Everton vs Newcastle postponed due to Covid spread

Game off – just announced.

It's becoming a farce.

Couple of Covid cases and a host of injuries, if you call games off for that every week then you'll never finish the season.

Stop the daily Covid testing NOW, it's fundamentally flawed, and frankly it's just giving managers an easy excuse for a cop-out.

It's all part of the agenda to get the winter break, well basically we've had one this season, no game since December 16th.

Around 16 matches postponed now. How long before they cancel the season?

Who said football would ruin our Christmas?

Well, always wondered what the winter break would feel like? Can't see the fixture list getting back to normal until late January.

This is 2 Winters with Covid outbreaks. Likely to be like this for a few years yet. Makes next years World Cup look a bit of a disaster in the making!

On the plus side, gives time for a few injuries to heal in the squad. If we do sign the Ukrainian lad, it will give him time to get though quarantine before we get any matches played.

This looked like a nap, after their game finished last night, and their two best players crocked and out for long periods.

The Premier League need to confirm squad playing requirements, as the Covid call is legitimate if it's genuine.

At this rate, it's going to be a hefty fixture congestion in the Premier League till the end of the season.

Interesting to see if the Brighton game takes place.

Happy New Year everybody. No game until sometime in January. Still we can follow England in Australia!!!

This season will not be finished in May, let's face it. It's become a farce and an easy cop-out for managers.

It's funny how no games were being cancelled due to Covid in the first two weeks of December yet the festive season brings a raft of cancellations?

Basically the cry-arse managers don't want to play at Christmas anymore and soon the FA will be asking the likes of Klopp and Pep to arrange the fixtures for all 20 clubs.

I doubt we'll see much disruption beyond this season, Honestly, it feels like the last hurrah of lockdowns and restrictions given Omicron's risk profile.

Hospitalisations are increasing due to the "vertical wall" of case increases rather than the illness' severity and the consensus among medical professionals (in part based on data from South Africa) is that there will be a short, sharp spike and then it'll drop all the way back, paving the way for Covid to be endemic – annoying to many, troublesome to some, deadly to a small number who would ordinarily be at risk from severe flu, etc, but not enough to continue the disruption of daily life.

That's my hope, anyway. Regardless, at some point we're going to have to learn to live with it.

As Newcastle have led to it being called off, I assume all our players, although unable to play tonight, would have been raring to go on Thursday.

To call it a lottery is giving gambling a bad name.

Injury problems!!!

We've had half a team out for most of the season, they should be told to get a team together and get on with it.

Covid I get but not injury problems.

If the FA are gonna play it this way then they may as well just halt the season now until the end of January or early February so at least it's a level playing field.

It would mean the season not ending until the end of June which wouldn't be ideal given that farcical World Cup in December but, while they keep calling off random games here and there, it's hardly gonna be fair in the long run is it if some teams have six games advantage over others.

Well said, Lyndon. Some serious bed wetters amongst Premier League managers, including Eddie Howe. He will keep crying Covid until the end of the January transfer window.

This is more about their two main goal threats being out…dodgy Coalyokels.

This could impact the effectiveness of the next transfer window, as the impact of Covid on actual and potential deals will impact, and potentially any players involved in such transfers who are not Covid compliant, in terms of their jabs, -Covid certification.

The 5 sub plan would always benefit the teams with the biggest and best squads, and would create unfair advantage at this time of the season, if brought back in.

Hopefully we will have some of our injured back and a few additions by the time we play again.

At least we can have a decent go at the f a cup tie, where in recent times, we have looked goosed after the festive fixtures.

Will end up playing two games in certain weeks, but will certainly have a bigger squad to handle the games.

All in all, not the worst case scenario.

I agree the 5 subs benefitting the bigger squads at the top, most of the time we have named 2 goalies on the bench, bad enough time wasting with 3 subs.

Hopefully we're doing the work on the training ground and improving.
Benitez will have no excuses when we eventually return to playing.

I hate that twat Eddie Howe. I hope he never becomes Everton boss. Even worse set of gnashers than Brenda.

He had 7 on his bench on Tuesday night. Less 3 injured Leaves 14 outfield players plus any U23s that have played this season available for selection.

This is more about them only having 2 days rest before playing us and 2 of their main goalthreats now out for a decent amount of time. CUNTS!

They should be able to announce who it is who has the "fresh" COVID cases in order to hold up to scrutiny.

Agree Steven. As I said on the Premier league thread, if Callum Wilson and Maximim hadn’t got injured last night, no way would Howe have wanted this game called off. Newcastle will still be shite when the game is finally played, irrespective of who they buy in January. No decent player will want to go there, just bang average ones looking for some extra dosh.

We would have been happy to send an understrength team to Burnley on Boxing Day, would we? Would we really? I certainly wouldn't, particularly if we had lost an important game against a team that's below us in the table.

Strangely the teams at the top save United and Tottenham have all played 19 out of the 20 games scheduled. It's in the bottom half where the greatest disruption has occurred, and will likely have a great impact on who stays up and who doesn't. By the time the games are rescheduled, all the teams will have an opportunity to strengthen their squads, perhaps in the case of Newcastle, they will benefit more than most in the lower reaches of the division from the postponements.

Cancellations of football matches are relatively rare in the modern game, but it is just a fact of life, and everybody will have to get on with it, much as they did in the olden days. I don't have a problem with the reasons given for cancelling the matches and would rather see teams largely made up of their regular players than each side being thrown together due to circumstances beyond their control.

I understand the concern. But we've now had 2 games
I've bought tickets for at the time of year I can attend with my son cancelled. If I was a cynical man I would think Eddie was using the same tactics as Rafa over Burnley. I'm triple jabbed, my son is double jabbed (aged 17). Unless I want to lie through my teeth we cannot attend the rearranged fixtures if they're midweek. I think my pissed offness is reasonable. My family have done everything asked of them during the pandemic. No piss takes, masks worn etc.. And now all
me and Alex wanted, in the midst of a piss poor season is shot to pieces.

Don't give me all this crap about cancelling games. Squads have a minimum 26 players. If you can get 11 to start and 5 subs, then get on with it.

Roy @ 20
I have every sympathy for fans like yourself, who can't attend many matches and use the holiday games as a treat to share with family.

I hope you do manage to attend a game with your son Alex in the future. I would in your position, explain to the club your particular situation, and perhaps they may be generous enough to swap your Newcastle tickets for a suitable weekend fixture in 2022.

Barry @22. Thanks mate. Still a bit raw at the minute. Probably because our first post covid game was Watford. Been trying desperately to get it out of our systems since. I will be doing exactly what you suggested.

Roy, can understand your frustration. Like the majority of the country, you, me and whatever the percentage is, have had the two jabs and then the booster, have worn masks when told too, yet you see the likes of Phil Foden and Grealish attending nightclubs after a recent man city victory, with this being the reason why neither have been picked to start recently. Obviously I cant prove it, but I bet neither of them have had one jab, let alone two and the booster. We hear of many premier league players not having jabs. They are not immune to this virus, so why the fuck don't they get jabbed? The simple answer to this is to fine any player who doesn't get jabbed. They would soon be down to their local drop in centre for their jabs.

The ignoring of all the safety protocols by beligerent or ignorant people is what is keeping the pandemic going no matter what country you are in especially the U.S.

Another lockout in sports is inevitable despite the vaccinations, thanks to these morons.

Work out how much these un jabbed players earn pro rata per game.

Fine them that amount if they miss a game if positive.

Rob@24. You can still get the virus even if you have the jab.

Newcastle game from last night on MOTD now. That line up of theirs probably the strongest they can put out. It's purely down to the fact they got injuries to Wilson, Maximin and possibly Shelvey and Schar they wanted the game called off. Play your kids like we had too at Chelsea. At least it will give them the feeling of first team football and should stand them in good stead for championship football next season.

Ok Paul, what's the solution? Every time a new variant comes around, the same thing is going too occur. Just because three or four of your squad have the virus shouldn't mean a game is cancelled. The whole league is going to go up the wall. Burnley have four games in hand on some, and there's always the possibility of more games being cancelled for them, us and everyone else. They could end up playing three games a week in the last couple of months of the season. Clubs are very willing to play kids, or fringe players in the cups, so do it in the league.

Roy, my sympathies also to you and your boy... as well as to traveling fans who have the games called off at the last minute.

Here in the US it's bowl season, the big payoffs for college football teams and their fans. Five bowls have been cancelled so far, including tonight's Holiday Bowl in San Diego just hours before kickoff. Many thousands of North Carolina State fans had flown 3000 miles and spent several days in very expensive hotels, only to find out over lunch today that the 5pm game was off because the UCLA team got swept by the virus. Another game was cancelled in Hawaii after all the visitors arrived.

But it's not just sports. The worst story I've heard was about a Delta flight from Seattle to Shanghai last week. Planeload of mostly Chinese returning home after many months of waiting for visa and virus restrictions to be lifted. Some paid $9000 airfare. While the flight was in the air, Shanghai Pudong Airport changed its cleaning/screening procedures for arriving flights. The Delta crew got the instructions and realized they and their plane couldn't pass the procedures. And so a little more than halfway across the Pacific, they turned the plane around and went back to Seattle.

Life with Covid.

We have to look at it as it is. A rest for the players. More time for them all to work together and understand what the managers instructions are.

Grow as a team, on and off the pitch. Bring in new signings, injured players extra time to recover,continue to integrate the reserves, sort out contracts etc.

We may have missed out on playing a weakened Newcastle but that's certainly not a given we could get 3 points with our own concerns.

I was looking forward to watching some youngsters given the opportunity but if there good enough that time will come.

Happy holidays and a great blue new year to all!

Rob you said why don't players just get jabbed. Even if they did they could still catch it.

Rob #28, if they were resigned to Championship footy next season, yeah... but obviously they're not, and they're gonna try every trick they can think of to stay up. Given what Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman does to people who piss him off, can you blame them?

Paul, they won't become seriously ill if they've been jabbed. It's going to come to a stage when clubs have to play regardless, otherwise football, and every other sport is doomed. I played many times with the "common cold". Ok, not a killer by any stretch of the imagination, but I got through it. Flu has been around for generations, and we now have a jab to prevent illness. I know a player can't possibly play with flu, but games haven't been postponed because one or two of a squad have it. We have to learn to adapt, and not cry off if one or two now get covid.

Now then Mike. I didn't say they were resigned to championship football next season. I don't think even Norwich are just yet!! I just meant give their kids a taste of first team football which, in my opinion, and I think yours as well, will help them when they are relegated this season, and are playing championship football.

Yeah, but Rob, you were a keeper. You didn't have to RUN with a cold.

Let's just pack up go home and hide under the duvet.

Tom #25. Live & let live mate. People's opinions differ, that's human nature & if you look beyond the 6 O'clock news for your information, you'll see why. Not that you'd necessarily change your views & neither would I expect you to, just perhaps understand why we 'morons' think the way we do.

My 9 y/o nephews Christmas present was going up from London for the Burnley game. He somehow wrangled a tour of an empty Goodison at least.

On the player front, Pickfords wife had been posting anti vax stuff on Instagram. Much like Delph earlier in the season. Given all the loss of life and aggro for fans you’d think they keep quiet about this stuff.

We had to play at Chelsea with a weakened side with kids, so should Newcastle! The game should have gone ahead with a strong possibility of three much-needed points for us. Predictable.

Tom I do not get the ignorant people ignoring the protocol comment you made.

After the first jab we were told after a second jab, it will be the way out and we will just have to learn to live with it, then a further booster jab has come along, with no doubt a fourth jab around July next year.

If the jab is as good as they said, what are the vaccinated worried about, they are protected, people tripple jabbed are still getting it so people are just as likely to catch it from a fully vaxed person.

Other people have the right to chose whether they have it or not, all the vulnerable have had at least two of the vaccines, but just because others, who may have a genuine reason they cannot be vaccinated is an insult to call them ignorant.

So look at it another way, anyone who has not been vaccinated should not be able to mix with people, yet we are happy to send unvaxed children into school.

I have had the double Vaccine, I had no choice in the job I do, but what others decide to do, should be their own personal choice.

We are nearly halfway through the football season, every home game has been a sell out, young and old have mixed for well over 4 Months, yet I have not heard one poster say I caught COVID at Goodison, I am not saying it has not happened, but with just short of 40,000 fans attending, most of us on here would or should have caught it attending the game, if that was the case.

Sooner or later, we are going to have to learn to live with it, but respect other people who may have different views than yourself.

This is getting ridiculous now! When exactly are we going to play these three games?! It's not like free midweek slots when there isn't European football, cup football or pointless internationals are thick on the ground is it?!

This crap has got to stop, it really does. I agree with Jim Bennings, stop the daily testing for a fricking cold or, if you must test, then stop cancelling games and just isolate the players who have it whilst picking from youth teams etc to supplement those that don't!

This is worse than last season and the resumption of the delayed season when there weren't even vaccines FFS - it's pathetic!

I'm fully expecting the Brighton game to fall also, no doubt on Saturday we will find out that Graham Potter wasn't able to attend his usual barbers or something so they'll request a cancellation.

As I say, it's becoming farcical and the whole situation is magnified out of complete proportion due the the era we live in, social media, everything is "amazing" or something else extravagant.

Well said Brian #41.

I am double jabbed and got Covid last week even though the government "experts" stated that vaccinations would eradicate Covid. (A claim I knew was bullshit.)

And I think I caught it from a vaccinated teenager.

Lyndon.

The Chief Medical office in the UK, before Xmas, said Covid would run for another 18 months. This Covid seems to be following the same tranjectory of the 1918 -1920 Spainish Flu, even with vaccinations. Which in fact lasted 4 years, people only feeling safe in 1922.

Having said that, as you say once the coming months are over, there will be alot of Living with Covid going on. I find it remarkable how many people are still not vaccinated, who inevitably end up in intensive care or the Preintensive care ward.

As for Everton, trying to be optimist, I see factors working in Rafas favour, as long as he can keep training going. This current situation breaks up the usual pattern of dependency on Finch Farm.

Players have longer to recover, new transfers increase competition, young players get more training time with the first team, the backlog of matches changes the normal complexion of the second half of the season and the early resistance before Xmas is a spent force.

Anyway there was nothing else to do only to train and build teamwork at Everton, which is a bonus, with the lot we have got. As long as Bill did not organised a in house Panto and got Moshiri to appear as Santa in Blue( a role he was born for), assisted by Denise with blue ballons.

Actually if that was the case I would not be surprised. To be a Evertonian is to be a optimist.

Agree with Jim and also Lyndons comments. Very convenient for Eddie Howe whilst we play Chelsea away down to the bare bones.
On another note there is a strong rumour that we could be bringing Ross back. Please NO he has gone backwards these last 4 years is injury prone and doesn't work anything like hard enough when he haven't got the ball.

The comments at 38, 41 & 42 really have made me feel so much better as lately I have sometimes thought there was only myself who felt like this.

Preach brothers preach and let’s get on with life.

Live and let live - is right.

Pre vaccine thousands of people were dying with Covid, now it’s hundreds. Of those that are getting continuing to get seriously unwell there is a high proportion of unvaccinated. In that context I don’t see the big deal in getting a vaccine or a vaccine booster. If it wasn’t for the vaccine we’d be in lockdown, so, the freedom we have at present is thanks to that and the people who got vaccinated.

Just to make us all feel despondent did you all notice that two of our rejects scored goals yesterday Lookman (a cracker) and Vlasic. Not good enough for us apparently !

Mark # 48, unfortunately logic and reason only resonate with people who are logical and reasonable. The rest just respond to fear, hate and empty promises. Don't stop trying though.

Do Clubs crying off, including us, have to show the PL proof of covid infected players or do they just take the Clubs word for it?
I would hope they have to prove it
If no proof then the Club willing to play given the 3 points and a 3-0 score

Jay # 47, totally agree with you. I’m sometimes afraid to write something for fear of being lambasted to death, saying how wrong I am in what I say. Of course, what I say is only an opinion, but like you, I agree with the post numbers you quote, including Jim # 43. We have to live with this virus, we simply have too, we have no other choice. In this country, flu kills upto 25K every year, (see link), yet not once do I recall any lockdown or sporting events being cancelled because of it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1676118/

I think I may recall in the not too distant past of a flu outbreak at one or two clubs, but these players were simply sent home and told to take a couple of aspirin and a Lemsip. Games were not postponed because of it.

The reason all these games are being postponed is not because of covid, it’s because of injuries. We keep hearing of covid cases within clubs, but how many? It’s obviously not enough alone to get a game postponed, so injuries are now being wheeled out to add to the amount of players unavailable, and I include Everton in this, as we cited covid and injuries in our request for the Burnley game to be postponed. If a club report three, four or even five positive covid cases, then send them home to isolate. If all the remaining players are tested negative then fine, play your game(s). All clubs have a squad big enough to be able to cope.

Newcastle wanted the game postponed because of injuries, not covid. On Monday night they apparently lost Callum Wilson and Saint-Maximin to long term injury, with Shelvey and Schar also picking up knocks, and would probably have missed the game tomorrow. As I’ve said recently, we had to play kids at Chelsea, and let’s be fair, we all expected a hammering, but they done themselves and the club proud to grind out an improbable draw. Why can’t Newcastle, Leeds and anyone else do the same, the answer is simple…..MONEY! Those clubs down the bottom want games postponed because they cannot play their strongest team, they want the best possible chance of surviving in the premier league and the financial rewards that go with it, and they are now using covid in spite of it, not because of it, to get games postponed.

Really not sure why any Everton fan would be desperate for us to keep on playing and not take a break given our injury list and recent form. For once we're getting results against London clubs, we got lucky at Stamford Bridge and had a last gasp winner against Arsenal and 'enjoyed' a bore draw with Spurs, but the last 7 games around this have all been defeats.

Indeed we've taken just 5 points from a possible 30 in the last 10 (compared to 5 wins, 3 draws and only 1 defeat in the first 9 games in regular time - take out the 2 cup games and we still secured 16 points from a possible 21 at the start of the season with a full squad).

I'd happily have Brighton game called off too (although not expecting that), would give us a further few weeks to get the likes of DCL, Mina, Doucoure, Gray and Townsend back to full fitness and also maybe bring in a few more bodies so we can get back to a full line up!

As for the anti-vax brigade... I seriously don't have the words. It's a small imposition with vanishingly small risk that is our only obvious clear way to navigate this illness without further mass loss of life amongst the most vulnerable in our society. Presumably these people feel the same way about typhoid, small pox, polio, tetanus and diphtheria inoculations?

Well I guess I am the exception in that I have really enjoyed Christmas by not having Everton Fuck it up with piss poor results, putting all Blues on a downer.
I never ever thought I would say this but having experienced no football over Christmas I am now 100% behind a winter break around Christmas. Now obviously that will probably mean cutting the league to 18, but I have no problem with that.

After reading all the posts, I am in agreement that Newcastle's request to call the game off is purely based on their two best players being unavailable through injury, and not due to Covid/Omicron related reasons.

I would have thought that some sort of Medical Certification would have had to accompany such a request, and not just a verbal one. Maybe it is, but I fail to understand after having watched Newcastle basically outplay Manure and desperately unlucky not to win, can make the claim because of the loss of Saint Maximin and Calum Wilson.

Like many have already mentioned, a squad of 25 players would need to have 7 or 8 infected players at least, to have grounds to request a cancellation, not coupled with unfortunate injuries.

Brian, I’m with you. For the first time in years I’ve been able to enjoy Christmas without fretting over our next game and, as Chris said, this break gives our walking wounded more time to recover.

Kieran@39, I think there has become another issue for a lot of sensible people during this pandemic mate, and just because Pickford’s wife, posted something on social media, then surely that doesn’t make her an anti-vaxer?

I’m not an anti-vaxer, but actually agreed with the placard that she put up, which came from a protest March in London, last week, because of the draconian measures the Home Secretary is trying to push through.

COVID is real, but some of the laws getting pushed through far to easily, are absolutely UNREAL, like giving the police the powers to shut down peaceful protests, if they think they might become disruptive.

Ever travelled away to Europe with Everton? Police from certain countries have got carte-Blanche to “provoke” because of the shameful record of English fans, and I’ve witnessed this first hand a couple of times.

Then look at how the Germans policed those lovely couple of days in Nuremberg. They knew that the Evertonians, had come to have fun, watch their team and party, and everyone had a great time, because the German police allowed us to be ourselves.

Considering how outraged Benitez was when the powers that be initially refused to cancel the Burnley game, we can't really criticise Howe now. I know we were depleted at Chelsea, but it showed the younger players should have been given a run earlier, instead of Rondon and Iwobi.
I have sympathy for anyone who has Covid after vaccinations, but players who refuse to be vaccinated, shouldn't be allowed play, So much for being roll models.

Christy, I think you mean "role" model. Salah is a "roll" model!

Hi Christy, can you please explain this comment,
“ but players who refuse to be vaccinated, shouldn't be allowed play”?
I hadn’t realised we were now living in a fascist dictatorship were the government tells you what experimental medical products you can and can’t put in your body.

Tony, I agree with you about the laws being pushed through, but that's nothing much to do with vaccinations, and everything to do with our current scum government.

I genuinely don't understand how people can keep swallowing the crap the Tories put out (e.g. myriad Brexit lies that they STILL attempt to spin, offering billions of related dodgy deals for border services or Covid-related procurement to their mates, or preferred treatment on building deals to avoid taxes, the Windrush scandal, the handling of Grenfell, proven bullying by idiots like Patel, trade deals that lead to privatisation of services like NHS by stealth or sell out our home grown industry, repeated attempts to breaking international law, and initial bungling of Covid to name but a few and that's before you dive into Cameron's corruption).

Ironically, whilst most can apparently turn a blind eye to pissing away tens of billions of public money, breaking international law, blatantly lying to us or squeezing the NHS, the public do seem to draw the line at whether they had a Xmas party or got someone to pay for decorating their house...

Still if this is what it takes to get them out, then so be it!

A top post Chris, which explains why the people in power continue to get away with so much imo, mate.

Pickford’s wife put up a picture of a placard, with words along the lines, that you don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist, to think that something isn’t quite right, but the average person probably isn’t even aware of even half the things you have just posted Chris, because they are to busy arguing over vaccinations, and lockdowns, and this more serious stuff is going right over their heads, whilst some incredible laws are being passed in parliament?

Good post that Chris, do not forget the working classes of Thatchers reign, where Coal miners, steel workers, dockers, and many more, all got shafted, the rich got richer through the Gas, Electric, bt, rail network, and many more that all got privatised.

So we have a debate on the site regarding the hot topic of covid related postponements and low and behold someone, Chris #61, endorsed by Tony #62 turns it into a political debate.
Weird.

I have met some brilliant people on here, Dave, Danny, Neil, Steve, Jim, Derek and Bill G, love the bones off them all, if I thought for one minute, even though I have been double jabbed, that I posed a risk of endangering them with covid, I would keep well away from Goodison.

But we have met up on a number of occasions and none of us have woke up the following morning, feeling Ill, apart from our performances.

We learned to live with it and we got through the season as normal.

Now anyone with a sniffle, gets a test done, it is not rocket science, the more people test then the more positive results will show.

We have already been informed that this is a milder case, but all the same, more and more people are getting tested.

If I feel a sniffle, I stay in, I keep my distance from anyone else.

We have to learn to live with it, but rest assured come around July, they will come up with a different variant and then ask people to have a further booster and then another around November.

Football needs to try and get back some normality, at the moment too many teams are using the covid as a means to postpone games, while the bigger picture shows it is more down to injuries.

The real conspiracy is the Conservative party. Unless you are earning £1mill+ they are fucking you over. Don’t look up

Bernard@64, should have been here Xmas eve, we went from football to greatest films, it is what makes ToffeeWeb, one minute we are discussing football, then all random stuff pops up, although I have not seen one yet of favourite cake.

Mark #48 - Nails it for me.

Mike, I think the real conspiracy is actually believing either of the two ruling parties in any two party democracy (most Anglo Saxon models) are any different.
“The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies... is a foolish idea. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can throw the rascals out at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy. Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies.”
Carroll Quigley

It’s ToffeeWeb, Bernard, someone will start talking about cricket, next, although I personally wouldn’t buy anything out of that shop, myself!

Those jam scones, with loads of fresh cream running through them out of marks & Speners, have always been my favourites Brian, washed down with a nice strong cup of Rosy Lee!

Rob #52

"We have to live with this virus, we simply have too, we have no other choice. In this country, flu kills up to 25k every year (see link), yet not once do I recall any lockdown or sporting events being cancelled because of it."

"I'm sometimes afraid to write something for fear of being lambasted to death, saying how wrong I am in what I say."

I said exactly the same thing as you last year and I was lambasted to death. But never be afraid of telling the truth, especially when you know it's the truth.

Vanilla slice for me Tony, closely followed by a jam cream horn, buggers have shrunk in size.

Saving lives, doing one's best to stamp out of spread of the virus and stop the ICU's filling up must be everyone's priority right now. Entertainment and sports have to take a back seat. My actions and inactions are relevant - this is not a private issue. Yes, we need to take people's worries and anxiety seriously and listen to people with differing views and concerns, rather than polarise them - but surely saving lives and staying healthy (including mental health) must be a priority. Stay negative, think positive folks. And keep building the bridges. COYB

Lyndon Lloyd @ 8

"Hospitalisations are increasing due to the "vertical wall" of case increases rather than the illness' severity and the consensus among medical professionals (in part based on data from South Africa) is that there will be a short, sharp spike and then it'll drop all the way back, paving the way for Covid to be endemic – "

With so many people catching this variant there's a real danger there could yet be another mutant variant born out of this one? Covid was on it's way to becoming endemic, but Omicron proved it can all chance quickly.

Mark@48, so it is the people who are vaccinated that people should be thankful to.

Can I just ask one question for you.

How many of these 11 African Countries, that have now been taken off the Red list, and allowed to travel to Britain, have had both Vaccinations.

Nick #69,

Regarding your Caroll Quigley quote, someone who knows more than me about US politics told me that George Washington wanted the US to have only one political party with an elected president every 4 years. (Was Washington the original "red under the bed"?) But it was the fueding between Hamilton and Jefferson when Washington resigned that created the two-party state.

I'm sure some of our US community can correct me if that's wrong.

Tom #74,

"With so many people catching this variant, there's a real danger there could yet be another mutant variant born out of this one? Covid was on its way to becoming endemic, but Omicron proved it can all change quickly."

What I read is that this Omnicron variant is the doorway to it becoming endemic. And yes, there will still be more variants of it, just like there are more variants of 'flu, and always will be.

Brian@67: My favourite is Christmas fruit cake, laced with brandy. My wife makes a really good one, laced with 5-star Metaxa.

Eric @ 71, of course we have to live with it because it's here for the long haul but there are too many people who take living with as a reason not to vaccinated or to stop testing which is completely insane.

When you see comments like Nick Page @ 60 you know that it's going to be a long time before it gets close to manageable and we better start hoping Darwinism wins the day.

Sounds nice that Stan, can almost taste it.

Compliment returned Brian! I agree, we need to live with this now. We are going to have to as it's not going away.

I wanted to steer away from politics but will mention the British media that I am increasingly becoming detached from. They report their agenda, not the news. They almost seem to be running the country. Forget political parties or colours, I'd much rather see a politician do the right thing rather than bow to media pressure, regardless of whether it's popular this week or not. True leaders don't worry about being popular. They do what they consider right at the time but also thinking of the longer-term impacts of the decision. Second order of effects, not just what the BBC will think tomorrow.

Back to football. The more this rolls on, the more it is becoming apparent to me that clubs are manipulating the current situation to delay matches to get around normal expected injuries. I'm not saying there are not genuine Covid cases, but it smells of buying time until they get to the transfer window. By the time they have to play those re-arranged postponed matches, new reinforcements will be in place and injured players will be back.

Yes, I'm getting cynical and suspicious in my old age.

Brian, my second favourite is a cake made in Grimsby (where my wife is from), called Russian Slab Cake, nicknamed Trainwrecker. It comes from a local cake shop, where at the end of the day they take unsold cake of different types, and mix them together with brandy essence, compressing the mixture to produce a dense cake that is mouth watering and would wreck a train if a piece were left on the line. I suppose it could be made even better by using actual brandy instead of brandy essence.

Very little point debating politics online - extreme socialists and extreme tories simply aren’t going to change views cos a random online poster made a point.

Neither will extreme brexiteers, extreme eu rejoiners, extreme anti-vaxxers or extreme pro-vaxxers. In all likelihood their brains won’t even process/contemplate the point, since that would cause an issue with the highly embedded psychological view. I’m no psychologist (A level 20 years ago), but it’s basic cognitive theory, and Freudianism too.

Alls it causes is bad feeling between groups of people who’d otherwise get on. Then it causes sly insults (like calling the other side less evolved eh Andrew)…..it’s just pointless, and should ideally be kept off the platform. There’s plenty of other places to go have that debate. Twitter for one.

Talking about Barkley or Rafa is different. Sure you’ll get entrenched views at times, but a run of good form or bad will swing 90% of opinions. For me, currently;

- postponements saved Rafa, he’s going to get January and time to rejudge is in Feb / march (let’s hope not too late)

- Barkley another Bolasie with a much more tainted history. There’s no fair tale here…..but, if there’s no money and he’s the only one available again, then so be it. We need numbers.

Andrew @78 by this, “ When you see comments like Nick Page @ 60 you know that it's going to be a long time before it gets close to manageable and we better start hoping Darwinism wins the day.” are you implying that you hope all people die who haven’t had the vaccine? It’s a bit of a childish comment to make really isn’t it given that would mean my wife (vaccinated) would have to bring up my two children alone and my mother (vaccinated) would be without a son all because someone has a different opinion to you.

Fucking hell Stan (81). Could you send me one of them cakes? I'll make it worth your while!

By the sound of that cake Stan, could be the reason when Rondon visited Grimsby, it took him 8 weeks to work it off.

Sounds a beast of a cake that.

Dave, I’d get you one, but I live up in Stonehaven in Scotland now, haven’t been to Grimsby for ages. I can’t remember the name of the cake shop. Might be available online.

In Aberdeenshire, they do nice cake, but they also do absolutely incredible pies. I used to like Hollands pies in Liverpool, but the ones in Aberdeenshire take pies to a whole new level!

Eric @ 44 and 71.

This: "experts" stated that vaccinations would eradicate Covid. (A claim I knew was BS.)'

And this: 'I said exactly the same thing as you last year [about CV-19 infections and mortality being comparable to annual influenza numbers] and WAS lambasted to death. But never be afraid of telling the truth, especially when you know its the truth.'

Putting aside your self-promotion as a great Oracle, a seer of the 'truth' that others are blind too, your 'claims' are factually wrong.

I haven't seen any 'experts' claim vaccines will eradicate CV-19. The vaccines are designed to diminish the impact of catching the virus, but perhaps more importantly to reduce the 'R' number - the rate that Covid infected individuals can transmit it to others.

As a quick guide, measles is highly contagious in communities without immunity. It's R number is 15, meaning if one person gets measles they can spread it to 15 others.

CV-19 by contrast if allowed to run rampant in an non-immunised community would have an R number of 3. Based on that number it is very easy to see how, with rapid exponential growth, an entire poppulation would very quickly all be CV-19 positive. It was what you and others advocated last year, Eric. Herd immunity.

You were not 'lambasted' as you claimed. You were challenged with legitimate contrary views which have proven correct.

You trumpeted the likes of Sunetra Gupta for her stance on herd immunity, a signatory to the Great Barrington Declaration, which also attempted to legitimize and promote herd immunity.

As one who seemingly takes solace in conspiracy theories about CV-19 Eric, you didn't take kindly to having it pointed out to you that the Great Barrington Declaration is sponsored by the American Institute for Economic Research (AIER).

AIER claims to be a 'libertarian movement'. However, it is essentially a climate-denialist, free market think tank that profits from investments in Big Oil and Big Tobacco. AIER is also funded by the Charles Koch Foundation, a right-wing billionaire industrialist known for promoting climate change denial and opposing business regulations on business. The Koch foundation is linked to many denialist movements and individuals actively opposed to public health measures intended to curb the spread of CV-19.

You, and others, continue to peddle the myth that CV-19 infections and mortality rates are no worse than the annual flu numbers. They aren't.

This moving graphic lists world and individual country mortality rates by disease. It starts from mid-March 2020 and runs right up to today. There is a drop-down menu above the graphic which defaults to a World view, but you can select any country in the world to see how impacted it was by CV-19 deaths throughout this entire pandemic.

Selected Deaths v Covid-19

It is startling in some cases to see how the usual killers - coronary, stroke, lung disease, etc - were rapidly overhauled by CV-19 deaths at the height of the pandemic.

It is indisputable that the number of CV-19 deaths and cases have - until the recent onslaught of the new variant Omicron - started to fall drastically in every country with a high take-up rate of the CV-19 vaccines.

Even now, whilst Omicron cases are hitting record daily cases in many countries, the fatalities are nowhere near the frightening numbers of pre-vaccine days.

Lyndon @ 8 described the current situation very neatly when he wrote:

'Hospitalisations are increasing due to the "vertical wall" of case increases rather than the illness' severity and the consensus among medical professionals (in part based on data from South Africa) is that there will be a short, sharp spike and then it'll drop all the way back, paving the way for Covid to be endemic.'

As to who is still dying from this plague, this piece on the US situation gives good insight on that demographic:

The New Faces of Covid Deaths

In summary:

* It is the non-immunized
* Whereas previously the bulk of deaths was in urban areas, now they are from rural areas where vaccine take-up is lower
* Earlier in the pandemic, 83% of fatalities were 75+. Now, the bulk is from the 55-75-years-old
* Political allegiance is having an impact. Republican-governed states hostile to CV-19 preventive initiatives have seen rises in fatalities
* Similarly, whereas blacks and Asians were the most vulnerable ethnic groups early in the pandemic, their fatality numbers have shrunk, whilst white 'vaccine refusnik' percentage numbers have doubled from around 15% in the first wave to 32% now

People need to remember just how deadly CV-19 was in its pre-vaccine days. How overrun health services were. How ill-prepared governments were for this pandemic, having allowed emergency stocks in anticipation of a pandemic to run down, or progressively seen budgets for the same severely cut. How restrictive things were.

The vaccines have worked. Whilst things are not yet fully back to normal, there are no more extreme lockdowns curtailing all movement and activity.

For those questioning the validity of multiple vaccinations, the world faced a pandemic of a new exeedingly virulent virus. Right from the off it was declared, with reasoning, why double vaccination would be effective. In the same way people are offered an annual influenza jab, so it is with the CV-19 booster.

The annual flu jab, of course, is never the same as the previous year. It too gets improved on to better combat new variants.

Expect to be offered an annual CV-19 jab as we now accept the annual flu jab.

Nick@60 A fascist dictatorship? This is nothing to do with politics, It’s the top medical professors and doctors advising people to get the vaccine, in case you didn’t know it saves lives, unlike the uneducated on Google etc, making up utter nonsense. It’s the unvaccinated passing it on to someone with underlying conditions, that’s the bigger picture.

There is the answer to Covid.

"Russian slab cake".

It might not defeat the virus but it sure as hell will make the current situation more enjoyable especially with a slab of Brandy and no Everton results to depress us.

Amen to "Russiab slab cake".

Thanks Stan. I'm searching for the recipe now.

Jay#87.
Jay, I'd decided to steer clear of any Covid related discussions/threads/posts since the early days when I saw what transpired on here.
However, for you post at 87, I'm going to make an exception and applaud you.
*clapping*

Christy, people (footballers) can still catch and pass on Covid post vaccination with a similar viral load. I don’t doubt the vaccine has saved lives, that’s not my point. But you can’t create a medical apartheid and blame people who haven’t been vaccinated as if they are some sort of great unwashed with echoes of history. So banning people from activities, in this case footballers does not stop positive tests because the vaccine is a therapeutic not a prevention (of infection) and is therefore completely pointless unless there is another agenda which I’m not aware of.

Masterful post Jay @ 87.

Fortunately, governments around the world are following scientific advice on their response to the spread of Omicron (alas not Bolsonaro in Brazil). The result will be lives saved and less hospitalisations than we suffered in 2020. Against that, disruption to sporting calendars is entirely irrelevant.

Vaccine refuseniks will suffer more illnesses and deaths, but that is their choice. In Singapore, they cannot enter public buildings, sport venues, bars and restaurants, return to work or travel. If they catch COVID-19, they must pay for their hospital treatment. Now that is clarity of purpose and logic from a government that gathers near universal support from the population. 825 people have died from COVID in Singapore since the onset of the pandemic.

And if any of the population starting spouting off about 'fascist dictatorships', they would be regarded as being unhinged.

Jay Wood 87, extremely good information aided by factual moving graphics. As you will see there are always a number of head the balls who don't believe any of this.

Yes it was a very good post Brian, except for the bit when it said it’s the disease of the unvaccinated, which it clearly isn’t, (I’m aware it’s the unvaccinated who are mostly dying) and this is what is causing most, if not all of the current arguments on covid, unfortunately.

The downside of having a great democracy (like ours) is that it encourages the rise of the nob head!

Jay@87: Excellent post!

Jay@89: Yes, if you didn’t have a laugh and a bit of nice cake you’d bloody well cry with this pandemic, and with Everton. Regarding recipes, oddly enough there are ‘recipes’ for dealing with major hazards (and SARS-COV-2 is a major hazard), and the UK happens to be a global leader in dealing with major hazards. This is why it’s very ironic, and also tragic, that the UK government failed badly at the start of 2020 (which Jay@87 referred to) to deal with the virus in terms of avoidance and prevention measures to delay escalation (‘flattening the curve’) as opposed to trying to control and mitigate the situation once things had escalated. I mention this in more detail @286 of the thread to do with the Leicester game postponement.

Do the vaccines prevent transmission to a meaningful and measurable extent? What are the data on that?

Isn't that the key question?

Tony#94.
Tony, while I acknowledge your post at number 94 I cannot discuss anything contained in it.
I'm now back to only football, cake, or your arl' fella's Desperdo debt, which has an R value of 20 now!!!!

Tony, you should open the two links that Jay posted as they are definitive.

A quote from his link 'The New Faces of Covid Deaths:

"Unvaccinated individuals represented the overwhelming majority in the most recent deaths. Vaccines were not yet available when the U.S. recorded its first 100,000 Covid deaths.'

Excellent post, Jay Wood. Researched, factual and reasonable.

Strike whilst the iron is hot Brian, I heard he had £10 on Lookman to score the first goal last night, which might just increase that R value that little bit more, considering who he scored against, mate!

Tony, I saw his post on that mate. 20-1 odds I believe. Made up for him, and Lookie, and the rest of the world who seem, according to the bbc match thread, hate them as much as we do.

Thanks Steve @99. I assume that is globally true.

Jay @ 87 - I think I love you.

I’m tired of people recalling Daily Mail headlines and presenting them as “wot the experts said.”

I’m tired of COVID getting politicised. Have the Government done a good job so far? I’ve no idea because there’s no previous basis for comparison, however I do know that no other Government has managed to eradicate COVID yet.

Brian (98),

I've had a lot of bad luck since the lockdown started, Brian, and unfortunately I've had to declare myself bankrupt, my solicitors are sorting everything out and will be in touch with you regarding the four bottles of Desperado I owe you… it was four Brian wasn't it?

Anyway, Brian there's a long queue of debtors but they will get to you. Thanks for broadcasting that debt over worldwide known ToffeeWeb with millions of readers!!

Steve #95,

I can fully understand that view. However, I'd hesitate to leap to such a judgement, not knowing the Prime Minister personally - nor, indeed, the Leader of the Opposition!

:-)

Tony 97,

A little late to the party but I believe the way to describe it is that the vaccine reduces the likelihood of transmission and reduces the viral load under such conditions of transmission. I've stopped doing the citations so I'll leave that to some others who have Nexus or some other resource or website to offer. The growing body of understanding has been out there and, while the mutations do present new challenges, the overall basics remain true as they were in earlier phases of the pandemic.

And fuck, Jay, I was going to add in a comment but I think I may have to sneak in a beer while I read that.

Yeah Jay, nice work. I obviously would have thrown in a few expletives but your style is impeccable.

May I add just one thing though: Q-fucking-E-fucking-D already!

Dave, I tried to set up a GoFundMe for you, but my extensive criminal record triggered their screens and stopped it. So we've fired up both ovens and we're gonna have a bake sale. Watch your mail for the proceeds. That's what friends are for.

Thanks Dale @108. The more precision the better in these very important matters.

Jay #87, it's not true everywhere that "there are no more extreme lockdowns curtailing all movement and activity"... the Chinese cities of Xi'an and Yan'an have been locked down tight for a week to fight COVID outbreaks. 15 million people who can't even go out and get food.

Having seen the initial carnage of the virus in Wuhan (when my wife was there), the Chinese are naturally overcautious. They shut down the entire port of Ningbo -- one of the busiest in the world -- for one case. One.

But they have another problem -- their vaccines. The Chinese state-developed CoronaVac and Sinopharm vaccines, which have been given widely across China and to over a billion people in Indonesia, Brazil and a hundred other countries, aren't as effective as Pfizer and Moderna. Their immunity wanes quickly and older people see limited benefit. Some countries have stopped using them altogether.

So it's not just about getting the population vaxxed... but what they get vaxxed with, and when.

Four bottles? Four cases more like.

So much technology now, sports channels, internet, everything Everton online, but I tell you what, nothing beat reading the Football Echo on a Saturday evening. Even better sat on the toilet and having a damn good read, out of the way from distractions.

The coercion regarding this vaccine rollout that the main stream media and our not so trusted politicians are spouting out is disgusting.

People have fell for it big time mainly through to the fear, now roll up for vaccine 💉 No 4 soon!

Why is the Covid virus not able to be killed with drugs?

My favourite cake is apple turnover.

Jay #87,

4600 words, and we can add another 1000 for the spaces (according to Microsoft); if I was wearing a hat I would certainly doff it in your direction; expect it was some kind of record, even for ToffeeWeb.

Interesting stuff but it does ask a lot of your readership, unless of course it was for Eric's eyes only.

115 Bobby - The answer to your question is yes it can, do some research (not Google) on Dr Pierre Kory and find some answers.

Also Dr Peter McCullough.

A good point of reference is Prof Sucharit Bhakadi a world leading microbiologist will give you a professional viewpoint from a scientist that knows about viruses 🦠

For those looking for an end to all this, there is some pathbreaking work being done by US Army researchers I think going up the chain of the virus family and developing a Sarbecovirus vaccine to treat all the SARS related variations.

Being Everton fans, you should have known there was always and will always be hope. Keep calm and carry on or something like that.

Mike @ 111.

I acknowledge your China examples of extreme lockdowns, but China, its population, its politics, its culture, are not atypical of the rest of the world.

Home to nearly 20% of the total world population, allowing the virus a free run in China represents an extremely high risk.

As you are personally well aware, the Chinese authorities were draconian in their total lockdowns from the start. They have continued to apply such iron fist lockdowns periodically at any perceived threat throughout the entire history of the pandemic.

They are able to do so because they have the absolute power to see such lockdowns observed, as well as a compliant population who 'know better' than to stick their heads up above the parapets.

As for the Chinese developed vaccines, I can personally speak of CoronaVac as my first two jabs used it.

It's very interesting that, in comparison to other vaccines, it is claimed that CoronaVac has a very low efficacy rate. As low as 50%, in some studies.

However, very few - if any - competing vaccines made such a profound test case study as was conducted with CoronaVac here in Brazil. Indeed, unprecedented on a world scale.

This report details it:

Wiping Out Covid-19 With CoronaVac

The smallish interior town of Serrana in Sao Paulo state (population 45,000) was used in the study. Nearly every citizen 18-years-old and older - 27,000 people - were double vaxed with CoronaVac in a 3-month period from February to April 2021.

The result? An 80% drop in symptomatic cases. A 95% reduction in CV-19 deaths.

Furthermore and very interesting, results showed that the vaccination protected not only the adults that received the two doses of the immunization, but also children and teenagers under 18 years old who were not vaccinated.

By contrast, in the same time period that Serrana effectively became 'a CV-19 free oasis', 15 other nearby towns had significant rises in both cases and mortalities (CV-19 was RAMPANT throughout Brazil at this time. Up to 4,000 daily deaths at its peak).

CoronaVac may well be less effective than other vaccines. It is not totally forlorn, as this study clearly shows.

Mike (109) thanks and God bless you, beggars can’t be chooses !!

Brian (112),

Four bottles? Four cases more like.

Give a man from Birkenhead an inch and he'll take a bleedin' marathon.

Jay #120,

I should have known you'd have firsthand knowledge of CoronaVac, since it was used so widely in Brazil. Great info.

I'd be interested to know how Serrana is faring now, nine months after the study and seven months after that article was published.

Jay #87 - excellent.

And as Dale #108 says, using his impeccable Latin, "Q fucking E fucking D already".

Jay (@87),

What an excellent post. Not only what you've written but for including that timeline "graph?" anyway that moving count of deaths caused by Covid 19. Thanks for putting all that together.

In The Guardian the other day, around 95% (I think that was the figure but definitely in the 90s) of people in intensive care beds were unvaccinated.

Mike @ 123.

Even before you asked, having replied to you I was also curious to know how things are in Serrana now, so I did some digging.

The highly respected Butantan Institute which conducted the CoronaVac study offered this update last month, November 2021:

Serrana Study November 2021 Update

It's in Portuguese, so let me give you a brief abstract in English.

* There was a significant growth in the number of Covid-19 cases in Serrana in September to November 2021 – mild symptomatic cases (1,200) and the number of hospitalizations.

* However, proportionally, there was no a sharp increase in CV-19 deaths (9 in 3 months). This is considered a clear indicator – 6 months on from the blanket double vaccination with CoronaVac – that the vaccination works and continues to protect the population.

* Butantan consider these numbers for CoronaVac in Serrana are best compared not to other cities in Brazil, but with the United Kingdom (AstraZeneca) and Israel (Pfizer) which like Serrana in April, had already immunized most of their populations, but with other vaccines.

* Like Serrana, these countries also saw an increase in the number of mild cases and low mortality numbers.

* Butantan considers this shows the increase in cases has nothing to do with the immunizing agent itself, as different vaccines are returning similar efficacy results.

* The report adds: 'The main objective of immunization is to reduce the severity of the disease, hospitalizations and mortality. That is exactly what is happening in Serrana. The mild cases, with no hospitalization and no mortality, are helping to avoid overloading the health service.'

* The months September to November covered the period when the Delta variant was predominant (a variant the original vaccines were not primed for). In Serrana, Delta represented more than 90% of all positive tests.

* Finally, because a high proportion of the population was double vaccinated, it also helps to protect the unvaccinated. However, this effect is lost over time because the disease can be transmitted again. Thus the need for boosters – just like the annual flu vaccination.

CoronaVac appears to be doing okay in comparison to its 'peers', Mike.

Jay#87 I probably shouldn't have mentioned Covid and football together, but I have to applaud your fabulous article, your insight and knowledge superb.

Jay Wood @ 120

"The smallish interior town of Serrana in Sao Paulo state ....."

I'm fully vaccinated, two astrazeneca and a pfizer, but it hasn't gone unnoticed how quickly approval for these vaccines have been rushed through?

It usually takes years for vaccines to become publicly available after exhaustive review processes. Desperate goverments turning a blind eye to due procedure, I wonder if there will be a price to pay later?

To be clear, I have had the vaccines because my mother is shielding and she really cannot afford to catch it and it does feel like the right thing to do, but for me the above doubts exists.

Jay @126: From the information you've given in those excellent posts, it appears that the vaccines are indeed reducing risk of severe illness and deaths very significantly, perhaps towards levels comparable with levels of risk from hazards such as flu.

Before the vaccines, in the UK there were about 140,000 deaths with COVID, and with a 90% protection effectiveness from the vaccines it might be expected that this figure would be reduced by a factor 10, to around 14,000, comparable with the range of flu deaths we see each year.

If that is the case, it would appear that reasonable measures would be appropriate to further control the risk, that are not too disruptive to society, as opposed to any ongoing emergency measures such as lockdowns, provided the vaccine effectiveness is maintained. That would then depend on an appropriate level of vaccination take-up. In this sense, the sooner take-up is maximised, the sooner we can get back to some semblance of normality. Unless I'm missing something here?

Bobby@116: They are great. I used to buy one from the County Bakeshop in The Strand (Norris Green) at lunchtime when I was at Ellergreen High School, circa 1970.

Another great thing, not a cake, was a Vienna loaf from that bakery, cut in half, hollowed-out, then stuffed with chips from the chippy on the other side of The Strand. Lovely!

Jay #126, great followup, good to know.

Tom #128, despite that common misconception, the vaccines weren't so rapidly approved because of government desperation. They were approved because advanced technology had enabled speedier development of the vaccines than had ever been possible before.

The technology is called mRNA, and the principle has been studied for decades and applied to other drug protocols, like cancer treatments, starting around 2015. So the concept was already proven.

Pharma companies like Moderna and BioNTech already knew that mRNA would likely work to create safe and effective vaccines. COVID gave them the reason to start the process in January 2020. By late spring, they knew it had worked. By midsummer, they were conducting large-scale studies. By late fall, they had the results. And there was no reason to delay approval.

Same process, accelerated by technology. It will never again be true that "It usually takes years for vaccines to become publicly available after exhaustive review processes."

Jay (numerous posts),

All valid useful information about a pandemic that is such a major factor in today's world. The majority of your information is factual and describes in detail all the procedures to help an infected World get back to something normal.

Nick Page (far too many posts),

Most of yours are self-serving and typical of the "I am so wronged by a society who wants me to do what makes sense". I have to presume you are one of those who doesn't have a clue about what is the appropriate action when millions of people are sick and far too many have died.

We have vaccines and they are working. They would be working even better if the likes of yourself stopped portraying yourselves as oppressed and downtrodden. You are not a hero – just a sad pathetic soul who doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

On a broader scale, I would much prefer to get back to discussing Everton and Football.

131 Mike Gaynes - the truth is that not one of the so called vaccines are approved other than, in USA under ‘emergency use only' and in Europe under ‘Conditional' use, these are still under trial until March 2023.

Thus meaning everyone that has agreed to taking one, two, three or more jabs has agreed to be in this trial. Are you sure that you are not aware this? Please fact-check me on this! This is fact that everyone should be aware about.

To all those in doubt about the safety of the so-called vaccines, please research Dr Robert Malone who actually invented mRNA technology, who states clearly it is not safe and the program should be halted immediately. Others above state that this technology is safe – on what basis?

Please wake up!

All I am saying in the above comments is because I care about humanity and all children's children.

Please do some research yourselves; I have left you several names – and avoid Google as they evil corrupt cunts.

One more name for you to research: Carlo Maria Viganò and his videos!

Again, I state anyone to fact-check a name I provided and I will answer to them.

We don't trust Boris, politicians – and Kier Starmer let Jimmy Saville go in 2009 saying that there wasn't enough evidence – fact-check this also.

Now let's defeat these and get back to our football.

Words of wisdom from Peter Griffiths. It is all about money! It is all about transferring wealth from the poor to the rich in my opinion and so nothing new, just another way of doing it that is all.

Peter #133, you are wrong. The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is fully FDA approved. The Moderna vaccine will be shortly. (Not that it will make the slightest difference to your views.)

You are wrong again that people who get vaccinated are automatic participants in a trial. This is false. Nobody is involuntarily or unknowingly enrolled in a trial.

You wanted to be fact-checked? Consider it done. You're 0-for-2.

I will preface making you 0-for-3 by pointing out that the only two people on Earth who think Robert Malone invented mRNA technology are Robert Malone and his wife. No other person on the planet has EVER supported that claim. As a grad student in the 1980s, Malone co-authored two seminal DNA/RNA studies. He then dropped out of school and has been a part of no further research since.

And so here's your third strike: Malone has never declared mRNA technology "unsafe" or called for the immediate halt of its use. He has criticized mass vaccination and complained that data is being hidden about adverse reactions, and he has quack-promoted ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, fluvoxamine and Vitamin D for COVID. But he has never flat-out said that mRNA (his own "invention"??) is harmful.

Three swings. Three misses. Please wake up!

Ah, Peter, never mind. Your post #134 says it all.

Rest well.

Carlo Maria Viganò?

The Italian Cardinal who believes Covid-19 doesn't exist?

That vaccinations are 'Satanic actions against God'?

Who subscribes to the belief that the World Economic Forum and China is behind the Great Reset, which the 'fraudulent Covid-19 pandemic' is part of the great deception being inflicted on us all?

Yep! I'm convinced.

Where do I sign up?

ps: Mike, you saved me the time on writing up about Robert Malone. Thanks.

136 - Mike Gaynes, thanks for opportunity:

Point 1; on 23 August 2021 the FDA approved the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to be marketed as ‘Comirnaty'. FYI – This is a total con as it's a different product than the one available under the Emergency Use Authorization.

Just to add that, to date, this has never marketed; if you think it had, please advise accordingly? Als,o this doesn't meet the FDA approval process in advising the ingredients in the specified timeframe; please advise on the ingredient details if know different?

To my knowledge, no-one has been given informed consent – the products and true list of side effects or potential death. Impossible as these have to be determined after several years – or should we just guess?

Is it really 0-2 or are some of us researching data and decisions as we should?

I will state again, Dr Malone ‘invented' the mRNA technology and has categorically stated that the so-called vaccines are not safe, as much as I've got a whole in my arse. Can I ask people to research his videos on “Rumble”.

Dr Robert Malone is not what you called the quack you so call falsely accuse of accusations.

Dear Mike, if you want an argument on ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine or many other products, I am more than happy to continue?

I know you've been on ToffeeWeb for many years, as I have, quiet albeit. But I cannot stand bullshit!

Jay, on Viganò, don't forget the thing about the graphene in the vaccines, the Internet of Things and the 2.4 GHz pulsed microwaves. And he doesn't believe the Pope is the Pope.

That old boy's choo-choo has clearly gone waaaaayyy off the tracks.

138 - Jay Wood- yes the same Archbishop Carlo Vigano that spoke out about pedos within the Catholic Church, again ask people (not Mike) to research this themselves.

Your theory is to call somebody out with no substance whatever. You won't get away with that from me. All ask for anyone to research names and statements out for themselves and make an informed decision.

Your previous articles earlier stated have no facts other than mainstream media.

COYB

140 - yawn, you lot can't argue because you have no facts and are blasting out a narrative, a boy's club maybe!

All I am asking is people to make their own mind up, please take sometime to research some or all of below, none have agenda or funded to make a corrupt view in my humble opinion:

Dr Robert Malone
Dr Pierre Kory
Dr Mike Yeadon
Prof Sucharit Bhakdi
Dr Tess Lawrie
Dr David Martin

Instead of this informed BS!

Happy to be proved wrong.

COYB

Peter.

Happy for others to read and compare our respective posts in this thread and reach their own conclusions.

Thank you, Jay, that is all that asking for, please review yourself.

ps: Don't use Google as they are corrupt as they come.

There's a post that says 'Someone will be talking about cricket soon...'. Wouldn't want to disappoint you, so here goes.

I used to have a recurring nightmare about the 5 goals that Watford scored against us recently. Now I have a recurrung nightmare which just repeats the words: '4 overs, 6 for 6'!

"Happy to be proved wrong."

I am glad to have made you happy.

Not being funny but I'm not comfortable with anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists (Peter Griffiths, for instance), being allowed to peddle nonsensical but dangerous views on this site.

I appreciate the views have been challenged yet they still remain in view. Any editorial views on this?

Gary, this is a free forum. I've called it a virtual pub. You can't shut people down based on their opinions any more than you can kick 'em out of the neighborhood pub (assuming they're law-abiding). Michael and Lyndon, who operate this site without pay, have their hands sufficiently full just managing the madness and ejecting the occasional abusive poster -- they couldn't be the thought police.

This forum must remain open to anyone... including wack jobs, space aliens, Northwest Yanks, the occasional Latvian contributor, and even people who think Duncan Ferguson should be our manager.

Besides, some of these arguments are the best free entertainment available -- and no masks necessary to participate.

Agent Rafa delighted after Crystal Palace defeat is admittedly off topic but may be worth a sour chuckle to those of us with deep misgivings about this week's manager.

Maybe Moshiri needs to address it too in the context of his imminent (6 years too late) review of what the fuck the "football" department in our club is all about.

Mike Gaynes

Thing is, Mike, it's not open to all – it's only open to what Kenrick or Lloyd decide to allow.

I've sent quite a few things in that never got posted on here… and yes, there might be a few punctuation marks missing or whatever other reason they come up with but, believe me, it's only what they see fit!

Be interesting what they make of this post or if they allow it?

Peter @45,

I've spoken to one of our local, practicing consultants in respiratory medicine about this – according to them, by encouraging people not to get vaccinated, you are promoting a course of action that puts more people at risk of serious harm or death.

Just to add, while I know it has to be censored to a point, my opinion is that sometimes they can be too critical.

There are rules in every house, Terry. When people who come into my house break my rules, I escort them to the door.

This is their house. They built it. They operate it, on their own time. They set the rules. People violating the minimum standards of civility and comprehensibility may be shown to the door. They are free to visit other Everton forums.

Am I correct in guessing you didn't adhere to the rules?

Two biggest risk factors for Covid are age and vaccination status.

Quite simply, your risk of death from Covid doubles for every six years of your life. Vaccines mitigate that risk enormously - by perhaps as much as ninety per cent. However the compounding risk factor of age means that past a certain point in your life, Covid remains extremely dangerous indeed.

This is why I fear Lyndons desire to see us "living with it" may be further away than he feels.

In addition, the flu vaccine works entirely differently from the present Covid vaccines on the market. Influenza vaccines confer lifetime immunity against that particular strain of influenza. Influenza mutates incredibly rapidly, which is why you may well get a flu shot and then end up ill from a subtly different strain in that flu season anyway.
Citing influenza vaccinations in relation to covid is irrelevant for that reason. No covid vaccine presently available is believed to confer lifetime immunity against any strain of the virus.

Omicron (and Delta) represent mutations of covid with incredibly increased risk of transmission. A future variant that remains just as transmissible but with more severe health outcomes certainly is a nightmare possibility, but it's a very real one at the same time.

The ignorance surrounding this disease and the appalling communication from our leaders are some of the main issues I feel. In my view, it's the lack of straightforward communication - and quite often absolutely contradictory information - being given by authorities worldwide that has emboldened the "anti-vaxxers". Quite a few anti-vaxxers cite contradictory information they've found as "proof" the Government is lying to them and therefore the vaccine cannot be trusted.

Hanlon's razor holds that you should never attribute to malice what can otherwise be explained by simple stupidity. Those who are against the Covid vaccine might do well to consider that simple maxim when examining their own position.

Wow, it seems some on here have been eating some special cake… 😂

Jay #87,

At the time before vaccines, there were a lot of experts claiming that Covid could be eradicated, just like smallpox and polio, and there still are if you make a simple Google search. These eradication claims were only tempered much later to a watered-down "vaccines will limit the effects of the disease, and reduce hospitalisation".

"You were not 'lambasted' as you claimed. You were challenged with legitimate contrary views which have proven correct."

No Jay, I posted that in a winter 'flu season a couple of years previously there had been 50,000 Excess Winter Deaths but we had never had a lockdown and when "challenged" to prove it, provided the link to the ONC website statistics confirming the figure (47,000+ actually). Something which you took exception to and lambasted me for being conceited. Well if being correct is being conceited, I guess I'm guilty.

"You trumpeted the likes of Sunetra Gupta for her stance on herd immunity, a signatory to the Great Barrington Declaration, which also attempted to legitimize and promote herd immunity."

Sorry, never heard of her or the Great Barrington Declaration. You're confusing me with someone else.

Peter Griffiths, I haven't read all your discourse with others on this thread but I'm only aware that Robert Malone said that mRNA delivery of vaccines is harmful to "young adults and children" not to all recipients.

No, not intentionally as far as I know – just a few missed full stops and maybe a few punctuation marks? But once you've missed them, it seems to stay with you, lol.

Eric #157, may I suggest you do a Google search? I'm quite sure you won't find claims from "a lot of experts" claiming the virus could be eradicated, even from a year ago.

This Nature Magazine article from back then certainly indicates otherwise:

The coronavirus is here to stay — here’s what that means

"It's a beautiful dream but most scientists think it's improbable. In January [2021], Nature asked more than 100 immunologists, infectious-disease researchers and virologists working on the coronavirus whether it could be eradicated. Almost 90% of respondents think that the coronavirus will become endemic — meaning that it will continue to circulate in pockets of the global population for years to come (see 'Endemic future')."

That survey was taken just as the vaccines were being widely released. One year on, after another Covid-19 wave and a Delta wave and an Omicron wave, I doubt that one in a thousand experts believe Covid can be wiped out like smallpox. If you can find even one such quote, I'd be interested to read it.

Terry, I haven't noticed them being too strict on that. Just use your auto-correct and slip in some periods, and you'll be fine.

Here you go Mike.

We should not dismiss the possibility of eradicating COVID-19: comparisons with smallpox and polio

And may I suggest you all do your own Google searches?

Mike #159,

I did do a Google search and found previous and current articles on how Covid would be eradicated, just as smallpox and polio before.

The one Derek posted at #161 is just one of many.

And remember, pre-vaccination, they were being hailed as the panacea of which Lilly The Pink herself would be proud.

ps: I'm glad to see in your link that "most scientists" agree with me.

Nick # 146…..just a slight correction…
4 overs 7 runs 6 wickets, but yeah, still a nightmare.

Bobby # 156, Fruit cake by the sounds of things! 😁😁😁

Having read the first few posts, I'm astounded at the bias. It was only a few days ago that Everton applied and were refused cancellation v Burnley for injuries and Covid. Now Eddie Howe is being vilified for same.

These cancellations are: (1) due to many players being unvaccinated, and (2) poor adhesion to guidelines. They also are totally biased toward “Big clubs with big squads”.

Clubs with big squads can continue to field teams without comprising quality (many call it squad rotation) so no disadvantage? While clubs like Burnley and Everton, now 3 or 4 games behind, will be forced to play up to 5 games in maybe 10 days toward end of season with much smaller squads.

Season should be paused for 2 or 3 weeks until Umicron reach peak and then restart. The Premier League should even consider a "No vac, No play" policy. That will help contain the spread.

On a positive note, we should then have all our key players back from injury, and hopefully add a few key players. I'm dreaming we get 2 full-backs, centre-half, dynamic midfielder cum playmaker, and centre-forward. No more wingers.

To me it is simply a matter of risk assessment and statistics. There is a risk with vaccines as with any treatment but it is tiny – orders of magnitude less than the risks associated with the virus itself. So why would anyone choose the greater risk?

Roger@165:

Good question. A vaccine is a measure for reducing risk. In my experience, whenever you talk about measures to protect people, to reduce risk, there are counter-arguments that the measures are not necessary or that there's some other motive for them apart from protecting people. This is especially the case with major hazards.

Often, with major hazards, some ‘duty holders' (those with the duty of care) argue that a safety measure is unnecessary, usually because they don't want to spend the money on it. Thankfully, we have regulations and regulators who can check otherwise and require the duty holder to put the measure in place. Duty holders will often employ very clever people to argue that the measure is unnecessary, and the regulator will employ very clever people who represent the interests of the public, to examine that argument closely and reject it if they consider it invalid.

There's an old saying: All through the ages, very clever men have constructed arguments to justify the decisions already taken by very powerful men. Sounds modern, but it's from Aristotle, circa 350 BC. People never change!

Jay #87

Interesting post thanks.

I see that you cite funding links between the Great Barrington Declaration, AIER and the Charles Koch Institute.

Now those links may indeed be well founded, those bodies have vested interests...

But so do those pushing the pandemic fear agenda! And they are no better.

For just one example, there are documented financial links between Imperial College, repeated authors of hopelessly fatalistic, pessimistic Covid modelling that has given rise to excessive restrictions, (1) The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (huge investments in mRNA vaccine technology) and (2) The Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, which is frantically pushing vaccine passports, just as Blair used to push national ID cards when he was in power.

The right wing doesn't have a monopoly on using money and influence to promote interests or agendas...

Mark @167:

You are correct about the Covid modelling. In the UK, a major problem with the advice from SAGE to COBR, particularly early in the pandemic, was a lack of independent formal scrutiny of the SAGE outputs, including the mathematical modelling, by people independent of the organisations who do the modelling, for example safety regulators representing the interests of the public.

I raised a concern about this with the Science and Technology Select Committee of MPs in April 2020, and that committee recently published their report. In it, they recognise the importance of such a formal independent challenge, and recommend it for any ongoing technical advice to the government.

Of course, time has elapsed, people have died, and independent assessment won't bring them back. But the government needs to learn, and quickly, in order to better handle future epidemics.

Stan #168,

Quite right. It has astounded me that 2 years of worst-case scenario modelling not coming to pass needed to happen, with all the attendant destructive effects of lockdowns and other NPIs, before the Cabinet finally worked out, or had it worked out for them by JP Morgan, The Spectator etc, that worst-case scenarios are not the same as actual outcomes!

Have you seen the recent exchange on Twitter between Graham Medley of SAGE and LSHTM and Fraser Nelson, editor of the Spectator, on Covid modelling? Took me a long time to heft my jaw off the floor after I read that!!

Well done for raising the issue with STSC anyway.

I think the tide is turning... If the Gov can just hold its nerve through January, that should be the end of Covid restrictions once and for all hopefully.

Mark @170:

No, I didn't see that exchange… but, to be honest, I tend not to watch that kind of stuff. When I raised the concerns, I wasn't even interested in the rhetoric of people on SAGE and COBR, and my focus was purely on improving the system to get a formal independent assessment function.

Of course, the effectiveness of that in itself will depend on making sure the independent assessors have the right experience in major hazard assessment, for example suitable Inspectors from the Health & Safety Executive.

A week or two ago, the transfer rumours appeared to be pretty rampant, but in the last few days, they appear to have really slowed to a trickle. Trying to think why that is...

Personally, I think the postponements have really helped Moshiri and Benitez. Had we lost against Leicester, Burnley, and Newcastle (or 2 of those 3), the demands for Rafa's head would have been utterly deafening right now… I think they were already very loud, and that's exactly why we saw the multiple rumours in the press. A PR attempt to buy some patience and slack.

They don't need that slack now. Christmas, Covid rise (look at this thread, for fuck's sake) and Chelsea distracted us and took the heat off a bit. I think it'll allow Moshiri to keep the purse strings tight again (hence rumours drying up a little); if it carries on going bad over February and March, he can chop Benitez and the held-back spending will be ‘justified' by manager doubts PR.

It's going to be a scary month ahead. We've got 6 “winnable” games coming up. Win most of them, and we can use the last half a season to really see what Rafa's got. Lose them and we're going to be running out of rope and in complete and utter crisis.

I cannot be the only one smiling at the irony of Gary Poole @ 148 and Terry Downes @ 151.

The former calling for stricter censorship by the editors. The latter claiming too strict a censorship on TW.

Personally, I am totally opposed to any form of censorship Gary calls for. Good evidence-based arguments always counter posts lacking the same for me.

What is there to 'fear' in Peter Griffiths' posts in this thread? He positions himself as more knowing, less gullible, than those who don't share his views. He promotes the names of Covid-19 denialists and vaccine sceptics to prop up his position. He dismisses out of hand valid, researched, referenced counter opinions as 'having no facts, blasting out a narrative, a boy's club maybe!'

He is actually describing himself and his own position, rather than those he challenges.

As for Terry, I can only assume he has submitted articles which Lyndon and Michael have chosen not to publish. I'm sure he isn't unique in that.

He surely cannot be claiming that his posts are being censored, because posts on a thread appear immediately once you submit a comment.

The only time individuals are denied that on TW, as far as I am aware, is in two situations:

1) new members have their postings delayed and vetted initially for a few turns until the editors feel confident that they meet with the site's submission standards. Nothing malicious in that at all.

2) a poster is placed in moderation for repeated infractions of the TW house rules when again their posts are vetted before being liberated. Perfectly legitimate editorial intervention again, IMO.

This very thread - and many, MANY others - is as good an example you can find at just how tolerant the editors are in allowing a broad range of opinion (not even football related!) be aired on TW.

I think they consistently hit the sweet spot in what they allow on the forum. A further delicious irony for me is that Lyndon and Michael have OPENLY expressed TOTALLY contrarian views on subjects at time. So no editorial bias one way or t'other.

They're doing a great job and offering a superb platform for all sorts of nonsense.

Mark #170,

"It has astounded me that 2 years of worst-case scenario modelling not coming to pass needed to happen."

Mark, the scenario modelling typically gives a range of scenarios, not just the worst-case scenario.

And, as you say, they are scenarios – not predictions, so we shouldn't be surprised if the worst case of the scenarios doesn't come to pass (they are developed to help us plan should the worst case happen).

You refer to Frazer Nelson on Twitter. Have you read the longer article by Nelson in The Spectator in which he refers to that Twitter conversation? In it, he asks why "Sage modellers publish some (the worst] scenarios and not others"? He's wrong; I've read the original Sage (actually SPI-M-O) paper that he refers to – there are 3 scenarios presented, worst case, middle case, and least-worse case.

Brent @174:

An issue with some SAGE models at the start of the pandemic was the fact that COBR were too reliant on them. For example, modelling outputs led the Chief Scientist to say, in early March 2020, that there was little point in putting a stop to crowds at sporting events, a statement that could be considered counter-intuitive and contrary to taking a precautionary approach early on in the pandemic.

A formal independent assessment by professionals experienced in this area of how a mathematical model should, on a case-by-case basis, influence decisions compared with a precautionary approach, could (and, in my view, would) have avoided the presence of sporting crowds.

Note here that a Champions League game took place at Anfield on 11 March 2020, with thousands of Spanish nationals from Madrid, and that less than 2 weeks later, the government ordered a major lockdown, by which time, in many respects, they were locking the gate after the horse had bolted.

This issue of the tension between models from consultants and academics, and independent assessment using established principles of major hazard safety, is a classic one which, for example, the UK HSE is used to dealing with.

The government said repeatedly that they were using the ‘best science', but by definition they were not, since that would, in the context of major hazard assessment, have required the independent assessment function to which I've referred.

Brent - the Frazer Nelson conversation (directly with leading Sage member) stated two interesting things:

1) They only model scenarios that force policy changes (your so-called “least worse” is actually the “least worse that'll require action”);

2) That likelihood is given very little airtime in the modelling.

I can sympathise with the modellers; nobody wants to be the one who said “It'll be okay” to then find it most definitely isn't.

This for me is the fundamental problem. Hysterical press and social media had turned us into setting overly cautious policy. What happens when the next bird flu appears? Next Ebola outbreak? Everyone gets freedom removed on the chance something bad may happen (with no credence to likelihood). No way to live, in my view.

If you want to live cautiously, then lock yourself down for as long as you need to.

I imagine that Benitez is hoping for another postponement on Sunday and snow in Hull next Saturday.

He really has dodged a number of bullets in the last week, not least whether he would have been forced to select a fit Digne to make up numbers.

He will be desperately hoping to get the deal on the Ukrainian done in order to justify his hard-line approach. Having had no more poor performances to try and justify, it now seems that he is to be given carte blanche to acquire the players of his choosing (budget permitting) and to mould our short-term future.

Some may think that is a hugely risky or dodgy strategy when his own position is extremely tenuous (for some, including me).

What does he have to lose? Not much, in reality. His job in exchange for another massive payout and a slice more removed from his dwindling reputation.

What does he have to gain? Kudos I imagine and a deserved sense of self-satisfaction if he is successful, even if he judges success as mid-table respectability.

What do we all have to lose? Shitloads. Potentially relegation and a group of players not fit for purpose. So… interesting times ahead.

Wishing you all a very happy 2022, but why am I so hesitant in believing that it will be so?

Some of the comments on here are clearly by people who have not lost anyone to this virus. Personally, I have and I find these comments disgusting and disingenuous; no country in the world has found the solution yet.

To moan about lockdowns and vaccines makes my blood boil – just shows how many stupid people we have in the UK.

Eric @ 157.

First, on the question of your ‘Covid-19 eradication’ claims you made way back @ 44.

You portray it as being mainstream thought by an unnamed majority of ‘experts’. You make this vague claim unsupported by evidence or links.

You now seize on the link provided by Derek Moore (not yourself) as evidence confirming your claim. Did you even read the British Medical Journal article?

It is NOT claiming CV-19 can be eradicated. It is an abstract exploring the feasibility of eradicating the virus. It doesn’t reach any hard and fast conclusions on whether it is indeed feasible, or even desirable, to eradicate CV-19. In comparison to other eradicated diseases, it concludes eradicating CV-19 is slightly more feasible than for polio, but much less so than for smallpox.

Given the disputed origins of CV-19, I think it is also important to insert a note on syntax. There is a world of difference in meaning between ‘controlling’ the virus, ‘eradicating’ the virus, and ‘eliminating’ the virus.

The vaccines are controlling the severity, the transmission, the hospitalization and the mortality rate of the virus.

The vaccines alone cannot and will not ‘eradicate’ the virus.

Smallpox has been ‘eradicated’. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been ‘eliminated’ from the planet. Why not? Because military powers such as the US, Russia and China retain smallpox stocks. THAT is another discussion altogether.

As for your continued claims about excess deaths and saying CV-19 is no worse than a bad flu season, I thank you for recalling that you once linked to the UK’s Office for National Statistics (ONC) to ‘prove’ your claims. It is the one and only time, in my recall, that you have offered any link ‘supporting’ your claims.

Even then, in the spring of 2020, very early in the pandemic to be reaching the hard and fast conclusions you attempted, the ONC’s own data was starting to reveal a disturbing trend. This was confirmed in the following in-depth report on the ONC’s site from December 2020.

Mortality Data During 2020 Covid-19 Pandemic

It’s a wordy report, but it essentially debunked claims that denialists were propagating at the time that non-Covid deaths were being incorrectly reported as such, thus inflating the numbers. If anyone cares to, scroll down about a third of the page to see graphs demonstrating just how impactful CV-19 had been on the year’s mortality rates.

The following is an even more revealing article showing how UK mortality rates in 2020 compared to nearly 200 years of data, to major catastrophic events such as the Potato Blight of the mid-1800s; the Great Freeze of 1895; World Wars I and II. The report concludes ‘even with much of this pandemic still playing out, this is already a moment of near unparalleled loss of life.’

CV-19 Mortality Rates Compared to other Catastrophic Events

It is worth noting this report was written early January, 2021. The UK had around 80k registered CV-19 deaths at that time. That number is now 148k – nearly 70k more lives lost.

Finally, on Sunetra Gupta. She first came to the world’s attention in May 2020 following a YouTube video on the Unherd Channel, which is still available today.

Sunetra Gupta Unherd Interview

In the many TW threads Michael and Lyndon allowed on TW which YOU featured prominently Eric, numerous links to Unherd vidoes were shared and commented on. You DID comment supportively on her expressed view – in May, 2020 remember – that ‘the virus was already on its way out and herd community is the way to go.’

Neither of those claims have stood the test of time. Rather like your own historic and contemporary claims, Eric.

Gary #176,

"The Frazer Nelson conversation (directly with leading Sage member) stated two interesting things:

1) They only model scenarios that force policy changes (your so-called “least worse” is actually the “least worse that'll require action”);

2) That likelihood is given very little airtime in the modelling."

Gary, I think you're bang on the money re your first point. What Medley seems to be saying (purely my interpretation and conclusion) in the Twitter exchange is that:

1. Modellers discuss with policy teams (government) what the policy teams want;

2. What government wants are scenarios for which they might need to take action – with a range of actions from minor (eg, wearing face masks) to more intrusive (eg, lockdowns);

3. There will be other scenarios where government needs to take no action (the least worse-case scenario that will require no action – thanks Gary). This seems to be what Medley is referring to in the Twitter exchange, ie, what doesn't need to be modelled, so is not being called for, so isn't modelled;

4. But the modellers still present a range of scenarios that would require some sort of government action, not just the worst-case scenario.

I'm not clear on what the Twitter exchange is actually saying in terms of probabilities – it seems to end in mid-air.

Neil. He did actually select Digne for a game only for Digne to cry off with illness. Forget which one but it was after he'd not been selected twice.

Don't drag me into this, Jay Wood.

Mike Gaynes wrote "I doubt that one in a thousand experts believe Covid can be wiped out like smallpox. If you can find even one such quote, I'd be interested to read it."

I was responding directly to that.

Gary @176:

With any major hazard, if you don't get things right in avoidance and prevention of escalation at the start, then there are big problems subsequently in terms of imposing measures for attempted control and mitigation. Such measures later on are often inconsistent with each other, ‘precautionary' too late (after the horse has bolted), and very costly compared with their effectiveness.

There was a failure to plan effectively before the pandemic, and a failure to be cautionary at its start. It was then almost inevitable that measures later on would be fire-fighting.

The government were talking at the start about ‘flattening the curve', but failed to do so sufficiently. Sensible measures for avoidance and prevention could have flattened the curve more effectively enough to save lives up to use of the vaccines.

Derek #183, you didn't find an expert who believed Covid could be wiped out.

That paper -- which made big news, by the way -- was a numerical analysis, a scoring system that found eradication theoretically and statistically possible if the entire world cooperated on vaccination and fewer new variants emerged. The authors did not predict that outcome, or even say it was desirable.

Note also this paragraph:

"Other challenges would be the high upfront costs (for vaccination and upgrading health systems), and achieving the necessary international cooperation in the face of 'vaccine nationalism' and government-mediated 'antiscience aggression'." Cooperation which we all know is not going to happen.

They postulated a theory, that's all.

Vaccine discussions seem to have reached a new 'low' on a site that welcomes points of view on almost any topic.

I sincerely sympathise with anyone who has lost a relative or friend to Covid. I also have little time or patience for those who have the nerve to make themselves out as heroes by not taking the vaccines.

Obviously Covid has had a significant effect on football and Everton have been forced to postpone games more than some other teams. But could we somehow get back to more football-related topics. There seems to be a competition to see who can prove that they know more about pandemics than any other Evertonian in the World.

Whilst appreciating that everyone is entitled to an opinion, some of the ''essays'' here are odd to say the least.

The bottom line is simple. Use common sense in the fight against the virus. Listen to the qualified medical people.

Use the mask (two if possible) at all times and get all the shots you can and try to avoid crowds – even football crowds.

Does that not reduce your risk??

As much as I’d love to get into a tête-à-tête with the pro-government control team, as I’ve already posted I’ve got as much chance of seeing pigs fly than changing entrenched views.

Michael, my thought and prayers with you and your family. Sorry for your loss.

My genuine sympathies with all those who've lost loved ones, whether it is to the virus, the vaccine, the missed cancers, the mental health impacts, and/or any other reason too.

I'm sure we can all agree, nobody's life is less important than someone else's, and it's not lowest scorecard who wins… things are never as black and white as modern politics suggest.

I remember the saying - there is no idea so daft that it will not be believed by some very intelligent people.

One problem is that there are a very large number of people with a vested interest in keeping the restrictions going, not least all the civil servants "working" from home...

Has anyone had any dealings with the DVLA recently?

John@188:

The discussions about Covid are mainly in threads to do with games cancelled due to it. I'm not sure anyone is trying to make themselves out to be clever or whatever, it's just a discussion where detail is gone into if people have taken the trouble to think, read, and have opinions about it. And its importance goes way beyond medical journals.

At the end of the day, there's nothing to stop you skipping over the Covid content and sticking to footie.

Roger Helm that is ridiculous and offensive to those having to work from home and suffering with their mental health. A proper piss take mate.

187 - Mike Gaynes - are still spouting the same old BS?

JUST IN - Robert Koch Institute report released today states that 95.58% of the #Omicron cases in Germany are fully vaccinated (28% of those had a "booster"), 4.42% are unvaccinated.

71.1% of the total population is fully vaccinated in Germany.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Tim_Roehn/status/1476575806969335812

Last night you mentioned Moderna are soon gain FDA authorisation (still under emergency use, as the others) on their so called vaccine.

Let time inform you that 1. Moderna up until now in there whole history have never ever had a (so called vaccine) on market, prior to his death guesses who was one ☝️ the major shareholders in Moderna? You can fact check this - Jeffery Epstein, surely not!

Please fact check me

Peter, bringing Epstein into this as if it is some highly relevant trump card? Surely not? Provide the link to the bottom of the barrel you are scrapping.

You really are the pro vax secret weapon.

208 - Roger Helm;

You do have point and 212 Paul Smith I don’t believe Roger’s comments were offensive at all.

Doctors receive a £100 bonus per telecom call, of which really rattles me, how the hell can diagnose most illnesses from over a telecom call. But they incentive not too see patients, this is so wrong 😑

Just because someone can identify a second order problem in a situation that requires some "fire fighting" as referred astutely above is silly nonsense. If you wanted first order efficiency that would have required preparation which was carelessly thrown out in an effort to downplay the pandemic at its origin.

You don't have a significant point although you may have a point in parlor game standings. The announcement of vested interests should be followed by an airtight demonstration that those corrupted parties have influence to affect policy, it is not clear they do in either of your examples.

214 Andy Cooks - please elaborate?

I am merely stating a fact that prior to Moderna going to the marketplace with a (so called) vaccine and losing millions of dollars a year, one ☝️ of the major investors was Jeffery Epstein.

PS: another and still is Bill Gates (Jeff’s mate) and also a smaller investor NIAH (run by no other Dr Fauci)

CYOB

Peter #219 - your best post yet.

220 - Brent Stephens

Thanks 🙏

CYOB

Barry @197, I suspect that the complications and the damage done, all round, will not become apparent for some while, if ever. Much easier to find heroes and villains.

197 - Barry & 222 Tony: wise words

Guys, please be tolerant of Peter's endless typos, childish phrasing and infantile parroting (like the Epstein/Fauci/Gates thing).

He simply has trouble typing properly with his thumb in his mouth.

224 Mike: please fact check me, instead of criticise. Please put an effort in at least?

Stick and stones can break my my bones but words can never hurt me!

I would also like to put in a word for Sunetra Gupta, Jay Bhattacharya, Martin Kulldorff, John Ioannidis and other authoritative voices who do not assent to majority lockdown wisdom.

I am insufficiently expert to offer a view on the scientific merits but none of these people are cranks, they have proven their expertise over the years and they deserve to be engaged with and respectfully debated. I rather fear that instead they are written off.

Gupta and Bhattacharya have consistently pointed out the disproportionate harm experienced by the poor and vulnerable from lockdowns and Gupta comes very much from the international Left.

They are not infallible, of course, but the dramatic inflation of Imperial's modelling shows that error exists on all sides. The Great Barrington Declaration invited debate on its "focused protection" thesis and was a perfectly honourable position - the funding is a logical fallacy insofar as it is recruited to discredit the arguments. Those arguments are either worthy or they are not.

I do worry that the "other side" of the Covid account, the effects (including health effects) on society at large, are not sufficiently measured or weighed in the balance of cost and risk. Worse, they are ruled out of court.

That is intellectually disreputable and to no-one's benefit. I took that as being the entire point of Jay's initial post on all this: openness and respect are essential if we are not to become hopelessly and dangerously divided.

Mike Gaynes:

As you mentioned falsely last that the Psizer (so called) vaccine was approved by the FDA and I said it wasn’t. Please fact check me.

The authorisation was granted under the new vile “Comirnaty’, to this date it has not being produced or distributed and the only vile on the marketplace is original “emergency use authorisation’ and not “Comirnaty.

To this date under the FDA regulations Pfizer need to supply a list of full ingredients in the vile ‘Comirnaty’ to date 39/12/2021 (yank 12/30/2021) they haven’t, so even if was produced they couldn’t use it!

FDA approved - Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty

https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download

227 - Tony Hill: at last common sense is being spoken instead of the gutter main stream media dribble.

Evertonians (and everyone else) have to stick together.

COYB

Just wondering… has it occurred to anyone else that “Peter Griffiths” might not be real, but a satirical creation of one of the ToffeeWeb wags?

I can think of several masterful TW humorists (Eugene Ruane, John Daley, Pat Kelly) who might have decided to entertain us during this slack period by inventing a character so outlandish that he would post “CYOB” – not once, but twice – and then accept congratulations for it.

To whoever “Peter” really is… congratulations. I bit hard on your hook, and feel properly reeled in!

One of the saddest and most evil outcomes from the Internet and Web Forums is the death of the middle ground.

Everton players are either wonderful and on the same level as Messi – if they could only play for a team full of players of that quality – or so rubbish they would not be selected in my pub XI... and I am in my late 60s and never go to the pub.

Same with this thread which started off about our game being cancelled and descended into a pile of name-calling and endless words trying to prove one side or the other is 100% correct.

Condolences, Michael, to the real life deaths you have faced but Covid deaths numbers do not include those of us who lose the will to live after reading everything on here!

Being a spreadsheet and numbers man, which a few of you will know, then I have tracked the number of cases and deaths (as reported) since the start of the pandemic 22 months ago. The number of deaths is incorrect. It is far too high because as we all know, going to A&E after being shot by a gangster will be a Covid death if you are found to be suffering from Covid or if you reported a positive test 27 days earlier because you were going to see your mum in the nursing home and refused entry.

But, over the last 9 months, the number of deaths has never risen above 2,327 in a 14-day period. 8th & 9th January (pre-vaccine) saw that level in just those 2 days. So that is 14% of the levels.

For the last 6 months of the year, we have recorded 7.75M cases. We only recorded 4.8M in the first 16 months. Yes, we did not find the cases in the first wave, so argue away. But, in simple terms: first 16 months before the vaccination kicked in (my 2nd jab was early May and so full immune response late May, and so, by end June, most over 50s were in the same place as me) we had one death for every 37 identified cases; since then, 1 for every 389 cases.

Do I accept that the vaccine has had an impact, experimental or not? Yes.

I am I happy that some very rich and influential people have become even richer through this? No.

Do I think that they deliberately infected the world causing 5.5M deaths and untold misery? No. I struggle to see people that evil except for those in power such as Stalin, Hitler and many others back into history.

Am I concerned that these vaccines have not had years and years of testing and research? It would have been nice. But there again, if I had cancer in my todger and it was a choice of seeing how it goes and hopefully it will heal on its own, or taking chemo which might make me impotent, I would go for the latter.

Same with the vaccine. Yes, I may have bits now floating around my bloodstream which means the Bill Gates Foundation can track my every movement... but I am still alive. And if there was some other serious side effect, it will be a lesser one than death and my family will be well cared for because there will be a class-action lawsuit in America which will then be brought over to the UK as well.

Am I impressed by the NHS? Partially. The men and women in white coats and full PPE have done an amazing job. The donkeys who lead them I would not trust them to run a whelk stall.

These guys have a budget to spend 4 times the GDP of Zambia. On a GDP per head, that is the same as our health spending per head. Zambia reports those who had Covid when they died and those who died because they had Covid. Our wonderful high tech monolithic NHS is incapable of doing that.

And still we pour in money for HR departments and Management Consultants. Managers should know what to do without needing to pay someone vast amounts of money to do so. That is what they are being paid to do.

Will this all go away. Watch the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures on BBC with Professor Jonathan Van-Tam. Very interesting. Personally, I think it will be out of the news by Easter. At current levels of Covid deaths, we will be down to 40,000 or less for the last 12 months which is 25% that of Cancer or Heart Disease and less than for Cerebrovascular Accidents (CVAs).

And I do wish the experts would answer some questions – just so I know and maybe some others could have their fears allayed.

Masks - Interesting bit by Professor Jonathan Van-Tam in Episode 2 and why they work and how they stop the spread. Visual demo with snooker balls and table tennis balls. But does that include the cloth ones, the blue ones or the ones used in hospital. Why do we only get half of the information? I know it is a conspiracy.

Vaccines – are they just to make it milder so the vast vast majority don't end up in ICU or the mortuary, or do they reduce the level of infection if you pass it on and so make it safer for everyone else?

Mutations – How many on here have not had this vaccine, but neither have they had Polio, TB, Pneumonia, Annual Flu, Measles, German Measles, Mumps, Tetanus, and all the other tropical ones if you travel there? Why does every one but the influenza virus not mutate so we need a new version but Flu and Covid do? Would be nice if the medical professionals could explain it so we don't think they are hiding something.

Yes, I do believe in the vaccines. I do believe this is a deadly infection and I do have questions about some of the information and decisions made. So I am not 100% one way or the other – I just wish a few more were the same.

Final comment. My youngest is a Lib-Dem remainer. He had not been in the office for 22 months and suffering from it. He complained about Boris saying you should work from home because he wanted to go into the office. He is now complaining that Boris has not introduced restrictions for socialising. I think that sums up the problem of the internet forums – we all want it our way and never see the humbug of our own making.

Good news, BBC reporting that Tosun is wanted on a loan by Besiktas until his contract runs out. Resisted the temptation to call him a useless waste of space stealing a living from the club. 😉 Who am I to judge? He is a better footballer than me and has scored 1 goal in every 10 full games. Not sure I could have done that.

229 - Mike Gaynes:

Once again instead of trying to insult me, of which you have, please fact check me.

On your next visit to UK 🇬🇧 I hope to meet you!

Hi Phil... according to Transfermarkt, Tosun has played 2715 minutes for us and scored 11 goals. That's a goal every 247 minutes, or better than one every three full games. And he also has six assists, or one every five full games.

Not spectacular, perhaps, but certainly not awful.

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Tosun and, in fact, he scored some rather valuable goals when he started.

Jay Wood [Brazil]. What do you do all day, besides write long, never ending rebukes to most on here? Fucking hell, let's get back to football and Everton.

There's too much shit news out there. If someone doesn't get vaccinated what the fuck does it matter? They are the ones playing Russian roulette. Honestly, are we all to put our lives on hold?

If they don't get the vaccine, then they don't get into Goodison and I can have their season ticket when they get it taken away... win-win.

234 Bobby: well said...

If it wasn’t for these brainless t w a t s that think that they more educated than most and talking absolute s h I t e, no wonder the world I’d f u c k e d up!

Bobby...absolutely right!

and

Jay. all what you've written is excellent. However, you may as well talk to the nearest wall, as those who believe the nonsense from the likes of Corbyn's crackpot brother, let them get barred out, that is their freedom.. like Bobby's said, let's get stuck in to all things our club.

Tony @ 226.

The question of how the pandemic has impacted on the poor, as well as the mental health aspect, has been discussed on these pages.

Once again, I can say I have first hand knowledge of it. Right from the onset of the pandemic I expressed deep concern how lockdowns would impact on society's most marginalised here in Brazil where MILLIONS of households without regular employment 'work' and sustain themselves day-by-day, scrapping together whatever they can and hoping it is enough to put food on the family table at the end of the day.

It could be going through the rubbish to pick out cardboard packing, soda cans and plastic bottles to recycle. Beating the streets under the tropical sun and rain for 10-12-14 hours a day which, if they are lucky, may 'earn' them $10-15.

Or selling chewing gum by the stick, rather than the packet. Or single cigarettes. Or juggling at the traffic lights. Or again at the lights squigee-cleaning car windscreens.

All of that went in the severest of lockdowns early in the pandemic. MILLIONS of households had no savings. No money coming in.

No fewer than 55% of Brazilian households are considered as 'food insecure'. That is, they 'may' eat just once a day. 10% - 20 million people - are considered to live with 'extreme food insecurity' when they go an entire day without eating at all.

There is barely a day goes by now when a meek and hollow-cheeked person doesn't appear at my house asking not for money, but food. A bag of rice. Pasta. Beans. Anything.

Speaking with my local grocer, I asked them how the pandemic has impacted on their business. The unemployment. The poverty. The raging inflation that has seen astronomical rises in staples, including gas, electricity and water.

'Huge', he replied. 'There is extreme poverty in the 'hood.'

More, their son is a vet. Brazilians, like the Brits, are huge pet lovers. He said there has been a surge - a plague - of abandoned dogs on the streets of my home city with families simply unable to keep and feed the family pet because there are not even scraps to give them.

There have been harrowing, shocking scenes, at slaughter houses where crowds of people gather to pick through the bones of the discarded carcasses with the intention to somehow make a family meal.

I will also add those who downplay the CV-19 mortality rates, equating them as being equal to annual influenza fatalities (they're not), never give mention to the survivors who suffer long covid.

It numbers in the hundreds of thousands in many countries. Previously super-fit people of all ages neutered for months on end, unable to work or function properly from a myriad of restrictive symptoms.

They too are suffering not only physically, but mentally, psychologically also.

I often find myself thinking that Covid-19 naysayers, as Michael Pennington wrote @ 177, simply have no personal experience of losing anyone to this plague, or who suffered greatly from it.

Because if they had, I would hope they wouldn't be so dismissive, crass and callous as they often appear in their observations about the virus.

Another BS book from Jay

Bobby Mallon. Where have I rebuked anyone?

Knell Bobby, what does it matter if someone doesn't get vaccinated??? And then two weigh in with something like "yeah Bobby, you tell em". This is fucking retarded.

Peter #231 " instead of trying to insult me, of which you have, please fact check me."

Peter #235 "If it wasn’t for these brainless twats that think that they more educated than most and talking absolute s h I t e, no wonder the world I’d f u c k e d up!"

Priceless!
CBOY

Jay @237, one of my heroes of whom I am sure you are aware, Dom Helder Camara:

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

"No wonder the world I’d f u c k e d up!" Shakespeare couldn't have articulated it better Brent.

Mike @ 229, I think Family Guy is his inspiration... and yes you fell for it!

In what way, Dale? Considering the thread is about football or the lack of it. Peope have a choice to get vaccinated, or not. Apart from those that haven't had the opportunity.

In what way do you think "this is retarded". Unless of course, they bunk in or the club say, sod the vulnerable, let em all in. Individual freedom or anarchy?

I AM the REAL Peter Griffiths! Someone has stolen my name. How dare they and such extreme thoughts too.

I feel I had to register to protest and post my objections to this imposter. I have friends that read this forum and I don't wish them to think I've posted those comments.

Steve - brilliant allusion to the bard. I'll forever imagine our Peter dressed in codpiece, pantaloon and doublet.

COBY

Leicester v Norwich on New Year's Day now postponed, following a request from Norwich. It's funny how most games being requested for postponement are from teams down the bottom. I believe Newcastle also want their game at Southampton postponed.

I see Coutinho is on Rafa's hit list for January, with Digne off to pastures new and Mykolenko (if he signs on 1 January) won't be able to play until after the 3rd, as the Premier League have made a new rule. They are scared of Newcastle.

Bobby, the reason players cannot play on 1, 2 or 3 January is because they have to be registered at least 24 hours before a particular round of games start. As there are a few games on 1 January, and nobody can be signed on 31 December, it just means the first game they are eligible to play in is the FA Cup the following week.

Plenty of rumours about who we're in for. I'm hanging on umtil we get people in, before making judgements about who we're in for, or who's supposed to be going. (tempting though!) It's these bloody writers, doing articles for hand rags trying (and succeeding with me!) to click on their headline! It does seem to be a particularly strong story that Mickeylenko has all but signed.
Still... got to wait and see him at Finch Farm with the shirt on.

Hopefully, if we sell Digne then that'll provide some funds, as we definitely need a fullback on either side,

I wonder who's time is up (or nearly up) who've been on the golden gravy train for too long

245 - Peter Griffiths

Great name

Jim, my calling it retarded is targeting the notion that it does not matter to anyone but that individual whether they get vaccinated. They may take that decision as a fine expression of upstanding 'think for yourself' rugged individualism. However, you don't get to brush away everyone else's concern which is based on empirical findings not some list of investors in the vaccine industry.

To continue discounting the efficacy of the treatments available and to accuse those who advocate for vaccines as being ethically compromised is a rather uneducated position. At some point you just have to call it what it appears to be.

TW, on this thread more than any other I'm aware of, has morphed into empirically dubious rants and allegedly sober opinions from many, and not least our all but self-styled Bard of Brazil, again, and again, ad nauseam, as is his wont.

However, there's a book out there by a Scouser called John Ashton. It's called "Blinded by Corona". John Ashton is an internationally revered (except by BoJo) Labour supporting doctor (that may be a clue!) who literally spells out what should have happened all over the world had anyone in government anywhere taken any account of science and those skilled in preserving public health, thereby preventing from the Covid outset the millions of subsequent deaths.

Bahrain paid for his services from the get-go and as a result their deaths now stand at 1.25% of the population. The UK has lost 4.5% of its population by ignoring him.

“Everyone should read this book. Its powerful and penetrating insight holds our leaders to account – and finds them wanting.” Professor Roger Kirby, President, Royal Society of Medicine

“Professor Ashton's counsel and knowledge has proven him to be an authoritative figure on how the threat of Covid-19 should be responded to. His early calls for mass testing were quickly heeded to in the Kingdom of Bahrain, and established him as one of the world's leading public health experts on countering Covid-19.” Salman Bin Khalifa, Finance Minister, Bahrain

“Once you start reading this book, it is hard to put down. It puts Covid-19 into the wider trajectory of public health within Britain, and is absolutely devastating on the response of the UK government to the Covid-19 crisis. A must-read for all those interested in understanding what went wrong and why.” Devi Sridhar, Professor of Public Health, University Of Edinburgh

“As with the Hillsborough disaster, the fuel crisis, needle exchange and other crises, John Ashton is calling this one correctly here. He was speaking out on Covid-19 before any politician was awake.” Gabriel Scally, Member of Independent SAGE, President of Epidemiology & Public Health Royal Society of Medicine

“John Ashton has public health in his bones. His views are erudite, uncompromising, and humane. He has judged how this pandemic would unfold better than computer simulations and politicians. The answers are in these pages and governments should listen.” Professor Kamran Abbasi, Executive Editor, British Medical Journal

“This is an important book. John Ashton shows how and why the catastrophic actions of Boris Johnson's government failed its people and led to many thousands of unnecessary deaths. If we are to avoid similar disasters, read this scorching indictment of those in power.” Ken Loach

“In 1847, the much celebrated and revered Doctor William Henry Duncan was appointed as Liverpool's first Medical Officer of Health. Like Dr Duncan, and motivated by a passion for the common good, John Ashton sees the world through the lens of public health. From the outset of the Coronavirus pandemic he has offered trenchant and coherent arguments about how the Government and public-health authorities needed to respond. His insightful book provides a valuable compass and road map as we continue to navigate our way through this pandemic. He also offers sound advice on how to be better prepared for fresh waves of Covid and other potential threats to public health. As Dr Duncan might have said – just what the doctor ordered.” Lord Alton

“John Ashton has been the voice of Cassandra throughout the pandemic. He has earned the right to be the first to tell the whole story, showing that we had both experience and knowledge, but failed to use it. But in the face of the arrogance of centralisation, Ashton gives us hope that local communities and expertise are equipped to bring the 2020 pandemic to its conclusion.” Crispin Pailing

I'll get back to Kenwright bashing from now on - promise!

Tony # 236 and Phil # 230 - I like your posts.

Anyone feeling anxious about the latest waves may find this reassuring.
Optimistic view on Omicron

Japan has a different view from most on vaccine mandates. Looking at the data they seem to be doing very well.
Japans Covid Ethics

Mike, don't play cards for a living. You really seem to love doubling down on wrong.

The "bard of Brazil" line made me smile. Another million words of haughty pretentiousness.

Not only here, but everywhere, there are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks, as the Americans say. Everything looks simple with a retrospectoscope.

Don. Did I read your post correctly? 4.5% of the UK population have died from Covid… is that what you’re saying? 1 in 20 people have died from covid in this country?…. It sounds unbelievable (for good reason).

Duncan I was just thinking about that stat over my sourdough and marmalade. Fantasmagorical!

Don@254: Seriously? You cite an author of a book, and specialist in relevant areas, yet dismiss entirely the body of COVID-related comments on this thread?

You might need to have another look at this thread, particularly as some of the comments reflect comments you’ve mentioned from the very author whom you’re extolling.

The population of the UK is about 68.5 million. 4.5% equates to just over 3 million. I don't think that many people have died from covid in the UK, but of course, I could be wrong. Does seem an awful lot though.

Rob@261: The official figures say about 150,000 dead in the UK, which is about 1-in-500 of the population, or 0.2%.

Don@254: Dr Duncans pub near St George’s Hall is named in honour of William Henry Duncan. They have a good range of bitters, and their steak & ale pie, chips and gravy is brilliant.

Cheers Stan. That figure seems a lot more feasible, although it’s still 150K too many I guess.

Phil’s first paragraph@230, is the absolute description of modern life, unfortunately.

Jay’s description of life in Brazil, for so many very poor people, is truly harrowing.

I personally know more people who have died from committing suicide, than have died from COVID, since this pandemic began, and worry for a lot of people, who will suffer the other side of long covid, meaning that life is going to leave a lot of them behind, forever.

My wishes for the new year, are for life to return to normal, people begin to find a bit of middle ground, and Everton to win the FA Cup!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE 🤞

"Monday morning quarterbacks"

Love it

Southampton v skunks now postponed, and sinbad fans are going ape shit! Seems the cat at Newcastle took ill overnight and Newcastle asked for the game to be postponed. This is really getting beyond a joke now.

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/topic/59114-saints-vs-newcastle-postponed/page/6/

Howe is taking the piss now.

Well, coal at Newcastle is now replaced by oil.

I was never in the wanting Eddie Howe group, but it's all opinions. I used to flippantly refer to him as the English Roberto Martinez as his teams tend to leak goals despite occasionally looking good going forward and pleasing on the eye. And he got relegated.

No ill feeling whatsoever towards the individual, who has done well in fairness and does try to play football the right way albeit sometimes naively, even for a purist like me.

But I suspect that if (if) Newcastle manage to do a City, Eddie Howe will be looked back on as their Mark Hughes. A decent name prior to them going onto bigger and better.

Don @254,

Since you're such a rabid campaigner for the truth, let's delve a little deeper into what you said here:

"Bahrain paid for his services from the get-go and as a result their deaths now stand at 1.25% of the population. The UK has lost 4.5% of its population by ignoring him."

Yet, according to Worldometer|Coronavirus |Population:

Barharin: 1,394 out of 1,789,718 = 0.078%
UK: 148,421 out of 68,418,899 = 0.217%

So your numbers are complete rubbish. How do you explain that?

Seems the RS could soon be asking for their game at Chelsea to be postponed. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if the RS ask for all their league games to be postponed until the AFCON is finished!

Rob, they would ask their Grandmother to sell her wedding ring if it gave them an advantage.

Off to take my calming pills.

Rob, we should do the same. We're simply not competitive without Alex Iwobi.

Bloody Finch Farm stattos they're useless, just like all those other dolts down there Allegedly muttered by a certain chap called Don having read MK's post at 270

I amazed that nobody has blamed our chairman for Covid.
He gets the blame for everything else!

I should have stopped reading Don's post @254 as soon as he quoted those ludicrous stats, not to mention quoting that famed and impartial scientist Ken Loach, but I'm assuming now that the post was a piss-take. By the way, Bahrain has the 11th worst death rate in Asia out of 50 countries according to Worldometer. So if that brilliant scouse doctor really was paid to advise on how to handle the coronavirus pandemic, they should ask for their money back.

Michael Lynch @ 276; I take it you're a Boris Johnson fan then ?

Michael@276: Whether it’s the Piper Alpha disaster, Chernobyl, Fukushima, and so on, or COVID, there’s always a quickly-formed long queue of consultants and academics very eager to provide their (paid) advice.

A major event like this is akin to a very large cherry tree springing up, full of big juicy fruit, with a lot of people eager to get their hands on the fruit.

If were not careful this thread will turn into a Covid handbook or a novel.

Rob@271: Yes, looks like Klopp might be slowly working towards cancellation on the basis of COVID cases. Not surprising given their bad luck, like with the number of players they have who suffer asthma

Stan, wonder how many had asthma before the signed for them?

Ask a gobshite that and they can't change the subject quick enough.

George @277 why would you think I was a boris fan, based on what I said? I’m not a fan of any political party or leader, I’m a fan of logic, reason and evidence.

If I’m not mistaken the majority of figures and percentages quoted here are the death rates compared to those who have positively tested for covid, not the death rates compared to total population.

4 in 100 of those testing positive is just high enough to be very concerning, but also low enough to be believable. It’s certainly worse than flu which covid deniers love to compare it too.

Dennis [275]... Didn't you know his nickname at school was Omicron!!

Michael and Duncan (and everyone else), I admit to being a lousy mathematician, sorry!

That said, Michael's stats show that the UK's death rate is about 33 times worse than Bahrain's, and that's the crux of the book I cited because with the correct governmental action so many of the UK dead would not have died.

Kris@283: I think the main number quoted in this thread, for the UK, is the number of deaths with COVID, about 150K, compared with population, about 70M, so that’s about 1-in-500. Most of these deaths were prior to vaccination, so that if we consider vaccines with the oft-quoted 90% protection rate, everything else being equal, the number of deaths could have been reduced by a factor 10, to about 15,000, a rate of 1-in-5000 of the population. This reduced figure is comparable to risks from other hazards such as flu, in which case (provided the protection rate from the vaccines is indeed around 90%), further measures to control risk could be akin to typical non-emergency reasonable measures, with no further lockdown need.

Of course, this depends on the protection rate from the vaccines being high, and sufficient vaccine take-up.

Don@285: That doesn’t address the point I made to you @260 about your criticism of this thread’s COVID comments.

David@281: It’s astonishing how those players with asthma can keep on gegenpressing for Klopp. It’s a bloody medical miracle!

Don @285, I almost hate to tell you this but UK's death rate is less than 3 times that of Bahrain not 33 times. Pesky maths eh? Also, comparing very different countries is fairly pointless. Slightly less pointless - though not much - is to compare similar countries and, as I pointed out, Bahrain's death rate per million is pretty poor compared to other countries in the region. For example, Bahrain's death rate is more than three times higher than its neighbours Qatar

I am organising a "Go Fund Me" page to buy Don a calculator.

So after his classic UK death rate is 4,5%, he has now taken the correct numbers of Michael (#270) and concluded that 0,217% divided by 0,078% is 33. 🤔.

Don, word of advice from a man who used to add up a column of numbers when the page was upside down faster than his colleagues who were sitting on the other side of the desk with the numbers the right way up. Always check for credibility. 0,078% x 33. Is that 0,217? Well simply for me 3 times 0,8 = 0,24%. So does 33 even look right. No. OK. Must have made a mistake. Should I check my facts before I hit submit - or should I just go with it and make myself look a mathematical numbskull? My advice from years of painful experience, check it looks right. The answer is about 2,78 times.

But I think there are many other factors such as population density and as I have said on many occasions in the last 22 months, Britain is more densely populated as well as being populated more densely. Also age. Also health of the population. Also amount of interaction. And last but not least, definition of a COVID death and lazy reporting by NHS management and DoH.

The website is at https://www.gofundme.com/f/buy-Don-Alexander-a-calculator?qid=860e2307f00a9657fc913162f89a44c8

I'd like to have seen a separate thread for anything related to Covid so that the threads can be kept to something that we know something about like football and EFC. The knowledge about Covid and it's effects are exactly what you'd expect from football fans. That isn't meant to be patronising btw.

Martin@291: What? There are posts on this thread that are arguably the very opposite of ‘what you’d expect from football fans’. In comparison, I would say that your assertion is precisely the kind of thing we’ve perhaps come to expect from social media.

Mea culpa on maths Michael but I used a calculator to multiply the number 0.078 by 33 and it came out to 0.217 more or less. That said, I never understood even basic maths I'm sorry to say. Ashton's book was written in mid 2020 after he advised Bahrain and they immediately fully acted on it with little loss of life accruing. In fairness how Bahrain has behaved since early 2020 is unknown to me.

And Stan (#287), I'm not criticising every post on Covid but some are tiresome to read as far as I'm concerned.

Lastly Phil (#290), your generosity knows no bounds! Thank you indeed, but even with a calculator it seems I still get it wrong. Doh!

Don, if they’re tiresome, stop reading them and skip to ones that aren’t tiresome, but don’t criticise them in a way that suggests they’re ill-informed, because that’s how it came across.

In that case Stan please accept my apology. Your posts never came into it to me.

Don, cheers. 👍

Yeah your right Derek. 298

Lets talk footy again

Time to remove ToffeeWeb from my favourites, methinks. No mention or reference to Everton /football in so many posts these days and too many seeking to belittle fellow fans of our great club !

See you when /if the site ever gets back to what it was founded for -all things Blue.

TW has become more like WhatsApp

Or for most of our games, Whatsup.

Darren # 297. How did you know what Derek @ # 298 was going to say before he posted it? 🤔🤔🤔 Youse two on Whatsapp?

No. I said something I shouldnt have said Rob.

Then I saw his post, agreed and went back and edited mine

Postponed Leicester game now scheduled for 11th January with 8pm kick off.

You should have stuck with visionary foresight and Soothsayer type special powers Darren!!

Seen that Rob. Evening kick off. Bugger.

Brilliant. You couldn't write it.

11th Jan it is then, with a full complement?

Not sure what else we are supposed to talk about at this point… David Weir turning us down to stay at Brighton?

One of the things that sets ToffeeWeb apart is its capacity to spin off into all sorts of subjects. The level of debate is, overall, impressive and I learn a lot from it.

I don't understand why such wider discussions are regarded by some as embarrassing or inappropriate. Perhaps it's a form of inverted snobbery.

Phil Roberts wrote: “Britain is more densely populated as well as being populated more densely”. I'm not sure if a go-fund-me will stop you repeating yourself, but it might be worth a try. Or perhaps a go-fund-me will stop you repeating yourself, but I’m not sure.

Duncan.

Britain is more densely populated - there are a lot of very thick people in this country who believe anything.
Britain is populated more densely - there are more people to the square mile.

Not repeating myself, just making two totally separate observations using a bit of clever word play. How is the hangover?

Covid and football aside, it's a good point about the density of the UK's population.

Geographically a small country, but population wise a relatively large country. We're just crammed onto a small set of islands.

And about 85% of that 68 (ish) million is in England. And of that 85% (about 56 million), most of it lives around or under the M62 belt and east of the M5.

The country is rammed, relegating biodiversity to eek out an existence on the hills, roundabouts and motorway verges along with shit parcels thrown from the cabs of overworked HGV drivers and those lucky enough to make a dash for it whilst stewing in traffic jams on the M25.

Too many of us - maybe it’s nature fighting back as they say.

Thanks for asking, Phil, the hangover isn't as bad as feared, but even at my most sober, your “clever” wordplay would have cleared my head by several inches (perhaps reinforcing your statement, LOL). If I heard you say it in the style of Stephen Fry, then I'd have been more prepared!

Happy New Year ToffeeWebbers worldwide (even the French)