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Derek Thomas
1 Posted 18/05/2020 at 02:09:20
Someday, Football has to come off the life support of the mega money ventilator. There may be casualties if the plug is pulled. I just hope it's not us.

Of course, it may also be out of the clubs' hands if the ventilator providers decide they want them back, as they're only going to fund 6 ventilators (or maybe even 4) and they're also moving them abroad to Europe.

Eric Myles
2 Posted 18/05/2020 at 03:33:42
"European revenues have become hugely significant to the top 5 clubs with Uefa rewarding clubs whose domestic broadcasters have paid the highest rights figures."

Paul, can you explain what you mean by this?

Tony Abrahams
3 Posted 18/05/2020 at 09:54:09
I was thinking the same Eric, and also thinking is this a legal loophole in FFP?
Paul [The Esk]
4 Posted 18/05/2020 at 11:02:10
Morning Gents. When UEFA calculate the revenues due to each club as they advance through the competition, part of the calculation considers how much the club's domestic broadcaster has paid for the European broadcasting. The higher the payment made by the broadcaster, the greater the increase in revenues received by their domestic participants.
Paul Tran
5 Posted 18/05/2020 at 11:43:29
Why would the broadcasters pull the plug? They need football more than football needs them. I hope the football authorities remember this when the inevitable negotiations start.
Tony Abrahams
6 Posted 18/05/2020 at 11:56:44
Possibly why they are desperate to finish this season Paul T, to tighten their bargaining hand even more?

I’ve been reading about Saudi Arabia, and some experts saying it’s the end of an era, for these oil rich Middle Eastern country’s. Ed Miliband, is already talking about a greener environment and it got me thinking about how valuable an asset Usmanov and his steel, might just become, once this pandemic is over?

Paul [The Esk]
7 Posted 18/05/2020 at 13:21:14
Paul #5. The broadcasters rely upon subscriptions and advertising to fund their acquisition of sporting rights. A severe global recession will see a dramatic reduction in subscription levels and advertising rates. As a result, weaker broadcasters be forced to drop football (assuming they survive).
Alan J Thompson
8 Posted 18/05/2020 at 13:29:28
It would seem that clubs need to insert clauses into all their contracts in case the impossible should again raise its head, certainly the TV companies did, and then make allowance for reserves, or insurance, to cover such an eventuality as it would appear that their attitude has been one of "that will never happen".

Anyone remember the Monty Python sketch about University Challenge?
Karl Marx, your starter for 10, when did Coventry City last win the FA Cup?
Turned out to be a year or so later.

Jerome Shields
9 Posted 18/05/2020 at 18:57:12
Alan #8

This seems to have been the glaring weakness that was exposed regarding the Premiership Governing body. They have assumed the gravy train would just keep running. Maybe they have no choice as far as the Top Six are concerned( a give me solutions not problems scenario).

Its not surprising given the lack of leadership in the Premier League, what has unfolded since the crisis started, where the interests of key pressure parties, can paralyse the whole leadership process. It also gives rise to the possiblity that the richer Clubs are able to manipulate the direction the Premier League takes and players have a adnormal amount of power.

There is a clear demarcation between the Top Six and the rest of the Premier League, in the analysis that Paul the Esk has provided in his article. Spurs did well to bridge the gap, though they have got rid of the Manager that got them there. It obvious that the Top Six will want to protect their financial interests and the Premier League will not want to antagonise them, towards the muted Uefa plans for a European Super League.

John McFarlane Snr
10 Posted 18/05/2020 at 19:40:33
Hi Jerome [9],

Approaching my 82nd birthday and being exceedingly selfish, it would give me great pleasure if I could witness the formation of the much mooted European Super League, because it would restore our football to a predominately British institution, populated by predominately British clubs who would (in my opinion) be forced to return to the system of paying sensible transfer fees and sensible salaries, to predominately British players.

To those who would claim that it would lead to a decline in playing standards, I would readily agree, but whatever standard that clubs attain, there will always be winners and losers, better and worse teams, delight and dejection, just as there are now, which has always been the case. I know the likelihood is less than slim, but I can live in hope, can't I?

Jerome Shields
11 Posted 18/05/2020 at 23:51:11
John #10,

I know where you are coming from.

I have often thought that Everton would be better in the Championship. As there would be more equitable competition and all clubs stand a chance of winning or even getting into an exciting playoff competition at the end of the season. I also think that there are some awful games in the Premier League and some players who can put in woeful performances are still being paid enormous wages. I hadn't thought like you regarding the European Super League, but thanks for awaking me to the advantages, which I do think you are correct about.

I can see the scenario developing as I described materializing, because I do think the top six clubs will take any opportunity to maintain their status, and use it to suppress competition.

I have always felt that winning against Wimbledon all those years ago was a missed opportunity to get relegated, giving us a better subsequent 20 years than we had. I am sure the fan that kissed the Centre spot at the end of the game in hindsight would feel the same.

Brian Williams
12 Posted 19/05/2020 at 00:08:57
I am sure the fan that kissed the centre spot at the end of the game in hindsight would feel the same.

I wouldn't bet on that mate!

Jay Wood

13 Posted 19/05/2020 at 01:00:04
"I have always felt that winning against Wimbledon all those years ago was a missed opportunity to get relegated, giving us a better subsequent 20 years than we had. I am sure the fan that kissed the centre spot at the end of the game in hindsight would feel the same."

That really is going some Jerome. That is possibly the most bizarre, cringeworthy and warped words I have ever read on TW.

Eric Myles
14 Posted 19/05/2020 at 08:50:31
Paul #4, thanks for the explanation, I was thinking it could be a more duplicitous reason.

But even so, you're saying that two teams that play in the same round will receive different amounts from UEFA for progressing, and for getting there, based on external factors out of their control.

And nobody has ever challenged that?

Tony Abrahams
15 Posted 19/05/2020 at 09:07:55
Your broadcaster gave us more money than their broadcaster, so we are giving you more money than them. Sounds fair to me, Eric, keeps the littler countries in their place, whilst showing the bigger countries that there is plenty more where that come from, if you eventually want to break away, or maybe just another loophole, to help keep some clubs more financially complient?
Jerome Shields
16 Posted 19/05/2020 at 09:28:19
Jay #13,

Thank you for your comment.

I felt over the years that Everton have been quite delusional in winning anything and have only got into the top four once, only to be dumped out of the Champions League in the play-off stages.

This is because, in my opinion, though they have all the trappings of a Premier League side, even an appropriate history, and theyfound a goose with a golden egg, they have not achieved anything, but everyone at Everton has done quite well out of it.

Everton never faced the reality of having to get back to football basics. To win anything, that is where Everton had and have to start and build from. Changing Managers, buying in players just glossed over what was and is needed.

Ancelotti is the first Manager who has tried to address these basics and even he, given the Culture of the Club, has had to tread carefully.

Relegation all those years ago would have forced the club to address these basics, without doing too much damage, and we all would be looking at a different Everton today and would not be on this god-forsaken roundabout we have been on for over 20 years.

Jerome Shields
17 Posted 19/05/2020 at 09:30:15
Brian #12

You are probably right.

John McFarlane Snr
18 Posted 19/05/2020 at 09:57:19
Hi Jerome [11],

My vision of a restructured League system did not include the relegation of Everton, quite the opposite in fact. I feared on the occasions of the narrow escapes against Wimbledon and Coventry City, that relegation, if that fate befell them, could lead to them spending years in the wilderness, or that they could become one of those yo-yo clubs, too good for one division and not good enough for another.

I can't agree with your view but I respect your right to express it.

Jerome Shields
19 Posted 19/05/2020 at 13:21:35
John #18,

Than k you for your reply. At that time, it was the only time I considered such a solution, when I believed the damage would have been limited. As you correctly point out, there are dangers with such a solution after that time that would have resulted in the scenario you described.

But when you see Ancelotti concentrate on getting players to attack space, particularly the near post, and wanting positive passing forward from midfield, and good distribution from the back. I realise how much fundamentals have been lacking before his appointment and how far players are off speed in these fundamentals.

Back then, Peter Johnson was Chairman and Kenwright was his loyal Director, the Club just drifting down on pitch quality and basic play, though he made considerable money on his investment when he sold.

What Ancelotti, one of the most experienced Manager there is, has concentrated on are the fundamentals of play and a more effective backroom structure, issues that have been left unaddressed for over 20 years.

It is by no means certain that Ancelotti will be successful, the crisis has interrupted his momentum. But the crisis will also cause fundamental changes in the Premier League, where those with the most resources come to the fore. It may go the way you hope, but it also could result in increasing dominance of the top six.

I would rather watch competitive football in the Championship, rather than predictable exhibition play in the Premier League, with the football equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters.

Eric Myles
20 Posted 19/05/2020 at 13:47:59
Tony #15, exactly, it keeps the littler clubs / nations from 'getting above their station'.

Similarly with not allowing the real champions of littler countries into the "Champions" League but allowing 3rd- and 4th-placed teams from some bigger countries to enter.

Eric Myles
21 Posted 19/05/2020 at 14:12:54
Jerome #19, Johnson just about broke even with his sale of the Club, it's Kenwright that has made a considerable profit.
Dave Abrahams
22 Posted 19/05/2020 at 15:13:39
Jerome (11), regarding the feelings of Everton fans after the Wimbledon game, I know my own after the initial relief and great feeling of elation was the enormous anger I felt towards Mike Walker and whoever appointed him the following day.

My anger was greater towards Howard Kendall and whoever appointed him after the Coventry game. That such a great club like Everton was allowed to drift into such distress and despair was scandalous, and we still haven't really been pointed in the right direction, although I feel more hopeful (there's that word again) recently that we are moving forward.

Paul [The Esk]
23 Posted 19/05/2020 at 16:26:09
Eric, the system (Uefa payments) is even more insidious – the payments reflect the position you qualified from in your domestic league and your European coefficient. All geared to giving the established successful clubs the maximum share of the revenue.
Eric Myles
24 Posted 20/05/2020 at 02:29:06
Insidious indeed Paul and not in the interests of the perennial Champions League qualifiers to object.

Is the Europa League payment system the same?

Jerome Shields
25 Posted 20/05/2020 at 17:43:59
Eric #21.

For some reason, I recall that Peter Johnson bought his share the Club for the ridiculous amount of £8 million and sold his share for £20 something million. Could be wrong, but I remember coming across a very down hearted Everton fan who asked me what I thought was the problem. I said it was all about money, not football, and quoted him similar figures.

David #22

I despaired regarding those two appointments also. A Liverpool fan whose father-in-law knew Ronnie Whelan told me that the Liverpool dressings room was alive with rumours regarding Kendall's problem, giving themselves a break from whining about Souness. I understood the situation after that.

The other thing that angered me was, after winning the FA Cup, Joe Royle found himself with a sizable number of the team with contracts coming to an end and looking to move on, meaning he faced a rebuild, and Peter Johnson not wanting to spend. I also think we got Kenwright, a Johnson man, whose sole objective was to stay in the Premier League at as little cost as possible.

Moyes lasted so long because he could achieve that, but that was his comfortable limit. Meanwhile, other teams kept investing and moved on. I don't really think things changed with Kenwright, he just went ahead with the existing plan, and we were all that sick of the Johnson era that we let it go.

Terry White
26 Posted 20/05/2020 at 18:08:31
Eric (#21), evidence that "Kenwright has made a considerable profit?"

REAL evidence, actual numbers, not newspaper stories and gossip please.

Kevin Prytherch
27 Posted 20/05/2020 at 18:26:52
Terry - looking through various sources, it would appear that both Kenwright and Johnson made a profit.

Johnson invested around £10million, then sold for around £25 million 4 years later. When you take inflation into account, that was around a £13.75 million profit.

Kenwright invested £9million, then sold for around £22.5 million. However, due to the length of time he was in charge, his initial investment would have been worth about £15 million once Inflation was taken into account, so he made around a £7.5 million profit.

Jerome Shields
28 Posted 20/05/2020 at 21:36:40
Kevin #27,

Those are round the figures I remember regarding Johnson. The figures I remember were he bought for £8 million and sold for £26 million. I think Johnson's holding in his Food Hamper business was worth £26 million, which I initially thought of when challenged by Eric, which caused me to doubt. He made an absolute killing, was able to off-load all and move to Monaco.

Kenwright will make a lot more than £7. 5 million, he still has a shareholding, which will cost a lot more to buy out than the intial individual share value Moshiri bought at. He can sit back with a new Stadium project and any progress adding to his share value. The £7. 5 million is on the shares he sold which cost him part of the £9 million he invested.

Johnson may have put £2 million into the Club, but Kenwright did not put in one sausage. Everton would have done better without either of them, both of one and the same mentality.

Thanks for taking the trouble of doing the research, Kevin.

Tony Everan
29 Posted 25/05/2020 at 20:17:42
It's going to be a different financial football world. Lower transfer fees, agent fees, lower wage contracts, more loan deals and more swap deals.

We will struggle like hell to shift players on big money, there will be no takers because of their massive wages. Mr Brands has to find a magic wand. For the most part it will be a case motivating and organising the squad that we have got, through necessity.

Clubs will have to get creative when it comes to assembling a team without the suicidal risk of spending recklessly, because future income streams are very uncertain.

David Ellis
30 Posted 29/05/2020 at 08:28:20
Alan (No 8),

"Anyone remember the Monty Python sketch about University Challenge? Karl Marx, your starter for 10, when did Coventry City last win the FA Cup? Turned out to be a year or so later"

Forgive the pedantry but it was Leicester City. They still haven't won it. And Coventry won it in 1987 - at least 14 years after the Live in Drury Lane Album that I heard that Lenin/Karl Marx sketch.

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