I suggest that many Evertonians think we need the following:
A 20-goal-a-season striker, a creative midfielder with guile, and a footballing central defender who can pass. We had all three... three players who are as good as any, in my view, that we have had in 15 years. Two have gone the other likely will follow them.
I know some will say: "What could we do? They wanted away." Well, I do not believe Liverpool would have sold Lukaku to Manchester United for £90 million, Stones to City for £47½ million, or sent Barkley to Chelsea for a medical... Never in a million years. Why not?
Because, whether Liverpool are a big club or not, they act like one. We act like a non-league club who drew Man Utd away in the FA Cup Third Round... Humble, grateful subservient, knowing of our place.
The relationship with Man Utd has stunk for years. They steal Rooney off us and hand him back when he is almost done. We get Howard, Gibson, Blomqvist, Neville, Saha, Cleverley, Schneiderlin... they get Lukaku and Fellaini.
The custodians of our club have a small-time mentality. In my view, they are self-serving and devoid of backbone, ambition, imagination and aspiration. The utterings of Mr Moshiri and his use of Jim White are toe-curling. Something is wrong, badly wrong.
We had an opportunity, we had the spine of a great team. To me, Lukaku, Stones and Barkley will be world class players. It should have been with us. We have small-minded men running our club. They aspire to Premier League status and the rewards that go with it. Profit and gain.
Koeman would not have been my first choice as manager but I thought it was an okay appointment. I think he was brought in as a safe pair of hands. Sadly, our self-serving guardians aren't even good at that.
Reader Comments (181)
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1 Posted 11/10/2017 at 03:27:21
While others were creating an infrastructure, employing professionals with a vision, a strategy. Our directors were busy assuring us it will "never happen again"... again.
While others were turning their old grounds into super stadiums, developing an infrastructure, a brand, our board were really having to don their thinking caps to find the funds to paint the Bullens Road bogs.
When the Arsenal board were planning and dreaming of Emirates, our board were waiting for someone to come along and offer them a Kirkby.
While we boast and posture about moving to palatial new surroundings, Daniel Levy will reap the rewards of spending years and years of painstakingly removing obstacles to ensure Spurs will be in theirs, we'll continue to wheel out fancy Yank architects to show us what we could have won.
Our boardroom has been inhabited by amateurs, imposters and selfish fuckers since the day Sir John cleared his desk. While serious owners operate professionally in the background. Ours thinks it's a good idea to go public with his inane babbling to some twat who still hasn't realised how fucking ridiculous he looks in a yellow tie.
I'm still kicking myself for buying into this brand new dawn. I thought I'd seen too much to be taken in by all this talk of moving into the big time. What the fuck was I thinking?
Look, Andy, for one reason or another, our club seems to have been stricken by some sort of curse. Our boardroom has been a magnate for the well meaning, the devious and the downright fucking greedy. While others invest in gold we continue to sell the family silver. Until we get a professional board in, we will always sell our best players.
For years, we have employed managers to toe the party line, we pay them handsomely to manage expectation and keep their gobs shut. The wages are good enough to buy their integrity. Moyes was perfect for them. Martinez simply kept his gob shut when he wasn't given the 7-8 players he said he needed. The wages were too good.
Big Joe walked out when the board refused to buy him the players he needed. Integrity. The chances of Koeman doing the same thing are virtually nil £6m a year buys that sort of "loyalty".
Amongst my favourite memories down the years are when Howard said "Fuck you" to a bleating Bayern Munich bench as his players set about them with a passion they couldn't live with... Or when Big Joe Royal looked across at Man United's all conquering manager at Wembley and simply winked as he screamed the house down. Or when Big Nev took the ball out of the air with one hand and looked around the United team of superstars with a look that said "Fuck off, I invented arrogance"
I'll take you point a step further Andy. We (The Evertonians) don't think we are worthy either. Whenever we have a vacancy for a manager, the first thing we do is scour Europe for the next fucking mercenary. Anyone who has found moderate success abroad is in the frame. It doesn't seem to matter that the only success we have tasted for half a century has been when we have one of our own in charge "we need a big name to attract big players"... what bollocks. They aren't coming anyway.
I don't want another foreign manager. I want a manager who knows this club, one who wont be taken by surprise by the amateur antics in the boardroom; one that will strive for success and play with passion in spite of it.
Rhino has no top flight experience, but then they none of them do to begin with. I don't just want him installed as boss because he has won the reserve league playing with flair and passion (although you can do no more than win the league you are in). I want him in because of an impression I've always had of him.
I remember him as a boy being pitted against a vastly superior and more experienced Mark Hughes in an FA Cup Final. I remember Mark Hughes trying every trick in the book, I also remember he got no change from a kid who, despite having limited ability, was proving himself a winner... an Everton winner. Fuck the boardroom shenanigans. This is how we do it.
I don't know if Rhino can become another Royle or Kendall. Being an ex player doesn't guarantee anything. My all time favourite player Colin Harvey proved that. I just know we need that sort of in-built arrogance and belief to overcome what is undoubtedly a disadvantage. I most definitely want him to be given his chance.
2 Posted 11/10/2017 at 06:04:07
3 Posted 11/10/2017 at 06:56:53
The biggest phony in football. While Kenwright has any involvement in the club, the poison will continue.
4 Posted 11/10/2017 at 07:02:00
5 Posted 11/10/2017 at 07:25:13
Andy's comments re the Red's fans clench-tight obstinacy to keep their club on a forward footing including at times repelling all other suitor clubs to keep the fuck off their players has to be lauded.
And let's face it, we all know Kenwright and the other Miserables would of been hounded the fuck out of their nests in probably one (alright, maybe two) short season(s) if they had owned Liverpool.
As for our (Man Utd's) feeder club status... Well, put it this way: when I meet any of their fans which is fairly often with my work, I just cannot even look them in the eye, and I fuckin mean that. The comments from them are always the same.."We hate Liverpool","but you guys are alright".
Fuck me I even (strangely) feel ashamed of bein a Scouser never mind a footy fan in those moments. So thanks, Blue "Kendall/Labone/Harvey etc" Bill, but no thanks: just plain Fuck Off... Parasite.
So wither do we wander (right) now?
Me? I'm all out of thoughts the stadium will now be on hold till the team is stable despite tbf the obvious financial rewards if built along with dock project but even that shower know we would look fucking stupid-like if a state of the art ground is built while,we flounder, or God forbid, if we languish in the Championship.
I think it's finally time for us all to stand up and be counted. I fear that, unless we start meaningful demonstrations/meetings whatever, we will just be spectators ad infinitum. That's at the end of the day I think all we will have left soon?
6 Posted 11/10/2017 at 07:32:33
Meanwhile, Koeman not even passing instructions to a single one of them, looking as if he is still not sure whether Pickford is playing in his right position as goalkeeper. Let us see what he did during these 2 weeks break.
7 Posted 11/10/2017 at 07:51:19
8 Posted 11/10/2017 at 07:58:19
Now that the misplaced wide-scale pant-wetting that followed the takeover of the club is surely over, we can get back to reality.
No massive player budget. No immediate top four ambitions. No world class players coming in. Business-first owner. Football last manager.
Best we can hope for is another manager that might "Get it" someway, or maybe the second coming of the "Fergie's kids" model from our academy.
Maybe then we'll battle, improve, avoid relegation, pull off the odd great result among the painful ones, and slowly, gradually, over time, start to build something in the only way realistically open to us... but something with spirit and meaning that might or might not lead to something more.
This assuming the culture of sell-the-assets is replaced, too. That one might be a little longer in the making.
9 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:00:46
This is a Dogs of War moment and we need a manager with that sort of fight.
10 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:19:42
11 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:31:41
12 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:47:07
In John Moores's day, if a player got a whisper Everton were after them they would crawl over broken glass to sign. Now it is United's cast-offs and a farcical amount of players for one position. Whoever sanctions this without question needs sacking be it Kenwright, Walsh or Koeman.
13 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:50:26
14 Posted 11/10/2017 at 08:51:23
The board are hoping that Koeman will turn the tide with some narrow wins against the "lesser"teams. All they want is to ensure Premier League survival. Kenwright and Woods have played the long game and Moshiri paid them their reward.
We are though, stuck in a rut. Despite the zillions of pounds sloshing around in our league, much of it is being creamed-off to agents, and huge wages to players and managers alike.
Reid calls for fight and wonders if this lot have the stomach for it? Koeman watches and waits, he plays his favourites, he collects his wages and if he is sacked, he gets compo. The football world all know his board let him down in their failure to get him a striker, so his reputation will survive. The job at hand is now to motivate the side, to find some balance and grow confidence.
Chris Coleman might be looking to return to the Premier League soon. He has bags of fight, can set a team up to defend and attack, and he has done it with average players (Gareth Bale and Ramsay excused).
I mentioned Sean Dyche as an alternative to Koeman at the end of last season and was ridiculed by a few TW diehards, but a year on, and people are speculating on the Arsenal job for him.
Something is rotting at Everton and if it isn't cut out, it will just spread.
15 Posted 11/10/2017 at 09:20:48
I made the comment that the Europa League tournament was useless, so was Koeman, and I hoped we got knocked out so we could dismiss Big Ron and concentrate on the Premier League. You went ballistic. Now you are pulling apart the setup you were defending a month ago.
Some of us have been on to Ronald Koeman since last season. Moshiri has also been on the bullshit radar for a while. Welcome aboard, mate, as you have now discovered we are not "anti-Everton" just worried fans concerned about the situation.
16 Posted 11/10/2017 at 09:24:50
Will (#8), no need to worry about all the assets getting sold off Kenwright has seen to most of them and yet thousands of Evertonians think he has done well for Everton.
17 Posted 11/10/2017 at 09:36:07
Our transfer business in and out since Koeman took over has been nothing short of abysmal.
18 Posted 11/10/2017 at 09:36:13
This is not a new problem though... time to maybe get the Blue Union mobilised.
19 Posted 11/10/2017 at 09:50:24
Eddy Dunn @14 makes a very astute point with "Kenwright and Woods have played the long game and Moshiri paid them their reward."
Personally, I feel that this club will never be free to grow again until we are rid of Kenwright he is like an evil spirit hovering over us.
20 Posted 11/10/2017 at 10:01:17
21 Posted 11/10/2017 at 10:12:17
22 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:10:04
How did Woods, Kenwright, Green & Earl get away with it for so many years? It was football's greatest con, and they will walk away with hundreds of millions between them, never mind what's gone on before the arrival of Moshiri with off-shore loans and 'The Mozart of money" directing his puppets.
Hats off to them, they pulled it off without breaking sweat.
23 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:13:46
I believe that he did want to find a relatively legit buyer, and not some obviously dodgy oligarch/Sheikh. However, he is a businessman himself, and it was clear that as long as Everton FC stayed in the Premier League, and showed a modicum of ambition, and looked like a club with potential, then he would, one fine day, ride off into the sunset with millions of spondoolies in his bank account.
Now I don't claim to know who puts money into the club, but since Kenwright and Woods received their pay-off, has either of them invested a penny into the club?
The new saviour Moshiri has covered our overdraft and helped us to operate financially, which I presume is a benefit. Long term, he too will most likely see a good return on his investment, as the TV money shows no signs of abating.
The only way we can tell if the club and it's backers are serious about building us up to regain our seat at the top table is if we see high-viz coats and plant all over Bramley-Moore and considerable investment in our squad. At present, we still sit meekly awaiting "concrete" news on the ground and we all know our net spend was underwhelming considering the Lukaku money.
How much longer will it be?
24 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:18:44
I made a shout for Ancelloti after I realised that our present manager had to be replaced. The only thing I can say in my defence was that I was thinking big. As a matter of fact some said I was thinking too big.
After having read your post, I am beginning to wonder if maybe Unsworth is the answer.
One thing is for sure: the whole club needs an immediate reality check and an injection of passion on the playing side before it is too late.
25 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:39:32
"To go hell for leather and give it a damn good crack is the Australian way. If we go down, go down fighting. Win or lose, it is at least bloody interesting. The better opposition know that they should beat us, but they are at least fearful and we have some fun on the way. The weaker opposition will sit back and try and catch us on the break, but most of the time we'll come out on top."
We're the complete opposite under Koeman .
26 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:42:23
The owners and executive at Everton aren't stupid, they know exactly what is going on at the club and where the faults lie, they know this far better than any fan because they run the club and fans can only speculate and often fantasise. I trust that the club will sort out the problems and that will probably mean that Koeman goes but it must be in their own time and on their own conditions and long term with the support of the supporters.
The only way that this can be done correctly is not with a knee-jerk reaction firing the manager a few weeks into the season but by doing the correct thing, having the correct succession plan in place and making sure that the reasons for the current poor performance have been identified and will be solved with new coaching. Knee-jerk reaction never achieves this; sacking the manager never achieves this if it's not done properly and fans are generally wrong concerning timing and who the replacement should be.
The Blue Union? Please be serious, guys.
Kevin, that is an absolutely amazing expose and the police and FA must be made aware of it. I'm prepared to help you bring the criminals to justice but could you please help with some links or documents?
27 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:46:16
This inaction may be due to procrastination, laziness or other subversive vice. As such, the saying is an admonishment that a good intention is meaningless unless followed through. Moral certainty can be used to justify the harm done by failing policies and actions. Those with good intentions believe their practices are good for the group; it is self-evident to them. They justify collateral damage in the belief they do a greater good.
I don't believe that any of the board members during Bill Kenwright's watch have lined their own pockets through illicit means although the interest payments paid to the BVI account may not have been as transparent as they ought to have been. Big business is a mystery to most of us and its most certainly the case that modern day football is a really big business.
As to the main thrust of the thread, losing players such as Lukaku, Stones, Fellaini and possibly Ross isn't the way to build a team capable of challenging the status-quo; moreover, when those players join those clubs that you are hoping to match or overtake. It matters little that the individual player may have wanted to leave or not because, like it or not the squad is weakened when you can't replace those outgoings with equal or better quality.
"Promises are piecrust," ie, easily broken, was one of my Gran's favourite sayings and the people who have been in charge at Goodison over the last few years have made so many promises that haven't been honoured, that they have turned a group of fans from realistic optimists into a cynical bunch who cast a wary eye on anything that they hear or read.
Therefore, the only real proof that the fans can accept as true, is what they see on the pitch, week-in & week-out, season-in & season-out, and for the most part that has reflected the limitations of the board during that period. It may not have been intentional but my god it most certainly has been footballing hell and I pray that it ends soon and the club matches its 'good' intentions with decisive and effective action.
28 Posted 11/10/2017 at 11:51:59
Addressing Greg Clarke, chairman of the Football Association, Everton season-ticket holder Matheson brought up the subject of "offshore entities" involved with football clubs.
During the exchange he claimed that Green, who is facing calls to be stripped of his Knighthood following the collapse of one of his former businesses BHS, summoned a club chief executive and former manager to his offices to hold talks over the club's transfers.
Matheson said: "I understand that Sir Philip Green had something of a role of shadow director at Everton, including having PWC (accountancy firm Price Waterhouse Cooper) conduct an audit of the club and summoning the chief executive and the team manager to BHS headquarters to discuss transfer budgets.
"If someone has paid for some shares through someone else and through an entity in the British Virgin Islands, but isn't a director, would that a problem?"
29 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:09:39
I think most of us feel exactly the same way as you do. Unfortunately, I cant see anything changing despite Moshiri coming on board.
I well remember when Abramovich took over at Chelsea, all the journalists and fans of other clubs said he was only here for the short term. Well I read the other day that he has pumped in nearly a Billion pounds since he took over.
Mansoor at City is pumping in enormous amounts of money in but even he has now been super-ceded by the Qatar government taking over at PSG. Now whether its right that Countries can own football clubs is right is another argument for another day. But don't be surprised to see Real Madrid and Barcelona be making objections to FIFA to try to stop it. As they along with 1 or 2 other clubs will not want their monopoly threatened.
So we have to go back to when Sir John was in charge and we could buy any player we wanted, and usually did. Those days there were very few overseas players in the top league then. So, in all this, it shows the common denominator to lasting success is money.
Now even with Moshiri on board we cant even challenge the elite in this Country never mind the rest of Europe. I think even more worrying is that Chinese investors with wealth to match the Qatar investors are looking at the dark side as a potential place to invest their billions now that would be worrying.
So I think at best 6/7th is the very best we can hope for in a good season, and in a bad season 11th to 18th. Sad as it is to contemplate.
30 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:22:48
Loans were taken out by Everton through offshore Companies because they couldn't get finance via normal institutions in the UK. At the time we were paying a reputed 9% for loans from the BVI, the company I was working for were paying 13% and they had oil and gas fields as surety. Many companies in the UK pay way over 9% even now for Corporate Bond Finance.
The reality is that nobody did anything illegal or even morally wrong. Green was guilty of many things and he's being prosecuted for illegal actions but providing the club with relatively cheap finance when it wasn't available anywhere was surely a benefit to the club.
Shadow directors? Again not a shred of evidence; I'm sure that conditions were attached to the loans but controlling the Club? Fantasy for me.
Fair comment, Lawrence@27
31 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:27:35
32 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:27:44
33 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:29:15
34 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:39:44
Just re-read Darren's post again, might get it printed out and frame it. Top post.
35 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:50:51
The appointment of Moyes was the right appointment at the time but he ran out of idea. The Premier League changed and moved on he didn't. Martinez and his theories were great on paper but failed to translate to a team that doesn't have that skillset or mentality.
Koeman on the other hand simply seems all kinds of wrong. He doesn't appear to have an idea other than to buy all the spare available #10s. I don't believe it should all be attributed to Koeman as I'm pretty sure the recruitment comes from Kenwright and Walsh. I place the lack of striker replacement firmly with them.
What Koeman is guilty of is allowing the negativity of the recruitment and absence of a striker to permeate the team as much as it has. It was always going to have an effect but he could have done something to motivate the players or structure the team to use the strengths we have. The current setup seems to emphasise the weaknesses.
The team massively lacks the balls and determination that Gareth Barry, Phil Neville and Tim Cahill exhibited. I recall the massive, full-blooded tackle by Neville that sparked the team and turned our season round that's what we need from all Everton players. That's the club we should be.
The current team is built on potential. That's it. It's missing the proven winners and strong leaders players who care massively if they lose. I don't see the players who get angry if they lose or have a right go at those who don't perform well. All we seem to hear is "Oh well, we lost again". No!! Don't get used to it or accept it change it!
36 Posted 11/10/2017 at 12:59:12
Do you think Everton has a right to be successful at all times. Do you think that the finance injected by Moshiri has no positive benefit?
37 Posted 11/10/2017 at 13:03:14
38 Posted 11/10/2017 at 13:28:19
"no complaints when we sold Lukaku", "no complaints when we appointed Koeman" etc.
Really? You must have reading TW in some alternative Universe!
39 Posted 11/10/2017 at 14:37:41
"No complaints when Stones was sold" â€“ pure bollocks, as I was very unhappy and I remain unhappy. I (one of many) have made my feelings known on that deal.
"No complaints about the sale of Lukaku" â€“ absolute bollocks. Plenty of opinions about the need to keep him on here.
You must have an amazing filter on your laptop to miss any of the above opinions posted on here. Is it set to opinions I agree with and the rest go straight to spam?
I also have to disagree with the opening line of the second paragraph. For the past 20 years there is not much evidence to support that claim. Our Board has acted with disregard to the future of this club for many years and to claim otherwise is just plain wrong. To criticise the Blue Union as well?
I am going for that pint now as you are a wind-up merchant and it has worked on me.
40 Posted 11/10/2017 at 15:27:08
However, I also thought that a test of the new regime was whether we kept our best players: Stones, Barkley and Lukaku particularly in mind.
The evidence since that initial excitement is that Everton have failed that test. Unlike the 60s, when we attracted the best like Alan Ball, we are still selling our best players. We are a feeder club for the bigger clubs.
It seems to me that Moshiri's ambition is less likely to be one of achieving top dog (Nil Satis Nisi Optimum), but one of getting us near the top (top-6?), there or thereabouts, contenders rather than habitual winners. Perhaps based on a cold business calculation of the fruits of being near the top, including being in the Champions League, where further investment to get us to the actual top of the heap is considered disproportionate to the business benefit.
Having said that, the sale of Lukaku for only 䀆M makes me question the business acumen of Moshiri and Co.
Unless we get someone with real mega-money, such as Usmanov, it's difficult to see us getting beyond the perhaps limited ambitions of Moshiri. And even achieving those limited ambitions seems a tall order at the moment.
I don't believe that Liverpool are much different from us these days, in that it seems likely that Klopp was hired for similar reasons to Koeman, ie, to get the best from limited resources, a la Dortmund and Southampton, respectively, whilst achieving fairly limited ambitions, which would no doubt satisfy many supporters.
But it doesn't necessarily satisfy supporters of a certain vintage, who have tasted real success at the top of the heap.
41 Posted 11/10/2017 at 15:27:34
Everton, like any other Premier League team, is run like a business (look at all the foreign owners, it is a form of revenue for them, better than the stock market). Players who want to leave and hand in transfer requests (Stones) have all the power. Lukaku, Stones and Barkley all want(ed) to leave (the agents have turned their heads also) and none of them would sign a new contract.
Everton are now left with valuable players who can run their contracts down and leave for nothing if they stay, costing the club approx 𧶀 million. No business would ever let that happen (maybe Arsenal being an exception this season, but Sanchez may be sold for some sort of fee in January). The people at the top in all football clubs are businessmen first, supporters second, so it's not just Everton who are to blame.
42 Posted 11/10/2017 at 15:41:49
Since the inception of the Premier League when we, Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and Spurs were recognised as "The Big Five", our board/s alone have been pathetic in their conduct right from the get-go. Managers have come and gone and have had to do their best with serious underfunding compared to Liverpool, United and Arsenal, not to mention City and Chelsea these days, and even Spurs. Moyes was by far the best in managing on this basis, others being various shades of "hopeless", with Big Joe the honourable exception.
Like Brian Harrison at #29 I just don't think Moshiri's going to be able to spend our way to Champions League qualification. Usmanov's worth is on a par with Abramovich and I guess only that sort of wealth will get us to, and then keep us in, the Promised Land.
Creating a new stadium will be a mega-achievement by Moshiri but I do worry that, rather than lose serious money by his standards, he may just pull out entirely to limit his losses unless something drastically better occurs this and next season on and off the pitch.
If he does pull out, we are truly fooked.
43 Posted 11/10/2017 at 15:52:56
I have opposed your extreme views many times but have to give you kudos for a well considered post that I wholeheartedly agree with.
When Moshiri came on board, cleared our debts, announced Bramley-Moore, and appointed a top notch management team I was only waiting for Kenwright to resign to make my day.
Now, 18 months later, I have allowed my positivity to get real and find that the "revolution" failed.
Koeman has lost interest, Walsh appears anaemic, the family silver continues to be sold off and we are still a feeder club for Man Utd and a home for their cast offs.
Go back to the start of the Premier League and we had won as many titles as Man Utd and were consider part of the "Big 5".
Fast forward, and we are now "plucky little Everton" potentially the best of the rest and even that is looking seriously overrated right now.
I firmly believe Machiavelli has been reborn as Kenwright and, until we get this divisive man out of our club, we will not recover our former status.
44 Posted 11/10/2017 at 17:35:31
The way Joe and Unsy in particular speak about the dressing room is truly amazing. I imagine Koeman's is like a morgue and it shows.
Amokachi mentions how Joe motivated them to win not just the semi-final against Spurs but the final too. The players did not doubt it thanks to the motivational qualities of a true Blue. When Unsy speaks, the passion is also obvious and lo and behold he is molding a new generation of winners too.
Check out the video if you like â€“ it speaks to me about the value of spirit in a way which keeps me hopeful during these dark days of being a fan.
45 Posted 11/10/2017 at 18:01:11
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? I told you so.
46 Posted 11/10/2017 at 18:03:13
47 Posted 11/10/2017 at 18:11:14
48 Posted 11/10/2017 at 18:46:48
Fellaini did some good stuff for us now and then, but mostly the Evertonian fans pumped their fists in the air when Moyes bought him at THAT sum for Man Utd!
He's surprised me at Man Urtd but really only after Mourinho got there to manage him! I actually wish him back, every now and then...
49 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:07:43
50 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:19:29
51 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:20:25
52 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:22:27
When Kenwright sold the majority of his shares to Moshiri, it initially seemed that our club could look forward to a return to its rightful place amongst the elite. Eighteen months later, we still haven't seen the back of Kenwright and Moshiri's witless communications via Jim White are an increasing cause for concern.
Kenwright has managed to preside over two of the biggest fiascoes in the history of the club with the grossly underpriced sales of Rooney and Lukaku to Manchester United, the one club I actually detest more than our neighbours.
The results may have been worse under Mike Walker, but the standard of football this season has been the worst I can remember in the 57 years I've been watching Everton and I am very disappointed Koeman hasn't been sacked.
The replacement of Stones with Williams and the alienation of Barkley followed by the recruitment of three inferior No 10s has been a complete shambles. When is this nightmare going to end?
53 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:30:15
Let that sink in.
54 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:41:19
Big Dunc (a legend to some) has been on our coaching staff for a few years (when the football has been shite). David Weir was a disaster for Sheff Utd, and Alan Stubbs ruined all Warnock's fab work at Rotherham.
British Moyes is British, 11 years with Everton then less than a season at 3 jobs since. That says a lot about the Everton board (Kenwright) and what is wrong at this once great club everything.
Like you say, Spurs new stadium, the Emirates... or a pillar and a wooden seat in the Bullens.
55 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:46:42
Firstly, it brought a response from Darren Hind, with whom I have fundamentally disagreed in the past, which was one of the best posts I have ever read on this site.
Secondly, it confirmed to me that we have great editors on this site. The editors turned what was a factually inaccurate post into the post I meant to write. Thank you Michael and Lyndon.
Also, I didn't mean it to be Martin Mason v the rest if the world. Martin, keep it coming.
56 Posted 11/10/2017 at 19:57:00
They might disagree at times, but they have far more common sense and genuine love for the club than the big knobs who will watch us walk into another Anfield mauling or grim defeat against the mighty Burnley and do absolutely nothing to stop our great club getting humiliated again and again.
Kenwright is a disgrace yet some supporters will back him.
57 Posted 11/10/2017 at 20:38:20
Yeah, great idea. We could fuck that crap "Z-Cars" off and have the Smiths "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now".
Just a thought.
58 Posted 11/10/2017 at 20:56:35
But I would prefer The Beatles being played even more!
59 Posted 11/10/2017 at 21:39:36
It continues to infect the opinions of the types of players we should be signing. Instead of focusing on how talented the player is, we have to endure constant posts by supporters about the sell-on value. Why in the holy hell would any of us care about the damn sell-on value? We're not seeing that money!
We had a talented spine and we've essentially used them to refinance because the people running the club have no intention of actually competing for a single thing. Just continue to exist in order to line their pockets, nothing more.
60 Posted 11/10/2017 at 21:41:30
61 Posted 11/10/2017 at 21:47:35
I was called small minded by I can't remember who, for saying Moshiri wouldn't fund player purchases on his own. He is only part owner and without the other 50% of owners dipping into their pockets and matching his contribution, it's not going to happen.
I agree Koeman is a waste of space and the sooner he goes the better, but the bottom line is especially in the long term, success is ruled by the quality of players which means spending big bucks.
62 Posted 11/10/2017 at 21:53:53
Many on here lambasted the board for paying 㿈 m for Lukaku and the fee for him was decent until PSG shifted the goalposts with crazy deals for Neymar and the French lad. Stones's fee was hailed as great business by many on this site and it remains to be seen whether he develops further. As for Fellaini, we were all delighted with a fee of 㿇m and we did pretty well out of Man Utd for that.
That apart, I fully agree that we have to get hardened professional business people running the club in the future and Farhad will hopefully show us what he is made of.
63 Posted 11/10/2017 at 22:08:51
What a bizarre opinion to have of the people who run football clubs and even more amazingly the people who run ours. One thing for sure is that the better we do then the better they do financially and this is absolute fact.
Why on earth would they have a lunatic strategy of not competing for anything when their big paydays will only come when we can manage to make the club a brand and start getting into the Champions League. Unless we can do this, and unless Moshiri ploughs his own money into the club then better than 7th is an impossibility because, as our TV income gets better, then so it does for all of our competitors.
We need to turn the present situation now around but irrational, grinding and destructive negativity isn't the way to do it. Constructive optimism is far harder but what I believe we as fans should have.
It was a gift for us that Moshiri came along to restructure our finances, make money available for players and to possibly make the new stadium happen in an iconic location. The hard part of the project is improving the team because we are outgunned financially and because getting players to join us isn't easy.
First go seems to have failed due to poor selection of Koeman but I believe that Moshiri pressed for this as Koeman was the successor that Arsenal had chosen for Wenger. It's failed so far... but it's up to the board to sort it out. I personally hope that Koeman goes but, if he and the club do manage to turn things around, then I'll be very happy.
64 Posted 11/10/2017 at 22:39:33
65 Posted 12/10/2017 at 06:24:27
Talking of Moshiri, he is talked about as a billionaire businessman, but, I ask, what business is he successful in? What is the core of his wealth gathering? It certainly seems to me that his football acumen is not a fundamental part of that business.
His knowledge of the game seems sadly lacking, hence his often inane pronouncements through his yellow-tied mouthpiece. And, we all know that in football, the dreaded management 'vote of confidence' for an under-pressure manager usually masks something more sinister. In Moshiri's case, however, I actually think he really meant it when he said Koeman had his full backing!
In other words, no matter how bad things become in the next few weeks (and I think they will get much worse), he will continue to back Koeman to the hilt. He was Moshiri's first choice for the job, after all.
Do we have to be relegated before he wakes up and realises what a disaster he has wrought on our once great club? Does anyone seriously think Bramley-Moore will come to fruition if we are languishing in the Championship or lower, God forbid?
Koeman has been failing since the final third of last season, his expectations for this season and not his own words were those of a failure, a man who has no real live for the club and who appears devoid of personal ambition and low self respect, ready to accept mediocrity as success.
There's talk of him being offered the Holland job now they're out of the World Cup. Please let it be true, and let him go and screw things up for his fellow countrymen. He has already screwed things up for us, bixxg time.
66 Posted 12/10/2017 at 07:37:18
67 Posted 12/10/2017 at 08:28:04
68 Posted 12/10/2017 at 09:18:34
Where would I find the evidence of this? The accounts that I've seen published have shown that the directors have taken nothing. The intention was I believe that they would make money when the club was sold and there is nothing illegal in this. I assume that Kenwright made money from the shares that he sold to Moshiri but again this is not illegal.
Have to file this along with the other Everton myths, it really is some file now.
69 Posted 12/10/2017 at 09:21:25
70 Posted 12/10/2017 at 13:51:06
Evident enough to see that we simply are not looking, being, anything like either we ought to be or that this unwelcome, self-inflicted state of affairs is at least promising to change anytime soon under the current hierarchy, management or board!! Still, I have tried to remain patient I just want us to be doing well, however we get there!
But I see more and more now indeed have 'come round' to the simple fact that those who should be leading our beloved club proudly and even arrogantly (as mentioned, justified arrogance in the face of others, not smugly saying 'Fuck You... we're just 'little' Everton what did you expect?" to our own supporters ffs!!) are letting all us Blues fans down big-time!!!
71 Posted 12/10/2017 at 18:02:07
I agree with every word.
72 Posted 12/10/2017 at 20:03:45
However, if we don't get rid of Kenwright and the other dross behind the scenes, I fear it won't matter who gets the job.
73 Posted 12/10/2017 at 20:04:47
You said "One thing for sure is that, the better we do the better they do financially, and that is an absolute fact."
Well, the absolute fact is that, for 20 odd years, we have done nothing and the directors have scored big time. Unless you have proof otherwise?
74 Posted 12/10/2017 at 20:12:44
If you can show that the directors scored big time, then I'll accept it; if not, then I'll add it to the myth file.
75 Posted 12/10/2017 at 20:17:15
76 Posted 12/10/2017 at 22:42:16
I would have thought the worlds greatest Evertonian would have used his windfall on say, buying back Finch Farm and gifting it to the Club. Of course he would still have lots of change.
But if you can prove the directors made nothing out of putting nothing into the Club then fair enough. I ask again that you read what you wrote.
77 Posted 12/10/2017 at 22:43:17
I kid you not but those plates were JM 1, CATTERICK and my own EVERTON 2. It was enough to make a grown man cry in frustration.
78 Posted 13/10/2017 at 08:26:33
Having had a couple of days of considering Darren Hind's post I think Unsworth would be a success. Scott Hall has posted about this on the "why youth could be the answer" thread.
Here is my reasoning:-
Unsworth would have the backing of every living bluenose and the support of Royle and Ferguson.
He would pick the form players in their right positions young or old.
He would coach them to play the Everton way.
As a result, Goodison would have its twelfth man back.
I believe that Moshiri does want success for the club on the pitch and will make sure we get a new stadium... if he can see progress.
I have no doubt that on the commercial side he has made the right decisions (Ryantszev, USM Finch Farm, Debt Reduction) but on the playing side (Koeman & Walsh) isn't working. Perhaps Walsh needs cutting some slack because we have signed some very good young talent.
He will be chewing all this over at the moment. We have Some very good players and I include the new signings in that (they were good before they came here).
Unless there is a dramatic turn around in the next 2 or 3 weeks, I expect him to do something about it. There is too much at stake for him not to.
79 Posted 13/10/2017 at 08:32:16
80 Posted 13/10/2017 at 08:55:14
81 Posted 13/10/2017 at 08:55:43
D-I-V-O-R-C-E. Asap please.
82 Posted 13/10/2017 at 12:56:53
Can you please advise which directors made what out of Moshiri and how this was done? I can think of perfectly legitimate sale of shares but you hint of something illegal or immoral; what would that be exactly? Do you feel that making money is somehow wrong?
The directors put in nothing? Well, nothing except their own efforts mainly for no direct compensation. All risks taken were by them and nobody else. It's easy to sit in an armchair, criticise and gossip when you take no risk and take no part in the running of a club that has to maintain status to survive.
Buying and successfully running what is now a high risk, high turnover, very competitive business employing many staff is not easy. Remember that it isn't a computer game and unlike us they can't just photoshop Koeman out of the picture, they have to terminate his contract and compensate him then take the massive risk of taking on a new Head Coach.
We as fans do nothing but irrationally demand success and complain when we don't get it with no understanding of why other than "It was the board what done it."
83 Posted 13/10/2017 at 13:20:57
Bill Kenwright does not present himself as your typical owner/chairman/ director. He presents himself as a lifelong Blue, devoted to the club. No-one is expecting him to give all his share sale money to the club.
However, it seem to me that he is in a position to make himself a healthy amount of money and still make a difference with a gesture. I actually thought he liked grand gestures.
84 Posted 13/10/2017 at 13:36:57
Bill Kenwright is not only an Evertonian but a very successful businessman and that is a very unusual but surely very good combination to have as a club director?
Two points, none of us know what he made from his share sale and he is perfectly entitled to take the returns on his investment and retire which he will do. We should always start at that point.
85 Posted 13/10/2017 at 13:44:34
Of course, the club was already going down hill before even Peter Johnson arrived. Despite being at the forefront of the Premier League, we forgot to jump on board.
86 Posted 13/10/2017 at 13:59:18
My own position is that Kenwright is not a criminally-minded, financial-duping-mastermind. He has made a successful business out of something he loves (plays etc), but has not reached the same success with EFC. In fact, it can and is argued that he has been quite incompetent in his long-term planning for EFC. I think the results since the inception of the Premier League, when compared with our peers, is evidence enough.
Kenwright has not taken money out of the club, wage-wise, and has made a very tidy return on his initial investment. As Martin says, this is not illegal or immoral.
What it leaves is a nasty taste in the mouth with fans due to a lack of transparency, the persona he has created of himself in relation to the club, and incompetence (and statements which have not materialised, whether intentional lies or bad judgement) regarding a new stadium. Couple that with a tidy return on his investment, it does leave a bad taste (although not an illegal taste).
I do believe Moshiri has the best intentions long-term. I also think he is cleverer and more connected than Kenwright. However, he is still learning about running a club. If he is successful, no-one wins more than himself.
On to Unsworth does anyone else have a feeling (a football-gut feeling) that he is exactly what we need right now? We have a group of young players who need to be shown the passion required to play for EFC. As a winner, he understands the feeling of lifting a trophy. He understands how to get the crowd behind players. He could provide a lift to everyone. It just feels right to me.
87 Posted 13/10/2017 at 14:12:16
We should start with the fact that Kenwright has overseen decades of winning absolutely nothing, not a single thing. He was part of the previous ownership setup, maneuvered his way into being the owner, and during all that time, Everton as a club has been left behind.
He tried to move the club to Kirkby and that failed. He had Everton leveraged with all kinds of loans, some of which were quite shady and documented very well in an article in The Guardian, I believe.
And now he sold some of his shares to Moshiri who has overseen the sale of Stones, Lukaku and had agreed to sell Barkley. He has been an absolute failure as an owner, which is proven by the empty trophy cabinet and current state of the team.
88 Posted 13/10/2017 at 14:18:44
Did Bill Kenwright take over a well financed high performing club?
Given Everton's income and general financial situation relative to the top clubs since the Premier Leaguestarted, would a reasonable man have expected success from Everton during the Kenwright stewardship?
Given the above, does lack of trophies necessarily mean that the club was run incompetently?
Does the owner of a Company have to be transparent with its customers.
Is it not just possible that Everton did well at times just to survive as a club and that everything they did was aimed at trying to improve the situation at the club?
Are modern football fans not usually totally irrational in their expectations compared to what can realistically be delivered?
These are the type of questions I ask myself before I offer opinion or criticism especially as, like all fans, I don't have a clue what has actually happened at the club apart from what appears in publically available documents.
89 Posted 13/10/2017 at 14:33:39
Whether he took over a well financed club would be relevant if we were looking at a short period of time. He's had decades. If he wasn't able to do the job, he shouldn't have fought for the power.
He put people in power that continued to sign horrible merchandising contracts, with Kitbag being the latest. The marketing arm of Everton has been a joke during his tenure.
90 Posted 13/10/2017 at 15:03:30
No, however if you look at assets held by the club when Kenwright bought EFC against assets held by the club when he sold shares to Moshiri, there is a clear downward trend. I'd submit that when Kenwright obtained control he had a strong basis to begin certainly stronger than Moshiri bought.
Martin:Given Everton's income and general financial situation relative to the top clubs since the Premier League started, would a reasonable man have expected success from Everton during the Kenwright stewardship?
I'd submit that we had an equal footing to most of the 'top' clubs in English football at the inception of the Premier League. Can you provide further explanation of this point? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just trying to establish clarity.
Martin: Given the above, does lack of trophies necessarily mean that the club was run incompetently?
Football is a unique business where success can ultimately only be measured by the size of your trophy cabinet. I take your point, though â€“ Spurs for example have not won much, if anything, but are classed as a 'big' and 'successful' club. The difference being they have progressed significantly, where we have stood still.
Martin: Does the owner of a Company have to be transparent with its customers.
Again, football is a unique business. Supporters could be classed as customers; however, I'd suggest we are more stakeholders than customers. To be successful, an element of transparency is an important element. Would success not be more easily achieved with transparency and the full support of your 'customers' than creating an "us v them" culture which is what has occurred under Kenwright.
Martin: Is it not just possible that Everton did well at times just to survive as a club and that everything they did was aimed at trying to improve the situation at the club?
Not really. Can I ask what the point is in sport if you are aiming or only achieving survival? Usually successful athletes or sports professionals aspire to greatness. I appreciate everyone cannot win all the time, but it has been decades without as much as a serious sniff of success.
Martin: Are modern football fans not usually totally irrational in their expectations compared to what can realistically be delivered?
Yes â€“ but most EFC fans I speak to are not that irrational. Progress is expected as a minimum. Stagnation and purely surviving is always going to be frowned upon, in all walks of life.
Martin:These are the type of questions I ask myself before I offer opinion or criticism especially as, like all fans, I don't have a clue what has actually happened at the club apart from what appears in publically available documents.
My type of question is "Why have we not won at Anfield for years, let alone come close to winning a trophy?" â€“ I start from there... on that basis every member of EFC's board and management team is culpable to the failures of our club â€“ there is no shirking away from it, I'm afraid.
91 Posted 13/10/2017 at 15:06:48
Simply put. Bill show urs yerz medals?
You have the answer. Don't excuse the mediocrity we've been served for under his tenure.
92 Posted 13/10/2017 at 15:19:01
Surely you aren't trying to claim that the assets were sold and the money syphoned off. I believe that you are but it is more myth. Surely professional Premier League football isn't a sport but a business?
David @89, Only 2 or 3 clubs have won the Premier League and just a few more the FA Cup. Have the other 89 clubs in the 4 leagues failed by not winning these trophies. A far more logical reason for us not winning trophies is that we have never had the revenue and resources to do so. If you feel we should have got the revenues to be successful how would you have done this given that as well as being paupers we were not a brand and didn't have a sugar daddy.
We pushed for the Premier League because we thought that it would lift us to the level of the big boys but, without the resources, we were never ready.
93 Posted 13/10/2017 at 16:30:16
Whether or not one accepts that additional funds have been spent on transfers, what is unarguable is that we have not retained Stones or Lukaku and the likelihood is that Barkley will soon be gone.
Time for Moshiri to send another message to the fans to explain exactly who he considered our "key players" to be when he made that statement?
94 Posted 13/10/2017 at 17:04:21
Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Leicester City, and Arsenal have won the Premier League.
Liverpool, Portsmouth, Wigan, Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea have won the FA Cup.
I don't get your point.
95 Posted 13/10/2017 at 17:22:00
A few more for the FA Cup? Okay. Over the last 20 years, we have Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Wigan, Portsmouth, Man City.
League Cup last 20 years? Leicester, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Blackburn, Boro, Man Utd, Birmingham City, Man City, Swansea City.
96 Posted 13/10/2017 at 17:30:08
True, the exact amount has not been published (to my knowledge); neither has the number of shares he sold. However, by my estimate, he sold 4,788 shares at ٣,000 each, netting him a cool 㿃.94M â€“ not a bad return on around ٢.5M of his money (or Green's... or the remortgage) over 17 years.
So... best interests of the Club? Or best interests of Bill Kenwright?
ps: The individual shareholdings of the Everton Directors have been listed in every Annual Report... except the last. I did find them listed for Kenwright and Woods on the Everton website, but not for the other newer directors.
97 Posted 13/10/2017 at 17:50:45
98 Posted 13/10/2017 at 18:18:28
99 Posted 13/10/2017 at 18:25:15
My original disagreement with your post has gone a bit off track and, as usual, your smoke and mirrors did not answer my post.
You said that it was an absolute fact that the better the team performed, the better the directors did. I disagreed with that.
If we look at the period from when Kenwright took over to the Moshiri takeover, our Club has NOT done better; in my opinion, both on and off the pitch at best we have stagnated. There is an argument we've actually got further adrift of our competitors.
However, if we look at when Kenwright and his cronies took over and the money they invested and the money they have now, there's no comparison.
So, as I said, I disagree with your statement that the directors only do better if the team do.
100 Posted 13/10/2017 at 18:49:38
101 Posted 13/10/2017 at 19:03:01
Assets such as Finch Farm, a mortgaged Goodison...financial incompetence and mismanagement, failure to capitalise on the growth of the premier (like our peers) is not dodgy, it's just foolishness and incompetence.
Additionally, you mention debt (I did not). Debt at EFC corresponds suggestively from the moment Kenwright took charge to Moshiri buying in. Kenwright mortgaged the club (essentially) to buy it and we've been repaying it during his tenure until Moshiri paid it off.
Moshiri, a financially astute businessman, almost immediately repaid the debt, presumably, as he saw it as an unnecessary millstone choking us.
Maybe our barren patch and subsequent decline is just a result of a 'fan' running a football club??
I'd also suggest that football ie, What is going on on the pitch, is a sport...t he foundation for creating a successful sport (be that a club or league) is business. The two can co-exist.
102 Posted 13/10/2017 at 19:05:56
Honestly I despair sometimes. Winning the U23 league and living the club are nowhere near the criteria for managing this great club with aspirations of getting into the Champions League. Your post Darren is contradictory. Citing a lack of ambition by successive boards and then wanting the U23 manager to lead the club. If they appointed Unsy there would be a million posts on here saying they had taken the cheap option.
List the trophies won by Guadiola, Mourinho, Klopp, Wenger etc and we'd have Unsy in the dugout.
Koeman is a dud but there is some serious shite being spouted here.
103 Posted 13/10/2017 at 19:16:15
I could not agree more with all of your post.
104 Posted 13/10/2017 at 19:36:35
I'm not sure what "getting Everton" means so I don't know that Unsy would have a head start there.
And I wouldn't want Unsy just because he'd be cheap. He'd need to be effective.
105 Posted 13/10/2017 at 19:48:06
Fans would love him but it is how we react when there is the inevitable dip or wobble. I just hope nobody here decides they hate him from day one or we will be in Groundhog Day.
106 Posted 13/10/2017 at 20:04:25
I sense an emotional basis for wanting Unsy more than anything else. We might see before long.
107 Posted 13/10/2017 at 20:34:31
You are right there is a lot of shite being spouted on here... and you are the one spouting it .
What are you talking about saying I used something Catterick achieved as a reason for Unsy getting the managers job? . . That sort of flimsy strawman argument will go down well with the hard of thinking, but anyone with a brain will tell you I don't even mention Catterick.
Yes I said the board have been amateurish and lacked ambition since John Moores stepped down are you going to contest that?
Now take this in so you can avoid embarrassing yourself again. I don't want Unsworth made manager because he won the Under-23 league. I even say so in those words... read it again slowly.
I said I didn't know if Unsworth could emulate the only two successful managers we have had since Moores left. but I then said I would really like to see him given his chance. Last Paragraph... read it again - slowly
You think appointing Rhino lacks ambition, fine , but why attack a post you clearly don't understand ?
I think his appointment would be a bold one, a brave one, an imaginative one. The only reason the game has ever produced great managers is because somebody gave them a chance in the first place.
Go do a bit of research... Go and find out how successful Klopp. Mourinho and Wenger were as managers before they were given their chance.
We're going to hell in a handcart and all you can do is spout about the achievements of managers who definitely won't be coming here.
Many will have witnessed the disasters that were/are Koeman and Martinez. They would be up for a change of tack. You're not? fine, let's hear your solution?
But don't try to attribute made nonsense to other posters in order to support your argument especially when the thread is still live. People only have to scroll back up and they can see what was really said.
108 Posted 13/10/2017 at 20:52:28
Fuckin' fed up with that one.
Can't you think of anything more imaginative?
109 Posted 13/10/2017 at 20:57:21
The main issues are with the players we brought in and more importantly those we didn't bring in.
However, transfer policy aside, as long as Kenwright has anything to do with the club, the best we can hope for is mid table with the odd Europa League appearance, if we're lucky.
The guy simply will not let go of his train set and too many Evertonians are happy to lead the life of mediocrity because the club has expertly managed down expectations ever since the Walker and early Moyes days. Some call it loyalty turning up week-in & week-out but we've regularly been one of the worst teams to watch in the league for the best part of 20 years.
True, Koeman needs to be replaced because with him there isn't even hope now but tbh that's like taking painkillers when you've got appendicitis. The problems go much deeper than the manager.
110 Posted 13/10/2017 at 21:58:54
Denis, we've haven't exactly pulled up trees, but regularly one of the worst? That's exaggeration. Those teams tend to get relegated, or be Stoke and the earlier West Brom, and we never have.
I'll agree with you for this season though.
111 Posted 13/10/2017 at 22:15:17
What do you do to improve things that is different to those fans who you claim accept mediocrity?
112 Posted 13/10/2017 at 22:31:10
The growth of the Premier League benefited all teams so can't be used as a reason for us not improving relative to other Premier League teams. Also Everton did nothing in terms of selling and leasing of assets that aren't considered good business practices. There isn't a shred of evidence of incompetence, foolishness or anything being done that wasn't completely in the interest of the club.
Debt at EFC doesn't correspond to the time that BK took over and it is incorrect that he mortgaged the club to buy it and that Moshiri has paid the debt off, he hasn't. What Moshiri did was replaced a lot of individual high interest loans with one interest free loan from him. We still have the debt.
Kenwright isn't just a fan, he is also a very astute and successful businessman who unlike other businessmen understands the game. Premier League football clubs are businesses not sports clubs, the sport aspect is a part of this for sure but only the means to the end.
Winston, I understand your genuine concerns and I don't want there to be any bad blood between us but please look further than some of the bullshit that is spouted on here. We have done badly in the Premier League because we were a busted flush when we went in.
Sorry but the concept of Unsy being made Head Coach at Everton is not a solution, he is a reserve team coach with no experience of running an Premier League club. He is 5 years of successful first team coaching away from being suitable for Everton.
113 Posted 13/10/2017 at 22:45:49
The facts of the matter re Klopp and Wenger in their first clubs as manager are these;
Klopp having admittedly got Mainz 05 to the Bundesliga in the first place then got them relegated in his third season there. Wenger did same in his three seasons at Nancy. Hmmm!
They both achieved success elsewhere after being relegated though, so well done to them I suppose and, in fairness, Darren for apparently being so keen on Unsy that he'd even accommodate the risk of relegation to devolve the manager's job to a top reserves coach completely untested at any first-team level anywhere, never mind the Premier League level.
114 Posted 13/10/2017 at 22:54:13
As I say, nobody knows and your figures are as you say estimates but probably realistic.
I'd say that making 㿄M on what we now turn over for the time he has been running the club is small change. Do you feel that 10% interest is unfair considering what he puts up with, the risks he has taken and what he does for nothing?
If you subtract what he could have made with his investment from what he actually made, the only conclusion that can be reached is that he did what he did for his love of the club â€“ not only for his own interests.
115 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:05:38
By saying Unsworth doesn't or wouldn't yet have what it takes would necessarily imply that Koeman is currently utilizing skill and experience that Unsworth doesn't yet possess.
If he is, it's damned hard to see it.
116 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:32:11
Will, I don't think it would necessarily imply that. Koeman clearly isn't utilising skills etc that we want. Unsworth might not yet have the skills etc that we want. Who knows?
117 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:32:26
I respect your intelligence and classy contributions but to say Kenwright inherited debt is absolute bollocks. When Kenwright took over the club had a net asset position and had just made a profit.
Following his first year, when the accounts were filed much later than usual we had miraculously made a loss and turned a net asset position into a net liability position despite a profit on player sales/acquisitions.
In fact, if memory serves me correctly, the turnaround was something like £30m which was conveniently close to what Johnson took for his shares.
118 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:39:17
I honestly haven't got a clue. Watching Everton in recent years has become a form of self-flagellation. After the Burnley game my first thought was that was 2 hours of my life I'll never get back again. It wasn't even the fact we lost that annoyed me (result didn't overly surprise in the end) it was the fact I'd spent 2 hours voluntarily watching such boring shite, and not for the first time.
The club is really lucky to have such sticky fans turning up every week. There's only so much crap you can watch and I wonder if we'll ever see the team take the pitch expecting (rather than hoping) to see some decent football played. At pace, with accurate passing and decent movement off the ball. Is that really too much to ask? I'm almost not even bothered about winning a trophy anymore its 22 years now as it is! 22 years!!! Is it just a coincidence that since Bill Kenwright took over, we've achieved bugger all?
The whole club, from stadium to board to manager... there's just nothing at the moment.
119 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:46:40
I disagree. We have been one of the most boring teams to watch over the last 20 odd years.
Most of the Moyes years were god awful, Walter? Kendall Mk III? Martinez 2nd and 3rd? (Even his first wasn't fantastic.)
There has been the odd bright ray every now and again but overall we have been shite. When I watch other teams I often think to myself why can't we pass like, move off the ball like that etc. Yes, we've generally been mid table and avoided the drop. But 'entertaining' is not a word that's been associated with us for a long long time.
120 Posted 13/10/2017 at 23:57:55
As to Unsworth, it may be a shot in the dark. As experience doesn't guarantee results, inexperience doesn't guarantee failure. As you say, who knows.
121 Posted 13/10/2017 at 00:09:42
Some of Moyes's stuff threatened promise now and then, and I can't agree re Martinez. I thought some of the football played in the first two thirds of that first season was pretty good to watch. Plenty of commentators thought so, too.
Walter's time, I don't really want to dwell on...
122 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:12:17
Some people lay out big coin for that sort of stuff.
123 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:13:56
Catchy. I like it.
124 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:15:59
Will, I spread the cost through a whip-round.
125 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:16:40
126 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:18:41
Do you know Max Moseley?
127 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:25:57
128 Posted 14/10/2017 at 00:37:13
129 Posted 14/10/2017 at 01:06:09
The fact that we so much revere, because it's all we have to revere, "Rotterdam" and "the Bayern night" is testament to chronic underachievement in my lifetime for a club of such venerated historic stature playing in a ground mostly bettered only by Wembley until our much "revered" Sir Phil sat there at the inception of the Premier League and oversaw our total failure to match up to the demand and/or opportunity it presented. And Blue Bill names a fucking stand after him!!!
And yet some of us slag off the new guy who's come in stating that we cannot continue as "a museum", removing a grossly expensive debt so diligently and drainingly (except to him of course when he eventually sold some of his shares) arranged by Blue Bill, and setting wheels in motion for a new stadium to be built at a landmark site over 20 years since the need for one was first recognised by even our pathetic board at the time!
Results this season have been disappointing and, yes, the mode of play doesn't suggest a 5-0 win will be coming any time in the foreseeable (to say the least) but it's delusional to think we've ever played anything like even one season of vibrant, entertaining football in the past 25 years.
I wish it wasn't so.
130 Posted 14/10/2017 at 07:04:23
131 Posted 14/10/2017 at 07:05:42
Only hope is the seagulls dump on us from a great height and banners and planes are out in force. The Red Shiesters would never put up with even being half good or half a pro club, unlike us. Their fans demand at least they compete and even the Coutinho situation outlines that. Why oh why a supposedly shrewd businessman would promote a continual failure like Elstone to a seat on the board and be succumbed by Bill and his loser little blue mentality... Unbelievable, Jeff.
132 Posted 14/10/2017 at 07:13:22
I know what you mean but my analysis is a little different; I don't view him as generously as you do.
You are very close with his rate of return: I calculate 11%, which is pretty good if you consider 10% to be a solid number for long-term investment in the stock market. Risk possibly higher (Leeds, Portsmouth) but far less of a roller-coaster in terms of temporal mood swings. I think, on this basis, he's made a little more than he could have, but it all depends what that alternate investment would have been. Not much out there that would have yielded more than 11%.
But this investment is special. It buys Bill his trainset. It gets him a very high profile position where he calls the shots for a Top 20 business operation in terms of World football at the club that he loves. Hard to put a price on that in terms of personal satisfaction for his massive ego (Blue Union notwithstanding). No salary or stipend... but I suspect it's all expenses paid.
But the real comparison should be to other clubs like Arsenal or Man Utd, who were our equals when this malarkey kicked off but are now worth far, far more. Why? Because they were managed far, far better. All your excuses absolving Bill for lack of resources really don't stand up if you consider what some comparable clubs have been able to achieve from a similar position over the same time period.
134 Posted 14/10/2017 at 08:09:14
You do amuse me, Don Alexander. Go and take another look at our performances â€“ take a look at the league table â€“ ask yourself which direction we are headed?
After so persistently and vociferously pleading for more time for the guy to get us into this situation, I don't think you are in a position to tell others what constitutes the threat of relegation.
135 Posted 14/10/2017 at 08:20:39
Koeman wants the Barcelona job does he? Well France on Thursday will Introduce him to a regular Champions League outfit in Lyon. Let's see how he copes.
136 Posted 14/10/2017 at 08:56:39
Lyon will tear us to shreds on that showing.
137 Posted 14/10/2017 at 09:25:28
We have been left behind in the era of the Premier League, and I have certainly never seen a more hapless or demoralized set up than take to the field now in a blue shirt. I say that, and I was stood in the Paddock watching the likes of Eamonn O'Keefe, Bernie Wright and Peter Eastoe plough their dubious trade for this great club. At least there was something akin to enthusiasm and endeavor in those stuttering teams.
Today, we look shot. Get that gate open and let that Rhino in. Now, please? KNVB beckons, Mr Koeman, go on, you know you want it.
138 Posted 14/10/2017 at 09:39:41
Prior to his 4 year stint at Espanyol in La Liga the only experience in management Pochettini had was as assistant coach to the ladies team. His first match was against Pep which he drew.
Interestingly, Pochettino's philosophy is to have all the teams in the club to play his high pressing game, and promoting academy players to the first team when they are ready. That makes sense to me.
Our Under-23s are definitely not playing to the Koeman system.
I think it is a much more complex issue than a proven track record or experience.
139 Posted 14/10/2017 at 10:19:40
I trust the club on this issue rather than my own judgement but I'd hate to see him fail. To get his experience, it would be necessary for him to leave and that wouldn't be good... so the only option is sink or swim.
140 Posted 14/10/2017 at 11:06:11
Yes, mate, t's as if Lyon and Everton are playing a different sport to be honest. The way Lyon play compared to us is unreal. We will get whacked on Thursday no doubt about that. Unless Koeman has gone, that is.
141 Posted 14/10/2017 at 11:29:47
Then we bottled it against Palace at Goodison and Martinez was out-thought by Pulis. It was a killing result and although we then beat Man Utd, the momentum had gone.
I don't think we've ever recovered. That was a very good side with the potential to get better.
142 Posted 14/10/2017 at 11:58:18
It could also fit with the ambitions of Moshiri and the board. Those ambitions don't seem consistent with getting us to the top, but to near the top, broadly on a par with Liverpool and Arsenal.
In average and broad terms over the last decade or so, we've tended to finish around 60 points, with Liverpool finishing around 10 points higher, and the top of the heap around 15 points higher than that. If we get to finishing 10 points higher, fairly consistently, on a par with Liverpool, and win about half the derby games as well, I suspect most supporters would be reasonably happy. That would count as 'success' in the eyes of many, if not all, supporters.
With that level of ambition, Unsworth looks a viable candidate. It's clearly difficult to recruit a manager from outside who would get us to that level of improvement, so why not Unsworth?
Unless we get an owner with big bucks, that looks the level of ambition that is reasonably achievable, with the involvement in the Champions League that would come with it. It's big money that talks when the ambition is to reach the top consistently, so (like Liverpool) we're not really talking about reaching the top. Or, if we are, it's not realistic talk.
143 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:10:50
Oh, and you may as well cancel your Sky subscription today as we're not on live tv tomorrow anyway! (Which I am actually slightly relieved about!) Here's to an extremely boring nil-nil draw today just to shut Sky and its irritating pundits up!
144 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:28:14
145 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:33:00
146 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:38:06
In contrast to the hype, they're actually fairly mediocre. The hype about Klopp has a reality check when you realise he hasn't really improved them. I can't see Man Utd not beating them, Lukaku getting one or two.
147 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:41:27
We just never seem to get the right players or manager in to do that. You don't need hundreds of millions to bring in players and a manager who want to play quick incisive stuff.
I'm not expecting us to win anything every year but would at least like to think we could get fans' heart rates above coma pace. We are just so fucking boring to watch, playing football at walking pace passing sideways and backwards with little off the ball movement. And yet we've had a squad full of internationals for many years. Explain that.
Cahill, Gravesen, Pienaar and Arteta brought us a bit of sunshine but that's pretty much it for two decades.
148 Posted 14/10/2017 at 12:50:27
What a slow unimaginative team we have this season.
149 Posted 14/10/2017 at 13:07:17
150 Posted 14/10/2017 at 13:55:50
Watching his teams play, there's evidence of pressing, pace and goals, the very things Koeman says he likes, while not delivering them. This season, I've been impressed by the fact that he's arguably lost his best players and his team is still getting results and good to watch. They also look like they know what they're meant to be doing, which suggests to me he's a decent communicator. The attitude of the younger players, which often puts the 'senior' players to shame, is noticeable and impressive.
I think we have a squad able to finish higher than last season and create the momentum we need to keep rising. We won't be buying top players until then, which for me makes the 'lack of reputation' argument redundant.
I'm not interested in the 'gets the club' arguments. I want a manager that gets us trophies. If he genuinely thinks he's ready and able, I'd give him the job.
151 Posted 14/10/2017 at 14:20:46
Further, I remain very supportive of your OPINION at #1. It just happens that there you at last moved from blaming Koeman alone for everything to taking a wider, albeit depressing, view of the club's woes and others who've been and remain culpable. On that, I've said the same as you, for ages, on various threads.
This is not an endorsement of Koeman either. He needs to gel this squad pdq but to be left bereft of the type of players he wanted is a travesty, mainly to us fans. My take on it, though, is that Koeman will be safe for this season at least unless we do drop into the mini-league that always fight out the relegation battle.
I don't think that'll happen but whoever failed us this summer has cost us any chance of bettering last season, in my opinion. Whoever it was deserves the sack.
152 Posted 14/10/2017 at 14:59:18
They should have beaten Liverpool today, because they should have gone out to win rather than contain. Like we should have been doing last season away from home, and should be doing this season.
Mourinho is not good for football, his sides have become tedious to watch. Koeman looks in the same mould, just less successful at getting results.
All we are saying, is give Unsy a chance!
153 Posted 14/10/2017 at 15:07:15
Lukaku is a good striker who always get you 20+ goals a season but the top players do it in the important games against the very top teams and he just doesn't cut it.
We got a good price for him and when you think Chelsea paid £63M for Morata who looks head and shoulders better than Lukaku we can't complain .
Having said all that we definitely miss him and it was poor management not looking for a replacement before buying Sigurdsson .
154 Posted 14/10/2017 at 15:10:06
155 Posted 14/10/2017 at 15:16:39
I just backed a horse. I really, really, really wanted it to win the race. My bias was absolute, but my confirmation deserted me.
Somehow I couldn't see what I wanted to see... the fucking thing ran like a pack mule.
160 Posted 14/10/2017 at 16:25:53
Why oh why do we allow this shit to continue for so many years?
162 Posted 14/10/2017 at 16:51:12
First goal scorer tomorrow?
164 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:00:09
165 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:05:14
I'll be watching for two things tomorrow: pace and pressing. The two things Koeman says he likes, the two things we rarely see. The two reasons why we should be looking elsewhere.
Good news is that I'm taking the train to Edinburgh tomorrow so I'll be 'watching' on the live forum.
Moshiri gives a vote of confidence then 'shows support' at Finch Farm? I'd be a worried man if I was Koeman. Bet his agent's already talking to the KNVB.
166 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:08:38
Lukaku was going to leave for a decent fee or leave for nothing but we lost the opportunity to convince him to stay with Martinez's awful second season when he stayed on at the World Cup too long and our pre-season was a disaster, not to mention the lack of investment. The club should never have let Howard or Martinez commentate at the World Cup or in the US. Everton should have been their full time jobs demanding every second of their attention whilst at work. The second opportunity to re-sign would have been during Koeman's first season but we left the new signings too late.
I agree our mentality hasn't been right especially against the top 6. Watching Palace against Chelsea today, they were outstanding. Haven't seen that desire from our senior players yet this season.
The club seems to be healthy until you get to the first team, a bit like the national squad really.
Perhaps we need an Eileen Drewery... ha. It's hard to get excited about anything Everton at the moment and that pisses me right off.
167 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:11:07
168 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:11:26
169 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:44:22
170 Posted 14/10/2017 at 17:54:19
The players bottled it at the end of that first season and he/we knew we needed to strengthen. He tried to bounce Kenwright into opening the biscuit tin and Bill looked behind the sofa and found the money for Lukaku and a new contract for Roberto.
I suspect Martinez's autobiography will tell us that, had Moshiri invested at the end of his first season, we'd have got better players and would have been happy ever after. You heard it here first.
171 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:08:57
172 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:11:38
So, if the getting it right starts tomorrow I will have a very personal, biased pro Koeman view. If, however, we do not win, I will consider using my double winnings to contribute to the hiring of a plane and banner.
We must win tomorrow or confidence will be shot to the extent of making Koeman's position untenable.
173 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:27:41
Lukaku scores goals, but
They're only against small clubs
We'll replace him easily
He won't score for Man Utd
Well, he does, but only against small clubs
Lukaku scored against big clubs, scored in derbies, scored in quaterfinals & semi-finals. I miss Lukaku. He scored goals and called out our board for not buying better players. We need more people like that.
Always appreciate what you have. You'll miss it when it's gone.
174 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:32:12
175 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:44:34
176 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:45:10
177 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:47:27
178 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:47:46
179 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:51:51
I defended him wholeheartedly and repeatedly against the scuffed shots accuser. He was poor today though. Regardless of the lack of supply. Mourinho went with a game plan to stifle Liverpool and play on the counter.
He needed Rom to battle, compete and hold the ball up. He didn't do that.
180 Posted 14/10/2017 at 18:56:02
One of the ToffeeWeb congregation reckoned scuffed shots were the only type of goal he scored.
182 Posted 14/10/2017 at 19:09:35
184 Posted 14/10/2017 at 19:17:12
Do you accept that under the stewardship of Bill Kenwright the club have lost money and borrowed money?
Would you accept that his reign has seen Premier League survival as his main objective?
Would you consider the possibility that, while the club has racked up debts and borrowed money, he, as the main custodian of the club, has made a handsome profit?
The club have lost money and he has made money. Do you respect him? Do you trust him?
I respect the stand you take on this site, Martin, but what are your answers to those questions.
186 Posted 14/10/2017 at 19:29:03
I feel I have our fate in my hands. If I hang in, it will be loyal and positive. Cash in and it will be a negative vote. I think I will stick. We will win.
187 Posted 14/10/2017 at 19:35:13
Dependant on amount offered, cash out and back the Blues in a single bet?
188 Posted 15/10/2017 at 10:18:37
Yes, but that is normal business activity and, if the money lost or borrowed was spent on players then it would not only be normal but beneficial.
Yes, and that is all Kenwright said he would do until suitable investment could be achieved as it has done now. Expecting Everton to aim to win trophies other than perhaps a lower domestic cup in the period since Kenwright took over is irrational.
Given my answer above on normal debt and borrowing, Kenwright has in the end mad a profit on the sale of his shares after taking nothing out of the club before this. The profit amounts to around 10% per annum over a fairly good term. It is legal, far from immoral and it is far from handsome when you look at the responsibility and risk he's taken on. It shows no greed or a desire to enrich himself at the expense of the club.
I respect BK and trust him based on two reasons. Firstly, he is a successful business man in his own right and virtually every charge that I've ever seen levelled against him was unsubstantiated and easily refuted. Secondly, and most importantly, based on lack of evidence of any wrong doing he is innocent until proven guilty. Remember he is unable to answer any of the charges against him, that doesn't make him guilty and he doesn't need to prove his innocence; critics have to prove his guilt.
I will judge Kenwright only on that which I can be reasonably sure shows him to be guilty of any misdemeanour or of doing anything that wasn't in the best interest of the club. I have seen nothing on here that comes near to doing that. I will accept anything that anybody can show that makes him guilty of anything beyond reasonable doubt if not factual.
My aim is at all times to be fair to the bloke and base my conclusions not on gossip but on reasonable argument. He isn't perfect, no doubt he could have done better, but the opposite is also true. He is guilty of promising far more than he can deliver but he wants to be popular and luvvies are fantasists by nature. Against that, he loves the club and is an eccentric in a world that needs it. Whilst he would be better being more communicative with normal fans I can see that criticism hardens him: he can't understand why.
189 Posted 15/10/2017 at 10:37:49
190 Posted 15/10/2017 at 10:45:02
We really need a win today to give us fans a shot in the arm to say nothing of turning things around.
191 Posted 16/10/2017 at 10:14:32
I watched the Brighton game was horrified. At first Brighton gave us respect and let us boss the game (I use 'boss' in the loosest of ways), then after 35 minutes they realised that we don't play like we deserve respect, so they stopped giving us any and started attacking and holding the ball.
This says so much for a once proud football club. Time to play with heart and arrogance, the other teams need to fear us, not look forward to points against us.
If this doesn't change from top to bottom we won't last long in the Premier League. Stand tall boys.
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