Shit win over a shit club

by   |   30/10/2019  80 Comments  [Jump to last]

As usual, after a dismal win at home against a turgid team we should always be beating, some people think everything is alright. Again. Until the next dreadful performance and result, coming along pretty soon.

Until the real problems at the club are recognised and dealt with, and they truly run deep, the club will stutter along embarrassingly, losing lifetime, die-hard supporters hand over fist, until disaster inevitably arrives.

How people can't see it is beyond me. Where's the next generation of Everton fans coming from? Sitting in a boozer in America?

Last night was meaningless; this team can't win that cup, it will collapse at the first bad draw, you know it and I do.

The club is rotten from top to bottom, a shit cup win against a shit team doesn't paper over the cracks and people who give stick to those like me who won't accept it and can't see past the last result are part of the problem.

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Tony Marsh
1 Posted 30/10/2019 at 14:34:17
Anyone who realistically thinks we can win this cup with Silva as manager needs serious therapy. Once we get an away tie or a Premier League side, we are going out. No ifs, No buts... OUT!!!

The real problem that last night's win over Watford will bring is the stay of execution for Marco Silva. Marco keeping his job will allow him to continue on his quest for relegation. Billy Bullshitter is an old delusional romantic who will believe you can't sack a manager when you're still in a Cup Competition.

Last night's victory brings with it more perils than who we get next in the draw. We are in serious serious trouble with this clown Marco Silva in charge. Please, will you forget about winning this Cup. It's not happening. We aren't good enough — and if you look at the recent winners, it's usually one of the big boys. We aren't one of the big boys.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
3 Posted 30/10/2019 at 16:11:20
For many years at ToffeeWeb, we have laboured under the burden of "negativity". And I thought, after I was done last night with my Match Report, that I had been pretty scathing after what was, in the end, an important win for the team and the club — even if it was very painfully extracted from the jaws of dismal mediocrity. But the posts from you two lads above (Paul and Tony) really take the cake.

Now I may not be the most enthusiastic and positive match reporter (step forward, Paul Trail, and well done for your astoundingly consistent positive spin on our seemingly eternal ineptitude) but I've always had a beef with people who make negative predictions — as distinct from (not 'negative' but) realistic post-match analysis — which is what I firmly believe in.

Over the last few weeks, each bad result brought out a few of these what I will call Conspiracy Theory posts that do as you both do — pointing up systemic and endemic failure spanning all levels across the entire club structure ("rotten to the core") as direct cause for our on-field incompetence — even when we win!

While I've never been a personal fan of Bill Kenwright, I think if you set aside your pre-existing prejudices and actually listen to Denise Barrett-Baxendale speak... well, I for one was impressed with her bearing, her confidence, and the content of what she said about the club. This was on a podcast a few months back and came for me as something of a shock after I'd bought-in – hook, line and sinker – to Gerard McKean's unique inside perspectives on what was really going on behind the scenes, and her promotion to CEO, and what a bitch she could be.

Now yes, I admit, she could be (probably is) an expert at putting on a pleasant public mask that is very different from her private persona, where – in her position – an uncompromising ruthlessness is absolutely needed. All I can say, as very much an outsider, is that she comes across really well and is a breath of fresh air compared to the arrant nonsense Kenwright spouts every time he opens his mouth.

I can fully understand a mindset that looks on what we have in Everton Football Club as falling well, well below the level and standard of where we need to be. But it's the need for 'inverse virtue signalling' that puts you two at the front of the line when it comes time to say "Told you so!!!" — must you continually bore us with these assertions and predictions that really do nothing to address the issues you claim are keeping us anchored in perennial failure?

You have both played this "Fans' Fault" card in maintaining that it's the fault of the fans in putting up with a situation that others would not tolerate, the key comparison here being the supposed ousting of Gillette and Hicks across the park, compared with the sound beating Blue Union would get from the mainstream fanbase when they tried in vain to raise concerns about Kenwright's tenure.

Presonally, I don't really believe the fans have much influence (although Peter Johnson maintained that his treatment by Evertonians is what ultimately drove him out of the club). Unless you really have some proof of the malfeasance contaminating everything the club tries to do, can't we just hold back on rolling out the same old baseless cliches and, yes, incessant negativity that really just drags everybody down?

Kieran Kinsella
4 Posted 30/10/2019 at 16:21:46
Michael

I'd agree. “Rotten to the core” is a sound bit but what does it really mean? Is there a termite problem at Goodison? I'm not a happy camper myself but, rather than histrionic doom-mongering, I would prefer practical solutions.

I suspect we erred in appointing Silva and we may have to sack him to avoid the drop but we are not quite at that point and maybe he will turn it around.

But in tangible terms, I am unclear what Tony Marsh and Co would have us do? Burn down Goodison? Bring in the guillotine, then have a mob vote as to future team selection?

Dave Abrahams
5 Posted 30/10/2019 at 16:29:53
Michael, if Denise Barrett-Baxendale was talking about football, is there any chance you could put the article on ToffeeWeb or indicate where I could find it?
Stan Schofield
6 Posted 30/10/2019 at 16:34:08
I haven't seen ANY posts on ToffeeWeb that say everything is alright, so the first sentence of the article seems incorrect. I've seen loads of posts that try to put the win into context, assessing the performance, mostly in very reasonable ways. The article just looks like tantrum throwing. I know Everton are very disappointing, but get a grip!
Steve Hogan
7 Posted 30/10/2019 at 17:01:37
Michael (3)

'Inverse virtue signalling', last used I believe by Tom Cruise on his introduction to Scientology. Explain please...

Michael Kenrick
8 Posted 30/10/2019 at 17:46:44
Dave,

It was Alan Meyers Podcast from June: Royal Blue Podcast: Episode 4, starting at around 15:30 into the podcast. More about the internal management structure, stadium, Director of Football, Royal Liver Building, Goodison legacy... probably too much off-field stuff for you, I suspect.

Good one, Steve (#7).

If "virtue signalling" is making out how good you are for all to appreciate, then these two are showing what bad-asses they can be. So "smug posturing from a position of self-appointed authority" but without the
positive actions to go with. I don't think the antonym, "vice signalling", really conveys the lack of any virtue in their position.

Brent Stephens
9 Posted 30/10/2019 at 17:59:01
"Until the real problems at the club are recognised and dealt with... How people can't see it is beyond me".

Paul, you haven't even tried to offer an opinion on what the real problems are, or their cause, or their solution. That would be a good starting point for an opinion piece.

So this just strikes me as no more than many posts on various forums - a way to let off steam, elevated to an opinion piece.

Paul Ferry
10 Posted 30/10/2019 at 18:24:35
Tony Marsh was the first to come up with the non-blue "I'd rather we lost this to get rid of Silva" line on yesterday's live forum. A few others then jumped in, following the General of doom and gloom. Things took a fairly nasty turn and for that we have Marshy to blame.

I simply cannot get my head round this ‘I'd rather lose' heresy. It always leads to bickering and worse and it smells of attention-seeking. Mr Marsh's repetitive glum dark cloud ranting on anything to do with our Everton is well boring. Heaven knows but if someone had the daring audacity to predict a sunny outcome for a match, the ‘I'd rather lose' crew would bark about "cart before the horse, cart before the horse…"

Constructive criticism is vital in all walks of life and not least in this matter of Everton FC. The other thing that does my head in is all those pithy one-liners – ‘[insert name of choice ] out!' or ‘We won't win anything with this clown in charge' – that could badly do with the merest touch of constructive engagement.

What Marshy says about the cup above is negativity of the pathological sort that borders on compulsive disorder. Ignore it but be astonished or maybe not given that it comes from the keys of ToffeeWeb's own prince of darkness.

Mike Gaynes
11 Posted 30/10/2019 at 21:53:06
Michael, fine response at #3, but in keeping with the author's style, I would simply have summarized it this way:

Shit column.
Total shit regarding fans being "part of the problem."
Shit first response.

That's about it.

Dave Abrahams
12 Posted 30/10/2019 at 21:58:03
Michael (@8),

Yes I'm afraid you are correct, heard all that talk before, bored me to tears. I doubt very much if she knows an awful lot about the actual game.

Jamie Crowley
13 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:10:12
As a proud member of the next generation of Everton fans sitting in a boozer in America, I have to say if Everton gets more of us types as supporters, we're well and truly fucked!

David Pearl
14 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:10:35
Pretty sure that there isn't any Evertonian thinking that because we won 1 game that things are alright.

The club off the field is changing and going forward. Mistakes have been made in recruitment, nobody can deny that either. Brands will get another couple transfer windows minimum. Silva won't.

Dave, l don't think "explain the offside rule" was part of the interview process. Maybe it should..

David Pearl
15 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:17:04
Jamie, this is a local shop for local people, we don't want your kind around here.

https://youtu.be/meF7NmfnXZ0

Jim Wilson
16 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:34:40
Spot-on comment from Paul Burns, followed by spot-on comment from Tony Marsh.

Silva needs to go now and we need a top replacement. We will soon hit a group of hard games and if Silva is still here we will be in the shit. Get rid without delay.

Dennis Stevens
17 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:40:25
I vote for more shit wins, please!
Jamie Crowley
18 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:41:48
Don't want a shop full of people or any new roads, Mr Pearl!
Brian Williams
19 Posted 30/10/2019 at 22:43:24
Does she need to know lots about the game? That's Silva's job surely?

She needs to know about the business side of things. With regard to that it really doesn't matter whether she knows a 4-3-3 from an "Oh for fuck's sake."

If the footy side of things is left to the footy people and the business side to those skilled in business, that's the perfect formula in my book.

Will that necessarily bring us success?

No, not at all but it's a good start.

Anton Walsh
20 Posted 30/10/2019 at 23:13:47
Jim #16,

Which are the hard games?

Last season, we beat Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea in a few weeks. Drew with Liverpool.

This season, we've been done by Sheffield United, Burnley, Aston Villa, Bournemouth, and Brighton. It's that attitude that got us beat in those games by thinking they're not hard games.

Don Alexander
21 Posted 30/10/2019 at 23:27:34
I don't see why Paul and Tony deserve to be denigrated. Like them (I suspect) I'm mid-60's and remember the '63 side, was in love with the 69/70 side, was impressed by the mid 80's side and am massively depressed by the appalling way the club has been run ever since. Paul and Tony are Toffees, reflecting what many Toffees think as far as I'm concerned. Experiencing it at close quarters really hurts.

Our football, season after season, decade after decade, is, to put it mildly, mediocre. I genuinely can't remember a game where we thrashed somebody this century, in 20 years of embarrassment for a club of our history.

Since Moyes left, I have been hugely unimpressed with the "heart" displayed by our team/s (and, no, I don't rate Moyes that highly) and it's still ongoing.

I've gone on and on citing individuals still in lofty positions at the club and Finch Farm as being inept but, it has to be said, there are still fellow Toffees who post in admiration and support of those very people. It mystifies me.

Everton are run by humans, not voodoo. Humans have to be held to account. Running a club like ours, if you've won no silverware for the longest span of our history, it's way past the time to bugger off.

But leeches don't, do they?

Brian Williams
22 Posted 30/10/2019 at 23:58:07
Does our past success give us any more right to expect success now than the 12 or so other Premier League clubs who never win anything? Or those clubs who we played against in the mid 80's and are now languishing in the lower divisions?

Do supporters of other mid-table clubs, of which we are one in truth, suffer and moan about their own lack of success? The likes of Bournemouth for instance. Are they as unhappy as we Evertonians are? I doubt it, but if not why not?

Is it only those of us of a certain age, who enjoyed the success of the mid 80's, who feel a certain way?

I often wonder whether our younger supporters, who've never known success, are as unhappy, or are their expectations vastly different from older supporters?

Kieran Kinsella
23 Posted 31/10/2019 at 00:11:09
Don @21,

I wouldn't class yourself alongside Paul Burns and Tony Marsh. You have your theory that BK was and is the problem. I agree with the former, less so the later but at least you have a specific thought.

Paul is just ranting that everything is "shit" without offering opinions as to why or resolutions as to how to fix it. Tony Marsh meanwhile is a disgraced poster given his description of Goodison as "an embarrassing shit hole" whilst opposing the new stadium as it doesn't support his preferred timeline.

He also spent years demanding we sign David Nugent for £10 million and for a time was an avid fan of Roberto Martinez and Fat Sam. So his rants lack credibility because of his past bizarre opinions.

Meanwhile, you tend to have fairly well-made points that some people agree with, while others disagree.

Mike Gaynes
24 Posted 31/10/2019 at 00:18:22
Nobody "denigrated" Paul or Tony. Just what they wrote. Which isn't the same thing.

That some people can't tell the difference "mystifies" me.

But then, I'm just another one of those "boozer in America" clods like Jamie.

Don Alexander
25 Posted 31/10/2019 at 00:27:41
Brian (#22), to me your question amounts to a matter of philosophy allied with honest endeavour (sadly absent for 30 years and counting) to bring the club and its fans, not just those employed by it, success.

Bournemouth have Southampton and Portsmouth to deal with as derby opponents. We have Liverpool.

If anyone in our boardroom since the inception of the Premier League didn't realise the ramifications and responsibilities incumbent on them, more shame on them (all but one in the boardroom have slung their hooks, of course, frustrated and then some – probably – about his greedy inertia).

Any such chairman should have realised the reality of falling short within a season or two max and behaved accordingly to progress our club into trophy-winning contenders. No such person has consistently prevailed in our boardroom since the establishment of the Premier League.

And even though our greatest ever fan (according to him) is still in post, now "enhanced" according to Moshiri himself this season, some Toffees still seemingly ponder who's been the crux of our demise in the past thirty years?

No shit, Sherlock.

And thanks for the heads-up, Kieran (genuinely), but I still consider Paul and Tony to be 100% Toffees.

Andy Crooks
26 Posted 31/10/2019 at 00:48:23
Jim @ 16, I agree with you to some extent. I would like a new coach. However, Paul Burns and Tony Marsh are not "spot on". The club is not" rotten from top to bottom", that is just cretinous nonsense. Our club is not perfect, but still worth supporting..

Tony Marsh? Well, he is, in his own mind, a "proper" Evertonian. He speaks his mind, calls it as he sees etc, etc. Only thing is, he never, ever, ever says one positive thing about our club. Oh, hang on, he did.

He was totally evangelical about his beloved "fireman Sam". Yep, he loved the fat man. His posts are there. So hates Silva, loved Allardyce.

Back to the OP." People who give stick to those like me who won't accept it and can't see past the last result are part of the problem".

Oh for the love of fuck. Tell me, Paul, how does your non-acceptance manifest itself? Are you planning a march? Are you and Tony going to chain yourselves to railings somewhere?

It is all shit, Paul, well fucking spotted. Stamp your feet. Throw a tantrum. Yes, you and Tony will not fucking accept this – while the rest of us just love it.

Derek Thomas
27 Posted 31/10/2019 at 01:07:41
Don @ 21; you have to pry 'leeches' off very carefully because they often leave a bit of themselves behind, which festers, gets infected and causes more deep-seated problems, than the slow drain ever did.

I have sympathy for both ends of the spectrum from Tony Marsh to all the sunshine lollipops and rainbow merchants.

Average the total of all our league positions for 100 years and you get 8th-ish. But when we're good, we're very, very, good (which is what hooks you in; that and being easily impressed when you're nine) and when we are (relatively like now) bad, boy do we stink. But mostly we are average... in this day and age 'average' is the new bad.

We're all of us, little internet Veruca Salts (but old enough that we should know better); we want it now.

Add to that, besides being plain unlucky (which we are, we're the ying to Liverpool's yang, because there has to be a balance) we don't do 'dynasties'... not many do, but the two that do (or did) happened to be our nearest neighbours.

There IS no magic formula; if there was, Kendall Mk II & III would have won the league.

Could we be run better? No doubt: yes, we could. But, strange as it may seem, yes, we could also be run worse.

This is the life of an Evertonian. If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined. Get used to it, hope we get lucky. Don't like it? Walk away then. Nope? Me neither... not happening.

Everton That.

Who's next? Spurs? Them? They're shite lads, we'll batter them (mind drifts back to Alex Young soaring majestically)...

Of course we will, haven't I just told you they're shite? In the quantum EFC world we live in, all things are possible at any one time – that's half the fun.

Oh, btw, Silva out; he IS shite.

Bill Gienapp
28 Posted 31/10/2019 at 02:19:58
Sorry, but what is the point of this? As others have noted, there's no substance here, no argument. Nothing to discuss or debate. Just a childish "We're shite, everything's shite, the entire club is shite and if you disagree then you're shite too" temper tantrum.

Also, kudos to Andy for calling out the false bravado, as if Paul's "non-acceptance" amounts to anything beyond spewing toxic bile on this site.

As it were, my reaction to this is the same as my reaction to all of Paul's posts.

*YAWN*

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
29 Posted 31/10/2019 at 03:13:39
Good question, Bill, and great post — on the nail.

Paul Burns has been sending us a relentless stream of shit posts and I guess I just felt it was time to share. But I can't fault your response.

I know it's almost impossible to change the way people think, but perhaps from this thread, Paul and Tony might just be forced to reconsider some of their more ridiculous assertions?

Nah, I won't hold my breath. It ain't gonna happen.

Dave @12, in that case, I don't know what you expect to hear from a CEO. I guess I should have known you wanted her to talk 'football' and when she talks business, you switch off. Don't you think at least she comes across a lot better than Kenwright? Or Dunford, for that matter? A more direct comparison.

Lyndon Lloyd
30 Posted 31/10/2019 at 05:35:53
"Paul Burns has been sending us a relentless stream of shit posts and I guess I just felt it was time to share. "

I can't see the logic in that. Paul's been banned from posting ever since he admitted he has spent the past few months sending in deliberately inflammatory posts to get a reaction.

I don't see why he then deserves to get a Talking Points piece published and ridiculous, unsubstantiated blanket statements like "the club is rotten to the core" are simply more evidence of that. If we weren't already 28 comments in, I'd say bin it personally.

Paul Hewitt
31 Posted 31/10/2019 at 05:51:12
So much for free speech.
Paul Hewitt
32 Posted 31/10/2019 at 06:14:27
I have to say, the response from the Webmaster who runs this site is appalling. Whatever you think of this post, Paul has taken time to write and send it. To then have your post called shit by the people who run it is unbelievable. If you run a business, you don't call you customers "shit".
Andrew Dempsey
33 Posted 31/10/2019 at 06:30:51
This is all fantastic stuff, I love it.

And a little meta-peek behind the curtain too.

Great work, fellas.

Mike Gaynes
34 Posted 31/10/2019 at 07:19:58
Paul #31/32, do you have any concept of what "free speech" actually means?

It means the right to say or write whatever you want.

It does NOT include the right to have it published wherever you want (or the right to evade the consequences of it).

Like any publisher, the ToffeeWeb administrators have the absolute right to decline to publish something on their site that doesn't measure up to their standards, for reasons of quality, taste, accuracy, relevance or anything else. And they also have the absolute right to publish it and then exercise their own free speech by calling it shit.

Lyndon would have preferred the former path. Michael chose the latter. Having read some of the "relentless stream of shit posts" from the author of this article, I don't think either of them is wrong. I think you are.

And just for the record, they are not "running a business" -- businesses make money for their owners, TW does not.

Anthony Flack
35 Posted 31/10/2019 at 08:01:47
Annoyed by the original article and initial comment – I am not really, I just don't agree with it. The free speech question is not really relevant and is often a distraction.

It rarely makes sense to ban opinion other than where clearly sexist or racist - which this post is not.

It should not morph into a critique of the editors to whom many of us are extremely grateful for the work put into helping us support our lovely club.

Mike Gaynes sums it up very nicely in his short poem at post 11.

Everyone have a good day.

Dermot Byrne
36 Posted 31/10/2019 at 08:33:51
To me it often seems like the most negative or pessimistic link their outlook with a sense that they are the "real" fans, they suffer the most and they have unltra-sharp 50:50 vision unlike the naïve, misguided others.

Equally they are ironically seen as just serial moaners who suffer out of habit and and blind to the views of others.

Sure I have seen similar squabbles on line about Europe!

I love to dip in and out of spats with some folk on here and bring my own stereotypes to my content I guess.

The problem with format of great sites like TW is all you have is a post and a name. In the real world you listen to what people say but also put it in context. Who is the speaker? What are their motives? What experiences have they had? Their age? Etc etc

I can hear a simplistic disagreement with this coming and a claim that the words stand or fall without all that context.

Well they may well do so but it makes debate polarised and folk move to silos they feel comfortable in.

I never do that of course!🍸

Brent Stephens
37 Posted 31/10/2019 at 08:42:52
Paul #31 / 32 - Paul Burns had his piece published; others had their say on that. What's not to like?
Duncan McDine
38 Posted 31/10/2019 at 08:46:31
Blaming fellow Evertonians for the crap footy currently being served is more than a bit wanky. Reminds me of when my wife has a right go at me when it's the kids that are winding her up! Get a grip, FFS.
Eddie Dunn
39 Posted 31/10/2019 at 08:51:46
It's all very simple really, if you don't like the club, the coach the players the football played or the old ground then just don't go, don't buy Sky/Bt and don't travel all over the country wasting your money.

I went regularly in the late seventies and moved away but still saw 10 games a year in London in the eighties. For the last 26 years I've lived in West Wales and get the odd game when visiting the city, or up in London.

I have, in the past travelled from here to London to watch us grind out a 1-0 defeat at Fulham and schlepped home despondent, out of pocket, having seen a Moyes team play non-football, losing to a poor side. This has happened many times. I got pissed-off with it.

Now I simply don't force myself to go through it. I pick the odd game live, and watch the rest for free or on BT. My weekends are still ruined but to less a degree.

The point a lot of people make is that (sin,ce the growth in Season tickets) fans go and watch when they are angry with things, instead of not attending. In the past, the lower attendances were a very clear way for the club to realise that fans were unhappy.

Instead we see our lads running out to a sea of plastic flags and lots of people waving them enthusiastically. Then they were served-up the worst 45 minutes of football I have seen in years.

Marshy and co are entitled to their rants and most people who I hear at the game sit near someone just like them. It's a broad church and it takes all sorts. Perhaps the club need to hear a few angry voices instead of them sitting away from the plebs, with their corporate guests and chauffeured transport.

Dave Abrahams
40 Posted 31/10/2019 at 09:18:26
Michael (29), I did ask you if Denise was talking about football, you kindly pointed out that she wasn't and I politely replied that I'd heard her before on non-football topics and wouldn't be interested on the business side.
Peter Mills
41 Posted 31/10/2019 at 09:38:17
Whenever one of us clicks the “Submit your Comment” button, there is, immediately below the button, a request to treat fellow posters with dignity and respect.

It’s not difficult.

Fran Mitchell
42 Posted 31/10/2019 at 09:45:09
In regards to fatalistic and pessimistic comments, who was it that so confidently proclaimed in the summer that Jonjoe Kenny would be 'found out' in Germany, that he was useless and Schalke would drop him as soon a step they realised their mistake.

"We are happy that we have him,” said the club’s sporting director, Jochen Schneider, in a chat with Bild. “Not only as a player but as a person of a type that suits Schalke. I hope we will."

Wonder if they'll admit they were wrong.

Dave Lynch
43 Posted 31/10/2019 at 10:05:40
Ah the vagaries of TW.

Wasn't it Mark Twain that said, "When everyone thinks the same, no one's really thinking."

Opinions and passion, it's the only thing we have left really as all hope for this season left on the last train to mediocrity.

Silva is useless, by the way.

Jim Wilson
44 Posted 31/10/2019 at 12:13:45
Andy Crooks - I have great respect for what you say and you are obviously a great Evertonian.

Opinions are all relative.I was lucky to appreciate the tail end of the great '60s side, when the chairman just wouldn't put up with rubbish or average management. Kenwright and now his successor seem to have no clue.

The appointment of the right manager is everything. Get the right manager and everything will fit into place. Picking the wrong manager and you can spend £300 million making your team worse.

I don't think Big Sam is Tony Marsh's first choice but, compared to Koeman & Silva I too would prefer him, not because Big Sam is anything special but because he is better than those two clowns.

I am in despair mate, I can't believe how bad we are and if we are not careful one day we will pay a heavy price. There is a top manager out there at the moment who we don't need to poach. He would make us hard to beat and win more games than Silva ever would, and he has a big personality to bug our rivals.

It's a no-brainer for me.

Paul Kelly
45 Posted 31/10/2019 at 12:59:43
Love the banter on here, Marshy is class, whether you agree or not, he always gets a debate, which is what this site is all about? Hey?

But Paul, OP "Where's the next generation of Everton fans coming from? Sitting in a boozer in America", don't think that was personally aimed insult at our cousin's across the pond but on that note, I fooking love their insight, each and every one of them, even that new bloke who is on speed!!!

Gaynes's trip to Goodison and subsequent article was heavenly, Jamie's posts and story of his friendship with his mate who he lost recently would bring a tear to a glass eye of the most hardened of people, there's a lot more (sorry not to include you), but if our next generation of fans came from a boozer in America, and they're half as passionate as yourself or the 'yanks' on here, what's to worry about?

Stephen Brown
46 Posted 31/10/2019 at 13:17:15
It certainly is a frustrating and worrying time!

I took my 5-year-old son to his first game on Tuesday and the first half was not a great advert for supporting the blues (he has no choice by the way!). My wife and daughters and wife also came with us as we thought we'd spend a couple of days in Liverpool too.

A couple of comments from my non-football following wife and daughters really stuck with me – it's all very biased towards Liverpool round here isn't it!! Shops, market stalls, flags, buildings all covered in RS memorabilia with the odd token Everton bit almost tagged along almost out of pity!

We visited the Cavern club which was fully decked out with pictures of Liverpool players old and new visiting, 30+ I counted until I found a picture of a youthful looking Arteta as the only reference to Everton!

I suppose the point I'm making is we are almost at crisis point for getting some sort of success before a lost generation of supporters! Whilst I can see some efforts being made by the club, and a new stadium will have a huge impact, we cannot afford many more poor decisions leading to poor results. Therefore, Silva really must be on borrowed time!

Danny Broderick
47 Posted 31/10/2019 at 13:55:26
As supporters, our main job is to support the team surely? I can understand anyone getting upset from time to time, but fans seem to have changed in the last 10 years. I can only speak about Everton fans, though I imagine other clubs are similar but not as passionate as us. Look at our last five managers:

Moyes - did a good job (not a great job, but a consistently good job). There were various times when a proportion of the fan base wanted him out, although overall he was given support.

Martinez - great start, but the fans turned against him and he had to go in the end.

Koeman - a good solid first season but again, the fans turned against him after a tough start to the season and he was forced out.

Allardyce - I have skipped past Unsworth as he was only keeping the seat warm. But Allardyce was never the fans’ choice and it was horrible going to the game under him, I remember hearing the fans singing ‘fuck off Sam Allardyce’ all game in his last game in charge. He simply had to go.

Silva - a decent first season in the end after a slow start, but the tide has turned and there are now increasing calls for his head after a poor start to the season.

We seem to have become one of those clubs where we stop getting behind the team when results are bad, and the calls for the managers head then start. The hyperbole seems to take over - the amount of times I’ve heard ‘he’ll get us relegated this fella’ when we have never seriously been in danger of relegation for the last 15 years or so...

We are capable of finding some good form - we did it last season. We can’t keep banging our head against the wall every year asking for the manager to be replaced. It doesn’t do anyone any good.

Kieran Kinsella
48 Posted 31/10/2019 at 14:06:42
Paul Hewitt 32

Just to clarify, Paul Burns "took the time" to say everything and everyone is shit. The site moderators respond by using the same word to describe his post, and they're in the wrong? What kind of detailed critique were you expecting from them?

Kieran Kinsella
49 Posted 31/10/2019 at 14:14:55
Pat Kelly

Paul's "Where's the next generation of Everton fans coming from? Sitting in a boozer in America", quote, if only! We are in different times zones. Not sure about the East Coast or Mike Gaynes in Oregon but here in Kansas City, the boozer isn't open at 9am when the games kick off.

So thanks a lot, Paul Burns, for that kick in the teeth and reminding me of all the joy I am missing out on versus the old days in blighty when I could in fact sit in the pub and listen to intellects such as yourself screaming abuse at a TV screen.

Peter Mills
50 Posted 31/10/2019 at 15:49:10
Kieran #50, just to help restore the balance, I always enjoy the contributions from across the Atlantic.

Gaynes can occasionally contribute something worth reading (sorry Mike!). Crowley and his boys sound a rootin' tootin' bunch. Bill Gienapp is pretty much on the money. The new kid in town (welcome Mark G) is a little over-enthusiastic but seldom wrong. And my great friend Terry White watches faithfully from the pan-handle down South and can always be relied upon to clamp down on any cussin' or grammatical errors.

The two guys who run this site do so superbly from that side of the pond. Add to that, we have Dr Everton himself, David France, holed up in Arizona, with his wife Elizabeth who speaks more knowledgeably and wisely than the rest of us put together. I know there are more.

I know The Yanks think they can look after themselves well enough, but they usually appreciate a bit of support from a Limey.

Steve Ferns
51 Posted 31/10/2019 at 15:53:07
Pete, I find the Americans have a refreshing perspective. They don't quite see football the way the British and Irish guys do. Gaynes in particular has some great observations. They certainly have more enthusiasm then us weary old Brits do. Not worn down enough by the Blues (yet!).
John McFarlane Snr
52 Posted 31/10/2019 at 16:09:00
Hi Lyndon[30] I wonder if you could tell me why my post [293] on the "Holgate Rescues A Turgid Cup Affair", had foul [possibly offensive] language inserted, [when I used astericks], you will no doubt have noted on various threads, my dislike of such language. Some poster's could deem me to be a hypocrite following this insertion, I can appreciate that a deletion of comments may be necessary on occasion, but to insert such words, I view as an attack on my reputation. I refrain from using this type of language because there's no telling who may be reading my post's, I certainly wouldn't like my grandchildren to read that particular post bearing my name.
Paul Hewitt
53 Posted 31/10/2019 at 17:30:06
Kieran #49. If they thought the piece was shite, then don't post it for comments. Simple.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
54 Posted 31/10/2019 at 17:39:42
John (53), that would be Michael who always argues that if you're going to swear then you should just use the full word whereas I would prefer to leave things as the poster intended. In that vein, I have restored the asterisks to your comment.

Regarding the notion of "free speech", this is an open forum in that we welcome all viewpoints but what I do object to is members wilfully misleading of provoking of readers for one's own amusement as Paul openly admitted to doing. (BTW, I didn't say his post was "shit" - that was MK - but I did have to read it in the context of his admission to being mischievous.) It's very different to penning thought-provoking or honestly-held views that challenge or stimulate debate or transparently playing devil's advocate.

As Mike G says above, we are quite within our rights to suppress such content for the good of the site and the community.

James Marshall
55 Posted 31/10/2019 at 17:55:04
This thread should be right up my street given my recent misery-based-warblings on TW, but even I can't bring myself to muster up a great deal of enthusiasm to agree or disagree.

Yeah, we're shit, but we've been shit for years. This isn't news. In fact, we're so shit that most RS fans I know don't even bother trying to wind me up anymore about just how shit we are. In a way, perhaps being total shit is a positive – at least in that sense.

God help us. And that from an atheist.

Julian Exshaw
56 Posted 31/10/2019 at 18:07:11
I don't know how long I've been posting on ToffeeWeb but it must be more than 5 years. For the first time last weekend, I really felt like not coming back, not that that would probably be noticed. ;)

The abuse leveled at certain Evertonians merely for having an opinion are a disgrace – so much so that the so-called poison around Everton would appear to start on this very forum.

Marco Silva et al may not be everyone's cup of tea but slagging them off and calling them every name under the sun isn't on. At the end of the day, the man is doing his best, as are the players. Whether that best is good enough is another debate. As for wanting Everton to lose for the sole purpose of having the manager sacked,well, frankly I despair.

I love the input of our erudite and most knowledgeable Evertonians from America and elsewhere and their comments are as valid as anyone's.

In short, this forum is for us all, whatever our opinions are. We are in enough trouble without this in-fighting. It's not worthy of this great club.

Steve Ferns
57 Posted 31/10/2019 at 18:27:26
Please tough it out, Julian. Your input would be missed. ToffeeWeb is a broad church and so it takes all sorts and that's one of the best things about it. People are very frustrated and upset, and they want to see things change for the better.

We're all Blues, and most of us on here are fanatics. Sometimes, we just forget that we are on the same side or that we all have feelings.

John McFarlane Snr
58 Posted 31/10/2019 at 19:15:09
Hi again Lyndon [55] thank you for taking the time to rectify my post [293] on the "Holgate Rescues A Turgid Cup Affair." thread. I didn't begin what I regarded as an offensive comment with a capital letter, but I'll make sure that from now on there will be no cause for doubt. I'll make my point using a different approach.

I'm no prude but I believe that, in today's Hi-Tech world, our comments can be read by anyone from 9 to 90, male or female, worldwide. As I said previously, I wouldn't want any member of my family to be exposed to some of the comments on what otherwise is an excellent site. Once again thank you for your co-operation.

Bill Gienapp
59 Posted 31/10/2019 at 19:21:34
Thanks Michael/Lyndon. My main point – and I certainly wasn't calling either of you out – was that Paul's post was really just a comment, no different than the 300+ currently on the post-match thread. But he submitted it as an article – clearly in bad faith – just so he'd have a larger platform to rile people up. And here I am posting on it, so clearly I fell into the trap, but it's still annoying.
Tony Marsh
60 Posted 31/10/2019 at 19:31:46
I am becoming concerned about Andy Crooks. Everytime I post, he comes on instantly with something snidey and childish to say. I think he must fancy me as he keeps using the word 'Love'??

Can I just say to Andy, and anyone else out there, I don't love any football player or manager; I don't love Everton FC. I love my kids and my family. I love my wife... but sports figures? No, thank you. I support Everton; I follow them; I don't love any of it.

So when my boyfriend, Andy Crooks, comes out with this "He Loves Fat Sam" bullshit, it really is embarrassing to read. Big girls blouse stuff, to be honest. Not something a grown man should be saying on a football forum.

As for the team and the club, you are right: I don't say anything positive as there is nothing positive to say. About 18 months ago on here, I voiced my concerns about the stadium move and Michael said I was talking nonsense. Since then, absolutely nothing has happened with regards to Everton moving to the Dock Road, apart from some imaginary stadium drawing. Still no plans or finance in place. Not very positive, is it?

Spurs announced a year before Everton did that they were leaving White Hart Lane. This says it all for me. Moshiri said, in July 2016, we were off. We're still here... doing nothing we can visibly see.

As for the football side of it, I welcome Blues fans with open arms from anywhere in the world. I have met Paul McComb from Alaska, got him derby tickets, picked him up from the hotel, etc. Great guy. The trouble is, though, unless you have lived and breathed this shit for 50 years through school days, through work life and beyond... unless you have watched your mates and families suffer, season after season, from being a child as Liverpool win everything everywhere they go, then you just can't truly get it. It's been a painful existence, being an Evertonian, and it's getting worse.

This current bunch of clowns, and yes the men and woman running the club, knock me sick. If anyone thinks this current situation is acceptable, then I feel sorry for you. Goodison Park is an embarrassing eyesore. Go past Goodison Park in the daytime through the week when no game is on and it's a ghost town. Go past Anfield a few minutes later and it's rammed with people mingling about... it could almost be a match day.

We are being left behind even further than I thought possible. The heart and soul of the club is being ripped out and destroyed. Everton Football Club has no identity anymore. We are dying slowly. If any of you think it's out of order that myself and others get angry, then you definitely don't get it.

It's not 'love'... It never was. Supporting Everton was passed down to me by my father and by me to my sons. It's in the blood, part of your upbringing and local culture. Trouble is, if fans on here and elsewhere keep accepting the lies and the let-downs, the false dawns and lack of ambition, there won't be anything left to pass down. Liverpool FC will be taking the next generations. It's already started.

Richard Farrington
61 Posted 01/11/2019 at 13:32:52
I rarely post on here but Tony (60) has nailed it. Spot on for me.
Kieran Kinsella
62 Posted 01/11/2019 at 13:52:43
Tony,

No one doubts your passion, whether you want to call it heart, passion, homoerotic love, or anything else. But the point being made is that you keep saying fans "accept" failure. But what is it tangibly that you expect fans to do to show they don't accept it?

I don't think anyone on here accepts a future for Everton as acceptable if it means propping up the table. But what are our options here? Boycott games? Don't buy season tickets? Surely that would weaken our financial standing? Should everyone just relentlessly boo and criticize even positive results as they paper over the cracks? What player would respond well to that kind of treatment?

I just feel that we are at the mercy of forces we can't control. We complain, we talk about ideas of how the team could change... but ultimately we don't even have a plastic butter knife to bring to the gunfight. The owners control this situation. But if you have some secret way for we the fans to alter the on-field and off-field performance, then I am all ears.

Steve Ferns
63 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:00:55
Tony, that's a very good post that brings the question, what is love and can you love a sports team? Do I love Everton? I think only my psychiatrist can answer that one.

As for the current situation being acceptable, it is for me, for the moment. They've made promises and I believe them to be genuine. I believe Dan Meis to be genuine. I believe Brexit to be a massive factor. So many industries around the country are deeply affected, even one you couldn't possibly fathom, but none more so than the world of finance and the fluctuating pound and economic uncertainty is pausing many big projects around the country.

I'm a very patient man. Being an Everton fan has taught me that. I've waited 24 years for another trophy (since I was a child). I can wait a bit longer if things are happening to make this wait come to an end. I believe they are.

As for not much happening at Goodison, yeah, I often drive past, I tend to pop into the club shop and buy a hat, gloves, scrafy, jumper, water bottle, any old crap. But unless you are going to do that, there's no real reason to go to the ground.

I'm a member of the People's Club. Click the link and you'll see Everton have given it a smart new refurb which is apparently a glimpse inside the facilities of the new stadium. The People's Club is only open on home match days. Newcastle have Shearer's bar, now rebranded as Nine. I don't know why Everton don't follow Newcastle's lead and open the People's Club on weekends, and away match days. I don't know about other blues local to Liverpool, but I've rather pop over to Goodison and watch a big match with a pint (expensive as it is) here than elsewhere. I did tell the club this, and they said they'd take it under advisement, which means nothing will come of it, but I feel Everton don't do enough.

Rob Hooton
64 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:03:27
Derek T, 27,

Very well put. I want a trophy daddy and I want one now!

We all love Everton and would love the club to be successful again, the rollercoaster hasn't been so fun for a while now though but we all look forward to our next ‘yippee' moment.

Some are "glass half-full" and some "half-empty" and we all have our unique perspectives. Sometimes I find myself dragged down and other times lifted by the words of my fellow blues on here. We are all entitled to our opinions and feelings, I'm sure some folk are miserable no matter what but I still respect their opinions!

Fingers crossed the other lot finally get their comeuppance for selling their souls to the devil and a ray of royal blue sunshine appears; please!

Eddie Dunn
65 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:28:59
Kieran, never mind hitting the club's finances, the tickets are only funding the sticky tape and plastic flags anyway. If fans are fed-up with the performance of the players, or the coaches, or the Boardroom, the only weapon they have is either to make their feelings known on the terraces (whistles, boos, banners) or sponsor an aeroplane, or just don't go to the match.

Empty seats viewed on TV are the clearest hint to the club that the fans ain't happy. So, if the footy is crap or you don't like the product, don't buy it.

Brian Williams
66 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:39:05
There's a difference between anger and over dramatic histrionics.

We're a mid-table club, have been for far too long. We were last very successful over 30 years ago but the fact that we're not now doesn't IMHO mean the hearts been ripped out the club and we have no identity. What the fuck does that even mean?

Other supporters put up with mid-table mediocrity and worse, and have done for longer than us. I wonder if they are as angry as some of us are?

If you're that angry, do something about it!

Jim Wilson
67 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:39:30
Tony Marsh,

Absolutely brilliant. mate,

If only the club officials were like you!

Mike Gaynes
68 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:43:49
Isn't it interesting how a really bad article turned into a really good discussion?

That's TW.

Julian #56, your departure would most definitely have been noticed. There's nothing wrong with taking a bit of a break (I do it sometimes), but don't make it permanent.

Dave Ganley
69 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:47:12
Good post Tony #60. Also interesting post Steve #63.

I agree, I would go for a pint at Goodison on away day fixtures if they could show the game. I'm quite sure lots of local Blues would do the same. It seems a wasted opportunity for the club not to at least see what demand there would be.

Kieran #62, you only have to look at Liverpool across the park whenever they're unhappy. Demonstrations, marches before the game, walkouts at a certain time, they even boycotted a game at Hull I think a few years ago in protest about prices.

Say what you like about that shower but they would never tolerate the kind of shite we have to put up with. They actually organise and carry out protests while we do nothing. Very sad really. They show that fan power does work.

Kieran Kinsella
70 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:50:57
Dave 69,

Okay, so to that point, instead of ranting, why doesn't Tony Marsh or Paul Burns take the initiative and organize a march? They accuse others of inaction so set the example and take the lead.

Tony Abrahams
71 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:52:07
Great post Tony M, but if you didn't love Everton, I'm not sure the bastards could keep grinding you down, mate.

Your point about the ground (Being empty) makes me wonder because on Tuesday night, the roads all the way to near Goodison we're eerily quiet, so much so that I only expected a low crowd, and I couldn't believe how busy it got when I turned onto Goodison Road.

I watched Liverpool play the next night and commented to my red mate about this and he said his mate was driving his cab near Goodison and said it looks like these fuckers will only have about 20,000 tonight.

Now on to watching Liverpool with my mate (on the telly) and even when they were behind they never believe they are beaten, whilst most Evertonians are the complete opposite. Outside Goodison, I heard men who looked in their 60s saying, "You know we'll get City or Liverpool if we win tonight" and this is what I find so pathetic.

Life is full of contradictions, but surely you only win when you believe? Listen, I don't want to be like those phoney bastards (which is most of them) because they would never get the following that Everton get, despite 25 years without a trophy, but belief is everything, and that is the one thing I wouldn't mind learning from across the park.

Stephen Davies
72 Posted 01/11/2019 at 14:53:11
My tuppence worth: We won't move forward until we get players who are fighters and leaders and hate losing and have the drive to compete every game. You can buy the most skillful players in the world but without that in-built natural drive nothing much will change.

Character is as important as skill... a team with character and fight with a decent amount of skill will give any team a good game. It's what we've consistently lacked for a long long time.

It's one of the very good things that Moyes was particularly good at and should be an integral part of our recruitment policy.

Steve Ferns
73 Posted 01/11/2019 at 15:00:10
Tony, on your point: how many of us believe that "Here Come Everton" line. If you are not familiar with it, there's an example on Sunday: Tottenham have not won away since January … Here come Everton. There's also something similar for Southampton.

It seems we frequently turn up and generously roll over to allow others to end whatever disastrous run they are on by letting them beat us. If this was really true then wouldn't Fulham have actually won a league game at Goodison?

Anyway, so many rational guys believe we'll lose to Spurs because they are a good team and they are "due one". Not many are looking at it as two similar teams separated by just two points, and the fact that we have been very good at home over a long period of time (as opposed to looking at just the last five home games) and there's as many reasons to favour a home win as an away one.

I believe we are "due one" and that we will win, and that we will turn the corner and that this starts on Sunday.

David Thomas
74 Posted 01/11/2019 at 15:00:50
Tony 60. Couldn't agree more.

That is what myself and the lads I go the match with home and away year after year think as well.

I just don't see any progression at the club; we just seem to be letting our former peers move further and further over the horizon each year.

John Keating
75 Posted 01/11/2019 at 15:03:15
Steve 63 and Dave 69,

I agree with you both. I reckon it's a good idea, locals having a few and watching the away match at Goodison. would have thought it'd make them a few bob!

Dave Ganley
76 Posted 01/11/2019 at 15:21:01
Fair point, Kieran #70. We, Everton, have traditionally been awful at any kind of proper demonstrations. We show our displeasure during and after a game but we have been very poor at really organising anything in the past.

I remember the supposed demonstration against Kenwright before a game few years ago. We did that – then the fucker got applauded when he took his seat at the game. The mind boggles...

Tony Abrahams
77 Posted 01/11/2019 at 15:29:23
If that question was meant for me Steve, I forgot to add that I was talking to a fella in his late 60s outside Goodison the other night who said that Spurs will be rubbing their hands about coming to Everton, for the reason you have just mentioned!

I know belief stems from having something to believe in, and I believe we have got enough good players to give anyone a game, but loads believe it's never going to happen whilst Silva is the manager. Whilst I can live with the contradictions, I also believe you have got to have everyone pulling the same way if you are ever going to achieve anything in football, and when was the last time this was truly ever the case at Everton?

Dave Abrahams
78 Posted 01/11/2019 at 17:14:02
Julian (56), Julian don't leave ToffeeWeb mate, it's the nearest you'll ever get to being in show business !!!
Andy Crooks
79 Posted 01/11/2019 at 20:55:33
Tony Marsh @ 60, that is a fair post. Your second paragraph is absolutely spot on. I like to think that my mind is open enough to admit that. Could I perhaps say you had a degree of admiration for Big Sam?

Anyway, now that I am your boyfriend I will never be snidey again!!! It's never black and white, Tony and frankly, back in the days of the MOB I was, yes, really, angrier than you.

AIso, while I have often disagreed with you and will again, I have never questioned your credentials as a passionate Evertonian. And, there is some positive stuff... when I think if it, I'll let you all know.

Neil Jones
80 Posted 02/11/2019 at 09:48:00
Steve 73, ,lets hope that if we win and I do think we will, ,it will be the truning point of our season , COYB
John Keating
81 Posted 02/11/2019 at 19:13:55
Steve @73,

I'm positive you said that to me before the Brighton game.

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