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Martinez: Stay or Go?

by   |   17/05/2015  Comments (238)  jump

[Editor's Note: This has been moved here from the Matchday thread]

The fans who think RM should go have set out their reasons on numerous occasions. reasons such as in their opinion, poor team selection, too slow style of play, strange formations, poor transfer market dealings, frequent contrary comments by the manager.

In other words they have set out the evidence and expressed an opinion.

The response in the main from those who want RM to stay is generally to make some sort of direct personal attack, or a more subtle negative generalisation about the poster who has criticised RM. In other words no football related reasons are used to support RMs tenure.

How about the supporters of RM actually setting out some reasons why they think he’s a good manager? Such as what he’s good at and why he’s better than others at whatever it maybe.

This reminds me of the pro- and anti-Moyes argument except the pro Moyes fans used to set out an argument why they thought he should stay (pragmatism, got results, exceeded expectations in league position, good transfer dealings) whilst those who thought he should go often just used to say he was ginger, dour and loved by BK, in other words, no football related reasons.

So come on Martinez fans let’s here your argument for him staying. I can’t think of any, but presumably there must be some otherwise you’d want him gone too.

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Reader Comments (238)

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Paul Tran
1 Posted 17/05/2015 at 17:25:15
Andy, thereÂ’s a simple case for MartinezÂ’s dismissal - poor football, poor league position, poor team selection.

That simple case is often exaggerated with spurious statistics, selective quotations and quick dismissal of anything positive. It makes for entertaining discussion, without advancing the case. YouÂ’re right, it was similar under Moyes, though I hope I and many others articulated a similarly rational case for him going. I was just as appalled at the personal nonsense thrown at Moyes as I am with that chucked at Martinez.

IÂ’d sack Martinez at the end of the season. If I was making a case for him, IÂ’d point to the league table last season, which I think was down to him strengthening the side in the right areas and generally seeing out games better than his predecessorÂ’s teams. IÂ’d argue that this season was his first proper arse-kicking as a manager, he struggled with it and may come out of it stronger. IÂ’d argue that thereÂ’s a good manager in Martinez, if he can figure out the difference between what he wants and what works.

ThatÂ’s how IÂ’d put the case and itÂ’s what IÂ’m consoling myself with, as IÂ’m sure heÂ’s going to be here next season.

Steven Jones
2 Posted 17/05/2015 at 17:54:46
Andy - so you canÂ’t think of any... well that counts you out as credible balanced commentator.

I do get fed up with people that create a negative atmosphere by being detractors rather than being supporters.

I was one of those that was shouting down the boo boy detractors of Terry Darracott - who was a mediocre full back that had a bad spell with balls going off into the main stand rather than to a blue shirt. He eventually came good and was a bit of a cult hero because of the flack he got.

The same with HK1 - blind faith and willpower got that pass back latched onto by Inchy and off we went.

RM signed and yesterday blooded a future England CB and nursed an emerging talent in Stones. The defence is looking in safe hands for the future.

The U18s are doing very well and I believe that no Everton manager would have persuaded a potential world talent such as Lukaku to come to Everton. He has now 20 goals this season and could be going to 25 next as he matures.

RM’s persistence with Barkley is impressing me too – next season we will see the benefit. Martinez has already identified a Number 10 as the next piece of the jigsaw.

I for one forgive errors as long as I see progress and I can definitely see that in several players. Besic will take over from Barry and the spine will be youthful and strong.

Dave Abrahams
3 Posted 17/05/2015 at 18:21:46
Paul,

IÂ’m pretty much in the same mind as yourself, I think he has had a terrible season and if he was dismissed I donÂ’t think he could have any complaints. I then think back to last season and how great and positive it was to go the game; such disappointment this season with the reasons you gave.

I will be renewing my season ticket with mixed feelings, but feel that Martinez canÂ’t be as bad next season as he has been this one, can he?

Roger Helm
4 Posted 17/05/2015 at 18:14:42
If I was making the case to keep Martinez, IÂ’d say that to sack him after one poor season is premature. Traditionally, weÂ’ve not been a club which sacks managers all the time. Even when we finished down in the bottom half, Moyes wasnÂ’t sacked.

He is a young manager and I think has the capacity to learn and change. The second half of the season saw us playing more direct, perhaps after representations from the senior players.

He has after all a record of achievement – promotion, FA Cup. Would we get anyone better? We are not exactly the most attractive option for a top manager with a track record.

Of course it is nice to play Football Manager and say what he should have done. But talking to other fans, I donÂ’t think any manager is really popular, unless the team is on a winning streak. In fact most of them say that Martinez and BK are Good Things.

And of course it would be expensive to terminate his contract. HeÂ’s not going anyway, so itÂ’s all academic. LetÂ’s hope that he has learnt from this term and that the summer and next season, without the EL distraction, is more successful.

(Off thread, check out the football-related BBC dramadoc Marvellous, on i-Player or perhaps Youtube, if you want to raise your spirits after the ToffeeWeb negativity.)

Dave Abrahams
5 Posted 17/05/2015 at 18:44:36
Roger, agree with you about" Marvellous" it was one of the best things on TV last year, made you laugh out loud and also brought a tear to your eyes, based on a true story of a handicapped Stoke City supporter, well worth a watch.
Christopher Wallace
6 Posted 17/05/2015 at 18:41:45
Steve,

I have my own opinions on how the team/players/manager can improve. IÂ’m also interested in how others see it.

I may not agree with their views, or I may see them as better than my own, and take them on board.

Of course, it wonÂ’t have any effect on the team, but itÂ’s certainly better than "Barkley is fuckin shite" or "Martinez should fuck off".

IÂ’d rather hear, for example, "we should sell Barkley and get so and so in" or who they would like in as manager, or how we should have approached the game, change of tactics, etc.

I know there are plenty of insightful punters on here, so maybe I should just focus on their posts and ignore the monotonous merchants of doom.

Andy Walker
7 Posted 17/05/2015 at 18:31:44
Steven, at least you have put forward some pro arguments. I donÂ’t happen to agree with any of them, but thatÂ’s just my opinion. The fact that I donÂ’t though doesnÂ’t make me inferior to you or my views any less valid, in your first paragraph you just had to resort to exactly the point I was making, you couldnÂ’t resist could you? That is, donÂ’t agree with a poster, make some personal attack about their credibility.

Like it or not, I donÂ’t agree with your points and so I still donÂ’t see any valid reasons for him to stay. Why exactly do you have to have a balanced view of Martinez in order to be valid? You point out all positives yet no negatives, is that balanced? Of course not. ItÂ’s perfectly reasonable to have an clear unilateral opinion on any matter. I donÂ’t believe in capital punishment, I donÂ’t have a balanced view on it though.

So to your points, firstly Terry Darracott. I used to watch him too, I have a very different opinion of his footballing abilities to you, so the idea he was universally rated it simply not true.

I donÂ’t believe that another Oxford moment will suddenly and miraculously turn our side from average/poor to brilliant. ThatÂ’s dreamland in my book.

Galloway has played one PL game and I thought he was at fault for their goal too. Stones is great, bought by Moyes, I canÂ’t see any credit that can be given to Martinez for him, heÂ’d be great in any team.

Lukaku has 20 goals this season, you know as well as I though that half have been in the Europa League. I donÂ’t think he is anything like a 㿈m striker, far too lazy, with a terrible first touch. Good with the ball at his feet running at the defence and a decent finisher, but really, 㿈m? when you compare that to the amounts spent on other top strikers it poor vfm. IÂ’ll side with Mourinho on him, enough said as far as IÂ’m concerned.

As for Barkley, one month Martinez says he has all the attributes needed and will be the best English player ever, the next month he describes exactly the same attributes but says we donÂ’t have them in any of our players so we need a new no. 10. A complete contradiction. As for persisting with Barkley, this clearly has not benefited the team, whether it has benefited the player himself time will tell, but I see no reason why it will have done, in fact I think itÂ’s damaged his confidence if anything. Another bad call from Martinez in my opinion.

Besic is actually the one player who possibly may come good, so IÂ’ll remain non committal on him. Hey thatÂ’s not negative! IÂ’ll go for a lie down.

Joe Foster
8 Posted 17/05/2015 at 19:44:50
He should go. We should never have employed a manager whoÂ’s team was relegated (I mean really, what club would do this?) and then said he was not the man to bring them back up. That was probably the most truthful thing I have heard him say.

If you want future and present Toffees to be bored to death, then RM is your go to guy.

Martinez out.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
9 Posted 17/05/2015 at 19:38:13
I was a bit reluctant to post this Talking Point, but it does epitomize the dilemma we have as a site for trying to be all we can to all Evertonians. Do we really need yet another post on this topic? I think not... but AndyÂ’s post demonstrates more clearly than anything how the confirmation bias works. He asks for a case to be made in favour of Martinez... while loading the scales with his not-so-hidden agenda.

Take this statement: "no football related reasons are used to support RMs tenure." To me, that is so astounding, it should have meant canning the entire post. At a stroke, it invalidates any of numerous football-related reasons that have been provided previously on many threads. To prove the point, IÂ’m just going to give you one that has been repeated on other threads many times: his success in guiding the team to their best ever points total in the Premier League era.

As a few already stated above, the discussion is moot: Martinez appears to be staying with us next season. Yes, this season has in far too many ways been a huge disappointment. But we start again in August, with him as manager.

Some are requesting that we must therefore all support him. I wouldn’t go that far as, if you don’t like him, and if you don’t want him as the manager, you’re entitled to that opinion. But, while he is the manager, it might be a better approach to accept it as a fact — rather than railing against it as some seem intent on doing, at seemingly every opportunity, and on almost every thread.

Enough already!

Dean Adams
10 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:07:37
He speaks English.
Brian Denton
11 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:11:42
Joe Foster "We should never have employed a manager whoÂ’s team was relegated (I mean really, what club would do this?)"

Erm, how about Everton? And if I need to explain to you when we did it (CLUE: that manager went on to win us our only trophy in the last 28 years) then you donÂ’t know your history.

Jesus wept.

Graham Mockford
12 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:05:51
Michael

Quite right he isnÂ’t going anywhere, Bill Kenwright is not going to sack a manager who has finished 5th and 10th/11th, the last 10 years should prove that and in many ways thatÂ’s probably no bad thing.

This season has been hugely disappointing but in the end itÂ’s just ended up being mediocre as opposed to disastrous, although nine games ago it was looking a whole lot worse.

The great thing about being a football supporter is, come August, the clocks are set to zero and we can live in hope again, although that state of mind doesnÂ’t come easily to all.

If you were looking for a case for the defence of Martinez, he still has a win ratio of 46% which is higher than Moyes achieved and is even better than HK after two seasons. Patience can be a tough thing when you are watching us roll over at Stoke but maybe it might just work out.

Whatever your view, he will be here come August.

Ian Bennett
13 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:15:17
The second album is always difficult.

LetÂ’s see what the summer dealings look like and the first ten games. My gut tells me be prepared to be disappointed, but I am prepared to wait and see.

Andy Crooks
14 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:14:30
At the start of this season I wrote a piece stating that I thought we had a chance of Champions League qualification. The fears I had when Martinez was appointed appeared groundless.

Each week from the start of last season, I expected it to turn round. Unfortunately, all the fears that I had have been justified a year on. I donÂ’t want to repeat what I believe are his faults. For me, the defeat at Southampton was the final straw, a truly, utterly inept, clueless coaching performance. It seemed to me that he was totally out of his depth and nothing, absolutely nothing, makes me believe otherwise.

However, heÂ’s here for a while and I hope that his supporters are right. I will happily eat humble pie all season if they are.

Patrick Murphy
15 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:18:15
At this moment in time, it does look as if Roberto will start next season with us but I wouldnÂ’t be at all surprised if he doesnÂ’t and somebody like Mark Hughes or Steve McClaren were being lined up to replace him. Much will depend on which players want to leave in the summer as IÂ’m still not convinced that all of the first-team squad are 100% behind him.

One of his biggest mistakes in my opinion is his need to big every player up to such a point that it becomes meaningless and adds pressure when there is little need to do so. Without doubt, the results in the last nine games have been on an upward curve and would if stretched over 38 games give Everton FC a total of some 70+ points, but the 28 games which preceded that run were mostly horrible to watch and only one game in this little run set the pulses racing.

I also don’t believe that Roberto learns from his mistakes; he didn’t at Wigan and many of his utterances at Goodison are just the same type of utterances he made at the DW Stadium. Speaking to a few long-term Evertonians some who attend Goodison and some who don’t, most of them wouldn’t shed a tear if he was to leave and nobody from that small group wants him to stay – for whatever reason he just doesn’t seem to suit a fair portion of the fan-base and that has to be a negative regardless of the form of the team.

James Marshall
16 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:38:35
WeÂ’re going to finish 10th or 11th so heÂ’s going nowhere - Moyes finished 17th in his second season, Alex Ferguson struggled at Man Utd in his second season, so history tells us itÂ’s nothing to worry about.

WeÂ’re not a top 4 club so our board wonÂ’t fire him for this seasonÂ’s poor showing in the league.

Mark McDonald
17 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:07:26
I am sure RM shall agree with us all – it has been an indifferent season to the last and simply not good enough; but as manager only he can put it right.

I say, give him the opportunity to rebuild/improve the side as it certainly does need improvements in some areas, highlighted on these forums all season. I have previously expressed my views on which players should stay and who should go so I shall eagerly wait to see what he does pre-season and in the transfer market.

He has no World Cup distractions this time so letÂ’s see what he does and reassess the situation before the start of the season and at the January transfer window when we may have to look at the situation far more seriously depending on our league position. But BK is not going to do anything pre-season other than hopefully providing RM with the funds to buy the players he wants

Finishing 10th, if we finish 10th, it is simply not good enough for our club!

Andy Meighan
18 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:26:01
I suppose like a lot of posters on here IÂ’m fed up with the season weÂ’ve had but, in the main, for me, at one point, it looked like we were never going to win a game or actually score goals. And this was down to the manager and his stubborn refusal to change.

The dropping of Robles, playing Barry at centre back before Distin at Hull etc. I could go on but IÂ’m sure you know where IÂ’m coming from. IÂ’d say 85 % of me wants him gone, while the other 15% would love him to prove me wrong. I just canÂ’t see him turning it round.

The Swansea defeat in the league cup, the first 80 mins against West Ham in the FA Cup tie at Goodison, the Kiev away game... they keep coming back to haunt me – plus the turgid league performances: Hull, home and away; Stoke ditto; Villa away; etc. We’d all love him to turn it round but I just can’t see it happening.

Obviously thereÂ’s not a prayer heÂ’s going because, as others have pointed out, weÂ’re not a sacking club and I am actually proud of that fact. The last couple of months have given me a little bit of hope because itÂ’s proved we can actually go on winning runs. The Villa game was poor but the Sunderland game was a fluke result.

It all depends on his summer signings and at least he has identified a playmaker as a priority but obviously thereÂ’s other areas need strengthening and letÂ’s hope he gets it right. An interesting summer ahead... but an important one for our beleaguered manager.

Joe Foster
19 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:56:08
Still no posts for why people think he is a good manager and should stay.
Mark Riding
20 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:01:37
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
Paul Hewitt
21 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:03:04
He should be given a third season. IÂ’ve not been a lover of Martinez this season some of the football has been terrible, but there are signs that we are getting better.A better pre-season and some good signings and who knows top 6 again.
David Greenwood
22 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:15:44
Great pic Mark. PH is spot on. A good summer and evidence that RM has learned from this season and we will be fine. If he cant learn from what he has got wrong this season he will be gone by the end of October, no question.
Ross Edwards
23 Posted 17/05/2015 at 20:50:22
HeÂ’ll be here next season. WeÂ’re all hoping Â’he comes goodÂ’, thatÂ’s the few arguments his supporters can come up with, and the fact that we finished 5th.

The case againat him? This season weÂ’ve seen it in abundance. The performances, the poor results, the tactical errors.

Firstly tactics:
1) The decision to drop Robles just as we were looking solid and he was finding form, 3 clean sheets in a row to reinstate Howard despite him being a total liability for the majority of this season, directly responsible for the loss of several goals and points.

2) The endless passing at the back, the turgid, toothless rubbish weÂ’ve been subjected to for most of the season, which not only has bored most fans rigid and taken the enjoyment out of going to watch us, but is so easy to set up against. How many times have we seen smaller teams come to Goodison, set up for a draw and get a result? Leicester, Swansea, Stoke, Hull, West Brom, Palace and Sunderland to name a few. They arenÂ’t simple freak results that we should have simply shrugged off, it shows how RM has no plan B and our style of play is toothless.

3) Sticking to his favourites. Barry, Howard to name two. How can we possibly take him seriously when he claims to be building for the future when he continues to pick a 35 year old in goal, a 33 year old yellow card waiting to happen in midfield, whilst also claiming that Hibbert, who has barely played in 2 years and should have been released years ago, is still in his future plans along with the injury prone 33 year old Pienaar? ItÂ’s nonsense.

4) Playing Alcaraz against Kiev. What a shocking performance that day by him, and a diabolical decision to pick him in the first place, costing us a quarter final place and a chance of silverware.

Results and performances:

Hull and Southampton are my 2 examples of many I could choose from. Absolutely shocking performances in both games.

And, finally, his endless, embarrassing ramblings. Every time he opens his mouth, he loses even more credibility amongst the fans.

He should have gone after Hull. But the fact that we have a board full of unambitious, incompetent morons and the fact that he has met their basic expectations of top half means that weÂ’re stuck with him for another season.

I want him to do well, and I hope he does, but weÂ’re supposedly a club with ambitions of playing Champions League football, would a club of our level, like Spurs for example, give him another season? No.

I want him to go, but he wonÂ’t. So I will be behind him this summer and the beginning of next season, but if we start poorly, he has to go.

I donÂ’t have a vendetta against him, nor am I part of a Â’vitriolic lynch mobÂ’ either.

Kevin Tully
24 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:00:28
I like a challenge, so here goes (Can I just say, anything I write below does not mean I am happy with MartinezÂ’s performance this season. I support EFC - not Martinez F.C.)

1. Transfers - I would never judge any manager on free, loans or nominal fee transfers. If you want to kick off about Mcgeady, Atsu or Barry wearing our shirt, then look to the Board as to why we are in this market. Kone has been the worst signing, but his injury looks like it has done for him. Who knows if he would have been any good or not? The money signings, Lukaku, McCarthy, Besic and hopefully Lennon will prove good signings i.e - all worth more than we paid for them.

2. In his first season we achieved our record points haul in the P.L. In MoyesÂ’s best ever season of 65 points and Champions League qualification, we lost 13 games - if we donÂ’t lose against Spurs, we will have lost 14 games in what seems a disasterous season. The draws and individual mistakes have cost us. In my opinion - 10 points (and European qualification) have been lost due to our Â’keeper having the worst season since he arrived.

3. Transition. We are witnessing the end of Distin. Pienaar, Howard and Osman. Baines also seems to less effective due to an injury heÂ’s been carrying. These players carried this team for many a season, we canÂ’t just go out and buy a new midfield. We have to integrate the likes of Barkley and Besic. They wonÂ’t be instant hits in this League, it will take time.

4. IÂ’ve seen us play Arsenal off the park at their place and ours, weÂ’ve twatted Man Utd in 3 of the last 4 meetings, and weÂ’ve witnessed some great performances in Europe. ThereÂ’s enough in those games to persuade me to give the manager another half a season at least.

5. I want to see us play football on the deck. Hopefull crosses into the box may very well be exciting, but thatÂ’s all it is - hopefully someone will get their head on the end of a cross. We over complicate things at present, but it may click given time. Ask the Utd fans about 76 crosses in a game. Which they drew. They couldnÂ’t believe what they were watching under OFM.

6. What top manager is going to take these free signings, loanees, sprinkled with young inexperienced players such as Barkley and Stones, and turn us into a C.L. outfit? IÂ’m listening for names, but canÂ’t hear anyone giving a viable alternative. Sam Allardyce would get us into 8th, no doubt about that. He will just use exactly the same methods as OFM - 4-5-1, balls down the line, and long diagonals. ItÂ’s football by numbers, but it will be effective with good players. The trouble is, when it comes to a big game, the passing side will always win.

7. After 2 full seasons with us, maybe Martinez has actually improved as a manager? If he hasnÂ’t learnt anything this season, then thereÂ’s frankly nothing down for him.

So, for all those reasons, IÂ’m prepared to give him another season at our club. If we are witnessing disjointed tactics, and obvious player unrest next season - he has to go by Christmas.

Dean Adams
25 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:43:11
Kevin Tully

Wise words.

David Greenwood
26 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:52:18
Nailed it Kev.
Gavin Johnson
27 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:39:52
KT - I wasnÂ’t going to post on this thread because it seems a bit daft when Martinez will be Everton manager next season. But I think youÂ’ve made the most balanced pervasive post as to why some people want to give Martinez more time to get it right.

IÂ’ve not heard anyone with this viewpoint say they want him to have beyond Xmas, which is telling, that nobody is Martinez FC and we are all Everton FC and some just want to give Martinez the benefit of the doubt.

Record points tally, beating you United 3 in 4, playing Arsenal off the park all seems reasonable reasons to me.

Paul Andrews
28 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:56:57
1. A record total of Premier League points last season

2. The style of football he is trying to implement will need 3 seasons at least and changes in personnel from the squad he inherited. The style of play will become quicker and played at a higher tempo the more players he brings in who are comfortable with the ball at their feet.

3. The youth teams are starting to perform well under his regime. We will develop more players for the first team squad over the coming years.

4. He has form for actually winning a trophy.

A very good first season, albeit set against the relatively poor season this time, earns him the chance for a third season.

Terry Murphy
29 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:26:54
Mark Riding - How did you get the photo into this thread??? IÂ’d love to see a ToffeeWeb caption contest - thereÂ’s some right funny comments made on here at times.
Andy Crooks
30 Posted 17/05/2015 at 22:04:23
Good post, Kevin # 24. I happen to believe that the negatives brought about by Martinez greatly outweigh what you mention. I think it is vital that he goes, however, thatÂ’s a spirited defence of him.
Paul Ferry
31 Posted 17/05/2015 at 22:28:42

Kevin Tully has written the post I had in mind to write. Thanks. ItÂ’s very powerful. I agree with every single word in it.

People who ’support’ Martinez – not my word – have given plenty of reasons for doing so and everything that Kevin has said has been said before but perhaps not as eloquently and in a single post.

I would add:

(1) That there will be no repeat of last yearÂ’s post-season that some believe is a prime reason for this season. We have some decent looking games set up and the gaffer is going nowhere.

(2) That we need to give him another window for the simple reason that he will be in charge next season and hereÂ’s that word Â’hopeÂ’: in what will be a time of transition this summer I for one am looking forward to seeing how we shape up for next season.

(3) No Europa League. DonÂ’t get me wrong; IÂ’d rather be in it than out of it. But we will be Europa free next season and given all that has been said on all sides of the question about the impacts for good or bad of participation in 2014-15 this third season is the key one for me for judging Martinez (he seemed to do rather well in the season without Europa, if memory serves).

(4) Unlike some, I think telling Distin where to go in January was spot on and evidence of a strong personality than I though if – IF – 1 per cent of what we have been told about him and his sidekick Samuel are true.

(5) Individual issues remain – Garbutt, Distin – but from what I can see team spirit seems to be on the up – if it was ever down – and the idea that Martinez has lost the dressing room or the players don’t want to play for him seems unfounded to me at any rate. This gives me a little more confidence looking at next year.

(6) Kevin touches on this, but Martinez has shown now that he can change things and that he does have alternative plans. Quite frankly, I donÂ’t care one bit whether that comes from player pressure or elsewhere, IÂ’m just glad it happened. The Man-Utd game was for me extremely revealing watching Martinez comprehensively outthink one of the big names in the game. He has the ability and capacity to do this and I want to give him the chance to do so more often.

Like Kevin, I am also deeply aware of the gafferÂ’s flaws (and am not prepared to tread lightly over them) but for the reasons he posted and the six above I truly believe that Martinez has earned a third season and like all of you if things donÂ’t go to plan in Europa free 2015-16 I will change my position and perspective accordingly.

Dick Fearon
32 Posted 17/05/2015 at 21:45:28
Criteria I use to judge a Martinez is based on team and individual player performance.
Our position in the league table points to team failure and apart from Naismith no player has improved on last years standard with most going backward.
His concentration on possession at the expense of a more adventurous style was boring. His timing and deployment of substitutes has too often been mystifying and rarely successful.
His pre season organization was shambolic and resulted in below par fitness levels.
Some of his signings and loanees were second rate, too old or injury prone or a combination of all three.
His frequent statements bear little resemblance to facts.
He has even criticised other managers for tactics they used
to successfully counter his own.
If that is not enough to cast doubt on his ability to run a club like Everton I could add another list of faults.
Colin Glassar
34 Posted 17/05/2015 at 22:38:09
Even more hats off to Kevin Tully. ItÂ’s hard to refute many, if any, of AndyÂ’s observations but Kevin has.

This season has been awful. Even us Martinez apologists accept that but, IMO, he earned enough brownie points last season to be given another chance. We are, if anything, a fair club to our managers and if he screws up again next season then by all means sack him. If not, then humble pie will be on the menu.

Dick Fearon
35 Posted 17/05/2015 at 23:01:25
David, 33, His predecessor was reportedly paid in excess of 4 million pound pa. I guess MartinezÂ’s salary would be similar.

For that kind of money I expect a top man and not a trainee.

Paul Holmes
36 Posted 17/05/2015 at 23:03:47
After his first season I thought great Everton are back, but after this disaster heÂ’s got me baffled.

He does talk some shite after games which gets me to question my own judgement of how I thought we played - I thought we were rubbish, he says we played great?

Next season is the decider for me, one great season, one shit season. Are we the new Everton or Wigan? 2015/16 will tell us!

Jim Jennings
37 Posted 17/05/2015 at 23:00:23
What Kevin Tully said, plus the players seem to be "playing for him" again even if confidence has been dangerously fragile at times.

Who knows, perhaps the lack of harmony in the dressing room earlier in the season really was down to one or two who have either left or are out of contract in about two weeks.

Trevor Peers
38 Posted 17/05/2015 at 23:09:15
I tend to agree with Dick, when you ask the question has Roberto moved us forward this season ? The answer has to be NO. In fact we have gone backwards. You can go into the reasons why, probably being in the EL hasnÂ’t helped and his obsession with possession football for all those months was difficult to understand.
We know Roberto will most likely be our manager for next season, so of course we have to back him and the team. But he remains under close scrutiny. Hopefully he can make a few shrewd signings and we can prosper.
Bill Gall
39 Posted 17/05/2015 at 23:20:17
As he will most probably be here next season the negative and positive comments seem to balance out each other. The only thing that I pick up on, is people on the positive side, whoÂ’s major argument is that he may learn by his mistakes next season. Why do a club the size and reputation of Everton sign a manager who is allowed to make mistakes, with a vote of confidence to continue next season? When you sign a Premier League manager who has been in the Premier League for 4 seasons you would have expected him to have learned from his mistakes by now.
Chris Jones
40 Posted 18/05/2015 at 00:42:22
Like many, IÂ’ve been horrified by the quality of much of the football weÂ’ve played and by the managerÂ’s decisions this season. As for the press conferences, the less said the better (literally!). But football management isnÂ’t an exact science and there are plenty of examples of clubs with deeper pockets and bigger-name managers than ours having shite seasons. Look at MoyesÂ’ first three full seasons: 7th, 17th, then 4th.

RMÂ’s had a good one and a bad one. IÂ’m for giving the bloke Â’til Christmas before my own hysteria sets in.

John Daley
41 Posted 18/05/2015 at 01:02:47
Plenty of people saying they hope Martinez learns from his mistakes. IÂ’d be satisfied if he would just learn from his successes.

When heÂ’s done something different by tweaking his tactics or switching up personnel and itÂ’s paid off with a good performance and result, stick with it for a while and see where it takes us, rather than immediately reverting back to type.

When he surprised everyone by playing a deep lying midfield pairing of Barkley and Besic against QPR it worked a treat, injected more impetus and pace to our play, looked like it could kickstart BarkleyÂ’s season whilst adding another string to our bow beyond the overly defensive McCarthy/Barry axis. Next game, itÂ’s shelved and never been seen since.

When weÂ’ve gone into games with the deliberate intention of inviting teams onto us and playing on the counter (Wolfsburg, Lyon, Man United), itÂ’s seemed to suit the players at our disposal much more than a patient possession game and weÂ’ve reaped the rewards. Yet, it never sticks. The next game weÂ’re back trying to make all the running, looking to have the lions share of possession and make a breakthrough via patient probing, only to hit the buffers because the majority of our players donÂ’t possess the necessary skillset to subtly slice stubborn sides open. The RS went an entire season playing on the counter, breaking swiftly, and nearly sneaked the title. We canÂ’t keep it up for two games running even if weÂ’ve just got a great result off the back of it.

Victor Yu
42 Posted 18/05/2015 at 03:40:18
He stays as I donÂ’t see any better option at the moment (I doubt Klopp will be coming to us).

Matt Traynor
43 Posted 18/05/2015 at 03:27:31
Kevin #24 and John #41, excellent posts.
I wasnÂ’t going to bother with this when it was in the matchday thread, as it would be noise, but now itÂ’s got itÂ’s own thread:

"This reminds me of the pro- and anti-Moyes argument except the pro Moyes fans used to set out an argument why they thought he should stay (pragmatism, got results, exceeded expectations in league position, good transfer dealings) whilst those who thought he should go often just used to say he was ginger, dour and loved by BK, in other words, no football related reasons."

Excellent - just the standard of argument construction that has rendered this site a parody of itself, and seen many long-standing commentators retreat to observers (that is not a criticism of TW by the way). I wonÂ’t explain exactly what is wrong with that statement other than to say I had other reasons for wanting Moyes gone, and they were football and EFC related, and nothing personal.

Onto the question itself, I would have Martinez for another season. Reasons already explained more eloquently by others above, but also, given the pittance he has to work with, who else are we going to get?

Then again I suppose some of the FM fantasists on here think Klopp would come running... WeÂ’ll never get a world class manager under this board while itÂ’s run as a personal fiefdom. (And didnÂ’t I read somewhere Klopp had got a team relegated...?)

Darren Hind
44 Posted 18/05/2015 at 02:55:09
First of all its great to see the guys from the offside forum out in force to give a bit of balance with Pro Martinez views.... but try as I might, I canÂ’t agree with them.

Take KevinÂ’s post (24)

Kevin talks about Robbies transfer activities and assures us we would get more than we paid for the players Martinez has brought in. No Chance. He has spent north of 㿞 million. IÂ’m a fan of LukakuÂ’s, but would anybody spend even 㿀 million after seeing some of his performances this season ? I doubt it, same with Besic. Who is going to pay ٤m for a guy who cant displaces a seriously over-the-hill Barry ? Everton Managers have to come up trumps in the transfer market, but I believe we would be very lucky to recover 㿔M of the 㿢M he has spent.

Then there is the claim that Martinez should be given more time on the grounds we have beaten Man Utd 3 out of 4... Really ? I was delighted with both our wins last season, but IÂ’m also aware that beating TGTÂ’S Man Utd carried nowhere near the prestige of beating Fergies Man Utd...

And Arsenal? did we not better them at the Emirates the year before Martinez got here? And did we not play them off the park to a much greater degree a couple of years before that when only a last gasp deflection prevented PienaarÂ’s brilliant chip from being a richly deserved winner?

Throwing names like Big Sam in as if they are the only alternative is just plain scaremongering. There are numerous coaches out there who would have been able to get more out of this group of players. TGT took 8-9 years to give us a decent footballing side. Martinez has destroyed it in a season.

I sincerely hope PFÂ’s prediction that we will prepare better this season, but at this stage thatÂ’s all it is, a prediction. Martinez has his beliefs on how players should be prepared. Think he will alter them? I donÂ’t.

In the OP Andy throws down the Gauntlet. He challenges people to give their reasons as to why they want Martinez to stay. Well IÂ’m sorry, but if this is the case for the Defence, IÂ’m not sure the Prosecution needs to bother getting their kit on. most of the reasons seem to be based on hope rather than belief.

I recently stated that I would not be renewing my season ticket this time around. I donÂ’t know why I said it, its of no interest to anybody else, but I was amazed to see another two regular posters say exactly the same thing within three posts. The club is not banging any drums this year about season ticket sales... There is a very good reason for that. We are sliding, Guys. We are stuck with a less than useless board and you are backing a manager who doesnÂ’t seem to be able to halt the slide.

Look. Everyone who bothers posting on here must be a passionate Evertonian. Why else would they bother? And I would love you guys to be right. Lord knows eating a piece of humble pie would be a small price to pay to see us parade around the city with a trophy, or to witness the reopening of the School Of Science... but in my heart I canÂ’t help feeling you are nailing your colours to a cardboard mast.

Paul Ferry
45 Posted 18/05/2015 at 05:22:28
Top drawer classy post from Darren - 44 - and exactly the sort of sceptical Martinez (yet still wanting him to succeed fingers crossed but doubting) point of view that for me at any rate makes me wants me to sit down in The Winslow and simply debate - with DH in this case.

DarrenÂ’s critiques of Kevin are spot on because they are fair, reasoned, and come from the heart.

I really wish that Darren would renew but utterly understand the decision he has - I imagine very reluctantly - made.

My hunch is that Darren will lose money next season by spending more than this season ticket this season to watch each home game.

Paul Andrews
46 Posted 18/05/2015 at 05:49:21
Great to see the differences of opinion. Most of the posts giving reasoned opinion,some with just a gut feeling.

A very welcome change to the bickering that on occasion takes place when debating the pros and cons of the manager.

Sam Hoare
47 Posted 18/05/2015 at 05:44:26
IÂ’m pretty much on the fence but probably leaning more to the Darren Hind point of view than to the Kevin Tully one.

For me there is one good reason for him to stay.

Change.

2-3 months ago I was ready to see him out myself. We were trying the same thing over and over with the same bad results and it looked for all the world as though we had a manager who would put his own philosophy before the results of the club. This would be untenable. But then RM showed he IS capable of flexibility.

He mixed it up. He had us playing counter attacking, more direct football and the results over the last few months would have us on course for top 6 at least.

John Daley makes a good point that actually he still mixes it up too much and we could do with sticking to the counter attacking style but at least we are seeing more of it.

So long as he continues what he has practised over the last few months (to generally set the team up in a way that suits it, to break quickly and get Lukaku with isolated out of position defenders) then I think we will see a much better tomorrow than yesterday.

Jay Harris
48 Posted 18/05/2015 at 06:13:13
All I want to add is:

Past form as a manager

Players have got worse individually and collectively not better under him.

Poorest preseason in the history of the club

Changed all of Moyes fitness and preparation practises such that we cannot buy a clean sheet now from a defence that was historically top 4 standard.

Paid 㿢 million for 㿀 million worth of talent

Talks embarrassing shite every week

Appears to have had difference of opinion with a number of key senior players

Lack of motivational and tactical ability

Darryl Ritchie
49 Posted 18/05/2015 at 05:52:32
I like RM. HeÂ’s a likeable fella. After all thatÂ’s gone on this season and last, do I like him enough to manage my club next season?

It was mentioned by Dean Adams that he speaks English. Well, sort of...if he stuck to Spanish, and relied on interpreter, maybe he could avoid a few of the unintentionally painful quotes. Also, sometimes less is more. At times he should just stop talking! He has bad moments!

HeÂ’s stubborn. RM has the utmost confidence in his abilities as tactician. He will need to adjust a whole lot better than he did last season. When itÂ’s not working; when the starting 11 arenÂ’t playing as well heÂ’d hoped for; when the opposition have got it figured out; he needs to make changes in a timely fashion.

So far heÂ’s had one fairytale season and one that was a nail biter much longer than it shouldÂ’ve been.

I think he should be given another crack at it, but I also agree with Kevin Tully, it needs to be on a very short leash. The results need to be a lot more positive early, than they were this season. If not....bye bye!

Peter Barry
50 Posted 18/05/2015 at 07:26:18
Now would be a good time to introduce a Â’thumbs upÂ’ and Â’thumbs downÂ’ option with running totals for each posting so we can judge what the majority of TW members think of opposing postings. In my opinion that would give us a better understanding of what we are thinking in general as many people just read posts but donÂ’t comment themselves but might be persuaded to click a Â’thumbÂ’.
Colin Glassar
51 Posted 18/05/2015 at 08:32:41
Good point Peter re thumbs up and down. Too often too many people believe they are speaking on behalf of the majority when they mistakenly use the plural "we" rather than the singular "I".

No-one on here speaks for me, even though I agree with a few, I have my own voice and opinions. So please stop saying "we want him out" or "we wonÂ’t be buying STÂ’s for next season etc....."

I believe Martinez should stay for next season. I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I will back him and the team until proven otherwise.

Phil Walling
52 Posted 18/05/2015 at 08:16:07
Several fellow TWers have advised me to refrain from posting if IÂ’ve Â’nothing positive to say.Â’

Well, IÂ’ll shock them all by joining the STAY lobby! And the very positive reason I give for this is that I need him to remain in post in order to justify my decision to cancel my lounge membership and not to visit Goodison as long as heÂ’s in charge. Talk about cutting off my nose............!

All my reasons for so doing are detailed in this thread. I’ll look a proper nana if BK sacks him next week – as a mate suggested he will in a call to me last night!

Derek Thomas
53 Posted 18/05/2015 at 08:35:46
Not much on here yet to change my mind, IÂ’m still not convinced.

Sooner the better for me. Just for fairness IÂ’d give him until Halloween for any green shoots of recovery to appear, if not he can join Guy Fawkes on the Bonfire of history.

Aidy Dews
54 Posted 18/05/2015 at 08:42:33
Paul Andrews, good post mate.

Last season was the real us under Martinez and like you say for that record breaking season alone he deserves to keep his job.

WeÂ’re not a club for sacking managers and we have had it tough this season and performances havenÂ’t been great but weÂ’ve picked up slightly towards the end and got into mid table.

Martinez knows where weÂ’re lacking in the team and as highlighted it and wants to get 3 or 4 very good players in to improve the team/squad and hopefully get the players in that are going to help replicate they way that he wants us to play.

Last season we didnÂ’t play slowly and just pass for passing sake and we looked assured on the ball and attacked quickly and this season teams have sat and frustrated us and with confidence low from early seasons set backs and bad results we found it hard to play with a quick tempo and come up with ideas to break these teams down.

But hopefully in the summer, he gets the right players in, everyone comes back pre season with a clean slate, fresh and ready to go and we have a better pre season, get fit and start the season on the front foot and get off to a better start and have a better season!

Andrew Ellams
55 Posted 18/05/2015 at 09:10:19
A huge key to next season will be to see whether there is any significant level of improvement without the excuse | reason | hinderance (delete as appropriate) of the Europa League. IÂ’m a long way from being convinced that it has caused as many of this yearÂ’s issues as some may think.

We were falling apart defensively in August before the competition began for us, and Christmas was a disaster which was during the break from Europa.

Next season we have to go back to where we were last season, passing but quick, incisive and forwards. We have the attacking players to make that work and the addition of Lennon will only add to that.

My only wish for the end of this season is the potential scenario that the Villa win the cup and the Redshite finish 7th and qualify the via the Fair Play route and start their season on 2nd July.

Amit Vithlani
56 Posted 18/05/2015 at 11:10:32
I thoroughly enjoyed our first season under Martinez and his adoption of Everton and its traditions, his big club mentality of wanting to go toe to toe with the big clubs was very inspiring. We achieve lofty heights last season, and for the first time in 10 years I felt we belonged as a top 4 club.

This season has come as a crushing disappointment. But even during the depths of despair in December and January, I still felt Martinez could turn it around.

In my mind, the rot set in earnest in the away game to Stoke, the away game to Dynamo Kiev and was solidified by the performances against Villa and Sunderland.

It was in these matches that I felt Martinez produced self-inflicted wounds by persisting with his style of play and making very poor team selections. It was as if, even when we reverted to winning matches with a counter-attacking style, lurking below the surface was this uncontrollable urge to revert back to possession based football. I donÂ’t have anything against this style of football, but in the Premier League, and certainly for the type of players we have, it simply cannot be used as often as Martinez has implemented it. The results and performances prove it, and a manager intent on achieving the maximum success with the talent at his disposal would have adopted his methods.

The conclusion that I have drawn is that, ultimately, a leopard will not change its spots, and Martinez’ core belief in his style of play – that it conserves energy, avoids burn out, and is the right way of playing – will always, in my opinion, drive his decision making.

That decision making will produce more self inflicted wounds next season, whether through Martinez silly tactical selections or the players making errors from trying to retain possession in very dangerous areas (how many errors have we made leading to goals, something like 12?).

To top it all off, some of the signings and treatment of players has been baffling. I am firmly a Lukaku fan, and alongside McCarthy and hopefully Lennon, heartily congratulate Martinez on bringing these players to the club. But there have been some very strange or poor quality signings - Lacina Traore, Atsu, Alcaraz, EtoÂ’o and I would include Kone. At ٤M for a 30-year-old striker, we were always taking a risk with our meagre transfer resources.

Then the abundance of hamstring injuries (so many in such a short space of time) which kept out key players pointed towards bad management as opposed to bad luck.

The last, but equally telling factor is the performance of some of the players he inherited. Having seen Ross Barkley scale the heights last season, I find it sad and frustrating to see such a great talent floundering. Barkley showed his talents as a counter-attacking weapon in the games against United, QPR and his cameo at home against the Magpies, where he could run at the opposition. Instead, he is being used in a David Silva type role to which is he unsuited – Ken Buckley wryly noted he needed "Osman’s brains" and would be a real player. I think he is a real talent, just not in David Silva’s mode.

Coleman and Baines too, have been shadows of themselves this season, struggling with confidence and poor form following a prolonged spell where the side failed to consistently play to their strengths.

We are a club with a limited transfer budget and, I would argue with a limited period of time to hold on to the undeniable class that we have in the core of the team. Whilst the consensus is that he will be given until X-mas atleast, my view is that he should be let go now, as I donÂ’t believe he will change his philosophy and mantra. By letting him stay until X-mas, we therefore risk yet another season of underachievement and worse, a few key members of our highly talented squad.

David Ellis
57 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:00:07
You may as well ask whether we want Putin to go or stay. HeÂ’s staying.
Amit Vithlani
58 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:06:14
The Russian political equivalent of TW is probably running the same thread, David.
Brian Harrison
59 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:06:59
As many have said it is immaterial to the views of fans all the signs seem to suggest he is staying. Time will tell whether this is the right thing or not.

I heard an interview with an ex president of Real and he said he couldnÂ’t remember any manager at Real lasting more than 3 seasons in the last 40 years. Mind I suppose If you are one of the richest clubs in the world then you can change the manager every 2 years and get success. You only have to look at Chelsea, they change managers very frequently yet still win trophies.

After all Chelsea sacked Di Matteo after winning a Champions league just as Bayern did with Jupp Hynkess

Christopher Timmins
60 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:23:24
Folks, there will be no change of manager during the summer as a result of the current manager being sacked by the Board, its not worth speculating about at this stage.
Derek Turner
61 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:09:16
Except if this were Russia, and Martinez was Putin, Phil and Darren would be breaking big rocks into little rocks in some arctic wasteland for the next 20 years.
Eugene Ruane
62 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:21:53
Jay Harris (48) - "Poorest preseason in the history of the club"

Is that true (as in...true) or is it not true?

Helen Mallon
63 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:59:46
Joe Foster here is a post for Martinez to stay. He dropped our worse defender for Stones. He signed Lukaku. He has changed the teamÂ’s style of play since Christmas changing our loosing streak. He took us on a European trip beating top sides on the way. Is that ok with you?
John Raftery
64 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:21:36
The squad is going through a transitional period with the older players being phased out and younger lads being phased in. That always takes time as Man Utd and others with much larger budgets than us are finding. West Ham have supposedly had a good season but partly owing to injuries have fallen below us in the table. Roberto has yet to prove he can consistently find the right players in the transfer market and if he brings in two or three new signings in the summer at least one of them needs to be good enough to step straight into the team, preferably in the number 10 role. If he gets that right I think we will be back in the top 6 or 7 and be in a position to prioritise the League Cup. As others have said changing the manager now would be a knee jerk reaction to one below average season in which, despite the Europa and a catalogue of injuries to key players we have still been able to finish in mid-table. I doubt LVG, Mourinho or any of the managers of clubs above us in the table would have done any better in the circumstances.
Of course there are lessons to be learned in terms of RobertoÂ’s tactics, team selection, substitutions, transfer dealings and bizarre statements to the media but at this stage I would prefer to see him given the opportunity to learn those lessons than start again with a new face.
Tony Abrahams
65 Posted 18/05/2015 at 12:34:30
I only renewed my season ticket when Moyes left because I felt he was in bed with the chairman, way too much.

DonÂ’t think I will renew but, if I donÂ’t, I will only watch the blues away from Goodison Park.

IÂ’ve just been told Bill Kenwright is ill: if he is, I sincerely hope he gets better, but IÂ’ve had enough of the present regime, and the completion of the lowering of standards for Everton FC.

I agree with Kevin’s number 7, what if he’s turned into a better manager? He will only become better when he mixes the two styles – English and Spanish – for me, and I’m not sure if he can do this.

Look at one of the finest managers to grace the English game, Wenger. His finest moments came when he had a big, strong English back 5.

Helen Mallon
66 Posted 18/05/2015 at 13:16:14
Dick Fearon, this post is for reasons Martinez should stay not for you to slag him off you have always been against him.
Dave Ganley
67 Posted 18/05/2015 at 13:20:33
Like others, I want Martinez to go but I also accept he will be here next season. My big fear is that he will stick to the uninspiring football we have witnessed for most of this season.

I donÂ’t think its relevant to compare MoyesÂ’s second season and MartinezÂ’s as el Bob has a much better squad than Moyes and really should be doing better with the quality of player he has at his disposal. However, one thing that Moyes definitely has over Martinez is that for most part, the players looked like they cared so regardless of the results Moyes had in the early years, I at least appreciated the efforts they put in. DonÂ’t forget, we had Marcus Bent, Scott Gemmill, Mark Pembridge etc in our team at the time whilst now we have Barkley, Lukaku, McCarthy etc.....in my opinion far far better players who are grossly underachieving. The players need to have a good hard look at themselves, but in this day and age of player power unfortunately, itÂ’s the manager who carries the can.

Why have I been turned off by Martinez this season? The simple reason that for the first time ever, and I have been going to watch Everton for 40 years, I am not excited going to the game. Even during some of the darkest periods of the 90s, I was still excited when Saturday came (or whatever day we played on) and couldnÂ’t wait to go to the game. Now it feels like an obligation rather than an excited pleasure. If Martinez can get me looking forward to the game again on a regular basis then I will be more inclined to give him more of a chance.

As somebody else has pointed out, the great thing about football is that you start from scratch again come August, but this time is more in hope than any great expectation. A summer off to recharge the batteries and try to forget this season. I will be there again in the new season and hope we can get off to a flying start and banish this season to the history books, but if we start the season as we have played most of this season then the storm clouds will be quickly gathering again and we will be asking all the same questions once again.

Conor McCourt
68 Posted 18/05/2015 at 11:53:50
my case for Roberto-

For me the transition to us being a big club again involves either a sugar daddy or Champions Lge place. Of course at the minute our squad is probably the 7th best in the Prem but the progressive football we play under Roberto means we can outplay teams of superior quality. Under David we consistently outperformed our position but had he been our manager for the next 20 years we would struggle to break the top 4 as his pragmatic percentage based approach means we would always struggle at Arsenal and Utd despite the incredible job he done.

I also feel Roberto in 2 years is building a team for the future. In less than 2 years in charge we have Stones,Barkley,Coleman,McCarthy,Lukaku as regulars under 25 whereas of the team he inherited only one player Seamus was in that age group. In addition he has brought Besic,Galloway,Robles to the club and give others like Garbutt and Browning their head. All his signings bar Alcaraz,Kone Barry and McGeady have been under 23. This is so different to the last 2 years of the previous regime.

All fans know how disappointing the season has been but it was always going to be so with the average EL newcomer finishing 3 places below the previous seasons tally. This combined with a weaker squad imo as Dellboy was a huge loss meant that we were always going to find it a struggle. The WC, Jags being hung out to dry by his country, DistinÂ’s sudden demise as well as a big injury list as well as Roberto not replacing Dellboy meant we had a disastrous first half to the season. He put too much emphasis on Europe with our league position suffering. We will definitely finish top 7 this season as this for me was a one-off season.

Another factor as to why I like this manager is that he has a plan for us to still compete despite our resources. Most managers would have sacrificed one of our young stars last summer and improved the squad like Spurs have constantly done. Roberto feels that by keeping our 5 or 6 gems and purchasing/producing 3 or so players per year that we can compete with the bigger clubs in 3 or 4 years. He was criticized for spending 30 million on 2 players but in Lukaku he knew that he was buying a 20 goal striker and while some would argue this policy backfired short term there is no doubt it will pay off further down the line as we have a top striker for the first time in years. Spurs sold Bale..are they any closer to top 4? Had they kept him for 2 more years he would have taken them into it and they then could have attracted a better type of player than the 7 or so they got.

I also think you judge a manager by how he leaves the team when heÂ’s gone. For example Martin OÂ’Neill is considered a great manager and he has been successful everywhere except Sunderland. But in every team he leaves the club in a mess. He spends all his budget on 30 year olds and has players to fit his system so in my view he serves his own cv and not that at the club he manages. At Celtic the average age of the team was 32 when he left. Many have touted Mark Hughes as RobertoÂ’s successor, a similar manger to OÂ’Neill. Be careful what you wish for as if Roberto was sacked today we are much healthier as a squad than when he walked in the door and I have no doubt in 2 years we will be much better again.

Finally I will also mention the fact that the football we played last season was the first time I was really proud to be an Everton fan in my 36 years. I only barely remember the mid 80Â’s and supporting us was always like having a brother that annoys the shit out of you, you love him but you want to beat seven bells out of him most of the time. Moyes gave us our crediblility and transformed the club from no-hopers to a regular top 7 team but last year we were like a breath of fresh air not just to Evertonians but also the Premer Lge and we became everyones second team playing the football I always dreamed we would.

Others have commented that last year was our best season and that Roberto has proved he loves cup competiitions so I havenÂ’t dwelt on those successes. Keep the faith as good times are ahead

Conor McCourt
69 Posted 18/05/2015 at 14:04:14
Incidentally had we finished 10th last season and 5th this season not even Phil Wailling would want him out but the fact its the opposite direction justifiably clouds our judgement of his tenure
Paul Andrews
70 Posted 18/05/2015 at 14:23:17
Very interesting comments on this thread, some very reasoned argument why Martinez should stay.

One thing that hasnÂ’t been mentioned by the posters advocating the removal of the manager. Can we have some names of who you think should take over please? No good changing managers for the sake of change without a realistic replacement.

Derek Thomas
71 Posted 18/05/2015 at 14:08:47
Conor; you feel Roberto is 2 years ( seasons?) from building a team for the future ( how far in the future?)

If so, we will see building blocks laid this window, well a couple of them given our finances. Maybe if these building blocks are not made of straw we will see some improvement next season.

Then the next summer window, some more building blocks and we will see some more improvement.

Then the next summer window, some more building blocks and we will see some more improvement.

Then after that, some time in the future (???) we will have a team for the future.

#jamtomorrow.

The first piece of Moyeses plan was Yobo. By the time Moyes announced his 2nd 5yr plan ( and my heart dropped at the prospect of 5 more years of this shite ) Yobo had more or less gone.

Conor; short version, youÂ’re living in a dream world mate.

Denis Richardson
72 Posted 18/05/2015 at 14:49:55
Thought this OP would open a can of worms but IÂ’m not going to bite. Think most people know my views on our manager.

IÂ’m simply relieved that this dross of a season has finally come to an end and I cannot believe how much time IÂ’ve wasted (yes wasted) watching Everton play. Tbh for me it was over end of March and IÂ’ve watched barely half the games since once I realised the manager wasnÂ’t going to change tactics/formation or try out the young guns... lifeÂ’s too short and the weather too nice to watch paint dry or Â’sunny days and sticky grassÂ’ causing our players issues.

I somehow think this every summer but this time really do feel that this coming transfer window is going to be massively important – whatever happens. Distin and Alcaraz will go, Garbutt probably too. It would not surprise me if another one or two players also left as any decent bid will be accepted for pretty much any of our players. Question marks and age also hang over the likes of Hibbert, Pienaar, Barry and Howard and I’d hope at least a couple of these will be moved on.

People on this site know where the weaknesses are in the first team so itÂ’s up to the manager to earn his pay and bring in quality players to plug the gaps, beef up the squad and bring the average age down. Not of course forgetting sorting out a decent pre-season this time round.

As noted above, like him or lump him heÂ’s going to be here come August so the next 3 months will be interesting indeed.

Eddie Dunn
73 Posted 18/05/2015 at 15:41:58
Kenwright will not sack him, and he surely will be given at least until xmas to produce an improvement in results.
The last 10 games have produced a fair haul of points, and some decent football. On this alone, we would be in the top 7 or so.
I have been one of his consistent critics this season, and I have been regularly frustrated by his selections and bullshit talk.
However, there appears to be an improvement, and he has got a better balance in the side at present. Lennon has been very useful in that respect.
Lukaku is a problem. A 28 million pound problem. He is good with the ball in front of him, and he is a fair winger, with an eye for a long pass, but the rest of his game is very poor.

With no credible competition for his place, and a huge price tag, the manager has been inclined to stick with him.
20 goals donÂ’t tell the true story, as so many were in the Europa, and there were free kicks and penalties in the league total.
he is difficult to play alongside, and never pulls defenders out of position, for others, because he is only thinking of one person...himself.

The team needs more dynamism, more pace and a bit more of MaccaÂ’s growling to make the next step forward.

If Martinez can get a creative play-maker and a second striker, then we might be pleasantly surprised.
If not, it will be a similar story to this season, and then he should be sacked.
If he could tone-down his ridiculous comments he would look a lot better next season.

Kevin Tully
74 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:08:45
One more thing. I donÂ’t think his utterances (mad as they are) should be used a stick to beat him with, or used as a reason why he shouldnÂ’t remain as our manager as some have intimated.

After all, his latest comment stated we arenÂ’t looking for another striker, does anyone actually believe that?

If we are going to start judging any manager by his statements to the press, then we are all in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - from the 20th floor.

Joe Foster
75 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:22:56
Delboy on his way
Patrick Murphy
76 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:22:39
Kevin (74) ItÂ’s not that sort of comment that riles most people itÂ’s the "sticky grass" , "best player of his generation" type comments that cause the problems - Merseysiders are generally plain-speaking and respond best to others who say what they mean and mean what they say.
Andrew Ellams
77 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:26:47
If you took every Premier League manager at their word when it came to transfer dealings you would never know what was going on.

But as Patrick says, it the stupid comments that annoy people the most and whatever happens with Roberto Martinez and Everton, Â’sticky grassÂ’ will be remembered for a long time.

Joe @ 75, says who?

Denis Richardson
78 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:17:24
Kevin 74, whilst I agree with your post you do have to admit when the guy has a mike stuck in front of him he just canÂ’t help himself - more often than not he comes out with nonsense.

Apart from the classic Â’sunny day/sticky grassÂ’, Â’Barkley best ever Everton/England playerÂ’, Â’Atsu to explode the second half of the seasonÂ’, Â’Stones the best ball playing CB in EuropeÂ’.....he also said something along the lines of Lukaku playing a lot better if he had a second striker alongside him........then continues to play Rom up top on his own and says heÂ’s not looking for another striker (he also said heÂ’d only let Eto go if he had a replacement striker..). In Jan it was Â’IÂ’m looking for another GKÂ’, now itÂ’s weÂ’re strong in that dept, etc.

I know that no manager will ever not say strange things but this guy has an almost limitless arsenal of bullshit. As this season has gone on, one thing IÂ’ve learned is that I should just ignore everything he says. So much of what he has said has been either untrue, inaccurate or just made no sense at all - which has also made watching the blues more mind numbing given the pre/post match chat was (in the past anyway) also part of the overall fun, for me at least.

Kevin Tully
79 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:40:30
Honestly, he can sit there like this ; Link if it means we are winning footy matches. It wasnÂ’t a problem last season, was it?
Ian Hollingworth
80 Posted 18/05/2015 at 16:36:31
Congratulations to all the posters who have made intelligent and well thought out posts.
However I think his tactics are SHITE, he talks utter SHITE and if we keep him we will be in the SHITE
Richard Dodd
81 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:38:30
I think we can assume that Martinez will be with us for next season. I hear that Kenwright enquired about DaveyÂ’s availability and was told that, just as he did at Everton, he will complete his contract in Spain. An honourable, straight talking man!

So we shall just have to wait for the return of our best manager in Premier League history. Another wasted season is in sight!

Colin Glassar
82 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:35:22
Great post Conor. Rome wasnÂ’t built in a day and as someone previously stated OFM first three seasons were; 7th, 17th, 4th I believe. You canÂ’t judge a manager on one poor season after a fantastic one. If man u hadnÂ’t stuck by Fergie who knows where the mancs would be now?
RobertoÂ’s big test is next season. If he doesnÂ’t improve he will be on his bike.
Barry Jones
83 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:23:39
Pros:
He has a nice coat..........canÂ’t think of any others

Cons:
He has no record of success
He shows poor judgement with purchases and selection
Team selection and setup is inconsistent
He inconsistency carries over into most other things
The players are struggling to implement a game plan
He does not learn from his mistakes
It is all about him, not the club
His ego does not allow him to correct his mistakes early on
He is not honest
His ego, lack of consistency and honesty will lose him the dressing room

Regardless, he will be manager next year for all the reasons stated on here. The club would could consider it unfair to dismiss him so early, not to mention expensive. I will be interested to see and hear BKÂ’s reaction next season if things do not go well. Moyes had his detractors but he generally kept a happy dressing room. I think that this will be the biggest issue for Martinez.

Paul Andrews
84 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:54:59
Barry,

To answer your first point in the "cons" section. He won the FA Cup a few years ago

Jamie Barlow
85 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:56:08
He has no record of success?

I stopped reading your silly post right there.

Barry Jones
86 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:01:21
Jamie, apart from the FA Cup win with Wigan, Martinez has no record of success in the league, where it counts. Why do you find him to be successful?
Colin Glassar
87 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:05:21
Keeping up a rugby team, in a rugby town, whilst selling his best players is somewhat of an achievement Barry. Plus, totally out witting OFM and Mancini (and his billionaire team) to win the FA cup is also an achievement IMO.

IÂ’m not just saying this cos he is the Everton manager. Alex MacLeish, the wally with a brolly and any other manager who wins a major trophy with a "minnow" deserves everyoneÂ’s respect.

Jamie Barlow
88 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:14:08
Barry, if youÂ’d have started your post off with "he has no record of success in the league, where it counts"( which is still bollocks) I might have read on, but you didnÂ’t.
Barry Jones
89 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:12:43
It is a fair point that you have made Colin, but is that the level of success that you are looking for when selecting an Everton manager? It will always be difficult in selecting someone when the CV is somewhat limited and trying to anticipate what level of success that the person can bring to the club. I believe that he promised BK a Champions league spot.
Barry Jones
90 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:18:46
So Jamie, what level of success does Martinez have in the league? Granted that success is all relative as Colin pointed out in comment #87. I would love to hear your explanation as to why you consider him to be a successful manager and a good fit for Everton.
Colin Glassar
91 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:19:31
BK, in his usual flamboyant style, said Martinez promised him CL football (while Martinez went crimson) in the press conference, Barry. That aside, IÂ’m sure Roberto presented a short, medium and long term plan to the board and I think that last season surprised even him as everything seemed to click into place.

This season has been an unmitigated disaster IMO and next season he will either have to deliver or walk. BKÂ’s no mug. He wonÂ’t want to see us struggling for safety like we had to this season so Roberto will have to knuckle down in the summer to get us ready for the new season. No mistakes this time.

Jamie Barlow
92 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:25:24
I donÂ’t know what youÂ’re getting at Barry.

What is success in the league? How high do you have to finish to be successful? Do you have to win the league or finish in the top 4 to be successful? WasnÂ’t finishing 5th with our highest points successful?

It doesnÂ’t matter anyway, you never mentioned anything about the league in your first post. You said he had no record of success. I didnÂ’t know FA cups didnÂ’t count.

Nicholas Ryan
93 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:45:33
This thread is based on an assumption, that the only 2 possibilities are pro-Roberto, or anti. What about people like me, who are a bit of both?

While I acknowledge we have played some appalling dross this season; there have been Â’green shootsÂ’ such as MUFC at home and W.Ham away.

Clearly RM has made some dreadful mistakes, but the question is; has he learned the brutal lessons from those mistakes? There is some, modest, evidence that he has.

We also need some perspective. Some times this season, we have played like the Farmers Arms 2nd XI; yet we will likely finish 10th. If Â’rock bottomÂ’ is a top-10 finish, then perhaps we are not as bad as we think.

Kevin Mirallas is a player who could go elsewhere if he wanted to. Halfway through the season, he couldnÂ’t get out fast enough; now, heÂ’s begging to stay - has he seen a corner turned, and a recovery starting?

Whilst having substantial doubts, I think RM has [just about] done enough to justify another season. We should be better, which, logically means we will finish higher than 10th ... well, thatÂ’s a promising start!

David Holroyd
94 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:24:40
Wake up some of you and smell the coffee, itÂ’s been boring,boring boring. We cannot wait till Xmas cos it will be 31 years since our last title. He Martinez is out of his depth. Simple as that.
Nick Waters
95 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:32:23
Barry, for balanceÂ’ sake, he won League One in 2008 with Swansea against 23 other teams with a 10 point winning margin, and then got them to 7th in the Championship the following year before Wigan took him.

Keeping Wigan in the Premier League for as long as he did should not be underestimated. Their historical average position is mid League One, say 50th overall, (which is where they will be next season and probably for the foreseeable future too.).

Martinez should be given most of next season to see if he can push on again in the biggest job of his career so far, tethered, letÂ’s not forget, by tight purse strings.

Kevin Dale
96 Posted 18/05/2015 at 17:16:52
As usual some great post and some good balanced views, for me Darren Hind (44) sums it up pretty well.

I think you do have to look back at the end of last season, this seasons pre-season mess, plus many games throughout this season were our tactics have been just awful, which shows his leadership skills are sadly lacking!

However, we have got him for this coming new challenge, I just hope if things start to go sour early doors our board have the balls to act quickly, pre-season will be interesting!!

Jamie Crowley
97 Posted 18/05/2015 at 18:55:53
Reasons for staying:

Roberto wants to play attractive, attacking football

Roberto wants to build a Club from top to bottom

Roberto believes in his heart he can see the Club into the top 4 despite budgetary constraints

Roberto has shown he can produce with a record points haul last season

Reasons for his ouster:

Done to death. And inasmuch as IÂ’m getting fed up with the "negativity", thereÂ’s a shit-ton of valid points brought forth by that camp.

Slow build up

More opportunities for younger players

Questionable selections at times

Shitting rose petals at press conferences

I want to believe he can do it. So I plod forward following our manager. He might be marching me straight over a cliff, or he might be marching me towards heaven. IÂ’m willing, because IÂ’m drinking Roberto Kool-Aid, to give him more time to create the utopia he seeks. And, inexplicably for some I know, I believe in the guy and think heÂ’ll get it right.

At least we have a guy who wants only the best, and isnÂ’t taking knives to gun fights and all that ridiculous, "you know your place Everton donÂ’t rock the establishment" mindset.

<< Puts on tin hat and full plate metal armor (armour) >>

Barry Jones
98 Posted 18/05/2015 at 19:17:41
Jamie C, honest and fair list.
Jamie Crowley
99 Posted 18/05/2015 at 19:26:27
Barry -

DonÂ’t sell yourself short.

RobertoÂ’s coat is mustard.

Colin Glassar
100 Posted 18/05/2015 at 19:30:05
And his shoes Jamie. Got a pair just like them. Primark, not Gucci. Good post btw.
Phil Walling
101 Posted 18/05/2015 at 20:16:35
Jamie @97 : ArenÂ’t you the lucky one with all those positives to enjoy next season. A few wins, the tide turns and the dross is history.

Utopia is just round the corner. As if !

Eugene Ruane
102 Posted 18/05/2015 at 19:51:07
The most frustrating thing about TW?

If you accuse someone of being an idiot/nob-head etc you can find your post, or yourself (fnaar!) pulled.

And thatÂ’s fine.

But posts that treat us like weÂ’re idiots/nob-heads are (apparently) fine.

Barry Jones Â’informs usÂ’ Martinez "has no record of success"

Are we not supposed to notice?

Are we supposed to be so thick we donÂ’t notice?

Of course when pointed out that this is patently shite, he becomes Vicky fucking Pollard and furiously gives it Â’yeah but no but yeah butÂ’

Earlier in this thread (48) Jay Harris stated (amongst other none facts presented as facts) - "Poorest preseason in the history of the club"

So not a bad pre-season -- the "Poorest preseason in the history of the club"

Again it more than smacks of Â’idiots/nob-heads, they wonÂ’t notice thatÂ’

Martinez has made mistakes and his football and football philosophy has undoubtedly tested many (including me) this season, but when I see people simply making shit up, then using it to have a go, itÂ’s not the manager I want rid of.

Barry Jones
103 Posted 18/05/2015 at 20:45:26
Eugene, as I stated before, success is a thing that is gauged relatively. In trying to be succinct, I didnÂ’t explain this well in the original post. But if you see Martinez as a manager with a successful career and you believe that he is the right fit for the Everton managerial position, then good for you. I personally donÂ’t see his CV as being good enough in the first place. This is where we beg to differ.

Patrick Murphy
104 Posted 18/05/2015 at 20:56:23
David (94) You had me worried when you wrote "We cannot wait till Xmas cos it will be 31 years since our last title" I thought I had slept through a couple of seasons and ran to the kitchen to make myself a large mug of black coffee. It is presently 28 years since we took the title and 2018 will mark the 31st anniversary, unless of course we miraculously lift it in the interim.
Oliver Molloy
105 Posted 18/05/2015 at 20:40:02
Martinez deserves 10 games to demonstrate to all he has what it takes to manage Everton and show that his first season in charge was no fluke.

If after this time frame the signs are itÂ’s not working, then BK needs to act. In saying this, letÂ’s not kid ourselves that we are a team in transition and the manager has a job on his hands. Any manager would have a job on their hands trying to keep Everton in the top 6 with our transfer budget.

Martinez, we all know wants to play an attractive brand of football and I am all for that,but IÂ’m really hoping that this manager has learned a lot from this season.

He is looking to build his own team, we can all see that, he has total belief in, Lukaku, Barkley, McCarthy, Stones, all young players that are learning every match. It is all about getting the right blend of experience and youth that are good enough,and we have that at Everton I think, it is getting it all to fit into place that is going to take time.

Confidence is everything in life, football is no different-look at Stoke this season. A good start to the new season is so important....

Paul Jeronovich
106 Posted 18/05/2015 at 21:30:30
Superb first season, beyond what we could have wished for if weÂ’re all honest about it.

Second season, pretty disastrous. Horrible defending, slow going forward and no Plan B.

Kenwright has to give RM the first 10 games of next season and some backing in the summer. If the season gets off to a bad start then the change must happen early. Although, as I type this, I canÂ’t help but think of the slow starts year on year under Moyes. Hard being a blue sometimes!!!

Stephen O'Donnell
107 Posted 18/05/2015 at 21:29:17
Would love Ronald Koeman ASAP. What a great season for his first time in the Premier League. He deserves Manager of the Season for sure. Can we part-ex Phenomenal Unique Bobby?
Kunal Desai
108 Posted 18/05/2015 at 21:26:13
The board would see Martinez as an improvement on Moyes if we are doing a comparison on both managers first two full seasons.

Moyes finished 7th and 17th (98 points combined) compared to Martinez 5th possible 10th/11th place finish (119-122 points).

People will point to a better squad Martinez has but the season Everton finished 17th, it can be argued that Moyes potentially had better players at his disposal than the clubs that finished above us. (Ferguson, Campbell, Radzinski, Rooney, Gravesen, Carsley, Yobo, Osman and Martyn)

One could suggest there is no way we should be finishing below the likes of Charlton, Bolton and Birmingham with those players in or squad.

Moyes turned it around the following season, Martinez needs to do the same and get this group of players on his side and show that this season was a blip. If he cannot turn it around by October/November and poor tactics and performances continue into next season then he must be dismissed.

Ross Edwards
109 Posted 18/05/2015 at 22:06:30
LetÂ’s be honest, we canÂ’t compare Moyes and MartinezÂ’s 2nd seasons because RM has an infinitely superior squad to what DM had, plus football has changed in those 10 years.

Paul Kelly
110 Posted 19/05/2015 at 04:42:04
Darren Hind summed it up perfectly.

I want him gone.

Kunal Desai
111 Posted 19/05/2015 at 07:07:46
Ross - Most of those players who finished 17th under Moyes finished 4th the following season so to me that shows he should have finished alot higher than 17th with the capabilities of those players. Yes the team of today is far superior but in the context of the season 03-04 we had a squad who should have achieved more than some of those sides that finished above them. IÂ’m not making any excuses for Martinez here by any means. Just a comparison of two managers in there first 2 years incharge. Make no mistake I want Martinez shipped out if results continue in the same vein next season.
Nigel Gregson
113 Posted 19/05/2015 at 10:21:25
Barry Jones #103 - Who in your opinion is this Â’successfulÂ’ manager worthy of commanding the mighty blues? The finished product who never makes any mistakes nor needs to learn anything new? One or two examples please?
Nigel Gregson
114 Posted 19/05/2015 at 10:28:19
Eugene #102 - pretty much sums up the reason why I donÂ’t bother posting much anymore (and yes I recognize the irony of saying so in a post).
Andrew Ellams
115 Posted 19/05/2015 at 10:23:53
We are not going to attract a successful manager to Everton. We are in the market for a young idealistic manager who has ideas on how to take this club forwards without the Man City billions. Last year we thought weÂ’d found one, this year weÂ’re not so sure. ItÂ’s bound to be a hit and miss process.

Personally IÂ’d like to see a more experienced who has had relative success in Europe come in and straighten things out and put the squad on better footing for the next idealistic man to come in. BielsaÂ’s name was thrown about a lot when Moyes left, he could do the job. Who ever it is will always be a gamble.

Kevin Tully
116 Posted 19/05/2015 at 10:56:31
At least we were top of the Premier League in some respects - individual errors leading to goals ; Link
Nigel Gregson
117 Posted 19/05/2015 at 11:00:33
Kevin #116 - oh shush - its all BobbyÂ’s fault. Dont bore us with facts.
Geoff Evans
118 Posted 19/05/2015 at 11:46:05
Two years of a three year contract gone, IÂ’m no lover of RM but believe he should be given the third season. Will be interesting to see what happens without the Thursday night distraction.
Paul Andrews
119 Posted 19/05/2015 at 12:12:22
I am pleasantly surprised by how many of our fans, and posters on ToffeeWeb, think Martinez should be our manager for next season. Some fans would have you believe there is a massive percentage who want him out. Apparently not the case.
Paul Tran
120 Posted 19/05/2015 at 13:17:59
Two more reasons to keep Martinez: heÂ’s had the best summer holiday in Everton managerial history and heÂ’s surely the highest - placed Everton manger to have no impact whatsoever on the team?

Patrick Murphy
121 Posted 19/05/2015 at 13:21:23
Geoff – I think he’s almost two years into a four-year contract following BK’s decision to extend it prior to the beginning of the season.
Barry Jones
122 Posted 19/05/2015 at 13:28:04
Nigel, (#113), I thought that someone might ask this. I can think of a couple managers that I would deem to be successful in the EPL and elsewhere, but I would agree with you that it is difficult to hire a proven talent for a club that is essentially mid table and not well bankrolled (that would be us).

Having said that, Southampton have done it successfully, at least twice now. So, my first and obvious proposition would be Ronald Koeman, but his stock has risen considerably in the last year and he may be unattainable for Everton now.

My second choice as as manager that "I consider successful" at this level would be Mark Hughes. I consider Sparky to have been "relatively" successful at Blackburn, Man City, Fulham and Stoke. I think he has the right balance for Everton. His teams try to play good football but he is also pragmatic, something that I feel RM is not.

Andrew Ellams
123 Posted 19/05/2015 at 13:44:29
So Barry, you consider a manager that has never won a trophy to be more successful than one that has? You must have loved Moyes.
Patrick Murphy
124 Posted 19/05/2015 at 14:01:43
Catterick and Kendall had both managed teams to the Second Division Championship before joining Everton, Walter Smith had won all kinds of trophies north of the border, whilst the likes of Moyes, Lee, Bingham, Walker et al had achieved little or nothing in terms of trophy wins.

Given that Catterick and Kendall were very successful at Goodison, we need an ex-Everton player who has managed to win promotion to the top-flight. Eddie Howe is an Evertonian and has won promotion, so thatÂ’s that sorted should the hierarchy decide to change the current manager.

Paul Tran
125 Posted 19/05/2015 at 14:02:33
Fair point regarding Koeman, Barry. ThereÂ’s another manager who had a great first season in his new job last season. Apparently he didnÂ’t follow it up. CanÂ’t think of his name, itÂ’ll come to me soon.

ThereÂ’s two types of manager weÂ’ll end up with; one who hasnÂ’t won anything, but will be Â’solidÂ’, whatever that means, or an up and coming guy who will be a punt.

Phil Walling
126 Posted 19/05/2015 at 13:50:26
What the hell is Â’winning the CupÂ’ to do with managing a successful Premier League team? These days most Â’bigÂ’ clubs play their reserves in cup games thus relegating these competitions to minor status. Luck dictates the winners.

Any comparison of Martinez and Moyes in Everton terms will show that they both average around 7th-place finishes... so far. Whoever eventually replaces the present incumbent will do well to maintain that average given that the Â’top sixÂ’ seem out of sight financially. But I long for someone to prove me wrong!

Andrew Ellams
127 Posted 19/05/2015 at 14:16:12
Phil, FA Cup Winners in the past 10 years:

2014 Arsenal
2013 Wigam
2012 Chelsea
2011 Man City
2010 Chelsea
2009 Chelsea
2008 Portsmouth
2007 Chelsea
2006 Liverpool
2005 Arsenal

Good job the big teams donÂ’t try... They seem to dominate the competition more than ever before...

Paul Tran
128 Posted 19/05/2015 at 14:47:59
Phil, were you re-writing history to Â’proveÂ’ that MartinezÂ’s cup win was down to luck, or that cups donÂ’t equal success when he wins one?

Your second point was a telling one; Moyes did a great job moving us up from lower-mid table to seventhish, but the leap beyond that is a much bigger one. It was beyond Moyes, looks beyond Martinez and will be just as tough a job for the next one.

Eugene Ruane
129 Posted 19/05/2015 at 14:56:18
Phil Walling - "But I long for someone to prove me wrong!"

See (127) AndrewÂ’s post?

See all those wealthy cup winning sides?

See your comment Â’luck dictates the winnersÂ’?

Just a big old heap of wrong.

IÂ’m happy for you, when someone longs for something, then it just.. happens, itÂ’s well - SNIFF - oh god, IÂ’m filling up here (fans face with hand in that annoying fruity way).

Paul Andrews
130 Posted 19/05/2015 at 15:13:49
England Joe Hart
RB 5 Argentina Pablo Zabaleta Yellow cardYellow cardRed card 60Â’, 84Â’
CB 4 Belgium Vincent Kompany (c)
CB 33 Serbia Matija Nastasić Booked 75’
LB 22 France Gael Clichy
RM 21 Spain David Silva
CM 42 Ivory Coast Yaya Toure
CM 18 England Gareth Barry Booked 87Â’ Substituted off 90+2Â’
LM 8 France Samir Nasri Substituted off 54Â’
CF 16 Argentina Sergio Agüero
CF 32 Argentina Carlos Tevez Substituted off 69Â’

Phil Walling,
"Most big clubs play their reserves in cup games"
ThatÂ’s the Man City team v Wigan in the Cup final that Wigan won.

Neil Riddell
131 Posted 19/05/2015 at 15:50:29
Has everyone read the article "The Ineptitude numbers are in" in The Guardian? ThereÂ’s a link on the ToffeeWeb web site. It makes REALLY interesting reading. It basically awards points for doing stupid, inept things. Everton come third, behind two relegated teams. ItÂ’s really a terrible indictment of management as much as anything else. Everyone should have a read it if you havenÂ’t already.
Nigel Gregson
132 Posted 19/05/2015 at 15:57:16
Neil #131 - if you look into those numbers carefully, you’ll see that Everton surge ahead in areas like ’individual errors leading to goals.’ Of course you can blame everything on the management at the end of the day, but these stats show something that we have already talked about in ungodly details – that our season was ruined by individual howlers in defense.

Surprisingly we are not even in the top 5 worst offenders in areas like Â’unsuccessful passes in own halfÂ’ (something that we were accused of a lot last year).

Graham Mockford
133 Posted 19/05/2015 at 15:57:03
Neil,

For Â’REALLY interestingÂ’ read Â’itÂ’s a fucking slow news day today what pile of shite can I conjure up to fill my columnÂ’

So basically itÂ’s a league table based on such important matters as taking your shirt off, giving away a two goal lead and offensive posts on social networking sites.

But of course Â’itÂ’s a really terrible indictment of managementÂ’

God help me!

Ross Edwards
134 Posted 19/05/2015 at 17:27:39
Paul Tran (125)

Would that be Michael Laudrup youÂ’re referring to? Won the League Cup in his first season, sacked a few months later?

Darren Hind
135 Posted 19/05/2015 at 19:11:47
Come on, Paul T,

YouÂ’re being very unfair to Robbie. He didnÂ’t take the long holiday you accuse him of. He merely fucked off for a couple of months to line his pockets working elsewhere.

So what if he was still drawing his wages from EFC...

Colin Glassar
136 Posted 19/05/2015 at 19:31:12
Not a bad team that Paul #130. Like I said, he beat the billionaires.
Mark Riding
137 Posted 19/05/2015 at 19:36:06
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
Geoff Evans
138 Posted 19/05/2015 at 19:57:42
Patrick

Stand corrected mate, I think next season should tell us all we need to know.

Phil Walling
139 Posted 19/05/2015 at 19:47:58
Paul @ 130. It still means fuck-all. If you havenÂ’t noticed that all these minor trophies have become seriously de-valued in recent years, you must have been listening to some biased Pie Eaters.

But if that feat alone makes Martinez your super-hero, so be it!

Patrick Murphy
140 Posted 19/05/2015 at 20:19:24
Phil - Whilst I agree that the Cups have become devalued in recent years, I bet if Villa win it in a couple of weeks theyÂ’ll be celebrating like crazy and so would we be if we managed to win one in the future. If our destiny is to be seventh at best, the only thing that will keep us going is the odd cup win now and again - or in our case once in every couple of decades.
Paul Andrews
141 Posted 19/05/2015 at 22:24:01
Phil Walling,

Martinez is not my hero, although I believe him to be a good manager, the right manager for EvertonÂ’s long-term future.

"These tournaments" are not devalued in the slightest. Quite the opposite. There are 5 teams investing serious money in the Premier League and 3 trophies to share between them. The trophies are very important to the top teams.

Jim Lloyd
142 Posted 20/05/2015 at 09:32:27
Darren, Paul, he would have got the agreement of the club to go to the World Cup and who knows what scouting he was doing while there?

Our best hope of success is in the two Cups. I canÂ’t see us challenging for the title, nor even getting in the top four for the next few years.

Nothing breeds success like success and that shower over the park would nearly always win one or the other cup, sometimes both of Â’em, if they didnÂ’t win the League Championship.

I agree with Paul (141.) You will not see Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Spurs or Liverpool, poo poohing of getting to Wembley, even for a semi-final.

The writer of the original post appears to be saying that "my gang always lay out logical, well thought out evidence as to why our manager should go, whereas "the other gang" donÂ’t use, reasoned argument, donÂ’t ever present evidence and donÂ’t make a case out for keeping our Manager; they just deride the nice reasoned arguments put forward by "my gang" for sacking the Manager.

I must be reading a different ToffeeWeb to him.

Comments like Brain Dead, Buffoon, Clown, Liar, Sheister, and more, have been used plenty of times to describe our Manager and I donÂ’t think those comments come from those who believe Roberto Martinez should stay.

There are a number of posters, who never wanted to see Roberto as Manager and I think they have delighted, like some CassandraÂ’s, that their prophecies have turned out to be correct and have not used reasoned argument but invective as to why he should go.There are others who have set out their reasons for wanting to see Roberto being sacked.

Equally, there have been posts that set out the reasons why they believe Roberto Martinez should stay. I may have selective vision but I havenÂ’t seen many posts from those who think RM should stay, who havenÂ’t set out their reasons why they think he should stay.

IÂ’m one of the ones who wanted to see Roberto get the job as our Manager. I was impressed by his desire to soak up all the traditions of our Club and espouse them at every opportunity he got...on the Telly, in the papers, attending functions like the lighting up of the Everton Beacon. I was also impressed by his desire to play attractive football and win.

For large parts of last season, he had me watching football that was actually "Exciting" and, dare I say it, though I have got tinnitus and may well have been hearing things, I heard people in the Upper Bullens round me, actually singing and joining in with "the School of |Science" refrain.

For the first time in years I saw our team take on the so called "Big boys" and frighten them to bits with good attractive football. So much so, the Pres were even beginning to focus on EFC in a positive manner.

I though his transfer dealing was a bit of a mixed bag in that first season. Taking Robles, Alcaraz and Kone from Wigan. Getting Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barry on Loan. I thought he did well in getting ٤ mill each for Anichebe and Jelavic.

I read on here how awful Robles was, yet after playing a few games he was called on here to replace Howard. He looks to be a decent goalie with a lot of time on his side. He might well become our first choice goalie.

Kone, heÂ’s also been slagged yet when Roberto bought him, his scoring record with a poor team was better than any Everton player in the last season. He might or might not be the forward we want but I donÂ’t think IÂ’ve seen enough of him to judge seeing how long heÂ’s been injured. This season should be the one where we see what he can/canÂ’t do

Alcaraz? Well heÂ’s played some decent games but some shockers too. Think thereÂ’s no doubt heÂ’ll be on his way.

Barry, Lukaku, and Deulofeu were all successes and the only point IÂ’d query is when we reinforced the squad by buying Barry and Lukaku. I thought that a 3-year deal for Barry was a bit too long; but I donÂ’t know all the background.

I donÂ’t accept that they werenÂ’t additions to the squad; they were. We lost them both at the end of the season. ThatÂ’s two players lost to the squad; but whatever, he bought them both, Lukaku was much to my surprise but delight as well.

So last season, to me was a really entertaining and successful one, and, like most others except the prophets of doom, were looking forward to this season. WeÂ’d got the highest points total ever and the most goals "I think" canÂ’t remember now.

I did think though, that we hadnÂ’t reinforced the squad as much as we needed to but what I havenÂ’t mentioned is the Cash Question at EFC. We donÂ’t know what the situation is but we can all make guesses, and I think we were in Micawber Territory before this last Sky deal. I think thatÂ’s why Martinez, like Moyes before him, kept hold of players, when, if we had some cash, he would have replaced.

This season, I think because we went so high, we felt the fall bigger. I think there are a number of reasons why it happened and I donÂ’t see these as excuses, just reasons.

First, the loss of Deulofeu without an adequate replacement (some might say why didnÂ’t he buy a replacement but my guess that the transfer pot was empty) Atsu turned out to be dud as did the feller we got on loan at the tail end of the season, who was about 6Â’-12".

I also think that there was bound to be a more aware set of opponents this season after some of the smackings we handed out. I think Roberto found it difficult to accept and then to alter his tactics to combat the opposition after they "found us out." I think itÂ’s been a very hard learning curve for both him and the players.

Unfortunately, though, he had to try and adapt, while the list of injuries to key players was just awful. Yes all clubs get injuries but the richer teams can accept injuries much more effectively than us.

As well as the number, our injuries were to key players and they were out for considerable periods of the season. Barkley out until October/November from the start of the season. Pienaar, twatted by that bastard in the home match against Arsenal. Hardly seen again for the season. Lukaku, Mirallas, McCarthy, Coleman, Barry, Baines, Stones, Jagielka, Howard (though I thought Robles did well) McCarthy out for a lengthy period and at times we had 4-5 first teamers missing for weeks on end.

I think the different formations he tried we partially due to the number of injuries to our wingers, So Barkley, Naismith & Lukaku were tried on the wings at different times. Trying Alcatraz with Jagielka and Barry just in front of them. Successful against Newcastle, bit of a disaster at Kiev.

I had doubts about Roberto during January, February and on a couple of occasions since. But in my view "The Evidence" that the original poster says we never put down, is here. He has made mistakes; I think he is learning form them. The team (or some members) are just not fast enough in the mind to play the fast passing game. Hopefully they will learn with practice but most of all to me, is what we do during the close season. This I think, Roberto has to get right but certainly deserves the chance to do so.

Andrew Ellams
143 Posted 20/05/2015 at 11:15:28
Irrelevant of your opinion of Martinez, can we please put this crap about him being in Brazil to bed. TV studios all over the world world would have been filled with managers and coaches doing pundit work and plenty would have been in Brazil atteding matches and training sessions. ItÂ’s standard for all major tournaments since TV pundits were invented.
Phil Walling
144 Posted 20/05/2015 at 12:04:30
Well, Martinez seems to be in good odour at the moment and has only to avoid a bad defeat on Saturday to go into the summer as Â’the future of Everton.Â’

Last seasonÂ’s achievements have stood him in good stead with many supporters who are prepared to accept the diversion of the Europa venture as the reason for this seasonÂ’s disappointments.

Assuming that we cling to 10th spot, our man will be averaging the Â’seventhishÂ’ finish that became the norm with his predecessor (over a much longer period, of course), so little has changed.

All is well in the State of Everton. It seems.

Michael Polley
145 Posted 20/05/2015 at 12:34:41
He needs to learn from this season. A poor start next season, and I expect him gone by October
Trevor Peers
146 Posted 20/05/2015 at 12:34:38
RobertoÂ’s status alters on a week by week basis, 2 defeats before the West Ham game and the knives were out. Imagine if we had lost that game and then the Spurs game. I reckon he would of been gone. Fine margins indeed. I think it will be the same next season with Roberto living on a knife edge.
Jim Lloyd
147 Posted 20/05/2015 at 13:03:15
Andrew (143) – Hear, hear.

Phil (144) – In my view, I don’t accept the "diversion of the Europa League adventure was the reason for this season’s disappointments."

I assume his aim was to try and win the Europa League and thereby get a place in the Champions League; there were a number of reasons why we fared badly this season, including the Europa League, not solely because of it.

WasnÂ’t MoyesÂ’s second season as manager finished with 17th place, yet half-way through this season there were plenty of calls for Roberto to get the push and still are.

I donÂ’t know what will happen next season. It will depend a lot on the transfers we get in. And that will depend on the pennies that our beloved True Blue Chairman can find.

Some posters think weÂ’ve got a very talented group of players and should be doing much better than we are. I donÂ’t agree. Assuming we can keep our best players, we still need quality additions to the squad. We desperately need a playmaker who can command the midfield. We need someone as clever as Pienaar to replace him, we need a back up Centre Half and another goalscorer. It might be that this will take two seasons, so unless Roberto manages the team to catastrophic levels, i.e. staring relegation in the face, I believe he should stay this coming season... and the next while he continues to build the team that he wants.

Paul Andrews
148 Posted 20/05/2015 at 14:56:15
Jim Lloyd, both your posts 142 & 147 are absolutely spot on. The most refreshing posts I have read on ToffeeWeb for a long time. Very eloquently put.
Jim Lloyd
149 Posted 20/05/2015 at 15:46:55
Thanks Paul,
Jamie Crowley
150 Posted 20/05/2015 at 16:11:46
Phil way back @101 with the "Utopia is just round the corner. As if !" comment -

Do me and yourself a favor...

Close your eyes and imagine Everton winning a Cup, or having a run at the top 4. Think about the potential of Coleman, Stones, McCarthy, Barkley, Lukaku, Mirallas, Jags, Baines... all coalescing into the perfect storm of success.

Feel that flutter in your gut? ItÂ’s the sensation of hope, excitement, and your dreams coming true.

Try it sometime. ItÂ’s fun. It might bring a smile to your face.

Maybe itÂ’s just fantasy but for your disposition and happiness I think itÂ’d do you some good.

DonÂ’t be so prudent, cynical, and realistic that you lose Hope. Find your inner little boy and give him a hug.

If you really believe itÂ’s all 7th-ish and thereÂ’s no hope, why do you watch or post?

When you were a kid did you dream? When did dreaming die with you?

Jeezuz man... the building blocks are there. Patience grasshopper.

And if itÂ’s all bullshit and none of it comes to fruition you can go back to your miserable outlook and prognostications.

IÂ’ll finish with I think youÂ’re a proper Blue (as if my assessment of you matters...) but will never understand your constant drum of defeatism.

Phil Walling
151 Posted 20/05/2015 at 16:45:15
If only, Jamie ! But 50 years of only fleeting success has taught me that pessimism is the best defence against heartbreak with this lot.

Hope for Â’seventhishÂ’ and save for dreams for things more worthy.

Jamie Crowley
152 Posted 20/05/2015 at 17:23:20
And that Phil, is a very fair response.

Cheers.

Jay Harris
153 Posted 20/05/2015 at 18:47:41
Eugene,
having watched Everton for the last 55 years I feel qualified to say that our preseason was in my opinion the worst in the history of the club.

Preparation was abysmal, games were organized at short notice, Players fitness and conditioning looked highly suspect and the team looked as if they had never played together before.

I have never seen or heard of such a shambles before. If someone wants to disagree with me that is fine but this site is about opinions and "that" is my opinion.

Darren Hind
154 Posted 20/05/2015 at 18:57:06
"ItÂ’s truly bizarre to see so many posters deny the evidence of their own eyes and claim that bigger clubs donÂ’t field weakened sides in the cups. I donÂ’t know which one worries me more, the fact that the actually seem to believe it ... or their foolish attempts to try to prove it.

EVERY season, EVERY fan of EVERY club – right the way down to the bottom of the Premier League – will see managers field a weakened team in the cup competitions . .Why don’t you people know that ? Its been smacking you between the eyes for fucking years... were’ve you been?

The the FA Cup used to be seen on a par with the League Title now its seen more like the League Cup (whatever its called next season) an opportunity to give fringe players playing time. The stakes are too high in the Premier League for most clubs (even the richest) to risk injuries.

The reason the bigger clubs tend to dominate is because their fringe players/ reserves tend to be better than everyone elseÂ’s and if/when they get to the latter stages guess what ? ... theyÂ’ll wheel out the big guns.

Of all the ridiculous arguments...

Paul Andrews
155 Posted 20/05/2015 at 20:08:13
Posters who believe the top teams play weakened sides in the FA Cup should have a look at the sides Arsenal, one of the finalists, selected in this seasons competition.

Hull 3rd round
Brighton 4th round
Boro 5th round
Man Utd 6th round
Reading Semi-Final

Paul Tran
156 Posted 20/05/2015 at 20:46:39
Jim, just to be clear, my comments about MartinezÂ’s holiday were a sarcastic pop at those who keep going on about it. I spent most of last summer on here arguing this issue.

IÂ’ve got no problem with the Everton manager being a pundit during the World Cup, when our players were either in the tournament or on holiday. He wouldnÂ’t have done any more sitting at an empty Finch Farm and I believe there are these things called phones and email that keep us in touch when weÂ’re abroad. As far as IÂ’m aware, he wasnÂ’t on the telly 24/7 and I work on the basis that managers have their pre-season lined up and scheduled before the previous season finishes.

What I want this summer is a team that looks fit and ready to play at the start of the season to build up some early momentum. The real issue last summer was MartinezÂ’s innate cautiousness, which has him starting everything too slowly and deliberately.

LetÂ’s see what he does this summer.

Paul Tran
157 Posted 20/05/2015 at 21:09:42
Interestingly, there was a piece on Alan Stubbs in todayÂ’s Times (Scotland), where he praises MartinezÂ’s calmness and ability to detach from the emotion and focus on what is happening on the pitch. Even more interesting is that IÂ’m currently watching StubbsÂ’ Hibs team do a passable impersonation of Everton this season; dominating possession, tidy passing in safe areas, creating very few chances and currently 0-2 down.....
Gavin Johnson
158 Posted 20/05/2015 at 21:14:42
Jay Harris #153 I think its a stretch to say last seasons pre-season was our worst in history.

WeÂ’ve had some truly chaotic ones in the time IÂ’ve supported Everton. I recall the pre-season where we were playing in Spain when the team were out on the piss (probably HK Mk2 time perios maybe) when Peter Beagrie nicked a motorcycle and drove it through a plate glass window.

So IÂ’m sure in the period before the advent of the Premier league there were some pre-seasons that were chaotic and disorganised to say the least. While I think Martinez sat on his laurels and took his eye of the ball I think in terms of preparation thereÂ’s been quite a few equally, if not worse over the years.

Jim Lloyd
159 Posted 20/05/2015 at 21:50:10
Darren (154) IÂ’m not so sure what the "ridiculous argument" is, that your referring to. Of course clubs will field weakened teams, if by that you mean that they will field a team that they feel will beat their opponents in the early rounds.

Our season, though shorter than it was, is still one of the longest in Europe And clubs are conscious of a build up of fixtures that can easily come about. So they use their squad to give players a rest and the more successful the club is, the more they will rotate the players.

There arenÂ’t many top clubs (Premier League clubs, I should say) that can challenge for a place in the top four, so they have less games to worry about changing the players but they will still do it in the early rounds.

I donÂ’t think that is because of a lack of interest in the domestic cups, because with most teams in the Premier League, they are the only trophies they will have a chance of. You will still find however, that, if Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, come up against a Premier League side in the early rounds, they will play their full sides, as will all other Premier League sides.

Paul Tran
160 Posted 20/05/2015 at 22:09:38
Jim, thereÂ’s only one ridiculous thing on this thread. Someone mentioned that Martinez had won a trophy, then the retaliation was, it was only the FA Cup, so it doesnÂ’t count as success. Then it didnÂ’t count because Wigan were lucky. Then it didnÂ’t count because anyone can win the FA Cup. When it was pointed out that barring Portsmouth & Wigan, only the big teams had won the cup, the argument now is that they donÂ’t play their full strength teams in it, so....so... so....so...itÂ’s not success.

As I keep saying, if you want him sacked, point out the league position, the poor football, the lack of blooding youngsters. The rest of it is a pile of bullshit, that smells stronger by the day.

Darren Hind
161 Posted 20/05/2015 at 22:07:39
Jim the point was a simple one.

People on this thread were refuting the irrefutable.

When Phil Walling stated that most big clubs will play their reserves in the cups, he wasnt offering an opinion he was stating the blindingly obvious. Yet we get a load of silly attempts to prove him wrong. They cant. They wont . . .Thats always the danger when attacking the individual as opposed to the point . .you risk looking ridiculous.

Its not a question of lack of interest its about priority. The Premiership is the cash cow. and if you – or anybody else – haven’t noticed manger’s playing weakened teams in the cups in every round of every season then you have simply not been paying attention.

Roberto has you guys a little confused. Perhaps its because he got it arse about face. when we got to the business end of a cup, he made the half witted decision to bench his best center half (big guns) and bring in the lamentable Alcaraz... as a result we were humiliated in a game we should have won.

Eugene Ruane
162 Posted 20/05/2015 at 22:15:08
Jay Harris (153) - "Eugene, having watched Everton for the last 55 years I feel qualified to say that our preseason was in my opinion the worst in the history of the club"

Well why donÂ’t you educate us all, youÂ’re obviously giving us an informed opinion - Everton are not too far off 140 years old and IÂ’m sure most of us donÂ’t have much of an idea about our pre-seasons before the 80s/90s, specially the ones in the 1800s.

Yes I am being sarcastic - having watched Everton for a similar period, I feel qualified to say, absolute nonsense!

What about 1973?

Or 1968?....or 1953?

Sorry but I donÂ’t believe you have a clue what has happened for most of our pre-seasons.

(and guess know what, only the oddest nerd would).

Most supporters didnÂ’t have a clue (or worry about) what went on for pre-season in the 60s and 70s - we didnÂ’t even know we were playing half the time (and before that, fuck only knows).

Mid 70s, a blue in Majorca might see a two day old Mirror and see Â’Southport Res 4 Everton 2Â’ and think nothing of it.

It didnÂ’t matter, wasnÂ’t taken seriously, no one gave a shite and the only reason many do now is because of (spit!) Sky.

"Sky, what have they..."

This - once you have a full time sports (and sports news) channels, you have to put some shite on it and......well fuck it, figure it out yourself.

Gary Lineker last year said results in pre-season friendlies were meaningless.

And didnÂ’t Utd have a boss pre-season, won every game..with Moyes? (or maybe the season before had a shite pre-season then won the title - it was one of the two)

As for your...

"I have never seen or heard of such a shambles before. If someone wants to disagree with me that is fine but this site is about opinions and "that" is my opinion"

No it wasnÂ’t - an opinion would have been "our pre-season may have been our worst ever"

What you gave us was "Poorest preseason in the history of the club" - opinion presented as fact, but without facts (and I reserve my right to point that out).

The reality as I suggest is that you (and others) are/were desperate to put the boot into Martinez (fine with me by the way) but were not happy with the actual facts, so you decided to invent a couple.

You can whine and back-pedal all you want, itÂ’s there in black and white.

Jim Lloyd
163 Posted 20/05/2015 at 23:38:39
Excellent response Eugene. Having watched Everton since around the middle of 1958, I canÂ’t remember ever being that bothered about how we got on in pre season friendlies, although it wea nice occasionally to get to an exotic place like Southport!

I wouldnÂ’t argue with your comments Paul and I certainly donÂ’t want him sacked. I want to see him do well for us.

I thought thatÂ’s what you meant Darren but I just wanted to check. What matters though, is what are you and Phil Walling inferring by making the point. "Most big clubs play their reserves

You say that if I or anyone else hasnÂ’t noticed that weakened teams have been played in Every Round in Every Season, then IÂ’ve simply not been paying attention! That is a guess I should say, and a wrong one.

In your first post you say that in "every season, every fan of every premiership club will field a weakened side in the Cup competitions."

Generally that is true, there should be no argument about it. But, there is a finer point to make, the club will generally want to stay in the competition and will field a side that they think can win the game

Since the introduction of substitutes, teams who have the manpower, will use a selection who they think will beat the opposition, while giving some of the regular first teamers a break, but several are usually on the bench in case they are needed.

I think it would be very different though, should two teams meet, from the third round, who are concerned that they might get beat by another side. For example, if Chelsea played us, I would Hazard a guess that they would field their First team squad; and I would say that is true for all Premier League teams who play each other.

I donÂ’t know how you come to the conclusion that Roberto has "us" whoever the "us" are, confused. That is a guess and it is a wrong one. You give as a reason, that Roberto got things arse about face in (I presume you mean) the Europa Cup and that he didnÂ’t bring out his Big Guns in Kiev.

You mention he made a half witted decision not to play his "Big Gun" defender but Alcaraz in instead. Well I was at the Newcastle match a few days before and saw Alcaraz have an excellent game. It was not only Alcaraz who had a poor game in Kiev, Jags and Tim Howard let in at least three goals between them. But that isnÂ’t deliberately fielding a weakened team anyway. He picked what he thought was his best side.

IÂ’ll make an assumption here, as I didnÂ’t see Phil WallingÂ’s post but I assume both him and yourself feel that these cups are no longer worth winning.

If that is what you are saying, I couldnÂ’t disagree more. I checked the winners teams for every final since 2005 and every final bar 2, I think, had a top 4-5 team in it. and in those games all the top four sides won the cup and Liverpool also won it with their full first team out. Man City had their full first team out but got beat by RobertoÂ’s Wigan side. Chelsea battered us with their full team out.

You say that the Big teams donÂ’t want to get injuries to their top players. Well, if they did not see either of the Cups worth winning, they wouldnÂ’t play their best players in them and risk getting them injured for a no mark cup.

So, my apologies if my assumption of you not seeing either cup as worth winning, is incorrect; but thatÂ’s how I read your arguments in both posts.

Dick Fearon
164 Posted 21/05/2015 at 01:12:43
Eugene, Jay, Not wanting to be a pig in the middle of you two but then again why not.
In the early days a pre season consisted mainly of a few weeks of running and sprinting. The aim being to have the players physically fit for the first kick off.

According to memos of Eamon Dunphy, Danny Blanchflower and other old pros right up to the final week footballs were rarely used.

Everton even went so far as to experiment with having a fitness coach instead of a manager. His name was Ian Buchan an expert on fitness from Edinburgh University.

There was no doubt that for the first few months of the season Everton was by far the fittest team in the 1st div and were successful. Other teams eventually caught up with us and IanÂ’s lack of football nous was exposed.

There is no doubt in my mind that in the first weeks of this season our players were gasping for breath and were clearly unfit. I had never seen the like in all my memory and on that score alone would have to conclude that our pre season regime was the worst since the early fifties.

Conor McCourt
165 Posted 21/05/2015 at 01:05:09
Can I please just defend Roberto on 2 areas which people on here state as fact but I vehemently disagree with

1) Martinez doesnÂ’t blood youngsters. I find this ludicrous as he is renowned for giving youth a chance ie at Wigan the 3 Macs McCarthy, McCarthur and McManemin as well as taking Cleverley on loan.

The list he has either brought through or purchased under 23 in his 2 years here is staggering and some of those slagging him for this contradictorily want Hughes as our next boss. My goodness Barkley may still not have made his debut had he been Moyes successor judging by his youth record.
I think this idea came from his preference of Barry over Besic but the latter had a World Cup and was new to the Prem and this was a tactical decision as the latter is a reactionary player who is positionally poor and Martinez didnÂ’t trust him to do the job. Incidentally he trusted Mac who is only 1 year older which kills the age question. Even when Barry was awful the manager still felt he was better as a defensive shield despite how visually poor he was playing.

2) Roberto is shit in the transfer market. I think he is harshly being judged on his first signings which he had to address quickly on taking over. We had to replace Heitinga and needed a cf so he brought in 2 players he knew. Alcaraz was wanted as cover and Kone to bring pace and movement. Had both not been unlucky with injuries they wouldnÂ’t have been the liabilities they are perceived.

With the exception of the disastrous Traore and perhaps McGeady not living up to his billing, even though a nominal fee and 2nd in assists for us this season, all of the rest of his loans and permanent acquisitions have been excellent.

We could definitely recoup what we paid and have a healthy profit left over if they were to be valued.

Peter Barry
166 Posted 21/05/2015 at 03:27:44
Go, go, go, go, go.
Paul Andrews
168 Posted 21/05/2015 at 06:21:37
Darren,

The point was the big teams not considering the FA Cup as worth winning. And subsequently fielding weakened teams.

I think JimÂ’s post at #163 covers it perfectly. There are 3 trophies for 5 big spending clubs.They all want to win them.

If you had a look at the teams Arsenal selected on route to this yearÂ’s final, you will see my point.

Darren Hind
169 Posted 21/05/2015 at 06:10:32
Jim,

Your last four paragraphs are based on an assumption you had no logical reason to make.

Just because Phil and I wont deny the evidence of our own eyes and pretend clubs donÂ’t prioritise the league, you really shouldnÂ’t assume one or both of us donÂ’t regard the cups as important... or that we even share the same opinion on it.

The difference between wanting to win a cup and desperately needing to contest/exist/survive in the richest league in the world is clearly lost on a few people here.

Andrew Ellams
170 Posted 21/05/2015 at 09:28:04
Slightly revisionist their, Darren. I donÂ’t recall anybody denying that the top clubs prioritise the league, but Phil Walling inferred that Wigan winning the cup was basically pot luck because the big clubs donÂ’t try but the list of winners throughout the Premier League era clearly proves that they dominate the FA Cup as much as they do the league.
Nigel Gregson
171 Posted 21/05/2015 at 10:11:41
Guys actually the original point was:

1) Martinez is a rubbish manager and must go as he has achieved nothing in the past.
2) Whatever he has achieved doesnÂ’t count because those achievements are either worthless or lucky or due to some one else.

And now instead of debating the original point we are reasoning out the Â’worthÂ’ of FA Cup. This is internet trolling at its finest. Post up something inflammatory and bias that argument with self-serving version of facts and watch the reactions pour in...

Laurie Hartley
172 Posted 21/05/2015 at 10:25:06
Peter @ 166, after working my way through the whole thread post by post, when I got to yours, I thought to myself, what is he on about? – then the penny dropped. Very succinct answer.

As for me I feel as if I have been in a tumble drier all season and my answer is – "I don’t know".

I think I will reserve judgement but the one thing that would set me firmly in the "go" camp is if we are not mad fit at the beginning of next season. As Dick @ 164 pointed out we were not fit enough at the start of this campaign and that was an indictment of the manager and his coaching staff.

Eugene Ruane
173 Posted 21/05/2015 at 10:55:35
Conor (165) – Comments could have been worse re blooding youngsters. I’m impressed the MOB (Mk II) exercised enough restraint to prevent ’The least amount of blooded youngsters in the entire history of football... ever!!"

Nigel (171) – Nail on head etc.

Dick (164) – "There is no doubt in my mind that in the first weeks of this season our players were gasping for breath and were clearly unfit. I had never seen the like in all my memory and on that score alone would have to conclude that our pre-season regime was the worst since the early fifties."

Well here’s the thing Dick – even if that was the case (and our many slow/shite starts under Moyes alone, suggests to me that you’re being selective) Everton’s history does not begin in the early fifties.

To be clear though (as it appears some need it spelled out), a bad pre-season is different from Â’the worst pre-season in our historyÂ’.

Jim Lloyd
174 Posted 21/05/2015 at 12:48:44
Nigel... off the topic, well probably. Internet Trolling?? My limited use of the media on the internet led me to believe that some people hunted a "victim" and made their life a misery... even leading to suicide on occasions. Happy to accept though that weÂ’ve gone round the houses a bit, but itÂ’s like a discussion in the Pub. Discussions tend to elaborate on aspects of the subject.

Darren, youÂ’ve lost me there. I think you are just waffling around the discussion and IÂ’m not sure anyone else can make any sense of it, not just me.

Just to make clear that I donÂ’t stray off the thread topic again. I reiterate that I think Roberto Martinez should stay. And not just for this coming season. Unless we are in absolutely dire straits, which we havenÂ’t been this season, I want to see him build his team of young, classy players, or at least give him the chance to.

Kevin Tully
175 Posted 21/05/2015 at 13:19:11
Regarding our pre-season preparations, IÂ’m sure everyone is aware we had quite a few of our players away at the World Cup, then we had to give them 4 weeks off. This quote from Arsene Wenger is quite telling ;

"In FIFA rules, you have to give four weeks holiday to the players after the domestic season. They need a breather. I have had the experience of post-World Cup years and they are always difficult years to get everyone back to the same level, mentally and physically."

It must have been difficult to try and arrange a meaningful pre-season when the players needed a break after the World Cup.

Phil Walling
176 Posted 21/05/2015 at 13:18:36
If the FA Cup is as important as it used to be – and it certainly isn’t in most people’s opinion – in very few seasons since 1995 have we seen our club excel in the competition. Yes, we’ve had the odd trip to Wembley but who the hell cares about losing semi-finals?

Clubs now say that FA Cup financial reward – Â’gloryÂ’ is well Â’last centuryÂ’ – pales into insignificance when measured against a £million plus for Premier League places and the transition to playing each round spread out over 4/5 days has taken away all the excitement.

Getting back to Martinez – whose winning the trophy whilst at Wigan and beating Everton on the way apparently got him his present job (it couldn’t have been his relegation feat, could it?) – he’s shown little indication of repeating the feat on our behalf. So how is it significant to the discussion?

Paul Andrews
177 Posted 21/05/2015 at 14:56:00
Jim Lloyd.

I agree with your post 100%. Martinez is on track to build a young vibrant team over the next 2-3 seasons. Next season will be too early in the schedule for him to reach the level he will, in my opinion, achieve for Everton FC in the long term.

We have no money to compete, transfer budget-wise; the only possibility we have is to gradually build a team of players all comfortable with one- and two-touch football. There will be players leaving, and players coming in who have the above ability.

Martinez has my full confidence in building a team worthy of the name Â’EvertonÂ’.

Darren Hind
178 Posted 21/05/2015 at 18:40:11
He left for South America telling us he KNEW we needed half-a-dozen more players. He told us they would be brought in. He lied, He knew he wanted Lukaku and he knew he would have to blow the budget to get him.

He stayed away longer than any other manager. Time he could have spent working with the juniors

He oversaw a shambles of a pre-season, leaving everything to chance, The club was still desperately trying to arrange fixtures with the big Kick off looming

The "recruitment department" he assured us would be bringing in the players heÂ’d identified must have been moonlghting as well. They never did show up . . .And so onto the season.

Our players where keen to play, but they were clearly in no condition to do do it over the 90. . Evertonians were forced to watch players blowing out of their arses long before the whistle and we squandered a couple of very healthy leads as a consequence.

Confidence dropped, the most solid of defences were suddenly looking like the Keystone cops. Schoolboy errors would repeatedly go unpunished . .in fact they were rewarded with selection for the next game. Crowds were beginning to usher away from The old lady in hushed bitter silence it was to get worse, much, much, worse.

Fans looked to the old pros to pull us out, but they were at odds with the manager. Our football went from being disjointed to becoming boring, predictable, monotonous, we were without doubt the premierships ugly duckling. Goodison eventually exploded.

Our prized youngsters where being so poorly managed they looked at times as if they had never played the game. Barklay the most talked about youngster in years was having his confidence shattered by being played here there and everywhere - in between benchings. Stones our prize center back was/is being exposed everytime we faced a corner. Lukaku was being mocked by oposition fans.
"Martinez Great with youngsters "? It would be funny if it wasnt so tragic

1) Leaving Howard in goal no matter how poor he got. only injury would see him out of the team

2) Dropping Robles when he was playing well

3) Reinstating Howard when he wasnt.

4) allowing our most valuable assets - Lukaku and Barklay to play injured resulting in even longer spells out

5) Insulting the intelligence of blues everywhere on a weekly basis with his after match bollocks.

6) dropping Besic and subbing when he was playing well

7) Selecting Barry when he wasnt

8) Making us the ugliest team in the league , , regularly

9) Rendering the best pair of attacking full backs in Europe impotent with his insistence on making them staying home in order to keep possession

10) Bringing in Alcaraz to cope with a powerful pacey attack, thus blowing our only chance of Glory

11) Standing with a gormless look on his face as opponent managers put up a couple of banks of four in front of us

12) standing with a gormless look on his face as opposing managers pressed high up the field forcing his defender into error after error.

13) somehow managing to not sign a player with a creative bone in his body - despite spending 54 million quid.

14} Failure to practice defending corners

15) Failure to practice attacking corners.

16 Turning up a Newcastle without any plan of who was playing where

17) making a complete prat of himself by not laying the law down regarding who takes penalties.

18) failing to entertain the Goodison faithful for virtually an entire season - God Job Man U played ball and opened up.

19) Repeatedly getting selections wrong

20) Repeatedly getting tactics wrong

21) playing at least 7 defensive minded players at home

I Hope that answers the claims that the "Robbie out camp" donÂ’t have valid reasons and can only ever offer invective. . .or want to cloud the issue by changing the subject.

The problem with listing reasons why Martinez should not be our manager is you are far more likely to develop RSI than run out of reasons.

Andy Crooks
179 Posted 21/05/2015 at 21:53:13
Darren, you could also add the performance at Southampton when no changes were made to a side who were having a nightmare and didnÂ’t look remotely like turning the game around.
Paul Andrews
181 Posted 22/05/2015 at 06:06:28
Morning Darren,

Can I ask where you got the information Martinez stayed away longer than any other manager?

You have compiled a comprehensive list of your reasons why you think he should go. Fair play to you if thatÂ’s your take on it. They have to be valid points though if you are going to use them

Andrew Ellams
184 Posted 22/05/2015 at 08:51:40
With 10 days to go we were within touching distance of the relegation places but we are in a good chance of finishing 16 points clear. I am by no means in the Â’Martinez is the futureÂ’ camp, but that alone makes it tough to sack him.

22 points from the final 30 is impressive in anybodyÂ’s book.

Conor McCourt
185 Posted 22/05/2015 at 11:58:57
Darren, the problem with your list is that most of it is unsubstantiated drivel. I donÂ’t mean that to be rude but very little can be backed up and is just your opinion.

For example, you claim our full backs are impotent under Roberto yet during his tenure Baines has been the top LB for assists and Coleman the top RB for goals in the entire Premier division. Wow, thatÂ’s some impotency!

We donÂ’t practice corners yet Jags has just scored his best tally from them in his 15-year career.

But IÂ’m glad I read your post as previously I wanted Roberto to stay but after reading your unbiased view I realize we have clearly the worst manager in the league (22 bullet points and 4 paragraphs full of reasoned debate) so I now want him sacked after reading what an imbecile he is. I just bought my 2017 Champions League final ticket as surely we will be playing there after getting rid of this disaster we will surely run away with the Prem title next season. Oh hold on, he led us to our best ever Premier League points tally, Ebay it is then.

I did however like the irony of your post when you accuse Robert of telling lies with your very own lie. He did say he wanted 6 or 7 players but after having well over 㿀 million left over from the Felli, Anichebe and Jelavic less Mac money and two sets of TV deal money, Roberto expected a lot more than the miserly 㿌million he was given after saving for 3 transfer windows. It wasnÂ’t until he met with our frugal board that he realized what he was getting so he sacrificed quantity for quality. Are you for real when you say that he doesnÂ’t want to improve the squad? He talks of nothing else.

Nigel Gregson
186 Posted 22/05/2015 at 13:09:27
Conor #185 - Thank you for restoring some of my faith on these forums.
Ross Edwards
188 Posted 22/05/2015 at 13:48:07
Conor, how is all of DarrenÂ’s list Â’unsubstantiated drivelÂ’? Just because you are blind to MartinezÂ’s many mistakes this season, it doesnÂ’t mean itÂ’s drivel.
Darren Hind
190 Posted 22/05/2015 at 14:20:03
Connor... UNSUBSTANTIATED??? WHAT MORE EVIDENCE DO YOU NEED???

We KNOW he didnÂ’t pratice corners, because the players told us so... and so did his coach;

We KNOW he got back late from Brazil because we saw him on the box;

We KNOW Goodison boiled over with frustration because only the seriously Mutton amongst us wouldnÂ’t have heard it;

We KNOW he dropped Robles when he was playing well – we all witnessed him do it;

We KNOW he brought Spoonfeet back in when he was playing shite because again we witnessed it;

We KNOW he played Barkley and Lukaku when they were injured because the silly twat told us so;

We KNOW he didnÂ’t drop Barry or Howard because they are still in the bleeding team;

We KNOW he has stood with a gormless look on his face when we couldnÂ’t break down two banks of four because we are sick to death of seeing it;

We KNOW he dropped and subbed Besic because we saw him do it;

We KNOW he didnt have a game plan at Newcastle because a guy who played – and was in the dressing room – told us;

We KNOW he didnÂ’t lay the law down over penalties because since he told us Baines is the penalty taker, only Barkley and Lukaku have taken them;

We KNOW he has served up the ugliest of football because many of us have been unfortunate enough to have paid good money to be insulted by it;

We KNOW he promised to bring in 6/7 players and we know he didnÂ’t do it... how did that get to be MY lie?

I can quite easily come up with 50 reasons right here and now as to why he shouldnÂ’t be our manager, but whatÂ’s the point? You and a few others will simply stick your fingers in your ears and go "la, la, la".

Unsubstantiated??? I just hope you donÂ’t get called up for jury service next time thereÂ’s a mass murderer in the dock.

Unsubstantiated? ...fuck me

Amit Vithlani
191 Posted 22/05/2015 at 15:21:58
Conor @ 185

" For example you claim our full backs are impotent under Roberto yet during his tenure Baines has been the top LB for assists and Coleman the top RB for goals in the entire Premier division. Wow, thatÂ’s some impotency!"

Slightly selective set of statistics here, Connor. Looking at EPL stats, Baines has 9 assists, yes, but his crosses are well down on prior years – he has 91 crosses this year versus 141 last year and 241 the year before. There is a good chance that the sheer volume of additional crosses would have indirectly contributed to goals, which unfortunately is not picked up the assists. What is also noticeable is he has no goals from open play this season, whereas in prior seasons he chipped in with a couple of goals.

Coleman was a bigger attacking threat last season that this season. He scored 6 goals and took 24 shots compared to 15 shots and 3 goals this season.

The relevant comparison here is how our full backs compare to their previous seasons and this season there has been a change in how these players have been deployed.

One other area to pick you up on. "With the exception of the disastrous Traore and perhaps McGeady not living up to his billing, even though a nominal fee and 2nd in assists for us this season, all of the rest of his loans and permanent acquisitions have been excellent."

I think you need to add Atsu to your list alongside Traore and McGeady as he has not been "excellent" . I would also question whether Arouna Kone has been " excellent " at any point – probably quite good, but 1 goal and 1 assist in 17 appearances this season is not really "excellent" in my book. I would agree that he has been terribly unlucky with his injuries, and that he has lost a yard of pace that he had at Wigan. But, it was a huge risk, at ٤M, to buy a 29-year-old who had previously had a knee ligament injury. Add that to the debacle of signing Traore when he was clearly unfit and McGeady who could not feature regularly due to a lack of fitness points to a weak spot in MartinezÂ’s transfer approach on gambling with players who have fitness issues.

James Martin
193 Posted 22/05/2015 at 16:06:56
As soon as he dropped Robles for Howard he lost me. ThatÂ’s when he proved he is not interested in results. DonÂ’t even want to get into my feelings on his selection of Grandad Barry.
Denis Richardson
194 Posted 22/05/2015 at 16:20:20
It’s a slightly odd situation to be in when you want the manager gone – every good results pushes that wish a bit further out... and yet you don’t want the blues to get bad results.

All I can hope for is that the spanish one somehow gets an epiphany and realises he has to change a lot of the things he did this season as they clearly didnÂ’t work, for whatever reason. The season is now done (thankfully) and the only two things to focus on are sorting out the squad and getting a proper preseason in.

I’m still of the opinion that Roberto has had an ok stint in the transfer market, at best. He’s not pulled out any gems yet (Lukaku and McCarthy are both good players but did not come cheap and were hardly unknowns) and his bargain hunting, whilst not costing us much, has not really brought us anything useful (ie, McGeady, Alcaraz and god only knows what happened with Eto’o). Kone is the one failure so far but no manager can make good with every transfer so I’ll let that one go – who knows what he would have been like without the injuries. So that brings us to now....

No World Cup or Europa league this summer to cause distraction, we MUST have a decent transfer window this summer to have any chance of getting back to where we should be, which is around the top 6. The manager has to prove heÂ’s worth the ٢M odd salary he gets paid this summer - nevermind the first 10 games of next season. The moment the final whistle blows tomorrow heÂ’s got to get down to the business of sorting the squad out. We really need to clear out some oldies and bring some fresh youth, pace and hunger back into this team. Too many players walk into the team without competition, itÂ’s gotten too easy for some.

Phil Walling
195 Posted 22/05/2015 at 16:49:11
Darren, you are wasting your breath (rather keystrokes). Everton have won a handful of games this backend and most supporters only look at/remember current form.

The gloomy days of winter are long forgotten and your list of other charges overlooked. What they see in this guy, I have no idea......although he did win the Cup somewhere.................!

James Stewart
196 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:03:51
@190 Phil is right its wasted breath unfortunately but cracking post all the same.
Mark Riding
197 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:17:36
BK said on Wednesday that Martinez is regularly still at Finch Farm until midnight working. This shows, to me anyway, that he is still hungry for success at our club. As always, the anti Martinez lads donÂ’t put up a credible name who they want as his replacement.
Graham Mockford
198 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:27:13
Phil,

Fuck me you can be sanctimonious sometimes. Obviously Â’most supportersÂ’ havenÂ’t got your wider grasp of footballing matters.

However, I remember last season when you looked a bit of a div when we took a record points haul despite your doom mongering.

This year however you have been at it like a dog with a bone. So let me look at the whole of MartinezÂ’s tenure rather than Â’current formÂ’.

A better win ratio than Moyes, Smith, Royle and HK after his first two full seasons. And yes he did win a Cup, which given the side he managed was quite a fucking achievement.

Joe Foster
199 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:23:47
A lot of crystal ball gazers on here who seem to know how marvellous RM is going to do in the future but can not see whatÂ’s been happening right in front of them.
Ross Edwards
200 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:36:59
Win ratios mean nothing Graham. You could have a 55% percentage like Villas Boas did at Spurs for example and do fuck all, or you could have a 38% win percentage like one of his predecessors Juande Ramos did and have a trophy to your name.

Martinez could end his tenure with a win percentage less than Moyes but if he wins a trophy, that fact becomes irrelevant.

Geoff Evans
201 Posted 22/05/2015 at 17:18:54
Wondering, having read all the previous spreads in this article, is Martinez the Spanish for Marmite?

Linda Morrison
202 Posted 22/05/2015 at 18:08:31
IÂ’m thinking that BK will see what the position is around November and make a decision then. IÂ’m not really sure about Martinez, he really lifted the players in the first season but this season has been a misery.

He will have no distractions next season and needs to prove his worth or he will be gone by Xmas

Colin Glassar
203 Posted 22/05/2015 at 18:15:27
December will be the crucial month, Linda, but IÂ’m quietly confident we will be back at the top end of the table at that point.

I love marmite, btw.

Conor McCourt
204 Posted 22/05/2015 at 18:06:57
Amit, you have misread my point. I was saying Alcaraz and Kone have been poor signings mostly through injury but I feel they have been used to hang Martinez record on. The excellent signings were his big ones plus I think Galloway, Robles and Besic will be good for the future and Dellboy, Barry and Lennon were excellent loans. I agree with Atsu. I was making the point that you canÂ’t truthfully say he has been a disaster in the transfer market whether you want him to stay or not.

Obviously Amit this season we are going to be nearly worse in every department than last year, the league position tells you that. As players lose confidence they donÂ’t do the things they should do especially when fear creeps in. But Darren was making the point that Roberto has ruined these players, his overall tenure refutes this and you are comparing both years of Martinez reign anyhow.

I donÂ’t think any fan thinks Martinez is blameless. Things like his the balance of the team, not pressuring the board when is stock was high for the 6 players he wanted, not replacing Dellboy with similar quality and putting all our eggs into europe are obvious mistakes he has made and our league form has suffered.

I donÂ’t feel he is a hero after a few victories but nor do I think he is zero for our poor 1st half of the season. There are key reasons as to why this was always going to be a tough season if not the disaster it turned out to be.

In January, I posted we would finish top half and had 25 responses telling me I was nuts, delusional and a dreamer when all around were talking of relegation (1 idiot said we would finish with 28 points). The reason of my confidence was that were other factors not just blaming all and asunder at the hands of the manager.

I have no problem with people who have doubts about him going forward but when people make points like we have played 1 good game all season then its hard to acknowledge even genuine points as they are so laced with bias. I have mates who are Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd fans and even in the first half of the season when we struggled they were telling me that we were the best team they had faced despite getting 1 point from those 3 games.

Chris Feeley
205 Posted 22/05/2015 at 18:29:50
Go, but as long as there is this much of a divide and weÂ’re not in the relegation zone next March itÂ’s unlikely to happen.

IÂ’ve never looked forward to 3 months without meaningful football; in years gone by I wouldnÂ’t know what to do with myself. However, after this season, I feel like IÂ’ve been in an abusive relationship and can look forward to some respite where I can build up my courage to do it all again in August.

The long and short of it is that I didnÂ’t enjoy going to the game this season. Moyes played dull and often uninspiring football, but this season was far worse in my opinion. I will begrudgingly renew my season ticket, but I doubt anything will change. As much as Kenwright has a lot to answer, Martinez has the title that holds him responsible for making Everton irrelevant. I really donÂ’t want him to ruin any more of my Saturdays, but unfortunately I think the divorce will prove far too costly.

Patrick Murphy
206 Posted 22/05/2015 at 19:54:19
Conor - The Arsenal and Chelsea games were very early in the campaign and the fact we ran out of steam in both matches suggests we didnÂ’t do enough to earn more points than we did from those matches and the same could be said at Old Trafford. I would rather we had won the points in all of those fixtures rather than the proverbial pat on the head from opposing supporters even if they did mean what they said about Everton being the best team they had faced up to that point in the season.

Name me one other Premier League game apart from Man U at Goodison where we looked over 90 minutes anything like the team we should be? Admittedly the Europa League provided some good performances and the FA Cup replay at West Ham in January another, perhaps if I was being charitiable the performance last week was good for the most part, but other than those games the rest were pretty average at best.

Conor McCourt
207 Posted 23/05/2015 at 01:38:10
Patrick, I donÂ’t know how good you think we should be. We are 7th best squad in the division at best. We dominated Arsenal for 80 mins and I agree with your assertion but they are a class team and we made them look ordinary. Had Distin not been there we win 2-1 and itÂ’s a great performance and result.

We played Southampton the other week who are similar to us and we disposed of them comfortably.

I think since the turn of the year and especially since Stones came into the team we have been playing well. As I said earlier most of our top performances came in Europe and next season I would expect it to be different with Distin out of the team, perhaps Dellboy to give us balance and no europe or WC hangover to distract us.

Again I stress no Evertonian is happy with this season but its easy to support the team in the good times. Dont forget how electric we were last season Patrick, so its not like the man has no credentials.

Paul Andrews
208 Posted 23/05/2015 at 07:08:36
ThatÂ’s it in a nutshell Conor. Love him or hate him he is our manager for the foreseeable future.

All Evertonians should support him and the players.

Darren Hind
209 Posted 23/05/2015 at 10:11:23
There you go again Conor . . have you actually seen Everton play this year ?

"Been playing well since the turn of the year ??? Â’w

Darren Hind
210 Posted 23/05/2015 at 10:13:45
WeÂ’ve been abject for most of 2015. The win against Southampton which you describe as "comfortable" would have put a glass eye to sleep it was dire boring shite.

I notice your little claim "itÂ’s easy to support a team when they are playing well" Well its apparently far easier to happy clap when we havent. I have spent between 40/50k following this team since we last won a trophy and so have many others . .so please refrain from hinting you are superior by happy clapping the dross we have been subjected to all season. . . Try asking any season ticket holder how many times heÂ’s been entertained ?

Last year was not "electrifying" we were very impressive in half a dozen games, but most of our victories were attritional,

If you, as you claim, have mates who support Arsenal and Chelsea who think we are the best team they have played this season I can only conclude they have been smoking the same stuff as you.

You seem to believe Happy clapping an under achieving manager is a positive way to support your team. It isnÂ’t, it merely tells the board that you are really quite content with the mediocrity that has been repeatedly served up this season

Paul Andrews
211 Posted 23/05/2015 at 11:41:55
22 points out of the last 30 available is Champions League form.
The figures suggest we have indeed been playing a lot better.
Jim Lloyd
212 Posted 23/05/2015 at 11:43:28
IÂ’m not so sure we just ran out of steam Patrick. I think Steven Pienaar going off early on, left a massive gap in our attacking play. I think weÂ’ve missed him for the rest of this season as well.

They could bring on world class subs, where we could not. I thought we showed how well we could play but we needed top quality subs and we havenÂ’t got them. I think the quality of our play was shown by how relieved Arsenal were with the draw. (YouÂ’d think theÂ’d just won the league!)

I also think that in the Chelsea game our weakness in defence was shown up by some great incisive football. I donÂ’t see the result reflecting the game though. When it was 5-3, we had just seen a shot turned onto the post by a great save, we saw them playing for time, especially by Gary Cahill, towards the end.

What could easily have been a 5-4 thriller became a 6-3 "battering" according to the media, after young Besic tried a backheel which worked perfectly... for them. So, two top teams and we felt gutted by the results... they didnÂ’t.

I didnÂ’t come away from the Arsenal match thinking we were lucky to scrape a draw. I came away totally pissed off by the result, not our football.

I didnÂ’t come away from the Chelsea match thinking weÂ’d got a hiding. I felt that weÂ’d give them at least 3 goals, yet were near got back on terms with them and were the ones pushing them back, until Mo did his party piece. I think that result knocked a lot of confidence out of the team.

I agree with Connor. I think that we have played better towards the end of the season; but IÂ’m by no means "happy" about this season either.

We started the season off well but not got the results we wanted. It began to go downhill; and for that, I see a number of reasons.

The point that Connor made about support, is a good one. If you have a grudge with the manager or donÂ’t think heÂ’s up to the job is one thing. But there is a psychological effect you can have as a supporter, on the team, for good or bad.

It is easy to support a winning side and I hope we never get to the stage of mindlessly chanting to the beat of a drum either as some clubs do. But this season, IÂ’ve sat in the Bullens Road and heard the boos against young Barkley because heÂ’s not playing well. ThatÂ’s bound to do his confidence the world of good.

Last season, we were electric on occasions... so much so, the crowd were singing the "School of Science" throughout the game. On other occasions, we werenÂ’t; on a lot of those occasions, we won.

So, to me, this manager has shown last season he can manage a team to play good, flowing, successful football. This season, he has shown that. I think there are reasons for our performances this season. I donÂ’t say that our manager should go. I say he should stay and be given the chance to build his team.

Patrick Murphy
213 Posted 23/05/2015 at 12:32:09
We all see the games differently; we all have different views on what is good and what is bad. Don’t forget – I supported Roberto for the majority of his tenure but, towards the middle of October onwards, I began to question his selections and his methods. I still want him to do a good job at Goodison but the signs aren’t looking too good.

Much, as ever, will depend on what happens in the transfer window; we have to hope that he can improve the squad and then, when it all starts again in August, he can put out the best team available and they are good enough to beat other Premier League teams often enough to gain points.

But more importantly, that the team play with fire in their bellies and fight for every ball, tackle and shoot on goal as we know they are capable and hopefully add a little bit of flair to the proceedings.

Conor McCourt
214 Posted 23/05/2015 at 12:51:54
Darren, that wasnÂ’t a dig at you when I said itÂ’s easy to support the team when they are playing well or an implication Martinez supporters are superior. It was merely an admission that we havenÂ’t been as good as weÂ’d like this season but I was just making the point not to have short memories as I believe sacking this manager would be like cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

Incidentally it costs me a lot more than the average supporter to follow Everton so don’t use that rubbish as part of your argument. We pay silly money because we love our team – not because we expect them to win and have no divine right to do so.

But in reality I donÂ’t think there is any point debating with you as from your comments you will never be won over by Roberto as, for he or any other manager, it will be so tough improving on last season both in terms of results and performances but even that didnÂ’t impress you judging by your Â’attritionalÂ’ comment.

Just out of curiosity, who do you want to replace him?

Jim Lloyd
215 Posted 23/05/2015 at 13:27:55
Yes, Patrick, thatÂ’s true. We all have our views on every match. I was also having doubts about Roberto, in fact I thought he was losing it when results werenÂ’t going our way.

I think that we have a decent manager but I do have doubts now. However, if I look at last season and how good we were, IÂ’d like to see what he can do this coming season.

Yep, his second season has been poor in comparison... but Moyes ended up 17th, I seem to remember. IÂ’d like to see who he brings in. I hope that we spend out to get the best schemer we can lay our hands on. I think we also need to buy someone in who will allow Ross Barkley to come into the team on a more gradual basis.

If we keep the top players we have, weÂ’ve got a good young goalscorer, a top class young midfielder, a top class young centre half, a top class right fullback, possibly two good young fullbacks/centre halves, a decent/good young goalkeeper, an exciting young midfielder who could become top class. (Ross ainÂ’t there yet imho.)

IÂ’m not against us getting Aaron Lennon, but I think IÂ’d be saving most of our cash for the "schemer". We need a left winger and possible another goal scorer. I doubt that funds will allow us to get them all, so weÂ’ll have to wait and see.

Ben Jones
217 Posted 23/05/2015 at 23:12:28
Good style of football, good manager, first proper striker we have had for over 10 years, 2 of the best young England players, great first season.

Yes, we have been poor this season, I agree, but people have small minds, how good was he in his first season? How people were singing the praises, the School of Science is back blah blah blah. Now HE HAS TO GO!!!!! It does my head in.

He deserves one season to prove himself, his first season gave him that. And I hope he does it and proves himself.

And then the short minders, Moyes finished 17th in his second year. GET RID GET RID GET RID. Yet he did really well for us.

So letÂ’s stop acting hastily and support Roberto instead of us loose cannons on ToffeeWeb say get rid after one tough season.

We can argue about all the details as much as you want. He has one fantastic season, he has one crap season. If he has another crap season, heÂ’s gone. But donÂ’t get rid now because people forget how good we were last season.....

Steve Carse
218 Posted 24/05/2015 at 00:19:41
Even as recently as a decade ago Evertonians would never have been calling for the head of a manager whoÂ’d achieved a top 5 place in his brief tenure. But the PL has moved on. The gap between our club and others who we have always at least been the equal of is getting bigger and bigger every season, to the extent that the majority now believe that we can never again challenge for, never mind win, the league.

But for half a season in 2013-14 we thought the miracle was taking shape. To then come so harshly and quickly back to reality has meant that for many the search for the miracle worker who will take us back to the top simply has to continue. With the pace of advancement at the top clubs in English and European football I canÂ’t disagree.

And to think, 30 years ago we were better than Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich....

Paul Andrews
219 Posted 24/05/2015 at 08:50:06
Ben Jones, Good post mate.

Martinez is two years into a long-term plan to turn this club around. ItÂ’s all well and good for the knee jerk reactions to want him out after a relatively disappointing season. If we stand by him and give him the breathing space to develop the squad, I believe we will be rewarded.

It may take another three transfer windows until he can develop the squad to his requirements,sell players and bring others in who are more in line with his football philosophy. DonÂ’t forget, he is restricted on transfer budget so is forced to do it more slowly than if he had a decent amount to spend.
We havenÂ’t won a trophy for 20 years now. I obviously canÂ’t guarantee Martinez will have us competing for top 5/6 or getting to finals if given the time to develop the club. We can change managers every two years, I can guarantee that wonÂ’t get us anywhere.

Jim Lloyd
220 Posted 24/05/2015 at 09:35:09
Spot on Ben.
Darren Hind
221 Posted 24/05/2015 at 20:59:50
They say you "get the team you deserve"...

How true. How people can continue to apologise for this guy is beyond me.

Once again "Barrbees" troops were booed from the pitch today. Another prideless, gutless, performance when the opposition fans had such fun cheering our alehouse football.

You may deserve this team but those of us who expect and want more donÂ’t.

Paul Andrews
222 Posted 24/05/2015 at 23:07:50
The manager can and should be held responsible for any lack of a tactical plan for todayÂ’s game. "Prideless and gutless performances" have to be the players fault.
Paul Jeronovich
223 Posted 24/05/2015 at 23:07:49
Give him 10 games, with some decent signings and a good pre-season I would expect an improvement. Plus no Europa League, there can be no excuses. If next season has a whiff of this campaign then he needs to be sacked early.
Darren Hind
224 Posted 25/05/2015 at 07:56:05
Paul Andrews

Its a good job the club doesnÂ’t own a cat. or you would be pointing your accusing finger directly at it right now.

YouÂ’ve excused your idol throughout this seasons blaming everyone else from the crowd to the players. Yet no matter who plays we stick the house out.

We were being humiliated as Tottenham fans shouted out their OleÂ’s
Yet none of our players would break ranks and even though we were losing from early on, we still did not get enough men forward in a game that should have been an Entertaining. The guy brought what he himself describes as his "number six" when we were losing at home . . AT HALF TIME ! !.

These were the managers tactics and THAT was what was prideless and Gutless.
The signs are there for all to see and once again you cant see them. You will never see anything wrong in this guy. You have argued and blamed others at every point against him all season and he has proved you wrong at every turn.
Was that another record set by "Barbeeee" . . the most booÂ’s ever received in different games by any Everton manager in a single season ?
ItÂ’s ok to have a semi decent season and a truly desperate one . . but you need to do it the right way round, show improvement. we are going downhill at an alarming rate. I believe that by not sacking this guy right now, the Everton board are merely delaying the inevitable.

Anyway. IÂ’m done debating Martinez. The season is over. I will not hold my breath waiting for him to sign the player his acolytes believe will change our fortunes. IÂ’m absolutely convinced he wouldnt recognise them even if he could afford them.
IÂ’ll leave you guys to your further disappointment. IÂ’ve had my fill of mine

Trevor Peers
226 Posted 25/05/2015 at 09:02:25
The season has finally ended, I think at any other club with an illustrious history like ours, there would be an Immediate inquest.

The deterioration in entertainment, morale and leadership would lead the owners to conclude that the manager must be replaced before things are allowed to get even worse.

But because the owner is as clueless as the manager that inquest is not going to happen. To suggest we allow Roberto rebuild the club from top to bottom after witnessing this seasonÂ’s displays is truly terrifying. That will seal our fate and we will become the next Leeds United or Wigan, by the time he swaggers off into the sunset. To take over at another unsuspecting club no doubt.

Paul Tran
227 Posted 25/05/2015 at 10:20:48
I liked him last season. Solid defence, sold overrated midfielder, brought in 2 good centre mids, sold awful striker, brought in better one, appeared to Â’getÂ’ the club.

CanÂ’t stand him this season. Porous defence, poor fitness management, unbalanced team selection, painfully slow passing, lack of penetrative and energy.

IÂ’ve come to the conclusion that Martinez played a blinder last season and has been found out this one. You find out about people in adversity and heÂ’s come up short on most fronts this season.

All he had to do was stick to last seasonÂ’s efforts and weÂ’d have finished top four. The league is so poor; Man Utd have spent millions and look no better than us last season, getting fourth with less points.

Taking this squad to 11th playing awful football is a sacking offence for me. His work this season gives me no confidence in him whatsoever.

I hope IÂ’m wrong and he changes for the better. If I owned the club IÂ’d be considering Bilic or Warburton.

Colin Glassar
228 Posted 25/05/2015 at 11:02:15
I have to agree with you in the main, Paul. Martinez, and Rodgers, will keep their jobs solely based on last seasonÂ’s performance. If they hadnÂ’t had such good seasons last time, theyÂ’d both have been sacked today.

Next season Martinez will have to get off to a flying start otherwise he will be in big trouble by October.

Dave Abrahams
229 Posted 25/05/2015 at 10:52:53
Ben (#217) even up to a few weeks ago, I thought Bobby deserved another season, based on last years results and performances, but in the last few games IÂ’ve seen no indication that Martinez will change his style.

Yesterday was like the previous games, so slow and no link-up play, pegged back in our own half with the players looking like they couldnÂ’t wait for the game to be over.

I look at teams like Leicester City and Crystal Palace with the pure energy and pace they play with and then I look at our pedestrian walk about style and the future looks bleak to me under this very stubborn manager, IÂ’m convinced he wonÂ’t change so it will benefit us supporters if he goes as quickly as possible.

Paul Andrews
230 Posted 25/05/2015 at 12:07:52
Darren,

Firstly he is not my "idol".

In my opinion he will be a good manager in the long term for Everton. I have never "blamed the crowd", I am not even sure what you mean by that one. "Blamed the crowd" for what?

Bearing in mind you gave the opinion earlier on in the season that " the players took it upon themselves to change the style of play" ,why do you reckon they didnÂ’t change the style of play yesterday?

Again,only in my opinion,it was a typical end of season performance.A very poor performance from the players.

The manager doesnÂ’t escape blame either if his tactics are wrong.Once the players go over the white line their desire,attitude and will to win is down to them.

Do you class last seasons record points total since the Prem started 23 years ago as " semi decent"?
If you do I have to disagree with you.

Geoffrey Risebrow
232 Posted 25/05/2015 at 22:28:18
Everton played some fantastic football in 2013-14 but Roberto Martinez should be judged solely on this season and quite simply, we have played dreadful, boring, going-nowhere football!

Playing for a draw at home to a distinctly average Liverpool team was unforgiveable and not acceptable for our great club! The four defeats over Christmas were disgraceful and he should have been sacked after the Hull defeat. Sack Martinez now! This Â’giving him the first 10 games of next seasonÂ’ is a nonsense in my opinion.

Linda Morrison
233 Posted 26/05/2015 at 12:07:23
We all know that Martinez will not be sacked. I would be very surprised though if BK hasnÂ’t got a fall back position if by early November we are, again, out of the League Cup and in the bottom half of the league.

Taxi for Moyes who I was very unhappy with in the manner of his leaving but would move us on after this mess.

Dave Lynch
234 Posted 26/05/2015 at 12:20:51
Great managers can manage an average team and get the best out of them.

Just look at SAF in his last season, that team was full of average players but he managed to get them playing above and beyond their abilities.

Average managers cannot get the best out of a decent squad, see Moyes at Man Utd, Brenda at Liverpool and our very own Bobby Bullshit. He, like the others mentioned, is doomed to a career of mediocrity and failure...

Ian Smitham
235 Posted 27/05/2015 at 00:47:21
Michael or Lyndon, delete this if you feel fit. I love my ToffeeWeb and it is almost the only site I read. However, via Twitter I have become accustomed to a site that I think is the funniest thing on the Internet. RAWK_ meltdown. It makes me cry.

However, I have just read an article on it which I copy below. The link, weÂ’ll just read it, comments from a fellow professional

Monk has high praise for both managers as he compared their training methods ahead of the Merseyside derby, in which Rodgers came out on top with a thumping 4-0 win against Martinez's Everton.
"both very aggressive"

"Roberto and Brendan are both very aggressive in their work. What I mean by that is they've got a vision of what they want and they put that across in a very forthright way, and when it's obvious that they believe in it so passionately, it rubs off on the players. They both want a passing and possession game but probably with different spins on it."

"Martinez never really worked on set pieces"

"Roberto cared more about our tactical game being on point rather than the opposition. For instance, we never really worked on set pieces, which we probably should have done. Of course that might well be different with him in the Premier League. It was very attack-minded with Roberto, which was good, but defensively we were probably a little bit too open at times, especially when we went into the Championship. But I think it was Roberto's belief that if we could impose ourselves on the opposition, we would win more games than we would lose."

Gerard Carey
237 Posted 27/05/2015 at 13:02:44
Ian, 235, I think that just about sums up our manager. He has a philosophy of how the game should be played and is not for turning.The big challenge for him is that he will have to adapt and change or he will be out on his ear. If next season starts out like this one, the most he will get is 10 games. Good managers learn by their mistakes and it will be interesting to see if RM can. IMO I don't think he will.
Dominic Tonge
238 Posted 30/05/2015 at 20:06:41
The OP asked for reasons people thought Martinez should get another season.

I think our squad is markedly stronger than when he took over, Martinez sold Anichebe and Jelavic , he used the loan market well in his first season, culminating in our purchase of Lukaku, who we have bought on a deal that allows us to stagger the payments. At the least you must acknowledge that the deal is well structured from our point of view. I believe that Barry was bought to rotate with Gibson, not to play as many games as he has. I am aware this is just my opinion and not fact, but GibsonÂ’s injury meant that Besic was brought into the side too prematurely,

We have beaten a "top four" side, more than once. In fact watching us play Arsenal (who have been the architects of some of our most abject humiliations in the premiership) off the park had me purring. We went to old Trafford and won away with a guest appearance from the grim reaper. We dispatched Man Utd again this season. No more knife to a gunfight, I go to the games against the sky darlings thinking Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher might have to do a bit of squirming, and it makes me smile.

European away days this year were brilliant fun, Anyone who went to Lille knows how much fun, the metro station rendition of 㿨 grand! I will remember that for a long time, this was off the back of Mr MartinezÂ’s first season.

In his first season he led us to our record premiership points haul. This year which has been such a disappointment saw us miss out on Europe on the last day of the season (granted via the fair play league.)

EtoÂ’o was a big name signing, who it turns out did not share his bossesÂ’ football philosophy. Martinez got rid. Distin questions the boss, he is allowed to go to WHU, and eventually shown the door , whilst being given one last Goodson bow, if you agree with the cameo or not from a tactical standpoint, it was a decent gesture. He has not been held to ransom with Garbutt and the no one is bigger than the club approach is ok with me, it worked for Fergie. Kevin M was making noises about leaving, and some were questioning his work ethic and contributions, Martinez gets Lennon in, who the players themselves admitted embarrassed them with his effort and this led to us somewhat turning the corner taking something like 22 points from 31 towards the end of the season.

He has realised we need a scheming number 10.

I think Besic was a good buy, McCarthy too, I think Lukaku is a good option up front(although I would like to see a second striker , and would sell my kidney to ensure it wasnÂ’t Kone) . He is not the finished article, but is a very talented young striker, with a very good return regarding goals. He has netted on the domestic,European and international stage this year, and has finished joint top scorer in the Europa league. I think Galloway might prove to be a good acquisition, and it seems that Browning may be given a chance next season, and we are looking likely to add Henen as a permanent acquisition too.

Our woeful season is what it is, not as woeful as some might paint it, not the glowing beacon of hope others seem to find it. I am not advocating the sacking of Martinez with this post, or saying he deserves to stay,Just giving reasons that could be offered in his defence. I think we have a much bigger problem than Martinez.


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