ToffeeWeb should be about opinions and of course those opinions will differ, some of the keyboard warriors even acknowledge that, then go on to contradict that philosophy.
As for criticism, the Players and the Manager and Staff, are extremely well paid, and not doing this as a favour or charity for the good of all things Everton. So if they perform poorly, or the Manager fields weakened teams, and leaves players out when they are match fit, and would suit the opposition better than those selected, then criticism IS justified.
I don't think for one minute, that Marco Silva or anyone else connected with the first-team set-up, checks ToffeeWeb to see what the fans' opinions are, and then takes umbrage by the comments, yet some on here seem take those criticisms as an insult to players and staff.
The one thing I disagree with though is, personal abuse between ToffeeWebers, and I mean the genuine abuse (not the tongue-in-cheek) okay it's back to opinions again, but just because someone disagrees or opposes shouldn't make them the enemy. We are all fighting for the same cause here I hope, so let's keep it civilised and remember that!
Reader Comments (107)
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1 Posted 01/09/2019 at 11:28:21
I don't expect much more than last season because I still think we are a little bit short, but looking at the squad that Silva inherited, and then looking at the squad now, then all's I see is progress, so hopefully, behind the mirrors and the mist, we can now find a bit of stability?
I keep going on about the fans, special fans, but also desperate fans. They need to see a winning team, because their club means everything to them, and so if progress is measured in points, then today's win is fucking massive.
I see the game differently sometimes and measure progress by performance, but the keyboard warrior is so powerful nowadays that every point gained is much more precious, and seems much more important than the bigger picture. I hope Bill Gilenap, really enjoyed his first trip to Goodison, and I can also feel Tommy's excitement because I can't wait to get to my spiritual home, for the first time in over three months, to feel the noise, the passion, the humour, and a very, very important three points by the end of play. COYBB!
2 Posted 01/09/2019 at 12:26:34
I've criticised him and will continue to do so if I feel I can justify the criticism. That doesn't reduce my support for the club and the way it is going, I'll also be absolutely ecstatic for Silva to show me to be wrong.
With the benefit of watching the games again, though, I'd say that we have played quite well so far under difficult circumstances of bedding in new players.
3 Posted 01/09/2019 at 19:09:50
I agree with your assertion that all opinions must be respected, and in my opinion team selection is the responsibility of Marco Silva, the team he fields at any given time is the best [obviously] in his opinion.
4 Posted 01/09/2019 at 19:18:37
Yeah criticise results, style of play, transfers, preseason arrangements but Marco Silva has said enough and done enough for me to trust him to pick the right players for the job and if he doesnt pick someone I presume there is a bloody good reason.
And as for the timing to bring in the new recruits, I think hes played it perfectly.
5 Posted 01/09/2019 at 19:26:17
We are all keyboard warriors as such and are all opinionated.
6 Posted 01/09/2019 at 19:50:10
We all post for different reasons, and it remains to be seen if the present manager is good enough, but he inherited a lot of shite imo, and Brands has done well to shift so much of it out of our club.
I feel Silva is paying the price for Martinez, Koeman and Allardyce at times, and also the absolute desperation of the long-suffering Evertonians who have waited way too long for success?
My post@1, was moved from another thread, and I was disagreeing with Derek T, and Stan, who were saying that todays game wasnt more important than other games, (I think?) and I was saying that it was vital we got the three points, because we need as much positivity as possible, to get the fans right behind the team.
7 Posted 01/09/2019 at 20:08:41
If you wrote this piece again would you consider a phrase better than "keyboard warrior" or is that how you see yourself or others seeing you?
Almost rhetorical that.
8 Posted 01/09/2019 at 20:15:52
Picking, for example, say, Tommy Carter, hope I don't offend you, Tommy, sometimes I utterly disagree, other times I think, spot on. This site is about debate and being prepared to say you have it wrong.
9 Posted 01/09/2019 at 21:49:31
In contrast, the substance of a true debate is always interesting. Such debates have changed my thinking on a range of things, and as such I've learned a thing or two about Everton. If the debates are also funny (and some posters have tremendous wit) then all the better. ToffeeWeb is often a bloody good laugh.
10 Posted 01/09/2019 at 22:03:06
In fact, Derek's original piece was posted as a comment on the Match Preview thread and I thought he expressed some great thoughts about a perennial 'problem' we have (though milk toast compared some other internet gateways) so I made it a Talking Point.
It would be great if we could focus our tremendous correspondents to attack the points they disagree with, and not attack the posters who are making them. Too subtle?
11 Posted 01/09/2019 at 22:11:15
Two great examples in successive Premier League games:
Aston Villa, and I felt strongly that Silva missed a massive chance to be more adventurous with his selection by trusting his new signings in place of his non-performing regulars. He obviously didn't pick the right players for the job... and we lost a very winnable game with subs on far too late to change anything.
Fast forward to today and a much more inspiring line-up, one that could have easily been chosen at Villa Park. Yeah, coulda, woulda... but the proof is there (for me at least) in the contrasting results.
12 Posted 01/09/2019 at 22:17:40
13 Posted 01/09/2019 at 22:23:54
14 Posted 02/09/2019 at 05:03:08
I do find the criticism of Brands, albeit by a small minority, quite unbelievable. In a little over 12 months he's transformed the squad and brought in some real quality, some at really low fees relative to what other clubs are paying.
Just glancing through the club's list of ins and outs during the current window, we've off-loaded 33 players ( including some expired contracts and one loan return). 13 of these are out on loan so that gives a net of 19 permanently gone.
Hopefully, a couple of others will be out of the door, today.
15 Posted 02/09/2019 at 05:21:33
ToffeeWeb isn't a bar in your local – you don't always know how "personal insults" will be taken on TW (as just craic or genuine personal abuse; though some of it is clearly craic, and some is clearly meant to be personally abusive and rightly gets the poster a yellow or red card).
16 Posted 02/09/2019 at 06:19:51
A person who uses social media to express outrage or criticism
(Collins English Dictionary)
A person who behaves aggressively and/or in an inflammatory manner in online text-based discussion media, but at the same time does not behave similarly in real life, potentially due to cowardice, introversion or shyness. (Wiktionary.org)
There are some uglier definitions out there, but I would think that a combination of the two above is what most of us think of when we see or use the expression. So I wouldn't take the expression as negatively as some seem to do.
17 Posted 02/09/2019 at 07:03:50
With regards to the original thread, "keyboard warriors" is all we can be about sport these days as, aside from a select few, none of us have access to the inner workings of the club. I've no problem with fans on here losing the plot about certain things. The main thing I do have a problem with is seeing certain posters automatically disagreeing with someone because they always have. I've had some mighty back-and-forwards with people on here on some subjects, only to switch to another thread and be in their corner.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of posters qualifying their opinion/post with "I've been supporting this club since 1756" because a) that doesn't automatically make you an expert, and; b) I just don't give a shit and it won't make me change my mind on my own opinions. However, I'd never tell someone else how they should post.
18 Posted 02/09/2019 at 07:31:40
As an example, my mother, 86, is still as fanatic as ever but doesn't see the game, she takes all her information from the post-match phone-in on the radio. So, when I phone for a chat on the blues, I'm often shocked by her diverse opinions (change that to 'angered'!!)
Diverse and polarised opinions are always extreme and emotive by nature but that's what makes the world go around and makes this website the biggest and best medium for opinions — Power to the People!!
19 Posted 02/09/2019 at 15:22:01
By calling other posters 'keyboard warriors' for having an alternative opinion, you demonstrate that this is what you are. You support having differences of opinion without conflict yet you create conflict by implying some kind of cowardice in some posters.
You have an opinion but that is all it is and it's no better than anybody else. You for sure show yourself to be a keyboard warrior.
20 Posted 02/09/2019 at 15:41:14
As you have repeated your point, I'll repeat mine in defence of Derek. You say "By calling other posters 'keyboard warriors' for having an alternative opinion you demonstrate that this is what you are". That's not how I read the thrust of Derek's piece – his piece was, in fact, a defence of people holding alternative opinions - he's not calling that keyboard war. Instead, his main point was about unnecessary personal abuse that sometimes accompanies an opinion.
"You create conflict by implying some kind of cowardice in some posters". I don't think he implies anything about cowardice, but you infer it. He's just asking for civilised posts – as yours is.
21 Posted 02/09/2019 at 16:04:37
And let's leave any calls for civility to Lyndon and Michael.
22 Posted 02/09/2019 at 16:21:19
There ARE a few keyboard warriors on TW. There are a few posters, and have been in the past, that go too far on personal insults or try to ridicule other posters by being overly aggressive in their posts, and their name-calling, towards them.
I'm not going to reel off examples because I can't really be arsed but what I can be arsed about is someone himself being accused of being a Keyboard Warrior when that IS 100% not the case.
Having read a lot of his posts and met him on several occasions I can honestly say that Derek is a gentleman, and there's not many of those around.
He MAY not have outlined what constitutes a Keyboard Warrior as well as he could have (he's a Jock after all) but I know exactly what he meant and I'm sure others did too.
He certainly didn't mean those who simply oppose the opinion of others are Keyboard Warrior's but we all know there are ways of posting things which are nasty and belittling towards others and to say that hasn't happened on here is denying the obvious.
This is my opinion and I respect that others will totally disagree with it and I fully respect their democratic right to be wrong.
What I don't respect though is "idiot" "full of shit" "moron" and other ones I've seen on here that are perfect examples of Keyboard Warrior's.
May I please draw to the reader's attention that the highlighted parts of this post are meant in jest, as Derek will know only too well but others may not and may be offended. :-)
23 Posted 02/09/2019 at 16:30:46
But I have to say, that in these dark days of bad news and all that is going on around us, few things make me laugh out loud, like some of you ToffeeWebber's with your wit & funny remarks. They are often short, but so very succinct.
I know that you may not all be Scousers, but the Scouse wit is alive & well on ToffeeWeb. Long may it continue and thank you for exercising my chuckle muscles.
Personal abuse to oppose a view is just identifying a shortfall in the ability to conduct a well-based, intelligent debate.
24 Posted 02/09/2019 at 16:35:16
Respectfully, you can't compare two games to prove that different personnel would have made a difference.
My very point is that you and I don't know the extent of fitness or availability for each game.
I'm sure he'd like to pick his best team every game and that probably wouldn't differ much, if at all, from yours or my best team but we assume the player's we'd pick are 100% when plainly we aren't informed of what's happened at Finch Farm that week or where players are against their individual fitness plans.
If it was as simple as picking the best players every week then you wouldn't need a squad and we'd all be Premier League managers.
Apologies if I failed to make my point succinctly first time round.
25 Posted 02/09/2019 at 16:44:46
We used to get our frustrations and opinions out with mates in the pub but the arrival of the internet has introduced a new medium for us to vent and opine.
The problem is because we don't know the person making the comment we are far more impersonal and sometimes hateful in our response.
That point is illustrated by the difference some of the TW get togethers advocated by Sir John McFarlane (ToffeeWeb royalty) have made to the interaction between those posters which is now on a more jovial and family like basis.
So please bear in mind when you see a post that you vehemently oppose you are responding to a fellow Blue who loves the club every bit as much as you do.
26 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:01:29
Were all different and have differing opinions and items that interest and annoy us. From what I see the editors seem to do a good job and I enjoy both Lyndons opinion, which I find balanced but equally enjoy the fact that Michael has strong opinions which create debate.
27 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:05:37
Unfortunately, I don't share your belief at all times with Marco Silva... at least not yet. His reluctance to start key new players at Aston Villa in favour of a very conservative line-up, followed by this maddening rule many managers have — that the first tactical subs must be made on or after the hour-mark, and not a minute before, no matter what is happening in the game — is (I am convinced in my own mind at least) what lost us the game.
He could have started Iwobi and Kean in the first half and taken them off at half-time if they really weren't ready. No different really from what actually happened yesterday (although arguably he left them on too long).
The manager is always going to be second-guessed by the fans. That's part and parcel of being a supporter... at least in my book. As is giving opinions on the way players perform in a given match.
What is unfortunate is the propensity to make career-ending projections based on a poor showing. There's always the next match... but then there's that thing that Einstein bloke said too. So, for example, if your centre-forward fails to score in 14 starts, you really do have to do something different... et voila!!!
28 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:10:55
I also dislike calling players and managers shite etc, but that's just me it does no harm I suppose, although I bet the odd player has a peek at what is being said they wouldn't be human if they weren't curious.
Lets face it we all think our opinions are correct, we wouldn't post if we didn't.
29 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:36:51
Incidentally, I think that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is more the definition of stubbornness or narrow-mindedness than insanity; insanity is far too difficult to classify with a pithy aphorism.
30 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:43:00
31 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:51:25
Being something of a social media clod, I'm seeing the expression "keyboard warrior" for the first time right here. My immediate reaction would be that it doesn't necessarily mean merely expressing a contrasting opinion, no matter how strongly. Instead I feel the correct definition is what Lev posted from Wiktionary -- the term would apply to someone who (to use the metaphor of TW as a virtual pub) posts personal insults that would get him knocked off a barstool if he said them to someone's face. And I do believe that hiding behind an Internet connection to say something that would get one's nose broken in person is definitely a form of cowardice.
That said, I think we're all called upon sometimes to just let things pass, whether it's because we "know" a particular poster and can forgive some over-the-top tendencies (you know I love ya, Andy!), or because the poster is clearly trying to pick a fight and just isn't worthy of notice (like one particularly belligerent fella we've seen here recently). The moderators do a fine job of keeping things civilized here, but our membership often does the same by simply dismissing offensive posters and continuing the conversation.
Of course, some things are unforgivable, like overuse of the Bold key. (Love you too, Brian!)
And as to the topic of debating the starting lineup, as someone mentioned above it's an absorbing but ultimately pointless exercise, as we are not privy to the injury/fitness/strategy factors that go into Silva's selections. For example, Sunday's lineup might have beaten Villa if Delph had been fit enough for Villa, but we have no way of knowing that. Lineup debates, like transfer window debates, are largely guesswork.
Karen #23, great term -- "chuckle muscles". Can I borrow that one, or do I have to pay a copyright fee?
Stan #9, heartily agree. I've gotten more big laughs from TW than any other single source in my life, and some of them couldn't have been more perfectly timed.
32 Posted 02/09/2019 at 17:57:19
I believe a warrior is someone who fights, and a keyboard warrior is someone who seems to look for a verbal fight on social media, ToffeeWeb being an example of social media. In this respect, some people on ToffeeWeb come across as keyboard warriors by virtue of the style of their comments including personal remarks about other people with whom they disagree.
Not all people who use social media are keyboard warriors. Some are keyboard peacemakers, some keyboard diplomats, some keyboard comedians, etc. It's the keyboard warriors that Derek is talking about, and there's no evidence of that characteristic in his post.
33 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:00:01
However, not all posts are like that and ,to be frank, I am one of the most optimistic fans you can find.
"Keyboard pisstaker" and for that, I just about apologise!
34 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:04:26
35 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:05:06
I feel that the ToffeeWeb gatherings have been a huge success, and putting faces to names and talking football as we do, makes it less likely to adopt an aggressive attitude.If I'm allowed a moment of vanity, I feel proud that my involvement in ToffeeWeb has brought fellow Evertonians together to discuss all things Everton, and many other subjects.
36 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:08:08
37 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:23:13
38 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:29:25
There is one Poster in particular on ToffeeWeb who cant argue his very own salient point without trying to belittle posters by labelling them a "Moron", "Idiot", "Fantasist", "Unevertonian" etc in his responses.
I have often thought about contacting Michael Kenrick to call this individual out on it.
The love of this club is what bring us together and its the difference in opinion which makes this site interesting reading.
39 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:29:38
40 Posted 02/09/2019 at 18:39:50
41 Posted 02/09/2019 at 19:32:45
42 Posted 02/09/2019 at 19:42:57
The man was an amazing phenomenon when you consider how incredibly brilliant he was, and how his General and Special Theories of Relativity continue to be proven correct, from light bending during the total eclipse of 1919 to the detection of gravitational waves in 2016. (Although, to be fair, he thought they would be far too weak to ever be detected...)
But he never accepted Quantum Theory and the nonsense of Schrodinger's poor cat (or is that another internet meme?). As an avowed cat-lover, I think I agree with him on that one.
Anyway, for the internet hoi-poli to usurp his incredible reputation falsely in this way is something you are 100% right to call out. Thank you.
43 Posted 02/09/2019 at 19:44:33
I'm sure everyone has seen the HYS on the BBC sport page, where Neanderthal Liverpool and Man Utd fans just abuse constantly, many I'm sure have never even seen their team (apart from Sky/BT)
44 Posted 02/09/2019 at 19:47:43
45 Posted 02/09/2019 at 19:53:27
However, I might have got a hit with 'moron/moronic' – Darren Hind is way out in front there. I know he's not a great respecter of the opinions of others, but please tell me it's not him you mean???
46 Posted 02/09/2019 at 20:37:41
I have the utmost respect for the thoughts of people like Paul T, Tony and Dave A. Andy Crooks, Mike Gaynes, Jamie C. Rob Hal... too many to list in fact. I apologise to those I didn't mention. I very rarely respond to older guys like Rich Tarleton or Johnny Mac. I tend to just listen and learn. That too is out of respect.
I tend to call claims, ideas and arguments moronic or half witted. I don't ever recall calling an individual a moron or an idiot... not my style and I'm sure you would have noticed if I did. I very rarely go for an individual. Although I admit, I have often come back aggressively if somebody goes for me. Guilty your honour.
But I refute your claim, I am most definitely not guilty of not respecting other people's opinion.
What I don't respect is blatant hypocrisy and I see a fair bit of it on display on this thread. This thread should be entitled "Who me?" The most cowardly abuse is when I see people call others "prick, gobshite, cunt". I would never tell another poster to "shut the fuck up". That is a level of cowardice I would never sink to, but I see at least three people on this thread who have sunk that low and are now acting all sanctimonious.
If people stick to the notion Paul T puts forward about never saying anything you would not say to the persons face... this site will never go far wrong.
47 Posted 02/09/2019 at 20:43:35
48 Posted 02/09/2019 at 20:43:43
49 Posted 02/09/2019 at 20:49:16
50 Posted 02/09/2019 at 20:57:37
To be honest, I think there are a few posters on here who are much worse than standard keyboard warriors and theyre the passive aggressive know-it-alls. They are the ones who try to shut down every other opinion with pseudo-intellectual responses whereupon they seem desperate to demonstrate their vastly superior footballing knowledge.
I wish we had a function to block others!
51 Posted 02/09/2019 at 21:15:59
People jump on the band-wagon, and start agreeing with certain views and then the very next week the man with the view, has suddenly changed his mind, and you only have to look at the weeks leading up to the Brexit vote, to realise that this goes on all the time!
52 Posted 02/09/2019 at 21:17:01
Fully agree. Some would argue with themselves if nobody responded to them.
53 Posted 02/09/2019 at 22:10:07
You do have a function to "block" others -- it's the mouse wheel. If I'm not interested in a particular poster's opinion, I just scroll down past it. Works every time.
54 Posted 03/09/2019 at 03:10:34
Before every game, the pre-match thread is: “ffs, such-and-such is playing. The player gets torn into before a ball has been kicked.
You can add to any player we are after with any of the following added, too old, too slow, too small, do not want him.
The point I am trying to make is not giving that player a chance before a ball has been kicked.
Again, I will bring up Gareth Barry, Gueye and Delph, all those three players got ripped into, one for being too old, one from a relegated team, with the latter “If he's not good enough for Pep.”
In a way, it is being too hasty with the keyboard, judging someone before a match.
We see it, week-in & week-out, pre-match team announcement and certain players will get the flak. “We're going to lose this with whoever in the side.”
I am all for putting a view across after a game or during, but to become Nostradamus before a ball is kicked is a fine art in itself.
Finally, I agree we all have differing views, that's what makes this such a great site for us Evertonian; however, the name-calling or trying to belittle someone's view to try to turn it to the others advantage is a no for me.
Let's stick to the banter, the difference of opinions we have, and get behind our football club.
55 Posted 03/09/2019 at 08:46:02
Hi Brian , my sentiment word for word. I not only dislike the fact that some are prepared to dismiss the suitability of players, but some of them do it (in my opinion) in an objectionable manner.
56 Posted 03/09/2019 at 09:22:19
Football is the same, it polarises opinion, and people are extremely passionate about it.
There are people on here who are hellbent on making their opinion heard, and will back it up vociferously, and at all costs, never once bending to another person's will, and that's fine, just remember you'll never be able to stop them so countering the points over & over again is a bit like driving round a roundabout all afternoon. Eventually you'll be sick all over yourself.
I've taken to writing things that nobody responds to, or just taking the piss gently, which is far more relaxing & fruitful. Lovers not fighters.
57 Posted 03/09/2019 at 09:32:44
Incidentally, he was obviously an outstanding mathematical physicist, a 'genius' in the popular image, but he was amongst other contemporary outstanding mathematical physicists who had developed much of the bulk of relativity and quantum theory. It was Einstein who made the final push in relativity, bringing together the existing work into a new model.
James @56: Yes, debates usually become polarised, but that doesn't stop the 'non-warriors' from looking at ranges of possibilities rather than extremes. As you say, Brexit is an example. People shout at one another without even considering important features.
58 Posted 03/09/2019 at 09:40:40
Speaking of representation – how representative of Everton supporters in general are we here? There are no other similar big forums for Everton fans I am aware of and most people find their way online nowadays.
If we are fairly representative, it gives more fuel to discussions, forms a better guide to the opinions and feelings of the wider fanbase. It seems pretty obvious that the club already uses this website to pick up current concerns, making our efforts a bit less futile.
59 Posted 03/09/2019 at 09:45:55
Anyway, regarding the over-bearing, patronising, repeat ad nauseum until others are browbeat into submission type opinions offered by some on here, would it be possible to have a "Reply" type button, so that whose who wish to engage in interminable personal debate can continue their discussions but allow those who choose not to be involved to continue the debate separately?
Sometimes a thread is so interesting, it's a shame to ignore it entirely because it's been taken over by someone who is determined to win an argument at all costs.
60 Posted 03/09/2019 at 11:19:31
Often I read a piece which is followed by lively debate only for a few posters to then monopolise input for the purpose of having the final say and the upper hand. Seemingly at any cost. Frequently (in such circumstances) at the cost of otherwise readable thread.
No place for name calling. Challenge someones facts, opinion or interpretation by all means but for heavens sake show some consideration to others who are also interested.
You may represent the popular view, be correct with your facts and still be as dull as ditch-water. (I think that this post of mine is about as dull as I could manage. Bugger).
61 Posted 03/09/2019 at 11:53:39
I think you're right in modifying or changing a view, however, in my case it's because I can't remember what I said an hour ago ! Think it's an age thing.
Sometimes you don't have a chance to change your opinion. I haven't a clue how they do it, but a couple of posters can look up a post someone has written years ago, they highlight a sentence or line which completely takes the thrust of the post out of context as "proof" that we are morons, idiots or whatever in word is prevalent at that time.
Pointless arguing then and best to just switch off.
62 Posted 03/09/2019 at 12:28:51
Possibly, yes, though you never see people admit to having changed their minds online!
I've definitely changed my mind over footballing matters, 100%.
63 Posted 03/09/2019 at 12:38:25
I never understand the desire of some folks to 'be right' or have the last word. It's easier to be wrong and be willing to learn. If you posture to be 'right', you're setting yourself up for a fall.
If you're in an argument, online or offline, and stick your heels in, chances are the other person also sticks their heels in. In contrast, if you admit to being wrong or not knowing, often the other person will join in such an admission, and the situation can be instantly defused. People can become less defensive. It doesn't work all the time, but it works often enough to be useful.
Being right is a bit like in those films where someone wants to be master of the universe. When they finally achieve it, there's sod-all left to achieve, and nobody likes them, they become Billy-no-mates apart from hangers-on who they can't trust.
64 Posted 03/09/2019 at 12:53:47
65 Posted 03/09/2019 at 12:57:52
Plus, I don't make the rules.
Maybe I was being slightly flippant with my 'history' comment above, but you know what I mean. :)
66 Posted 03/09/2019 at 15:06:32
67 Posted 03/09/2019 at 18:58:40
Theres excellent opinions to be found even in those who chose to ‘play the poster rather than the opinion.
There are some who choose to openly provoke and use language to chip away at individuals. Maybe they believe its robust and part of a posting style, its a big turn off.
But lets be fair we can all occasionally fall into that trap. When I seek to interact I look for ways that posters respond to engage, thats for me is debate not some ego driven pissing contest.
Its definitely the worst part of the site.
Theyre the keyboard warriors, its a pejorative term, and rightly so.
The majority I believe do take on board what peoples perspectives are and sometimes change their point of view, use language of compromise and are gold on this site.
But rounding on the point, a club who has been mismanaged for decades and had no success, is it really surprising that many of the views stem from the realistic to down right negative? I think its actually a fair reflection, across a broad church, of where Everton are.
68 Posted 03/09/2019 at 19:22:01
69 Posted 03/09/2019 at 19:32:38
70 Posted 03/09/2019 at 20:26:02
Do not try to make TW a vanilla site because of minor infractions. Some of you may be saints and members of the temperance movement, I ain't, so I do not judge others by my (lack of) standards.
There are some lovely characters on this site and all with different styles; we should welcome them all and not try to muzzle or censor their opinion. I find some posters annoying but next thread find their opinion is aligned with mine.
So, to go back to the tone and nuance. Face to face over a coffee or a beer calling someone deluded or talking out of their arse can be fine. That takes on a new meaning when written and then read by the person aimed at.
71 Posted 04/09/2019 at 00:28:59
72 Posted 04/09/2019 at 00:31:14
I stand by my opinion, clearly shared by many other respected in-putters, that we, repeat, WE, are all 100% Everton fans/supporters.
I respect both Darren and Jay in that light. I've gone on record in respecting their opinions on the team/club, whilst criticising their smug, condescending vitriol to fellow fans who have the temerity to offer a different opinion to their own.
In my opinion, both of them are these days not quite so visceral, unless it's against each other - and it's pure entertainment when that happens, so, all-in-all, I'm very happy with what I read from the full "membership". Long may it continue.
Thank you Lyndon, and Michael.
73 Posted 04/09/2019 at 07:12:14
I actually penned in five names of people who would gravitate to this thread and, just as I knew I would, I now have the complete set. People who consider themselves whiter than white, people who feel they are entitled to cast opinion on where other people go wrong... They must have no mirrors in their houses.
Well as I have been named three times. I guess I ought to respond.
I have already decided to offer articles (in the hope they will be published) and significantly reign in the number of times I post. So with no ban to deter me. I can be totally honest.
I took dogs abuse on this site when I railed against certain managers and derided signings when others were cheering from the roof tops. I was told I was "Not an Evertonian". I was a "miserable cunt", a "negative fucker"... I don't have time to list the names I was called.
I had two choices: Fire back, or stop posting... Actually, I had three. I could have ignored the insults and carried on.
Unfortunately, I'm not a big enough man to turn the other cheek, However, contrary to what some believe, I would never sink to reverting to the sort of nasty cowardly abuse I've seen from some of the paragons of virtue above. I decide to respond in a different way. Ridicule.
When people told me I was a negative fucker, I would dismiss them as happy clappers. If they tried to dismiss me as being in a "minoritiy of one", I would belittle them by dubbing them as the "baying handful".
I soon realised I was very good at this ridicule lark. I was scoring direct hits. Those who sought to attack me were getting far angrier than I ever did. The self-proclaimed "piss-takers" were having the piss taken out of them on a scale they couldn't comprehend.
This small group have kinda pursued me over the seasons. They know who they are. I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy being their bad guy. I would be lying if I said I didn't cultivate the persona. I loved that they would be frothing at their PCs and I would be chuckling at mine.
Not long back, I decided that I would put a stop to this childishness (and that's what it is) because I unintentionally hurt a very genuine Evertonian. I had been accused of being a naive fool wearing rose-tinted glasses. I responded by calling a group of people "white-flag merchants" – a spiteful remark. It was unlike others I'd made, because it was done in anger. I realised right then that you can't simply hit your intended targets. When aiming into a group. you will always hit a few bystanders.
I guess this is my apology to the bystanders. However., those who think they can tell other posters to "shut the fuck up", then come on this thread holier then thou. The coward who called a fanatical Evertonian (Marshy) a "fucking Gobshite" on the Live Forum but still thinks he can come on this thread and lecture others about only posting what you would say to a guy's face.
Those charming people on here, who, on a weekly basis, disgracefully bully the fuck out of one person on the live forum – Dick Brady knows more than any of you, btw.
Those who constantly seek confrontation and scream and wave imaginary cards to the mods when they get it. Those who have never cleaned the mirrors in their house. Those Port and Lemon drinking hypocrites.
No apology... just a little word of advice: Get your own houses in order and this place will be cleaned up quicker than Dodge City.
74 Posted 04/09/2019 at 08:03:19
There are only 2 or 3 people I struggle to abide and they post very rarely now (banned perhaps) but were prone to name calling without any actual argument. If you're gonna have a go at someone, at least state a counter-position to debate or else it's mere playground stuff.
Suffice to say we all feel pretty passionately about Everton or else we would not spend so much time on here! A difference of opinion is inevitable and crucial; when that veers into vendettas and bullying, it can sometimes be amusing and sometimes be tiresome but it's usually fairly clear if someone is crossing the line.
76 Posted 04/09/2019 at 09:33:59
Fully agree with the last paragraph of your post.
77 Posted 04/09/2019 at 09:36:24
Anyone who disagrees with me is just a Kopite.
78 Posted 04/09/2019 at 09:37:55
There is the odd abuser who targets their pet posters, who normally fades when asked for their opinion by the posters concerned and by others posters who will not stand by such conduct. As people post more, their views become known and their opinions are able to develop, under the scrutiny of other posters, which is a great test.
The columnists and contributors who take the trouble to put forward articles of their observations and opinions are invaluable in guiding the debates and are acknowledged for their wonderful contributions. There are no other Everton fan website that allows such varied opinions, which obviously are heartfelt.
Of course, I like my opinions recognised and supported and do have difficulty admitting that I am wrong or got it wrong. Hopefully, I will get better at this, after all I am not going to get the compensation that Silva will get if he does, like previous managers.
ToffeeWeb allows fans who are not able to readily attend matches, particularly those who may not have the means to attend regularly and our overseas friends, to be part of the Everton Fan Community.
It's much better than depending on the Club, who have reduced communication with fans, becoming more PR orientated; attending the odd match; biased and annoying pundits; and newspapers who promote certain teams.
79 Posted 04/09/2019 at 12:29:53
80 Posted 04/09/2019 at 13:48:42
On Everton, you and I have a great deal in common, and you are very readable to me, as I've repeatedly told you. Thanks.
81 Posted 04/09/2019 at 14:16:38
Jesus how can a civilized country like Italy have people who are SO uncivilized in their outlook and behaviour? Their letter basically explained the monkey noise chants as not racist but as something to "have a go at other teams players." They explained the noises from the away supporters weren't meant to be racist but a sign that they fear Lukaku's goals against them.
As if that wasn't enough, Scott Brown, on his way out of the stadium to the coach after the Old Firm game was asked by a Rangers supporter "How's your sister?" Brown's sister died at the age of 21 from cancer. Absolutely unfucking believable.
Put's a little bit of argy bargy on here into perspective, doesn't it?
85 Posted 04/09/2019 at 14:57:53
Ruining two good drinks in one!
I nearly cried at Christmas when I presented my Brazilian father-in-law with a 20-year-old-port from the port houses of Porto itself...and he topped up his glass with Coca-frigging-Cola!
86 Posted 04/09/2019 at 15:03:35
87 Posted 04/09/2019 at 15:08:37
We've even found things to agree on -- a shock to which I'm still adjusting!
88 Posted 04/09/2019 at 15:11:03
I took you literally!
Still a mucky bugger if you (or anybody...) do corrupt a good port (or whiskey) with any other foreign bodies, mind.
89 Posted 04/09/2019 at 15:36:41
90 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:11:43
The level of debate, analysis and courtesy seems to me to be generally very high. I suspect that for many of us TW is a real pleasure and comfort. That's as it should be – and part of the pleasure comes from vigorous, sometimes unsparing "give and take".
Long may it all continue.
91 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:24:20
Guilty your honour.
However you, my friend, were no shrinking violet. You could more than look after yourself and were not adverse to leaving a foot in either.
I respected that. as I respect Jay Wood's NQANG approach.
Never heard or seen either of you guys complain about what came back over the net... I never considered you Hypocrites.
A truly bizarre thread which, in hindsight and the benefit of eight hours sleep, I feel should have finished with Paul T's post back at #39.
92 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:26:44
93 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:47:01
You've lost me on that one, Darren. I don't have a Scooby what that means.
I fancy Eddie Dunn might be poaching it though and using it to glean triple letter and word scores in his losing Scrabble marathon with his missus!
94 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:52:53
95 Posted 04/09/2019 at 16:59:23
She also said that it was easy dishing it out but hard going taking it.
Definition of a Keyboard Warrior??
96 Posted 04/09/2019 at 17:10:06
How are you at Scrabble?! Eddie needs some help!
97 Posted 05/09/2019 at 04:46:42
I just think that we are all long-suffering Everton supporters, myself included. I do wonder what a psychologist would make of us all though.
By the way, Darren, I have always found your articles good.
98 Posted 05/09/2019 at 05:21:04
Ray #95, thank you for the translation. Would never have gotten that one.
Tony #91, I applaud your honesty, sir. In fact, I drink to it.
99 Posted 05/09/2019 at 08:57:30
100 Posted 05/09/2019 at 14:39:25
101 Posted 05/09/2019 at 23:31:35
102 Posted 05/09/2019 at 23:52:39
The common cause we have in our veins is Everton. Strength and honour together, and we make a massive difference.
103 Posted 06/09/2019 at 01:15:48
That pretty much nails it, as does Paul Tran's point that he wouldn't post anything on here about a poster or a player that he wouldn't say to their face. Criticism and abuse are different - one leads to a debate and the other leads to a smack in the face. Those who hide behind social media to dish out abuse disguised as criticism or not disguised at all are what I would describe as 'keyboard warriors'.
104 Posted 06/09/2019 at 01:24:34
105 Posted 06/09/2019 at 02:46:18
I have a solution to keyboard warriors and personal abuse on TW.
Direct it all at me. I dont mind.
I might take umbrage, but it will be brief. 😜
106 Posted 06/09/2019 at 07:48:05
107 Posted 06/09/2019 at 21:35:28
I've had a few lively encounters with a couple of posters (they know who they are) and I've always taken the mantra to address people in the same way they address me, but I did come to the realisation towards the end of last season that by speaking to them in the same way, I'm not going to make them have an epiphany that they sometimes cross the line. Instead, I'm just gonna prod the bear so to speak, and make them even more abusive. It was also naughty on my part cos it was done to get the reaction and get them going.
What I will say in favour of the same people, is that they're very informed and have a knowledge that is second to none. I've often wondered whether TW should organise an annual get together? I'd love to put faces to the names of some of the people I've chatted to over the years.
108 Posted 07/09/2019 at 11:21:05
109 Posted 09/09/2019 at 00:29:05
110 Posted 09/09/2019 at 01:08:30
Yes indeed. There is the ToffeeWeb Golf Day at Frodsham Friday 20th September before the Sheffield Utd game. Breakfast at 11 and tee off 11.30 and 11.40 including buggy for £25.
111 Posted 09/09/2019 at 07:37:09
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