Hurting

Couldn't agree more about the away kit, last night's is dreadful. To add insult to injury the Sky commentator described it as red.

Watching on TV I was reminded of a group of 60 year old women I see occasionally when walking the dogs - The Sefton Park Strollers.

Nothing else to say really apart from it's not the defeat that hurts but the manner of that defeat, shameful. Took me back to May 2005 Arsenal 7 Everton 0, but at least we had already qualified for the Champions League. I feel like we qualified for the Championship League last night.

Going to see South Liverpool in the promotion playoff game at Atherton on Saturday, at least I will see 100% commitment from players who do actually care.

I did it for many years myself, but had to shake my head when thinking about that disgraceful display, and the time that many Evertonians, would have been getting home last night.

I would be embarrassed to pick my wages up, if I played for Everton last night, so the only thing left to say is, that the club, do not deserve the support it receives from our fanatical away following, and the fans should be reimbursed for their troubles last night.

Siri told me that 3000 x £50 = £150,000, so what would that cost each member of our traveling party if they decided to split the bill?

When Michael Keane came on towards the end, I was doing the sums in my head and this was all the justification I needed for why I no longer travel to watch Everton playing away from home.

Sometimes it's hard enough going to Goodison, and I don't have to leave my house until half-two. I just feel sorry for the younger fans like my son, who was texting me last night.

Leaving Goodison is going to be very hard for a lot of us but, for anyone under the age of 30, it's probably going to be the best day of their Evertonian lives, such is the shite they inherited when their fathers accepted the Jinx.

The manager has to be judged on the whole and 35 points from 32 games would have left us safe and would represent modest improvement on last year. However, the past 15 games have been so poor that unless there is an uplift over the next 6 games then his position looks perilous.

Unfair to parachute someone in at this stage, if a change is made, let it happen in the summer as part of a reset.

Six games to go, six games that will have

We are a bumbling parody of a club of no import beyond our parish — and even that stronghold is diminishing.

- we aren't good enough to play the press against a half-decent side. Had some success with it in the first 10 mins, but then Chelsea just brought more bodies back into midfield and then passed it around us with ease.

- we can't afford the luxury of two sort-of wingers and then Doucoure just running onto stuff.

- This leaves Onana and Garner as two midfielders who get overrun. Got some sympathy for Garner: decent footballer in a bad side.

- missed Gueye as the screen to the back four. Palmer just sat there and made hay.

RE 60's v 80's, as you know I don't like keep looking decades back. But my take is the 80's team would have won the European Cup (but we know what happened), and if they did would have had even more success, the 60's team didn't achieve much in Europe. And yes Sheedy would defo get into anyteam in any post war era. You could see him fitting in the Peps teams and the Gunners with Wenger. Could you imagine Sheedy with Henry & Bergkamp!

Like you, Danny, I was quietly confident all day yesterday we would come away with at least a point, even when I saw the team.

Then the game started and, after an initial decent start, I saw Chelsea going through our midfield like a hot knife through butter and most of our players running through treacle. It was pathetic and not one player showed up and had a real go except Gomes in the second half, and Patterson was an improvement on the right side of the field.

The less said about the game, the tactics and the dozens of mistakes, fouls conceded, passing etc, the better. It will be etched in the memories of many for a long time.

On to Sunday and see which team turns up, players ready to try and make up for last night's pathetic performance or another to match it.

We've got to believe they couldn't be that bad again and come out to try and get those points, that's the very least they could do.

Despite being a former London Toffee, I never went to the Bridge and was warned not to by relatives. They're not as entitled as Spurs nor as deluded but I bet last night was insufferable.

There were some critical of your brand of loyalty last night which was unnecessary I feel. In for a penny, in for a pound sort of thing if you support a club. Especially this club.

I won't make excuses for our club and the way it has been run but I will always hope for the best and that we play some form of entertaining and competitive football in the future. If that means being in the Championship, then so be it. It'll be sad to lose our records to Villa and Arsenal but never mind.

I have no idea who could replace Dyche but we should seek a fresh start when we go down.

You keep being positive as it's a free commodity.

As for the 1970 v 1985 debate... okay, I was born in 78 but surely Sheedy, Bracewell, Big Nev and Gray get into that best eleven? Maybe Tricky Trev too? (There's no way I am putting in Sharp or Heath over Joe Royle as I love that man.)

Andy, I'm more of a fool. Blue canaries, if they exist are more sensible than me.

Joe, I still almost chant "Sheedy" every time we get a free kick but remember myself!

Dave, it was hard. I think I'm going to need your counselling at the next one because that was a hard pill to swallow.

But we'll be back for more.

Three wins and an appeal. We can do it. It's never been an easy ride, but one we can't give up on.

Andy thank you for your kind comments. When are you next over?

Probably one of the most under mentioned players you mention is Paul Bracewell. Such a shame we didn't see more or him.

I don't like to dwell on the past, but right now it's Everton therapy.

It occurred to me when a good friend caught up with me the day of the game (Tuesday am here) and said I was always bad company for a day or so when we lose. I suppose that's true, the collective effect on so many of us is devastating.

Normally, the funk is replaced in 24 hours or so, but every now and again over the years, it brings a horrible emptiness inside. It's the way I feel this morning on waking.

I love being a Blue, it's who I am; I wish I didn't care so much but God help me, I am so thankful I do.

It's what we all do, we grumble, but that's because we care. We demand better, but that's because we love, we stay together because we are family.

There are so many lessons to be learnt after so many wrong turns, we are living the legacy cost of one man and the choices he made.

Many of us may not be around to see the wheel turn, but it will and every single one of us has to help in even the smallest voice of support.

People talk of administration being the answer, but I don't see that; too many players have invested hundreds of millions that would be lost if that were allowed to happen.

We are in a game of brinkmanship. Everyone wants their money back but they all don't want to lose it either. A deal will be made, albeit from an unlikely one but a deal is a deal.

I doubt 777 Partners will own us, just why Moshiri persists may prove to be the most interesting piece of investigative journalism in the years to come, but right now his persistence or preference is killing us, literally.

We may never know the full, true story, I suspect it's far worse than we know, but we will get out of this pit of despair, there are too many of us who love the club as a way of life. It's who we are, a reason to be here.

Stand up, Blues, we have your back,

I thought of him as a box-to-box type like when he was with Newcastle a decade later. But he obviously combined very well with Reid etc?

Career ruined by some lunatic called I think Whitehead from Newcastle? Never the same after that.

Everton for life, no matter what they put us through.

Andrew, from a personal perspective and experience, Bracewell should have been named Gracewell. Such a talented footballer. One of the best I've watched.

He complemented General Reid and had Sheedy and Steven on the sides. My word, what a midfield. Can we get them fit for Sunday?!!!

Had it not been for injury, he would have played for Everton and England more often.

Apologies, this reflection is therapy after the trauma of Chelsea, which I'm still coming to terms with.

Win on Sunday, Everton. You owe us.

It's very true that fans moan and grumble because we all want better. A very close friend of mine for about 47 years is one of the biggest moaners I know, and I sometimes think does he use a pseudonym to write on here, but he assures me doesn't.

Anyway, last night he took his moaning one step too far, in my opinion, and I completely lost it with him. I won't go into what I said, and we did make up at half-time, but jeez this was moaning at a new level.

I fully understand it's because he wants better, he loves the club, and like me, never misses a game, home or away, with me, him and two others travelling away together. He is a smashing fella, Danny knows him, and would literally do anything for you.

I sometimes think if some of the top notch moaners on here could maybe attend one or two of the TW get togethers, then maybe we could form a different opinion on them? Who knows, maybe Ian Edwards is a top bloke after all!!

I hope to see us play next season in the Premier League at Goodison, when times are better.

What about Adrian Heath?

Unfortunately cut down by that shit house Marwood.

Andy, see you at the Bramley Moore at the next one. In the Premier League!!

Hope the homeland is fine. Belfast, where Grandfather was born. Portrush where he grew up and my members of family live in Armagh. I spent 3 years of my life in the Province and have close connections. Love the place. My nephew is making his way up into the Northern Ireland team as a goalkeeper. I will be over soon as I've told my sister I will coach him!!

But then I have Speke and Garston!

My auntie knows you so that means you get an immediate pass from me as a decent Evertonian. And I know you follow them through thick and thin so your opinion is worth a lot.

I know the route Danny takes to see us play as I used to do similar so I can only admire or sympathise. Last night it was the latter.

You two are the lifeblood like so many fans of this great club. We will come back.

The only crumb of comfort that I can see right now regarding relegation is, that after reading the esk’s latest thread, then I’d sooner go this season, rather than next year in Goodison’s final season, because if things don’t change for the better soon, relegation is going to be inevitable further down the line.

Support the team, but highlight to the league that it’s about time they stepped in to help save Everton FC.

I love the standard of teams when it gets to the latter stages of the champions league, but football has gone for me when tackles like that are deemed to be a penalty Rob.

It cost a many clubs a lot but we probably were hit hardest especially as Lineker and Howard went.

So it has turned out. And we have been utterly woeful for months now, easily the least threatening side in the league (other than probably Sheffield U but at least they look like they care).

It's the trajectory that worries me. It's down to us, Luton and probably Forest for the last slot but I really don't fancy our chances anymore. Forest may lose almost as much as us right now but at least they often look like the could score goals and win, they carry a threat. Have we the same heart to battle as Luton do? Mmm, not sure about that...

We were punished for something we didn't do.

And I am totally convinced that team would have been champions of Europe. They were that good.

They call us bitter, but it is with reason.

Your mates are great and honest.. They educate me!

I was at a legends evening last Tuesday, where Peter Reid, Kevin Sheedy Kevin Ratcliffe recalled some of the wonderful memories of that 80s team. They were all unanimous in their minds that we would have won the European Cup in 1986.

They felt that the team was invincible and could and would have gone on to greater things.

JT

Some will say it's been created by Dyche whilst others will blame the pressure of the points deductions but, either way, the only thing that is going to help the team is having the crowd behind them on Sunday.

The crowd aren't stupid and most people realize this but, with confidence very low, it's sometimes hard to contain your exasperation.

The biggest mistake was Benitez. Subsequently we've been relegation fodder.

And that is down to you know who...

Rob, as I say to family, I'll never forgive them. We would have dominated Europe but were denied.

That was bad and God forbid, what could happen v Arsenal, the last day of this season.

Hence yesterday is gone, and the Forest game must be a Crusade to victory on and off the park.

It's not Mission Impossible, but to beat Forest is doable, if the squad gets their belief back.

Hopefully the reset button has been pressed and Everton start fresh on Sunday, with clear minds and intent to win the game.

Likely a few special prayers and Nirvanas needed these next few days.

The great Joe DiMaggio said: "I always played my heart out as if there was at least one person in the stands who had never seen me play and I didn't want to let them down."

For fuck's sake roll your sleeves up, show some character and get out there and earn that King's ransom you trouser every week.

With regard to the 60s/80s debate: The 60s team was a Rolls Royce with Doc Martens on!

Nev would get in along with "Psycho" at left-back and Sheeds on the left. Sharpy up front with Big Joe. The midfield's a lock up with the Holy Trinity for me even though I loved the 80s midfield lads.

Also I agree with the amber second kit as opposed to the curtain material they were wearing last night.

Onwards to Sunday and let's pull this shower over the line again. Keep the Faith and UTFT!

So we have change the racing metaphor to snooker.

I score it over 41 frames...21-20 to 1985

Why? I hear nobody ask. Well for me, as well as being different eras, they had slightly different styles.

Again in snooker terms, 69-70 would score more 100+ breaks but 84-85 would win more of the close 59 - 56 black ball frames - they just shade it for me due to the fact that Yes, they could play a bit, but they hated to lose just that little bit more.

But - If somebody gave me one and one only, free go in a DeLorean I would set it to 68 - 69 and re-watch the next two seasons again.

Some of the one touch stuff played back then is the more than the equal of Anything the modern City under Pep have turned out...It was truly School of Science.

The only other manager who wasn't given any money is Dyche, and some people are also blaming him now because his team are devoid of confidence and seem to have run out of ideas even though he inherited a squad that simply lacks creative craft.

Blaming someone doesn't stop problems, realising your mistakes and taking responsibility for them is the only thing that does this. But all we have had at Everton is people on ridiculous wages staying put until their contract ends or they are sacked with a huge payoff – and this has been going on for years now.

The only chance Everton have is if someone can buy the club – then rip it up and start again. (Even Siri knows this judging by how quickly I wrote that last sentence!)

That is a fascinating comparison to Pep's Man City, who for me are by far the best team in the current league.

Robin, as well as a statue at the new stadium, we possibly need a name for that 80s midfield quartet.

I can't think of one right now, but will have a think.

I didn't want Benitez but came around to giving it a go.

Dyche wouldn't have been my choice, but then who else? I can't think of any manager looking at Everton taking the opportunity right now. If you can call it an opportunity.

I get frustrated with tactics, but I've given up blaming managers. It's more deep-rooted than that.

The players must be struggling with what is going on around them. Many got animated at Chelsea. I didn't boo them. I just stood there, arms folded and watched them off the pitch. I never leave until they are all down the tunnel.

Unfortunately the owners, the coaches and the players are not giving you and the tens of thousands of others like you, any encouragement at all.

Chin up, mate. You and all the other crazies will be needed again on Sunday. It's looking like the jockey may have to carry the horse over the line for the 3rd year in a row.

Yet there were fans on here actually questioning his tactics; he realized very quickly a low block and hit teams on the break was the only way to move this club forward. So much so, he had this dysfunctional club 2nd in the league on Boxing Day.

Sadly because of Covid, we didn't get to see James Rodriguez live. But he made Calvert-Lewin into a back-up striker for England and realized he had limited ability so told him to stay in the box, don't run the channels, and when the ball was delivered, head it or shoot don't take a touch.

Moshiri's first appointment was Koeman, very little experience except getting Southampton to mid-table, and he looked at managing Everton as a stepping stone, no more no less.

Then we had Silva who was okay but never a manager to get us into the Top 6. Allardyce and Dyche very similar in their method of play, with little or no excitement watching their teams play.

Lampard had failed to get Derby promoted despite having money and access to Chelsea youngsters. I remember saying we need to remove him before the World Cup; we didn't and it nearly cost us our Premier League status.

I look back and think I was actually on my feet cheering when under Lampard we stayed up by coming from 2 down to beat Palace. In hindsight, that shows how far we have fallen: I was celebrating staying up – ambition? What ambition.

Now I accept changing managers as often as we do doesn't lead to any stability but, if your appointments are as bad as ours, then it's inevitable that they will fail and changes have to be made.

With so few games left, changing Dyche isn't an option… but, whatever happens, he can't be our manager next season.

But, for those who say nobody could do better than Dyche, I suggest you look at Gary O'Neill or Riola, O'Neill took over Wolves a day before the season started.

I loved that last paragraph, but the 1962-63 team third by a head? I know it's only opinions but gerra out of here! I'm not having that, mate!

I'm generally optimistic and have never thought we would get relegated (even after 20 minutess of the Wimbledon game in ‘94). I still have the belief that we will sneak 7 points from the last 6 games and, as long as we don't lose to Forest or Luton, then we will stay ahead of them.

My admiration for Danny, Rob et al knows no end. I live in South Africa and always get back for a game or two (I left in ‘97 and only missed the Covid year) but that performance on Monday almost had me in despair.

My comments would be: I can never believe players choose to coast through a game but I'm convinced one or two on Monday chose to do that. They must not be chosen on Sunday.

The team structure continues to confuse me. I do think Young tries and is doing his best but he is completely ineffectual in that right-side midfield role. It gave Chelsea a freedom they should never have had and puts too much pressure on the middle two.

When McNeil and Doucoure are out of sorts, it is no wonder that the defence was put under so much pressure. Our lack of pace is alarming and wonder if Danjuma can become this season's Whittle or Campbell?

Finally, Gomes must start. I never thought I would say this 12 months ago but he is the one who can bring some creativity and presence to central midfield. The only one who looks to pick a pass.

A fit Gueye behind him to protect what could be a very weakened defence is possibly our get-out, together with a fit and firing Dom. Fingers crossed…

To the debate on our best ever team, which is a current welcome distraction. My first game was March ‘65 so I can't really comment on class of ‘63. I always go with the late '60s team, I suspect because it's through romantic schoolboy eyes. Both were outstanding.

I am on Derek's side that the 1968-69 team played the best football of any Everton side I have seen.

Here is my go at a joint team (just for fun), understanding that the first three names on the team sheet would always be the Holy Trinity:

Southall, Stephens, Ratcliffe, Labone, Van den Hawe (assuming Wilson had left in ‘68); Kendall, Ball, Harvey, Sheedy; Royle, Sharp.

So 4-4-2, but I would worry that Royle and Sharp were too samey (the striking alternatives would be the likes of Husband, Whittle, Gray – though in modern parlance could be five in midfield with Steven taking Sharp's place and he and the likes of Ball and Sheedy playing further forward).

On the basis he was bought in 1985, I could cheat and put in Lineker?! So ironically, it's a 6-5 win for the ‘85 players though I do think Wright and Stephens could play each half and make it a score draw!!

It is hard to miss out the likes of Reid and Bracewell. I suspect birthdates will gauge the balance of the team, not least if didn't see the earlier one.

My final comment is to thank Christine for always posting such well-written, well thought-out and objective commentary. I know how hard it is to be far away in this time of need.

I hope all there on Sunday have the patience and passion to provide the support that has pulled us through over the past 2 years.

[Apologies for the long post but it becomes very therapeutic!!]

A post can never be too long if it is interesting and yours was very interesting and good.

Smart of you to do a mixture of all the different eras of the successful Everton winning teams, it should add to the debate.

In my '60s team only goalkeeper, left-back, left-half and right-winger is up for debate.

Ray Wilson could come into it, but no cheating allowed so itss Pat van den Hawe there. Tony Kay came into the '60s team so that removes any argument, and Southall in goal can't be argued against. Steven gets the Number 7 spot.

I'd like to cheat by putting Bobby Collins in there, so I'd like to put Dennis Stevens in there but how could I with Alan Ball there? Joe Role is a nap for striker.

Sharp was good but not good enough to replace Roy Vernon and I can't pick Tommy Ring so Johnny Morrissey stays there, sentiment leaves Jimmy Gabriel at right-half; otherwise, it's Howard Kendall.

Leaving my team as: Southall, Parker, Van den Hauwe, Kendall, Labone, Kay, Steven, Ball, Royle, Vernon and Morrissey.

With condolences to many great players especially Colin Harvey who never made the cut in my old “W“ formation.

To add to the debate, Harry Catterick would be my manager.

I was basically comparing the two seasons but see what you have done there! I never saw Stephens, Kay or Vernon though I wish I had seen Kay – all who did say he was a different class.

I'm surprised Alex Young doesn't get into your team. I saw him but he was past his best. Interesting you include Morrissey. A critical but underrated cog in that 1969-70 team.

You have three at the back and no Ratcliffe?

Maybe Howie is player manager!!

On a technicality, Ray Wilson made 9 appearances in the 68-69 season. So you could include him if you want.

The 1963 team were pure class and the 1980s team were invincible but the team of the Holy Trinity were numero uno.

As for the formation of the team, I realise you wouldn’t know about “ W” formation of 2 3 5 which consisted of two full backs, three half backs and five up front line out which were two wingers, a striker, a scheming inside forward ( Ball) and a complimentary striker ( Vernon) which when looked at as the team lined up to start the game formed a “ W” formation, and Van den Hawe was the left back.

As for Alex Young not getting in the team I was picking that team through Harry Catterick’s eyes, as the manager, although I think Harry would have had a hard time leaving Colin Harvey out and to keep Danny happy he might have selected Kevin Sheedy if he had been in his squad!

Couldn’t leave Morrissey out, fight, bite, plenty of skill and loads of centres planted on Joe Royle’s head.

Howard Kendall as player manager? Now why didn’t I think of that? You know what Dave you always learn something on ToffeeWeb!

I’d also have Kay in over Kendall any day of the week. I reckon he was one of the main reasons we won the League 62/63.

After that bloody awful freeze, we slogged through at least 2 games a week, for weeks on end, on pitches that had been under ice for about 3 months. I think Kay, Gabriel, Stevens and Morrisey dragged us over the line. Carrying a few knocks I’ll bet.

Alex and Roy got the plaudits, and no problems with that, but that engine room deserved a lot of credit.

In fact if I put John Hurst in for Roy Vernon it might be stronger, we would lose Roy’s goals but be stronger in defence and Hurst scored a few.

With Ball up and down and all over the field, Morrissey defending and attacking like did, Kendall still supplying Steven down the right while defending and organising the whole midfield I doubt we would have any problems except for Alan Ball fighting for the captains armband off Brian Labone and getting knocked back, then Tony Kay stepping in and picking up the armband!

I'm too young to have watched Colin Harvey, Alex Young, Labone and Alan Ball and I am intrigued by Kay. Apparently he would have been in the England 66 team. I did watch Kendall as a substitute when he was player manager in the early 80s. He still had it.

I can only go off the education I received from my family for that generation of players.

Gabriel was one of Carey’s first signings in 1960, still a teenager, and properly hard. After Ring, Vernon, Lill. With Collins and Vernon clicking.

Gabriel picked his victims up off the floor, after he’d flattened them, when he first arrived. He soon stopped that. To avoid RSI probably

That was a time.

Kay would’ve been nailed on for England, and the World Cup. 50 caps minimum. Providing Alf liked him. A real all rounder.

He was better than Stiles, better than Peters, in their roles, and as good as Moores in his.

He was that good, Danny.

I remember one of his first games for us, I came out of Cammel Lairds one Saturday afternoon, got the Echo and looked in the “ Stop Press Column “ we were winning 2-1 in the half time scores, that will do me I thought as a young twenty year old.

When I got home I found out we’d got battered 6-2, I think Derek Kevin scored four, maybe five of those goals, Jimmy was marking him!

He went on to more than prove he was an excellent signing.

Tony Kay, Ah what might have been, a thorough professional, never drank, had a bet, a very stupid bet and put his hand up and admitted it, today he would have had an agent who would have sorted all this out without any bother, too late now but a certain great career destroyed through stupidity.

Sorry lads for me the time of clutching at straws & looking at my crystal ball to see where, if anywhere, the magical 6 or 7 points will come from is over.

It'll be more of the same next season. More Elastoplast covering the leaking festering wounds of our once great club.

We have no money, we'll continue to have no money. The likes of Branthwaite & Onana will be sold to clear debt & we'll get no one to replace them. We'll be lumbered with Beto & Chermiti until their contracts are up.

I'm torn... should we stay or should we go?

Relegation means clearing the decks of all the money grabbing mercenaries, they'll run for the hills - ICU. Rebuild with honest professionals working hard for the team as much as themselves - HDU. Finally regaining our place in the top tier - Discharge.

I've got to the point now where I'm not convinced that staying in the EPL no matter what is the best course if performances similar to Monday night become increasingly regular.

We're so far back in terms professionalism & player performance that even a safe mid table position seems unlikely any time in our future.

We have lazy, demotivated 1st team players & our youngsters are being ground to dust endlessly waiting for a chance to show enthusiam allied with growing skill together with a fearless atttiude.

Would they grow & thrive in the EFL? I think they would.

He could tell our players what it means to play for Everton.

I have a photo of me meeting George Wood outside the players entrance on Goodison Road.

Nigel Martyn. Fantastic when he was with us, but the one we let slip away in his prime.

Iain, I liked Bobby Mimms. He was decent backup.

Not his fault, but I still think Neville's injury was a contributing factor that led to us losing the League title in 1986.

McNeil, Onana, and Harrison could cover that in their weekly not monthly wage.

There’s a picture I treasure of Ray Wilson in the garden of his perfectly ordinary home getting a lawn mower started with his wife and kids look on. I remember Derek Temple less than ten years after the final turning up on my mate’s door in Thornton trying to sell double glazing.

There never are golden ages: that’s just romantic hindsight made more pungent in bad times. Never because there is always something or someone going on to the contrary.

Ray Wilson and Derek Temple would have felt for the 3,000 and identified with them. Rob Halligan told me that only two Everton players went to the fans after the final whistle on Monday: Mylolenko was one, I’ve forgotten who the other one was.

Pick any three players who disgraced us on Monday night – Gomes excepting – and they could more or less club together to get that £150,000. The three golf balls on the sidelines could cough up the £150,000, not least because they shoulder most of the blame.

It’s often invidious to pick one of them out because the toughest competition at our club right now is to be the shittiest player or coach. Sorry, but Onana represents to me all that is wrong at the moment: he doesn’t seem to care or to put in the required effort and energy, he was all smiles on the touchline in one shot in the second half, he’s paid a salary way in excess of his ability, and did we see him doing his usual dance in front of the fans after the final whistle?

Dyche said in his post-match presser that they would pay back the fans. He wasn’t talking money, he meant on the pitch. We need a different story, he said. We move on.

I don’t think that any of the Stamford Bridge 3,000 should be holding their breath.

What have we become?

Great shot stopper, but doesn't command his box.

He had a poor game Monday, but so did most of the team.

Best they pay us back on Sunday.

Not going off the subject but I saw the Amy Winehouse film about her life and career last Saturday night, she never wanted fame or fortune but she was in communion with her fans on and off the stage, even getting off the stage and going right down to the front of the crowd and singing and dancing with them and they were doing the same back to her appreciating each other and very happy together.

Flashback to Monday night, players (?) getting brewsters every week for playing the game they should enjoy, some of them couldn’t get off the field fast enough, one of them, to me, was happy to be substituted.

I understand fans on here getting fed up listening to stories of the past, yes it could get on your nerves but believe me those players we refer to were more than happy to be paid twice as much as the working man and thought themselves lucky to be paid for playing the game they truly loved.

Andy # 70, Pickford is, as you say, a very modern type of goalkeeper. I only really go back as far as the early 90s for my goalkeepers - the likes of Schmeichel and Buffon and Kahn being amongst the best of that era. They'd all be fine now, albeit less useful to a side like City than Ederson is (despite being much better at certain aspects of the game).

Brian # 46, I find it difficult to get my head around your position. For me, the clear and obvious failing of the Moshiri era is not the selection of managers (albeit not great - especially Koeman), it's the absolutely idiot approach to recruitment in the period 2017 to 2020.

This is the period where we spent the proceeds of the Lukaku sale, along with additional outlay from Moshiri. The recruitment was so poor that the money had dried up by summer 2021 and since then the club has behaved financially as though we have been relegated. Financially, we haven't competed as a Premier League club for around 3 years now.

Koeman, Allardyce, Silva and Ancelotti take some of the responsibility for the recruitment, as do Walsh and Brands, but at well run clubs the recruitment strategy is really determined by the club management.

Brentford and Brighton have now assembled better squads than us after owners Bloom and Bentham both deployed recruitment strategies based on data analytics to source players learned together at Premier Bet. None of the recruitment is down to the managers.

I've said it many times of this site; we are no longer in an era where you just wait your turn for a good manager to turn up. That's not what turns football clubs around. What turns football clubs around is a strategy to feed whoever the manager / coach happens to be with quality players.

Robert, would you not included Manuel Neuer on the list? I would. World class.

Yes they had a great run in, but all we had to do was win our games.

I remember, my first time on the kop, 22 February 1986, but there was a lot of us, on the main stand side, and just KNOWING that we had won the league when the final whistle went.

We played our best footy in Howard's Way in 1985-86. Lineker was immense.

Southall: W6 D2 L1, F21 A10

I think that's right.

The early 3-2 derby loss, when it appeared to me that Kendall was still trying to put together the most effective 11 to include the newly arrived Lineker.

Even the 'standard' draw in a derby takes 2 points off Liverpool and adds 1 point to the final totals

All the rest, bounce of the ball, injuries etc, can and probably would've played out as it did.

1st; Liverpool 88 - 2 = 86 points

2nd; Everton 86 + 1 = 87 points!!

You don't have roots in Hough Green do you?

Yes, Derek, you and I can both be wise after the event (and we are😁) but I always feel obliged to point out that Mimms wasn't the reason why we didn't end up Champions. Indeed, our goals against were lower with him in goal for the nine League games when he played.

And, please, don't anyone come on and accuse me of saying he was better than Neville. There are numerous reasons why we didn't end up top of the League but Mimms isn't one of them.

It's not so much on Mimms, it was more that we missed Neville's presence.

Onto Sunday and get to 30 points before we get those 2 back and win more on the way.

Albert played well over 200 games for us and I think I'm right in saying that his final game was the night we beat Fulham at Goodison to win the 1962/63 championship.

It will be interesting to see Dave A’s response to you about Albert Dunlop, mate.

I’ll leave it to him I think

Small for a goalkeeper nevertheless a good brave goalkeeper, he definitely played in that game v Fulham, afternoon by the way Stephen, when we clinched the title, not sure if he played in the last three or four games that season because West was injured, Derek Temple also played the last few games on the wing that year.

Harry Catterick paid a good fee for Gordon West then a young keeper with Blackpool so he must have thought he was ready to take over from Albert.

Dunlop later blotted his copybook with Everton and the fans with his story in The Sunday People about Everton players taking drugs ( Purple Hearts I think ) during that title winning season and that didn’t go down to well. He also got himself into some trouble with his gambling debts near the end of his Everton career, but now I’ve took my shawl off after that bit of gossip he certainly never let Everton down when he played for the team. He was also the wicket keeper for Everton when they played the annual cricket game pre season with Bootle.
I don’t remember were he went to after Everton but I’m surprised I never remembered him the other day when I did my list of goalkeepers, thanks Stephen and that pushes Calamity another place back on my list!

It was all based on the fact that it had been a horrendous winter and match cancellations had resulted in a huge fixture pile up. I could be wrong but towards the end of the season didn't we play 4 games in 8 days including 2 games against Birmingham on consecutive days. Albert said that we could never have done it without Catterick's little purple pills.

Dave, I thought he went to Rhyl as player manager. Could be wrong.

I remember years ago, on this very forum, Jimmy Gabriel came on from USA to call Albert out for his behaviour.

I’ve an idea that he got involved with some dodgy dealings in the city later on, reported in the Echo, when it still pretended to be a proper newspaper. He died pretty young too I think.

He was certainly mentioned as a possible England pick at one stage, I recall. Very agile and not so big, but in those days plenty of England goalies were, like Ron Springett Eddie Hopkinson, and Alan Hodgkinson.

Mind you the average height for a bloke was about 5’8 in those days.

I checked out the enquiry facility on this website. There is something from Tony Kay on this subject.

A Letter From Tony Kay – You'll see his opinion. He's not shy!

Not a peep from him since about 1965, and then this.