I want to discuss a rather thorny subject. I was going to do it last week, but emotions were a little raw and I thought it best to let things calm down a little. Not because I don't enjoy the virtual fisticuffs and banter, but because I am genuinely interested in cold-light-of-day opinion.
The question I want to ask is: Is it ever okay for an Evertonian to want Everton to lose?
During the Southampton game, I logged on to the Live Forum and read a post from a guy saying he wanted us to lose. He wasn't just sounding off. He meant it and supported his comment, by saying he believed it would hasten the departure of the current manager.
Some posters reacted angrily… but what really caught my attention was a couple of other posters actually agreed. The debate inevitably spilled over to the main forum and again we had a few posters voicing their support.
This is not a new argument to ToffeeWeb. I remember as far back as the semi-final against Manchester Utd when some posters were willing us to lose because an appearance in the FA Cup Final would almost certainly result in a stay of execution for Roberto Martinez. It's a debate that has surfaced briefly ever since.
I personally haven't rated any of our previous four managers. I really despised the fact that our great club was being managed by people who went against everything I hold sacred. Allardyce and Koeman drove me to distraction. I badly wanted them gone... but I could never bring myself to want us to lose. Was I wrong? Did I lack the courage of my convictions? Is there something in my DNA that makes me crave a win – no matter the cost?
Don't get me wrong: I understand the desire some express to see us lose. It's a simple, "short-term pain for long-term gain" philosophy. It's not something I can subscribe to, but I know only too well the inner conflict of wishing failure on a manager and chairman, whilst praying for success of the team they preside over.
I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming majority of Evertonians want our team to win every game – no matter what. We are quite simply programmed that way. We are prepared to put aside our dislike for the manager, coach or chairman and we pray for victory… but does that make us right?
Can defeat ever be for the "greater good"? Is wishing for defeat the cardinal sin? Is it a step too far? Is this where we draw the line? And, if there is a line to be drawn, who among us is qualified, authorised to decide where and when it should be drawn?
Reader Comments (129)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 19/11/2019 at 04:23:39
I can never quite recall that Danny Blanchflower bit about it being more than just winning but how you win but I do think it should be the driving force in the Boardroom.
2 Posted 19/11/2019 at 06:00:25
3 Posted 19/11/2019 at 06:56:09
Its desertion or dereliction of duty at least.
4 Posted 19/11/2019 at 07:31:26
That idea went out the window when Barkley scores a cracker and we all went ballistic. So, when it boils down to it, EFC comes first.
I can see, however, that some fans would sacrifice three points leaving us 8th instead of 7th if it stopped the shite and their insufferable fans from celebrating a title win.
5 Posted 19/11/2019 at 07:35:17
I melted some of the keys on my keyboard with my comments towards the "guy" who wanted us to lose -- and actually posted "BOLLOCKS" when we won -- so my position on this particular issue is firmly established. No matter the circumstances, I will never say Come On You Lose.
I do not, however, believe that a line can be drawn or enforced -- freedom of speech gives anyone the basic right to present themselves as a complete ass on this board. It's not morally wrong or treasonous, IMO, it's just monumentally stupid. And those who disagree are absolutely entitled to point that out.
The "raw"-ness during the Southampton forum was a result not of the guy rooting for us to lose, but of his directing sexual obscenities and general vituperation towards the remainder of the congregation who were cheering for victory. So this was something of a special circumstance.
6 Posted 19/11/2019 at 08:10:24
It would have been small consolation for me even if it had cost SIlva his job because going into December with what is left of this squad is going to be a huge challenge for any manager.
I will take any points we can scrounge over the next 7 or 8 games regardless of who is at the helm.
7 Posted 19/11/2019 at 08:19:12
8 Posted 19/11/2019 at 08:27:08
Weve won the league by a street and playing a “meh, I don't dislike them” team eg Bournemouth, who need the win to pip the shite in the relegation fight.
And even then Id be disappointed.
I hate it when we lose - screws my weekend.
9 Posted 19/11/2019 at 08:30:18
Don't care what that makes me or what you might think of me that's how I feel.
10 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:03:35
11 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:12:58
In the context of the member who wanted Everton to lose, "you can lose a battle but win the war." Yes, losing hurts, but if it serves a purpose, why not? In the context of this poor season, where barring an almighty miracle, Everton are not going to win the league. What difference would it have made?
12 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:27:34
No it bloody well isn't OK.
No, not ever.
We have a motto and if you don't like it then you aren't really an Evertonian.
It's not optional or momentary.
"Nil Satis Nisi Optimum".
"Nothing But The Best Is Enough".
There is no opt out clause in that, no special case, no circumstantial exception.
It IS what defines Everton.
By adhering to our motto we continue on our true path.
We are still recognisable as the same club which began as St. Domingo's.
Our Victorian forebears would most surely feel at home amongst the faithful at God's Acre.
That must always remain, whether that be at Stanley Park, Anfield, Mere Green, Goodison or Bramley Moore Dock.
There are other clubs for whom turning a blind eye is not only possible but common practice.
They can be offended by everything and ashamed of nothing
That is not Everton.
We can not defined by what we are not.
We are Everton.
" those who understand ".
13 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:36:11
Ive got to object to Bills (2) comment. I dont think its anyones right to judge who is or isnt a proper Evertonian. I personally cant understand those that dont hate the RS with every fibre of their being. That is part of me being an Everton fan. There are bigger Blues than me who disagree. Thats ok.
14 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:43:28
15 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:57:21
I obviously always want Everton to do well. And every goal against us hurts, every loss lingers. But there have been times (towards the end of Martinez' era) where PART OF ME wanted us to lose in order to force the change that I was convinced was needed for our improvement in the short and long term.
I may have harbored such thoughts during the week. Though I don't think i've ever felt them during an actual match and I would certainly never actually voice them on an Everton Forum! For me that would be somewhere between very naive and unforgivable. But I can empathise with where those thoughts might orginate.
16 Posted 19/11/2019 at 09:58:34
As Phil #11 says, sometimes we see the battle as just part of a wider war, and there can be scenarios where some might want us to lose, for the greater good - the greater good - even if only expressed after a defeat.
Mike Gaynes #5, as so often, has some words of wisdom and restraint. Also #4, #7, #10, #11.
"Is this where we draw the line?"
No - I think where we draw the line is as per TW Conditions of Use (especially #4 below!):
3. You acknowledge that you share with other contributors an equal right to comment on anything Everton-related, without prejudice, provided you do it respectfully and without abusing other contributors, the website, or its editors.
4. You agree not to denigrate other website users or contributors, no matter how much you may disagree with their freely expressed views and opinions.
5. You accept that you post as an individual and do not represent a/the 'majority' or any other claimed subset of Evertonians.
7. You accept that other contributors are free, as you are, to comment on any issue related to Everton Football Club...
8. You agree not to question or impugn the Evertonian credentials of other contributors or to denigrate their support of the Club. You also expressly agree not to call or imply that other contributors are or should become Liverpool supporters or kopites. You recognise and respect the inherent diversity of the Everton community and avoid categorizng by age, location, match attendance or other inherently divisive criterion.
17 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:12:47
18 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:20:21
As Mike G point out, if the posters point of view is exacerbated by abusing or using offensive language in responding to fellow Blues who disagree, then other fans have the right to give them a very hard time.
It is timely for Brent to remind us of the TW Conditions of Use. The individual in question definitely exceeded these but I dont know what the outcome was in terms of their right to publish.
19 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:28:57
20 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:33:07
21 Posted 19/11/2019 at 10:36:10
A driving force in the boardroom, wish we had one, unfortunately Kenwright has only one gear REVERSE. As from what I hear he is at odds with Brands over the EFC retired players club at the Academy and an overhaul of the operation.
I can't see the reason to pay to attend a match wanting your team to lose surely not attending may bring things to a head if enough wanted change and withheld their gate money.
22 Posted 19/11/2019 at 11:22:52
So, I think everyone understands that feeling of "short term loss, long-term gain", "every cloud, silver lining", etc. Wishing for it out loud is considered bad form at a minimum. Wishing for it while the game is actually on is damn odd.
I'd guess many of us know who Darren and Mike are referring to from last week. While I'm in the "Silva's not the answer" camp, it WAS strange reading an Evertonian cheering for a defeat during the game. I wouldn't know how to do that.
23 Posted 19/11/2019 at 11:37:30
I wasn't heartbroken when City went on to win, given the circumstances, however
24 Posted 19/11/2019 at 12:27:56
When MU won the FA cup under Van Gaal they promptly sacked him because of the league position. I hope that we are the type of team with the balls to sack any manager for the good of the future development.
Silva is learning on the job. Thats the model we went for. If he improves us and it sticks this time then I would stick with him. However if any manager is available to take us higher then l have no qualms about replacing him. As Ive said before, what could save his tofu is the fact he seems close with a lot of the players. Other than that he is tactically naive. And the deer in headlights look on he touchline when things arent going well isnt a good look for anyone.
Im always willing to give him another game... until the board says otherwise.
25 Posted 19/11/2019 at 12:42:00
I would have hoped Allardyce's Everton win every game. Ergo, we'd win the league and every other trophy. We'd be building a statue of him before long! I cannot envisage ever wanting the club to lose just so a manager can be sacked.
You also have to be careful what you wish for. How do you know the next guy will be better or more successful? How long do you give the next guy? 18 months? and then another guy gets less, and we keep turning over managers until we get a couple of Mike Walkers in a row, who have us adrift at the bottom of the table, ie really in the shit.
You always back the team, no matter what. If Everton piss you off then stop going and turn them off and do something that you enjoy.
James, there's a difference from looking for a silver lining in a defeat, to wanting your team to lose.
26 Posted 19/11/2019 at 12:54:49
Like others I wasn't too disappointed after we lost to Man City a few seasons ago but I wanted Everton to win before the match kicked off and was out of my seat when Barclay scored.
Phil #11, "Everton are not going to win the league. What difference would it Err a prolonged relegation battle? You never know the importance of 3 points at any time in the season unless it's the last game of the campaign and it's a dead rubber.
Err a prolonged relegation battle? You never know the importance of 3 points at any time in the season unless it's the last game of the campaign and it's a dead rubber.
27 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:04:21
28 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:18:45
I want us to win every game, but the long-term health and success of the club is paramount. Our history - every teams history - features defeats or draws that changed the direction of the club for the better. When a fan is unhappy with the direction the club is going in, and change seems slow to arrive, then I can understand that said fan might desire the catalyst defeat that will force the change they crave. It all depends on how you believe the corner can be best turned - as the thing I believe every fan has in common is the desire for this club to be successful.
29 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:35:26
It might be useful to put yourself in the shoes of an Evertonian who wants us to lose, to imagine the situation they might be in. For example, if they lived amongst a load of arrogant and irritating reds, ones who are bad losers and ungracious winners, and Everton losing stopped them winning the title (and we were safely nestled in the PL table) then you can understand that Evertonian wanting us to lose.
Wanting us to lose might be seen as a last resort to remedy a bad situation, the above being a particular example.
30 Posted 19/11/2019 at 13:52:52
Thanks Stan, sums up my situation exactly.
31 Posted 19/11/2019 at 14:22:43
32 Posted 19/11/2019 at 15:36:54
Every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
33 Posted 19/11/2019 at 15:58:52
Not for a manager to be sacked but if our season was more or less over and we needed an assist to prevent our neighbours from achieving anything then yes.
And I certainly don't appreciate anyone telling me I'm not a "proper" Evertonian for saying that.
And before anyone else says we shouldn't give a shit about our neighbours then you try living amongst them all your life and listening to the non stop shite
34 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:06:36
35 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:07:49
36 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:10:45
37 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:15:51
You live here and haven't see any "glory" days as such. I have and want our younger supporters to feel that euphoria.
Unfortunately compared to that lot we've achieved nothing so as I mentioned there would be a specific case to want or accept a loss.
If you read Alexanders post at 12 then there is no grey area and anyone with such thoughts is persona non grata.
38 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:32:02
Genuine question. You'd rather we won a game that meant nothing to us besides three points that made no difference to our league placing and handed them lot the title than lose that ONE game and stop them winning the title?
39 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:49:13
40 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:49:30
This doesn't have anything to do with freedom of speech, or censoring others' right to their opinions. No one is suggesting they don't have that right.
The question was 'is it okay for an Evertonian to want us to lose?'
Not a chance in the world, no, it's not okay. I respect a person's right to want us to lose. They should respect my right to think they're codswallop.
(Did I use that word correctly?) :-D
41 Posted 19/11/2019 at 16:56:50
Id take losing another ten matches right now as long as we gained enough places to stay in the league, and as long as we finally also won a bloody cup.
I live in the City, so of course I wanted City to beat us when Barkley scored that great goal, but Im a bit of a schizophrenic when it comes to football, because Id sooner come second rather Liverpool won to help us win the league, and thats just the way it is to me.
42 Posted 19/11/2019 at 17:06:08
I used to cheer when Liverpool lost. My dad told me that Liverpool was my uncles and my cousins and why would I want to see them lose when it would make loved ones upset?
I cant match my father for his support of the enemy, but no I would never want us to drop a point to stop them winning.
43 Posted 19/11/2019 at 17:08:31
44 Posted 19/11/2019 at 17:11:13
45 Posted 19/11/2019 at 17:49:19
Haha. No shit, Sherlock. Maybe read it in context next time.
46 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:19:18
The ONE, who has never a good word to say about our club and has stated that the new stadium won't happen.
We all have our own perspective of what being a supporter means. The day I want us to lose to get the coach sacked is the day I will be done with the club. Each to their own. Win lose or draw being an Evertonian has, is and will always give me pleasure.
I get angry about stuff but I will never burst a blood vessel, piously talk about how loving family is more important( who doesn't think this, by the way) and then foam at the mouth again. If wanting us to lose is what makes you happy, fair enough.
47 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:48:43
I think its really rather telling that so many have added the caveat "if we cant go down and it ruins RS chances" . . Forget Liverpool. Being prepared to take an inconsequential loss if it derailed their season isn't unique to Everton. There will not be many fans who would shed a tear over a meaningless defeat, if it meant failure for their rivals.. "Admitting" you could accept that is hardly an admission at all.
Lets just ditched this obsession with RS. This not about them.
I could have given more examples, but I specifically singled out two occasions which had sweet FA to do with them. I wanted to focus attention on Everton and Evertonians.
I am speaking about Evertonia as a whole, but I have focused on two incidents that were debated right here on TW. One when posters openly expressed a desire to see us to lose a rare and (to many) crucial semi final so Martinez would be fired and the other when people were happy to forego a desperately needed three points in order to speed up the departure of Silva. These were two really crucial matches and they had absolutely nothing to do with RS.
Evertonians were openly wishing for Everton to lose massive matches.
I don't buy this "everyone is entitled to an opinion" response. Its a total kop out.
Those people saying they want us to loses are not voicing an opinion. They are expressing a wish.. They may well believe they are acting in the long term interest of the club, but they are wishing ill will on their own team in games big enough to have far reaching consequences.
What happens if those wishing ill on the team get their way and we lose.. but then Silva doesnt still doesnt get sacked ? will they wish we lose the next game in the hope that he does ? . . and the game after that ?
When you apply this sort of twisted logic, you cant just apply it to one game, Once you go down that route there is no turning back. We could lose 10-15 points - and will probably have to before he eventually gets sacked
Great starting position for the next guy
48 Posted 19/11/2019 at 19:49:49
Where some might agree is after supporting the club through a game and we lose, are we that bothered about it when the club is not in good shape?!
For me it doesnt hurt when we lose any way as much as it did.
Apathy, something that is rife and has been around the club for sometime, its definitely gotten hold of me.
As for someone to wish us to lose. Well it takes all sorts, and power to them. I have no issues.
An as Andy Crooks says, I cant be doing with the high handed, sanctimonious better blue stuff that surfaces in posts.
Theres a grain of truth in every post, even ones you oppose however vehemently.
49 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:11:20
50 Posted 19/11/2019 at 20:52:31
Every point in the premier league is absolutely vital, be it obtained in the first game of the season, mid way through the season, or the last game of the season.
As I mentioned a few weeks back, you only have to look at Bolton wanderers in the 1997 / 98 season. We were the first visitors to their new stadium. (They had played their first three or four games of the season away). During that game, Bolton, rightly or wrongly had a goal disallowed, which, had it stood, we might well have lost the game. The game ended 0-0, and as some of us know, that point proved absolutely vital come the end of the season, as we survived by the skin of our teeth, only avoiding relegation on goal difference, while Bolton went down. So that point gained at Bolton in September 1997 probably kept us up.
So I advise people, don't start wishing a defeat on the team, even this early in the season, just in the hope Silva gets the boot, because you just don't know how vital those lost points may prove come the end of the season.
51 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:04:04
I gave an honest answer, and explained the circumstances where I wouldn't mind a loss, as it wasn't clear to me you were referring only to the examples you gave as you included the word "ever" in the question.
Don't know why the rs scenario is telling!
Did I want us to lose to Soton? Did I fuck as we desperately need the points.
52 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:09:42
Imagine if Moshiri is a big a fan of silva as I am; How many games would you need to wish for us to lose to get me to agree to sack him, well more than the next 5. So if moshiri is the same mind as me, would you wish we lost the next 5? Do you want us really in the shit in order to force his hand?
Maybe moshiri might sack him if we lost at home to Norwich, we dont know. I would have thought clubs would be sensible and consider timing. However Daniel Levy is meant to be sensible and a great chairman and hes just performed some madness 9 days into the international break. So who knows?
53 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:10:11
You didn't ask the question, "Is it ever OK for an Evertonian to want Everton to lose except in situations where we're safe and it prevents the RS winning the title".
If you ask a question, you should reasonably expect answers that are consistent with the conditions stated within the question.
54 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:11:21
I was intrigued by the number of people who focused on the effect it would have on RS. That wasnt theirs or your fault. My question wasnt clear.
I should have made it clearer that I wanted to discuss only Everton and Evertonians.
I think it is telling that so many bring RS into the equation when addressing a post which doesnt even mention them.
We are. I think. all guilty of affording them a little too much of our time
55 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:21:09
I know Everton have drove us all mad down the years, but Winnick, Broad-oak or Stoddart house, is my first thought, or maybe a game of cards with Mancini!
I used Liverpool, Darren, but only to express how I feel when they say Everton wont try because they dont want them to win the league, and I ask them “so its alright for us to win sometimes”
Some people have already expressed that they are prepared to see Everton lose if it got rid of the manager apparently, and if they feel that strongly, then rightly or wrongly it is most definitely down there own choice.
56 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:36:15
I don't rate Silva and absolutely did not want Martinez anywhere near the place. Unlike you I think Koeman got a raw deal and could have been a good manager for us,The other person doesnt even rate a mention.
However I always want us to win whatever the circumstances and I would love Silva to be very successful because that would mean we are winning things.I honestly cant see it and I think this is the issue facing many Evertonians.
When you get right down in the gutter with the other lot doing so well it becomes downright depressing and the only solution is for the manager to go I do believe that some lads offset their depression by wanting the man gone sharpish and if losing a game is part of the deal bring it on.
As I said I beleive we should always want our team to win but I do understand that some Blues convince themselves that a loss is acceptable for the greater good and future wellbeing.
57 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:41:24
58 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:44:39
59 Posted 19/11/2019 at 21:46:36
60 Posted 20/11/2019 at 05:18:18
I'm not saying being honest was a cop out, if anything I am saying the opposite.
I think people dressing up their desire to see us lose are being slightly disingenuous when they try to dress up their ill will as "opinion"
"I think we'll lose" - opinion
"I want us to lose" - expression of wish.
Have I got that wrong ?
You'll be all too aware of how fraught Goodison becomes when we are not doing well and we have just conceded an equaliser. That heart stopping tension when everyone is looking at the clock preying for us to go back in front, but at the same time dreading we may concede again.. Can you imagine somebody shouting "I hope we lose and I don't give a shit about the rest of you and your stress" ? I suspect anyone doing so would be invited to leave by the scruff of his neck and the arse of his kecks.
I was on the live forum for the Southampton game. The tension was palpable. When Southampton equalised, The anger, The frustration the fear of another fucked up weekend/week all came spilling out.. Why would anybody think it would be a good idea to poor petrol over the flames at that moment ?
I also remember when we were preparing for the cup semi final. The mood was very different "Is this our time ?". The excitement. Fans taking their kids to Wembley for the first time.. Why would anybody think it was a good idea to piss on their all to rare parade ?
Having read the thoughts of others I think I can accept there are times when fans can genuinely believe a defeat will be for the long term good. I also accept they may be well be only saying what others are thinking.
Evertons results shape the days, weeks, months of many a blue. if things are going well we are happy, if they are going badly our mood will often be dragged down. Victory means everything. Those harboring thoughts of wanting us to lose are well within their rights to do so, but I think those thoughts are probably best kept to themselves - That's Just my opinion.
Appreciate the responses
61 Posted 20/11/2019 at 07:53:05
To attempt at being winners you must attempt at a winner mentality.
Ive been many a time when watching or listening to Everton over the years, in a real depressing feeling of malaise and almost hatred for them because I am so desperate for us to win, I hate them for losing.
At the end of the day no matter who the manager is, if the team is winning then the manager is pretty insignificant because the fans are too busy enjoying the moment.
A prime example was Roberto Martinez first season, just before Christmas 2013 when we had won at Old Trafford breaking the hoodoo and gone and played Arsenal at their own game at the Emirates, Roberto was the man, the fans totally loved him, best thing since sliced bread.
A year later everyone wanted him out because we were atrocious and sadly it never turned back in his favour.
We need a scapegoat when the team is losing or not winning at least, most of the time the manager cops the flack.
But I hate hearing fans say they want us to lose just to get shut of the boss, thats an attitude Ill never ever buy into.
62 Posted 20/11/2019 at 08:00:07
63 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:46:45
You could argue, and I would, that much of social media is pointless apart from time-filling. But maybe that pointlessness is also irrelevant, in that we choose either to take part or not take part in discussions.
At the end of the day, the only thing really relevant to ToffeeWebbers is how well Everton play on the pitch. If and when we play well consistently, much of this type of discussion just won't happen.
64 Posted 20/11/2019 at 09:48:57
To wish for further points loss on the baseless assumption that absolutely anybody else will turn things around is immature. There are plenty of examples where the ‘rescue party has failed miserably so why not wish for the current situation to improve instead.
65 Posted 20/11/2019 at 10:44:00
66 Posted 20/11/2019 at 12:58:28
What is the point if you can't get one over your rivals or they just keep getting further away from you?
Plus they deserve nothing but pain.
To want us to lose so you can see a manager sacked is beyond a disgrace. It's beyond spoilt and makes no sense at all.
I have never moaned about the odd fan making these wishes public. To be honest, I think there is far more important issues for us to worry about.
67 Posted 20/11/2019 at 13:06:33
And for those of you who recall poster 62's posting history, you will appreciate all the more how truly incredulous such claims were.
68 Posted 20/11/2019 at 13:26:00
Sad but true I agree. I'd want us to lose if it prevented Liverpool from winning something.
Pathetically bitter but I'm being honest. Sad that we can't win anything. :-(
69 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:03:24
I can see what Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and even what Ole are up to. But I cannot see what we are up to.
It's hard to blindly support a badge... I want to support a way of playing. Yes, sometimes we might dig in and sometimes we might win ugly. But what is the core playing belief? If you confuse the modern consumer, they will go AWOL in search of something easier to follow. COYB (with whatever it is you are trying to do).
70 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:03:59
David, we're struggling trying to establish an identity. We're not alone in that, and Liverpool similarly struggled when Klopp arrived, trying to find a consistent pattern based on his 'high pressing game'. When we settle down and gel more consistently, and have a bit more luck with injuries and officiating, we'll get the identity we want.
71 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:04:54
I just can't relate to those who dislike any of our managers enough to end up wishing them gone with every fibre of their being (with someone else then having to start from scratch) rather than them simply hoping that they reverse their/our fortunes and become the next great manager. As I said before, it's not as if the next one will be guaranteed to be better.
72 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:10:59
73 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:12:01
Anyone can think and voice anything they want to. But for me, wanting to lose is acceptable in a few very rare instances.
If a Red Sox loss stops the Yankees from winning the division and entering the playoffs.
If a Bruins loss stops the Canadiens from going to the playoffs, or any New York team for that matter.
If a Celtics loss stops any New York team from going to the playoffs.
If a Packer loss stops the Bears from going to the playoffs.
If an Everton loss stops Liverpool from winning the league.
Just to tick all the boxes, I mention all my teams and sports.
The opinion of, "no true fan would want their team to lose" is, for me, holier than thou. And as I say that, I readily admit to jumping on my soapbox frequently, so yes, I am a hypocrite. Sue me.
If a loss stopped Liverpool from winning the title, it's in the best interests of Evertonians, especially in the city (I have to imagine...), for that to happen. No constant chirping from the others, a satisfaction they didn't win it, and the joy of watching them in distress, is well worth a meaningless loss.
What's not kosher with me, is wanting to lose, putting us in a worse position, to affect a managerial change. If things are that dire, change in a manager will eventually come. And the threat of relegation will always mean we want and need points on the board.
Any witch hunt by those "True Blues" castigating anyone who desires a loss that would prevent Liverpool from glory is simply an attempt by them to say, "I'm a better Blue than you."
I think that's silly in all honesty. I've seen people on these very pages who clearly bleed blue, voicing their opinion that an Everton loss against Man City to prevent Liverpool from winning the league was a good thing. I can't say I disagree. Not sure for me personally my attitude isn't one of wanting to lose, but rather a "it wouldn't be the worst thing" type of attitude. But hey-ho, details.
74 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:21:50
Wanting to lose to Southampton or Norwich City is not on. Silva's time will come because the odds of a repeat against a repetition of stunning results at home to the remaining big boys is pretty low. I do not want to see us fighting relegation because, if you flirt wilfully, you will never know what might happen. How many 'too good to go down' sides have gone down?
I have to have a belief that Brands will have to take soundings because signing players next summer will be seriously compromised. If managing a Champions League runner-up is no security in this game, then Silva has very little to credit to hang on to as the season runs out.
If Brands can not see this, then all the optimism around his position will be lost with supporters and hopefully Moshiri!
I remember years ago, Bob Lord, long-serving chairman at Burnley in the sixties and seventies with an admirable record of success for a team punching way above its weight even then. Lord was totally puzzled as to why so many league chairman were highly successful in their own business fields but, as soon as they became involved with executive side of running football clubs, seemed to lose all their business sense and principles!
Moshiri .... what principles made you successful? Are you tainted by the emotional lack of reason indicated by Bob Lord? Is this the real dividend of keeping Kenwright in the executive decision-making process?
75 Posted 20/11/2019 at 14:42:15
Wood, I did say that at the time I think and meant it, that's why it can never be black or white as I've said. Only an old biddy would hold what I said in their minds or find any inconsistency with anything I've said above other than that I have perhaps learned to understand a little better. Hopefully you'll try it sometime.
Love from #62
76 Posted 20/11/2019 at 15:25:58
You hate them because you want them to win so much Jim, is fair enough, but sometimes Im fuming with Everton losing, and I hate reading youre posts which usually tell us nothing but we are shite, and I often wonder why you dont post so much when we win?
I know the answer now mate, youre happy, and I just wish theyd make you and me a bit happier more often, and thats why I liked Darrens last paragraph@60, and agree with Paul A, @66.
77 Posted 20/11/2019 at 15:35:41
78 Posted 20/11/2019 at 15:49:58
There never was with the Duke.
79 Posted 20/11/2019 at 16:21:22
80 Posted 20/11/2019 at 16:25:58
81 Posted 20/11/2019 at 16:46:03
82 Posted 20/11/2019 at 17:19:06
83 Posted 20/11/2019 at 17:29:54
84 Posted 20/11/2019 at 17:39:46
A couple of points to those who think me feeling this way – or worse, having the gaul to express same opinion – that I am not a true blue or not adhering to the NSNO motto, I beg to differ. I am of the belief that cheering a £250million team scraping a result against a relegated (in November!) Southampton side while we sit in the bottom 3 has little to do with NSNO and is in fact an exercise in consuming the same rancid cancerous bullshit that Everton FC (under Bill Kenwright's tutelage) have served up for near on 30 years now. (I likened it to the herd licking up the piss off Kenwright's nettles and thinking it tastes of honey.)
It was an emotional statement but, if we had lost to that abysmal Southampton side, all talk on TW this week would have been that we need a new manager. (Having watched more or less every game of Silva's tenure, this is very much where I want the club I love to be at.)
It is pragmatism for me, as shown by Andrew #28 and John #48.
Unless they have been living in a cave, it is obvious to all on TW what your opinion is regards Silva. I respect that but mine is the total opposite, so I feel the longer he is in situ, the more damage he is doing. I said at the time, we should get a proper manager in ASAP before it is too late to repair the damage. Either way, he is not good enough for our great club and needs to be launched.
You say "While to counter the spewing of what I can only think of as hate, I just can't relate to those who dislike any of our managers enough to end up wishing them gone with every fibre of their being." — It appears you are more emotional and even a bit hysterical with this subject and comment. I hold no grudge, personal or otherwise, toward Silva – I actually like the guy and did hope he would work out for us, although I was against his appointment. But he is not going to get us Top 4... so he goes.
Expressing this opionon, which I have felt a few times over the last 35 years, where you think "If we lose this, we are hitting rock bottom"; so there is a cleansing effect of "They must do something now" etc etc and is for best long-term.
It also holds up a mirror to TW where some posters are annoyed by it but respect your right to have an opinion; some think you are utterly wrong, but there is another group who spend all their time on here, and who seem to have an opinion on everything (I would love to be this clever), that not only disagree but will meet the point with profanity and tell you you're not even a true "supporter".
We now live in a digital world; however, human nature does not change... and at times with this type (yes, Mike Gaynes, this is you) one feels they have walked into the proverbial hillbillie bar and the few who prop up the bar every day of the week have made it their home, built their consensus, had it validated, and will try to rally the mob around anybody walking in with a different view. It is not a pretty sight, nor a great trait to possess, but comes from a sad need to belong and have a herd to cling to. These are always willing to judge who can or cannot be part of 'their' club, as if that was something to aspire to...
My point is: Evertonians come in all shapes and sizes and there are some I would really enjoy sitting with over a few pints ... and some I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire — like most social groups.
Sorry for getting my reply late but, after the way last week's controversy had gone, I was avoiding posting on TW and won't be frequenting the Live Forum from now on either (I can see now why so many posters avoid it).
I want Silva out and Kenwright out; if losing to Norwich can help us get to where we need to be, I am okay with that. Sorry.
85 Posted 20/11/2019 at 18:16:54
What I don't understand is the logic underlying your belief that losing a game will hasten the departure of the manager (tenuous at best; he needs to lose a helluva lot of matches, based on current understanding of the club leadership and what they find acceptable or can afford).
Even more puzzling is any linkage whatsoever between losing a game, even a series of games, and ousting Bill Kenwright from the club. While that may be an admirable objective, there is simply no evidence for the claimed cause and effect underlying your logic. Much better to threaten the man himself with physical violence (à la Peter Johnson) to force him out of 'your' club. [That was tongue-in-cheek, but sadly at least proven to actually work...]
Maybe it's a case of 'emotional logic' (cf "emotional Intelligence') that is passing me by here... If this is the case, then you should advocate larger and larger catastrophes to befall the club (relegation to the Championship... bankruptcy... receivership... expulsion from the league) — whatever is needed to see first Silva and then Kenwright down the banks.
86 Posted 20/11/2019 at 18:26:56
Our Tony nicknamed Martin Mason, who posted a lot, The Duke, because he wound quite a few on here with his twisting and turning on Toffeeeweb.
By the way Brian if you want to see a good film, get Midnight Run on utube, youll enjoy a good film and understand why Martin was nicknamed The Duke.
87 Posted 20/11/2019 at 18:46:43
Much like that Man City game. I was thinking about all of the pompous, patronising reds I know, some of which I will be sharing Xmas dinner with this year.
I know that had I answered this question in 1987 then the answer would have been "No" under any circumstances. I was in a couple of Charity Shield games when we all sang with the reds, "are you watching Manchester" and "Merseyside, Merseyside".
However those happy days of glory for all of the city have long gone. Now I am bitter and twisted. I can understand the feeling of us beating City in that game and being able to tell our Red chums that we won them the title, but they wouldn't have hated us any less for that.
So therefore to stop them winning it, I would sigh and accept it.
88 Posted 20/11/2019 at 18:47:50
My mate's Dad was dying, his wife and sons at the bedside. The old man summoned enough strength to say, "Lads, I have something to confess. I'm no longer a Blue. I've gone over to the RS."
"Dad, you can't do this," said my mate, horrified, "You've been an Evertonian for 80 years! Why would you do this?"
"Son," said the old man, "it's nearly time to go and it's better one of them bastards dies than one of us!"
89 Posted 20/11/2019 at 18:56:01
What won't help us to get where we deserve to be as a club is trudging along spending £100s of millions to get a win every other week, as is the form for the last 30 years.
Although from a financial perspective the average fan has less sway in any clubs nowadays. (Even Celtic & Rangers, whose biggest attribute, you would assume, is their fanbase; however, their biggest stake is their TV deal with Sky, which is poultry compared to the Premier League.)
But any change in our club must start with the fans first deciding they won't accept this shite anymore (which is most definitely not the case right now). And second would be action.
As an example, let us say ⅓ of the Everton supporters want Kenwright or Silva removed, or just want to vent their disapproval, and decided at the next Sky Super Sunday game to stay away and watch in the Pub. I believe the embarrassment it would generate for the club (who are currently looking for investment for a new stadium) would be more than sufficient to shake up the board and get somd
I have said before, after 35 years of following the club, I realize what I wish for or any opinion I express has little barring on the actual outcome of a game. I am at this point worn thin supporting a club which since the 80s has nose-dived.
The fact that some supporters are shocked by what I said is to me shocking, to be honest. I want us to not except what Silva or Kenwright has delivered and if we lose to Norwich and indeed manage to scrape by this year to avoid the drop, we are now to even other supporters a laughing stock.
How will it feel in May when Liverpool are parading the Premier League trophy? I think people's reaction to what I said will be slightly tapered.
I take your point on the futility of what I post on a web forum having any effect on life in the real world; however, as is, we are facing another season where already the League Cup (a competition our neighbours are indifferent to) is our only chance of respectability is damning.
Deciding you have had enough may not change anything; deciding you will blindly support a team whose Chairman, Manager and some players barely deserve it will absolutely not change anything.
If we were like Chelsea, Man Utd or even Leicester, ffs, where we had at least some recent success to look at with pride, I could understand the reactions... but we have been shite for 35 years!!! It is desperate.
90 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:02:05
91 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:02:20
92 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:08:31
Regardless though, losing against Norwich won't be enough for me to join the "Silva Out" camp. Nor would losing all the next 5 games, we'd have to be pretty up against it for me to do that.
Don't forget, I wasn't even contemplating relegation when big Sam came in to “save us”.
So, if it's going to take 10 consecutive defeats and leave us with a mountain to climb, would you want us to lose that many to force the change?
93 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:26:12
Methinks that post might sit better on the topic under discussion in the Don't Head the Ball thread.
94 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:51:58
I think you're missing my point; that catastrophic failure that you described should not be what it takes. Defeat to Norwich and we should be looking for another manager (if we arent already).
You say "So, if it's going to take 10 consecutive defeats and leave us with a mountain to climb, would you want us to lose that many to force the change?" I want him gone now; my point is, he will only ever deliver mediocrity at best... so, unlike you, I have seen enough, to be honest
The 10 defeats is also plausible I believe, which is the problem. Spurs have just let go a manager who got them to the Champions League Final last season and, barring a ridiculous handball decision against them, may have won it. They have replaced him with a proven winner of note.
Whether it's right or not, I am not sure, but it sends out a message of intent on behalf of Spurs going forward. Meanwhile, we are firmly embedded in the other end of that spectrum despite the fact there is nothing to suggest Silva ever will or could cope with sustaining a good run of results in the Premier League. In fact, his record with other clubs and ourselves suggests otherwise.
The only reason Spurs have bypassed us in every way is the Chairman/men.
95 Posted 20/11/2019 at 19:55:42
96 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:02:41
97 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:15:02
There is no getting away from that and to be honest I don't think you believe what you are saying. I think you have backed Silva that much you are just digging your heels in to try and save face.
What will happen most likely is that Everton will leave it so late in the season to sack Silva that we will have missed the chances we had to try and get a Mourinho or a Pochettino etc and instead we will be chasing the likes of Moyes and Eddie Howe.
For once I would love Everton to show some ambition and actually go for someone who could unite the fan base and get everyone happy again... But no: we will stick with Silva and just drop further into mediocrity.
98 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:16:57
Unfortunately, for some reason, I've now got the Woody Woodpecker song on auto-loop in me 'ead.
Yer bastard, yews!
99 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:22:11
The point was, What if Moshiri won't sack Silva for losing against Norwich and it takes much more than one defeat? How many games is someone like Jer prepared to lose, just to see the manager sacked?
100 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:28:09
Just to reiterate, I am willing to lose the game against Norwich. He should be sacked if we lose that at Goodison, remember everybody agreed last week's turgid "performance" against an abysmal Saints side was a "must-win"?
Whatever it takes to get another manager in, I am willing to accept. If Moshiri wants to give him 10 games, then things are much worse than I thought..
If we lose to Norwich, I will be indifferent.
101 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:30:07
In 5 games, we will be approx 45% through the season and, if we do lose the next 5 games, we would have lost approx 65% of our games in the league.
If you are admitting you wouldn't sack Silva then you are either digging your heels in or accepting Everton as being an also-ran. There is no other option.
102 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:35:24
I'm amazed how I've restrained myself in this post. If I said what I want to say, I'd be banned.
103 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:43:05
So just because we lose doesn't mean that there can't still be progress. And you think all you want about what Moshiri might think, and me too, but it depends on what the man is thinking. We don't know either way. So don't be so sure a defeat would be the end of Silva.
104 Posted 20/11/2019 at 20:51:37
105 Posted 20/11/2019 at 21:03:44
I have neither time nor faith in Silva, but I wouldn't want him sacked unless an improvement is lined up – and I don't mean Moyes!
106 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:08:05
It was reported that Moshiri was so unbelievably impressed with the performance of Olympiakos in beating Arsenal 3-2 at Highbury in a Champions League group game in 2015 (a game in which Walcott scored) that he vowed to himself that this was his dream football manager.
I believe it may be very hard for him to admit that "his spiritual" manager is failing. He may be conflicted in such a way that he is in a state of denial that the manager of a Greek side could outplay an elite team so comprehensively is not producing the goods at EFC. His dream is fading fast and the easiest person we can ever fool is ourselves.
There are none so blind as those who will not see?
107 Posted 21/11/2019 at 01:58:07
Do I always want us to win even if, for example, it means Silva keeping his job or even “them” winning something.
My answer is - I will always take the three points. It is easy for me to say that though, I am not surrounded by reds where I live these days.
108 Posted 21/11/2019 at 04:40:16
I really enjoyed reading Alasdair Jones's article across the pages calling for patience. Alasdair takes a trip down memory lane and talks about The Catt enjoying a few lives as he painstakingly put together his second title-winning side. It occurred to me that it was easier to be patient back then.
Shankly was only at the so-it-begins stage over at Mordor. Since then they had enormous influence on the way Evertonians think. Years of dodgy decisions, outrageous injustice. Logic-defying luck and of course all those times when they were just simply better than us.
It's not so much Liverpool FC that Evertonians hate; it's the ever growing army of Anthem-singing Roger Hunts who "follow" them that so sicken us. Their undiluted gobshitery has probably been the biggest reason for the erosion of patience. We need something to throw back at them. Now!
Stan @70 makes a very good point when he says they too would be happy to sacrifice three points if they thought it would stop us winning a trophy. We all remember the sneaky preparations for the "going down" parties when we faced Wimbledon that day and those of us who had the misfortune of working with them will remember their "only messin" jokes when they indicated they wouldn't mind losing when they faced one of our rivals in the relegation scrap – Gobshites.
I get the logic of wanting us to lose, if the individual believes it is for the greater good. I can't agree with it, but I get it. I have also come to the conclusion that no Evertonian has the right to judge another.
However!!! ... We go to Mordor in a couple of weeks time and If ANYONE who wants to call themselves an Evertonian openly wishes for defeat, they should be cast out, beaten, stripped, tarred, feathered and dragged down County Road by the bollocks, tied to Ben Hur's chariot.
109 Posted 21/11/2019 at 07:37:32
110 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:32:43
I'm dispassionate about the managerial situation because my objective view is there is no guarantee for improvement from the next one, so you may as well hope the current one comes good as that would potentially involve less turmoil and expense.
It's not about being satisfied with the current situation (like everyone else, I desperately want that to improve); it's about acknowledging there are things beyond our control and letting loose on TW is not going to change a thing.
I wouldn't stop anyone protesting at the game, going on a protest march, or organising a petition if they see fit because they may be effective.
Do you see the difference?
111 Posted 21/11/2019 at 09:39:45
112 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:06:13
" We go to Mordor in a couple of weeks time and If ANYONE who wants to call themselves an Evertonian openly wishes for defeat."
My name maybe dirt around here at present but give me at least some credit, I could NEVER bring myself to cheer for Jimi Savilles favourite team !! Even if it meant us WINNING the fcking league :)
Sorry if there was crossed wires I took your post to be one of the many of overly emotive responses I have gotten for saying what I did on Southampton matchday forum ? I missed that your post was in fact a response to Stan please accept my apologies
113 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:20:15
Not saying it was the best performance I've seen but, if that's turgid, I'll happily take it every week!
114 Posted 21/11/2019 at 14:53:41
But for a 2-minute brain fart between Mina, and Schneiderlin, we thoroughly dominated that game. If you want to point to something we were not good at, those 24 shots resulted in only 5 on goal. We just have to do better in the final third.
115 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:12:09
116 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:25:07
It's interesting as well that we have conceded one of the lowest shot volumes in the league. And yet have shipped a fair few goals. Seems that either teams have been very clinical against us or that when we do give up chances they tend to be easy ones.
117 Posted 21/11/2019 at 15:57:42
It's worth noting, for completeness, that our conceded goals, which is of course the more important statistic, is 18 (in 12 games) and this is the 5th highest in the league.
Pickford has had a mixed season. He has made 27 saves. This is 17th most in the Premier League. But consider that Gazzaniga is on one less (26), but Lloris has 30 saves, so that's 56 between the two of them.
The keepers who have made less saves but have played most of the games are Arrizabalaga (20), Crystal Palace's keepers but they have 39 combined, Liverpool whose keepers have 21 combined. Even Man City's Ederson has made 29 saves.
This isn't necessarily a major criticism of Pickford, but clearly there is room for improvement.
118 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:04:02
Do you apply this now to Moise Kean? You know what I'm talking about hahaha :-)
Sam @116 re: the limited shots yet still giving up goals, I very recently had this discussion with some friends. I think it boils down to, if a team builds up play and thusly allows our defense & deeper mids to play defense, we don't concede a lot of goals. Conversely, when teams counter quickly and get behind everyone but a couple guys, or we make dreadful mistakes (Iwobi-Holgate vs Spurs), or we still continue to botch corner set piece defense (Mina-Schneiderlin @ Soton), or brain fart off other set pieces (Gomes-Pickford @ Brighton), or simply fall apart (Digne OG @ Brighton), we give up goals without even conceding too many shots.
It's one of those stats I put an asterisk on.
119 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:28:41
And yes, you can certainly see a lot on TV you cannot see in the stadium and vice versa. For example, after the Spurs game I was walking out straight on ToffeeWeb and asking what happened to Gomes as Son obscured my view of the lunge.
The problem with TV is even the wide angle is not wide enough. And the TV shows you a fixed view. Whereas in the stadium you can watch what you want to watch. You can get a much better appreciation of shape. Regards Kean you could see better in the stadium how he was knocking the ball inside the full back into an area the centre back could stroll into to get the ball before him.
I always rewatch the games and see stuff on TV I missed at the stadium. I like to watch particular players and see what they are doing. Their positioning and so on. My favourite being Gomes. I watch him like a hawk. Also Tom Davies. And of course I like to glance at Marco on the touchline and see how hes trying to influence the game as people very wrongly present him as passive.
120 Posted 21/11/2019 at 16:53:07
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as is the beautiful game, Southampton were awful they looked to me like a overweight league of Ireland team who had just return from pre-season, Awful team who were nt playing for their manager just coming off a record defeat who we barely beat
I refuse at this point to drown in any more stats regards Silva I have watched nearly every game he has been in charge of now, Other teams "hand us the inititive" simple and then laugh at our best, how many times have you seen this we cannot unlock average teams who keep their shape
Silva uses these pointless stats and talks about all the "moments" we had in the game, is like the thuggish unskilled boxer swinging wildly at the opponent for 8 rounds only to be flattened by ONE sucker punch, is a pattern I am afraid
Makes us look like Real Madrid if you look at the stats, but I look at the "quality" and "effectiveness" of what we are doing on the pitch, the only stat I take serious is the one in the Top corner of the TV screen. Unfortunately for us we wont be playing Southampton every week
121 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:28:01
TV tends to follow the ball totally. In contrast, being at the game enables you to see more movement off the ball, including how players not on the ball make space for team mates by drawing opposing players into different positions. You can get a better sense of how the team is operating as an integrated whole, the overall patterns and movement.
They just do different, but complementary, things.
122 Posted 21/11/2019 at 17:42:06
Sometimes... you win when you lose.
123 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:21:56
I was just poking a little at you, Steve. All in good fun.
124 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:28:08
125 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:33:48
126 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:37:49
As for cheering for the wrong team, you could just point out you're an American and you support Chel-Ton and ask where the cheerleaders are. I'm sure the locals would forgive you.
127 Posted 21/11/2019 at 21:57:29
128 Posted 21/11/2019 at 23:42:49
I said this tongue-in-cheek kindov... :)
I did say "at present" and just to point out the fact that even I couldn't bring myself to accept defeat to that lot!! Despite being indifferent to us possibly losing to Southampton etc.
129 Posted 22/11/2019 at 00:42:43
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.