U23s beaten on penalties by Bradford City

More recently, Liverpool have had a few injury crises where they've drafted in unknown kids like Joe Gomez and Trent Alexander Arnold – who turn out to be amazing. Meanwhile we bang on about Galloway "not being given a chance" by Sunderland, West Brom, or three Everton managers. Or we talk about 23- or 24-year-olds like Garbutt, Browning and Pennington having potential when they are playing for the U23s or being crucified by Oxford fans. We talk up Charsley and Connolly when they can't get game time at crap clubs. This Hornby lad is a prime example of the Everton wishful thinking hype machine. He never scores yet people are talking about him as our first team goalscoring solution.

The team we had last night had a goalie described as "the best I have ever seen at this level" by Unsworth. A £5 million winger, two defenders with dozens of Premier League games under their belts, a couple of London "wonder kids" and "The next Dave Watson" who had to settle for a place on the bench. And yet they lost to a shite team. Meanwhile, another Liverpool loanee was scoring a worldy to dump Manchester United out of the cup.

Do you also remember the embryonic Steve Gerrard? He was playing right back to get a game and he was touted as this great defensive midfielder. Which is why he wore 4 early in his career and usually for England. He was much older than Davies is now before he started to show signs of being a world class midfielder. It’s a very difficult position to play and needs experience and mentality as much as physical and technical attributes.

Vlasic wasn't a youth product of Everton he was signed for what £10 million just over 12 months ago. So he isn't relevant. That apart, the Russian League is shite

How isn't it relevant? There are two teams in the city. Essentially we are fishing in the same pond when it comes to youth recruitment and development. At the first team level, we have the old "They spent more than us excuse." What's the story at youth level? If anything, we spend more than them with the likes of Calvert-Lewin, Lookman, Gibson, Bowler etc all signed with our "Under-23 budget". But I guess we can live in a bubble and what compare ourselves with Tranmere.

Didn't we have four kids win the “World Cup” last summer, and don't you think that our academy has definitely saved Everton, from going into administration during the Kenwright years?

And Why would we want to compare ourselves to Tranmere, Kieran, were/what is the relevance in that?

I mentioned Tranmere sarcastically because you said Liverpool wasn't relevant. As for the "World Cup" yeah the 2nd rate players won that against Venezuela while the proper Under-21s were playing in the Euros, Pickford et al.

You can argue that one player's sale -- Wayne Rooney saved us from going into administration but that's another area of the general malaise at the club e.g. Kenshite's ownership term. We produced one good player 15 years ago. Now we big-up Unsworth as some kind of faux manager, patronize a load of shite local lads who are never going to make it, all in the name of "we once produced Rooney."

The academy was actually better before we started making a song and dance about it. I just feel like now it's this myth that distracts from all our other failings and I am making the point that we shouldn't be deceived. If you want to watch U23 for the joy of the game then fair enough. But, I have zero faith that we will produce any top class players any time soon.

History suggests we can churn out a headless chicken once in a while (Hibbert, Kenny) but no quality team would play them, and our "flair" players are lightweight wastes of space (Walsh, Kissock, Dowell) etc.

The under twenties won the World Cup, not the under 21’s, but if the euro’s is bigger than the World Cup, and second rate players actually win the World Cup, then I really am amazed.

I would argue that the money we received for Jeffers, Ball, and Dunne, also kept the wolves, from Kenwright’s door, and is possibly the reason people now make a song and dance about the academy now?

Someone at Everton got there act together to sort it out, because before this Liverpool, were fielding boyhood Evertonians for fun, some of whom who were close to eventually becoming world class footballers.

You don't coach by any Kieran?

Not the kid, his dad, because although he’s not daft, he’s got to sit in the stands, and listen to some of the barm-pot shouts, that people constantly come out with, when the team isn’t winning.

Patronise a load of shite local lads who are never going to make it, all in the name of we once produced Rooney, really is going to take some beating!

Rooney was a one off. Once in a generation.

Name me the next Rooney coming through the illustrious Rhino academy?

Everton's academy is a prolific conveyor belt whichever way you look at it

- volume of professionals - tick loads down the lower leagues

- quality of graduates, how can we define this, surely getting a cap for your country would be such a barometer, well tick again, no-one has produced more England internationals from their academy than us since 2000

- now the one that really sets us apart is this: number of England internationals born within 25 miles of the stadium. All of ours are and few of the top academies can even get half. This shows the quality of the coaching, surely?

I’m not slagging the coaches, I just feel that when you watch kids train at academies, then too much emphasis is put on trying to score a goal?

Sounds mad that because football is all about scoring goals, but a Barcelona youth coach, once stopped my mate before a game and asked him, “are you English?” My mate asked him how come he was asking, and the man replied that only the English kids, warm up in the goal.

I think it shows when you watch international football, because the English never seem as comfortable playing in tight areas, especially through the midfield, but it seems like second nature, for everyone else?

Oh yes – and we're top of the league in both U18 and U23.

But our academy is shite and everyone else's (who are currently not performing to the same level) are obviously better.

ps: A quick glance at the rest of the academy teams shows a Man Utd victory, and heavy defeats for West Ham and Chelsea. So out of 4 academy teams, only 1 got a better result.

Honestly - the fans of this club have changed into serial whiners.

They weren't largely teenagers. They are mostly 20 odd and they are well compensated because they play for a Premier League club. “Seasoned” or not, the Bradford City players are obviously crap otherwise they wouldn't be playing for Bradford City! Fulham had a 15-year-old playing the other night. But Unsworth is playing Jim'll Fix It with 22- and 23-year-olds and trying to make their dreams come true

One more thing. Bradford had a kid making his debut at center-half, a teen full-back with 3 pro games to his name, a 19-year-old striker, an older striker playing out of position at right-back, and they rested three of their regular starting midfield. So yeah... "seasoned pros" and all!

They binned off the reserve leagues to try to encourage academies like they have now with younger players playing. Initially is was u21s and up to 3 overage players.

Then it was decided that the gap between u21 and first team was too big and therefore the academies were not achieving what they intended. So they raised the age limit to increase the quality.

So is playing Ty Browning really a bad thing? If there’s not a lad behind him to take his place, why not keep the quality up with a player who looked championship level and help the young players who are good enough to raise their standards.

The idea is not to produce 11 players each season but one or two. I think the best way to do that is to raise the quality of the side.

I agree with Unsworth that we should go ahead with this plan to have B teams in the football league and split league 2 into a north and south to do so.

I fully understand that this will permanently damage the English game, and so it’s the reason they have not done it.

If you take the defence out (obviously Browning and Galloway are relatively very experienced) then we have 4 teenagers in midfield and upfront. (And a 20 year old who only turned 20 last week).

Only a handful of them have had any significant loan experience.

Bradford might have played a couple of inexperienced guys, but I bet the majority of the team was very experienced in comparison.

Labelling them shit is an insult to former Evertonians such as Peter Clarke, Lundstrom etc who have forged good careers in the lower leagues playing at a standard that 99.5% of us could only dream about.

Virginia - 19
Browning - 24
Foulds - 20
Charsley - 21
Galloway - 22
Bowler - 19
Adenerin - 19
Markelo - 19
Broadhead - 20
Hornby - 19
Evans - 20 (a week ago)

Is everyone outside the Top 6 in the five best leagues in Europe shit? Should the rest pack it in?

1:10 May become a good squad player, 1:50 a first teamer, 1:5000 a Ross Barkley, 1:500,000 a Wayne Rooney but they all deserve support for pushing to become an Everton player even if the majority never will.

Vaughan, Branch, Lundstrom and plenty of others have had good careers in football, yes they never made it here but I appreciate seeing them do well.

But kids aren’t always an instant success. Young Kenny could do with more experience, maybe a loan, but he our reserve and all in all I felt since he came in he done well.

And Shane, "shit" is a relative term. I am shit compared with a conference player, he is shot compared with championship teams, they are shit compared with EPL and so on and so forth. Yes it is lovely that Lundtsram and Clarke got to play lower league football for a few years, but they could have been cut loose at 16, joined Carlisle and saved us a few quid.

1. Hornby.
2. Evans.
3. Bowler.
4. Virginia.

If the other seven are simply to raise the standard these four play to, then that increases their development. If this was all U21s only, and as soon as we ruthlessly cut players clearly never going to be champions league standard so we're only left with young kids, then the better players development is hindered by playing with worse players. It improves their development to play with and against better players. This is why they increased it from U21 to U23. So a 17-year-old can play against better players and progress enough to make the first team.

Can't you understand this?

On the point of Virginia, he's very much a first-team player. If the first team plays he's nowhere near the U23s. He only turns out if the first team are not playing. He's at every game and on the pitch before the games, warming up. It's very clear they expect a lot from him and that he's third choice.

Kieran Dowell made his Everton debut four years ago. After which, he played U23 for two years, won the title, won the U20 World Cup, went out on loan for a year, and now he can't even make the bench. So did that time playing alongside Darron Gibson, McAleny, Niasse, and his young mates actually do him any good?

Joe Williams is another one. Plays Under-23s, progresses (?), goes on loan to a rubbish Championship team beginning with B. Comes back, plays U23 again, and goes out on loan to another rubbish championship team beginning with B. There is no evidence that these players are improving.

So Steve, I get your point and the theory behind the U23s, and that would work well and good if Chelsea didn't loan out 50 players every year instead of playing them at this level. Other teams are putting their 17-year-olds out here. I also think you're being optimistic with those four players.

Bowler turns 20 in a few months. He is a winger. Most wingers break into the team at 18 and then start to lose their pace by 28 or 29. As of now he can't get a start in the U23. The goalie might be alright, the other two seem like Phil Jevons types at best.

Tony Abrahams,

Because, the only good one we have produced in the last 20 years was Rooney but I have been told in this thread that we shouldn't use him as an example. So I just looked around the local area for the nearest cluster of homegrown players I could find.

I apologize for using the term 'shit'. I concede it was not really appropriate and more borne of frustration I feel seeing some many of us – myself included – for a long time, having this false hope for the U23s when I feel they're playing the system to win games as opposed to make better players.

The only thing that frustrates me is that when kids get a chance, people keep saying they are shite, instead of giving them a chance to really prove themselves.

Remember Coleman? Done well at Blackpool, came back, done okay, not much more to begin with, and all’s I kept hearing was he’s not good enough for us. Kid gets a bit of “EXPERIENCE” and turns out to be very good.

I know we want instant success, but you don’t win the World Cup in any sport, unless you have got talent, so although I can understand your frustration Kieran, these kids are learning their trade in a very unforgiving league, and the last thing they need is unforgiving supporters tearing the back out of them, every time it doesn’t go to plan.

There has to be quality local lads capable of eventually playing top level football surely? By top level I mean Premier League standard.

Do these academies actually work? Or would Everton be better off having a few feeder clubs to unearth a few gems?

I believe that coaching either enhances or kills a player's talent. Game time is a very different thing to the day-to-day training of a player and, if we have to send players out why not send players to say forwards to Brazil, midfielders to Spain, defenders to Italy and goalkeepers stay here.

Phillip@49, when a kid reaches a certain age, then competitive football is so much more important than coaching. Get stuck in and learn, or is it sink or swim?

Davie@50, best coached player I’ve seen play for Everton, over the last 20 years has got to be Pienaar. Only my opinion, but I bet you it had something to do with the coaching at Ajax?

I know, what about Klaassen, some might say, but his ability was fine, he just couldn’t adapt to the speed and physicality that the EPL brings?