Morgan Schneiderlin had to be withdrawn at half-time against Palace because of a toe problem
David Unsworth saw a gutsy display and signs of progress from his Everton team in Saturday's 2-2 draw at Crystal Palace.
The Blues recovered from yet again conceding the first goal to draw level from the penalty spot with just five minutes played at Selhurst Park after Oumar Niasse had gone down under a challenge from Scott Dann and Leighton Baines converted from 12 yards.
That cancelled out James McArthur's goal after just 50 seconds and Everton would have to equalise a second time at the end of the first half after Wilfried Zaha had restored the Eagles' lead.
Niasse was on the mark when he collected Gylfi Sigurdsson's pass and calmly slotted past Julian Speroni after the Palace goalkeeper had played Dann into trouble and Idrissa Gueye dispossessed him.
It wasn't a contest or display for the purists, however, with a forgettable second half, albeit one in which the visitors looked better defensively after Tom Davies had come on for Morgan Schneiderlin to add some pressure on the ball in the middle of the park.
Unsworth revealed after the game that the Frenchman's substitution was a forced on due to injury.
“I was delighted with the desire today to come back twice,” the stand-in boss said afterwards.
“You've got to show that little bit more quality. You can't expect just desire to get you results game after game in the Premier League.
“You've got to start somewhere and I feel there's been a steady improvement since I took the job.”
“We tweaked the way we went about it [in the second half]. We were forced to bring Tom Davies on at half-time. Morgan had an injection before the game on his toe and he was struggling with it.”
That change may also have contributed to the fact that Wayne Rooney didn't make it onto the pitch. The veteran watched from the bench as an un-used substitute and that led to inevitable questions of Unsworth.
“We picked a team and a squad of players that we thought would win a game,” he said. “There's no issue there.
“Wayne has been fantastic since I took over. He's trained brilliantly and been involved in all the games so there's no issue with Wayne.”
Reader Comments (284)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 20/11/2017 at 07:20:05
3 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:24:30
We got very lucky with both goals end of. God help us if we are still in this shape when we hit the top teams again.
There were virtually no signs of improvement and our defending is as disjointed and woeful as ever.
One of the very few glimmers of hope is Niasse's willingness to keep pestering no matter what.
4 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:31:34
5 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:35:04
Is it a 3-0 reverse if a club doesn't show up? Might be wise to take that now, although we'd probably get a mighty points deduction too that will take us down.
6 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:35:28
But tactics, execution and quality were still sorely lacking, no incremental improvement in any of those areas whatsoever.Crucially they are the only areas that count if we expect to improve.
7 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:46:12
To say "progress is incremental" is being very optimistic. I think if we continue improving as we are, then we might just finish second from bottom instead of bottom.
A very poor performance against a poor Palace team on Saturday does not mean we are doing any better. In truth, apart from a second string Chelsea team in the League Cup, we have played some very average teams and have been lucky.
I can't understand why we only seem to have one option for a new manager in Silva. Let's hope there is something positive in the coming week or it will be another weekend of nail-biting and head under the covers. And with the derby coming up soon, we had better improve a lot more rapidly if we don't want to get battered.
8 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:46:31
Okay, there are negatives along the way but the good manager/coach puts a positive spin on them. Not sure if this is in any books or training manuals but who gives a shit with that.
Must say, something that surprises me is that, with the wealth of similar talent at our disposal, a player was picked who needed an injection to his toe before the game. Maybe a strong shot of scotch or vodka would have been better!!!
9 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:47:35
10 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:50:55
We need to hang on to the coat tails of the teams in the middle of the table till we can get a couple of goal scorers in in January. No doubt we'll pay well over the odds. Bad times till then!
11 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:53:13
I suggest we need a team of fighters and scrappers, so that would include:
Sigurdsson (I know, but he showed signs)
Jagielka, Williams, Keane and Holgate have been horrible in varying degrees, and Baines plays because there is just no other option. We must pray that the medical staff is working overtime to get Bolasie, Barkley, Funes Mori, Coleman and McCarthy to come back soon ASAP.
Until then, as someone else has suggested on another thread, I would put Rooney in the Schneiderlin/Barry role, sitting deep, breaking play and quickly distributing the ball forward. He would be supported by one young runner from Baningime, Davies or Besic my choice would be Baningime. Sigurdsson as the creative force, Calvert-Lewin and Lennon providing width and Niasse the front man.
My next Premier League team against Southampton:
Kenny Keane Jagielka Baines
Lennon Sigurdsson Calvert-Lewin
Subs: Sandro, Davies, Vlasic, Lookman, Williams, Gueye
I would give the back 5 some time to settle down and get some sort of cohesion but make them work extra hard training sessions to get them in shape defensively.
12 Posted 20/11/2017 at 08:54:08
Unsworth has slowly installed a fierce fighting spirit into a group of players that had totally ran out of gas, and for that he deserves a lot credit.
He probably won't be offered the job full time, but he has been the best man to steady the ship until we find a class replacement, let's hope that happens quickly.
14 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:36:18
Referee was shocking at Palace Sakho should have been sent off for a clear red for the assault on Calvert-Lewin when he broke clear and Niasse was lucky to last 90 minutes though to be fair he calmed down after a long telling off. It may not be a new dawn but it is certainly a move away from the abyss.
15 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:39:09
Enough! Stop twatting about, get Dyche in to try and turn us into something resembling a football team. Get a playing plan set, so each knows his job. Work hard on the basics.
Get the wasters out if possible in January and we might have a chance being a competitive side again with a few quality additions.
Something must be done... we are in dire need, we need wins!
16 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:39:30
I notice that Mourinho was outraged that Phil Jones received 6 injections before the last England game and still had to be subbed. Absolutely shocking that this could happen in a friendly.
I have wondered both before Baines had ankle surgery and since, if there is a compromised movement/pain in his joint that could explain his conservative approach to his role nowadays?
Perhaps my previous slating of Schneiderlin should be moderated, however there surely could have been alternatives to playing him.
17 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:40:57
If Dyche or Silva were in charge of this squad we would be 7th minimum.
18 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:45:56
Public lambasting does not work Koeman did it far too often
At the other end of the scale Happy Clappy Martinez “we were immense” doesn't work either, especially when we were crap.
19 Posted 20/11/2017 at 09:56:15
20 Posted 20/11/2017 at 10:01:38
What if we had the Cahill - Rooney partnership?
What if we had the Baines - Pienaar partnership feeding Rooney countless balls in dangerous areas?
What if Carsley was breaking up play and feeding Rooney his long diagonal passes from deep?
What if Arteta was commanding the midfield and feeding Rooney all the dangerous through-passes?
We could be regular top 4 by now.
21 Posted 20/11/2017 at 10:12:11
22 Posted 20/11/2017 at 10:48:55
Well, under Unsworth they are putting a shift in, showing desire and fight. As evidenced by coming back from behind in the last two games. Yes, we had luck (and that makes a welcome change!), but luck has best effect when it's backed by the desire and fight.
So Unsworth is undoubtedly correct in saying there is incremental improvement through the desire to battle. He also says that's only one of the ingredients needed. He admits we need to improve our organisation, to add to the desire to battle.
He's being honest and direct, with no bullshit, but he's diplomatic as well. So he gets my wholehearted support for what he's said. Not because he's a blue, but because he's doing his best to manage a difficult situation.
23 Posted 20/11/2017 at 10:49:17
24 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:03:00
Imagine Moshiri really wanted us to join the elite. He could have added quality to the 4 top players we had when he arrived.
25 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:04:24
I think he was picked purely to keep him happy and to prove he was back in the fold after the training incident with Ferguson.
26 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:04:48
So, your view must be that Martinez was absolutely the dogs bollocks, then, for seeing bright silver linings and pretty rainbows in actual darkening storm clouds over Goodison, yeah?..
'No balanced perspective certainly no reality check needed here, folks.. We're all good, ta!'...
27 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:14:09
I disagree. Is the Watford or Burnley squad better than ours? You bet they are!
There's only so much blame can be put on the manager. Bad management doesn't cause players to give the ball away, fail to run, or shit out of tackles on a regular basis (Schneiderlin and Sigurdsson). It doesn't cause individual defensive mistakes on the scale we've witnessed time and time again.
We have to many poor players, or is it just players playing poorly? Too many players past their prime also.
28 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:21:05
Apart from more fight, there really hasn't been a great improvement in performance that a new manager normally gets out of the team. The young guns from his Under-23s have been his best performers. They respect him. Of the others, we have heard of the training fall-out and watched Rooney simmer on the bench.
When the new guy comes in, perhaps we will at last get that "new manager" boost as they all see they must please a man who will be around for some time.
29 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:25:42
Had they taken over in the summer, you may well be right that "If Dyche or Silva were in charge of this squad we would be 7th minimum."
However, that's not pertinent to the situation we now find ourselves in. Any new manager will be inheriting the same mess that Unsworth is trying to turn 'round.
30 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:26:43
Funes Mori, Coleman, McCarthy and Robles.
Top of the wishlist for January is a big striker to give us another option in games, particularly late on.
31 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:27:03
What if the management team have bought a load of players that simply can't play together? What if a squad was missing a focal point, a striker? What if that team just doesn't have the right characters in it to play well together?
Yes you can say these are mistakes made by Koeman, or whoever when it comes to recruitment, but to constantly state that any manager can change things with this group feels wide of the mark to me (and a small few others on here). I'm of the opinion that you could put quite literally any manager you can think of of, dead or alive, in charge of this squad and the results will be largely the same.
They're a bunch of duds with no ability to manage themselves properly on the pitch despite coaching and instructions the manager can only do so much, but he can't control their every movement, this isn't FIFA18.
Has anything really changed with Koeman/Unsworth in charge aside from a few personnel and formation changes? The patterns are exactly the same, save for a bit more effort in the second half of games Unsworth has essentially been able to changed very little, which leads me to believe the problem is clearly the players, not the manager.
Yeah he's played with wide men, and attempted to inject some pace, but what difference has it made? Zero. We're still a shitshow from back to front and that will not change with this group of players until we get Coleman, Barkley, Bolasie, and ideally a new striker in the team. The manager, any manager, has his hands tied at the moment.
32 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:28:23
You just cannot have the nous and record of this true Evertonian and be relegated to reserve status so easily. Unsworth's teams and tactics stink!
33 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:29:11
'What if Rooney had played alongside Cahill, Arteta etc..?"
It's all a bit academic now, isn't it? And no matter how good we might have done for a while, they wouldn't all still be at it for us now, though, would they?.. Why?.. Because they aren't. Only Rooney came back to see out his career as it was his best actual footballing option!
Someone said this is a 'logical point of view' but it isn't really, is it, as it has no relevance either to where we are right now or to what actually came to pass, but is merely a pointless, dreamy, moment of 'What if..?' Very nice if you wanna go there, but pointless absolutely.
Me, I prefer to dream of a better future, not what might have been in a very different, simply non-existent, past. That said, sorry to piss in the chips of a fellow Toffee!
34 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:31:16
The delay and apparent indecision on appointing a new manager must be having an effect on morale. We have to get a manager in this week but then we needed a striker in August and that didn't happen either.
If Silva has any sense, he will steer clear of Everton. The root of the current problems lies in the lack of clear direction from the top. Moshiri, Kenwright, Walsh... Who's in charge? Nothing has changed.
35 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:38:20
36 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:41:31
37 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:43:52
The derby! Don't even talk about it!! Our scouting team brought in Schneiderlin, Klaassen and Sigurdsson, while the scouts / recruitment for the other shower were bringing in Coutinho, Mane and Salah. For similar money I think.
They have a killer midfield with pace, directness and goalscoring threat. We sign those 3 players and we would be a different team.
Where and what does our scouting and recruitment do? Who are they accountable to? Where do they operate from? A shed on Buckley Hill?
38 Posted 20/11/2017 at 11:49:15
I'm in agreement with some of what you've said but I believe a manager could come in and change things. Someone who knows what to do with a defence. Fix that and it'll breath confidence into the rest of the team.
Right now we start a game tentatively, hoping not to concede and that affects every player. Obviously easier said than done though...
39 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:02:16
Surely it makes sense to play Rooney, even if it's only for half a game. To have him take no part in games, especially with the constant lack of creativity in our performances, is a mystery to me.
Yes he might not be the Rooney at his peak, but he can still produce the bit of skill from which goals are scored.
40 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:06:06
And talking of way off the pace, am I the only one who thinks we're visibly less fit than many other teams? It's what you get when you appoint such grafters as Ferguson and Jeffers to the coaching staff I suppose, but at least they "get" Everton so that's alright as far as some of us are concerned.
New broom required to sweep out players, coaches and bad attitude. If he could also sweep out our chairman I'd probably wanna kiss his feet.
41 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:10:22
We are talking about highly paid professionals who have some footballing ability not a bunch of donkeys we recruited from non-league outfits. I realise they haven't played as a team and haven't shown much as individuals either for quite some time, but if any possible new managerial recruit isn't able to form a team from this squad then perhaps they'd be the wrong appointment.
42 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:16:46
43 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:18:13
Schneiderlin and Gueye both walked back into the starting 11 even though they have been poor this season.
Sorry, Unsy, but we need a top drawer manager and we need him now.
44 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:26:39
The media refer to "new manager bounce" and cite this as one of the reasons to sack a manager. What is new manager bounce? It's the dramatic improvement that sometimes (but not always) occurs upon the sacking of a manager and the installation of a new manager.
Why does it happen? The players are suddenly all reset. They have no history with the new guy, and those out of favour before can now push to get themselves back in the first XI. Everyone suddenly competes harder than before to get into the team and this can dramatically shake off a malaise that a team has got itself into.
This competition for places, can increase the mood at the training ground, players can get a smile on their faces again and so the confidence and morale can increase dramatically as a result. A new manager can instantly cause this to happen.
Unsworth is not quite a new manager. He's part of the previous establishment. Players already know him, a lot have already played for him. Therefore, we never benefited from "new manager bounce". However, we have seen some players, such as Aaron Lennon return from the cold. We've also seen academy players step up. This should increase the competition for places, and lead to a better atmosphere and a lift in the general malaise that has engulfed Everton for at least 2 months.
What Unsworth is trying to do with these comments is to get the morale and the confidence rising and this includes us, the 12th man. He's telling us it's getting better. He's telling the players it's getting better. This then feeds into the next game: "Don't worry lads, we're working hard and we'll be even better in this game, we should win it". If we do win it, and can fall back on 3 games unbeaten, with 2 wins and a draw, then we can start to call that some kind of run of form. That will then really start to change the mood and get some confidence going.
Sometimes, the manager will tell you what he wants to happen, rather than what has happened in order to try to force a narrative. Not so much "it is getting better" as "it will get better".
Put simply, Unsworth is doing the right thing with his comments, and it's a world away from the blind sugar coating of everything Martinez did, where he had long gone past the point of trying to conjure some confidence and morale out of thin air.
I agree with the various posts above about Niasse. He is, to use the old adage, "the first line of defence" and he sets the tone for the closing down, or to use the modern term, "he starts the press". He is getting a lot of success for this and so it encourages teammates. They think that if they run harder, close down quickly, and at speed, the opposition will give up the ball and so we can get in, in a good position. He's given the team a real lift with his work rate. To be fair, Calvert-Lewin isn't far behind him, and Lennon has been a difference for his work rate in defence, as this simply wasn't being done before, especially by Vlasic, which is why he has dropped out of the team.
45 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:27:18
46 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:27:55
As much as I wanted Unsworth to succeed, I feel in the short time he has had, the performances are not improving yet. We would need the same luck up to Christmas, as we have had in the last 2 games to be able to stop the rot. Then with more luck in the January window and clear out of the dead wood we may survive.
Despite who is the manager in January I still believe it will be the players that will determine any improvement in results in future.
47 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:36:29
Though not brilliant, he needs to keep the current back four to see if they can gel. Keep Sigurdsson at No 10 as he will get better.
Unfortunately we are likely to lose Niasse for a couple of games which should give Sandro an opportunity. Any two of Lennon, Calvert-Lewin, Vlasic, Lookman in wide forward positions until Bolasie and Barkley are fit. Agree with previous contributors: Ross will be more effective playing as a forward.
48 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:42:05
Rooney is the only player we have with a proper football-brain, yet he was left out altogether at the weekend. He may not be the player he once was, but he has as much footballing ability in his brain as the entire squad put together. He makes space for himself, can receive the ball anywhere, and play himself into the right positions to make passes yes, he loses it sometimes, but he always loses it trying to play the right ball the rest of them just lose the ball.
The only other player we have that can do anything close to Rooney, is Barkley both players have the change of direction when receiving the ball that literally none of the other players have, which is why we end up going backwards or sideways slowly all the time.
You need a blend in a successful, creative team, and we don't currently have that blend at all. Schneiderlin and Gana have their merits, but neither of them creates anything at all. We lack movement, we lack people running beyond the player with the ball, and we lack pace all the things required to win football matches!
49 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:44:26
50 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:56:53
We play Southampton on Sunday (an equally shite team); however, unless we have some creativity and midfield presence, then they will batter us as they simply have better players.
What morons at the club allowed this to happen under Koeman and Martinez before him? If Williams plays, it is like giving them a two-goal head start!
Unsworth for all the shouting of dogs of war, blue bood etc, he is not the answer, and the longer we leave it, the harder it will get!
51 Posted 20/11/2017 at 12:56:58
What's all this "we were lucky" about? It's as if we can only focus on what the opposition did. If Pickford brought his A game, we wouldn't have needed to come from behind. We can also point to a good chance missed by Sandro and a glaring one missed by Calvert-Lewin. The same thing happened last week, we scored three and missed two great chances, yet some posters only focused on the negative to say how lucky we were.
How can people accuse Unsworth of being out of his depth, or tactically inept? Have you seen how disjointed this group of players are? Koeman was considered a very decent manager before this season and he couldn't do anything with them. The idea that a Dyche or a Silva could come in and wave a magic wand is beyond ridiculous.
Unsworth knew he had to get back to basics. He knew whatever team he put out, it was going to be painfully low on confidence. When a team is this low on confidence the only place to start is by getting the players to roll their sleeves up to fight their way out. coming from behind four times in two games proves we are doing that.
Small steps. When the fight returns, the confidence is never really far away.
52 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:03:05
Martinez continues to be slated for the interviews he gave, yes they were overly happy clappy too many times to the media. I'm willing to bet, though, it's London to an onion that he let the players and other staff know what he really thought about their performances and what needed to done in the future.
This is the trouble about being a supporter of this club, we actually know almost bugger all of what goes on inside Everton. We only get to know half the truth most of the time if we are lucky, and from that it spawns various conclusions/guesses on here which eventually becomes accepted fact if enough fans spout it.
53 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:04:57
"Don't even talk about it!! Our scouting team brought in Schneiderlin, Klaassen and Sigurdsson."
You cannot blame our scouting team for any of these signings. Schneiderlin was a player Koeman insisted on, having worked with him before. Klaassen was scouted three times by Koeman personally, so surely he was his signing. Sigurdsson was also Koeman's player and he insisted on him (see his constant comments on a player not at our club for a measure of just how much he wanted him). Therefore, no one can be blamed for these players other than Koeman himself.
Klaassen, as I have said repeatedly, is one of hell a player. He's not a dud. You do not get the glowing reports he had about him, if you are as bad as some make out. I remind you again, read what the great Johan Cryuff says about him, particularly the comment about him being one of the 3 greatest players in the world for controlling the ball at speed (along with Xavi and Iniesta comments were in about 2014).
That said, we play to Klaassen's weaknesses, not his strengths. Klaassen is an all-action player who requires the ball to be travelling at speed, and various players on his wavelength able to play incisive and one touch passes whilst breaking at speed. Koeman's vision was surely of Schneiderlin hitting passes at speed to Klaassen and then him playing it first time to Rooney or Sigurdsson, who also have an ability to see moves one step ahead, and so to play at breakneck speed, as well as having the technique to keep the ball moving quickly.
However, our midfield does the exact opposite. Everyone puts their foot on the ball and takes a few touches. Everyone also under hits passes to the extent that the receiver has to stop and wait for the ball to come to them, rather than zipping it into feet and allowing the receiver to display Premier League quality control.
These three (Klaassen, Schneiderlin, and Sigurdsson) are not bad players, it's just that Koeman did not think it through carefully. He had some mad plan to completely change how we played last season, and move to a fast paced counter-attacking style and did not think that the team actually lacked the personnel to pull this off and it would take rather more than these three players to pull it off, and a top class striker. But the main problem is a lack of pace.
54 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:12:32
Our players have quality and it will come with the right encouragement, confidence and a bit of luck. Clean sheets and scoring goals in that order.
We have starting get a bit of luck, probably because the players Unsworth has installed a bit more positive thinking.
What needs to be done by him or a new manager is to sure up the defense ,so we don't concede. We have a goal difference of -12, which is relegation form!
So for the next match we need to focus on a something nil result, ie, a clean sheet and work from there. Desperate measures for desperate times. The players we have at the moment are not good enough to defend by attacking!
So please, coaching staff, focus on the defense, so at least we have something to build on in the second half!
55 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:13:02
56 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:16:22
57 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:18:04
A tactically naïve manager, ie, one playing an old-fashioned 4-4-2 with two banks of 4 in straight lines, with a bog standard average Premier League team would get trounced by Mourinho managing any team in the league. Tactics, strategy and setup play a massive part in the modern game, where there is so much quality in every team in the league, with the bottom club, Palace boasting Sakho (£25m), Van Arnholt (wanted by Man City), Loftus-Cheek (England's new hope or should that be hype), Zaha, Benteke (Belgian international), Townsend (England international), Cabaye (French international), and more. There's a lot of quality at every side in this league, and so it comes down to tactics, nullifying the best opponent and overrunning the oppositions weak points.
Training is also massive. A poor coach can over train a side and make them go past the point of optimal fitness to the point where they are fatigued. A tired team, operating at 5% below optimal, can be a massive difference that makes them second to every ball, as tiredness is mental as well as physical. Also, a team can not do the right work, ie, Martinez ignoring set pieces and doing little defensive work, and so find themselves fundamentally exposed, or fail to understand the managers message, ie, Koeman, and look confused on the pitch, or not work on attacking play, and so have no movement ahead to the point where they just knock it around the back in the vain hope of something presenting itself, ie, Koeman.
The general situation is caused by Koeman's mis-management and a top manager could fix it, but it's not a quick fix.
58 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:21:15
59 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:26:29
60 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:32:08
That is where this season went so badly wrong. A bit of pace wouldn't go amiss either.
61 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:32:53
I don't believe that Niasse is performing at peak level therefore even though his performance is keeping Everton out of the relegation zone; and Koeman would have lost his job a lot sooner.
Niasse is also playing with a terrible Everton performance. Unsy said, and as someone who has also studied psychology I think he's right, "When the team is low in confidence and belief relative the Premier League standard, the whole team suffers individually." It explains the drop in performance from last season, ie, Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson (no pre-season for Everton either).
In short, we must not have a short-sighted view of Everton under these negative factors.
62 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:38:10
We have also been a bit fortunate in the past two games and that won't continue as we are going to have to battle out some wins sooner rather than later.
Talking of fortune, wouldn't it be nice if we got a bucket load of it in the upcoming Derby and managed to actually beat them bastards.
63 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:39:58
Imo Keane is the worst of the centre-backs, he is woeful. How so many people on here pick him in the team is unbelievable! Fuck me, do you watch the match with a blindfold on?
The goalkeeper, Jagielka, Keane and Baines look like they are playing with diving boots on when crosses come into the box, nobody can win a header.
We have started to score goals, 5 in the last two matches, but ffs we can't defend, that is the problem going forward.
64 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:41:53
When things get ugly and personal, knee-jerk decisions are often made. Here we now are, Koeman gone with a rudderless void instead. It supports the view mobs' anger is very rarely assuaged they just move on to their next "outrage". It's how the Geordies have been for years following that basket case of a club, NUFC.
The situation we find ourselves in rests firmly at the feet of the board. Their incompetence has reached new calamitous lows. Venting anger towards a thoroughly decent man, and loyal Evertonian, is as ugly as it is misplaced. I say this as someone who feels that Unsworth is not the best man for us at this moment. He is a great coach of youth and a man that puts EFC first. That alone, given the last 3 incumbents, ought to guarantee respect. Sadly not with EFC 2017 vintage.
65 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:43:59
Because, when I was watching the game, they seemed a lot more in tune with each other. Whereas most of our team had been away from Finch Farm for the week before that game.
66 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:48:28
67 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:48:40
The Directors owe each other and all in Everton's constitution (internal rules of governance) a duty of a care to perform at a 'reasonable standard.' Any other organisation would sack the incompetent persons involved for negligence.
68 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:49:55
69 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:53:51
It will mean 7 points in the last three matches and give the squad a sense that they're on a bit of a winning streak. That's something they can carry back to Goodison Park the week after, in a very winnable match vs the Hammers.
70 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:54:36
A season ticket holder may be able to claim breach of duty of care by Everton's Board of Directors too under the law of negligence. I can't ever see this happening though.
71 Posted 20/11/2017 at 13:55:02
"How can people accuse Unsworth of being out of his depth, or tactically inept?"
Because "people" have two eyes and a brain.
Some of Rhino's starting line-ups have bordered on the bizarre, and he has made zero progress in organizing the defense, which given his experience should be a strong point.
To call that viewpoint "hostility" or "ill will" is pure, unadulterated bollocks. There isn't a poster here who doesn't like and admire Unsworth or wish him the best, and I haven't seen a single comment that resembles the ire directed at Koeman.
It's simply that there are a whole lot of folks here who don't think Rhino has the experience or the nous to be a Premier League manager. That was my opinion when he stepped into the job and I have seen absolutely nothing to change it.
72 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:00:21
74 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:10:19
I never wanted to sign the Icelander but some fledgling signs that he is starting to have more impact on the game and provide some much needed creativity...
Crystal Palace are playing better than they were and let's not forget they beat Chelsea at their gaff a few weeks ago and were very unlucky not to beat West Ham too who they dominated. I don't think a point there is so bad despite their position.
Personally, I hope Silva is announced this week but, if not, then I still think that we are looking a touch better than we did under Koeman and reckon we have a decent shot at getting 6 or 7 points in our next 3 Premier League games which would possibly see us move into the top 10. Total speculation of course and unhelpful as such but I do agree that there has been incremental improvement under Unsie.
75 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:20:59
Where does that leave us?
76 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:21:33
I think I read at the weekend that Unsworth has made two changes at half-time in each of his last four games. If this is correct, it shows that his first choice eleven were not up to the task. Okay, if you're changing tactically or through injuries, fair enough, but if it seems to be because your initial selection was wrong, something needs looking at.
77 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:28:46
It's a pity you don't use those two eyes and brain when reading the posts directed at David Unsworth. I could name a few who only ever post to criticize him. Some of the posts have been downright disrespectful.
What a pity you Rhino critics didn't use your eyes and brains when Koeman was driving moral, confidence and cohesion into the dust.
Unsworth was handed a monumental task, one which would have taxed the very best of coaches. I really look forward to him guiding us to safety, not to mention the comments from those of you who have dismissed him.
78 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:29:25
79 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:32:39
A manager can replace players not performing with like for like, or he can be bold and swap systems. Some managers find it impossible to react to a complete change of system and can be caught out.
Unsworth has had success from doing so in the last two games by collecting 4 points.
80 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:35:55
We are also changing the team and rotating the system, every time we play, and this is no good for a nearly new set of players who no longer play for the manager who brought them to the club, and are also getting shoved from pillar to post every week.
81 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:51:58
People like yourself should know better and stick with Tennis or Snooker.
82 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:58:18
83 Posted 20/11/2017 at 14:58:59
Why do we all put up with this? When do we call for the resignation of the cause of our fall, Bill Kenwright! I really am fed up with the whole sorry over-paid, under-performing, lazy, couldn't-care-less attitude stinking players and the chairman!
Rant over, until Thursday at least.
84 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:04:34
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
85 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:11:09
My point is difference of opinion and viewpoint need not get toxic. The climate on this forum is markedly different from what it used personal abuse is much more prevalent no need for that.
You're of course right there's a lot of frustration but put that at the board's feet, where it belongs.
86 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:29:31
He has begun to steady the ship slightly by picking players who will as a minimum show passion, effort and commitment. Sure his selections have not always been great but he isn't afraid to change things around and make decisions. His main mistake has been to rely on senior pros who don't deserve his trust.
He didn't create this mess but he is trying to sort it. For as long as he is asked to do that let's back him and cut out the crap.
87 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:29:57
Sam (#74), no, he has a goal and a previous assist.
Dave (#77), you've gone beyond bollocks to pure shite, unless you were down a cave somewhere and didn't read TW for the final month before Koeman was sacked. The call for his head was nearly universal. And being skeptical of Unsworth's qualifications doesn't make anybody either a Koeman booster or a Rhino hater... it's just facing reality.
Yes, he was handed a lousy situation. And no, he isn't up to it. Personally, I hope that whoever gets the job keeps Rhino as an assistant so that he is qualified for future situations.
Paul (#84), not necessarily endorsing Pulis as a candidate, but guarantee Friday won't happen. One thing I admire about him is he never makes excuses.
88 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:41:00
Mike, since when has David claimed he was a fully experienced Premier League Manager? The fact that he played in Premier League defence does not mean he can step in and work miracles on one of the worst defences in the league.
He was simply asked to step and serve when we needed him most, so tone down the edge in your comments and show a bit more respect to a proper blue.
89 Posted 20/11/2017 at 15:59:36
I recognize he's doing his best, and I will continue to cheer him on as long as he remains on the touchline, but as I've said many times before, this is no job for a beginner. I do not favor the idea of giving him "a chance" for months or the rest of the season... we need an experienced professional manager, and sooner rather than later.
90 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:09:31
I'm sure that the Board are seeking a new man with a higher profile, reflecting their apparent ambition for the Club. However, it seems quite possible that they may not secure his services for a while yet, and maybe not until the season's end. If that is the case, and Unsworth is not deemed to be a sufficiently safe pair of hands to see us through until May, then we're likely to see an ageing British manager brought in as a stop-gap David Jones, perhaps.
91 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:11:08
92 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:21:21
Lost to Chelsea, Leicester and Lyon. And our football has most certainly not improved. Someone posted a damning stat about our passing against Palace, it was horrific. I think Pickford completed the most passes for us.
“Everton committed 26 fouls during the Palace game, the most of any team in Europe's top five leagues on Saturday.”
“Everton only completed 164 passes against Palace. Only one in the last seven seasons have Everton had a worse record.
Sticking with Everton's passing stats, the final data point of note was that Jordan Pickford was Everton's top pass completion player against the Eagles.”
That is not improvement nor is it good enough. Stop trying to explain it away. We are terrible under Unsworth. We sacked Koeman for good reasons. Nothing Unsworth has done is an improvement and in no way justifies him continuing as manager.
93 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:23:47
The main concern is getting the best man in for the job. He's unproven in the Premier league. Not done much with Hull or Watford that wasn't already in place. Inconsistent play, some terrible losses, (to us) and a few good wins.
Steve Bruce kept Wigan and Hull in the Premier league is he the man for us? No... Get Mancini in ASAP!
94 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:24:26
This mess was brought about by the idiot who sanctioned Lukaku's sale despite 2 years remaining on his contract and failed to recruit a replacement and a left -sided defender as Koeman had requested.
I get the feeling Koeman was at odds with Kenwright and/or Walsh and spat his dummy out and went to play golf instead when he realised nothing was going to come.
That idiot is still at the club and it is obvious that even Paul Daniels would struggle to wave a wand and get this lot to play to their potential.
We need a really strong manager to lay down some discipline and organisation particularly on a defence that was ruined by Martinez and hasnt recovered.
I really don't think Silva is the answer and was hoping (dreaming) that we might be able to persuade Ancelotti or Tuchel to come but now wish we would appoint Dyche asap.
It sums up our situation when, out of a back 4 of 3 senior England internationals and one Under 20 international, only one showed up and two of them were a disgrace to the word centre-back.
95 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:26:36
96 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:29:49
97 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:35:44
Not sure why you feel the need to become so aggressive, but I think you have monopolized the "pure shite" on here.
Forget the last month. Koeman was given a free ride for months – you being one of those who gave it to him. Unsworth has been caretaking for a month trying to salvage what you yourself call a lousy situation.
Maybe you were too slow to judge the last guy and far too quick to dismiss the current one.
99 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:51:28
100 Posted 20/11/2017 at 16:56:43
Everton are in a bad phase at the moment but they have salvaged 4 points in the last two games that could easily have been zero but they got a few breaks which always helps.
We know all the problems and there is very little Unsy can do to rectify them as he has to go with what he has until January. Even if a new man comes in now he will be in the same boat.
Calvert-Lewin will come back on Thursday for Niasse and Rooney will probably replace Lookman with Mirallas getting the nod over Lennon. It's a nothing game so who really cares.
The big game is the next Premier League game against Southampton, so let's see if we can scrounge a result then.
101 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:03:54
Writing about fans who are not as composed as you or have less tact is as pointless as the abuse you mention. Not everybody can write like Greg O'Keefe and during a period like we are in its obvious your going to witness some over-reaction.
102 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:19:02
We are having to play two out-of-form defensive midfield players as cover, as our current batch of centre halves are a shambles, even Keane is now at sea, whereas 3 months ago he was supposed to be the next World Cup English centre half. We have no left side defensive cover, a total dereliction of duty by Walsh and the Board, we have 3 No 10's , and nocentre forward, again a huge Everton Board cock up. How can Walsh let Koeman try to inject 7 new players into a team, virtually all in one go and expect it to function, particularly against 5 of the top 6 teams in our season openers? How can Walsh and Co have let possible defensive cover in the shape of Pennington, Browning, and Connolly go out on season loans and also a possible left side attacker, Dowell, go out on a season long loan. Its total mis-management from the very top.
We are a shambles, and I'm afraid we will continue to be even post the Winter Transfer month as, once again, we will need to find at least 2 defenders, and 2 attackers who will take months to gel.
Whoever comes in can do no more than ensure we get to 40 points and then will have to do another massive clear out of the dead wood, and just somehow integrate another 5-8 players at the start of next season. It won't be a 3-year project, it will be a 6-year project to get us anywhere near the Top 4.
A TalkSport presenter today actually said "why would Silva want to come to Everton, he has more chance of winning things with his new Watford team and if so would then possibly be in the frame for a decent top 6 job" Everton will send him backwards for years ".
Sorry but, for me, Kenwright, Woods, Royle, Walsh, Ferguson all have to go stop the old boy's network !
103 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:31:04
With that being said I will continue to watch/listen to every game. If we cannot perform better against the worst team in the league and he see's a draw for the club as steps forward, he is just as bad as Martinez in observing what is happening on the pitch.
We were lucky to come out with a draw, the tactics were all wrong within the formation and even though he changed some players, the tactics did not change. It was the tactics that were all wrong not the players. <
He has no idea what he is doing with the senior club. "The players have given me everything in training and on the pitch in games" David Unsworth. Somebody get this guy some glasses, Crystal Palace had 70% possession and handed you a draw.
104 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:34:35
I always look at goal difference early to mid season as an indicator of possible final league positions and at the moment we are a bottom three club. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Sunderland were the last team we didn't concede to, need I say more?
He talks about being happy with incremental improvements in the team,I don't see any improvement in the defence. Unsworth has yet to pick a team that hasn't conceded and seems to have caught Koemanitis, where having made the wrong choices initially, sends a different team and tactics for the second half.
Plenty of chat over Silva, but we actually managed to beat his team! I hear he seems to be Moshiri's pick at the moment, but he is a relatively inexperienced manager at this level. Do you think he could organise our shambles of a defence? I heard someone on the radio, saying that Moshiri knows a lot about making money,but not much about football.
I know this is heresy to a lot of you, but seeing that very few if any quality managers are interested in us, we could offer Allardyce, say a 2-year contract with 6- to 9-months pay off if it doesn't work. Much cheaper than relegation and we know he can organise a defence, which is where most good teams start from. Just putting it out there. What do you think?
105 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:38:11
106 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:38:45
Players are not familiar with what each other are going to do and so lose the advantage of playing as a team. There is no connected play in any part of the pitch. There is no system apart from hoof it to Calvert-Lewin or Niasse.
Yet Dyche and Silva are within striking distance of Europe with the Burnley and Watford squads?
107 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:48:01
108 Posted 20/11/2017 at 17:58:10
However, my original concern has been borne out. We have not replaced Koeman, and as pointed out by David (#92) and the article posted by Greg (#95), our performances since Rhino took over have gotten worse, not better -- the fact that we've scrambled three desperate points notwithstanding.
Our performance at Palace was of abysmal quality, salvaged only by monumental work and sheer luck, and as Braun's article persuasively argues, Rhino's naive setup was largely to blame:
"David Unsworth set up his team to play scared against the worst team in the Premier League on Saturday. You can talk about individual performances until you're blue in the face, but it isn't going to change that fact. I've said it essentially every week since he took charge, but the truth remains as obvious as ever — "Unsworth isn't capable of managing this team."
109 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:00:40
The midfield was being over run so he weakened it even further by bringing another striker on, someone who can't hold up a ball and who has been finding it difficult to get into a game. And Lennon had been doing well.
It was the naive trick of throwing on another striker in the hope you will create something bu,t without a midfield playing well, it doesn't work.
I hope Unsworth's luck holds up against Southampton because I just can't see a good performance.
110 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:02:24
Ross Barkley is not the footballer we hoped he would be but Christ he makes the rest look shite in comparison.
I didn't want Rooney back. Klaassen was a wild punt as Dutch football is only mildly better than the SPL. Did the rest miss a bargain with Sandro? No. Michael Keane has been disappointing. (He is young so I will give him time) Sigurdsson? Got the right name he looks like he's smoked Klaassen's pot stash before he plays.
I can't blame the kids as they should be brought into a settled core of seasoned pro's not chucked in as a group to make up for the lack of effort from the seniors.
All-in-all Everton's coaching staff need to get the senior players much much fitter. Offer the greedy bastards a way out at the end of the season and plan to replace them now. All of them. Q. Name one you would keep?
Unsy, start measuring improvement in goals conceded. We might improve enough to finish outside the bottom three.
111 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:07:55
Initially I wasn't overly keen on Unsworth as a candidate for the permanent manager but the abject failures of a couple of foreign imports in the form of Martinez and Koeman and the talk about Silva makes me think "be careful what you wish for".
The immediate focus must surely be only on Premier League survival. In this respect I feel David Unsworth should, at least be given another two or three games. Hopefully, Barkley, Coleman and McCarthy may soon be available as alternatives to the Koeman imports.
If, however. a change is made, then I would prefer to see Sean Dyche given the opportunity.
112 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:21:38
Niasse is scoring a goal in the PL once every 76 minutes. A #9 is not our problem at the moment even though we still need another one in January if possible.
The Rooney talk is killing me. We have scored five goals in 113 minutes (plus stoppage) since he was substituted against Watford. He slows everything down even more. I hope Unsworth is phasing Rooney out just like ManU and England did.
Our main problem now starts at the back and no manager can save this defense. Baines is done in almost every way, Williams and Jags are old, slow, short and terrible on the ball. Keane is underperforming and has no one to partner with - he'll come good eventually. Kenny should come good too but he is so inexperienced. Everyone knows we need a left back, center back and Coleman back and in form. That's at least three new defenders.
From where I sit Unsworth is doing fine with 4 out of last 6 after only a few weeks on the job. The team is playing much harder and that's how you create your own luck. I also like that Unsworth makes changes at the half. Who came up with the "rule" that you should wait until the 60th minute? If it's not working after one half, fix it. It seems he reads the game and makes substitutions that have really made a difference. Unsworth appears to have some brains and I'll give him more time to keep figuring things out. He has real potential.
113 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:29:55
Please hope this is a late April Fool or anything but true.
114 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:33:45
I thought we just beat 2 out of 3 teams we should be beating and the performances were all poor but scrappy.
115 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:39:18
But we are Everton and we will probably flog him for £12m and think weve done the deal of the century.
116 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:51:42
Take the defence, apart from Kenny, who's probably been our best defender Jags, Baines and Williams are three of the most experienced defenders in the League, Keane is/was supposed to be a top defender, they know very well how to defend the problem is they cant now do it very well in Jags, Leighton and Williams case (could they ever) and the way Keane is playing, he's well over rated.
How experienced about defending is Unsworth? You mean to say he's not instructing the defence on what to do when the opposing teams are attacking? Its a joke to suggest that its the coach's fault.
No, far and away our biggest problem is the ability of the players their the ones who have to produce the goods on the field. It's all very well having a 'cunning plan' if the players have not the ability to carry them out.
As soon as we produce a top 6 quality player, they're gone to the top sides, add to that we cant sign any player that the top clubs want, that's the real reason we are going round in circles. We can change the manager a multitude of times but if the players are not good enough we are fooked for another generation.
117 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:56:48
I urge you to read it;
118 Posted 20/11/2017 at 18:58:49
Personally I'd be okay with Louis Van Gaal I quite like his slightly inane ramblings, and he's certainly got the experience of managing egos.
119 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:03:13
120 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:05:05
121 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:07:13
I think his goal on Saturday was a really confident finish. Yes we do need to strengthen, but small blessings.
That's what we need to look at given the time Unsworth's actually had training and given the whole "Caretaker" label.
I really want Rooney to work our, still. But he's not a starter, unless we have a tight run of games and someone needs a rest.
I've littered this site with pro-Unsworth support, not because I'm blinded by him being a blue, but it's because he's with us now and all the other names are speculation.
122 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:08:14
There is no other way for him to set up. He has to search for his best formula. We are absolutely toothless up front we have zero creativity and even less confidence. We have to approach every game simply to stay in it, and hope something breaks. We simply don't have the tools to open up teams with guile so we are trying to scrap our way out through pure endeavour.
I wrote an article back in the summer saying we are not signing the players to trouble the opposition. I said Koeman was building a house and he had forgotten to put the roof on. You responded by telling me Tinkerbelle was dying because I wouldn't clap... you couldn't understand why not everyone was ecstatic about the transfers.
The situation has not changed, we are relying on the heroic efforts of a cross between Paulo Wanchope and Calton Palmer. The only other realistic striker option is a willing teenager who's development was arrested by being played here, there, and everywhere by the former manager.
In Barkley's absence, our only source of creativity is an ageing superstar who moves like he's had one bevy too many, and the Icelandic snail for whom we paid a king's ransom. What team worth its salt wouldn't fancy their chances of shutting Everton out?
Our defenders are nervous wrecks. They know that the defensive midfield players couldn't pass water, they know if they give it to one of the tackling machines it will come back, so they hoof it as far away as possible knowing it will probably still come back.
Those expecting cohesive displays from the rabble Rhino inherited are fooling themselves; we are woefully short of creativity, pace, confidence and until recently, fight. You are expecting Unsworth to nail jelly to the fucking ceiling.
It amazes me that so many of the people who stuck by Koeman as he served up a year of zombie football, culminating in taking us down into the bottom three, now want to dismiss the chances of the guy who has taken us back out again. There is not a manager on this planets who could provide us with a magical cure. They would all be faced with the same problem.
Who's to say Dyche or Silva won't shit themselves if they got the gig? What do they know about big clubs whose fans are more demanding?
Rhino's my choice all day long.
123 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:09:23
124 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:09:30
The stats and pitch maps he provides are very damning. The fact that a reasonable looking team on paper basically morphed into a super defensive 4-5-1 speaks for itself. I've been asking for Lookman, but what chance does he have with these ultra negative ' tactics'? This is against the team at the bottom of the league FFS.
I'm gobsmacked at the people on here that say he should be "given time" HM Prison, Liverpool maybe. If we fail to get Silva, Dyche is surely a decent alternative. Either must be a big improvement.
Not Unsworth's fault, of course, he should never have been in this position.
126 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:16:17
127 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:24:18
128 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:30:00
Saying Unsworth lacks the nous and "no, he isn't up to it" is a step beyond scepticism. You're not simply doubting that he is equipped to do the job at this moment in time, but declaring that he definitely isn't.
A judgement reached after, at most, five games in quick succession (four of which have been on the road, where this squad of 'previously better performing' players have managed to rack up precisely one win since January) in which there have been seeds of improvement in fight, goals scored and points picked up, if not defensive solidity, cohesion or composure.
For me, the most pertinent part of Unsworth's presser was what seems to have been omitted above:
"The longer I can work with the players and keep them together the better it will be, but I know what will be, will be. We are training and playing in a bit of a different way from what we have been used to. Its not having a go at anyone else, its how I want to set about things. That will take a little bit of time. Im desperate to get this group of players on to the training field for a period of time when we can implement what we want to do.”
That it will take time, hard work and actual concerted coaching to remedy the many weaknesses we've watched be cruelly exposed week after week this campaign, makes perfect sense to me.
We are training and playing in a bit of a different way from what we have been used to. Its not having a go at anyone else, its how I want to set about things. That will take a little bit of time.
Im desperate to get this group of players on to the training field for a period of time when we can implement what we want to do.”
That any manager who struggles to hit the ground running, when faced with first wading through a Godzilla sized shit pile some other guy left parked on the starting line, must automatically be proper gash and has proven, conclusively, within space of a month, he is going to fail miserably? Not so much.
That some Mr Miagi like managerial maestro (Mr Nousi?) can stroll in, scan the dressing room and instigate an instant turnaround by having the same squad of players slap paint on his fence, before making a top secret tactical tweak he traded a bald Tibetan monk a big pack of pickled onion Monster Munch for? Fantastic if he could, but not fucking likely.
Whoever comes in is going to have to go down the same road, grit their teeth, get out on the training pitch, and work harder than a ginger lad looking to get laid in order to grind out results with this lot.
129 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:36:47
130 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:40:31
131 Posted 20/11/2017 at 19:43:16
132 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:00:59
Newcastle I suppose have a ready made stadium and already have a very good/top manager.
133 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:01:47
In each game, amongst the maelstrom of crappiness Ive seen tiny improvements from the players, and I believe Unsworth has shown he has learned from each experience, notwithstanding he has made some big errors.
With many of the senior squad probably thinking this fucker aint going to be around for long, so the respect isnt there. Thats stifles progress.
So rightly hes gone to younger players, who respect him and squad players he knows; Niasse & Lennon.
As a result progress is very hard to discern but like you I think the germ of a plan is there.
Everton gave to be very careful, Unsworth has overseen a bucket load of away games. With two potentially winnable home league games on the horizon; West Ham & Huddersfield. To quash that ember of improvement and drop in a new manager puts a huge pressure on those fixtures. Fixtures I believe would start to bear fruit in if left alone to develop.
The whispers are strong Silva will be appointed. I think thats ashame, Unsworth to Xmas was my shout, still is.
134 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:09:17
135 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:09:53
136 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:23:03
I see none. There's been no real improvement in goals scored, just in good fortune... balls that wound up in the back of the net off pens or keeper blunders. That luck and a whole lot of hard work produced our win and draw in five games, not any improvement in quality of play. We've "scored" one nice goal in those five games, Calvert-Lewin's sweet header off the corner. That's it.
As Ray (#76) pointed out, any manager who makes multiple changes at halftime is warding off impending disaster from the first half, and Rhino has done that four games in a row. Obviously it speaks well of his decisiveness, and his subs have been well-chosen, but it also speaks of a complete inability to set up a team for the start of the game.
He hasn't sent out one starting lineup that made any sense to me at all, and our first-half performances have been ghastly. A manager must command both strategy and tactics, but in my view, Rhino shows nothing strategically, then responds tactically in a way that has salvaged points in the past two games -- again with a big assist from luck. So yes, I'm convinced he's unqualified.
With the single exception of Pep, I've never known a manager to succeed at the top level without any senior managing experience at all. (Even Zidane had a season advising Mou and another assisting Ancelotti.) Maybe Rhino has that gift and will grow into the job, and I will cheer my lungs out and happily chow down on crow if he does.
But I don't expect it.
137 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:27:25
A question the new man needs to ask of anyone involved in the training, physio and playing side of the club is this What do you actually do to make things better here?
If they can't answer, that sod 'em off immediately. I reckon there will be quite a few empty lockers that day.
138 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:27:47
139 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:35:07
Surely between Kenwright, Moshiri and Walsh there is someone who can stick their neck out and either get a new manager (there's lots out there who would love to manage Everton) or appoint Unsworth (not my choice).
This is now going on far too long. If they can't make a decision, then they shouldn't be in charge of our great club. Get something sorted now!
140 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:41:43
Why for one minute should he be? He's never managed a senior side in any division. It just doesn't work that way. It's a reckless " punt" at best. The flattest, negative 4-5-1 against the mighty Palace. Brilliant.
And yes, Dennis, a proper manager to get us out of this hole, whether it's to the season end or further, it really doesn't matter. Call him what you like as long as he's got the ability. Permanent... caretaker... who gives one?
141 Posted 20/11/2017 at 20:53:33
Another caretaker manager? Ebbrell? Ferguson? If Unsworth is relieved of the responsibility after just a handful of matches [& I'm sure it would be a relief], who would want to replace him as caretaker?
We can't even get a replacement for Koeman as permanent manager!
142 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:02:09
The team lined up in a 4-2-3-1, the shape was clear if you watched the game. Sigurdsson did put in a shift and the shape shifted as we went a goal down and then as we tried to gain control of the midfield.
Because Unsworth is tactically astute, and Sigurdsson is a worker, he dropped deeper as we tried to gain that control. The 4-2-3-1 was how we were meant to play, but when you commit defensive blunders like we did, you have to rip the plans up and get back in the game. Once we did so, we somehow found ourselves second best again, until behind and then we shifted up a gear again before levelling and becoming second best once more.
The most telling of all the stats is that it was pretty much level for actual chances. Palace, for all their possession and joined up football, huffed, puffed and did little. Our two defensive blunders aside, we were able to comfortably withstand what else they threw at us.
We are getting better. Unsworth is right about that. The team is moving in the right direction. Unsworth just needs time.
For those of you, like the moron on RBM, who think he has had time, I ask you when?
He's been in charge a few weeks, yes that it true. But look at his schedule. He was in charge on a Monday, he then had a game twice a week until the international break. What happened in the international break? 2/3 of the squad disappear. He cannot train the team as 90% of the players he will use were away with their countries. They left on the Sunday after the Watford game and returned on Thursday or Friday.
To put it in simple terms, Unsworth has NOT had two back to back full on training sessions since he took charge. He or whoever else takes over, cannot do anything to fix this mess until December 16th which is when he will have the team for a week for the first time this season. Then we won't get another week until mid-January.
Unsworth doesn't have a magic wand. He can't whisper a few magic words to each player and suddenly they are cured of all of their ills. No, one is fixing this mess before the end of January.
What he has done so far has been good. It's baby steps. And we are moving in the right direction and the players do want to play for him, they scrap for him, and they are not giving up like they did under Koeman.
143 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:06:26
There's no smoke without fire, as they say. Would he be a fit for us though, doesn't seem the sort to get his hands dirty, so it's a "No thanks" from me.
144 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:06:32
145 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:07:31
Just because he played for Everton doesn't mean he should get more time. Face it, he's not up to the job.
146 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:07:42
Kenny Dalglish did the double in his first season as a manager.
If you want more recent than that, then you're not being very fair as you can count on one hand the amount of first team managers we have had since the Premier League began. Most Premier League managers are foreign and so come with a glittering CV and a bucket load of experience.
Unsworth's Premier League record still reads, played 4, won 2, drew 1, lost 1. You are being far too unfair with what you have said so far, and it's far from accurate.
147 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:08:03
148 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:12:03
149 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:16:42
We've taken 4 points from the last 2 games. A further 4 from the next 2 would as good (better?) than any reasonable person could expect, surely?
People keep mentioning how bad Palace are, but, they've picked up over the last few games. This was their 3rd home game in a row that they've scored twice in, including against the champions, Chelsea. Who they beat 2-1.
What are the alternatives? A fella that got relegated last season. Despite not being in the relegation zone with only 3 games remaining. Who then lost the lot by an aggregate score of 13-1 !
Or, a guy who's taken 5 years to assemble a team capable of putting a few 1 nil wins together. When they're not losing at home to West Brom and drawing nil-nil with Huddersfield that is. Not exactly exciting options are they? :)
150 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:18:58
I'm merely asking, not unreasonably, what do we do next, as we seem to have no permanent appointment sorted out yet. Presumably we would have to look at a replacement caretaker manager, but I can't imagine who.
I agree that some others seem opposed to him getting the gig either permanently or even for the rest of the season. Being that you say your opposition is to a longer term appointment, I'm surprised you've responded as though my query applied to you.
151 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:19:26
Usually, if manager gets the bullet, the first team coach will take over the interim position, In our case, wouldn't this be Duncan Ferguson? Or is he not capable? So now our whole coaching set up is 100% populated by ex-players. Ebrell, Unsworth, Royle, Jeffers & Ferguson. Good old Bill, eh? Why not bring a few more in? Hibbo & Ossie can't be far off coming back, surely.
Whatever is going on, it's a shambles, as per.
152 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:19:41
Unsworth has clearly been making improvements and this must have been done in the video sessions. But footballers have notoriously short attention spans and will not take on board what is shown their unless it is kept short and to the point.
153 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:20:27
154 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:22:35
If Unsworth is given the job permanently, then he can go off and hire some decent coaches to fill the voids. No one would come to Everton on a month long deal. These coaches are not paid mega-bucks and so they will not leave the comfort of their current employment, even if it is a division or two below.
You want top coaches, as do we all. But we can only recruit these once we have certainty.
155 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:23:54
156 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:24:30
Sorry if I misunderstood, Obviously not bin Unsworth until a replacement is found (an established manager), not one of the same ilk. Silva, Dyche, Van Gaal if it comes to it.
I'm not anti Unsworth. I'm anti complete novice...
157 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:27:46
I would read all your comments, but I start work at 6. I believe in quality, not quantity.
158 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:32:37
What we need right now, more than anything, is to stop the season and have 3 or 4 weeks coaching the team, and getting everyone fit. Things will be different once the Christmas rush is over by the middle of January, and Europe is done, and we can get down to playing a game every 7 days, and then we can get a grip of everything on the training pitch, until then, quite simply, to expect anything different is complete fantasy.
159 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:33:57
160 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:35:00
161 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:36:40
162 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:42:50
It is extremely harsh to be writing Unsworth off after the last 5 games and I am in the 'seeing signs of improvement' camp. There's no way he is going to be there for the long haul but to be belittling his efforts to the degree that some on here and elsewhere have is absurd. As a group we need to get behind him over this temporary period and hope that the incumbent manager proves to be third time lucky. Who that might best be I frankly have no idea, but it seems that virtually every Premier League manager in the top half outside the top 6 has been mentioned except the Brighton fella – Chris Hughton.
Not a suggestion – Just saying, like.
163 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:44:04
Tell me this is a wind-up. Gary Megson was one of your favourite players.
164 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:49:46
Someone is going to need time and support here. If we appoint someone else, it will be the last throw of the dice. We will not and cannot sack another manager this season. Say we appoint Silva and we suffer a couple of heavy defeats, not an impossible, scenario as he has form for it. What is left but the Championship?
In my view, David Unsworth is being judged by absurd standards. If Silva or any manager on earth came in here he would, short term at least, require a large slice of luck to get the instant results that some demand.
We do not need to roll the dice yet. It is November, we are not in the bottom three and things have improved. I hope and believe that Unsworth will make us safe and allow time for reasonable consideration.
165 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:53:43
I think you judgement of the Palace game is correct.
I think the shape was clear, 4-2-3-1. It had balance and players in their rightful position.
Schneiderlin's inclusion, most unpopular was IMO there to give us physicality. Beni & Gana too small against the bears in Palace's team.
Valid criticism lay in how deep we played, it rendered Lookman especially inert.
Twice we pressed high, it yielded both goals.
Unsworth adjusted and made us play higher in the 2nd half. Davies, Calvert-Lewin pressed. We created a golden chance and an assault from Sakho.
As soon as the yellow neutered Davies, we slumped back.
Baby steps, tiny improvements but they are there.
166 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:55:54
Don't you think that the first part is to try and solidify us slightly? He's not only done so but actually got us to fight back rather than continuing to just get whipped. Is utmost you'd advocate a 4-4-2, and all would be well. Honestly, what utter nonsense.
"I want a Proper manager" yes, and you'll be singing the same song as West Ham were by Christmas when they've only just organised us to where we are now under Unsworth.
167 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:56:08
Also, how many of you have played football at any level? How often did you talk about (or if good enough be told by a manager / coach) playing a certain way, yet once you got out on the pitch, you just couldn't get to grips with it.
The amount of times, I went into games with just one instruction, hit the by-line and whip it in. And yet, I was unable to do so as the opposition fullback would have me penned back in my own half. Sometimes, the manager can make plans, but the players are unable or cannot execute them. Then the manager has to make changes to get a grip.
This is Unsworth, his team are not doing as they were instructed. He's bold and he makes changes. Without drilling them into how he wants to play, he can simply tell them, and then make changes when it's not working.
The guys on the bench can see this, they can be given instructions by Unsworth and so are able to shift things around. He's doing that. He's showing the signs of being a good head-coach. He just needs to get out on the training pitch and get a proper grip of this team and then we can see the real Unsworth, the one we can judge, and then you can say he lacks tactical nous
168 Posted 20/11/2017 at 21:59:00
I reckon they were anticipating last weekend's match at Selhurst Park would be the first game under the new permanent manager, with Unsworth either remaining part of the coaching team or returning to take charge of the U23s. I don't think the intention was for the novice to remain in charge indefinitely, at least not unless he surprised everyone by getting to the break with something like 3 wins & a draw under his belt.
As it is, there seems little choice but to continue with Unsworth pending a resolution at Board level. Even a replacement for the rest of the season would be very much one step back in the hope of two forwards, imo.
169 Posted 20/11/2017 at 22:05:56
I don't know the record paid for a manager, but £10m might be it, usually you hear of £1m or £2m. These are serious bids. He would expect Watford to bite his hand off.
Silva has made it damn clear he wants to come by refusing to say he doesn't want the job, and hinting strongly he does. No doubt his agent has made his feelings very clear to Everton.
170 Posted 20/11/2017 at 22:42:45
We played a good Leicester side away and lost because we weren't cynical enough and Kenny (not ready) sliced a ball in his own net. Unsworth made a mistake taking the wingers off to add to our midfield when he could have taken one striker (Rooney or Calvert-Lewin) off instead. The wingers were our only decent threat in that first half.
We then got a very lucky win against an average side at home. A vital 3 points through a pure lucky comeback.
And we have drawn with the worst side in the league this weekend, again with a ton of luck. Littered with individual mistakes.
We are completely awful and will remain so until Barkley and Coleman return.
Just think about it. I know you all think coaching is black magic and scouting is miracle working but football is really simple. Allardyce has proven he can make a team more organised and cynical and there's not much else a manager could do before January. (February as they tend to arrive on the last day of window).
Our players are shit. Rooney is the only player to have played top level Champions League football. Coleman probably could. Barkley will be in January or next season. None of the kids that all the fans love probably never will. Or they are years away from it. Keane is dogshit, Jags and Williams finished and Pickford is 6'-1" and already gave four goals away.
Imho We are shit because are players are shit. Walsh is a joke for signing them and should be sacked. And if Moshiri is serious about taking us forward then a prerequisite of any signing should be; a current full international, that is fast and strong enough for the Premier League. Scouting potential like Lookman is unnecessary at this moment in time. Especially when we produce our own and need players in the first team.
Does anyone deep down really believe Lookman will ever play for England regularly? And England are poor.
Basically, super coach Ferns can say all he wants on here but unless we buy some new players we will be extremely lucky to stay up.
And all you Moshiri fans, just remember, this fella tried to sell Barkley, Niasse and Mirallas even after he knew we were not getting a striker.
171 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:02:38
And Allardyce took 8 games to get Palace organised. If you actually look into it, you'll see that came after a much criticised trip to Dubai. He also had plenty of time, a week between nearly every game, and it was a good 6 weeks after he was appointed that the results came.
Unsworth can only dream of having the time Allardyce had to get his team organised, and I bet he'd love to take the team away to Dubai for a week to really work on them in warm weather training.
172 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:16:33
A bit harsh on one or two. Generally you got it spot on. We can't go on buying "for the future" when we need replacements now.
We recruited really poorly in the summer. We knew about Lukaku leaving. Coleman being a long term casualty. Baines having no replacement if injured (poor form)
We bought a player who can't get a work permit and sent several out on loan. One of these was Pennington who had some limited Premier League experience.
Barkley should have gone (not that I want him to). As this was publicly drawn out and makes the club look indecisive.
Most clubs bring their youth players into the 1st team but not 5/6 at a time. You can argue that some of them have had long enough in the team last season, season before, but they are still youth players.
Holgate, Davies and Calvert-Lewin have looked short on confidence and quality this term. Kenny is learning on the job and Keane needs a lot of help positionally.
Pickford is a bright young goalie who I believe will be a great keeper in the next 3/4 years. The problem is he needs to be taken out the firing line at the moment to protect his confidence from long term damage.
Come January I would be asking the likes of Mirallas, Schneiderlin, Lennon, Klaassen and Gana if they can offer us anything for the next 3 seasons... and, if not, thanks but see ya. Rooney and Sigurdsson need a good kick up their arses and need to prove they are worthy of a shirt.
Back to our "diamond" Ross "I would rather leave for nothing" Barkley. It's not just Koeman then as he hasn't signed a new deal. I don't think he has the stomach for a fight at the bottom end of the league.
173 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:22:41
174 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:36:53
175 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:42:43
Playing behind a confident defence in a friendly and playing for us at the moment are completely different scenarios.
176 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:49:25
177 Posted 20/11/2017 at 23:56:40
178 Posted 21/11/2017 at 00:08:30
There's few journos out there who give a proper critique of keepers. The main one is ex Premier League Goalie, David Preece, who being from the north east, pays close attention to Pickford and he rates him as having unlimited potential.
I'll take his opinion and that of Southall every day of the week over Joey Barton, who by the way says Michael Keane is "top class". So Barton thinks Pickford is crap and Keane is top class. That sums up Barton's ability to judge the two on current form. He's a clueless idiot who says whatever he can to make himself relevant. Every time he goes on the radio he makes a controversial comment. I doubt he actually believes half the crap he comes out with, he just says it to try to make a career for himself and get himself on to TV.
179 Posted 20/11/2017 at 00:10:09
"We've "scored" one nice goal in those five games, Calvert-Lewin's sweet header off the corner. That's it"
We've only scored one 'nice' goal, Mike?
You know as well as I do, it matters not how they go in, who off, or whether an opposition player cocked up on the way, as long as they end up over the line. If you're just going to discount any goals arising from defensive mistakes, spot kicks or a bit of good fortune, then you're deliberately drawing the curtains on your chances of 'detecting' improvement in that area, surely?
Under Koeman we scored five in his last seven league games and consistently struggled to create chances. We've managed to grab five in the last two and could have had several more if Baines, Sigurdsson and Calvert-Lewin hadn't failed to capatilise on the great chances that fell their way.
As for those thrust into a first time managerial role ever achieving any sort of success? It's not completely unheard of on these shores. Chelsea broke their decades long trophy drought after turning to a complete novice with no prior experience who was promoted from within. They went on to add another four under the experience lacking managerial novice already at the club who they gave the job to next.
I'm not making any claims that Unsworth can go on to do similar, but the suggestion that a coach will probably be unsure, or at a complete loss, what to do with the first team when he gets his hands on them, simply because he's never been tasked with doing it at that level before, is more fuelled by preconvieved notions of how 'the next guys' CV should read, rather than any corroborative evidence relating to the particular individual. Hence, the haste by some to say "well, I was willing to give Unsworth a chance but he's now shown, beyond a shadow of a doubt, he's completely out of his depth", before even a couple of weeks had gone by.
180 Posted 21/11/2017 at 00:21:07
181 Posted 21/11/2017 at 00:37:18
182 Posted 21/11/2017 at 00:45:39
183 Posted 21/11/2017 at 01:46:51
184 Posted 21/11/2017 at 02:38:49
I think confidence is what is holding us back at the moment that and general crapness, of course.
185 Posted 21/11/2017 at 05:13:27
Perhaps my sarcasm wasn't up to scratch there.
186 Posted 21/11/2017 at 05:15:26
"With the single exception of Pep, I've never known a manager to succeed at top level without any senior management experience."
The crowd across the park turned themselves into a world wide brand by dominating the domestic and European game managed by a couple of guys who had never managed before.
Steve Ferns is bang on the money. He has seen through the utter nonsense produced by Adam Braun at RBM I knew he would.
I have to agree with Andy Crooks too. There is a certain absurdity to dismissing a guy as lacking "tactical nouse" when he has barely had the chance to get his players on the training ground... You guys do realise that if Silva, Dyche, or Fireman Sam were given the job, it would have been the same for them too?
187 Posted 21/11/2017 at 05:16:41
188 Posted 21/11/2017 at 05:20:37
189 Posted 21/11/2017 at 06:45:00
Regardless of who's in charge, it won't be good enough not in a Nil Satis Nisi Optimum way, but more of a toddler stomping their feet and drawing a picture of their friend Joey BetFred-Barton with their own poo.
190 Posted 21/11/2017 at 06:48:30
All this nonsense about a lack of training sessions is outrageous. I wonder if West Brom are going to forget about a manager under this theory?
191 Posted 21/11/2017 at 07:19:05
Just looked on the BBC Sport football site. Rumours and speculation I know, but it's all about which recently-sacked manager may go to a club that has just or is about to, sack their manager and where that sacked manager may go to replace a previously sacked one etc. A manager merry-go-round.
It's looking more and more like it's either an engineered bread-and-circuses fiasco, or as though eventual success may all come down to unknowingly stumbling upon the right manager based on pure luck... or stumbling upon the wrong one.
If for these reasons alone, I'd rather buck the trend and give our current "Manager" the help and support to develop into something we do understand.
192 Posted 21/11/2017 at 07:44:46
I enjoy reading your posts and analysis.
But "90% of the players he works with are away on international duty"?
193 Posted 21/11/2017 at 07:51:11
And for the record, I complimented Rhino's in-game tactics. The nous he lacks... utterly and completely in my opinion... is strategic. The training ground excuse doesn't cover his inability to set up a team for a game -- he's already far more familiar with his players and their capabilities than a new manager would be. Yet he keeps sending out these odd lineups, with predictably disastrous results that he has to scramble to repair at halftime.
Also for the record, I have never had the slightest interest in Dyche, Silva or (god forbid) Ugly Sam taking over this club.
194 Posted 21/11/2017 at 07:54:44
Too early to judge Unsworth and if he gets replaced, I wouldn't expect four wins out of four either.
And I have money on us not being relegated. Like the 'relegation crisis' two years ago, I expect to collect.
195 Posted 21/11/2017 at 08:35:50
What on earth has the era got to do with it? You said to your knowledge only Pep had done it. You have been given three examples.
You are asking yourself the wrong question: it's not about "being successful" in terms of winning things. There are many examples where a novice manager has been successful in a "mission accomplished" sense. We're not asking Unsworth to win the league we are asking him to steer us clear from relegation. That, under the current circumstances, would be a clear success.
You are a little quick to tell others that they are talking pure shite, but having realized that Unsworth has not been able to get his players on the training ground, you now narrow your criticism down to team selection.
Given that you are known on this site to be an admirer of Idrissa and Morgan and that the back five almost picks itself, I wonder what blindingly insightful team selections you could share with us to back up your repeated criticism of the caretaker manager?
I wonder who you would want instead and who you think they would select from those who have been left out?
196 Posted 21/11/2017 at 08:54:00
197 Posted 21/11/2017 at 09:02:19
198 Posted 21/11/2017 at 09:17:48
If you actually go and look at the way those clubs are run, you'll understand what I mean.
I see Koeman is in the running for the West Brom job.
I'd like to see Van Gaal get the job for the rest of the season.
199 Posted 21/11/2017 at 09:54:36
200 Posted 21/11/2017 at 10:05:14
We have to work the back 4 so that they know the correct line to play. They have been far too deep all season long. In tandem with this, our line of midfield (the Gueye and Schneiderlin position) is also far too deep.
It's not simple enough to say to a player how high the line should be, they need to make adjustments in training and then this filters through to the game, and it will take about 5 weeks of solid training with one game a week before you see a real effect.
Shape goes hand-in-hand with setting the line. You also need to work on players individual roles and instructions. It's all well and good setting up in a 4-4-2. However, if you tell the central two to sit, and allow the wingers to get forwards, but then tell one of the strikers he needs to drop off, then what have you got? A 4-2-3-1, that's what. The set up needs to be carefully and relentlessly drilled into the players. They need to understand their roles.
Too often Davies, Gueye and Baningime have all vacated the middle of the park and charged forward in an uncoordinated manner to attack the ball or support an attack. This is evidence of them being told something by Unsworth but not having the time to put in, on the training pitch to actually get some cohesion and to work together, so that one does sit, if the other goes.
Another big problem he has tried to address is tempo. The tempo has been far too slow. This has improved, but mainly due to whacking it forwards more. We need to mix up the passing, by playing more short passes, but continuing to play those passes quickly and directly.
Following on from that is the press or closing down. It's all well and good to talk about closing down, but how do you close down. Do you block passing lanes like Guardiola? Or do you attack the man on the ball. Pressing might sound easy. It's just closing down the man on the ball afterall. But if it is not done correctly, teams can cut through you very quickly. You need to train to hunt in packs and work out which style of pressing you intend to implement. Good pressing requires all 10 players and comes from months of work on the training pitch.
So Mike. It's not a training ground excuse. How on earth can unsworth effect changes? He's not a silver tongued Cicero who can whisper a few magic words and every player suddenly has total clarity on their roles, requirements and the team strategy. This takes weeks and weeks of drilling. They defence still needs to unlearn all what Koeman had them doing and the midfield needs to disregard all the slow build up crap that he introduced over the summer.
201 Posted 21/11/2017 at 10:22:50
As if these players don't know how to return to type if things go wrong. What, a defensive midfielder has forgotten how to tackle?
Your Schneiderlin Sigurdsson mind-reading theory of Koeman's is madness. Using Klaassen's speed of touch in the Dutch league to interpret what went wrong with our midfield is mad.
Cruyff said a lot of things, by the way. I will reserve judgement on Klaassen but I doubt Barkley has a worse touch than Klaassen.
As another poster said, the players are basically not good enough. If you think any manager can set us up to play the pressing game with a slow team, you haven't studied football half as much as you like to put it out there.
202 Posted 21/11/2017 at 10:28:18
The players there are good enough, and they just need some good coaching and a run of results to get their confidence back.
203 Posted 21/11/2017 at 10:57:18
So Koeman spent £250 million. Doesn't make them good players. Just makes Koeman and Walsh poor judges of players. The Premier League table doesn't lie, does it?
We are where we are because we've got a poor squad. Maybe the injured players will make a difference... who knows? Stop trying to justify Koeman's signings they're poor, end of.
204 Posted 21/11/2017 at 10:59:15
Im just looking forward to next season now.
205 Posted 21/11/2017 at 11:00:26
Going Dutch again? I don't like this!
206 Posted 21/11/2017 at 11:00:48
I give you exhibit A: "Koeman spent £250m on these players. How can they not be good enough".
Anyone else see a problem with that statement of his?
207 Posted 21/11/2017 at 11:02:32
They didn't only lose the second highest goalscorer in the Premier League, they sold Gareth Barry and have been missing Coleman and Barkley and Bolasie.
Just to highlight what a disaster the window was, our next highest goalscorer to Lukaku had I think 6 league goals. So we needed 2 of 3 strikers as the 2nd highest scorer hasn't played yet this season and looks like he will move in January.
208 Posted 21/11/2017 at 11:14:28
When a good player joins a club that's struggling or in the midst of change, or in some disarray as we seem to be, there's a good chance that they'll struggle. They were signed for a reason (because they're good), but that doesn't stop them struggling.
Any team needs good organisation, tactics and motivation. To believe otherwise is, so far as I can see, naieve. Unsworth has made clear progress with respect to motivation, but the organisation and tactics need improving as well.
Every time the team struggles, some fans come out with the mantra, "the squad is shite, needs a complete overhaul, bla bla bla". They even criticise the younger players who've just come from the Under-23s. And the mantra "we're fucked, we're going down, it's all Kenwright's fault, bla bla bla". It's one thing being a bit down because the team is struggling, but let's get a grip on reality.
209 Posted 21/11/2017 at 11:15:45
How many of them were worth Lukaku money? Not one. A lot of people think Lukaku isn't top drawer (which again is insane) so, if he is worth £75 million, that doesn't say much for our £25 million men.
Now that doesn't mean every signing is poor. Age and potential come into it everytime so anybody over 25 that only costs £25 million is an average player the top sides won't touch.
By the way, Steve, it's not for us to tell you why they're not good enough. You tell us why they are. Nobody you mentioned has any silver to the CV. Not one away win since they came here. Look where we are in the table, how many we concede.
All the evidence suggests these players, no matter how often they train, they are not good enough. Not for me anyway. How many top drawer performances have you seen from Schneiderlin? I am fed up of fans who think we only play at Goodison too.
And Steve, before I finish. Without Lukaku last season, yes we were shit. And would have been in trouble.
210 Posted 21/11/2017 at 12:00:23
But we haven't done that, so we'll continue with mid-table for the moment, with the occasional brush towards the bottom. That's been Everton, it's supposed to change under Moshiri, but there's little or no sign of such change. Perhaps the players are 'not good enough' to reach and maintain 'top-6' level. We don't know unless the team is well organised. But I'm clear that the players are better than 'relegation material'.
211 Posted 21/11/2017 at 12:13:14
Well and truly nailed Stan.
Since they first arrived at the club or emerged from our academy, I consistently said the quartet of Stones, Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley had exactly the right age, ability, ambition, potential and overall profile we should look to both recruit more of and retain and add to.
Sadly, as you are all too aware, 3/4s of that quartet have moved on. Moshiri inherited all four players, but as you correctly call, there is yet any hard evidence of a 'brave new world' that things on the playing side and overall business model has really changed.
Would we be where we are today if all four were available to us..?
Sadly, as you are also aware, there were plenty of Blues who couldn't wait to take whatever coin we could for said players, or 'drive them themselves' to their new destination.
212 Posted 21/11/2017 at 12:30:29
213 Posted 21/11/2017 at 12:33:55
214 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:01:30
We bought good players this summer, not the ones that were critically needed. They have been confused as the rest of us by this season's 'tactics'. I think they'll come good under a decent coach.
Regarding the four players. Stones & Lukaku consistently said they wanted to play in better teams. Had Moshiri & Koeman acted with urgency and strengthened the squad immediately, they may have stayed. But they were complacent and effectively tanked two transfer windows. Barkley is still here; I suspect he has similar thoughts to the other two. I'd have driven Deufelou to the airport. Talented player, not physically/mentally tough enough for this league. Great player until he played.
This is a great job for anyone brave and ambitious. A half-decent squad, money to get replacements. As far as I'm concerned, they can take as long as they like, providing they sort out how everyone works together to make the team and club run properly.
I'd like someone with Chris Coleman's attitude. He's gone to a basket-case club, acknowledges the trouble they're in, but knows he'll be a hero when he gets it right. We're nowhere near the state they're in.
215 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:14:24
I would add Deulofeu to Lukaku, Stones and Barkely as players who we needed to keep when we bought some new additions, if we were serious about top 6.
Deulofeu ('unfit. inconsistent, not bothered) now has 10 games under his belt at Barcelona.
Lukaku ('lazy, disruptive, awful touch') is still scoring a few goals for someone.
Stones ('sulky, liability, can't defend') is being coached to be potentially one of the best defenders in Europe.
Barkley ('inconsistent, dithering, thick') ........err hope he stays.
On your last point, I too reserve judgement on the quality of our current squad until one or two players are back fit and, more importantly, there is evidence on the pitch of them being well organised and coached.
216 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:22:24
That is a frustration for us, because we've been consistently 10 to 12 points below 'top-6' (and 10 points below Liverpool, which could change significantly if we knew how the handle a derby). That margin is not a big one, and is (imo) breakable with the squad we've got so long as they are well organised.
Of course, it might have been more readily breakable if we'd kept Stones, Lukaku, et al. Water under the bridge, up to a point, but I'm hoping that Moshiri has learned something. That the value to Everton of keeping your best players can outweigh the value of selling them and trying to replace them with players who are not as good. Only time will tell.
217 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:35:51
What a nucleus of a team the 4 players you mention would have been.
It's a shame some of our so-called fans couldn't see their potential, especially at home games where Stones and Barkley in particular, were regularly screamed at for daring to look for a positive pass and not hoofing it aimlessly upfield. I lost count of the number of times I heard our 'supporters' saying . "Just sell him. I'd take the money. He's playing for a move. etc, etc."
218 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:50:55
219 Posted 21/11/2017 at 13:52:54
On the other hand we could be plunged into even worse depression!
220 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:13:12
I believe he has real ambition to get us into the Champions League (and more depending on how we do with that first aim) and regularly so, otherwise I can't possibly see why he would have been so determined to hire Koeman at £6M/year.
In this sense, I think it's a case of simple mismanagement in player sales and purchases, in his first real stab at moving us forward. If that is the case, it's surely something he'll learn from, given that he's supposed to be an astute businessman. If not, we're unlikely to progress, and can then look forward to averaging 58 points (or thereabouts) for the foreseeable future. Unless someone like Usmanov arrives.
In the meantime, those ToffeeWebbers who have habitually criticised our best players as lazy show ponies, and who wanted grafters to the cause of Everton, may have got what they desired. At the moment, graft over entertaining and effective attacking football is what we have to look forward to, and Unsworth certainly has credentials to get that, given He was one of Joe Royle's Dogs of War.
But having said that, he also has at least some credentials for football with flair, given the performances of the Under-23s. Which means that, if he can steady the ship and induce confidence, good attacking football could come as a matter of course.
We often heard the phrase 'trust in Koeman' last season. Perhaps at the moment, it's a case of 'trust in Unsworth'.
221 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:20:22
222 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:24:08
223 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:32:23
I could be wrong about that and it could be that it came about from a couple of managers making promises but surely it was reported back to the Board at some time. However, it does seem to have a pattern of involving those players who appeared to me as the most skillful, certainly possessing the ability to beat a man.
224 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:50:11
225 Posted 21/11/2017 at 15:54:37
We are improving, just very, very slightly but have faith. At least the players seem to be fighting now. No panic buy managers please, don't just get it done, get it right.
226 Posted 21/11/2017 at 16:28:00
One thing we didn't like was that we brought in three similar players in Rooney, Sigurdsson and Klaassen. We also then lost our main goal scorer and failed to replace him.
Now its a case of Klaassen (captain of Ajax) is not good enough, Sandro (great at Malaga) not good enough, Sigurdsson (brilliant at Swansea) not good enough, Keane (great at Burnley) not good enough. Rooney (people having second thoughts) Vlasic (our best player until dropped).
I am sure if we get the right manager in (not Unsworth) then he should be able to get at least a couple of our buys up to the standard they were playing before we bought them. We need a proven manager, not someone who did okay with an U23 side which had some really good players and did well to win the Premier League 2.
Why everything has gone quiet on the manager front doesn't look good. We have got to get points and the only way is to get a top manager; if we need to pay out the money, it will be worth it in the end to stay in the Premier League.
We have got to get points out of our next three games, which are all winnable, before we start to play any of the top teams where if we are still playing the same way, we will get slaughtered.
227 Posted 21/11/2017 at 16:45:59
228 Posted 21/11/2017 at 16:46:17
229 Posted 21/11/2017 at 16:51:40
My reference to "shite" was in response to a comment that Unsworth was taking more abuse here than Koeman had. I stand by my response.
Regarding novice managers, I said "I knew of" no others besides Pep. Others pointed to Dalglish and Gullit, both of whom go back almost 30 years (back before I could watch English league games here in the US). Mea culpa, but the fact remains that elevating the youth coach to the senior side with no previous senior experience is virtually unknown in this era.
And if you think I've been a booster of Schneiderlin's play this season, you haven't been reading my posts. I've been a harsh critic, repeatedly pointing to his two bottled challenges that have cost us goals among other things. I want him out of the lineup NOW.
Your sarcasm aside, I've repeatedly advocated one holding mid instead of two and keeping Sigurdsson in the middle of the field. Nothing genius about either of those. Neither has really occurred, although Sigurdsson finally spent some extended time as the #10 on Saturday.
Steve #200, we're both speculating. When Rhino gets the time he wants with his team on the training ground, we'll see if things improve.
230 Posted 21/11/2017 at 17:04:42
We can't press from the front. We can't keep hold of the ball, We cant press teams back. We have no real threat going forward. Two holding midfield players is not the problem. Gana and Schneidelin just don't gel. Our attacking options are extremely weak and limited. We sit too deep.
If it wasn't for the transfer window, I'd keep Unsworth for the rest of the season. But we do have a window coming up... so I guess it's up to Walsh to figure out what he thinks we need to reshape the bollox we are watching.
231 Posted 21/11/2017 at 17:13:22
I think David Pearl is onto something too. Gana can go box to box. Unfortunately, and I hate saying this because he actually tries to be a proper footballer, but he is not good enough.
It's absolute essential both your central players are at least good distributors of the ball. Ours are not.
232 Posted 21/11/2017 at 17:23:04
I'd hate to think a new manager comes in and there's still no clarity on who buys the squad.
As far as I can see, since Moshiri arrived we have tried to buy the best players from relegated sides or relegation battlers.
233 Posted 21/11/2017 at 19:18:07
Because he is a blue, he is being slammed by posters who want someone new, who on the wafer thin evidence before us assert he is not up to the job.
This job will take some being up to!
To Mike Gaynes, and frankly, Mike, I am surprised by your posts on this thread, and others; How long will you give the new coach, whom you are unprepared to name? The same time as Unsworth?
What do you want? We are in trouble, Mike, you appear to know what the answer isn't. Well what is the answer? Not up to you? Fair enough.
234 Posted 21/11/2017 at 20:59:12
This is precisely why we specifically got Koeman but they failed to fully understand the part played by Les Reid. Walsh was supposed to do that bit.
Some PR and the stadium with the occasional dream of a cup was considered enough to bring the fans along in the brave new dawn. Maybe the plan ultimately was to develop to the level of a top club some way down the road, maybe not.
Either way, the board and owners have been well and truly bitten on the arse. Corporate thinking still doesn't work for everything and "The market" isn't (yet) God. Their computer modelling doesn't work for football, which for now, isn't quite as predictable as Facebook.
There's been talk of money available to throw at a manager, but this is small potatoes compared to player costs. There won't be much more money for that IMO, and we'll see more sales yet.
235 Posted 21/11/2017 at 21:21:48
We could play like that two years ago, and we supposedly have a 'new era' with 'new money', but we've regressed. Very frustrating, but very Everton. I suspect we'll be averaging 58 points a season for some time to come, barring Usmanov or someone comparable.
236 Posted 21/11/2017 at 22:02:12
Everyone who criticised those young players should hang their heads in shame.
If you criticised them whilst also lauding McCarthy, Schneiderlin, Gana, Keane and Pickford, then you are absolutely clueless where football is concerned.
237 Posted 22/11/2017 at 04:11:58
(He wouldn't be here long, partly because he's wildly ambitious and partly because he has a gift for pissing off owners, press and fans with his arrogance, but he wins.)
And my second choice would be a name I've never seen mentioned here, David Wagner at Huddersfield, who studied under both Klopp and Tuchel and whom I met when he played for the USA.
Regarding your comment about Unsworth: "Because he is a blue, he is being slammed by posters who want someone new..." I would point out that, if he wasn't a Blue, he wouldn't have the job in the first place.
But I promise you my criticism of his performance so far has nothing to do with him being one of ours. Had we hired a youth coach with no senior experience as manager from another club, and that fellow had sent out the lineups we've seen and then made multiple subs at half-time of each game, I'd say he was in over his head.
And I'd suspect that if this wasn't Rhino, a Blue's Blue, a man we all love and respect, you'd be right beside me saying the same thing.
Again, I devoutly hope you're right and folks like Steve and Dave are right and I'm wrong, because with the rumour mill gone nearly silent, it appears he's going to be managing us for a while.
238 Posted 22/11/2017 at 04:16:54
239 Posted 22/11/2017 at 05:01:02
Come on, now. You know you and I have had several discussions concerning our two tackling machines. I pointed out neither were top class and accused them of going to ground far too often. Yes, I know it was last season, but you can't surely be arguing against their inclusion in the team? Not after you put all those stats up to refute my observations.
The point Dave makes is a valid one. It's common amongst those who have criticised Unsworth's team selection to complain when he selects players they have talked up in the past and complain when he has left out players who they have murdered in the past. (See Marshy complaining that Calvert-Lewin wasn't selected in a tournament he has no time for...)
As for inexperienced coaches not getting to sit on the thrown, it's really strange that you should write off the examples you are given because you were not watching at the time. It still happened.
How many teams who are looking for somebody to steady the ship are lucky enough to have a guy in their ranks who has just surprised all the big clubs by lifting the reserve team trophy? Answer: none.
Unsworth's taking the helm was a complete no-brainer, although I have no doubt at all that those who are writing him off now will create the mother of shit storms if he doesn't win at Southampton. That's the kind of pressure you critics have him working under.
It doesn't matter; he will steer us clear of the relegation zone and all talk of appointing the guy whose team were absolutely destroyed by Eddie Howe's Bournemouth last weekend will be all forgotten.
240 Posted 22/11/2017 at 07:47:45
If we lose at Southampton, I won't blame Unsworth because I think the easiest thing in life is to blame someone and it very rarely achieves anything but resentment, which is no good in a team game.
I will blame this indecisive board though, because we need stability right now; it's imperative, has been since the season started, and it's still no closer to happening. I thought and hoped the board were being prudent the other week; now I think they are either fighting like mad behind the scenes, or they haven't got a fucking clue.
242 Posted 22/11/2017 at 15:13:12
243 Posted 22/11/2017 at 15:59:25
I think you are muddled. I didn't say Unsworth was taking more abuse than Koeman.
Look at your original response to my point. You may want to stop digging
244 Posted 22/11/2017 at 16:37:34
As I have said plenty of times before. The perfect embodiment of these two players, is as crafted by Benitez for the RS. It is he and Mourinho who really pioneered the 4-2-3-1. One of the two should be like Mascherano and the other should be like Alonso. Now you'll immediately think one is a defender and one is a lot more attacking, and you'd be right. But the reality is that Alonso actually plays behind Mascherano, if the team is playing well and mostly attacking.
The Mascherano is tasked with hunting the ball. His job is to chase all over the pitch trying to win the ball back. So he will actually move forwards more than the other to do this.
Because he is actively moving from position, the Alonso guy has to be a lot more static and rigid in terms of shape. His role is not to tackle. It's a fallacy that his primary function is as a tackler. Whilst he is a "defensive midfielder" his primary role is as an attacker. His job is to get straight on the ball as soon as it is won, and launch long passes to initiate quick breaks and rip teams apart. He should never be rolling a slow sideways pass to the Mascherano.
In the Watford game, we conceded immediately after the second half started. Watch the replay and you'll see that all of our central midfielders had advance and vacated the middle of the park meaning that Watford had an overload and so scored an easy goal.
In the Leicester game, we had a free kick, that Leicester quickly won possession from, Davies raced to a left-wing spot, was done by Gray, who charged up the pitch, Gueye raced to meet him, and was easily beaten and so Leicester had an overload, again because our central midfielders vacated the middle.
We might have had "defensive midfielders" in those games, but they weren't playing like it. In my opinion, in both games it was central midfielders, and they were a lot further forward with a lot more licence to attack, and to press higher up the pitch.
If Unsworth allowed them both to attack, i'd say that he committed a basic tactical error. However, I do not believe that he did. I think the Leicester incident was caused by Davies' youthful exuberance trying to win the ball and get us on the attack and trying to create a chance whilst everyone was up for a free-kick.
Against Watford, we actually had 3 on the pitch at that point. And no doubt that Unsworth would have told one of them to sit, and he'd be tearing his hair out with the three charging forwards like they did.
Our midfield has been an absolute mess, all season long. No doubt about it. The midfield is the key part of the side. These two "holding midfielders", playing well, will instantly solidify a defence, and make defenders look much better. They can also make the attack look much better by quality incisive passing.
In my opinion, we had an Alonso type player, Gareth Barry. We had a Mascherano type player, James McCarthy. And the two in tandem and with Barkley ahead and Lukaku up front, we looked world beaters and ripped teams apart in 2013-14. Things went downhill fast as McCarthy "broke" for want of a better phrase, suffering injury after injury, and becoming unreliable, losing form and quality as a result. Schneiderlin, is not an Alonso. He is something of a hybrid of the two (edit: wrong word used here it implies he can do both jobs well, he can perform the passing side at a limited level, and he can do the Mascherano role at a limited level as he is far less mobile than Gueye and when he's at speed and tackles, he usually gets booked or worse).
He's not a great tackler, and never has been. He was box to box at Southampton and moved backwards before playing well under Koeman and getting his big move. He can certainly do a job, and he's not a bad tackler by any stretch of the imagination. So his best position is to sit in, and to play the Alonso role. Of all the players on our books, only Schneiderlin, Sigurdsson, and Rooney are capable of hitting accurate passes over 40 yards.
The key word I used is capable. Of course, Schneiderlin's passing has been woeful at times this season. But he is still the only one who can pass from deep to the flanks. Davies belts it straight out of play, or hits a 40-yard pass to the touchline at 7 foot in the air, so expects Lookman to control it. Gueye seems incapable of even kicking the ball 40 yards.
The knock-on effect has been that our midfield has got slower and slower and slower. Whereas last season we would win the ball and Gueye or a centre-back would get the ball quickly to Schneiderlin and he would launch a decent long pass, it just is not happening this season. They all have their heads down, and are not getting their heads up and looking. There is no movement ahead either. And so what we see is slow passing. Not just sideways, but under-hit passes. This is the thing that infuriates me.
A sidepass can be great, if you do it Barcelona style, and zip it into feet, and you can pass left, then back to the right, and then a diagonal forward. Done at speed and you can get an entire midfield on the turn and you suddenly have a second on the opponent to be able to create a chance. We were not doing any of that against teams under Koeman. We would have the ball on the right and Baines would be free on the left, and instead of hitting the switch ball, we would hit three short passes so that by the time it comes to Baines, he's just as closed off from passing as the right back had been.
Basically, it's nothing to do with the formation. Two "holding players" are actually two central players. One should be getting it forward quicker, the other should be pressing high up the pitch, and both should be much higher up the pitch. I believe Unsworth has moved them up the pitch. I was interested to see how Schneiderlin would perform in Unsworth's team, as I believed he would not vacate the middle and would exercise more positional discipline than the others.
Unsworth went for an interesting midfield on Saturday, with Sigurdsson in there. I thought when Rooney dropped deep against Leicester and was hitting passes, we looked quite good (going forwards). Sigurdsson can also do this and has far more stamina than Rooney and covers far more ground. Last season, we were at our best, when we had a great run in spring to early summer, with a central midfield trio of Schneiderlin, Gueye and Davies. Davies seems to struggle (being kind to him here) when tasked with playing deep in a role with a lot of defensive responsibility. However, if you free him from the responsibility, he naturally works back as well as forwards and still gets stuck in. Him and either Sigurdsson or Rooney as proper central midfielders, both working forwards and backwards with Schneiderlin sitting, could work. Gueye lacks the discipline to do it.
But we need to ensure that there is pace in the rest of the side, that means two pacy wingers (Lennon, Lookman, Vlasic, or Mirallas) and a pacy striker (Niasse or Calvert-Lewin), and we need Kenny getting forwards too, and Baines were he can.
Someone said it is not possible to press with a slow team. Yes it is. You don't need to be fast to press. Man City are pressing in classic Guardiola style, closing passing lanes, not necessarily swarming the player on the ball. You can do this with intelligence and not with speed. Or by drills on the training pitch drumming it in to you.
Pressing comes from the front, Niasse sets the tone, Lennon will follow, Lookman and Vlasic need to learn. Mirallas never will. Then after the front 3, its the midfield trio (including the AMC if you're playing one). All of these players have to press as one, and there can be no strollers.
Finally, what has Unsworth showed so far that makes you think he is a coach and not a manager?
245 Posted 22/11/2017 at 16:41:33
The stats I cited back then were for Gueye, and I still consider him absolutely irreplaceable in the side. He is second in the Premier League in tackles this season and made the one that created Niasse's goal on Saturday. He has more than twice as many tackles as anybody else in the team. That's amazing. He is top class defensively. His attacking limitations are obvious, thus the need for a quality attacking mid nearby.
Schneiderlin I have addressed above and in past posts. He was superb last season, one of my favorites. He never showed up this season. Doesn't even rate a seat on the bench IMO.
Regarding novice coaches, I acknowledged not knowing about the other two from the 1980s (which you don't seem inclined to accept), but I didn't "write them off". I think the fact that there's one successful example in more than a generation means something. You don't. Fine. If Rhino stays in the job we'll find out who's right.
As for your penultimate paragraph, I'm sorry but the idea that Unsworth is under pressure from us "critics" is utterly ridiculous. We're posters he never heard of on a chat board he doesn't read. It's a common fantasy here that TW has power to impact the manager, but that's all it is, a fantasy. Booing fans holding signs at a game are pressure. Harsh press reports are pressure. This isn't.
Finally, there's no need for sarcastic exaggeration. There's no "talk" about Wagner. I mentioned him once. Nobody else has. I do think having a woefully under-talented, newly promoted side in the top half of the table is the latest example of what a good young manager he is. He might actually keep up a side whose best player is Tom Ince.
246 Posted 22/11/2017 at 16:52:04
What you wrote was:
"What a pity you Rhino critics didn't use your eyes and brains when Koeman was driving morale, confidence and cohesion into the dust."
So you're saying the Rhino critics didn't criticize Koeman.
That's what I called shite. I stand by my assessment.
247 Posted 22/11/2017 at 16:57:42
I hold a similar view to you on Schneiderlin, as evident from our many discussions. But again, he is replaceable, but we don't have the replacement on our books, and it would cost £20m+ to do so to the level he reached last season.
Oh and Mike, Ruud Gullit was late 90s. In the 80s, he was a young player.
248 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:08:52
If we do not win at Southampton, it will have more to do with the team failing to string more than two passes together and inability to recognize what each other are going to do next. As witnessed in recent games.
These are coaching and man-management problems that are still, for now, the responsibility of Unsworth. His ability to improve these things will have little to do with some fans rationally thinking other managers may be more suitable.
249 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:23:32
Any player just wants their pass forwards to have a good chance of being controlled and used to good effect instead of coming right back onto our deep-lying defence, which has to be deep-lying because the ageing Jagielka & Williams have no real pace. Failing to sign another younger centre-back compounds the transfer-window fiasco.
The other thing that concerns me is the comment of Sigurdsson very recently about newly acquired improving fitness, allied to the rumour that Koeman had the first team squad training in isolation. To me,they're visibly not competitive with most other squads in terms of basic fitness, so I hope whoever takes the job does the necessary to have them attain that basic requirement before moving on to the harder parts of accurately passing and controlling a football.
250 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:29:14
The reasons: he certainly isn't there to create. He can't shoot well, doesn't really have an eye for a through-ball, and isn't a great passer.
I am sure everyone can see he is there to break play up all over the pitch. In effect, defensive. Just because he doesn't sit doesn't mean he is not defensive.
I can see some people use Holding and Defensive in the same figure of speech but I think they all know Gana doesn't sit. That is as clear as daylight if you watch him.
The reasons he is the box-to-box midfielder is because he breaks play up and intercepts far more often than Davies and, for some crazy reason in English football, it is a crime to use a player with skill and vision in the central role, eg, Barkley.
While we concede week after week with two defensive midfielders that can't pull us out of trouble, the other end of the pitch, the critics, pundits and coaches will be convincing themselves a player like Barkley can't track runners or will take risks, ie, taking a player on (what a crime).
And again I repeat, that's while we continue with two defensive types that concede every week and can't win games.
251 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:38:28
I'd trade someone with an average to better all round game in a heartbeat, despite losing his defensive element. Everton are not a defensive side nor should they be, in most Premier League games, I would expect Everton to be on the front foot. Moreover, if Unsworth & Koeman for that matter kept playing Gana to help the defence and use him as a crutch then that's a mistake.
Taking away our ability to attack actually exposes are defence further as we don't have players handle the ball and transition. Its very noticeable our possession stats are awful this season. Again if you intend to play that way, a la Leicester then okay. But we constantly give the ball away. Gana is part of that issue to my eye.
It's interesting were the fault lines are on our team and yes there are many, but maybe if we could handle the ball better in the middle of the park our defence might not be as regularly exposed?
252 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:52:18
I know he's new to the job, but it's not only the players that he's changing every week, it's also the formations. I could be wrong, the board could really help Unsworth, by making a decision one way or another, but it's just the feeling I get, when I am looking at us right now.
253 Posted 22/11/2017 at 17:57:22
There are a couple of problems when looking at Gana's tackling stats. One being, they are inflated because of the team's complete inability to hold the ball and string passes together, of which he most certainly is among the chief offenders. When we have games against Crystal f'ing Palace and they have nearly 70% of possession, tackles are inflated.
The second thing is, it is far more important for a player in that position to be intercepting passes or forcing bad passes through pressure than tackles. Tackles in his position often are more indicative of poor positioning and having to make up for it with a tackle. Case in point, Matic. He isn't running around diving into tackles. He's on his feet and getting into all the right positions, forcing the ball to go where he wants.
Oddly enough, this is where Schneiderlin is actually better than Gana. As poor as he has been this season, his positioning is far better. His distribution has been crap, but he reads the game better. Far too often Gana is reacting as opposed to dictating. A central midfielder is supposed to impose themselves on the opposition. Gana does not do this.
254 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:06:07
Watford away last season was so evident of his size it was horrible. He looked like a boy chasing men. He will get tackles in on anyone but never dominate.
255 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:16:17
He can sit and be disciplined. We've seen him do that. But it limits his best qualities and makes him use more of his worst.
Paul, he's not too small. He's bigger than Makelele who did dominate at a World Cup and in a Champions League final. Gueye is 174 cm. Makelele is 168cm. And the most dominant midfielder of the last 2.5 seasons is Kante. He's also 168cm. And Gueye is heavier than them both.
256 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:34:41
There is one person and one person only responsible for the problems and failures this season, Ronald Koeman.
We had a decent side at the end (not the very end mind, when they were on the beach) of last season.
That team was:
Holgate Williams Jagielka Baines
Gueye Davies Schneiderlin
Barkley Lukaku Mirallas
This was the side that was winning games at the end of last season. It is a 4-3-3 where Davies was slightly ahead of the other 2, but was not a number 10. Barkley and Mirallas were able to drift in from wide and take up the 10 position.
Koeman has played a similar team at his previous clubs. He likes a hard-working midfield and a front 3. The front 3 for him always boil down to Big, Skilful and Fast. Pelle, Tadic and Mane. Lukaku, Barkley and Mirallas.
Koeman should have realised he had a decent team, that something was working and should have built on it. He should have told Barkley whatever he wanted to hear and kissed his arse and done whatever it took to get the new contract signed. Then he should have put all efforts into signing a big striker to be Pelle. Forget Lukaku, he was irreplaceable, he should look at replicating what he had with Pelle, and that was much easier to do. Then he should have identified someone a hell of a lot faster (and better) than Mirallas.
Pickford was fine, get a good keeper in and make us better. Keane also, it's a like for like improvement. Even Klaassen, at a stretch, he could do Davies' job. But he did not sign the big man, he did not get a fast man, and whilst Sigurdsson and Rooney are very skilful, neither is Tadic or Barkley. If Barkley could not be appeased and had to leave, why not just sign bloody Tadic? He'd be available for less than Sigurdsson cost, and who better to play the Tadic role?
Instead he pissed about with the entire formation, the system, the defensive line, the tempo, the directness of passing, he basically changed everything. He had delusions that he was a super manager who could do anything. If he had played a different system at Saints and was trying to transition into it, then fair enough, but by the end of the season, he had had us playing like he had Saints and even Valencia playing. In a very dutch 4-3-3. So why change it?
There's no way anyone would be able to force him to change it. Not Kenwright trying to sentimentally foist Rooney onto him and telling he had to play, not Welsh in signing players he did not want. Koeman would have just played 4-3-3 and picked round pegs in round holes. Instead he changed everything. This tells you, it must have been his decision. Again. Why the hell did he do it?
There's only one man to blame. He ruined this season, and he walks away collecting the best part of the £18m salary he was to be paid for 3 years work, having done bad work and for only half the contract.
258 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:38:35
Had this been a new manager, it would be us all saying he's trying to find his best players and best team, and to give him time. If it was Koeman, and it was Koeman, then we'd be saying what are you doing? You signed these players to play to your plan, so why are you changing it.
Unsworth has a massive squad. We've got 28 players. We used to have less than 20 under Moyes. They're all screaming for game time. Some of them he hasn't seen before, so like a new manager he needs to players in different positions to see if they work, see Sigurdsson, and Rooney. Others he knows well have played just one position, see Davies, Kenny, Baningime.
259 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:56:13
I think Schneiderlin has been so bad this season it has overshadowed just how poor Gueye has been; there was an incident on Saturday when we were counter-attacking and I think it was 4 on 4 and Gueye totally misjudged the pass and it went straight to a Palace defender putting us on the back foot .
Gueye has without doubt qualities; however, his range of passing is very average, attacking skills and shooting is poor, and his positional play is very suspect to me. Against the so-called top six who keep the ball, his skills of harassing and chasing the ball are very much needed; however, against struggling teams such as Palace, we need a good passer and someone who will play forward looking for those gaps in their midfield/ defense (think Schneiderlin when he is on song) and for that job, Gueye is not your man.
260 Posted 22/11/2017 at 18:59:22
I live over here. I see the way things work and I have always said ToffeeWeb reflects the thoughts of Evertonia incredibly accurately.
If only 15% of them wanted Allardyce on a ToffeeWeb poll, I believe absolutely that only 10 to 20 % of the whole fan base wanted him. That's how accurately I believe this site represents the whole fan base.
Likewise with those who are criticising Unsworth knowing full well that he hasn't been able to get his players on the training ground. I've met plenty of them and (as reflected on here) most are people who defended and supported Koeman until there was no longer any point in doing so.
You doubt that? Take another look.
261 Posted 22/11/2017 at 19:03:17
I'm getting worried anyway now, but that's because of the complete inactivity that is being shown with regards to the manager's position, but that's down to Moshiri and Kenwright, who I now believe are starting to play with fire.
I believe that a manager should play a system that suits both his ideas and also his squad, whereas a coach will look to keep changing things around, because he's coaching, rather than managing. I believe that there is a massive difference between the two things, if you can understand what I'm saying, Steve?
262 Posted 22/11/2017 at 19:47:20
The best coach out there (and he's a head coach - not a manager) is Pep Guardiola. He only ever plays formations that suit his ideas, then builds a squad to it, and so does what you say a manager would do.
I fail to see why a coach (and I assume you mean head coach) would change stuff around. A coach will be someone like Martinez who has a philosophy or way of playing and coaches players to fit that system and way of playing. So why would he keep changing stuff around?
A manager who is not a coach, I assume you would mean Redknapp or Keegan, who have no idea about tactics, would keep changing things, because they do ridiculous stuff like send on another striker, just because they aren't winning. And don't realise that if you are losing, then the best way of getting a goal is putting on a midfielder and getting control of the ball.
263 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:05:20
A sweeping statement Steve. Is that the case for every occasion a team is losing?
264 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:06:30
265 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:31:50
He might be a great coach, but he also knows how to manage what he's got, to best suit what he wants, (it must be a lot easier having all the money in the world). So he's also managing, and I'm baffled over a title, and also by people who want to complicate the most simple game in the world.
266 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:32:46
Yes we sacked Koeman without a succession plan. But what should we have done, let him hang on until the international break, just to line someone else up?
It's also obvious that we tapped up Silva and Dyche, and got confirmation of interest from Big Sam. Moshiri was dreaming big and wanted a marque name and tried to lure Simeone and maybe Ancelotti or Tuchel or someone else of that ilk. We hung on as long as we could before going to the next level. But we were shocked to find the club where everything is for sale, and is used to having 3 managers in a season. Moshiri seems set on Silva, and probably resolves to get his man at the end of the season, but he needs a big win from Unsworth to give him the job until then and that's not happening. Also, Big Sam wouldn't agree an interim role either.
I think we're hanging on, waiting on results, and if they go the right way, Unsworth will get the job.
Meantime, Unsworth is desperate for it, and instead of grinding out draws and playing conservatively, he is forced to go for knockout blows, to convince the board to give him a chance long term. Had he been given an interim deal until the end of the season, I do believe we'd have seen a less gung-ho performance against Leicester, and things would have flowed from there. Instead, he's left trying to win big every game.
267 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:39:04
268 Posted 22/11/2017 at 20:39:44
269 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:01:57
270 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:07:31
271 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:14:41
My argument is that the person who has set ideas and has a set formation, will make massive changes until he gets the results or performances he expects. He knows how it should work, and so will make the change.
In contrast a Harry Redknapp (I know I keep using him, it's because he is probably the worst manager to have managed more than a handful of games) would just keep blind faith in the team, because he cannot envisage how it is meant to play in his head. And when he does change things, it's like for like.
272 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:20:23
We all have our own opinions mate, and mine was that the best Everton, have played all season, was Unsworths first match incharge at Chelsea. The second best was Haduk Split at Goodison, and both managers changed the team and the formation in there very next game?
A new team/squad needs stability, unless of course they can adapt to what their new manager/coach wants right away.
273 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:20:34
I'm not happy with all this "I talk with the chairman 3 or 4 times a day" malarkey. I am also not a fan of the old boys' club of ex-players who now have full control of the coaching side.
Looking from the outside, it looks like Kenwright is strengthening his grip on the club, rather then fading into the background. Every single new signing thanked the chairman in the summer for his efforts, so don't believe for one minute Kenwright isn't as involved as he always was.
Could all of the above be a recipe for a new era of success? I very much doubt it. The club looks to be more rudderless than ever, even with all these new additions to the board.
It was never going to be easy with a new majority shareholder, going up against a particularly stubborn old guard, who have previous for crushing any outside interference.
274 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:27:50
Kevin, I see the report in the Independent as brinkmanship. Everton putting the ball in Silva's court and making him bring Watford to the table. If he really wants to come, then I fail to see how Watford can keep him. Players get dropped when they're unsettled by a move, how can a manager not be? We didn't trust Moyes when he wanted out to United.
275 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:36:31
I believe the signings we made were acceptable to him (but Rooney mystifies me) but the recruiting failures amounts to now having an assembly-line of bullet-providers bereft of a barrel down which to fire them.
That's why we are and will remain in deep shit until we get such a centre-forward, who more or less immediately gels successfully, and that's what worries me most.
276 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:36:58
Except Steve, Unsworth is one of us, an Evertonian, and the U23s rarely play on the same day as the first team, so he will have seen all of them at least in the home games, he will know how and what they can do, so that is not a valid reason, certain players have not played since Unsworth has been in charge.
One of those excluded Vlasic, has mystified most fans. Sandro was a very welcome return to the first team, well for me anyway, and I hope there will be a couple more the longer David is in charge.
It's great that you are, like most of us, wanting Everton to get off the ropes and fight our way back up the league, we all have different ideas on how this can be done, I'd love one of us to have a foolproof plan, it's easier said than done.
277 Posted 22/11/2017 at 21:50:45
Koeman, would probably have been top of the chart during his first season at Southampton, Steve, so what do these charts really tell us?
Let's get Ronald back and get rid of Steve Walsh maybe!
278 Posted 22/11/2017 at 22:04:10
David O'Leary, is worse than Redknapp for me, Steve. Ridsdale gets the blame, but the manager must have been on some fucking ego trip, to never question what failure could bring, and Leeds United have never recovered because of it.
279 Posted 22/11/2017 at 22:24:49
Unsworth has used 4-2-3-1 mostly, and changed the width to try and get hold of the ball to change things for the better. I fail to see how you can use him adapting in the middle of games as anything other than a plus. Would you prefer he stuck to one formation and one formation only, like Martinez, and if it doesn't work, then it's the players not him.
As for David O'Leary, I've long forgotten about him. Did he use the tactic boards for resting cups of tea on and writing "inspirational words"?
280 Posted 22/11/2017 at 22:42:04
On your Koeman failure point. How can it be solely Koeman's fault when he clearly stated he would like to keep Lukaku?
The board were also willing to let Mirallas, Niasse and Barkley go on deadline day. Surely not everything was Koeman's idea?
281 Posted 22/11/2017 at 22:53:48
There's no reason for Gueye not to run midfields. Should I also mention that Gueye is taller than Peter Reid, heavier too.
I think Gueye is a good player, my problem with him is that he chases the ball too much, and lacks the discipline of Kanté. Also, when he's on the ball, he's pretty woeful. He's certainly not at the elite standard expected from a midfielder at a side that wants to be in the top 6.
I think Davies can be (almost) as effective as Gueye and has much more skills on the ball. My view is we need another passer in the middle. I thought that was Schneiderlin. But unless we perform an exorcism or something, we're going to have to adapt Sigurdsson or Rooney. The former certainly has the engine to get about the pitch. Can he learn to work in tandem with Gueye or Davies and let them do the tackling and be close enough to get on the ball quickly and launch attacks, but not so undisciplined as to leave the back door open?
282 Posted 22/11/2017 at 23:11:19
I somewhat disagree with your first paragraph... certainly our inability to hold the ball is a big reason we rank third in the league in tackles, but Gana still gets a ridiculously high proportion of them. He's got 45. Second on the team is Schneids with 22. Nobody else has more than 17. That's amazingly lopsided.
I agree that interceptions are also important, and every team needs those too, although I'm not sure they're "far more important" than tackles. We're second in the league in that category, again because as you say we surrender so much possession. I think Gana is a major contributor there too... he's third on the team in interceptions, and his ball pressure does cause others.
You are correct that dictating and positioning are not Gana's strong points, but a player who pursues relentlessly and can take the ball off a dribbler every time -- Gana's success rate is a stunning 76% -- has great value too. Niasse's goal Saturday was, I believe, the third this season triggered by a Gana tackle.
To me, a "central midfielder" who "imposes" himself on the game is either a #10 or a box-to-box. Those aren't IGG's abilities, never will be. His job is to take the ball off opponents trying to attack our backline on the dribble. He is as good at it as anyone in Europe. And it's a vital skill for this club at this time.
Finally, your contrast with Matic is apt and I agree completely, but remember that's not just a function of the player but also of the system. Mou emphasizes positioning and interceptions over tackling -- his teams always rank near the bottom in tackles -- so he coaches Matic and his side to play that way. (I managed my teams that way too, incidentally.) If someone who thinks like Mou (or you and me) about defensive tactics winds up as our manager, Gueye will be sold off quickly.
But in our current system, he's irreplaceable.
283 Posted 22/11/2017 at 23:18:47
"There's no reason for Gueye not to run midfields."
There's one. He lacks the skills. As you say, "...when he's on the ball, he's pretty woeful."
I'd love to see Davies establish himself as Gana's partner full time. Would hate to see Siggy back there... still believe he belongs farther forward at #10. And we know Davies has the box-to-box skills to support him.
284 Posted 22/11/2017 at 23:30:48
As for not seeing Sigurdsson back there, I'd rather not see a number 10 in the side. Play Sigurdsson as an 8 instead, that little bit deeper. Our quest to implement a number 10 this season has been a disaster. We were much better last year without one.
I want to see an energetic trio like we had last season, with someone sitting like Schneiderlin and the other two buzzing around him. That could be Sigurdsson, because as you pointed out, Gueye still gets the majority of the tackles and interceptions.
It could even be Barkley, but I'd rather see him on the right of a front three like last season. He's far more dangerous in and around the opposition penalty area.
285 Posted 23/11/2017 at 06:36:24
Steve Ferns, a lot of interesting stuff. Essien (177 cm apparently) at Chelsea is what I'd like to see Idrissa Gueye play like... Win the ball and lay it off as a 5-10 yard pass. We don't want him trying to find creative passes or shooting. The only other thing I noted to comment on was Koeman's 4-3-3, which made us narrow and confused up front... Let's not do that, please.
Martinez played that 4-3-3 or 4-2-1-3 as a surprise with Lukaku on the right to target Arsenal's Left Back in 2014... But the he tried to play it a few other times and it became Martinez's big trick - a bit like McClaren's bring on all the strikers ~60 minutes.
Anyway, what a massive disappointment Koeman was. Dave Abrahams (#276), see the many explanations of everyone being kept out of Koeman and the first team's way. There's a heap of speculative reasons why Unsworth hasn't played Vlasic.
286 Posted 23/11/2017 at 06:41:06
287 Posted 23/11/2017 at 08:14:11
288 Posted 23/11/2017 at 09:18:55
You think that our team needs coaching, I think the players need things simplifying. You say Unsworth has mostly used a 4-2-3-1, all's I see is a different system each game?
When you are settled, you usually do better, but when you are unsettled, then you usually do a lot worse, so if he has to use every player to find out which will ones suit his system best I wouldn't be as bothered, as I am now.
Fuck flexibility mate, because it's stability what we need most right now?
289 Posted 23/11/2017 at 09:33:41
290 Posted 23/11/2017 at 09:38:54
Interesting point. If Sigurdsson is the 8 who would be the 6 if you were picking Sundays team?
And with you not wanting a 10 in the side can you give us the starting eleven and formation you would go with on Sunday.
291 Posted 23/11/2017 at 11:42:45
You claimed (falsely) that somebody stated Unsworth gets more abuse than Koeman.
You come on all guns blazing dismissing a valid argument as "utter shite" Then when challenged about your hostility, you blatantly make up a post in order to justify it.
You may fold your arms and claim you stand by the hostile answer you gave, but anyone who reads this thread will see your invented argument is (to use your own hostile rhetoric) "utter shite"
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.