what they're missing.

Liam Reilly
62 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:08:56
Good move for the boy.

If Sigurdsson does sign then how many midfielders would we have? I can see Davies's time on the field being drastically reduced this season, especially in the key games.

Hopefully Liam Walsh goes out also to a strong Championship team because, as much as I'd like to see him in the first team, it's just not likely until the squad is trimmed.

James Stewart
63 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:22:49
I predicted this during the live forum of the last friendly and was shot down. Dowell isn't ready for the Premier League, the odd moment of brilliance but his work rate is terrible.

A loan move will really help him get up to speed. As good as Unsworth is doing, that league is so far behind the unforgiving level of the Premier League it's untrue.

Derek Knox
64 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:31:48
Bill @ 59, I don't think you can get a train, but definitely buses from the centre.
Bill Griffiths
65 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:34:26
Thanks for your help, Derek.
Bobby Mallon
66 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:34:29
The board just need to stump up the £50 million for sigurdson and stop messing around with add-ons and players. Always the same when we are spending our own money. Ahhh...
John Pickles
67 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:48:14
Brilliant in patches ? Goes missing ? Scores the odd screamer ?Poor work-rate ?

Sounds like he would already fit perfectly as an Everton winger.

Ian Jones
68 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:49:33
I think it has been looked at in the past by English clubs and not thought very highly of... but it might get to a point when the Premier League teams decide to set up an independent club to play in the main leagues, if allowed by the various Football authorities, similar to Barcelona's B team who play in the second division in Spain. Of course, any newly formed 'B' team would no doubt have to start at the bottom tier and work its way up.

It would give the youngsters plenty to aim for as they make their way in the game and the new club could use Goodison Park as the ground!

On a serious note, I do feel it's a pity that many of our youngsters may never get the chance to shine for us in the first team. I appreciate there are many reasons why players are loaned out, mainly to get experience etc, and also many reasons why many of the younger players who come through the Academy/youth set up at Everton fail to make the grade.

At the end of the day, football is changing, and although Man Utd brought through a group of young but exceptionally talented players at the same team, allied with players of great experience, and took the Premier League by storm, that was over 20 years ago. I don't think any other club has got close to achieving that since.

If we want to be part of the elite, or the best club, it seems we will need to get used to bringing in 'experienced' ready-made players to fill the gaps, as and when they crop up, that young players may have filled, in previous years.

If I was Tom Davies, I would be worried with the current set-up. Last season, at 18, he ended up as a regular in the first team, possibly elevated due to circumstances, injuries etc, but he took his chance and did well. This season, I can see him sitting on the bench.

Dave Pritchard
69 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:51:13
Dowell, like Kenny and a number of other youngsters, are frequently talked of on TW as being ready for the first team but it is all conjecture. I know we only find out by throwing them in at the deep end but, with a bigger first team squad (or at least it feels that way), especially in midfield, Dowell would not have even made the bench in most games.

Kenny is more likely to stay rather than be sent out on loan only because we have less cover in his position. Nobody knows whether he is good enough for the first team but, with Coleman out and Martina looking a bit shaky last week, we may find out.

Ian Jones
70 Posted 02/08/2017 at 10:54:45
Just seen Neymar's possible move to PSG for nearly £200 million could be happening.

I can now see why Gerard Deulofeu went back to Barcelona.

Dave Paul
71 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:00:57
I think a season learning in the Championship at a club where there is a level of expectation could be the making of the lad. From what I have seen of him, he needs to toughen up and work harder when he, and also when his team, do not have possession.

Really hope it goes well as he could be a proper player for us for many a year.

James Watts
72 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:08:55
Ian (#70),

"I can now see why Gerard Deulofeu went back to Barcelona"

Why Ian? He'll still be on the bench as they will have Countinho.

Ian Jones
73 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:27:40
James, sorry. I should have added a smiley face or exclamation mark. Comment was made in jest! :)
Peter Gorman
74 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:35:14
"If he never plays for Everton again, it'll be because he wasn't good enough, despite having nice technique."

I'll have to take issue with you on that, Mike. He could possibly never play for Everton because he doesn't fit the system (as pointed out by other posters).

It has been said many times here but it is worth repeating for those who do not follow the U23s but we basically have what amounts to a 'golden generation' if you can forgive the cringeworthy phrase. That is to say, a crop of kids who as a bunch are significantly better than those who came before or since.

For me, it is their attitude and will to win which is the most striking aspect; we've all seen it in abundance with Tom Davies but it also applies to Liam Walsh, Jonjoe Kenny, Dowell and Connolly. The latter two are quieter personality types but, like the others, they could thrive given a chance.

To think that Connolly already is being touted as a makeweight in the Sigurdsson transfer makes me fear for the likes of Dowell, Kenny and Walsh. It has been pointed out before but it is probably true that Koeman is not that invested in the youth team as his interest is his own job security in the short-term. It would be tragic if we lost some very talented kids (all Evertonians btw) because there is no long-term strategy in place.

Obviously we are speculating on whether or not they all are league standard but we've seen one of the group given a chance and he took the team by storm.

John G Davies
75 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:48:38
Clever move from Koeman.
Gary Edwards
76 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:53:35
Peter bang on correct, this:

"To think that Connolly already is being touted as a makeweight in the Sigurdsson transfer makes me fear for the likes of Dowell, Kenny and Walsh. It has been pointed out before but it is probably true that Koeman is not that invested in the youth team as his interest is his own job security in the short-term. It would be tragic if we lost some very talented kids (all Evertonians btw) because there is no long-term strategy in place."

I would also add that Unsworth had them playing in a way and a system that Koeman seemingly wants the 1st XI to play and he (Unsie) slotted players in and out seamlessly and it was good to watch, ie, pacey, positive, high energy footie no pissing about at the back, players running onto balls played down the channels, great movement between the midfield and strikers.

Kevin Prytherch
77 Posted 02/08/2017 at 11:56:34
I've said it before on another thread...

Michael Keane was playing in the championship just 2 years ago; now, he's our £25million saviour in defence.

If any of the loanees in the championship are good enough, this should be the season they start to shine. If they don't, they probably weren't quite good enough.

It is promising that we are now loaning players out to the Championship, where a couple of years ago it was League One or League Two. This is surely a good sign of the how far our academy is coming along.

Fran Mitchell
78 Posted 02/08/2017 at 12:02:03
Excellent move. Look at Alli and Kane at Spurs, their experience at lower League clubs was highly important.

Better the lad get 30 games under his belt at a decent club, than 6-10 sub appearances and the odd League Cup game with no real pressure to perform.

He has talent, for sure, but in a position like his, and with his style, It is unfair to compare to Davies. 30-40 games, an important role in the team, in a competitive league Will show us what he has.

Next season, at 20 years of age, he'll be ready to take the Premier League by storm.

With him, Onyekuru, Galloway and Williams coming back next season a year older and a season wiser and stronger, it'll be like 3 new signings.

Gary Edwards
79 Posted 02/08/2017 at 12:05:09
Bill Griffiths, check the club website for where the U23 games are played. I just checked and as expected many are played in Southport, read "Merseyrail Community Stadium" and that's Meols Cop station on Northern Rail or Southport on Merseyrail.
Kevin O'Regan
80 Posted 02/08/2017 at 12:27:09
Bit off topic but I saw a 19-year-old called Sanchez playing for Bayern last night against an unnamed team from across the park. He was bought for €35m last year after a good youth championship for Portugal.

I would love the rumours to come true that Klopp would buy him for €50m. Never seen so many poor passes in all my life, no idea, no clue and hardly any experience at that level. So what if it takes an extra year for Dowell to get to a Premier League level – this could make him into a great player. Okay for me.

Tony J Williams
81 Posted 02/08/2017 at 12:41:14
What ever happened to the next Baines, Garbutt?
Stephen Davies
82 Posted 02/08/2017 at 12:59:22
Ian (#70).

Yes, it appears we may have missed out on him... 😉

Dave Richman
83 Posted 02/08/2017 at 13:43:14
Tony @ 81

As far as I know, Garbutt stunk the gaff out at Fulham 2 seasons ago, and only managed 8 appearances for Wigan – a truly awful Wigan side to boot – last season. He is 24 now and his career seems to be going backwards.

It's a shame, because he looked handy a few years back, but I doubt he's going to pull up trees any time soon.

Mike Keating
84 Posted 02/08/2017 at 13:48:43
Was about to join the 'moan for the sake of it' brigade but find it difficult to argue with all the evidence; Big Nev, Ossie, Seamus, Kane, Beckham...

I just hope I get to see Kenny in a blue shirt this season.

Paul Williams
85 Posted 02/08/2017 at 14:02:07
Barry (#19). If we sent Southall out on loan to bulk up, we should be sending Kieran to the same place!

Seriously, bit disappointed on this one, I was hoping after pre-season he could break through but probably for the best.

John G Davies
86 Posted 02/08/2017 at 14:09:39
Mike (#84),

Don't worry, mate, there will be plenty ready to take your place. 😀

Alan J Thompson
87 Posted 02/08/2017 at 14:12:28
The lad isn't big enough. Anyone remember the last World Cup winner we signed who was told a couple of times he wasn't big enough, whatsisname... Alan Roundthing?

Pity he isn't Dutch or failed to get a game with Southampton last season.

Tony Cunningham
88 Posted 02/08/2017 at 14:15:05
I guess many of us are a bit torn. We hoped he'd break into the 1st team this season and get a good few games under his belt and a bit worried he may just end up as one of many loanees who never make it...

However as others have said many of our most successful players have done their bit on loan and it offers the lad a good chance to get 30+ games under his belt playing week in week out and then we'll really know if he's got what it takes.

If he's good enough, then, come next August, it'll be like a new signing.

Mike Allison
89 Posted 02/08/2017 at 15:21:31
I see what you're saying, Peter (#74) but I stand by the spirit of what I've said. Part of him being 'good enough' is being able to adapt his game and develop his weaknesses until he fits our system. There's little point being a talented technical player if no-one can actually fit you into a team, or the other three elements of your game are considered too weak.

The main point of my post was that, if Dowell doesn't make it at Everton, it'll be because he didn't develop as a 'four-sided' player, not because the loan to Forest was a bad idea.

The loan to Forest is a good idea and gives him the chance to develop as a player in what will be difficult circumstances, in a tough league but with good guidance. He's only ever played two games (one as a sub) where the result really mattered deeply and emotionally to the people watching (and that is being generous given what those two games were). Hopefully he'll play two of those a week for the next 10 months. That was certainly not going to happen at Everton this season.

William Cartwright
90 Posted 02/08/2017 at 15:34:03
Like most supporters, watching the youth players develop into quality first-teamers is somehow different and more rewarding than watching players bought into the side. No issues with that.

I sense that, in our situation, Moshiri is an impatient investor and is looking to 'buy the results' asap, realizing the increased profit that the success will bring. Nothing wrong with that either.

The recent youth players who have come through including those bought into the first team squad and the U23s set-up just have to measure up to the standards being set. I would rather buy and play a player of superior quality than include a player of less quality because he is a product of the academy youth system.

If it were possible to evaluate players with absolute accuracy, then an excellent academy player would be more welcome than a bought in player, a) because of the sort of almost family relationship and b) the visible cost saving. Davies is special for all the right reasons and that's great. Kenny may be too. And Walsh.

Dowell possibly is but he does need some bite or edge to his game and that has the best chance to be brought out with a good loan experience. A bad loan experience and he may not come through.

I would like to think that, with Joe Royle and David Weir in the picture, he will do okay. By the end of this season I expect Kenny, Davies, Holgate and Lookman will have consolidated their positions within 'the squad' and possibly Calvert Lewin – not so sure. That would be an excellent showing. Next season Dowell, Walsh and Onyekuru. However, nothing is certain, the need a lot of luck along the way. Ledson's situation was the one that really disappointed me. I thought he would make the breakthrough.

I am also interested to hear more about Jose Baxter's progress and Ryan Gauld who went from Dundee to Portugal. He looked amazing alongside Robertson, the full back who's just joined the RedShite. Does anyone know anything?

Ray Robinson
91 Posted 02/08/2017 at 15:42:33
This may have been said earlier in the thread – so apologies if it has – but despite the loan system being a great way of allowing young players to bridge the gap between U23 and first team by gaining valuable experience, I can only really think of Coleman and Osman who successfully made the transition.

You could argue Barkley too but his loan spells didn't go that well. So, regrettably, the odds are stacked against him and we may never see Dowell again in the first team. I hope that that's not the case.

Joe Edwards
93 Posted 02/08/2017 at 16:01:30
I am happy Dowell is going on loan and not as a makeweight to Swansea for Sigurdsson. I have seen this kid play in the Under-23s and he is a great prospect, for me he has more about him than Calvert-Lewin who inexplicably to me is favoured by Koeman.

As previous comments have noted, the loan system is extremely polar – either brilliant or devastating to young players' careers (eg, Galloway), lets hope Dowell returns to the fold bigger, stronger, faster and worth £6 million.

Andy Riley
94 Posted 02/08/2017 at 16:27:35
I think with many of these players it's about finding the right level and the coaches clearly see them every day and are best placed to determine what that level may currently be, if it's clearly not Premier League level at present, for whatever reason.

Anyone remember a centre-half called Peter Clarke? I think he got many England U21 caps whilst at Everton and played a handful of first team games where when up against the likes of Shearer he was clearly out of his depth. I think since then he's had a reasonable career round League 1/2 level but no-ones thought he was worth bringing back to the Premier League.

Andrew Keatley
95 Posted 02/08/2017 at 17:37:28
We all know that many highly-rated young junior internationals do not develop into top-flight regulars; even in recent years we've seen John Lundstram and Ryan Ledson captain England junior teams, and both have now left and are at Oxford United in League One. Luke Garbutt has not nailed down starting berths at Fulham or Wigan in recent loans, and Nathan Holland is now with West Ham after falling behind others in our Under 23 pecking order.

Sending young players out on loan can certainly be the catalyst for first team action, while it can also expose them as not quite top-level quality. I believe that Dowell has the ability to play in our first team, and hopefully this loan should help him build a little more grit and a healthier appetite for the less pleasant parts of the game.

Dave Abrahams
96 Posted 02/08/2017 at 20:23:07
Andrew (#95), Ryan Ledson was offered a new contract at Everton before he took the decision to go to Oxford. He had the belief in himself that he would be better going and playing in Oxford's first team rather than playing U23s football for the next couple of years, he is doing okay at Oxford and I think he has a good chance of getting back into the Premier League.

John Lundstram was recently transferred to Sheffield Utd for £500k so that is a move up for him.

Peter Gorman
97 Posted 02/08/2017 at 22:48:16
Dave, I suspected it was Ledson's choice, is that definitely the case?

I've said before; bumped into some Oxford Utd fans and although Conor McAleny bagged a tidy 10 goals in 18 games, it was Ledson they raved about most.

Terence Tyler
98 Posted 03/08/2017 at 10:45:43
Deal done. 1-year loan.
Andrew Keatley
99 Posted 03/08/2017 at 13:21:57
Dave (#96) – You are spot on, but regardless of the reasoning for players moving on there is still a significant gulf between top-level junior football and top-level first-team football, and many highly-rated young players are not able to successfully navigate the jump. If Ledson manages to play regularly in the Premier League later in his career, then he will have done very well – same obviously goes for Lundstram.

I don't know the ins and outs of the decisions the players or club took, but I don't think either would be knocking on the first-team door either now or longer term; Ledson is tenacious and all-action but (for me) lacks genuine top-level ability, while Lundstram has a great range of passing but is slow around the pitch and lacking in energy.

John Graham
100 Posted 03/08/2017 at 15:57:57
Bill... Finch Farm is in a side road near to / in Halewood not far from Jaguar. You can get a train to Hunts Cross station or to Holly's Road station but you will still need to get a taxi as the only traffic that passes the ground is cars / bikes.

Hope this helps!

Dave Abrahams
101 Posted 03/08/2017 at 16:20:36
Andrew (#99), I think you describe the transition from junior football to senior football very well and I agree, Ryan Ledson wouldn't have been in the first team at Everton now. I think he would have been close, but he chose to take the chance at Oxford. He will be on a good wage, more importantly he is learning the game at a much higher level than the U23s.

As you say, John Lundstram is a different type of player to Ledson, very neat and tidy with good ball-control, good passing ability, but does lack that bit of energy and zest that catches the eye. But again, he is making a good living out of the game and has impressed enough to get into the Championship, so he isn't doing bad at all.

Mike Gaynes
102 Posted 03/08/2017 at 17:19:44
Dave and Andrew, I would draw a comparison with Adam Forshaw, who was a mainstay of our youth programs but made only one appearance with the senior side and was loaned out to Brentford. He eventually joined them on a free and rebuilt his career, winning League 1 Player of the Year and moving up to the Championship with Wigan and Middlesbrough. Finally he made it back to the Premier League last year with Boro and is now the subject of transfer speculation to Brighton.

He as never to break through with us, but still managed to climb to the top flight. So it can be done.

Bill Griffiths
103 Posted 03/08/2017 at 17:27:27
Thank's John, that's a great help.
Peter Gorman
104 Posted 03/08/2017 at 20:38:22
Mike, don't forget young Hope Akpan and his run in the Premier League with Reading via Crawley Town.
Tony Packwood
105 Posted 03/08/2017 at 20:44:57
I've watched Kieran since he was 11. In one game at 11 he took 3 free kicks - all from about 30 yards. He hit the bar with the first, the post with the 2nd and put it in the top corner with the 3rd. The adults watching all agreed that – had Beckham done that, we'd never have heard the last of it.

I doubt Kieran will be the Steven Gerrard type that people look for – he is more of a Hoddle or a Le Tissier; he jogs around the pitch playing accurate returns in 1-2s... but once or twice he will produce a game-changing pass, cross or shot that wins the game.

We are paying £50 mill for Sigurdsson because our current squad can't beat the wall. This lad will put it on any head. He hit the bar in Tanzania from a set play – that suggests that Koeman & Walsh see the potential.

I believe Kieran will take Sigurdsson's place in 2 or 3 years once he's learned his trade. He is an intelligent lad from a good family – his head will not be turned. Beckham never beat anyone – he had a couple of moves then delivered the perfect ball. He will be our Beckham; give him time.
Steve Ferns
106 Posted 03/08/2017 at 20:47:18
Yes. I know Peter Clarke well and you do him an injustice. He was an excellent junior. However, he stopped growing and lacked the physicality needed to be a top class Premier League player.

Nevertheless, he carved out an excellent career and played over 300 games in the Championship. The highlight being a late equaliser in the FA Cup against Chelsea.

I think the lad can be pretty pleased with himself. He went to my school and being three years younger he should be about 35 now.

Dave Abrahams
107 Posted 03/08/2017 at 22:14:02
Mike (102)l agree with you regarding Adam Forshaw, played one half of a Europa League game, impressed most people who saw him that night then was never seen again.

Three guesses who the manager was that night,and who eventually let him go: Dour dull dreary Davie.

Barry McNally
108 Posted 04/08/2017 at 22:03:44
Anyone see our players on loan in action this evening for Sunderland or Forest?
Hugh Jenkins
109 Posted 04/08/2017 at 22:55:55
Barry (109), do you mean, actually saw them play, or just being aware that they did play?

I know that Browning and Galloway both played the full match for Sunderland, but didn't see them play and don't know how they acquitted themselves.

Dowell came on as a sub for Forest, but again, I didn't see him play and don't know how he acquiited himself either.

Bob Butchard
110 Posted 06/08/2017 at 09:20:11
I don't suppose many will remember when Dennis Law was signed on for Huddersfield by another scot, Bill Shankley, he was just out of school, 16 years of age, skinny, slight but talented beyond words. I remember he was put on a diet of steak. Steak for just about every meal if the papers could be believed.

At 20 years of age he was transfered to Man City for a British record fee. The following year Italy's Torino doubled that fee, but he never settled and returned to Man Utd a year later. The rest is history.

He remains to this day one of the finest, most skillful attacking player to have ever graced English football. Makes me wonder how he would be handled today.

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