Panorama to investigate Usmanov's links to Everton

Can it get any worse.

Usmanov gave a gift to Moshiri. Moshiri cashed it in then bought a stake in us with the money. As it was a gift, Moshiri owned it from that point onwards and could do with it as he pleased. Or am I missing something?

The training ground sponsorship is another matter though .

Still, could be worse, at least we don't play in red...COYB.

The way things are going we'll be playing in the local park.

Why oh why oh why can't we ever catch a break.

As if being on nights isn't bad enough, I read this during my break.

The Premier League conducted a rigorous due diligence process before signing off Moshiri’s Everton purchase and is confident that he used his own money.

I wonder were the "documents" came from though. Perhaps someone doesn't like Usmanov.

Having said that I have always held the view that Usmanov was somehow involved in Moshiri's move on Everton - and I hope he is.

The USM sponsorship is a more tangible bone of contention but you would have thought that Everton did their due diligence over that deal and any potential conflict of interest.

Dodgy owners, corrupt officals, the fucking F.A..HAAAA. FIFA. The whole thing is one big con! Some will say...ooooo if we go to the championship the club will die, ive got news for you, we died 23 years ago and we will continue dying a slow death with kenwright running the show. Coyb indeed.

Where were the investigations relating to the activities of Karl Oyston at Blackpool? Or how about the Glazers taking over at United?

Or, one would have hoped, an investigation into the Russian involvement in the US Presidential elections, or indeed the source of North Korea's nuclear weapons?

Or closer to home, how about gender inequality in pay at the BBC?

Pissing away tax payers money.

You don't just give multi millions to someone!
Sponsorship can be and is a form of advertising, but they will ask the question why Everton?

I cant see that any good will come out of this, only the opposite.

Makes my choice of Allardyce if needed also less likely to happen now I would say.

If BK had anything to do with the due diligence it probably involved him making sure he didn't live in a one bedroom flat.

It probably is nothing, but after years of disappointment and false dawns nothing will surprise me with regards this club.

As for USM Finch Farm I think we would have a very strong case to say everything was done in the public eye (it's a sponsorship deal after all not brown paper bags in a car park) and if anyone had a problem with it then it's a bit late now.

This is just the BBC putting a story together for people to watch, that's their job after all. It won't go further than the 'off' button and have Reds claiming foul no doubt for a while (if not driven by them in the first place .).

On the upside it might be the last straw for Usmanov to finally give up on Arsenal and put his money into us with Moshiri, just like he did at Arsenal in the first place. The story could ultimately be the beginning of the Usmanov era at Everton, who knows. Not me, that's for sure, and I doubt the BBC either.

Unfortunately EFC is run on parochial lines more akin to some ex Soviet tin pot dictatorship or the current American presidency. I call it “Meet the Fokkers” - the Fokkers being friends of Kenwright. The nepotism that is rife at the club ensures a “we’ll always do what we’ve always done” mentality. There is no meritocracy at Goodison, in fact just the opposite, people with new ideas, people who could bring about change for the better are actively discouraged.

Over the 7 years I was able to observe at close hand the inner workings of the club from my position as a casual employee in a senior role I became increasingly dismayed at the lack of competence and ambition for the club shown by people occupying important places in the hierarchy. Each of the people I’m thinking of was very ambitious for himself and herself, each had been “nominated “ to their job on the basis of being a PLU - people like us- and each was allowed to build their own empire within so long as they did nothing to rock the big boat.

I walked away on my own terms when I decided that I could no longer associate myself or the values that I thought my club stood for with the sheer greed of employees who are using Everton Football Club as a vehicle for their own financial and social advancement.

Moshiri has no idea what’s going on. He and his friends might be investing but what they are investing into is a rather private and exclusive club within a Club over which they have no insight or control.

Farhad:
Link

Vic:
Link

It was probably that friend of Dentists and Architects, the delusional Graham Lister that leaked on the documents.

Graham Lister:
Link

A game of high stakes one upmanship going on between extremely powerful and proud men.

Makes me wonder whether Kroenke had a spanner thrown into the Giroud deal . Offered Giroud more money/guarantees and bonuses to stay at the very moment he was about to sign for Everton.

Unless he suddenly develops the passion that we have for our club, the commitment to NSNO, he’ll be happy to see Everton merely as an investment. The only thing that will trouble him at all is the risk to his investment if it drops out of the top tier. I hate that EPL stuff!

So, I suppose you believe what you want to. We are down at the moment and it is only natural to assume we are guilty of dodgey dealings given the way we perceive BK does things. I always thought it odd that Usmanov had put money into Finch Farm but surely that is too obvious - it’s not as if we are trying to hide anything when it is called USM Finch Farm.

This may actually turn out well for EFC, particularly if it is linked to Kroenke in some way and Usmanov decides enough is enough and invests in us instead.

Meanwhile, I suggest we stop getting overly excited until we have more facts.

There will be lots of dramatic music, jerky camera work, murky lighting, and muffled sound. There will be several references to Aystollah Khomeini (Iran, y'know) and probably few to Borat (they didn't quite remember that a) it was a comedy and B) it was about Kazakhstan - it's all the sameplace isn't it?)

There will be lots of unconnected references to "Secret memos" and"meetings in Moscow hotels"and the entire thing will be drivel that a real newspaper man like Andrew Neil would have rolled up and inserted in the authors as they left the building very rapidly.

BBC "jounalism" is sub Beano stuff these days.

Anyway, I hope it all pisses old Usmanov right off; and he then buys the shares off Kenwright and Jon Woods and we get him on our board...and get rid of them!

It's the BBC in the words of Jonesy, "don't panic", as Charlie says "sub Beano".

.. then again Kenwright and Elstone. The only surprise is that Kenwright has been previously 'investigated' or 'outed' Panorama style.

Usmanov and Moshiri will have a pretty decent legal team onto it if it’s based on unsubstantiated heresay and unnamed whistleblowers who may have ulterior motives.

We may even get the BBC to buy us a new striker etc etc , with the compo.

I just don’t believe someone would give that amount of money away for nothing. Either Moshiri seems to be a straw man for USM or the money was a loan. Either way the ultimate source of funds that paid for Moshiris Everton stake seems USM. The additional sponsorship of FF always seemed a bit dodge as well.

All in all doesn’t really look too clean. Then again the whole industry is a sess pit. From FIFA to UEFA to the respective FAs. Far too large a gravy train for anyone to want to derail, many many faces in the trough.

This will eventually lead to nothing, just like every other investigation and revelation of corruption in the game, of which there have been quite a few in recent years.

Too much money sloshing around for anything meaningful to change anytime soon. When the people at the top who make the rules are themselves corrupt, nothing will change until the money runs out.

Everton will go on as normal with BK still there.

Gerrard 23 - that’s exactly how I’ve imagined Everton to be run. Full of yes men happy to take the cash for a cosy life. The likes of BK and Elstone need to be driven out but BK would never let that happen whilst he can still draw breath. He’ll be around for many years still.

My biggest hope is that this is about people trying to get rid of Usmanov, out of Arsenal, but as I said, it’s best to watch before trying to make any sensible comments.

Best possible outcome; BPB gets sent to Fat Farm, before doing a stretch in nick; sharing a cell with Raymond the Bastard who loves Blood Brothers.

Koeman follows him, having been proved a fraud, then he and Martinez, are forced to pay every penny of their compensation back.

Steve Walsh is given every issue of Pannini Collections to enable him to spot some real talent!

As a few have already stated, football is corrupt from top to bottom so wtf is going to get all upset about a “gift”? UEFA? Fifa? Scudamore? Have they ever taken actions against dodgy owners? Bernard Tapia of Marseille in the early 90’s(?) might have been the last one.

Moshiri is an international accountant who knows where to bury the money (and bodies) and I’m sure, apart from some embarrassment, he has this covered. Now if the rs toffs at the bbc (and it’s swarming with them) have something it had better be rock solid as you don’t want to mess with the Iranian/Russian mob. Beware you pimply faced fuckers!

Fact, we thought Mr Moshiri was going to pump a hundred million into the team this year. Fact, he has barely spent £40m and would have spent zero had Ross gone.

Fact, we thought Koeman was the real deal. Fact, he wasn’t and has merely added to the decline under Martinez.

Fact, we thought Steve Walsh would unearth some low cost bargains who would go on to make their name in a successful side. Fact, he hasn’t unless you count Sandro which you probably won’t

Fact, we thought that after a lifetime wait it was here, the moment we kicked on, the moment we smashed the glass ceiling, captured top four finishes on a regular basis, played attractive football and secured ownership that actually seemed to think you didn’t demonstrate your amazing professionalism by playing schoolyard games with the anchor on a dodgy sky tv programme. Fact, we’ve lost another decade and are witnessing the worst and quickest decline in our history, mismanagement on a scale never ever thought possible even at this club.

Fact, many of us will be Goodison on Sunday bellowing our hearts out in a display of utter desperate loyalty because it’s what we do and who we are. Fact, we deserve so much better but in our world that will never be the reason we actually get it. Instead we have to hope we touch lucky in all sorts of ways and personally I’m holding my breath but you never know, strangers things have happened elsewhere, Trump runs America, May is still PM, people voted for Brexit cos they believed the NHS would get a £350m windfall and Boris and Farage spoke the truth, Craig Shakespeare would keep his job at Leicester and people thought we should sell Lukaku as he was too rude and we’d replace his 20/25 goals a season with a collective scoring storm and not need to worry about failing to replace him oh, and stranger than anything above, some folk on ToffeeWeb thought the last two transfer windows were “fantastic” because we got rid of deadwood.

Yep stranger things have happened than Everton FC getting lucky and giving a brilliant fan base a team it deserves. Now would be a very good time for a Kevin Brock moment.

There will be some initial noise and some press bollocks before it's all brushed away. The Premier league will certainly not want to be investigating their own incompetence, if there is anything shady.

This is what modern football is about, of course, and puts the hilarious denunciations of Allardyce on here into perspective.

Mark 57, Derek 53 may be right about BK doing a stretch based on your facts! Nah, this is Everton where nothing good happens.

Only us.

I am convinced the truth will come out one day about this chancer, and the fact he wouldn't even speak to City's owners when they were looking for a club. This thread will soon be polluted by his 'supporters' who will point to Villa as some sort of warped defence for his incompetence. I look at Arsenal and City myself, and believe that's what we could have been.

Look at the mess we're in, smirking much now, Bill?

Assuming this programme has been some time in the making it might explain the sudden end to our spending well before the window closed. If all of the other 'top' clubs are squeaky clean I have no issue with Everton FC being punished if there is wrong doing by the club or its partners if not then two-fingers to the BBC.

On the other hand, although some BBC investigations are very good, many are a load of nonesense, and this could be in the latter category.

The more I think about it the more it sounds like the usual bollocks but will be watching all the same.

I'm worried here and I don't even know what I'm worried about

Fucks sake.

Little Sam advised him to take care when negotiating with them Blue bastards !

Seems to me there are plenty of moody goings on at my club.

The place is rife with misogyny, nepotism, perverts, rs, liars and grotesquely overpaid wankers. The latest perv to be exposed is Chris Evans but the Beeb, apparently, is refusing to investigate (yet again) one of “their own”.

These shitheads are the last one who should be throwing rocks in glasshouses. The entire corporation needs pulling apart and rebuilding. I have a family member who works within the beast and the story she tells .well,

As I've suggested above, I will be astonished if any of this leads anywhere, save to damage prospects of Usmanov ever now investing officially in Everton which would be damaging enough of course.

Great post Phil 79, made me laugh.

Can't see the EPL docking points, although they may be asked to review their Anti Money Laundering procedures (which you'd think would be pretty tight).

I was going to make a joke that perhaps Pat Van Den Hauwe was studying for his LPC and he'd carried out the Due Dilligence... But see he's already involved at the club.

The only person who's likely to get stung from this is Moshiri, with potential Capital Gains from the sale of
Red & White Holdings and maybe a fine. As to amounts, well it'd only be whatever the £80M equates to as percent growth over around ten years RED and WHITE SECURITIES LTD/
Red and White Holdings Ltd was going, I think.

Moshiri's no fool though, so I'm surprised he'd have chance his arm... But guess we'll hear more on the Panorama programme.

This could force Usmanov’s hand of course- if he came out as our owner that would be a good thing

Again though , how has the Arsenal share sale and subsequent EFC 49.9% share purchase benefitted either club or Moshiri's pocket, the latter was gained with the funds raised by the sale of the former?

There is no advantage from his investment in Everton as there's been none, Every penny spent so far since Feb 2016 has been Club generated either by turnover or player sales plus there is the 60m line of credit from the Chinese bank.

Bramley Moore isn't affected as that is to be funded by outside investment, not Moshiri's pocket or our turnover.

Moshiri has spent nothing of his personal wealth to be liable for anything, in fact many could argue that as his interests in Arsenal were of greater status, the club is worth a lot more, he's actually lost out rather than gained anything whether legitimate or otherwise.

The BBC should investigate Bill Kenwright for being a bullshitter..Give Bill his due though his smoke and mirrors act has gone longer than Paul Daniels did.

The Finch Farm sponsorship also looks dodgy, but the best excuse would be that its an advertisement vehicle. Not a very believable excuse, but plausible enough to get away with it.

I don't see where there are any positives for the club through the programs, indeed it might hinder any future investment by the two of them, but then again who knows, time will tell.

I think though this potential scandal for want of a better word, makes it less likely that he now gets the job.
He does come with history and our owners wont now fancy being associated with someone with past dodgy dealings on top of their own, I would imagine!

So he says to Fahrad, time to repay the loan my friend, go and find me another club that provides me with prospect to grow it and invest my money. Moshiri comes to us and buys the shares and clears our debts with a loan.

Next he starts to push through the stadium plans and buys the land. An outside investor is required to fund the stadium let’s assume this is sorted as seems likely.

Then the investment in Finch Farm. Next is perhaps Moshiri buying the additional shares required for full ownership.

Now, the club is fully owned by Moshiri but really ownership is with Usmanov. Once the stadium is completed and assuming our antics on the pitch improve, the share value will increase significantly at which point Usmanov may decide we are a better prospect than Arsenal or alternatively cash in and make a tidy sum into the bargain.

All conjecture of course but if true or even partly true I think EFC will gain.

No one seems to care that Emirates have huge sponsorship deals with City & Arsenal so why should the USM sponsorship of FF be dodgy?

Because nobody has said that Mansour was gifted his shares and sold them to invest in another club. With Moshiri the accusation is that it was always Usmanov’s money and that he has tried to circumvent the laws by using Moshiri to own two clubs at once. Not the same as Mansour.

The real issue, of course, is whether it will affect Moshiri's efforts in turning us into a professional, ambitious business, rather than the sentimental, sepia-eyed boys' club preferred by Kenwright et al.

Scenario; Kenwright and Moshiri have a public fallout over Panorama programme. Moshiri resigns from the board citing irreparable diferences. Kenwright loses the backing of the board. Usmanov sails in and brokers a majority solution at a cut price deal.

Moshiri gets Usmanov what he has always craved, total control of a premier club.

After spending the past 20 years working in three offshore centres in industry, at a regulator, including a time at a government treasury unit and law firm, I have rarely found a UK journalist who is capable of demonstrating the most basic understanding of how offshore centres work, not least how to report correctly on them.

I will not be watching either part, which will no doubt adopt a tabloid and soundbite approach to complex financial transactions under laws and regulations they have no meaningful understanding of.

No doubt the doom and gloom brigade on here will be out in force to act as cheerleader for ill informed journalism and connect a transaction several years ago to Rooney's return. Sorry, my time on this planet is worth more... and so should yours!

COYB

My only hope is that Kenwright is forced out and Usmanov (dodgy or not) takes over.

Moshiri isn't a board member.

David... Ah yes, there's that small inconsequential obstacle but doesn't Moshiri own part of USM too which gives it the degree of legitimacy it needs to be allowable?

Have BBC ran a trailer somewhere ?

The Trailer BBC are running does not mention EFC, nor does it mention Premier League or such their emphasis was on offshore wealth and how it is treated as a generic.

We shall see what it actually does uncover - it seemed to be targeting the Green type situation and perhaps those that come the other way - but did not seem to be specific EFC or football or premier league.

I’ve tried to contact my niece (bbc brainwashed robot) but they’ve all signed a non-disclosure form in blood. I knew the Beeb were evil but this confirms it.

If that is what Usmanov is about, it would be based on an assumption, that Everton was an attractive investment.

Arsenal are renowned as [financially] the best-run club in the PL [very possibly in the world]. It is an absolute cash machine. Everton on the other hand, are renowned as a financial basket-case. Why would an owner of the former, be desperate to become an owner of the latter?
Answer: he wouldn't... and indeed, he hasn't!

Another alternative (which has also been mentioned in the press) is that Usmanov gives/sells his shares to his Arsenal mad sons.

If he really wants out of Arsenal there are ways and means.

"Why would an owner of the former, be desperate to become an owner of the latter? "
Maybe he would see it as a (yet to be milked) cash cow due to the clown party that have been running it for years.

Moyes would say yes

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/david-moyes-would-says-yes-13858005

Talking of lists, where was mine last year? Good job I've converted to Seventh Latterday Happy Clapping Gospel singing Buddhist Witnesses (twice removed, for tax purposes) so I'll let you off. :-)

We seem to have a history of this kind of thing. Didn't Peter Johnson still effectively own Tranmere when he bought the main stake in Everton?! I seem to remember it causing a problem when we bought Steve Simonsen for a British goalkeeper transfer record that raised a few eyebrows for such a bang average keeper.

A rich man's world. Seriously though Usmanov must be like a boil on Stan's ass! Might be trying to lance it.

"Moshiri's Arsenal stake was a gift from Usmanov which, by extension, could mean that the tycoon was the original source of the funds the Iranian-born businessman used for his investment in Everton".

If this is the crux of the problem, I see no problem.

If Moshiri had used the money to buy a yacht would that mean by extension, the yacht is Usamov's? If your Nan gives you £100 for passing your A levels and you buy a watch does that make it her watch?

Bollocks shit stirring this unless it is being used as a vehicle to get at Usimov for some reason. These Russian billionaires hardly seem to give off the smell of Roses so maybe there is an alternative agenda but I don't think Everton FC have any major problem. However, I have never really understood the mechanics of the Finch Farm finances so if any of you accounting or legal whizzs out there fancy explaining (if you haven't already) that would be dandy.

Umanov "Mosh me owd pal me owd beauty my Judy wants a new couch do you want the old one, Only one mark on it when I had that bad cough and I was sat in my skiddies watching Gogglebox when I coughed and followed through"

Mr Mosh " Thank you yes I'd be delighted can I have them floral fitted covers you got from Plumbs too"

Usmanov " Good my mate knows that Bishop fella he has a van I'll get em to drop it off"

Two Weeks later;

Mr Mosh " Usy I found something of yours I lost the remote and stuck my hand down the back and pulled out a wad of £50's I went down again and in all I pulled out £80 million do you want me to drop it off"

Usmanov " No I wondered where that had gone I drew it out so my Mrs could get a few early Chrissy Presents for her ow'l lady. You keep it buy yourself a football club or summat"

Mr Mosh " Cheers mate I'll get you a bevvy next time I see you in Yates's"

Altho' hang on, is this our problem??? Blimey, couldn't really see it meslf, they may have summat here, or summat my arse!

...not that we're over defensive or anything.

Ten pints with Aussie chasers does tend to induce amnesia these days. :-)

Moyes is in. Elstone happy. Billy has also made a massive wedge on the transfers (the stooge probably Walsh, possibly Koeman as well).

The Three Stooges. The same crew are back on board the Marie Celeste. The Cruel Sea.

So here goes.

This programme ends up being short on facts and long on Panorama. However, there are some embers there, which smoke out Usmanov. He sells his shares in Arsenal and gets fully behind Everton, with wodges of cash.

Cups galore and European success follow. In years to come what happened to Everton between August and November 2017 will be seen as equivalent to the short and momentarily unsuccesful transition phase Manchester City underwent after they were taken over.

Dave, I honestly believe that Kenwright is in a power struggle for control of the club. I have no proof, just a feeling.

Where's the money goin'? To Billy's pockets and Koeman is the stooge who plays his part like a typecast whore. Then he exposes Moshiri in BBCgate, and can't you see it, David?

It's embarrassing for anyone at the moment to be found to have links with Everton.

When I was a student in London I worked in a betting shop one summer. There was a guy who kept coming in with tips on horses: I used to try and question him and track these tips to the source (there were hints about his contacts with some jockeys). The shop manager would always bollock me: "Tony ain't learned yet that you never follow up on a tip. Yeh takes it or yeh leaves it."

Similarly I have never been able to substantiate these Everton rumours. People currently living in Liverpool might have more of an idea.

On another topic, Moyes apparently wouldn't rule out a return if approached. I'll bet.

Are you really suggesting that the disastrous buying of players has been deliberately orchestrated ? Are you saying that Bill then exposes Usmanov and Moshiri to Panorama so that Moshiri sells his shares back to Bill at a knockdown price?

Really??

Always thought Usmanov was up to something. I reckoned it was the stadium which his company / mates would build. BK is the most naive person on the planet when it comes to business or so he tells us. Filty rich - can't stand them. If it stinks and all is illegal, relegation to NPL - at least we will have a chance of winning games - won't we ?

Kronke will do anything to frustrate the Russian's scheming so a quick word in the BBC's shell like sets the ball rolling.

How's that for a tip off, Colin ?

But if the end of it is Usmanov gifted the Arsenal shares to Mosh, who then sold them before he bought Everton then I don't see the issue.

He's a man of wealth. Those shares became part of his overall wealth. If he had instead just sold a few ivory back scratchers the same question wouldn't come up.

That said, I wouldn't feel too comfortable with him owning us as he is another one who obtained his money through dubious means to say the least, and there's those in Russia who say he has blood on his hands.

That was one of the most pathetic posts I can remember on here. The ridiculous assertion that the BBC would actually strategize to create this out of nothing simply because of the Russian and Iranian citizenship of those involved is enough to make you look a fool. I guess you’re ignoring the fact that there are other Russians involved in the premier league *cough* Chelsea.

And you say Arsenal is beyond reproach yet Usmanov is a major shareholder at, drumroll please, Arsenal. Did you miss all those stories years ago about the Glazers leveraging United with debt? And you live in a world where the BBC is bias in favor of the Arab world? Really? The corrupt BBC, OK. Why don’t you try actually waiting to see what is presented and not be a cultist.

Usimov/Moshiri/Everton is an element in an investigation into "Offshore secrets of the rich" as Lyndon says above. It's not, I think, about us so much.

Bollocks. And the source for those thousands?

Actually, the BBC was reprimanded recently about climate change - for not challenging a falsehood from climate-change denier Nigel Lawson.

The thousands of scientists who disagree with climate change. Sorry, simply not true. The scientific community is overwhelmingly in agreement on the subject. On Trump? Do you mean they quote the man? How dare they.

They aren’t biased. They simply report on things and present evidence you don’t want to agree with. This is the difference between real news and Fox News, which I assume you must be a big fan of. As for Russia, I guess it’s a lovely country as long as you are not gay, do not try to challenge Putin in an election and don’t try to be an independent news agency. Brilliant country Russia, quite a democracy.

The BBC aren't perfect and they do show bias, but they accurately reflect the mass of evidence on this issue.

There are people who still think the earth is flat. Do you expect the BBC to give airtime to these when we see a spherical planet so you can make your mind up on that one?

That has much more to do with every single media outlet coming under fire and the rise of opinion over facts than anything BBC has done. They, like everyone else, have made mistakes. There is always the ability to go back and look at reporting with hindsight and find fault. And that is a good thing to do in my opinion since that is how you learn and improve.

No doubt they failed miserably during the Iraq war build up, failing to challenge Blair enough. Just as the US media started banging he war drums.

But what is the alternative that has done so much better than BBC? I continue to view it as a decent outlet of reporting, along with the Guardian, the Intercept and a few others.

What I do not want is the BS of “presenting both sides”. No, that is not what news and reporting should be or was ever supposed to be. The news is supposed to gather facts and present reporting based on those facts, period. They have fallen victim to this side of reporting like so many others. But they are still a decent outlet.

Anyway back to the football ...

The reason why folk like Usmanov, Kroenke, Abramovic and other mega-billionaires find the UK so attractive is that they can do pretty much whatever they want because successive governments ever since Thatcher took the reigns in 1979 have pandered to them, cultivated them, and turned a blind eye to whatever they do in the pursuit of further wealth, usually at the expense of our own population and those of other countries.

Moving on, the BBC is in the pocket of whichever government's in power as a consequence of the Licence Fee. That said, the alternative is CNN, Fox and the like, all dependent on viewing figures to sell advertising. Companies advertising their goods have huge control on what is therefore televised.

Every now and then the Beeb will broadcast a Panorama "special" that may generate legitimate accountability. By doing so it further promotes the veneer of the independent respectability that was its central purpose when the Beeb was established nearly one hundred years ago but I suspect the forthcoming Panorama programs will be, in our odious real-world, as impactive as the "shock" revelations that the current government have no idea at all on how to achieve a Brexit that doesn't end up crucifying the futures of our children and grand-children.

Here endeth the lesson!

Is it just coincidence, that we've gone down the pan, since Gareth Barry left?!

Yes, it is. WBA are hardly doing well, are they?! Imagine the outcry on here if he was still being picked in our midfield! It'd be similar to what it was when he was still here and being picked when we were going through our pre-Christmas patch under Koeman last year.

The reason people think anthropogenic climate change is a con is because it has been politicised and framed so as to appear as a legitimate debate to introduce doubt where there is none. If the overwhelming majority of climate scientists are telling you that your grandchildren could starve, I'd be more inclined to listen to them than listen to the pricks who got us into this mess in the first place.

You won't find much in mainstream media of course, but it's all available online - a bit like the dodgy emails that came out of East Anglia a time back. Now there are some corrupt pricks I wouldn't want affecting my future.

Paul, if I may - how do you know that? Where did you get your facts?

I consider it prudent to question a movement that heralds its arrival into public consciousness by setting out to frighten the crap out of everyone with its (sadly successful) "All starving and underwater" stories based on us all boiling to death, and then waters down its hyperbole to a nondescript, indistinct and amorphous, Climate Change.

Prudent, before even considering the facts and elements.

Truth is, that pesky warming hasn't shown up. This should be of more concern than to imply that people are simpletons for not seeing more sun and less rain, when a whole global system of communication has been hammering the concept of global warming.

If it's so inevitable, the science so "Settled", then where is it? It should be irrefutable, surely, if we're to change our whole way of life? Not advisable to bow to some assumed superiority and trustworthiness of the globalists, and just swallow their meme without question. The whole future of how we and our descendants will live, across all aspects of their lives, is under serious threat from this enormous planned engineering of our existence and societal structures, under the blanket concept of "Sustainability".

You're right, we could trade references ad infinitum, so all I can do in support of my views, is to repeat what I suggested above; that people properly research what brought this whole show into being. There is very little truth on the gogglebox. The real story is very different than "Carbon Credit Al" and his cabal will tell you.

I'm not more concerned about the club, it's merely a different concern - hopefully that one will be improved later today...

In fact, as temperatures rise that means more moisture’s evaporates into the air. That moisture comes back down. As oceans warm more moisture evaporates and it alters weather patterns. Just like everything else on this planet, it’s a delicate ecosystem. Small changes have cascading effects. Storms become bigger. Patterns shift. There is no hoax.

"the biggest con perpetrated on humanity is religion - by a long distance"

I couldn't let that go without challenging it. I think the biggest con is:

The Great Money Trick

Coincidentally the passage referred to above alludes to the source and the reason for riches of the planet on which we live and how they are meant to be used.

Time to re assess my views concerning the ownership of our great football club.

Up the Blues

Personally, I got my "facts" (long before Al Gore) from university courses where they teach you how they got those facts without simply feeding them to you. That's why you won't find any academic courses anywhere teaching that climate change isn't happening - except maybe at bible school.

The only good that can come out of this is Usmanov ditches the Arse and throws everything into Everton FC, getting rid of BK and the rest of the jokers.
Any other outcome will just be more ridicule heading towards Everton FC

Global warming, causes and consequences - I'm no expert (is there any expert on here?) so I leave it to those who will know what they're talking about - the world's scientific community. And they (almost unanimously) tell me global warming is fact, and tell me about the role of carbon emissions in that.

Another questionable statement.

Are you suggesting that religious leaders are saying global warming isn't happening? If so you are mistaken.

Laurie Hartley - good point. That's the other superb big con trick.

The fact that we're discussing issues others than Everton shows what a mess we're in on the pitch.

COYB.

I think it was Rothschilde who said "I don't care who's elected to run the Country; as long as I control the money.! not word for word but I think it is near.

As for Panorama! The BBC have been guilty of losing impartiality years ago and a major example is the way the were blatantly trumpeting the argument to remain in the EU.

The question of how the "investigation" affects EFC should be interesting indeed and I'm sure we won't have heard the last.

From what I understand, the BBC have "documents" which show that Usmanov "gave" Moshiri "a gift" of £200 million, or so.

It's only assumptions by us I suppose, until we see what they come up with but my conjecture is that if it has been a gift, then Farhad can do what he likes with it. and I assume, when he was a shareholder of Arsenal, he'd get the share of any profits Arsenal made.

I also think that Farhad Moshiri is a Billionaire in his own right and has been a long time partner of Mr Usmanov.

Once Kroenke (hope the spelling's right) and other members of the Board refused to sell, to Red and White Holdings, then eventually, for whatever reason, Farhad decided to buy into EFC (Here Monsieur Kenwright comes into the picture and sells "the dream" to Farhad Moshiri, who sells his shares to Mr Usmanov for £200 million or so, and buys into EFC. leaving Usmanov with around 30% of Arsenal shares.

Now these two blokes have world wide interests in some massive firms and I think Usmanov is one of the richest men in Russia and its regions.

I'm not sure; but it would seem to me that to do such a daft trick for what is to them. a very small sum, would be chancing something they didn't have to chance.

I think that the part that Mr Usmanov played in the Finch Farm Training Ground, has been investigated and found to be within the rules. And I'm chuffed he's got involved to some degree, just hope it'll be more!

As for the outcome of all this, who knows but what I HOPE will happen is that when he finds out who has "leaked" and supposed "proof" and it's found tro be inconclusive. Then Mr Usmanov, flogs his shares in Arsenal and takes over at EFC. First thing if that hapopens is he thanks Kenwright for his wonderfuil service and sends him into retirement...along with our Chief Executive and the others on the Board.

We might then see the back of a crew that seem to want to be in charge for life!

The whole debate in the media is polarised, as many debates become polarised. In this case, between 'believers' and 'deniers'. The issues are actually more subtle than that, and more complex.

The matter is actually divided into two aspects: (A) record of previous climate details, and (B) predictions of future climate details. Data on (A) appears to be robust, and there appears a strong consensus amongst many qualified to comment. However, part (B) is not like this, and there is an absence of consensus.

Part (B) is dependent on complex mathematical modelling of non-linear turbulent and multi-phase flows in the atmosphere over long periods of time, and uses computational fluid dynamics to make its predictions. Those predictions are heavily dependent on assumptions going into the model, and the non-linear nature of the latter makes uncertainties in predictions very large. To assess such models requires specific expertise. Most people are not in a position to do it, including most scientists.

Anyway, I pray for that early bit of luck in the game today, and "sensitivity to initial conditions" - lots of goals!

As for the Christianity being relegated to religion. If one goes back in time in Parliament Hansard records, Members of Parliament mentioned God quite openly for several years. Then over the course of time, Christianity turned to 'religion.' So, invariably we were born into already existing systems, including the developed state and the once Christianity -recognised by the state, and by science, into 'religion.' Knowledge is therefore subjective.

As for university, lectures just regurgitate what is in those books (academic text). All our education comes from European perspectives, this is why have neo liberalism taught by our universities. It's quite ingenious actually - we equate intelligence with knowledge even though knowledge is subjective.

As for those on here claiming that 'global warming' is still taking place, well, temperatures have remained steady for close on twenty years, while carbon dioxide has doubled. Even the warmist crowd acknowledges this, and have chosen to call it a 'hiatus'.

According to the modern-day Jeremiah, Al Gore, Lower Manhattan should have been submerged by now.

Remember when their morning breakfast show was moved ‘up north’ half of the fuckers resigned due to ‘family reasons and/or personal reasons’ like there was a fucking plague in Manchester!

From being one of the most respected broadcasters ever they are now taken with a pinch of salt. Sad.

On the beeb and the (still yet to be aired) Panorama special, it might be worth waiting to view it (if really so inclined) before making a call on its content.

Panorama from memory used to include quality investigative journalism on interesting issues. From the very few viewings of it that I've seen in recent years, it's become very tabloid-like.

As to the side issue on global warming/climate change, here's a link which shows you how a genuine statistically representative climate change debate should look.

For those lacking the patience to get the punchline, fast forward the 4m 30s video to around the 3 minute mark.

Scientists? Phttt! What do they know?

Link

I hope the Goodison Roar is in full voice today in support of Unsworth and the team. We need a win.

Then, in the 70s and 80s saw the rhetoric being ratcheted up as lots of other teams had 'ethnic' players whilst we didn't (in general). Then Thatcher and the demonisation of the working class people of the city.

"Everton are white" was their secret agenda and obviously that was anathema to the PC Paedophile Corporation. I'm amazed the BBC is still in existence, it has absolutely no news or academic value. Unelected Quango. Smash it up!!

On climate change, global warming etc..after undertaking my own research, my opinion is that you can trace the numbers in correlation to increases, in increases in global population.

Restricting population growth thirty years ago probably would of avoided such a dramatic change in warming and climate change.

On to Everton, the BBC and their panorama investigation...for years we've had fans telling us our board are above such criminalities, so it will be interesting to see what they've uncovered in terms of offshore entities.

I don't think they will be fair, as I've previously stated, all reporting seems based in some sort of bias.

Ah, the old internet-is-full-of-loonies angle.

"There are hundreds of sites with misleading information."

Does that include all the sites supporting climate change... UN and governmental information, government-funded scientific studies, or do they get a pass? How about those sites specifically designed to attack "Deniers"? Are they exceptions?

Do you simply assume everyone that disagrees with a prevailing idea or wishes to research it, blindly goes out and seeks unsubstantiated garbage, without thoroughly double and triple checking it? Why, that would be akin to watching a TV documentary, and then repeating it to everyone at work the following day - surely not.

To repeat, I only suggest people avail themselves of some detailed background as to where we find ourselves; it's important. I imagine most people with the motivation to do that, probably have the sense to understand how to do it.

Meanwhile, Michael, be very wary of ToffeeWeb - there's a lot of garbage posted online. Or do you feel able to discern?

"The Political Class"

is way they describe themselves, especially on the Today programme. As if we should have a Roley, or Woody (wills woodbine for the those who haven't smoked) in the corner of their gob, weear a flat cap and only have an interest in Football, racing, "the telly" watching some contestents bake bloody cakes during the peak hou, or Britains got bloody talent. Keep plonking loads of dumb stuff that'll keep em happy, while we get on with the Politics.

Political Class? Bastards!

PS, sorry. I should have said Pompous Bastards!

I guess we can't solve this biggie on TW! I've done as you say, availing myself of some detailed background... My conclusion is to go with the IPCC. But, as I say, too big an issue for TW to solve!

The opposition of the Church to Galileo et al mirrors the stance of the BBC to the likes of LFC and Utd.

Wherever there's money, there's corruption. Or 'bent bastards' in Scouse parlance. The F.B.I. can't get access to the actual beneficiaries of these off-shore accounts (which all the players in the boardroom at EFC have connections) so we won't learn anything new tonight.

As Bill would say; "That's showbiz!"

"we're going through some disarray". Stanley, I couldn't under-state it better myself.

Right, off to the game after watching a few minutes of the MC / Arse game. Fluid and dynamics all in one in that game.

Our spine has basically been ripped out of us. We no longer have an Everton team; we have individual players in various leagues who cannot play together.