Beaten by the Better Side

LetÂ’s just gloss over the majority of the season and call it "a poor start" and letÂ’s use language like " virtually better than every other team" for the obvious blip lately. If today is how you want to see us play, you will probably get your wish, as this is how it will be. Martinez out.

Not sure I agree with many, if any of your points, Trevor.

This Â’divine rightÂ’ crap is just the most ridiculous excuse apologists come out with for poor performances. Yes, it takes two to tango, but when your players, who you know can perform at a far higher level, produce such a dismal display as in the first half, then having fans justify it with this Â’divine rightÂ’ stuff, it is sheer bollocks of the highest order.

The fact that we are were top of the form table only underlines the paucity of both the performance and the result this afternoon. Winning is supposed to breed confidence and generate a better performances, but all the old bad habits returned today, not least the utterly dreadful passing, which is key to whether we play well or not.

Injuries is another lame excuse. There are always injuries. Every season. There were injuries last week; there are injuries this week. Are they a factor in todayÂ’s performance? No. The exact same team that performed so well last week could have been selected... but it wasnÂ’t. Injuries? Another nonsense excuse for a bad display and a bad result.

Then you cite extra fixtures and a very small squad? More complete and utter nonsense in the context of todayÂ’s game! How exactly did those factors play in to our very good recent run? They didnÂ’t of course. Is it any wonder these apologist contentions create such intolerant responses? Complete garbage.

Next, it’s the old, tired hackneyed ’money’ argument — ironically made in the same breath as recognizing how we just gave ’moneybags’ Man Utd a footballing lesson last week. I can only assume the significance of that juxtaposition is lost on you.

Martinez has a pretty decent side, despite your repeated posts bleating about the lack of players — he proved that last season. The key is how he trains them, how he selects them, how he motivates them...

ItÂ’s not a Â’hate campaignÂ’ when we lose; itÂ’s a recognition that we lost against a poorer side when everyone and their mother knows we could and should have done one hell of a lot better.

Yes, Villa played better than us on the day. Yes, that happens. If you had elaborated on that point, instead of wheeling out all this other garbage, perhaps it would have some merit. But none of the excuses you cite provide any reasonable justification or explanation for such an abject display of poor football from Everton.

If Roberto had stuck to the same team as last week, IÂ’d agree with your analysis of todayÂ’s game. But reverting back to possession football is the problem; we gave Villa the initiative and meekly surrendered in the 1st half. We were a bit more direct in the 2nd half but by then it was too late.

ItÂ’s happened too many times this season and I canÂ’t see it being any better next season, getting behind the manager will become increasingly more difficult, heÂ’ s obviously the wrong man for the job but he could see out his 5 years of mediocrity with BK backing him to the hilt.

Spot on Trevor Lynes. I could only follow the game on the LF and it sounded like we were dreadful but we have improved lately and IÂ’m certain we will be back to our best again next season.

If we want the best from our Everton team then we shouldnÂ’t be ashamed of saying so, if the supporters believe that certain aspects are poor and have been poor for most games this season then they are correct in making the call.

MartinezÂ’s most ardent detractors also said that there was a time and place for attacking the manager and it wasnÂ’t the right time six games ago because we all had to pull in the same direction to ensure we had a Premier League campaign to look forward to next season.

We have 3 more games left of this campaign and we can look back upon one of the most abject seasonÂ’s in our recent history, every club has injuries, suspensions and players out of form but generally not for the whole campaign.

EvertonÂ’s away form is becoming a little concerning, what has happened to being difficult to beat on the road, we lose the first goal and it signals the end in most cases of coming away with at least a point. I could accept that if it was because we were becoming too adventurous but itÂ’s the opposite we look toothless away from Goodison and very brittle at the back.

Some have bemoaned the fact that RM changed his team today, it shouldnÂ’t make that much difference if Ross and Leon are on the bench the 11 who started are playing for the club and should show a great deal more pride in doing so than they did this afternoon.

I am still waiting to see if Roberto has a ruthless streak, I donÂ’t believe he does or at least not in the right way. Personally IÂ’d bring in a new manager now and not wait until October/November/December because that would be another season wasted, watching Everton chasing shadows and getting nowhere fast.

Martinez accepts defeat too easily and so too do some of the squad, itÂ’s fine winning the odd game against one of the big boys but beating the lower half teams regularly takes a lot more graft and thought than was on show today or indeed for much of this season.

Where to begin with this, which is so delusional it could have been written by Martinez himself.

Â’Bad startÂ’, Â’Get behind the teamÂ’, Â’virtually better than every teamÂ’, Martinez out talk dross in the extremeÂ’, Â’no divine right to win the gameÂ’, Â’extra fixturesÂ’

I totally, catagorically and completely disagree with everything written here. Even discussing the reasons why would be a total waste of time and effort to be honest. What a load of garbage. Villa were the better team yes, but my God, the excuses here are painfully desperate.

6 games are apparently the real barometer of this season. This and the 28 games before were simply unfortunate blips that we simply have to accept as being Â’a bad startÂ’? Unbelievable.

I respect your faith in Martinez, but this piece is so desperate and delusional it actually strengthens the case to get rid of him. The words Â’Outplayed by Aston VillaÂ’ IÂ’d say is total proof.

WouldÂ’ve guessed youÂ’d agree Colin. This deluded pretence of Martinez Â’hopefully coming goodÂ’ is desperate and so vague and thatÂ’s all his loyalists come up with. Or blame the Europa League.

The evidence and case against him? Just look at this season as a whole, his delusional ramblings qnd this shower of shite today.

ItÂ’s desperate, itÂ’s delusional and itÂ’s an acceptance of 2nd best and mediocrity, all out of blind faith. Apparently Sunday was Â’the corner being turnedÂ’. Well this is the reverting to type and sums up this season completely. We got battered by a side that could still be relegated. And we should just accept it?

IÂ’m sorry, I wonÂ’t and I definitely will not join the desperate pretence of this season being an unfortunate fluke.

Wow, Colin... so you didnÂ’t actually see the game... but Trevor is "spot on" with these rationales to justify and explain away a really poor and a very disappointing display under the guidance of a manager who, I believe you promised us, was going have us finish the undefeated?

YouÂ’ll forgive me, I hope, If I take your current promise of jam tomorrow (Â’back to our best next seasonÂ’) with an ample bag of salt. I can understand you telling yourself that, as it must feel reassuring... but how can you even begin to know which Martinez we will have next season?

Perhaps it isn’t only the Martinez bashers who didn’t think much of today’s performance at Villa Park. Here’s the Echo’s ratings of the players – speaks for itself I should think.

Players ratings

I must admit my prediction of an unbeaten run has come crashing down to earth, sadly.

I wasnÂ’t talking about this game, Michael, I was talking about my belief that we have improved recently and, I firmly believe, we will be a lot better next season.

Trevor,

A brave piece to post after a performance like the one we witnessed today. However, I do feel it is slightly misguided.

I was about to respond on the match day thread (to, I believe it was Joe who made the first comment here) regarding the claims that there is some sort of Â’Martinez cultÂ’ who believe that a belated run of better results magically erases all the shite that came before. However, the point I was going to make can also be made to yourself and anyone else claiming that people with warranted criticisms are conducting a Â’hate campaignÂ’ against the manager.

Why is there the need to draw some invisible line in the sand and say those who donÂ’t see things the same way are shooting the football club in the foot? Whether that be by, supposedly, accepting second rate performances from a managerial meff or failing to offer sufficient support and stand behind Â’the boysÂ’ no matter what.

No-one on here is a Martinez booster/berater first and then an Evertonian second. The club and itÂ’s results are always the most important thing. If we win a few games, worries and criticisms will naturally abate. Lose a few and such concerns come sharply back into focus. ItÂ’s just the way of the footballing world. ItÂ’s not about planting flags and refusing to be moved from a pre-determined mindset.

IÂ’ve moaned about Martinez plenty, but IÂ’ve also defended the man when IÂ’ve felt criticism to be undeserved, premature or personal. Does that mean IÂ’m contradicting myself, because itÂ’s starting to feel like choosing a side and point scoring on here is becoming almost as important as THE side and the points theyÂ’re playing for.

That link didnÂ’t work but here is the assessment

TIM HOWARD: Out of step with his improved levels of late. Worryingly indecisive on crosses and weak kicking. Score 5

LEIGHTON BAINES: Toiled endlessly but was way off his best. Partly culpable for Villa's opener and failed to add much going forward. Score 5

PHIL JAGIELKA: Not the way Everton's Player of April will have wanted to start May. Shaky for Villa's first two goals, and struggled to contain Christian Benteke. Still, provided some vital blocks and intelligent distribution, plus the late goal that provided a shaft of hope. Score 6

JOHN STONES: No glaring errors and made every attempt to build on his colossal United display but had a steep learning curve with Benteke's powerful display in the first half. Score 6

SEAMUS COLEMAN: Didn't get forward enough and failed to make much of an impact on the game. Score 5

JAMES McCARTHY: Another who found it impossible to recapture his best from last weekend. Out worked by Delph and out thought by Grealish. Score 5

GARETH BARRY: Sluggish, ineffective and his lack of pace was cruelly exposed by Thomas Cleverley for Villa's third goal. Score 4
AARON LENNON: Provided the usual workrate and improved in the second half but overall didn't create any chances and won't include this in the DVD showreel to persuade Martinez to make his stay permanent. Score 5

STEVEN NAISMITH: Restored to the starting line-up for the first time in almost two months but looked rusty and subdued. The Scot has gone backwards since signing his new contract in December. Score 4

KEVIN MIRALLAS: Poor. Little of his usual cut and thrust and criminally lacked commitment – not least when hurdling 50/50 challenges. Score 4

ROMELU LUKAKU: Lost the battle of the Belgians conclusively but still dispatched his penalty with aplomb and was responsible for some of the more positive moments after the break. Score 5

LEON OSMAN (for Naismith 75): Brought his usual calm and composure to period of revival which almost threatened to pinch a point. Probably should have started. Score 7

ROSS BARKLEY (for Mirallas 75): More dynamic than those he replaced and tried to make Everton more direct. Score 7

Thanks for posting those player ratings, Patrick. I usually canÂ’t get through the Echo stuff because they are so often overly positive (a bit like our manager I guess) but I couldnÂ’t argue a word or a score... Phil McBride, I assume?

ThatÂ’s a pretty damning assessment from the usually complacent Echo, Patrick. On the LF people were asking if Mirallas was actually playing and it sounded like Seamus, Nessie and Barry all had stinkers.

Michael - Greg OÂ’Keefe is responsible for those ratings.

Trevor, if we had gone to Villa and been a bit unlucky having played well and lost 3-2, then I would take your comments on board.

The cruel facts are that we were flattered by the result. The manager has claimed that it is hard to continue on what they did to Man Utd. He changed the team. and the formation. I thought he would try to play on the counter again, as we all know Villa needed the win. Although IÂ’m sure Sherwood would have a plan having seen what we did to the Mancs.

Martinez also failed to get his players "up" for the game. They were on a good run, confidence was high and flip-flops and sun cream should not have been on their minds.

We have papered over the cracks recently. Howard still doesnÂ’t command his area, and catch high balls. Stones (despite high praise from his boss) still makes mistakes, and the shambles between him and Barry, for one of the goals, was as daft as Jags being caught under a high ball again leaving Baines to jump with a man 6 inches taller. Usual outcome.

Lukaku scored a penalty, but did his best to fuck it up. Mark my words, Baines is out of favour. Lukaku was so poor first half, and his compatriot Mirallas is not someone I would want in the trenches with me.

Champions League – my arse.

Â’We played extra fixtures with a very small squad which was soon depleted further by injuries we could not cope with adequately.Â’

Would those be the extra games we had to play by going on decent cup runs in the League Cup and FA Cup? Ah, hang on... erm... mmm.

As for smashing Man Utd due to some tactical genius by Martinez. I’d just remind you that Man Utd are far from the team they once where. In fact, they just lost at home to West Brom – their third defeat on the spin. In fact one of the biggest mysteries in the league this year is how the fuck Man Utd are in 4th place!

Villa were the better side but the people calling for the manager to leave are not basing this on one game – they are basing it on the last 9 months.

Patrick 12, you are far too generous with the ratings. My rating for all our players would be in descending order from a max of 5.

Martinez's tactical nous does not deserve a zero rating.

Dick,

They weren’t my ratings – they were from Greg O’Keefe in the Echo. Hard to believe, I know - but I’d tend to agree with your assessment. How can a team go from a five-star performance to a zero-star performance in less than a week?

IÂ’m still not sure the team are playing for Martinez at all. If you also see what has happened at Villa with Sherwood, in contrast to how they were performing with Lambert, it makes you wonder if player power is at work more often than weÂ’d like to believe.

Also, look at the bright-eyed bushy-tailed Martinez that arrived at Goodison nearly two years ago and compare that to the one who stood on the touchline at Villa Park today.

Patrick,19, When allocating individuals scores, the method I use Very good = 5+ Good

Trevor mate, you’re living in cloud cookoo-land. Out played by the ’better’ side; yes I’ll give you that one, but we made them look better – end of story.

As for ’Brilliant’ well that’s as maybe. Not only did we make them look ’better’, we were so piss-poor collectively and Individually, there may have been two that could’ve brushed their fingers on ’quiet to average’ if they stood on tip toe... well on reflection, maybe you’re right, they were brilliant – compared to us!

Three things come to mind:

1) I would begrudge even 10 games next season.

2) IÂ’m glad I didnÂ’t lose my much-needed beauty sleep staying up to watch it. So I set the recorder.

3) It turned out it wasnÂ’t needed, I woke up in good time to watch the replay at 7:30am. Boy was I fuming when I found that Foxtel in their wisdom, had over run the NASCAR from Alabama or some such place and I had to sit there for 30 mins.

This amounted to 33 cars tailgating each other whilst circling an oversized roundabout at 170 mph... Yippee! and you know what. It was more exciting.

Taxi!

Trevor,

To quote Henry Root..."YouÂ’re either labouring under a massive misapprehension or youÂ’re an ingenious hoaxer"!

Our performance today was abysmal. Any team would have looked good against us to be honest.

Everton remind me of a kiddies' team where you can tolerate inconsistency at a young age. However, once you get to the U-14/ U-15s age group one expects a certain maturity that delivers a consistent level of play.

Everton, despite the fact they are big boys, continually dish up inconsistent performances which quite frankly, is totally unacceptable at this level.

Agree with that, John. I think we all want to get behind the team and the manager, but sometimes itÂ’s hard.

IÂ’m disillusioned at the minute, but IÂ’m sure itÂ’s with football in general, even though IÂ’m sick to the back teeth of the lies and the assessment that Everton is a well run club?

People will get behind the manager if the team is at least trying to give the fans what they want to see. I love good football but have never thought that possession for the sake of it is better than penetration, and a team looking to score goals.

I think everyone wants to get behind Martinez, even the people who hate him. Show him what "real penetration is maybe"? Only a joke of course, but we canÂ’t go on watching a team that thinks possession is better than scoring goals. Surely?

Of course we have no divine right to win. I think, though, we have the right to expect players who appear to care and a manager with the backbone to deal with them when they donÂ’t.

Also, there is quite a difference between a "hate campaign", and thinking that Martinez is a poor coach who isnÂ’t fit to manage our club.

All of the determined and defiant defence of Señor Martinez, even in the face of woefully abject mediocrity, comes across very much like Neville Chamberlain walking off a plane waving a piece of paper – "I know things will get better next season, he understands now, I believe we will play football with a purpose!"

The problem is: "fool me once then shame on you, fool me twice then shame on me." As soon as we got to 40 points, the tippy-tippy nonsense is brought back in. The players might take a chunk of the blame for playing with their flip-flops on, but why as a manager do you allow a lack of desire and effort to become acceptable?

The current crop of players are far more comfortable playing quick and direct on the counter, how weÂ’ve been performing best recently. Why change it for anything other than an ego trip, based on this continental based philosophy of footballing utopia? In plain non-phenomilalised English, it doesnÂ’t work!

Trevor, correct me if IÂ’m wrong, but I believe you have said previously on TW you played football at a professional or semi-professional level, playing with or against some great Everton players of the past.

I mention this because, if correct, you – possibly uniquely on TW – possess a genuine insight into the inner workings and dynamics of a professional football club.

Now I appreciate you played in a different era which cannot compare directly to the multi-million pound professionalism of todayÂ’s PL, but I think itÂ’s fair to say expectancy and demands on the performance and professionalism of players and coaching staff alike in your era were still high.

I mention this because, presuming your very intimate and personal experience of a professional clubÂ’s dressing room, IÂ’m interested to know the dynamics and mind set of manager and players alike, particularly at this time of the season.

Personally, I think itÂ’s a nonsense when, as many like to claim, a manager Â’has lost the changing room,Â’ or a player or managerÂ’s Â’body language shows he hasnÂ’t a clue/doesnÂ’t want to play for the managerÂ’ (delete where applicable). ItÂ’s pure speculation, IMO.

This recent article on the Beeb seemingly supports my view:

Can a manager lose a dressing room?

In the article, a current player totally refutes the notion a manager loses the dressing room or that players deliberately play badly to get him sacked, or donÂ’t play to orders.

In the very final paragraph in the article, the player states: "When a side is performing badly, it is rarely down to just the manager, and thatÂ’s something people would do well to remember when they are wondering who to blame."

All of which rather undermines to a degree the view of many on TW about RM, his relationship with his players and who to blame for this disappointing season.

Anyway, my question to you, Trevo,r is: In your experience, at this end of the season, do players and managers alike, particularly those safe in mid-table with nothing to play for or at risk (other than next seasonÂ’s contract, perhaps)... do they lose the intensity they may have displayed at other times in the season when more is riding on the games?

Superficially, many would presume the answer is Â’YesÂ’ with Newcastle a current prime example of such an attitude, although there are many mitigating circumstances in that example.

If that is the case, then... who should be the chief motivator to ensure that doesn’t happen? That intensity, concentration, application, performance, desire – professionalism, if you will – doesn’t fall away, at any time of the season?

Yes, each player should have their own professional pride and motivation... but, as we have all experienced in life, be it at school, home, in the work place, wherever, there are always slackers who will happily let others do the work for them unless given a boot up the backside. And mostly that comes from the voice of authority, in the case of a football club, the manager.

IÂ’d be genuinely interested to hear your insights Trevor. Cheers!

IÂ’m not entirely sure if youÂ’re taking the piss or not, Trevor?? The only bit I agree with is that we were beaten by the better team.

Excuses, excuses... thatÂ’s what weÂ’ve had all season from our "messiah" and we donÂ’t need to be patronised by you also excusing one of the worst seasons of football in recent memory. I, along with many others, have been driven to distraction by the idiotic managerial decisions & comments, abysmal playing style, and complete lack of excitement displayed this season.

"Benteke is currently the best striker in the league"?? Are you kidding me?? Benteke is a half-decent player who has done nothing for most of the season (granted he was injured early on) and has played okay for the last couple of games. He is the main striker of a team languishing at the lower ends of the league who has struggled to score most of the season. Next you will be saying we suffered at the hands of one of the great midfielders of our generation in Cleverley!! FFS.

This season canÂ’t be excused because we donÂ’t have much money; it can be explained by a manager who is tactically inept, canÂ’t motivate a team, canÂ’t leave a winning side alone, and seems to think we fans will put up with any old shite he cares to utter. By saying he half-expected this performance, he should be sacked on the strength of that alone, aside from all the mind-numbing boring pointless excitement-free football we have witnessed for most of the season. Maybe the Board have been allowed to be so apathetic because of fans like you, Trevor, who are prepared to accept poor to mediocre football and make pathetic attempts of excuses to defend that shite when other fans dare to speak out against it.

We demand far better than what we have witnessed this season and we donÂ’t require an apologist like yourself to try and mask the obvious truths which is this is just not good enough. We other fans are not stupid or blind, we donÂ’t need any propaganda like the drivel you have posted.

We all hope we will be better next season. LetÂ’s face it, we surely couldnÂ’t be any worse. But what if we are not?

The real question should be: How do we get better?

We need the board and the manager to show some ambition. But will they? Sadly I very much doubt it

Whilst we have the fans to be a top Premier League club, sadly we do not have the chairman, directors, or manager to do so. More suffering is on the cards for all of us because there is no sign it is going to get any better than this.

Kenwright seems quite happy to finish mid-table and to go along with the utter crap that comes out of our brain-dead manager's mouth every week.

A loser mentality seeps throughout the club, beginning at the board. The acceptance of second best or valiant failure must be eradicated.

Have we won a game playing two wingers?

I donÂ’t get MartinezÂ’s obsession with playing 1 winger. I think itÂ’s bizarre considering the 4-2-3-1 formation he uses. He still doesnÂ’t know his best team and heÂ’s 2 years into the job.

Villa were not "Brilliant", Trevor. they were the beneficiaries of two gifts in the first half, goals they didnÂ’t have to work very hard for. it was enough to have Villa Park rocking which in turn had the players working overtime.

We, on the other hand, were desperate, we defended poorly, we were unforgivably careless with our passing and we offered very little attacking threat (any of this sound familiar?) The biggest disappointment was our manager’s lack of ideas. Everyone could see the Villa players were working harder and that the game was slipping away, but he did nothing – not until it was too late anyway.

I do wish people would avoid using the word Â’hateÂ’. It seems to be creeping into so many threads. IÂ’ve been a long time critic of Martinez, but "hate" him???

Roberto Martinez is a charming man, his overly positive public persona can be tiresome, but I would love to sit with him and have a few beers. ItÂ’s not a "hate campaign", Trevor. Many people think heÂ’s out of his depth, thatÂ’s why they are calling for him to be removed.

Evertonians in my experience are realistic. They know we are not going to win the league, but they would like us to be competing at the right end of the table and they do expect to be entertained from time to time. One entertaining performance against the Mancs cannot disguise the fat that we have been a desperately miserable watch in at least 30 of the other 34 games.

Some people are spending everything they have to follow this team. At what stage do you think itÂ’s alright for them to say Â’enoughÂ’?

Trevor, I donÂ’t think itÂ’s a Â’hateÂ’ campaign. ItÂ’s a combination of those of us who thought we were on to something last season who feel let down and those of us who never liked him or never wanted him venting their spleens. I think that even those who donÂ’t like him found themselves hoping last summer.

Villa were given a two-goal lead by a team incapable of coming from behind. They took advantage very well. They had a commanding centre-half and centre-forward and two midfielders happy to go forwards.

Brilliant? No. Did the basics well? Yes. And we didnÂ’t. ThatÂ’s what concerns me as itÂ’s happening regularly.

Darren @ 34: Thanks for that. Â’HateÂ’ and Â’hatersÂ’ are used far too often lately. Take Steven Naismith for instance... Lovely fella, tries his very hardest at all times, great charity work etc etc etc, but when all is said and done the guy is a terrible footballer. I doubt very much that anyone Â’hatesÂ’ him at all..... heÂ’s just not very good.

To be fair to Naismith, heÂ’s a striker not a CM, he might've had more success if he was played in that position. He did score some goals earlier in the season and I blame Roberto for messing with his head.

Lukaku always benefits from having a strike partner, all that was abandoned against Villa and we got battered again, a familiar story.

Apparently the first half was a wake up call according to captain Jags. Not really mate, where you been all season?

As much as I like to fantasize about us scoring for fun and winning games, the harsh reality is we havenÂ’t looked like a decent football side for most of the season. Unless we get some decent players in the summer, how is Martinez going to turn this around?

How he can trust this set of players again next season?

Ross, exactly right. ItÂ’s 4-2-3-1 but with two defensive midfielders who canÂ’t pass, and a Number 10 who isnÂ’t creative. If you play two natural widemen, youÂ’ve got no way of getting the ball to them. So Martinez plays one out-and-out winger with an Osman or Barkley on the other side, leaving the team unbalanced.

It is very easy to fix this team. A new keeper, a creative deep-lying midfielder, and a real Number 10 and weÂ’d be fine. Martinez seems determined to create the most boring Everton side imaginable though. McCarthy, Barry & Naismith are just like watching paint dry.

Who actually wrote out a team sheet and thought Â’that will be a good midfield threeÂ’? ItÂ’s a joke... any idiot can look at that and see they couldnÂ’t create a goal between them if they played all day.

Even though we have been enjoying a mini-revival which included an impressive win over Man Utd, we have still looked very poor as we have all season.

I hear now that we are being linked with Sully Muntari who plays for the worst Milan team in living memory and is 30 years old. Along with being linked with Charlie Austin and Tom Cleverly I think that this is the last straw. We have already got half a dozen old or not good enough players on our books please donÂ’t buy anymore.

I really think that we are doomed to mid-table mediocrity unless something really radical happens. I feel sorry for the younger supporters who will probably never witness the great Everton teams that I have been lucky enough to see.

Andrew, Martinez (along with the Everton board and current first team) do not think big enough. Cleverley, Naismith, Kone and McGeady is a front four a relegation side would have, yet Martinez is quite happy to court these players and the Board is happy with mere survival.

All season weÂ’ve been told by the players as well basically to stop moaning because weÂ’re not going to relegated. Every aspect of the club other than the fans are a disgrace.

Dave Ganley @28. For me your first line says it all about the OP.

Trevor honestly answer me this. How many games have you enjoyed this season? IÂ’ll tell you how many I've enjoyed: 3. Man Utd home, Wolfsburg away and Young Boys away. The rest have been complete and utter shite and IÂ’m including wins against such luminaries as Villa, QPR and Burnley.

No one, and I mean no one, wants Martinez to fail because while he struggles it means the team isnÂ’t winning enough games and no one wants that do they? We all want to be winning games. Obviously it cant happen to any side but I think you get my gist.

Trevor, while I normally respect your views it looks like categorically youÂ’ve been run out of town on this one. And I'd strongly urge you to read Dave Ganley's excellent post (28) which got it just about spot on. IÂ’m no Martinez hater, I just canÂ’t stand losing and then listening to the drivel that pours from his mouth.