Kevin Mirallas has expressed his sadness that a move back to Olympiakos was thwarted on transfer deadline day.
The 29-year-old was a surprise omission from the matchday squad at Chelsea last week and he was spotted at Manchester airport prior to the game as he prepared to fly to Belgium ahead of the current round of World Cup qualifiers.
Manager Ronald Koeman admitted that he left Mirallas out of the team because of his attitude, a further deterioration in his standing at Goodison Park having played just 13 minutes of action in the first three League games of the season.
Olympiakos, the team from which the Toffees signed Mirallas in 2012, came in with a proposal to take him on loan for the rest of the season, an option that was blocked by Everton who insisted on a sale only. A similar offer from West Ham was also reportedly knocked back last Thursday for a player who only signed a new three-year contract with the Blues in April.
“I really wanted to come to Olympiakos," Mirallas told Belgian news oulet DH, "and we tried our best to find a deal that would suit everyone, including President Vangelis Marinaki who did everything possible and beyond. But Everton turned a deaf ear.
“I am so sad that I have not been home and I hope that will be the case in the near future.
“I would like to thank all Olympiakos supporters for the many messages they sent me. And they must know that I love their club and, as I said before, one day I will come back to them.”
Reader Comments (170)
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1 Posted 04/09/2017 at 10:15:26
2 Posted 04/09/2017 at 14:40:02
3 Posted 04/09/2017 at 14:46:04
Looks like you've burned your bridges now though. When we do sell you, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
4 Posted 04/09/2017 at 14:49:43
5 Posted 04/09/2017 at 14:49:57
Only consistency you've had, is throwing your toys out the pram.
6 Posted 04/09/2017 at 14:57:23
It doesn't seem that long ago that Spurs were sniffing around and he was making noises about moving on every international break. Seems he's doing it again, but nobody gives a shit this time around.
7 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:04:09
8 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:09:06
9 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:15:36
10 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:19:50
Sell them... and if you can't do that, make them happy and get the best out of them, but FFS don't keep them and piss them off.
11 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:32:49
As a club, there have been signs of progress off the field. So were is the media/communications officer to get out in front of any story and help right the ship?
Basically, come Thursday, Koeman's Presser will just be a farce. Barkley, Rooney, Mirallas and the window.
Everton should set the agenda. Makes three points with Rooney scoring even more important.
A little bit of self destruction at Goodison?
12 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:32:54
I've wanted the club to sell him since the end of Martinez's time as he hardly used him either but hasn't the problem been that no-one has made an offer to take him permanently?
13 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:34:44
14 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:34:52
There will always be mouthy players and players who 'know their own mind' and 'have opinions'. There will always be managers with the 'My way or the Highway' attitude (most of them).
Collins, Young, Vernon and Gabriel, in the end, all fell foul of Catterick's ire... but only when he thought he could do without them and it was all done in private. Which is why Rooney won't get dropped unless he turns into an emotional Barkley-esque big girl's blouse over his latest escapade.
I've mentioned Kev, and the Catt and his fallouts – what about Koeman? Does he have to be how he is to such a degree? He's in a hole here and he needs to stop digging and concentrate on getting the best out of what he mostly bought. He knew the guidelines when he signed... we're not Man City or Chelsea, you just can't throw money at the problem.
You're a £6M/yr coach – start coaching.
15 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:38:29
£50M of talent training with the kids and pissed off by the way they have been treated by a pig-headed manager given free reign by the board. Never mind that the same guy advises Lukaku to go for the benefit of his career, and he didn't fancy Deulofeu.
If Koeman is being paid performance pay based on his management, he will be out of pocket big time and we are in for a tough season. Appalling management by all concerned running the club.
16 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:41:09
The guy just isn't up to competing for a club in the top six or seven. Olympiakos wouldn't cough up the money to buy him, so why not keep him around for the odd cup cameo?
17 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:47:28
It's not as though our £6 million-a-year man is distracting us with glorious football, is it?
18 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:53:30
Mirallas would try the patience of a saint with his inconsistency, but which of our squad has been able to put a full 90 in? The team in its entirety seems incapable of putting together a decent half-hour.
Pissing off the players won't remedy that. We submitted a 25-man squad. We can't afford to be counting any of them out at this stage.
19 Posted 04/09/2017 at 15:58:14
20 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:02:29
Reflects badly on leadership and management, I fear.
21 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:20:55
Depressing, isn't it?
22 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:26:49
23 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:29:28
Can't remember where we finished that season but that game was truly entertaining from those guys, even Moyes getting hyped on the touchline.
Makes the current lot look so staid (so far this term).
24 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:32:27
My hope was that Moshiri would quickly identify the deadwood and dispose of them. Not only has that not happened but, quite the reverse, certain high-earning individuals continue with impunity to build the pyramids of patronisation further down the food chain that allow them to pursue their own agendas unnoticed.
The only people dedicated to NSNO are the paying customers, but reading through various other TW threads over the last few days, we are either too busy hurling insults at each other (some, as Ernie Baywood pointed out, cross the line) or indulging in vulgar misogyny to form any kind of coherent demand that the club as a business ups its game. Which is precisely how they like it.
25 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:32:38
Any issues that attract publicity should be dealt with by the someone else at the club. Director of Football, anybody?
Transfers, contracts (of which he stated he had little to do with) and tabloid stories are not his bag. Nor should they be.
I won't dig him out for that, rather stick to slapping him about for how badly we play footy, plenty of mileage there.
Walsh should be the one making a statement even if it's just no comment. But I wouldn't call him press savvy?
As for the player, Mirallas, he was always too 'me' focused. Sure, he can beat a couple and stick it in the top bin. But ever since the couple of bad hamstring injuries he had, his pace has critically waned.
i really didn't understand why the transfer never happened.
26 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:37:20
Whatever the backstory, the attacking threesome that Koeman used so effectively in the second half of last season comprised Lukaku, Barkley and Mirallas. All three of those players are now unavailable because they want or wanted to leave the club. What weapon are we going to take to gunfights now, Mr Moshiri?
27 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:42:32
But he's not, he's getting shut of players he doesn't rate. Can you argue with his methods? We are all screaming out for a trophy, we all want to see a successful Everton side who can compete in the Champions League. Haven't players such as Mirallas proven they are not good enough for the aspirations of the fans and the manager at this club?
We are under-performing, we've won nothing for 22 years. We can't even compete as equals at certain grounds. So, why would we want to keep the players who have failed to get near a trophy? If Koeman's methods are proven to be a failure, then fine, sack him. At least he doesn't have the excuse that these are not his players.
I'll be honest, I am quickly losing faith with the man, but you can't demand he turns the like of Mirallas into a world-beater at this stage of his career.
28 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:44:32
Or is that solely Ronald's remit?
29 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:49:05
Every international break, we get some shit-nugget about their careers.
Doesn't happen with other nationalities, or it does, they just have more respect.
30 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:51:08
He spends pre-season telling everyone that he is better mentally prepared for the coming season; the season starts and he has one good game and then goes missing for the others; then he seems confused as to why he gets dropped to the bench. Repeat again for another season.
Saying that, I do wish that, at some point during his time at Everton, he had been given a run as our out-and-out striker just to see if he could produce the goods. Unfortunately, it looks like that is never going to happen.
31 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:53:52
32 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:59:28
33 Posted 04/09/2017 at 16:59:52
He's not, you know he's the manager.
34 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:00:15
If the club wanted to get rid of Niasse that badly, why didn't they just pay the agent and draw a line under the issue? And tell us so?
If the club wanted to get rid of Mirallas, why not let him go on loan (subject to arrangement) and tell us so?
What's the club's stance regarding Rooney? Fine, suspension, sacking? Have we got to wait till Koeman's presser on Thursday?
And what was Moshiri doing going on telly, ranting like an incoherent drunken uncle? Actions not words, please, Farhad.
A slick, sharp operation would be giving us the information so we, and the club, can move on.
Just a request; we don't get all the info up here in the Highlands, I was under the impression that Koeman left Mirallas out just for the Chelsea game. I didn't hear anything beyond that. Have I missed something?
So far, his team selections are often baffling and our football has been poor to watch. For me, that's plenty enough ammo of substance to fire at him.
35 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:13:22
36 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:13:31
I still think he has the build, the shot, and ball control to play in that spot. Somebody needs to give him the confidence which he seems to lack.
37 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:14:10
It seems some would rather side with the over-paid prima donnas rather than the bloke trying to bring them back down to earth and impose some discipline.
We aren't playing great football, I know that, but our squad is still filled with players whose ability is to finish 7th. We need quality in still and I was as annoyed as everybody we didn't have a ready-made replacement lined up for Lukaku. Let's get behind the squad of players we have who want to be at the club; sod the rest.
38 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:14:14
39 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:14:47
"So where is the media/communications officer to get out in front of any story and help right the ship?"
The current flood of stories with negative connotations – Rooney, Barkley, Niasse, Mirallas – does seem overwhelming, and such a contrast to the ubiquitous early season feelgood factor... Or is it just the Premier League / Transfer Window soap opera in full gear?
I'm mindful of the same point – about a Master of the Message being an essential prerequisite for the club to progress – being made forcefully and repeatedly by the lads on the Everton Business Matters podcast.
[As an aside, this continuing series, sponsored by the Blue Room, makes for excellent listening to anyone interested in... well, Everton business matters. Highly recommended.]
But I remain to be convinced that any one person in such a role, in this day and age, could possibly control, influence or manipulate any of these four current stories to put Everton in a better light?
Stopping the tabloids from tracking down Laura Simpson's selfies and social links online?
Making any rational sense at all of what passes for Ross Barkley's powers of reasoning?
Talking up the fabulous opportunity Oumar Niasse could now have leading the restructured goal-hungry Everton attack?
Putting a positive spin on Super Kev staying strong for the Blues?
Seriously... it's 2017! Who's gonna believe any of that? Oh wait... fake news... Nevamind!
40 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:24:05
We really need some good news and some of our long term crocks shaping up as they do really seem to take an extra long time to recover. If they were playing for a top US sports team, I'm sure they'd be a lot more advanced in their recovery / availability.
Spurs, Atalanta and Man Utd in 8 days starting Saturday terrifying given the present lull.
41 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:30:29
Our promising transfer window isn't looking that hot now.
42 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:39:05
43 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:39:47
The club can't prevent all of these things, yet the silence is baffling.
They can't/won't tell us everything, but I'd like to know why Niasse and Mirallas are still at the club. One universally derided player who now functions as a convenient cause celebre and another who has trouble and underachievement written all over him.
More importantly, what's the club's stance on Rooney? Plenty of non-EFC friends have asked me today. I was expecting a statement today. I'm not bothered about whether its sugar-coated, just some facts would be good.
Even more important, I'd like to hear something on the plans for the team. I'm glad that Deulofeu has gone and I would have been glad to see the back of Niasse and Mirallas. 'Flair' players or not, would you really pin your hopes on them guiding us to glory? Really? I want to know how he's going to integrate Sigurdsson, Klaassen, Rooney and Sandro and create the pressing team that moves the ball quickly and flexibly. Is he relying on the returning Bolasie and Coleman for pace? Is Vlasic going to be pitched in? What's his role going to be?
I don't expect to hear everything. To me this would be a positive story, with us moving forward with new players who actually want to play for the club..
For me, that's the real issue here. The talented players who have come to the club this summer, who want to be here, who could be a really good team when they're organised well. I want to hear about that.
44 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:41:40
45 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:44:09
46 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:51:05
Sometimes a player needs an arm around the shoulder and if that's not Koeman's style, then he needs to adopt and adapt, something he seems completely incapable of doing on the field, let alone off the field.
We have Calvert-Lewin; Mirallas and/or Niasse might well be needed long before the next transfer deadline day.
47 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:52:32
That is a fair point. I would like to see him as a striker too, as he never seems to quite produce the goods on the wing.
That said, Kev has shown many times, frustration and petulance on the pitch or an attitude when rightly subbed. I think he's a slightly flawed character, and that's why he has never reached his potential.
48 Posted 04/09/2017 at 17:58:32
49 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:00:13
Surely to goodness this isn't true... after all, they are giving our young lads experience and game time to prepare them for the Premier League without ripping the arse out of them for the privilege.
Tell me this is a false report and I am wrong.
50 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:01:27
If he loves the Greeks so much, then why did he come to us? Perhaps he is missing his compatriot?
A moody, inconsistent player. A poor man's Arnautovic.
51 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:03:15
52 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:05:43
Still, seems we have Mirallas, Barkley, McCarthy and Niasse who are cheesed off for one reason or another. Not ideal.
53 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:07:19
Man City, Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool play without a traditional Number 9 and it may be that rather than look to spend millions on a Lukaku replacement we should try players like Mirallas and Barkley as mobile forwards.
Lookman and Calvert-Lewin are the future and I think it is the way to go. The problem is that we have a pedestrian midfield that isn't suitable for getting the ball forward and out wide quickly.
Interestingly I read an article that said Ozil at Arsenal was basically finished now as he is an out-and-out No 10 when there is no requirement for a No 10 in modern football.
54 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:16:56
Coming off the bench, also always a chance of him scoring; probably one of the only players with a bit of flair. Our midfield, other than hopefully Sigurdsson, looks miserable to death – watching Rooney now, he slows the game down like most of our midfield, gets the ball and is static. The rest of the midfield is static passing in little compact no idea compartments no one running off the ball.
Against Chelsea, watch how when one of the Chelsea players got the ball in midfield and the rest of the midfield pushed up, forcing our midfield to drop back. When we got the ball, it was like no-one knew what to do.
Sandro is shite already, I've seen enough of him to see he Isn't good enough yet. Barkley & Mirallas we need right now – at least give the opposition something to think about instead of playing in front of them, clueless and static.
55 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:27:09
56 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:27:24
Everything possible and beyond? Everything it would appear apart from actually buying him for the amount Everton could rightfully ask for him with 3 years on his contract!
57 Posted 04/09/2017 at 18:42:09
59 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:04:50
Koeman needs to do some serious man-management and sort this out as all we have is a 20-year-old and a man whose personal life is falling apart to play up front.
This could be a very messy season unless this silly crap is sorted asap.
60 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:10:10
Perhaps Koeman does as we,ll and that's why he wouldn't sell him!
62 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:23:06
Conversely, look what Vlasic is saying. That's the sort of spirit we need - players who see it as an honour playing for a team with such a rich history.
63 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:24:10
We have had all our established attacking flair players, who are, by definition, not grafters, all either gone or no longer wanted by the manager.
We have a manager who thinks nothing of publicly demeaning individuals, is it any wonder some players don't like his style? (or trust him).
We have three or four creative players that will almost certainly not play for us again while we have no goal threat, no creativity and no penetration.
Where will the goals come from? Why was there no replacement(s) for Lukaku? Why is our manager being allowed to make examples of those he deems not good enough when we have nothing better?
If you consider the probability that someone else in the club was responsible for commercial transfers, not Koeman's fault ifidentified.
When you can't land what you want you play with what you have and get the best out of them, not destroy their confidence and transfer list them or allow them to go. You get the best out of them. Its called pragmatic management, or man management if you prefer.
We have stark communications issues at Everton, always have. The fact it's the manager commenting and making commercial decisions is bad news.
The fact he is actually caused the value of our assets to be cut because of his comments about them, worse still has slurred both Mirallas and Barkley with his comments making clubs think twice about buying them.
This is not about Lost in Translation, its about self interest and poor management. He is not as good as he thinks he is, ( neither our some of our players) but he has to work with them for the good of the club financially. He has failed to do that with his intransigence.
64 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:32:36
65 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:42:45
Tell him if he doesn't sign, then he's getting sold? Played right into the dignified silent one's hands if you ask me.
As for Kevin Mirallas, he told us himself in the summer, that his own family tell him he just doesn't do enough.
Maybe Koeman is not a good manager to play for if your game is about flair, but I honestly don't think a bit of flair on its own is good enough for any team that wants to try and push on; so, on that basis, I don't think Koeman stands alone.
66 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:48:13
67 Posted 04/09/2017 at 19:51:07
Only Lukaku has made any lasting impression on the Premier League and ,even if we had kept him, most fans felt we needed to strengthen in attack. Our attacking options now are Lennon, Calvert-Lewin, Rooney, Sandro and Lookman. There does not appear to be a lot of goals there with three of them showing potential but unproven at this level and two who are past their best.
I think we are weaker up front than at any time in the past six years. Given the amount of money we have spent this year, that is a disappointing state of affairs.
68 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:06:54
He was left out of one game because of his attitude. Happens pretty regularly.
Has the world gone soft? Have I turned into a harsh, nasty man?
69 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:16:10
I think I'm going to get slated for this one, but here goes: Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs here but all successful teams are built on a solid defence. And until you have that, there is little chance of winning anything.
If you doubt this, look at all the really successful teams down the years. Us, Liverpool the Mancs, even Nottm Forest. First requirements are a top keeper (Pickford), two solid centre-halves (Keane and another), and a couple of uncompromising full-backs.
I think Koeman, like all managers who genuinely believe they can win things, is building from the back and, once he has that defensive solidity, will start looking seriously at the attacking options that we all crave.
Rooney et al are just a stop gap. so don't fret too much; I think we're heading in the right direction, slowly but surely. It's a slow frustrating process but achievable. Keep the faith. Remember, it's a privilege to be born blue.
70 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:18:28
Which players has Koeman "publicly demeaned"?
Mirallas is talented, direct and capable of chipping in with a few goals each season. However he has been here five seasons and as others have said, never really been consistent enough or convinced that he's anywhere near the level that he thinks he's at.
Let's not forget too that this is a guy who was called out (publicly demeaned?) by David Moyes in his first year as needing to graft a bit more, improve his stamina and stop calling to be subbed off.
I don't have the stats but would wager he's completed relatively few 90 mins in the four subsequent years, under three different managers, which suggests he hasn't really gotten there yet.
Throw in the Baines penalty incident, the "tackle" on Suarez, the brain-dead red cards against West Ham & Swansea, the various interviews telling all and sundry that he's out the door to a Champions League team, and generally him not wanting to know when the chips are down and it's not that hard to see why few tears will be shed for him when he does eventually leave.
71 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:30:15
Good moves by the manager except Lukaku, who cast himself out.
72 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:38:08
Because he wanted his gateau and also wanted to scoff it. I know modern players are mercenaries, but this takes the plum duff.
73 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:39:58
74 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:42:42
78 Posted 04/09/2017 at 20:52:37
80 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:03:16
Sure, Mirallas doesn't tick every box but he does have a goal threat. Criticise players in private Koeman, don't wash your dirty clothes in public it's never a good idea.
81 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:05:19
When we couldn't close these sales, our buys fell apart too.
82 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:11:58
83 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:21:23
Not that difficult, is it Paul.
84 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:37:43
85 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:45:40
86 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:48:05
She makes the point that Koeman has not exactly excelled when it comes to man-managing, or bringing out the best in attacking players he inherited. Surely you are not denying that? It's a valid point and your attempt to diffuse it by singling out the weakest of several she mentioned doesn't wash. These are not poor players.
Mirallas has scored some wonderful goals for us against top opposition. Deulofeu was good enough for Barça to take back. Barkley is wanted by the Champions and the runners up, and Niasse was scoring as soon as he played for somebody other than Koeman. They're hardly mugs.
It's desperately poor management to hammer home a players shortcomings to him. especially in public. A proper manager will utilise and concentrate on what players can do instead of berating them for what they can't.
87 Posted 04/09/2017 at 21:57:03
My opinion of Kevin Mirallas is he's a bang average footballer who is only interested in himself. I'm not surprised nobody wanted him. He's basically shit and thinks he's God but, more worryingly, he's one of our quickest and most attacking footballers.
Doesn't make good reading having read this back, but I think the club needs to dig itself out of a hole at the moment. Perhaps Saturday will blow away some of my fears. I hope so...
88 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:07:26
89 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:11:45
90 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:17:29
Oh well, it could be worse.
91 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:37:44
He seemed to lose a bit after the Suarez tackle in the Goodison derby, where before then, he tore Liverpool to shreds in that Derby. Strangely as well, the same happened to Jelavic after he collided with the goalpost; he also lost it after that injury.
Mirallas of the past used to take players on, cut inside and let one fly. Now he doesn't even take a player on and that's where his problem lies.
92 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:39:47
Behind the striker, we brought in Klaassen and Gylfi while losing Barkley, Deulofeu and Mirallas. Net position will probably be about £30M after sales in January? I'm not convinced we've done that well there.
93 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:48:09
Koeman was wrong giving Barkley that ultimatum. He was wrong in not giving Niasse a locker. That was very poor management.
For me, Barkley is a talented, frustrating, inconsistent player. I will take my hat off to the manager who gets the best out of him. I think it's more in the player's mind than the several managers he's worked with.
Mirallas has scored some wonderful goals. He's inconsistent, ill-disciplined and isn't going to get any better.
I don't know what's been said and done by both parties in these cases, or how often things have happened.
He praised and criticised Barkley in pressers. Not what I'd do, but at the time, I didn't think it was a big deal, certainly not demeaning. He hasn't 'banished him to the kids'. Barkley played well for a couple of months after he was 'demeaned' and tghen his form dipped again. He picked him in most games last season and can't pick him now because he's injured. He said at the start of the season that he'd be up for selection if he stays.
He said Mirallas was dropped for the Chelsea game. That's it, as far as I'm aware. You and I both know that many managers have done this. Works with some, not with others. I'd rather know what went on before I shout the odds. Talk of him being banished, at this stage, is premature in my book.
Martinez bought Deulofeu. Couldn't get the best out of him consistently. He isn't strong or focused enough. Whenever he got tackled, he'd wave his arm in the air. I don't think he's right for our league and would be more suited to the lower level of pace and physicality you'd get on the continent.
Niasse was derided as garbage by all and sundry when he arrived at the club. So poor the man who paid £14m for him wouldn't play him. I don't know what went on when Koeman arrived, but it would take some volte face by many on here to suddenly declare him right for our club. Why didn't Hull keep him?
This isn't about me saying Koeman is a great manager. He has been poor tactically, his selections have been haphazard and I'm not convinced he's getting his messages across to the players. We'll have to disagree on Barkley, I think he's seen the other three as not good enough, got rid of one, can't get rid of the other two.
I happen to think Sigurdsson and Klaassen were good signings. Sandro clearly has ability and isn't fit yet. Rooney has pleasantly surprised me, on the pitch. This is an opportunity for Calvert-Lewin, Lookman and Vlasic. I'd rather focus on these players, than harp on about an inconsistent player who is injured and apparently wants to leave and two players with little future at the club.
The players concerned are often referred to as flair players. I'd describe them as inconsistent players that have frustrated the other Everton managers they've served under. You could argue that we should expect more from Koeman. I'd argue these players are at a level where they're not going to be good enough if we want to progress.
Where I think we do agree is that Koeman will be judged on his players. He has no hiding place now. I think I know why he bought who he's bought, I'm less confident that he can pull it off, but to me it would be madness to have him spend the money and not give him a chance with his players.
I'm not sure that accusations of demeaning players, when none of us have the full picture, is the best way to go about criticising him, when there is so much more of substance we can use.
I know you know already, but I suspect most of us will be in a position to judge our progress accurately. If there isn't enough, I'll be joining you, but I'll be sticking to where we can see all the evidence, on the pitch.
94 Posted 04/09/2017 at 22:53:52
95 Posted 04/09/2017 at 23:15:20
96 Posted 04/09/2017 at 23:22:13
I don't necessarily expect Koeman to emulate Howie but Kendall inherited some pretty average players when he took over in 1981. I think some posters on here need to reflect on that because it took four years for them to win the league, with some consistently dire football for the first two seasons of his reign.
97 Posted 04/09/2017 at 23:24:20
I think you miss the main thrust though, no matter what you think of the individuals as a manager, that's what you have got to work with and its up to you to get the best out of them until you have better.
So, somewhere along the line, that went out the window because of the bigger picture and forgot next Saturday? He could have easily played Mirallas, Kone and Lennon better than him?? really? come on... no stuffing way... but because he throws his toys out the pram he is transfer listed because of his bad attitude at being dropped..
But I digress just look at the bigger picture for a moment: almost all our attacking forwards gone with no real replacement. How did that happen... and when it looked like happening, don't you think he should have made sure those he had were happy?
I am NOT saying they are great players... I am saying they are better than what we have. In the absence of choice, I would rather have them playing than a growing group of discontentment for the next 4 months.
98 Posted 04/09/2017 at 23:33:00
Sorry, mate he has stuffed this up big time... goals are going to be bloody difficult to find this season and our options are made worse because of his approach (did we have to get rid of all out forwards at the same time?) Did he not recognise that letting Mirallas go would be a problem? That not replacing Lukaku might be an issue?
He should look up the term pragmatic and realise that sometimes you need those you made not rate because you have to. Or do you not see it as a problem? Or perhaps you just see it as coincidence and that all the players concerned are not good enough anyway? Who stepped back and said "Hang on a minute..."?
99 Posted 04/09/2017 at 23:38:58
I suspect that many of the squad will see right through those four in the same way that Koeman seemingly has done. He now seems not to want to squander any more of his time on trying any further to extract what we'd all like to have seen via coaching even before Koeman got here, namely consistently good, productive football. None of those four ever do/did it, year after year in two of those cases.
100 Posted 04/09/2017 at 00:01:41
Out of all the questions answered or not, only one is now certain, this squad has now mostly been assembled or kept on via contract extensions , by Koeman and Walsh. I personally think we undoubtedly have a better squad now, bar Lukaku of course.
My question is how long does he get to turn these players into a winning team? As I'm starting to think the unthinkable , we have a stubborn 1 dimensional manager again , not the heralded tactical thinking Barcalona manager in waiting .
I wonder if Walsh escapes intact, should Ronald fall on his sword.
On a brighter note, I've just watched both Hadjuk matches again to see our newest addition and I must say , even at 19 he looks ready for the 1st team squad. Again I find myself wondering where Ronald is thinking of using him, as he played a central role against us, but his physique, power, pace, and direct running, not without a bit of skill and persistence nous even, is made for cutting in; dare I say it but he looks tailor-made to play wide.
101 Posted 05/09/2017 at 00:11:11
102 Posted 05/09/2017 at 00:22:01
103 Posted 05/09/2017 at 01:09:30
Barkley Moyes didn't play him much; fair play, he was a youngster. Besides his first season under Martinez I would argue Koeman has gotten more out of him than Moyes, Warnock, Martinez and Hodgson.
Kone was never really fit for either Martinez or Koeman, so let go.
Valencia, was a stop gap and not good enough for Bilic.
McGeady Martinez bought him, Martinez banished him.
Deulofeu Could be excellent, but has also been let go by a few clubs and often flattered to deceive.
Mirallas Has been inconsistent throughout his Everton career, but agree he should be tried as a central player.
Niasse I would like to see him given a chance, but wasn't played by the guy who bought him and wasn't bought by the club that loaned him.
Lennon I think Koeman will give him a chance. Last season wasn't ideal for him.
On the subject of Lukaku, he scored more goals under Koeman than in his 3 previous seasons in the Premier League.
Attacking players brought in Rooney, Bolasie, Lookman, Sandro, Calvert-Lewin, Klaassen, Vlasic and Sigurdsson. We still have Lennon and Mirallas, though Barkley looks gone as does Niasse. Plus we have Onyekuru for next season.
We have no idea how many of these guys will perform yet, let's wait and see. This season Rooney, Calvert-Lewin and Sigurdsson have already made their mark.
I will give Koeman until New Year before I make any real judgement on him.
It is worth considering that at this time last year, Calvert-Lewin, Holgate and Davies had just been promoted from the U23s. Who knows who will be promoted this season?
I do feel the squad is unbalanced, I do think Lukaku will be sorely missed, but again let's see what unfolds! We had a decent team with Cahill and Fellaini swapping the centre-forward position during games, a good coach should be able to adapt. It is now up to Mr Koeman to prove his worth.
104 Posted 05/09/2017 at 01:24:32
You make a lot of pertinent points!
105 Posted 05/09/2017 at 03:41:42
Koeman converted the team to a one-trick pony Rom or nothing. So, while Rom scored a few more, we had no threat from anywhere else in the team.
This season, we lost Rom and signed a few attacking goal-scoring options. Looked good... except we never got the player to lead the line and bring it all together and we're still picking teams that require the focal point up front... just without the player that's needed.
106 Posted 05/09/2017 at 03:48:45
As for the claim that Koeman is systematically exiling all our flair players like Barkley, Mirallas, Deulofeu, etc... well, that may be true, but I think the far more pertinent adjective when it comes to those guys is "inconsistent."
107 Posted 05/09/2017 at 06:34:57
It's all very well to say they have failed under successive managers but that simply isn't true. Barkley was introduced by Moyes when he was barely out of school, hardly failing; he was brilliant before Martinez unravelled.
These players have been unlucky with managers, Moyes spent the time he had with them consolidating a reputation which would give him a shot at the big time. Martinez did get a tune out of them, but drowned himself and his team with his confused philosophy.
What is really telling is that we have not seen these players produced the individual moments of brilliance we know they are capable of since Koeman took the helm. The chances of them finding consistency were virtually nil. Koeman made it clear from day one that he was going to start with eight defensive players in every game, with Lukaku being guaranteed a spot. That left two places up for grabs.
Contrary to popular opinion, today's modern footballers do know what time it is. All the players mentioned (plus another five or six) knew the managers inflexibility meant they were always going to compete for just two places. For much of last season Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, Williams, Gana, Schneiderlin knew they only really had to stay healthy to be guaranteed a place. That hasn't really changed.
People like Calvert-Lewin and Davies were propelled up the pecking order because they were willing to play anywhere. Neither offered any sort of consistency going forward, but their willingness to sacrifice their own game and defend for their lives was much to Koeman's liking.
People are wanting to defend Koeman by pointing out the shortcomings of the players he has alienated, but they need to look at the shortcomings of the players who have pleased him. We already know Gana and Schneiderlin will not contribute much going forward. Sandro and Klaassen have less ability than those who they have come to replace.
We go into this season heavily reliant on a kid who Koeman thought wasn't good enough to play up top last season. He will be desperately hoping Calvert-Lewin can emulate the last guy by scoring enough goals to put lippy on what is the ugliest of bulldogs.
108 Posted 05/09/2017 at 07:15:01
109 Posted 05/09/2017 at 07:32:34
This possibility, combined with the type of ego that a professional player may be inclined to have, does not lead me to be surprised at all by his comments,
As for being "demeaned" by the club, we should sue him for his performances .
110 Posted 05/09/2017 at 07:41:53
111 Posted 05/09/2017 at 07:46:46
112 Posted 05/09/2017 at 08:34:22
He is emblematic of how average we have been as a club. He is not the future.
113 Posted 05/09/2017 at 08:38:13
"He is not the future." Get paid.
114 Posted 05/09/2017 at 08:54:07
The only person, who I heard really criticise Barkley in public was Peter Reid on Sky after the Merseyside derby at Anfield and he was 100% correct (imo).
Paul @93, too long for me having just woke up, but Darren knows more than anyone that Everton needed better players to really push on. He just doesn't think that Koeman has signed any?
115 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:08:07
I never mentioned the word flop!
It's arguable, but Koeman improved Barkley's all round game from the previous two seasons.
What about the other players I mentioned? I am not a Koeman apologist, I just think it is too early into the season for people to be throwing the towel in on him.
116 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:16:33
If you do, that doesn't make you an 'apologist'. Same as if you don't, that doesn't make you a whingeing negative poster.
117 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:19:59
118 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:21:35
Looks like our Under-23s will be pretty strong with them two!
119 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:32:04
I'm not being negative, just realistic... we need pace and threat, and it's not there.
120 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:33:58
121 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:40:07
Your post was a winner.
122 Posted 05/09/2017 at 09:48:51
Heart and application, definitely – it's what's so frustrating about him (imo). I've seen him do most things on a football pitch. Win headers, then shit-out of headers, win tackles, then shit-out of tackles, go past people like they are not there, and then switch flanks immediately.
The most frustrating thing about Kevin Mirallas, to me, is that he doesn't lack ability, he just doesn't work hard enough at putting it all together. I think he's ill-disciplined, and if he doesn't get his act together soon, then only when he finishes playing, will he realize how good he could have actually been?
I lost count of the away games I went to, and people who only saw the "highlights" telling me that Mirallas had a good game. It's a 90-minute game, I'd think, and this kid doesn't put it in, nowhere near enough for his team.
123 Posted 05/09/2017 at 10:55:30
Koeman is a lucky man. He's been given a budget to rebuild the team in his way. Something we haven't had for way too long. He decided to take a look at the squad and was criticised for it. In my view, quicker action here might have kept Lukaku. Some players have been moved out and more will follow. The only departure I regret is Lukaku.
Here's my take on what Koeman is aiming at. I'll start off with Darren's favourite: the back four with two centre-mids in front. Which has worked well for the last two Champions. That leaves four players, so I think he's going for players who can interchange and move the the ball quickly. Let's say, permutations of Sigurdsson, Rooney, Klaassen, Lookman, Sandro, Davies, Vlasic and yes, Barkley. That's eight players.
With that group you have a combination of width, skill, goals, nous and set-piece ability. I would have all of them in my team ahead of Mirallas, Niasse and Deulofeu. I'm hoping the pace of Coleman and Bolasie will give us more options. Topped off with a focal point striker who brings everyone else in and scores goals. Calvert-Lewin can do it, but can he do it consistently? He'll save us a fortune if he does. The 'recruitment team' failed to get a more experienced striker, which was a failure.
So, I think there's plenty in these players to work with. I have concerns about Koeman's ability to communicate his ideas, but that may be less of an issue with 'his' attacking players. We'll see.
In this instance, for me, in the long term, it is better to focus on the players I mentioned, rather than the ones who haven't been good enough and are unlikely to get better.
It's now down to Koeman to coach and organise them into an effective team.
124 Posted 05/09/2017 at 11:23:18
125 Posted 05/09/2017 at 12:21:29
126 Posted 05/09/2017 at 12:30:09
We all agree, however, that something is missing in offence right now that could make the difference in the tough games coming up. Mirallas is not the answer and Sandro needs a few more games before we can really judge him.
Calvert-Lewin is progressing nicely but may still be a used as a sub for now.
127 Posted 05/09/2017 at 13:00:22
I must say that, although Mirallas is inconsistent, he is a better option than Lookman at the moment. Lookman, along with Davies, seems to be struggling. A few games for U23s would help them.
128 Posted 05/09/2017 at 13:20:56
I use to tear my hair out at Moyes's unexplainable tactics and team selections. Martinez's first season was a breath of fresh air until he was exposed as a one trick pony! I am now getting the same feelings with Koeman! He seems to have blackouts before the big games. Remember him putting Pennington in the derby?
This shouldn't be! He is payed huge sums of money to get tactics and selections right. With the technology that is available to him and the staff to scrutinise and suss out the opponents, there should be no excuse for getting it wrong.
I have a feeling he is already losing the dressing room. He hangs players out in public, when he should be having talks with them in private. They should be able to talk with him about their own situations, but he seems to put himself above them! Not good, I feel!
129 Posted 05/09/2017 at 13:31:52
I agree we've got the players to do something effective, including decent football with quick passing movements. The issue now is (as Tony @128 mentions) whether Koeman can do the organisation and tactics.
130 Posted 05/09/2017 at 13:40:04
131 Posted 05/09/2017 at 14:04:07
One of the problems is that he was left out of the team for a long time by Roberto and never really seemed to get back after that. We don't know whats gone on but he has upset Koeman, perhaps it's because he can't get a game so it's a bit like a vicious circle. He's not our worse player by any means and can do a strikers job as Christine points out.
Personally, I also feel a bit sorry for Niasse, not really given a chance, goes to Hull and scores against Liverpool. Our main priority in the transfer window was a striker; good to see Sandro and Wayne but now we are short. Anybody else think that Wayne has been overplayed when perhaps Kevin could have been brought in to give him a rest? Sandro is good but not fit to play the role he was asked to do against Chelsea so he looked poor.
Letting Dowell go looks increasingly like poor judgement; if players are available, make use of them.
132 Posted 05/09/2017 at 14:32:30
What role did Sandro play against Chelsea, Neville? That seems to have escaped my memory.
137 Posted 05/09/2017 at 14:57:44
No complaints on the front 3 of Mirallas, Lukaku and Barkley from me, it was the defence that needed serious remedy.
Mirallas was rightly pissed-off when hooked at Old Trafford last season; he was the best player on the park that evening, in my opinion.
He was close to getting 2 goals against Ruzomberok this season; always an attacking threat, always tries to make things happen, offers much needed pace.
He worked well with Darron Gibson few years back, a player who could actually see a pass, and for all our midfield numbers one we still haven't really replaced.
He works well centrally, times his runs well; he's still better than what we currently have wide.
Koeman is falling short at present; driving out Mirallas is another backward step.
138 Posted 05/09/2017 at 15:11:02
"Koeman is known for his lack of man-management skills".
By who? Where the hell did you dig this up from.
I see constant praise of Koeman by the players. Keane even stating that he had already improved his game. Other players saying they came because Koeman was the manager.
The guy knows more about top level football than most of us collectively.
If we just get behind "the Project" and stop carping halfway through a complete change, then we might see some light at the end of the tunnel.
For what its worth I like Kevin Mirallas but Koeman is building something which doesn't allow for egos or tantrums at not liking decisions. It's called 'management' and, believe it or not, he's good at it.
139 Posted 05/09/2017 at 15:21:19
Now, he still tries to do this, but every premier league defence has his number. They know he won't go outside so they block the shot and let him play the pass across the pitch to a defensive player and the move loses all momentum.
Kev is just too predictable and he needs new surroundings.
140 Posted 05/09/2017 at 15:42:27
Please see Koeman's time at Valencia, then you will see a clear example of where the hell that is dug up from.
As for players saying they came here for the manager. You can file that under the standard PR line that is rolled out for every single player signing at every single club.
Wait you didn't think those were actually the player's authentic views on why they signed at a club, did you? Oh please tell me that you knew the player interviews are well orchestrated by paid professionals at the club.
141 Posted 05/09/2017 at 15:44:06
142 Posted 05/09/2017 at 15:51:45
I think that we are hearing the platitudes and sound bites from his "picks".
I'd suggest that, in Mirallas, Barkley and Niasse, we have seen an inability to communicate, coach or engage with what may well be the more challenging elements of his squad.
We do not have the resources for a complete rebuild so he will have to manage and get the most from what he has. I'd suggest in this key area of any new "project", the transition phase, he has demonstrated some weaknesses.
143 Posted 05/09/2017 at 16:02:51
Martinez would wax lyrical and blow smoke up the proverbial and just thought all was great, but wasn't honest or realistic enough.
Koeman seems to be berated for telling it how it is and being too blunt.
You just can't please everyone.
One thing to consider with Martinez and Koeman is that they aren't native English speakers. Martinez would overuse the word 'phenomenal' because none native speakers of a language have a comfort zone of words they fall back on, even if they do have a number of other synonyms in their vocabulary. With Koeman, his lack of English means he struggles to contextualize certain things and thus comes across as probably more blunt than he is.
I am just saying it is worth considering these things!
Anyways, for me Koeman needs until the New Year before we can praise or condemn him in my humble opinion.
144 Posted 05/09/2017 at 16:13:09
145 Posted 05/09/2017 at 16:13:19
If you were to stack up the first season of Koeman, Martinez and Moyes (first full season), then there is similarities.
Of course Martinez's was by far the best, not only a far superior points total but much the better football, and a 5th place finish. Moyes's first season came after he took over 2/3 of the way through the season with us in the relegation zone and took us to 7th, but we missed out on Europe. It was a nice surprise after looking like we were returning to relegation dogfights or worse.
Koeman has done what we all expected. If anyone did not think we should be at least 8th, then why the hell was Martinez sacked? He's simply returned us to our usual "best of the rest" position.
For me, it's all about this season. Will he prove a one-season wonder, like Martinez? Or will it be wildly inconsistent like early Moyes (that was the year we finished just above the drop and Rooney left in the summer just after the Euros)?
The difference from the others is he's changed the whole side. There's few left, which is sad in some ways, as we have been used to a lot of long-serving players who get the club and fans.
146 Posted 05/09/2017 at 17:15:52
How long does he get to complete the project? ... the whole 3 years? What if by January we are in the bottom 6, with a minus goal difference, because Ronald persists with the defensive mindset?
Has he got the perfect excuse to fall back on, now we never got his target man, and so buying one then buys him time? I'm pretty sure the board would stand by him, but what about the fans?
Don't forget, we only lost once at home last season, so our manager hasn't seen how unforgiving, brutal, harsh and downright toxic Goodison Park can be once the fans turn against you, and for a manager, there really is nowhere to hide.
I'm cautiously optimistic we will be 7th again, but I do seriously worry what these players will be like should things start to turn sour. This season really does pose a lot of questions and they all start with the manager.
147 Posted 05/09/2017 at 17:27:19
Thank you for your comments, nice that I got your attention.
Sandro? Left upfront on his own with no support when not fit, Rooney had played too many games already that day so knackered, why wasn't he taken off, loads of other selection/tactical problems I have already mentioned before. I like Sandro but rather like Davy Klaassen needs time, remember Mo Fellaini?
Can I also remind you of Sandro's goal v Sevilla? Why don't we see more of Lookman? He completely changed the game v Sevilla when he came on.
Nice one Darren, agree with most of what you said, I also feel that letting Deulofeu go was a mistake to Barcelona? such a poor inconsistent player.
148 Posted 05/09/2017 at 17:44:25
Sky after 3 games has analysed, using Opta data, speed of attack and no surprise to say we are joint-bottom. It looks at how quickly upon gaining possession the ball gets to the opposition box.
149 Posted 05/09/2017 at 17:47:33
150 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:00:24
"I'll start off with Darren's favourite; the back four with two centre-mids in front, which has worked well for the last two champions."
That's like comparing Koeman with Alex Ferguson because they both played with full backs. Somebody else tried to make this ridiculous comparison a couple of weeks back and within a day they were given a graphic example as to why there isn't one.
Chelsea drawing 1-1 at Tottenham and coming under the cosh. Their goalie picks it up and throws it out to Kante who is furthest forward and offering himself as the outlet ball. He drives forward: 1-2 Chelsea. Could you, even in your wildest, imagine Gana or Schneiderlin doing that?
The are not centre-mids they are out and out defensive mids. They don't have a Reid and Bracewell "one go and the other stays" understanding. With these two, one always stays and so does the other. The only time these two cross the half-way line is when we play at Old Trafford or Stoke... or somewhere else where the dressing room is in the corner.
I must admit your fanciful description of Koeman's style of play made e laugh "That leaves four players" . . In you dreams, Paul. Two of them will be ordered to track back and help The tackling machines guard the back four.
When Champions like Leicester and Chelsea drove at the opposition, they were at their jugular in seconds... our drives take so long, I keep expecting the ministry of transport to step in and order our forwards to take a tacho break
151 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:08:11
And Chelsea did play the double pivot or two out-and-out defensive mids, as you call them, it is just they got forward a lot more. Kante and Matic both played 34 Premier League games last season, and you cannot call them anything other than defensive midfielders.
152 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:15:19
153 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:19:03
154 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:39:14
I fear this manager just hasn't got the courage to set us up without worrying about the opposition. 'The Dutch Moyes' looks more accurate by the game I'm afraid. You won't win anything like that, Ronny lad.
155 Posted 05/09/2017 at 20:46:39
156 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:06:35
Fuck me, Gana must have done a John Bailey and scored from his own half against Hadjuk two weeks ago.
157 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:11:37
158 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:19:20
Jags lacks height and thumps the ball hopefully forward, and Williams lacks height and pace and thumps the ball in a similar way. Both are designed for a backs-to-the-wall kind of rearguard action and have some marvellous attributes in reading the threats and putting their bodies on the line to save the day. Alas, neither of these guys is going to jog out and play a tidy pass.
Our defence sits too deep and sucks our defensive mids back and thus slows our play and deprives quick ball to our attack. Surely Koeman will be looking for a tall, left-footed centre-back who can play football.
159 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:22:01
Some people are so biased they would want to prove white is black.
Besides the goal against Hadjuk, Gana has got into a number of goalscoring opportunities and if people watched the game instead of reading useless statistics or inventing man-management syndrome where it doesn't exist, they would see Koeman berating the players for not getting forward.
For the record Koeman inherited an aging, tired, demotivated and disorganised squad with no discipline at all.
If people think you can wave a magic wand and produce world class football and be top of the league after 12 months in the job, they are very deluded.
160 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:24:54
161 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:28:53
Sigurdsson, Klaassen, Davies, Rooney, Barkley... all vying for one spot.
I'm not calling for Koeman's head, but we've seen some terrible decisions made the last couple of months.
162 Posted 05/09/2017 at 21:33:42
Is Holgate the centre back playing wing back? If so, I think you could make an argument that he's a better fullback (not wingback) than centre back right now. He's not big enough or wide enough to play centre half against a top side. His heading seems suspect.
However, I'm with you. I think he has the attributes of a top defender, and if we play a back three, he should be in it, not both Jags and Williams. If it's a back 4, I can forgive him playing right back, but there's no excuse for him playing as a wing back.
163 Posted 05/09/2017 at 00:06:04
Well, that's 4 wingers! Add Mirallas to that, well, that is 5! We couldn't keep hold of Deulofeu as he had a buyout clause and McGeady just hadn't done it.
Early days; we improved a lot last season, let's see where this season takes us. Yes, we haven't been imaginative in some games, but in the game against Split, Koeman played Lookman on one wing, Mirallas on the other.
Early days! In fact 3 of the 7 games this season have had wingers starting, some of the other games wing backs, in which Davies was one and did well.
Has Koeman made mistakes? Yes. But some of the things levied at him seem a bit harsh from my point of view!
As previously mentioned, this time last year, Calvert-Lewin, Davies and Holgate weren't considered Premier League ready. Now? Who knows who will be unearthed from the U23s this season?
Patience is key for me!
165 Posted 06/09/2017 at 01:36:52
You have a chance if you've got Messi, Xavi and Iniesta popping balls around the box, but even they had Dani Alves et al on the overlap making space. If you don't have wingers then surely you MUST have quality wing backs hugging the touch line. We've got Mason Holgate! A centre back... defensive full back at best.
Oh for the days when Leighton Baines wasn't afraid of swinging a cross in. God knows what Martinez did to that lad. Went from best attacking wingback in the league to someone who has no interest in a forward pass. Probably because there's nobody ahead of him, mind you.
166 Posted 06/09/2017 at 02:55:56
That leaves Lennon and Bolasie. Yes, they are both wingers, but Bolasie is very unorthodox.
167 Posted 06/09/2017 at 04:02:02
Barnes and Waddle in the England 1990 side were played as wingers but in the context of a back 3 and no wing backs and this was a formation that England stumbled upon during the tournament.
When people say "winger" now they really mean wide forward/wide midfielder Steven and Sheedy were wide midfielders rather than "wingers" in the Dave Thomas mould and scored a lot more goals than Dave. Kanchelskis was a wide forward.
In this context, Mirallas and Lookman are wide forwards but I would still call them wingers, whilst accepting that they are not touchline-huggers of the type you describe.
168 Posted 06/09/2017 at 04:27:10
169 Posted 06/09/2017 at 06:54:50
Have we really got people using games against second-rate European opposition in and attempt to refute the irrefutable or demonstrate how bold the manager is? That might meet with the approval of others who can see no wrong in him such as those who read "constant praise of the manager by players".
The point is once again lost on some. I'm talking about games against opposition Koeman is afraid of (everyone in the Premier League) I even name premiership grounds to make it clear,
This was a good serious debate, one which up until now had somehow escaped the usual apologetic pap often served up in the absence of any real defence.
I'd be interested to see examples of this "constant praise" of Koeman... especially from players who have already played a season for him. I'd be even more interested in examples of the goal efforts from Gana at the grounds of Premier League opposition. They wont be forthcoming of course. They only exist in the heads of the grass-skirted ones.
170 Posted 06/09/2017 at 07:00:13
It was just to point out you saying Gana didn't get over the half way line. And to show you were wrong.
172 Posted 06/09/2017 at 07:06:48
My point is 100% correct.
173 Posted 06/09/2017 at 07:11:43
I will have to disagree with you I am afraid. Suffice to say the late, great, Rex Makin would be proud of that one.
174 Posted 06/09/2017 at 08:32:23
I seem to remember our goal against Stoke starting from a forward run from Gana. Maybe I was dreaming.
Still, it is from a sample of two and of course, they should get forward more often and more quickly.
As I said, we'll see what, if anything, changes.
175 Posted 06/09/2017 at 09:02:58
You make some good distinctions there about what is considered a winger or not. Pienaar for example would have been considered a winger, but his cutting inside allowed Baines to go outside. Indeed Sheedy and Steven wouldn't be most people's idea of a conventional out and out winger, nor Kanchelskis and a myriad of others I could mention at Everton and elsewhere.
I also think there is a perception issue. If a 4-man defence is played then immediately the full-backs are not wingbacks, which I find blatantly untrue. It depends on how you set up your midfield to a large extent. How many times have we seen Coleman and Baines in advanced positions whilst operating in a 4 man defence? The same was true of the great 80s teams, and a number of other Everton line-ups. Did Gary Stevens operate as just a defender?
As for Lookman, I have seen him operate as a touchline hugger and also come inside too. Both roles can be carried out in the one match and are not necessarily exclusive to one another.
176 Posted 06/09/2017 at 09:11:06
But that would be boring too.
177 Posted 06/09/2017 at 11:20:52
I really worry about the mindset of this squad right now and what the newbies will be thinking. With Mirallas, I suspect he'd have gone last January had Bolasie been playing, which he probably knows.
As for everyone complaining about our attacking threat being blatantly ripped apart, I don't know about that!!! Apart from Rom, who we all slated regularly for everything bar his goals, player-wise we have added a lot more attacking quality.
Sandro, Rooney, Vlasic, Klaassen, Sigurdsson have all been added, with Calvert-Lewin, Lookman, Lennon and Bolasie when fit all look better equipped than the fab 4 being replaced.
My only concern is the tactics.
178 Posted 06/09/2017 at 15:06:18
I was not complaining either. Obviously you misread what I wrote!
179 Posted 06/09/2017 at 15:29:17
Now, if we'd got those new signings and kept Lukaku, that would have been exciting.
180 Posted 06/09/2017 at 22:21:05
However, this time i'm going to stick my neck out and back my claim: Apart from his goals, every Evertonian has at one time or another slated Lukaku.
Think about nearly every away game last season, the complete downing of tools in Roberto's last 8 games, the penalty misses, that whole semi-final, the complete and utter disrespect and disdain shown to us everytime he went on international duty, all the posturing and posing with Pogba whilst still our player, lack of touch, lack of movement, useless hold up play, no effort and self serving..
These are just the views I can remember. Undoubtedly we will miss his goals. They will be replaced eventually but Lukaku won't be missed or remembered for anything positive bar 53 goals.
Come on, Stan, admit it we've all slagged Romelu Lukaku!
181 Posted 07/09/2017 at 23:37:09
182 Posted 08/09/2017 at 09:28:37
Keep your mouth shut and earn the huge wages you are getting. A lot of us have had enough of your constant whinging and moaning be a man for once. You might find that hard, but once you try, you will find it is quite easy to think of others instead of yourself all the time.
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