Reader Comments (44)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 06/08/2020 at 09:25:08
Good officials understand the game rather than only understanding the rules, there aren't too many modern officials who come across as anything other than over-paid, over-officious, would-be parking attendants.
Whatever happened to the spirit rather than the letter of the law? Perhaps there are too many 'lines' being used by those sat in ivory towers making ad-hoc rules and decisions?
2 Posted 06/08/2020 at 10:08:09
Besides, how are the lines drawn? There was one game early on in the season when Salah scored for Liverpool (forget which match). Initially the lines drawn by Sky proved that he was clearly offside, a few minutes later the "official" lines proved that he was just on-side. Of course, the goal stood. If it had been Sheffield Utd, it wouldn't have. Decisions are also affected by the width of the line.
Only disallow a goal if the decision to give the goal was a clear and obvious error. The referee must be the judge of that by consulting the monitor.
3 Posted 06/08/2020 at 10:32:23
4 Posted 06/08/2020 at 11:08:03
We are stuck with biased referees, they will always be with us. Okay if you are a top team, not so much for most other teams and it seems like very rarely with Everton.
5 Posted 06/08/2020 at 11:19:50
Offside calls should only be called when there is clear daylight and not the width of a nose or a toe or even an arm.
I don't think referees are biased but some are more incompetent than others.
6 Posted 06/08/2020 at 11:22:47
The human errors are still there in abundance, the personal interpretations are still there, however, they are not what we are used too, instantaneous, they are compounded by the ridiculous time it takes to come up with the wrong call. If the right call is given, it is by such fine margins that the game is becoming sterile.
No, for me, VAR is a bridge too far. In my opinion, it is, in the main, a failure and should be binned at the earliest opportunity. It is ruining the game we love.
7 Posted 06/08/2020 at 11:51:38
Some things get worse before they get better, but just after the restart, Sheffield Utd, who were pushing the top four at the time, scored a goal at Villa, until the “camera lied” (if not a totally sackable offence - for the VAR ref) and consequently sent Bournemouth into the Championship.
We got away with one years ago at Bolton, that consequently sent down The Trotters instead of us, but, my my, the cheating will only get worse once the fuckers don't even have to justify it.
8 Posted 06/08/2020 at 12:18:06
It has created extra levels of bureaucracy and more arguments. Like the 'drinks breaks', my view is that this is an imposition of artificial 'excitement' for TV, advertising and those with no attention span.
It is an insult the the paying, match-going fan and those of us who remember and cherish exciting, flowing football.
9 Posted 06/08/2020 at 12:28:02
10 Posted 06/08/2020 at 12:28:09
11 Posted 06/08/2020 at 12:45:59
12 Posted 06/08/2020 at 12:57:49
When I got it home, it was a piece of crap.
13 Posted 06/08/2020 at 13:20:44
However, I believe that if the Sheffield United goal had stood at Villa Park this season, Villa would still have stayed up on the basis of having scored one more goal than Bournemouth. The tightest of margins possible!
14 Posted 06/08/2020 at 14:02:19
Whilst searching, I came across this 25-minute 'Story of 1969-70 campaign' which is well worth a viewing, not a great deal of match footage but lots of comment by the players mostly from Joe Royle.
15 Posted 06/08/2020 at 14:03:04
Corruption has never been far away in football and therefore the exact opposite of this decision is needed. More openness and transparency not less.
I still think that there should be a few cm of grey area for margin of error. If the striker is offside by a few mm then the tech just isnt good enough to say for certain and the goal should stand.
In cricket they play the 3rd umpires thoughts and deliberation when deciding the outcome. Why not the VAR referee. It would certainly keep them honest and on their toes.
Drawing a cloak of secrecy around their decisions is a retrograde step where laziness and corruption will thrive. It will cause much more concern over the whole process.
16 Posted 06/08/2020 at 14:43:11
I also think the offside law should be scrapped or at least overhauled. The latter will require some careful thought and imagination, probably beyond the wit of the game's current lawmakers.
One experiment I would like to see involves play outside the penalty area. Providing an attacker is running forwards as the pass is played, he is onside. That would discourage defenders from playing a high line and in turn create more space for play in midfield.
17 Posted 06/08/2020 at 15:00:35
After watching the 1970 action perhaps you'll understand my clinging to the past. Good football, and passion in abundance, sadly a bit before your time.
18 Posted 06/08/2020 at 15:12:15
I envy you the two fine teams that you saw under Catterick's tutelage, it's such a shame that there's not much footage of that period available unlike the wall-to-wall coverage of today's game. Hope you're keeping safe and well.
19 Posted 06/08/2020 at 16:42:36
20 Posted 06/08/2020 at 18:12:57
Watching India playing England a couple of years ago, their captain, Kohli, wasted so many with stupid challenges that he lost out on not being able to make other challenges which would have been successful.
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. Appoint two refs per game, one on the pitch and one at ground level with a monitor to view the decision with his/her decision as final. Hopefully, this would stop outside interfence and managers/captains would learn when to challenge effectively!
Just waiting to be told that I am a wally for daring to think this way!
21 Posted 06/08/2020 at 19:13:28
As for VAR, it should be in place but it's being run by people who just aren't very competent. Add to that the fact that handball and offside rules were changed in an attempt to create artificial black and white in a sport that is full of grey areas and we've ended up with more bad decisions than we were getting before.
There's been a complete lack of common sense and football knowledge in bringing in VAR. It's a system designed by lawyers, not footballers.
22 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:06:13
23 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:07:42
25 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:18:35
So that disallowed goal did not send them down, and as Mike Allison rightly points out, it was a definite foul on Southall which even us down the other end could clearly see.
26 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:31:43
We're in an age where all areas of life are being held to tighter standards of control and so-called "efficiency". Of course, the only answers to this are hyper-monitoring, computers and digitization: just like off the pitch.
It is being forced into everything. Whether or not it makes an improvement in the eyes of those on the receiving end, is immaterial. The acceptance of its presence here is the initial goal – not improvement of the sport. The Machine. You can't get away now, for even 90 minutes once or twice a week.
For more than a century of football, players, fans, everybody in the sport, all had the same instinctive understanding of the vagaries of the game. Mistakes, events missed, misinterpretations, moral injustices, undeserved victories.
No-one would ever ask for these anomalies. Their existence was simply a part of the deal when humans engaged in competitive sport. Equally, the real extremes of behaviour and outcome were known to all, the boundaries intuitive, and action was taken when necessary – mostly the correct action. Football worked pretty well I thought. I loved it.
After just a couple of years, we're now all discussing the details of VAR. Changes, improvements, updates. The question of whether it should even be here, is slowly fading away. It's now all but inveigled itself into the fabric of our sport. It won't be going away anytime soon.
I listen to a lot of sport radio as I go about my day. Much of the time when driving, too. I'm about sick of VAR talk. It's so prolific. It feels as much like an engineered talking point, hammered and consolidated into place. Kneecaps offside? Heads, shoulders? Really? Line or no line? We're being played with, I believe.
The problems are not due to people that don't know football, or incompetence. It's working just as intended, and we ain't seen nothing yet. Mike said it above: artificial black and white in a sport full of grey areas. That grey was human, we're human, and all was fine.
True that the system was not designed (or at least, instigated) by footballers, or with sporting intent. "Lawyers" is sort of closer to the real driver behind it – but that's another story. If there is ever a chance to get VAR out, and I don't hold my breath, I hope it's taken.
27 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:45:02
Those days are fading with every passing season.
28 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:57:18
As for offside, you are either on or off. Why should a wrong decision be allowed because it was close? We all know who will get the benefit of those.
My problem is with the incompetence of VAR officials who have made some shocking decisions. That does not mean that the system is bad – just that the same clowns who make bad decisions on the field are now making them a hundred miles away.
29 Posted 06/08/2020 at 21:59:22
Big knobs in Ivory towers, making decisions to line there own pockets. Can you just fuck off, I want my game back, please.
30 Posted 06/08/2020 at 22:01:15
31 Posted 06/08/2020 at 22:10:05
32 Posted 06/08/2020 at 22:17:14
33 Posted 06/08/2020 at 22:32:49
Motor racing uses timing and always has, electronically for years, to thousandths of a second, which humans couldn't do. However, controversies are resolved only later, not only by people that know what they're talking about, but with discussion with the drivers and team members involved... for the human aspect.
The inevitable corollary of this in football, is the eventual assessment of all or almost all, decisions. Once the culture is embedded, where does it stop? Someone said today on TalkShit..., er Sport, that we will end up like American football, with cheerleaders and commercials in the waiting periods – and we will.
As to keepers coming off their line (which I know is being discussed currently) we have everything in place already to stop that. The whole world can see it, yet the guy stood there to monitor it can't? This happens in life generally now: a push and rush for new rules without even operating and implementing those that already exist.
If secondary checking absolutely must be used, then why not ex-footballers or similar looking once at a replay from a useful angle, at normal speed? That's human, and would quickly pick up any glaring error (not that I personally advocate even this).
It's a hard thing to define and describe, to resolve into a specification. After all, anyone opposing VAR could simply be levelled with the accusation "Are you condoning mistakes".
No, but we don't want football turned into a digitized hell.
34 Posted 06/08/2020 at 22:54:08
All that has been taken away from us at the top level of the game which has been reduced to a concoction for TV viewers, media and pundits.
VAR is an abomination. People are kidding themselves if they think it can ever be made acceptable to match-going fans.
35 Posted 06/08/2020 at 23:03:22
The playoffs for who goes into the Premier League was a perfect example, where there were a couple of questionable decisions that may have changed the game and a possible promotion, but there was no VAR. And as has been mentioned, a couple of questionable decisions in the Premier League by VAR may have changed the relegation table.
Why shouldn't more leagues be given the help of VAR instead of those who are paid for broadcast rights by media giants? Look at the one Wolves got away with tonight – I believe the opposition's player had his elbow offside.
36 Posted 06/08/2020 at 23:19:09
37 Posted 06/08/2020 at 23:34:02
Although VAR has the potential, it still seems to be the decision of the ref and whether he feels he needs to use VAR. What I found last season was that it was still used to the benefit of those teams that had experienced bias in the past.
They can bring out all their facts and figures about fairness but what they forget to query is when and why VAR was requested. Any goal against the RS was queried and any goal for Man City was queried. What you didn't find was that any goal for the RS or against Man City was queried.
Also take for example the hand ball at Goodison, which was so obvious with all commentators saying it should have been a penalty, and yet the ref didn't ask for it to be looked at. Add to that, the late goal against Man Utd which was considered good by most and yet they had to go and ask VAR where they scrutinise every possibility.
For offside I would like to see and marginal decision given to the attacker, if the decision is not 100% obvious then don't give it (however, this is still open to interpretation).
Anyway, time will tell but with VAR, I believe you use it for every decision from TV cameras with an indication to the ref (that means off the ball incidents, bad tackles, offsides, hand balls etc...) or completely scrap it and put it behind us. TV cameras can usually make a decision pretty quick so it shouldn't need excessive delays, some of which have been farcical this year.
38 Posted 07/08/2020 at 05:10:04
A player is only offside if their body (torso, not arms or legs) is ahead of the defender with clear distance between them. In other words, if you can see daylight, then he is offside. If you can't, they are level, they are not offside.
It also prevents another obvious issue that few comment on, at what point is a ball is deemed to have left the foot of the passing player? A split-second difference in timing of that ball determines the position of the player receiving. Hence the idiotic calls.
Clear daylight = offside.
No daylight, no offside.
Think about it... got to be better than what we have.
39 Posted 07/08/2020 at 08:03:31
Unfortunately, it has been used more for a ridiculous interpretation of the rules with the whole system panicking from one disaster to the next – rather like Covid!!
The issue is, most of the cheating happens from players at the top teams who influence the refs, and the immediate accountability is zero as the replays aren't played for the audience.
A solution – Do what Rugby League and cricket do and play the replays and the conversations for everyone to hear. If a decision is too tight – the decision is taken back to the on-field decision. The start of the conversation clarifies the refs original decision (ie – not offside) then if there is some doubt as to whether a toe is offside – you revert back to the original decision.
Another farce was in the FA Cup Final. The ref obviously made a mistake with the second yellow, but VAR wasn't allowed to look at it because it wasn't a red.
40 Posted 10/08/2020 at 12:22:34
Poor refereeing decisions are bad enough; to have to wait 5 minutes and then still get poor decisions made is ludicrous.
41 Posted 10/08/2020 at 14:23:57
We wonder why players don't show passion. Scoring goals has now become a sterile clinical process that can take minutes to decide.
99% of football fans watch the game for the goals and excitement. The other 1% are the bureaucrats that make the rules.
I would have offside where there is clear daylight between defender and attacker. Deciding things with the dodgy lines going across the pitch is pathetic.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that VAR has stopped diving. I strongly disagree; I wouldn't be surprised if more penalties were given last season.
42 Posted 16/08/2020 at 10:41:55
Sorry, youre all just pissin in the wind!
43 Posted 30/08/2020 at 13:44:49
Load of bollocks.
44 Posted 31/08/2020 at 02:22:52
In football, they can even go back to see if a foul was committed in the lead up to the goal, that could be a good 6 passes before the goal, or try to justify a toe being offside.
45 Posted 01/09/2020 at 18:27:40
Technology works in other sports (Tennis, Rugby spring to mind), so there is no reason it can't in football.
I particularly like the way they use it in Rugby. Total transparency with the on-field official communicating with the video officials. The players, spectators and television audience can see the same screen, watch the same replays and hear the debate they are having to come to a decision and the logic in their thought process.
Do they get it right 100%? I don't know enough about Rugby, but I doubt it. What does appear obvious is that because of the transparency and at least seeing, hearing and understanding how they have come to their decision, there is much more acceptance.
Football needs to be more transparent in its use of technology to make fair decisions. However, the first step is to introduce competent officials, both on the pitch and on the monitors.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.