Koeman calls for realism following Spurs defeat

Sunday 10 September 2017  429 Comments  [Jump to last]
Ronald Koeman admitted that his Everton side were surprised by Tottenham's midfield shape and could not handle their physicality in yesterday's 3-0 defeat to the London side at Goodison Park, while also cautioning against raised expectations following the Blues' big-spending summer.

Everton fell two goals behind by half time thanks to Harry Kane's fortunate opener where a cross-cum-shot from wide on the right deceived Jordan Pickford and Christian Eriksen's predatory strike following poor defending by the home side.

Kane killed the match less than a minute into the second half when he turned in Ben Davies's cross from an unmarked position.

“In the second half you could see we were far away from Tottenham, but in the first half an hour we were much closer," Koeman said following his team's second successive defeat.

“We knew they could change systems and play three at the back but, okay, we were surprised a little bit by the way they played in midfield.

“It made it difficult for us. We changed some players to try and help us in the second half but we conceded the third goal straight away.

“I've said before I think, along with Manchester City, Spurs are the best footballing side (in the Premier League). The difference is they have had the same group of players for a long time now.

“If you think we are trying to join them in that [top six] pack, it will be really difficult.”

Koeman was critical of his outfit's lack of fight in the game following Kane's opener but admitted that the timing of the third goal destroyed what little confidence may have been left.

He also cautioned about keeping expectations in check following Everton's big-spending summer may also be a factor, repeating his recent mantra that it will be hard for the Blues to crack the top six this season.

"I do not ask for yellow or red cards, but in several situations we were too nice," Koeman continued. "I saw some Tottenham players [that were] really clever in the battles. We were too nice, too weak in the second-half.

"But I think that also has to do with confidence. The third goal straight after half-time killed the confidence in the team.

"I know how it works in football. If you sign some players, [people tend to stop] being realistic," he said.

"Everybody is talking about Everton and the top six. But if you know the qualities, and the individual qualities of the players in the top six, it is a challenge.

"It is our ambition, but we need to realise it is difficult.

"We will learn from the mistakes today and we have enough games coming up to have a good reaction."

 

Reader Comments (429)

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Andy Codling
1 Posted 09/09/2017 at 23:41:24
Just seen Koeman's interview... bollocks, mate, your team is bereft of ideas.
Clive Lewis
2 Posted 10/09/2017 at 02:21:08
Our fans should not read this article, This is where our club is heading. I feel they need to act before we are a laughing stock like Valencia:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/apr/21/europeanfootball.sport

James Stewart
3 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:03:37
Getting "surprised" seems to be becoming habitual for Koeman. Every week his team selections are simply wrong. Something has to change.
Will Mabon
4 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:13:15
James, the manager has to be changed. This will continue to be reaffirmed the longer it's left unaddressed. Wrong appointment. It's a big step but it needs taking.
Phillip Warrington
5 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:20:50
Absolute bollocks. Everton are not even in the same league as the top Premier League teams and god help us when we play Liverpool.

And it's not the players – it's the way they are instructed to play, I finally worked it out – Koeman has got them so disorganized in the way they play, hence the slow movement and momentum, so that he can get more money to buy more midfield players and youth players so we can loan them out to 3rd rate teams and destroy their development.

Hey,at the end of the day, he just gets surprised by the other teams' tactics.

Peter Barry
6 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:30:23
Does Koeman wear Brown Shoes?
Daniel Lim
7 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:55:42
For people who know how, can we start an online petition to get to the club to get rid of him before it's too late?

I see us out of top 10 and even fighting relegation. He's simply incompetent.

Ernie Baywood
8 Posted 10/09/2017 at 03:57:14
He's a shithouse.

And I don't buy this "transfers are nothing to do with me" rubbish either – you're the manager, you're accountable for the performance of the team.

He spent over a year getting his excuses in early.

He's been backed in the transfer market for a year... yet we look like a team that has been thrown together from left-overs. I don't mean in terms of 'gelling', I mean there are bits missing entirely. Yet he still plays the same formations... regardless of whether he's got the players for it.

It's not like he's even likeable. You just know he couldn't give a fuck about this club. Failure is acceptable to him, providing he can blame someone else.

Daniel Lim
9 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:02:30
I would say I feel worse than when Martinez was here.
Colin Metcalfe
10 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:07:46
Martinez got the sack, and deservedly so; however, in his first season, he had the team playing his possession football after about 10 games and for a while it worked. He had successfully put his stamp on our playing style in less than half a season.

As for our present manager, I honestly cannot make head nor tail of the kind of football he wants his team to play!

Koeman took over a unfit and unmotivated team, this is true, but I can't see any progress – despite him having changed the whole team more or less. The last two games have been dire and, if there is no change, not only in our results but also our playing style, which is dog shite to watch, he should be gone by Xmas!

Daniel Lim
11 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:11:53
But, Colin, he had the full season last season and 8 matches this season. I'm not expecting anything from him. He may be able to get a few good performances here and there but I think that's more by accident than by his ability.
John Pierce
12 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:42:41
Koeman's words completely miss the point. Increased expectations are good, they are to be embraced. Not excused or tempered.

Apathy grows from stagnation. Even ardent acolytes must yield to the fact there is no progress, no pattern of play.

If there was a germ of identity, something to excited about, critics and criticism would held in check.

He just doesn't get it, Everton, and it shows.

Pete Clarke
13 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:51:05
None of us get paid to work out what the best team should be but we can have our say on it.

Koeman has set the team up in such an unprofessional manner for this level that he deserves no more than an ultimatum from the board for a very quick change in performances or he's out.

His system has got the team confused and unprepared. This is without doubt the worst football I have ever seen from a team with decent footballers in it and also from a manager who was supposedly highly rated.

We are run like amateurs. This manager rolls in on a massive undeserving salary, publicly slates players, and sets no plan for a balanced team. I could go on and on but something has to change quickly.

I would give him five to ten games to get a big improvement on the park or go.

Alan J Thompson
14 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:53:08
He should have until Christmas at the latest but to say that it will improve when we have finished playing the "top six" in this half of the season is just to ignore the obvious.
Phil Sammon
15 Posted 10/09/2017 at 04:57:07
Oh right, so he was surprised was he? Fair enough then. Can't be expected to win matches if the other team surprises you. There's just nothing you can do about it. Sometimes you have to hold your hands up and say, "Look, it's not my fault. I was surprised and that's that."
Pete Clarke
16 Posted 10/09/2017 at 06:23:56
Who would have thought that an opposing team could change tactics!! Who would have thought that another team would want to score a third goal without giving us a chance to get back into the game!!

Who would have thought that an almost entire back line and central midfield that cannot play a decent forward ball would do well against a top team.

Hats off to Bournemouth with little or no resources have come through the divisions to hold their own in the top flight with positive coaching!!!

Brian Porter
17 Posted 10/09/2017 at 06:37:56
I already said on another thread that I firmly believe Koeman is not the right man for the job. He tries to rule with an iron handbag – the players quite clearly are not responding to his methods.

None of the players he has alienated or the new signings are bad players. Most, if not all, are internationals, proud to represent their countries, but who are being made to look totally inept by a tactically naive manager. (Where have we heard that before?)

Koeman tries to abdicate all responsibility for our failure in the transfer market, thus effectively transferring all blame onto the shoulders of Steve Walsh and his team of scouts. Although I admit to finding it hard to understand what Walsh actually gets paid for, the buck finally stops with the man who picks the team and decides the match tactics.

Koeman appears totally bereft of attacking awareness or that goals win matches. Every team selection seems set up to try to avoid defeat rather than go out to win the game.

Sandro looked a really exciting player for Malaga last season but is being made to look useless by Koeman and his so-called tactics. The lad works best playing off a central striker, but Koeman refuses to try Calvert-Lewin and Sandro together, something I thought he might have tried yesterday.

But no, instead of changing the tactics or formation at half-time, he made two like-for-like changes, effectively putting the blame for a poor first half on Klaassen and Sandro. What a motivator!

Every week, it seems more of our squad are becoming disillusioned with Everton (or with Koeman). Before long, he will have the whole squad against him and it will take some hard choices by Moshiri, who hand-picked the manager, to correct the situation.

I honestly believe that Koeman, who clearly has no love or loyalty to Everton, is a fraud, living on his reputation as a player, rather than his record as a manager. We could have gone for someone like Pellegrini with a pedigree of actually winning the Premier League, but instead brought in the man who was an abject failure at Valencia. How long must we suffer this insufferable bore of a manager who simply appears incapable of... erm... managing?

Denver Daniels
18 Posted 10/09/2017 at 06:38:01
He's blaming the players and saying they are not good enough to break into the top six but he's signed most of them. He's basically saying we can forego any points against the top six as we can't compete with them. Talk about lowering expectations.
David Barks
19 Posted 10/09/2017 at 06:53:50
How does an owner not read those comments and demand a meeting at 8 am Monday morning to simply say "You are relieved of your duties"???

My God, what a fraud Koeman is. Surprised by their formation, their physicality, our confidence lost, essentially saying top six is not possible. Okay then... goodbye.

Daniel Lim
20 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:03:51
I'm pessimistic with regards to Moshiri taking action soon. Simply because this fraud has just spent how much? Like £150m in this recent transfer window. Moshiri and/or the club is held to ransom now!
Ian Jones
21 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:06:18
Pete @ 16. Re Bournemouth. Appreciate the comments about them holding their own. I like watching them play.

However, at the moment, they have played 4, lost 4 this season. They will need to keep their positivity levels up as well as their coaching.

James Watts
22 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:15:44
I'd be very surprised if Koeman got sacked any time before Christmas. He has his excuses already made for him which he's alluded to several times. In that we have several new players. That will get him through a few more months.

If we are in and around bottom 5 or 6 at Christmas, I can then see him getting booted. Around 10th or higher and still in Europe, he'll be here until the season end, or close too.

Doesn't escape from the fact that, when reading these comments, it just depresses me as it proves he really has no fucking clue. Surprised by the other teams tactics but doesn't change our system to combat it??? Utterly clueless.

Nitesh Kanchan
23 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:18:29
It was dreadful to watch. I have no clue what kind of game we were playing.

I don't mind if we were playing like the away side with them keeping all possession. If that was the case, either it was counter-attacking or long balls behind their defenders.

But those systems need wide players going up front along with two strikers or a striker and midfielder with quick feet for all. There is Lookman and Mirallas or even Lennon or Niasse to do that, whom he won't play, and our best player, Calvert-Lewin, comes on as substitute.

Koeman just has no clue what to do with the players he has, just like at Valencia with the likes of Villa, Silva, Mata, Morientes – all in their prime form. Just like Valencia, we will be fighting a relegation battle with Bournemouth, Huddersfield and Palace if this continues.

Three years wages for the Cuco Martina charity fund. Schneiderlin has been programmed to pass backwards or sideways, not the one to trigger counter attacks. Klaassen belongs to the Dutch league.

Only Sandro will come good but only with the right coach. He is bit like Mirallas right now, trying to take players on his own, just like at Malaga. But in England, he is finding less space to do that and also no support, hence getting fouled. But he will come good in the right system once he adapts.

Calvert-Lewin is the reason we have 4 points. He should start the next game and, last but not least, Koeman should be gone. Bring in Allardyce or Benitez for short term.

Phillip Warrington
24 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:36:02
I don't know about the rest of you guys, I don't mind Everton loosing some games as long as we are competitive and we have some form of game plan and a bit of swagger when were playing. At the moment, it's like they're playing a training game and the players are waiting for the coach to turn up to pick sides and blow the whistle.

At least under Moyes you always thought right up to the last second we could nick a win or salvage a draw, this team now it seems like they have better things to do after the game – and that doesn't include Koeman... surprise, surprise.

Winston Williamson
25 Posted 10/09/2017 at 07:50:37
Ahh silly me! There I was, full of ambition and hope! Koeman should've said earlier that we weren't aiming for the top six this season!

I'm not confused now. 7th is the aim? Nope? So, what is realistic? You tell me, Koeman, as it appears you're here to do my thinking for me...

Paul Setter
26 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:02:42
Pass, pass, pass, pass, lose possession, win it back by poor opposition passing, then pass, pass, pass – repeat the cycle. It is bloody hard to watch and frankly, for £6 million a year, should be at a higher level of performance, week-in & week-out.

This is worse than the previous idiot. Anyone who thinks we will finish in the top 6 is clearly not watching the same pathetic inept performances I've seen every single game this season so far. Big Ron out and now.

Jim Hillier
27 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:12:42
We're not having a lot of luck with our managers, are we? Mind you, don't take any notice of me... I wanted Frank de Boer and he wasn't even good enough for Palace. Fucking handy so many of my mates are Spurs fans, too.
Amit Vithlani
28 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:13:16
"How does an owner not read those comments and demand a meeting at 8 am Monday morning to simply say "You are relieved of your duties"??? My God, what a fraud Koeman is. Surprised by their formation, their physicality, our confidence lost, essentially saying top six is not possible? Okay then... goodbye."

David Barks – this I totally agree with. If Moshiri and Kenwright are to be measured for ambition, it will be how long they allow Koeman in the job whilst the team look so far away from the top 6.

I do not agree that we are sell-to-buy or that we did not spend enough this summer. That would suggest Koeman was operating with his hands tied behind his back.

No, I think he was given plenty. Lukaku wanted away and instead of replacing him, our management team decided to spend most of his cash on Sigurdsson, Klaassen and Rooney's signing-on fee.

Ambitious teams do not hang around if things veer of track – and we are clearly not going to get to the top 4 by next season (which Koeman was hired for) if we continue like this.

Jim Hillier
29 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:21:11
Martinez's first season was great, and it raised all our hopes. In his second season, we moved backwards, but often looked like we were just a small piece missing form becoming a really good team. That extra small piece never arrived, of course, and we just slid further and further down, which got him the sack.

I want to believe in Koeman, but there is very, very little on view that can sustain hope. Keep it tight and nick one, knife to a gunfight – Moyes did that with more competence. Is Koeman a more expensive, less competent Moyes wannabe?

Depressing.

Will Mabon
30 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:21:51
" He has his excuses already made for him which he's alluded to several times. In that we have several new players. That will get him through a few more months."

That probably won't wash when it comes near to "Vote of confidence" time.

"We need new players to improve".

"It is hard to improve with new players".

Perversely, he might be right. We have I think, brought in 13 players, and many gone. Without addressing their individual merits or faults, this represents a big change over 12 months.

I haven't enjoyed Koeman's methods, his man management, his PR, his tactics, team selections or lack of any perceivable path of team development. However, what's done is done, I and we here cannot change it.

Perhaps the decimation of what remained pre-Koeman would start to yield results, and would become at least slightly more apparent as more of his choice of players were added. A 3-year project – but surely some progress would be visible a third of the way in? It simply isn't.

If we accept that Lukaku leaving was a given, and we'd replaced him as best we could with the money from his sale, or more, then integrated that one/those two players, and started to work on improving our away form of last season, without signing even one other player... would we look like being much worse than last season? We certainly do now.

Maybe Koeman "knew" something. Some advanced tactical path, a new direction, cutting new techniques. As it is, it now seems to me at least, that he can't deal with what he himself has engineered. Perhaps a victim of his own permutations – and his answer is some kind of safe neutrality with no permutations. I have no clue what the hell he's aiming at, I've never seen it's like at Everton. It reminds me of Norwich last season, when overnight, it all seemed to grind to a halt.

Let's get Mike Walker back in before this gets serious.

Christian Watson
31 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:25:45
He should be embarrassed to say 'We were surprised' etc. With the resources at his disposal, the opposition team is watched several times before the game and as such there should never be any surprises – utter disgrace to say such a thing.

I'm not a fan a hiring and firing on a whim; however, we seriously seems to be heading nowhere under Koeman. Yeah, okay, we've spent money, lots of it, in the transfer window... but how the hell can we sell Lukaku so early with no like-for-like replacement lined up? No, not Sandro! I'm talking a proven tried and tested striker.

I fear for us at the moment.

Ciarán McGlone
32 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:30:51
Koeman is clearly being found out. The signs were there all of last season. The problem is that his transfer policy leaves us in a position where we will have to spend money to sort it out.

This could take quite a bit of time to rectify.

Stephen McNally
33 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:40:28
Whatever happened to "the project" he makes reference to? I would deduce that "the project" would mean a strategy that has ambition to break the top four and win some silverware! With that, expectations should rightly be raised.

Surely, Koeman, and his backroom team, have looked at the players and playing style of Tottenham, in preparation for the game; so, I don't buy his point.

My take on all of this, is that Walsh and Koeman have brought in players not good enough to meet the expectations of "the project" and paid over the odds in the process.

Furthermore, I'm beginning to feel that his man-management style is not up to the job and, this is having a detrimental impact on the spirit of the team: Niasse, Barkley, Mirallas etc would more than likely confirm this in private.

I really don't think this season will play out very well; however, I hope I am proved wrong.

Amit Vithlani
34 Posted 10/09/2017 at 08:46:34
Ciaran @ 32 agree. This will be the acid test of Moshiri.

The facts do not bear out that he has not given the manager all the necessary resources so far, or indeed put the club on a better financial footing.

But they will be damning if he allows Koeman to remain for too long.

The next man will need an equally large war chest.

This is when Moshiri's appetite and investment can be truly measured – if he fails to deliver then, then we do not have the ambitious new owner we all thought we had.

What is more – Koeman refers to "people's expectations being unrealistic". An ambitious owner would not allow results to sink the high expectations he himself set when he arrived of this club challenging the elite.

After all, when Moshiri took over, these were his words:

"There has never been a more level playing field in the Premier League than now."

Anthony Flack
35 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:03:45
That was the biggest gap in quality between us and the opposition at Goodison Park that I can remember for many years:

1. Martina was entirely unprotected without anyone in front of him. He looks okay to me but not in this set-up.

2. Williams was rubbish, (and is distinctly average): too slow and easily ruffled by Kane. He is bereft of ideas going forward and passes sideways to Baines or to Schneiderlin – even when they are in a worse position.

3. Schneiderlin was rubbish and has been in all 3 games I have attended this season. He plays like an advanced centre-half. He was so bad, after about 30 minutes I said to my dad, "Oh look, there he is!"

4. Klaassen is struggling looks like he is in the wrong league, will he keep his locker. Maybe as he is Dutch he'll have a special locker

5. Davies was poor – care needed as we will sap the confidence out and loose him.

6. Baines looked like he understood all of the above but does not look like a leader at all, and in fact looked sulky from 3-0 onwards.

Koeman is in a large part responsible for this as we really did not know what we were doing.

For our consolation:

- Spurs were just like this when Pocchetino took over, and I distinctly remember their fans disliking him quite a lot

- Our expectations are rightly high, but it is very soon, and we started with 6 or 7 new players.

Oh, I forgot about Sigurdsson and Sandro – enough said.

Hindsight is a marvel but a side without Klaassen, Williams, Sandro, Schneiderlin would have done a great deal better?

Starting with:

Davies on the right in front of Martina
Jagielka in the centre for Williams
Calvert-Lewin up front for Sandro
Schneiderlin replaced by Besic
Sigurdsson into the centre for Klaassen
And Lookman on the left

Barry Pearce
36 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:12:42
Sorry Ronald, you're making excuses that don't bare weight. We were rubbish – why not just be honest? Spurs were light-years better than us. Their new guy fitted in seamlessly.

Ours... oh, they need time to adjust to the physicality of the Premier League. How on earth was Klaassen classed as a box-to-box midfielder, and Martina, who was left exposed at times yesterday, can't defend to save his life.

Joe Edwards
37 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:15:40
I am afraid I have already given up completely on Koeman; he does or says nothing that inspires anything other than apprehension and confusion. If I feel like this, what do the players feel like?

He has sold or destroyed the confidence of our two best players and placed his confidence in geriatric players such as Williams who would be lucky to get on the bench at most teams.

I have given up, I feel more depressed than when Bobby Brown Shoes was here. We have gone from one extreme where everything was 'phenomenal' to the other where we have a manager who does nothing but blame, shame and criticize everyone and everything but himself.

I have never heard the morose twat say it was his fault once... God help us – we're doomed.

Daniel Lim
38 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:18:13
33 posts before this (okay, a few from me), and zero posts in defence of this joker. I can't remember posters on TW to have been so united and unanimous. The writing is on the wall.
Anthony Flack
39 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:31:07
Jesus H.... Take a read of the link on Clive's post (2) – headless chickens, is it catching? I think so. And Koeman is the carrier...
Kunal Desai
40 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:41:02
Sounds like this guy is starting to take lessons from the bullshit school of Martinez. I think the only project he is referring to is the one where he's getting a free ride for £18 million.

He's thought, "Yes, I will take this job with these mugs and see what I can do." Deep down, he's not bothered about how well Everton do. He'll do what he can but I get the feeling he's not fussed.

Karl Meighan
41 Posted 10/09/2017 at 09:55:45
I expect Martina will get stick from our fans, but when you have a central midfielder playing in-front of him, it gives him little or no chance against a very good Spurs side.

Williams was turned easily by Kane on two or three occasions, getting to close to the man yet continued to play the same way?

The Spurs new boy signed from Ajax is the only player we should have been interested in from that Club,. Yes, Klaassen has to be given more time but I just cannot see what his strengths on a football pitch are supposed to be. Maybe his agent passes brown paper bags under a table from two yards well.

Players out of position, square pegs in round holes, players wanting to play the same position – now where have we all seen this before?

Geoff Williams
42 Posted 10/09/2017 at 10:03:33
I don't know if others on here like me watch the pre-match warm up.

I watched Spurs and there was an intensity to everything they did. They practised moves which set their wingbacks free etc.

I then looked at Everton and they went through their half-hearted regular drills to finishing off just aimlessly kicking the ball about like a group of kids on a beach; little wonder they start games poorly.

The club is lacking leadership in all areas.

Anton Walsh
43 Posted 10/09/2017 at 10:07:13
This doubt for premium footie can't be good for any stadium plans. "Hello darkness, my old friend."
Gerard Carey
44 Posted 10/09/2017 at 10:11:06
Daniel (#38), well what does that prove!?

I will tell you: yesterday was so poor that there is no-one that could come on and defend Koeman. His comments after the the game will even drain the players further. More of this and he will be gone by Xmas.

Stan Schofield
45 Posted 10/09/2017 at 10:12:43
Koeman has done it yet again; he will not say that he is getting it wrong tactically. He always shirks admission of accountability. A sign of a really shite manager.
Garry Martin
46 Posted 10/09/2017 at 10:17:09
I'm afraid Mr Koeman is living off his former days as a Barcelona player, believes in his own hype, gives the impression that he's doing us a favour by managing EFC.

Reality is that this man is a con, always the first thing a conman does when found out is to blame someone or something else. Get rid now!!

Jim Knightley
47 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:03:48
We were terrible and Koeman isn't helping. Holgate, Davies and Calvert-Lewin should have all started. We are lacking pace and quality in certain areas.

But honestly, those dreamers expecting top 4 football or even more need to open their eyes. We are miles away from the best and it was obvious before a ball was kicked and it is obvious now. We are investing in the future and starting a squad transformation that will take time.

We only have one centre-back that is good enough and the other two are past it. I'd like to see Holgate in the centre but he is needed at right-back. Our best right-back is injured and Holgate will be a better centre-back than right-back; Martina is only a squad player.

Our left-back is getting on and will need replacing as the first-choice option sooner rather than later (Kolasinac would have been perfect). We lack dynamism and mobility in the attacking midfield/wing positions (Lookman looks our best bet and he is so young). That could be rectified with the 5 at the back if Coleman was fit and Baines 5 years younger but neither is the case.

And we need that striker – the idiots who claimed Lukaku's absence wouldn't be felt will feel the full force of a lack of a top striker this season, if a reminder after years of substandard options were needed.

Progress will have to come in the cups – I think we will improve later in the season with better fixtures and with more time for the likes of Sandro and Klaassen to find their feet. But this is a transformation in progress and we've done great work in buying certain younger talents this summer, although we needed another starting striker and centre-back. The question is whether Koeman is the manager to oversee this transformation.

When he took over I had optimism – he was progressive and tactically astute at Southampton. He fixed our home form last season and gave reason for optimism. But increasingly he is looking out of ideas and doing peculiar things.

I'd give him to Christmas and then look elsewhere if we are still stumbling. Spurs are much better than us in practically every position but there is no reason to play so meekly at home. We haven't got the fixtures of last time to blame. That second half against Man City, the match away in Croatia, the first half against Chelsea, and yesterday are just not good enough. And I've already got concerns about Sigurdsson and Rooney in the same set-up.

Pete Clarke
48 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:15:16
Ian @21. Bournemouth were using the same team that brought them up two divisions until recently but, like you have said, they've lost 4 out of 4 this term. However, you will not see them them simply roll over as we do but they have a go at anybody with far more limited players than we have.

It comes to something when I'm comparing us with Bournemouth but let's be honest, if Spurs had been commanded to do so yesterday, then we would have been looking at 7 goals conceded. They just went into training mode, it was so easy for them.

IMHO, Koeman does not know what he's doing, but we shall have to painfully wait and see...

Daniel Lim
49 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:19:44
Gerard @44,

You were saying exactly what I said. What does that prove?

Ian Hollingworth
50 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:26:26
Problem is the pre-season activity and hype by the club and the media has set an expectation with the fan base.

Koeman knows what we know – that we don't have the quality but the club we're happy to hype it all up.

We didn't have the quality required last season and we still don't, despite several transfers, so what exactly was the plan?

Keith Gleave
51 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:38:00
The comment was made yesterday about Mourinho now playing round pegs in round holes and his team is playing well, as is previously successful teams did.

I have said on previous threads we are not playing players in their correct positions. Calvert-Leewin should be in the centre, Sandro should be wide of him, Sigurdsson behind, Klaassen is a box-to-box battler not truly creative.

We had one good half against Split and it showed Schneiderlin could spray the ball around and that Lookman can play and threaten defences.

I really don't think Koeman has a clue about motivation, setting a team up or having a Plan B. All of us have our opinions about a number of players but it is clear to see why some of these players are playing in the way they are and why some appear totally disillusioned with our great club and its current manager.

Damian Wilde
52 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:40:22
"I would say I feel worse than when Martinez was here."

Times must be bad, Daniell!! 😏

Daniel Lim
53 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:41:33
Gerard,

After reading your post at 44 again, well my response at 49 might not be appropriate. I'm really losing my mind with this fiasco.

Don Alexander
54 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:46:27
The remit of any manager in any league is simple: improve on the previous season or else move on. That is especially so where manager and board jointly announce their shared "project" of Champions League qualification within three years.

The failure to sign a proper centre-forward is just that, a failure, but I do wonder how people reckon Lukaku would have made a contribution given his lackadaisical demeanour on a good day. At Southampton, Koeman had options at centre-forward in both seasons he was there, so who's culpable this time; him, Walsh, Moshiri, the board, or all of them?

That said, any team in the league would have quaked at our opening fixture list, especially with so many new players bedding in, but the comments of those who watched it, and Koeman's, should leave the powers-that-be in no doubt that a lot of points must be won by the end of October when we'll have played Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley, Arsenal and Leicester.

David Hughes
55 Posted 10/09/2017 at 11:58:11
Wow... so bad it hurts!

Koeman, it's all about passion; you talk about Everton like it's just a brand – we're not on the same page.

It should be "us" not "Everton" to you! I want to see some heart out on the pitch without players out of position or 3 number 10s out there. You've lost the plot, mate.

Why is this man not using Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, Mirallas up top? Klaassen... no! He needs time; will be good – same as Sandro – both need to come in off the bench. Oh, Rooney and Sigurdsson – a big no-no, one or the other.

Koeman, get some balls, start with a balanced team; new signings will have to wait their time. Jagielka needs to play in games like that! I mean, Koeman, sort out your head, man – we look like a laughing stock. Bring back the Dogs of War!!!!!! Start with the basics or do one, mate!!!!!!

Brian Harrison
56 Posted 10/09/2017 at 12:07:25
Well, I think that was the worst home performance I have seen under Koeman. I always thought that, with so many signings included and a tough first 5 fixtures, it could prove very difficult. I cant think of any team that have included so many new players have any joy, and it was certainly the case for Spurs after they sold Bale.

Having said that, you should still have your team set up correctly and organised, and that wasn't the case yesterday. I, like many, was screaming weeks ago for us to sign 2 decent strikers; I can't understand why Koeman seems obsessed with midfield players. He has signed 3 out and out players who normally play just behind the striker, Sigurdsson, Rooney and Klaassen. Now how anybody thinks you can play all 3 is beyond me.

After 20 minutes yesterday you could see were I sit in the Upper Bullens that the Spurs left back Davies had acres of space to run into, I don't think Martina should be at full back but he had absolutely nobody playing in front of him. So that allowed Ericksen and Davies have a 2 on 1 against Martina all the first half.

Getting on to the players, well I don't know were to start they looked at least a yard slower than Spurs, and were out muscled all through the game. I think this was highlighted by their 3rd goal, Kane received the ball a couple of yards outside our box when he played it wide to Alli. Now Schneiderlin was goal side of Kane yet, when Alli played the ball in, Schneiderlin had allowed Kane to get goal side of him. Also for this goal Michael Keane should have been in a position to stop the cross getting to Kane.

I think this also highlighted a problem we have had for at least a couple of seasons, if Lukaku didn't score then we struggled and it seems as if the same problem is there except we don't have Lukaku. We have played 4 games against 2 very good teams in Chelsea and Spurs we had 1 shot on target in 180 minutes. Against Man City, we played against 10 men for most of the match, yet City created all the chances in the 2nd half and deservedly equalized. We spent the whole 2nd half trying to defend a 1-goal lead against 10 men.

I think when Spurs scored the second, most of us knew it was game over. How he puts it right I am not so sure and without being able to change our attacking options till January could be problematic. Finally, young Lookman has looked promising so why was he replaced on the bench by Mirallas who probably has no future at the club and will probably be gone in January?

Philip Ashton
57 Posted 10/09/2017 at 12:39:21
Four games in and we are all doomed. Worst side ever, useless Manager, armchair keyboard warriors in full cry. Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me.

Spurs are a very good team, been together for three seasons, and were on their game yesterday. Everton had ten new players from when Bobby was potted. They are yet to gel as a team. I accept that this will be the job of Mr Koeman – that is what he is paid for.

Everyone needs to calm down, have some perspective. For me, a cup win and top ten position would be a great achievement in this transitional season.

I will continue to go to the game, support the team, as I have done for over 50 years. Believe me, I have seen worse, and seen better.

Up the Toffees.

Ian Riley
58 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:06:49
The squad for depth and quality is the best since I have been supporting Everton. The manager blames the other team for being to physical. Same excuses at the start of last season.

Sorry, we have had a full pre-season and players you've chosen, Mr Koeman have arrived. Five more games and, if we are in the bottom five of the Premier League, then Koeman needs to go.

Everton are paying top dollar for our management team and need better than this. My biggest concern: once behind, we don't look like coming back. Let's not blame the loss of Lukaku. Games like yesterday, it wouldn't have changed the result with him in the team.

Anyone else feeling that expectation of pre-season draining from their body? Still, upwards and onwards; Manchester United next.

Henry Lloyd
59 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:10:40
Koeman Out Now!
Henry Lloyd
60 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:15:58
I have read all the comments from (like myself) some very angry Evertonians. I reference Daniel Lim who has posted several already and I strongly agree with you, Pal.

If there is a way to petition this useless manager then I will do whatever it takes to get rid of him by way of People's Club opinion.

We are the people, we are the Fans!!! Lets make it Loud and Clear that Koeman is not wanted and let's all do it NOW!!

Henry Lloyd
61 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:30:07
Evertonians everywhere understand we played at Goodison Park yesterday and we had one shot on target!! I will say it again so that it sinks in… We had one fucking shot on target!!!

Do I really need to say anything else except Goodbye, Ronald Koeman!

Mike Berry
62 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:30:22
You can't win games unless you're set up to create chances. We are set up to lose!

I can't see Moshiri putting up with this if nothing improves come Christmas.

Also, the fans should let Koeman know exactly what they think of him and his current failings.

Kevin Tully
63 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:39:36
Koeman has spent over £200m since he arrived. Think about that for a moment. He is also paid £6m a season.

There are no excuses when you take those figures into consideration. None. You simply have to produce exciting, winning football and a trophy or two. Otherwise, what's the fucking point?

Steavey Buckley
64 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:45:08
All of Koeman's signings except for Gueye have failed. The only reason why Everton reached 7th place last season was because of one of Martinez's signings, who scored 25 league goals. Then sold for £90 million that Mourinho believes should have cost £150 million in the realities of the new transfer market.

The reason why his signings are failing, Koeman has never to come to terms with the tough mental and physical side of the English Premier League.

Koeman was used to playing in the Dutch and Spanish leagues where players have more time and space on the ball. In the Premier League that's a luxury, where players like Dier of Spurs are waiting to knock someone off the ball as soon as possible.

Andy Crooks
65 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:50:55
Jim Knightley, that is a balanced post. However, I have changed my view on Koeman for the following reasons:

I do not expect us to suddenly become a top four side. I do, though, expect to see the possibility of it. There is not the remotest sign.

I expect to see a motivated squad. They are not.

I expect him to "get" Everton. He does not. He is not an Evertonian and I do not expect him to be. He is a very expensive hired hand and I expect him to at least to show a sense of engagement. He does not.

I have defended him stoutly because I thought all of this would come. It will not, in my view, ever happen. He is done here.

Mike Kehoe
66 Posted 10/09/2017 at 13:56:25
We got beaten by a very good team; they could have scored a lot more and we were shite, absolutely outclassed and we looked hopeless. Koeman shows no class in the defensive focused way he sets up the team and the apparent lack of tactical nous: fucking surprised.

I think all this hysteria is unhelpful though, people reacting with all this talk of sackings does nothing constructive. If he continues with Martina over Kenny and refuses to use the pace, albeit unpredictable and inconsistent, then we should be calling for change but that won't be until the end of the season.

While we have been utterly bereft of ideas, pace and leadership, and it is painful and frustrating to watch, it is still early days: the Mancs endured years of shit before they clicked. Now I'm not saying Koeman is going to be the next Fergie but overreacting just turns you into one of the stupid clubs like Newcastle or Palace.

Of course I'm saying that now, but I will reaching for the pitchfork after the derby.

Andy Crooks
67 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:05:26
Mike, that post is brillant, you have literally damned Koeman with kindness. You have made a case for his defence which is enough to sack him.
Lee Brownlie
68 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:41:16
I never actually thought last season's home form would continue, sadly! Not all those great scoring wins, anyway. We just got away with too much, were under pressure at times even then, but at least always had the belief in ourselves going forward... not there now though, is it?

And I think that was always too likely coming. Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing but that really was a concern for me... between the cheering! Eeven then, that one or two reverse results, performances, at home would knock us right off our Goodison high horse!

I'm feeling pretty sorry for a great player like Davy Klaassen just now, too... he could have stayed with Ajax, been scoring one or two, instead of being just another one of a half dozen players thrown in to chase after the same ball at his new, supposedly step-up club!! Manager, sort it out!!!

Simon Bates
69 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:44:10
It seems to be Koeman whose lost his confidence, rather than the players.

Again, I point back to early last season, away at West Brom, that decisive, ruthless streak appears to have been replaced by stubborn denial, put across as blunt honesty.

He can build winning football teams from scratch, his work at Southampton points to the fact he can do it quite quickly as well. Maybe the pressures of managing Everton are too much.

Both Moyes and Koeman tried to down play the size of the club whilst managing us, hoping that will alleviate pressures self-inflicted by that mindset alone.

Mike Walker admitted the club was bigger than he thought; Walter Smith said the job was bigger than he thought (putting us back up there); Martinez to his credit embraced the club, but was out of his depth.

There is a point, bear with me, the only manager I haven't mentioned during the Premier League era, is the one who walked in saying, "This to me is the biggest club in England." The last manager to win a trophy – Joe Royle.

One of us, who understands Everton.

I think a certain Mr Unsworth may get the best Xmas surprise there is this year!!!

James Lee
70 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:44:15
Maybe we ought to give David Unsworth a chance at first team management in a year or two. It looks like every player wants to play for him. 4-1 to Spurs and Niasse just knocked two in. It's beautiful watching how Unsworth organizes the team.

I can't say that about current senior management, everyone he touches in Everton seems to either get worse by the week (Davies, Schneiderlin, Rooney, Williams, Lookman, etc), wanted to leave the club (Deulofeu, Lukaku, Mirallas, even Barry), or rather rot than play a game with him (Barkley, McCarthy).

Gerard Carey
71 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:46:36
Maybe its the old story, great footballers don't make great managers. Roy Keane didn't cut it, so maybe Koeman is the same. And same bully boy tactics too.
Sean McCarthy
72 Posted 10/09/2017 at 14:57:41
Can people stop mentioning Martinez. This is now undoubtedly Koeman's team. Which is exactly what Moshiri said after the window shut last week. It's a team that has no obvious game plan, is devoid of any pace, lacks a striker, and has more than a few who simply aren't good enough. And surely that's down to Koeman.

I hate the idea that Everton become a "sacking club" but something has to change soon or there may be no alternative to replacing the manager.

People were talking about breaking the Top 4 this season. On the evidence so far, we'll be lucky to finish top half!!

It's time Koeman and Walsh started earning their huge salaries and delivered. If they're not up to it, then let's no waste more time.

Mike Corcoran
73 Posted 10/09/2017 at 15:12:05
Given the club is awash with cash, would it not be prudent to let our manager take a back seat and let someone with a clue take over the 1st team before we end up in a narrow wingless mire. He is approaching incompetent and embracing it.
Andrew James
74 Posted 10/09/2017 at 15:28:54
My problem is his un-swerving blind loyalty to some players and his needless mugging off of others.

Martina was third choice full back at Saints (who finished a sufficient number of points behind us last season despite our lot's dereliction of duty after Easter) so why did we buy him and why does he play ahead of Kenny? It was another example of Koeman being stubborn and complicating what should have been a straightforward issue. He could have brought in Martina but given Kenny a game thus keeping options open and having a barometer to judge Kenny by, but no...

Klaassen has brought nothing thus far. I am not blaming him; the Dutch league is miles off the Premier League now and other Dutch imports have struggled (the striker at Spurs) but yesterday with a pressing Spurs midfield I didn't expect Klaassen – against such a good and aggressive team – to play. I expected to see Davies start because he is box to box and his running, unlike Gana and Schneiderlin, would fend off their press and carry the ball to our forwards.

Also, from a pragmatic standpoint, where was Jags? He's still our best centre half. Williams is 33 so not much younger but played twice in the break for Wales so surely a rested Jags with all his experience and organisation was the better choice?

I also didn't understand why no Calvert-Lewin because the Spurs back three are similar to what City have at the back and Calvert-Lewin was successful against them. He would hopefully create the necessary space up top for a Rooney and / or a Sandro. But no, we had too quite similar players up top that the Spurs defence locked down easily.

Peter Morris
76 Posted 10/09/2017 at 15:58:13
The manager claims that Everton matched Spurs up to their first goal. He must have been at a different game to me. Yes, the opening goal was a fluke, but it was coming anyway. I lost count of the 50/50 balls we lost out on all across the park, and as usual, our distribution was woeful.

Spurs, bigger, stronger and just better players, ruthlessly exploited the holes we left in midfield, turning defence into attack with passes to unmarked players(usually Eriksen, who ran the show). No-one could pick up Alli, and Kane treated Williams like he was an irksome little kid trying to get the ball off him.

Woeful is the only word. No threat in front of goal whatsoever. No energy, no width and no pace. It's going to be a real slog this season by the looks of it.

Christy Ring
78 Posted 10/09/2017 at 17:00:29
Koeman calls for realism; yesterday showed his team has no pace, no width, no striker, and that Klaassen, Rooney and Sigurdsson all play in the one position, not together.

Williams and Martina shouldn't be picked again, that's how real it was.

Paul Kossoff
79 Posted 10/09/2017 at 17:02:58
Kane said himself his goal was not a shot, it was a cross, therefore it can't be a "cross cum shot."

Koeman has a bloody cheek talking about raised expectations, he's on £6 million a year. Did he tell Kenwright, "Don't expect any different from what you had with Martinez, but I want twice what he was on anyway!"

Our former manager is doing a darn site better with his current job than Koeman is with his.

Anthony Hughes
80 Posted 10/09/2017 at 17:07:18
Do you want some realism, Ron? You've spent a shit load of money on a random set of players with no idea what to do with them. Oh and for the pleasure you are being paid a king's ransom to display zero tactical awareness.

It's not us who need to get real, Ronnie boy.

Andy Dempsey
81 Posted 10/09/2017 at 17:33:02
Shite. I told people he would play Sigurdsson out on the flank. Expecting Klaassen, Rooney and Sigurdsson to work playing behind a striker when none of them offer genuine width or pace is something that anyone who understands and loves the game can see will not work.

He keeps picking these unbalanced teams and sky-rockets £6m quid in the process. Why is anyone at all defending this guy?

It's obvious what will happen during the game when you see our line-up beforehand, and that's what happens! Where is this surprise element? What a clown. Clueless, indeed.

Paul Ferry
82 Posted 10/09/2017 at 18:31:42
Steavey Buckley (#64): 'All of Koeman's signings except for Gueye have failed'.

How embarrassingly ridiculous!

Maybe the most bizarre statement I have read in this season of The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Hammer the fraud turnip! Hang him out to dry with his executioner style smile and all that! Martinize him! Speak gleefully and cheerfully about his record since he hung up his clogs!

But don't write utter drivel – 'All of Koeman's signings except for Gueye have failed' – out-bollocks bollocks.

Challenge for yer, Steavey. I do hope you take it up.

Each one of Koeman's – erm, Walsh's? – signings other than Gueye. Go through them and tell us why they 'have failed'.

Stan Schofield
83 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:18:19
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Koeman never accepts responsibility for his tactical cock-ups, he always directs blame to others. Defensive responses to his mistakes, rather than constructive ones. The classic sign of a very shit manager.

And to say that we need a reality check! Cheeky sod, the sooner he's sacked the better.

Gary Heywood
84 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:24:00
If Koeman doesn't buy top class strikers and defenders in January, he has to go.

Two top class strikers (Rooney is past it, Sandro a squad player, Calvert-Lewin will never be good enough)
One top class right-back (Martina is not good enough, Kenny is not ready yet, (uncertain about Coleman's recovery and needs competition)
One top class centre-back (Williams and Jagielka are past it, Funes Mori is a squad defender)
One top class left-back (Baines is past it)

Spurs are nothing special – we just made them look it. No top team in Premier League is special in European terms.

Alan Smith
85 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:24:25
Why is the top 6 now a legitimate target?

I'm sick of hearing about it. The top 4, I can understand because regular top 4 teams pick up trophies. And get the obvious reward of playing in the Champions League.

But top 6? Am I supposed to be pleased by that? A foreign owner, a big-name manager, sell the best striker we've had in 30 years and ruin one of our own homegrown players – all for a chance of top 6?

This is "knife to a gunfight" bollocks.

Michael Burke
86 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:32:06
I normally have splinters stuck in my arse on topics like this as there are always two sides to everything and much we aren't privy to. But Koeman had well and truly managed to shift me off the fence.

In my eyes, it is a very poor leader who deflects blame onto others rather than stands up for his men and takes it on the chin himself. How can the players look him in the eye tomorrow morning and think, "I want to draw blood on Saturday for you"?

I am very worried right now for this season. I had hoped the Europa League games were rustiness. How wrong I was.

Stan Schofield
87 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:37:42
Gary @84: I suspect it wouldn't matter who he signed in January, Koeman hasn't got a clue how to set them up tactically. He might have been a good player, but he's showing himself to be shite as a manager.
Will Mabon
88 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:39:18
"If Koeman doesn't buy top class strikers and defenders in January, he has to go."

He's had that chance – 13 brought in, and plenty spent. He, or other staff, or a combination, didn't or couldn't bring in the most needed players. He's now left with the task of integrating an almost totally new squad of players. Difficult with the best of players at the best of times.

I think he's overreached his own abilities. Bringing in more with Koeman at the helm will now compound the problem, I believe.

Will Mabon
89 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:39:42
Stan - snap!
Oliver Molloy
90 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:42:31
Well at least we are 2nd in the league for something!

For fewest shots on target after four games in fact. 7 shots this team has produced and that tells it own story.

Andy Crooks
91 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:46:09
For many years, our problem, it seems to me, was that we will shoe horn players into any position because we bought them. We have two midfielders who should be on the bench. We have a right back who can't get in the team because the coach prefers picking players who are not right backs.

Koeman was wrong on Niassse, he was wrong on Barkley, he has shown mind-blowing ineptitude in every aspect of his job. Some of the players who might offer hope are out on loan. We are utter shite on and off the pitch. Our new owner is an embarrassment every time he utters a word and behind the scene we still have the appalling Kenwright.

As usual, shite, utter shite, in every possible way. Unsworth, an Evertonian, can save our season. He won't get the chance.

George McKane
92 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:47:26
Went to the game yesterday; got to The Dark House early as normal, people seemed reasonably confident but were saying a point would be good; tough game they said.

After the game, I stayed as normal, chatting football with fellow Blues until around 10:00 pm. The consensus was that Koeman was making dreadful tactical mistakes – pretty down and dark times in The Dark House!

I got home, went to bed and then watched MotD this morning hoping it was a bad dream... no; sadly all true. Then I saw Koeman's interview, saw MotD2 where the panel said he needs time... things need time to work out.

I stayed in all day, a bit tired... grey day – grey clouds, rain, rain, and then around 7:30pm, i looked out of my window over The River – mist and grey clouds... then suddenly a break in the cloud and mist – a little bit of Blue Sky and yes – really – A Rainbow.

Len Hawkins
93 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:47:36
Koeman, if I were you, I'd look for a country that still has Hanging and apply for the Hangman's job because you are brilliant at kicking the stool from under people after you have charmed them on to the gallows.

Bloody hell – is there no-one at Everton FC that can tell the difference between square and round holes and square and round pegs and fit them in the right place.

Soren Moyer
94 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:51:01
Wtf? Does he realy expect the opposition team to reveal their tactics to him before the game!!!? He is a joke.
Peter Laing
95 Posted 10/09/2017 at 19:53:07
I'm sorry but Koeman comes across as an arrogant prick. He was a great footballer but unfortunately this has not transferred across to his managerial abilities and, for £6 million a year, we should be expecting far more from him.

4 games into the season and he is basically saying that we are ill equipped to challenge the top 6 under his stewardship. Well I'm sorry but if his ambition is to finish seventh regardless of his penchant for doses of 'realism' I would rather see Everton dispense with his services.

The football is turgid, his demeanour is casual and to be honest he's here only for the handsome pay check. I personally would give David Unsworth a go – could it really be any worse?

Dave Pritchard
97 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:08:50
Maybe Koeman should try some surprise tactics instead of sending us out to play exactly the same way every time we come up against a decent team. Put Niasse in upfront, play Sigurdsson in the No 10 role, and put a winger in the starting 11.
Trevor Peers
99 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:20:50
Seems as simple as that, Dave @97;

But our Ron just doesn't get it, very frustrating and ultimately doomed to failure if he won't change.

All seems a bit familiar, Roberto also had similar problems trying to change tack.

Stan Schofield
100 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:26:21
It's likely to be dreadful at Man Utd, unless Koeman shows he has tactical ability, which of course is not going to happen. I think we should dispense with his services now, before the Man Utd game, instead of prevaricating like with Martinez.

We don't want to be appointing and sacking managers every five minutes, but something has to be done now, while we're early in the season.

Rob Halligan
102 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:33:51
Yesterday was crying out for a winger, if only to stop Ben Davies having the freedom of Goodison Park, Stanley Park and any other park in the vicinity.

The amount of room he had was unbelievable. If he was told to hog the touchline, then Martina should have kept him company, instead of standing 20-30 yards away from him.

Paul A Smith
103 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:41:03
Realism. Here's some, Ronald:

You have bought a lot of players since you came to the club and I struggle to find more than 1 or 2 that could play for the top sides. This was the gap the club talked about closing.

Combine that with selling your best player to a team that finished 1 place above you but really want to be a top side and its a recipe for more of the same.

What worries me most is when these signings do hit their top level it will be a good level but still not good enough to play top football.

You signed Schneiderlin who couldn't get in United's team when they were 7th. That set the standard for me and although I do believe Schneiderlin can perform better than the static standard he has set lately, he won't be allowed due to cautious, over drilled, non dynamic tactics set by you, Ronald.

Stay tuned for more future Realism.

Clive Rogers
104 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:43:46
Stan (#100), Kenwright didn't want Martinez to be sacked at all, saying he was devastated, and when he was, he wanted Moyes back. So we are probably badly in for a lot more prevaricating.
Paul A Smith
105 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:46:31
Clive (#101) – what would make you throw Vlasic in at the possible champions in such a low-confidence team?

I see him playing Thursday for a spell but hardly see him starting at Old Trafford and especially under Koeman.

Have you seen something I haven't?

Gordon Crawford
106 Posted 10/09/2017 at 20:49:54
Well, it doesn't say anything for the board, after all they appointed him. He was never my choice, but I was willing to give him a chance. But his interviews are getting more and more irritating. He likes to blame everyone but himself. £6 million a year and he is totally clueless.
Ian Kernot
107 Posted 10/09/2017 at 21:05:01
Trying not be be ott but this guy doesn't have it.
No pace, bad marking and no spirit.
Where is the passion, Mr Koeman?
Maybe too early...
Do we need a different manager?
Soren Moyer
108 Posted 10/09/2017 at 21:13:55
Mr Koeman, wipe that grin off your face!
Michael Lynch
109 Posted 10/09/2017 at 21:39:52
I agree with Koeman, we're nowhere near good enough to crack the top six and we have unrealistic expectations if we think we're going to live with the likes of Spurs and Chelsea this season.

Where Koeman and I differ though, is that I haven't been manager of the club for a year, and rebuilt the squad at huge expense with the players I wanted. I haven't picked the system, or the team, or the subs.

I haven't spent months knowing it was up to me to work on replacing both our leading scorer and our leading creator of chances in the close season. Koeman has. He's the reason we're nowhere near good enough to crack the top six.

Laurie Hartley
110 Posted 10/09/2017 at 21:42:25
George @ 92 - "Blue Sky and yes – really – A Rainbow"

After reading about 3244 posts (excuse the poetic license George) on ToffeeWeb since Saturday's debacle I came across one that made me smile.

Genius or madness – one of the two – but I am still chuckling. Welcome to the Incurable Club.

Gavin Johnson
111 Posted 10/09/2017 at 22:00:54
We're crying out for a target man. It's not going to happen until Jan so we better get used to what we have.

Play Calvert-Lewin and Kenny at right-back. Give Lookman more time on the pitch and we'll be fine.

It's easier said than done though, cos I don't see Koeman doing the obvious.

Oliver Molloy
112 Posted 10/09/2017 at 22:05:52
Moshiri appointed Koeman. Kenwright would be very happy to see Koeman get the sack; he don't like his personality one bit.
Rob Dolby
113 Posted 10/09/2017 at 22:08:15
I do understand parts of Koeman's press conference. We want to aspire to be as good as Spurs but can't make the change overnight and that Spurs are as good as Man City.

What I don't understand is that it was obvious after 5 mins our 4-3-3 was being given a lesson. If we are playing a top team I expect us to sit tight with 4-5-1 and defend deep and hit teams on the break. The other major thing is that plan A wasn't working and he changed the faces but not the tactics.

We have the players to make things uncomfortable for top teams at Goodison but I was shocked at how easy they dismantled us and only for a few great saves from Pickford we would have lost 8 -0 and nobody could complain, the 3-0 flattered us.

On paper, we didn't have anyone in our starting 11 who would get in the Spurs team but the game isn't played on paper and players' and managers' attitudes play a big part. When Martina shit out of that tackle on the edge of our box it was awful to witness the reverse effect of when Neville smashed into Ronaldo.

The bare minimum expected is effort and to a certain degree we did get it just that the managers failure to change the system to make it harder for Spurs made the players look amateurish. Holgate and Kenny should be ahead of Martina and it's pretty obvious that Sandro needs to play on the shoulder of the defender and Klaassen needs to be the free man in a 5-man midfield – that's if they play at all.

Michael McCarthy
115 Posted 10/09/2017 at 22:45:20
I hold my hands up and apologise... I was a Koeman fan till he became our manager!

Keane and the keeper are really good additions. The rest much of the same but not as good as we already have in Barkley and our Kev. Both blow hot and cold but is the team better than 12 months ago assuming we had the 2 additions I mentioned. Definitely not.

Davies offers more than our new boys, add Barkley and sack the manager, bring in Unssy and that is not a knee jerk suggestion. Koeman's man-management is zero and without it you are doomed.

Dick Fearon
116 Posted 10/09/2017 at 23:01:16
Tactics change in a split second and managers must instantly react by instituting counter measures.

When the game is ended is not the time to explain where things went wrong. The time for action is when problems were first recognised. eg; It was plain to all except Ronald Koeman that Martina was having difficulty in coping against multiple Spurs players.

Gordon Crawford
117 Posted 10/09/2017 at 23:25:15
Roberto must be having a real chuckle right now. Just not good enough from all involved.
Dennis Stevens
118 Posted 10/09/2017 at 23:26:28
Maybe a change of scene might help – I'd happily swap Koeman for De Boer if we could con Palace into the deal.
Don Alexander
119 Posted 10/09/2017 at 23:58:15
The reality for true fans is that their money compensates total failure by a millionaire manager in affording him a £10mill pay-off, leaving the club with a squad full of players the next lottery-winner/manager doesn't rate or can't motivate, just about every one of those players, and the new ones, being a millionaire minimum before deciding whether or not they're offended or confused by the guy's tone of voice, aftershave or tactics.

Extra training? Practice? Discipline? Effort? Do me a favour – the players' stock answer to that idea is "Call my agent, boss, yer 'avin' a laff!"

Meanwhile, the chairman looks forward to another sale of what remains of his shares, adding way more millions to the £25mill windfall he made when acquiring the initial association with our current major shareholder.

But that guy, Moshiri, won't have made himself a billionaire by backing duds. He'll know what an axe feels like and will have used it many times to get where he is because the one thing guys like that don't allow is for their fortune to diminish on the back of others' under-performance.

Unless they're Ellis Short, Randy Lerner, Mike Ashley and the like of course.


David Booth
120 Posted 10/09/2017 at 00:17:31
It is already looking evident that the only thing that saved us from lower table obscurity or even a relegation battle last year was Lukaku.

Koeman made a proper balls-up managing things with him – this is just the start of our time without him.

Aimless, brainless, clueless, directionless, emotionless, feckless, gormless, hapless football, from a manager who is completely out of his depth – despite his fabulous pedigree as a player.

Where do we go from here?

Brian Porter
121 Posted 11/09/2017 at 00:44:03
Realism? Koeman talks about a reality check, well, here's a dose of realism for you, Mr Koeman.

You are quite simply not up to the task of managing Everton FC. Having spent a lifetime in a business where man-management was a prerequisite, I can honestly say that to get the best out of your team, you will usually need to be first and foremost a great motivator. You sadly appear incapable of motivating shit off a shovel, let alone a team of highly paid millionaire footballers.

Instead of constantly blaming those who work for you, thus demotivating your workforce, you should be taking a long hard look at your own methods of man-management. You are giving a good impression of someone who is out of his depth in his chosen profession.

You are incapable of seeing what is wrong with the way you are setting up your team and your subsequent in-game management shows a total inflexibility when it comes to making clearly needed changes to your tactics and personnel once it becomes clear your initial Plan A isn't working.

I fear that you are a fraud, who can see what's wrong but isn't either man enough or intelligent enough to do anything about it. You seem to be very good at alienating senior members of your squad and you don't hesitate to air your feelings about their so-called failings in public. Whereas a good manager /motivator would talk about these things in private with the individuals concerned, you act like an authoritarian headmaster, airing your feelings about their shortcomings in the public domain.

Before long, nobody will want to play for you and you will be left with a dressing room full of disgruntled, demotivated, demoralised millionaires who cannot make head nor tail of just what you are expecting from them when you are evidently incapable of yourself knowing what the hell to do to put things right.

Very quickly, you've placed yourself in a similar situation to your predecessor, being intractable, inept, intransigent and inflexible in terms of the requirements expected from someone in such a highly paid position, together with the welter of levels of expectations that go with the job. Your predecessor failed in the end because he refused to admit to his own failings and you are rapidly going down that all too familiar path.

Either change or go, Mr Koeman, because at present you are not showing yourself to be worth £6m per year. More like £6 thousand a year if you are lucky!

Your post match press conference came across as making you look like a man who has backed himself into a corner and is blaming everyone but himself in his desperation to find a way out.

By the way, did you know that Niasse hit two very good goals for the U23s today and also provided an assist and Lookman scored one, too? Be brave, take a chance. Nobody would have a go at you if you tried Niasse up front and it failed to be a viable solution to our striker problems but it would show that you are prepared to try all the options available to you and right now, your options are extremely limited.

Don't close your eyes to the possibility that you may have made a mistake in your original assessment of a player. A big man, a real manager should be prepared to admit his mistakes and take steps to correct those errors.

So the final question is, are you man enough, are you big enough to admit to your own mistakes? If so, are you going to do anything about it, and if not, why not?

You are rapidly losing the fans, and I suspect you are not far away from losing the respect of the players and logically the next step will surely see you losing the respect of your employer, and we all know where that will lead, don't we?

Clive Mitchell
123 Posted 11/09/2017 at 01:25:32
Geoff (#42) – bullseye. Spurs warming up looked like 9 Spartan warriors and Kieran Trippier going through their battle preparations; our lot looked like a load of blokes who'd met up at the park after work for a kickabout and were too tired or too relaxed to be too bothered.

Never seen a contrast like that before a game. At half-past-two expectation was dead and hope was fading.

Henry Lloyd
125 Posted 11/09/2017 at 03:57:06
Philip (#57).

"Armchair keyboard Warriors in full Cry"!

Just like you, I have supported Everton for 50 years and proud to do so. Your comment is a little annoying as I am sure you will agree you have never seen a team worth that amount of money (none of us have because we have never had that sort of money!) play at Goodison Park and register only one shot on target.

So, if any of the 'Armchair Keyboard Warriors' out there agree with you, Philip,please correct me if I am wrong.

Henry Lloyd
126 Posted 11/09/2017 at 04:07:02
Brian Porter (#121),

Very good and articulate post, mate. I was very very angry whilst typing mine as apparently I am an 'Armchair Keyboard Warrior'! I think your post covers everything we all need to know and we need change very quickly because Man Utd will absolutely slaughter us based on that pathetic showing against Spurs!

Laurie Hartley
128 Posted 11/09/2017 at 07:57:10
Brian Porter (#121) – sums the situation up very eloquently and accurately. Great post, Brian.
Laurie Hartley
129 Posted 11/09/2017 at 08:29:18
I woke up this morning regretting my post at 110 for two reasons:

Firstly my expression "Welcome to the Incurable Club". My apologies to any ToffeeWebbers or their families who are suffering with an illness.

Secondly to suggest George might be a genius or mad does him a terrible disservice. George ,you are a lover and true to your principles you found a Rainbow.

"In dark days we will always find a bit of light" – you did and do.

May Whoever, or whatever it is that drives you bless you and give you strength for your journey.

George McKane
130 Posted 11/09/2017 at 08:47:37
My goodness, Laurie – no need for any apologies to me... Genius or mad – in today's world, either one is a compliment! And thank you for your Bluetiful sentiments.

Cosmic grooves of course, all the way!

Laurie Hartley
131 Posted 11/09/2017 at 09:16:04
All the way to you too, George.
Michael Lynch
132 Posted 11/09/2017 at 09:22:40
Did anyone see Eddie Howe's interview on MotD? No histrionics, no excuses, no saying how good the opposition was – he just admitted the team hadn't performed, accepted full responsibility, and said it was up to him and his coaching staff to find a way to help the players improve.

Of course Spurs are one of the best teams in the country, I'd love to see us at that level, but that doesn't excuse our performance on Saturday, and it's up to the manager and coaching staff to sort it out.

Paul Withe
133 Posted 11/09/2017 at 09:26:50
Jesus. I was fuming after the game and am still very concerned given the performances so far this season, but some of the comments on here are laughable. Sacking the manager after 4 games? Online petitions to get rid? Relegation battle ahead? Come on, chill out.

If we're in a similar state in November, maybe, but it's 4 games in and 3 of those were against 3 of the top 4 last season. That does show how far we are behind, definitely, but let's judge the team and manager after 15 games...

James Hughes
134 Posted 11/09/2017 at 09:47:36
Just read The Guardian article posted by Clive #2. It is a very sobering read and darkly familiar with what is happening right now.

I would hope Koeman has learnt from his mistakes but it appears he hasn't. Same formation the players can't understand or play and attacking the squad via the press.

I wasn't able to watch the game so my info was from the live forum which is reliable, if somewhat predictable.

Also live text from BBC and for the second game running the comments were that we hadn't turned up. No defence, formation or plan has also been mentioned this season – for once I don't think it is the usual bias.

Koeman seemed reluctant to join us was my feeling when his name first came up. It looked like it was the cash the changed his mind. I still don't think we should ditch him just yet but I am struggling to continue to disagree with Darren's posts.

Jaidee Budsabarati
135 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:01:10
He can buy more players in January to make us proud for a month or less.
Stan Schofield
136 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:18:51
Brian@121: Spot on. In my opinion, there are two basic components of professionalism: Competence and Attitude. Trouble with Koeman is, IMO, he is (as you say) someone who blames everyone but himself, someone who reacts defensively to a problem rather than constructively. That's an attitude problem.

But I also believe he does not possess the competence to do the job. He lacks both competence and attitude. He is not professional. He should be replaced, forthwith, by someone who is professional, because professionalism is what our great club needs.

Clive Rogers
138 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:22:19
Paul (#105), just our lack of width. We are desperate for a proper wide man. Ben Davies destroyed us on Saturday on the left, time after time.

We were told Vlasic can play anywhere across the front line. Also their season has been going longer than ours so he is up to speed and looked good when he came on.

Tony Everan
139 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:32:36
Ronald, it is Mr Moshiri who is expecting top 6 according to his infamous sozzled interview.

And to say you were surprised by their midfield tactics is basically saying "Pochettino is a way better manager than me".

So stop the lame excuses and pick a balanced side, accept some of your signings will be benched.

Paul Smith
140 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:40:29
What odds on Koeman to go, De Boer to stay? Just a thought.
Daniel Lim
141 Posted 11/09/2017 at 10:51:13
Paul @133 – Still don't see the problem?

The problem is not losing, the problem is not only collecting 4 points from 12. What's the problem? If you can't figure out yourself, I can't help you.

And by the way, he's already had more than 50 games to show what he can do.

Pete Wilson
142 Posted 11/09/2017 at 11:28:01
If only we could galvanize this alleged written passion into vocal support at the ground as we used to. It's like a morgue and has been for too long, what happened to the Goodison roar?

I've followed Everton for over 40 years and I've seen more than my fair share of dross as well as some sublime football, however the crowd has in my opinion just got more and more negative.

Yes it's a two-way street, the better display on the pitch you would expect a louder more supportive return from the fans. What about the days when we are struggling and to all intense and purposes we are getting a good hiding? This is when we need to get behind them more than ever. Yes, some of Koeman's team decisions at times are baffling, but that doesn't mean we can't give them a 12th man in the stands.

Any proper football fan should have known Everton always were going to struggle to break into the top six even with all of the new signings. The problem is every team has changed personnel as well, so monetary values of signings won't always equate to instant improvement.

The investment as a club we have made in the future is very promising and only time will tell how the current youth and U23 transfer policies will help us to make that next step. Will it be this season no I'd say highly unlikely, but this is a learning curve and a definite positive step in the right direction.

This is when the expectation and the reality seem to be at polar opposites for some people, with the rest at somewhere in-between. Be realistic – we aren't good enough as a club yet to be challenging as high as we all want to, but the signs of change in the planning are there and I haven't seen it before in my time.

So, yes, am I frustrated too right I am, do I think Koeman has made mistakes? Yes, of course he has., Would we have won the game on Saturday with a change of set-up with the same personnel? We'll never know.

We wanted European football we have it, we want to know how we will perform against our peers, well after Sunday we'll have played five tough Premier League games, three of which will have been away. Manchester City, Chelsea, Manchester United, with Stoke City and Tottenham at home. Getting the squad balance right for these games interspersed with the European games was never going to be easy.

Let's get behind the lads and Koeman because I don't believe for one minute he doesn't want us to win. Yes, mistakes have and will be made again, but this is what we wanted – we are back in Europe so be realistic and enjoy the journey, wherever it takes us. COYB

Kim Vivian
143 Posted 11/09/2017 at 11:53:30
Well, Paul (#140). I see De Boer's been sacked, and I can tell you, through my eyes, what I was saw of them (last half hour plus on MotD2) they seemed to do a hell of a lot more yesterday than we did on Saturday.

A poor decision IMO by Palace. They should have won. It was the players yesterday, not the manager.

Tony Everan
144 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:02:05
Big Sam polishing his brogues as we speak.
Christy Ring
145 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:23:45
I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

The first person sold was Lukaku, and why he wasn't replaced is an absolute disgrace. He scored 25 goals last season; where are the goals going to come from?

The only natural replacement we have is 20-year-old Calvert-Lewin, and he left him on the bench against Spurs. His treatment of Niasse is embarrassing, he has to be in the squad Thursday night.

I'm not a fan of Williams, rubbish on Saturday, he played 2 games for Wales in 4 days; Jagielka was fresh, but didn't play him?

His formation as no shape, no pace, no width. He has to change it Thursday night: give Kenny, Lookman, Vlasic, McCarthy (if fit) a game, and play Niasse and Calvert-Lewin up front – we can't be any worse.

Paul Withe
146 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:33:02
Daniel @141,

I don't recall saying I don't see the problem. The current problems are clear as day. I just don't see how removing Koeman after 4 games this season can be justified.

You quote his previous 50 games; I personally don't think they were that bad – hardly ground breaking or spectacular, and our record in the big games is still very poor, but for me he did okay, given the mess he inherited.

He has to do much more to warrant his huge salary, I agree, and he has made questionable selection decisions, but he (or his team, whichever way you look at it) has brought in some quality players and for the most part under his tenure we've looked solid, fitter and much more like a team than under Martinez.

I argue that he should be given more time before we completely write him off. Otherwise, we end up like Southampton or Palace and replace our manager every season.

Out of interest, who would you replace him with (that would want the job now)?

Things need to improve fast, just having a few shots on goal will help, but for me I'd rather see where we are in November, once things have settled down a bit. That's just me anyway.

Gordon Roberts
147 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:40:35
Pete Wilson (#142).

Nice to read a realistic post.

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it would be madness to get rid of Koeman now, utter madness.

I also feel that ToffeeWeb readers and posters deserve an article from the writers that provides a balanced assessment of the current structure and approach to recruitment at our club (which should also cover the people involved in the negotiations).

Brian Harrison
148 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:44:44
I think calls for his sacking are a bit premature. Although the performances were not great last season I think most thought finishing 7th was acceptable. I have been critical of our performances and with some of his signings but he should be given more time to see if he can get us playing better and start improving the results.

I might remind people that there were a lot of posters on here at the time of Martinez's sacking that wanted Frank de Boer who was sacked after 3 months at Inter and has now been sacked after 4 games at Crystal Palace.

I would be interested to see if any of them now calling for Koeman to be sacked will admit to wanting Frank de Boer. I think it just shows what a hard job managing a Premier League club is. Now, if performances and results don't improve during the season, then I am sure Moshiri will consider his options at the end of the season.

Also, let's not forget, sacking Martinez cost us £10 million – to sack Koeman now will cost us a hell of a lot more.

Nick Armitage
149 Posted 11/09/2017 at 12:52:02
Pete Wilson (#142) – nail on head.

Calling for Koeman's head now is utter madness. Two really bad performances against top drawer opposition is hardly a good excuse for sacking your manager.

Wait until Christmas and see how the team has bedded in.

Stan Schofield
150 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:21:20
Pete @142: I agree it would be nice if the crowd at Goodison gave great vocal support regardless of how the team is performing. It's logical to do it, because it can only increase the chance of the performance improving.

However, all of that is theoretical; what we would like to see rather than the fact of what we do see. The fact is, the crowd doesn't do it, and that's unlikely to change, people being people.

Regarding ToffeeWeb, the opinions on here reflect a different animal from the crowd at Goodison Park. There is a range of posting from knee-jerk to analytical, which of course is an attraction of ToffeeWeb. And the posting can come after suitable reflection, in contrast to the immediacy of a Goodison crowd.

Many of the calls on here to get rid of Koeman are not knee-jerk, being, in my opinion, fairly based on evidence and assessment, and from posters having a record of emphasising a need to give him time. It's certainly not unreasonable to propose that he be replaced, given the apparent issues with his competence in tactics and his approach to man-management, the evidence for which has been accumulating steadily.

I agree that Koeman doesn't set out to lose matches. But that's not the point. The point is about competence and attitude, the two basic components of professionalism, surely required of a £6M/year manager.

Christy Ring
151 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:30:10
Nick (#149) I agree, let's not get carried away. But it's a lot more than 2 bad performances against top drawer opposition.

We created nothing against Chelsea, and Spurs could have scored 4 or 5 more goals on Saturday.

His team selection, no pace, no width – we made Ben Davies look like Gareth Bale, he had so much space, it was embarrassing.

He has to take the blame – not bullshiting us about a reality check.

Kim Vivian
152 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:34:38
If we can take it for granted that we are not going to set the world alight in the league this season, and presuming we can keep away from a relegation scrap (God forbid), then this term could be used as a sort of extended preseason to next season. Try out the brighter elements of Unsy's squad a bit at a time and see what if anything gels. I have not watched the U23s personally (I would if I lived closer) other than highlights, goal clips etc. but the same names seem to crop up repeatedly.

One would assume that there must be communication between Koeman (or at the very least Dunc) and Unsworth, and surely these blokes must exchange ideas and views. Is Koeman so intransigent that he will not accept critique or embrace the ideas of anyone else? I know it is a given that a first team coach these days must be pretty thick skinned but the evident stubbornness of our last two managers is somewhat irritating.

I am not screaming "Koeman Out" yet, and there is no way that is going to happen anytime soon, however loud we shout, but have been somewhat reticent ever since his first announcement if I'm honest with myself, despite being excited by his prospect, in true blue tinted fashion.

We have had a couple of demonstrations of what we can produce since the start of last season – as indeed we did under Roberto Martinez – but those disappointingly would appear to have been flashes in the pan, because what we are witnessing right now has been evolving for months and months – not just this season.

It is true that Lukaku's goals themselves in simplistic terms did not affect our league position but undoubtedly his presence on the pitch, even on his sulky days, occupied opposition defences allowing us to produce from other areas. It is inexcusable that we simply do not have anyone on our books who can provide that for us now other than perhaps Calvert-Lewin.

A Benteke, Giroud, Dembele, Llorente (will he ever get a game for Spurs?) might not have produced the same wealth of goals but they would have been that figure to distract and occupy opposition defenders, and indeed aim for. All our team right now sit in midfield and seem to give the impression they will be fined if they stray into the opposition penalty area or, horror of horrors, try a shot from range. We must be so easy to defend against.

The next four games will tell us much I think. An unknown quantity to some degree in Italy, a tough game away at Old Trafford, what should be straight-forward progress in the league (or whatever it is) cup and a banker for three points against Bournemouth. The latter are under-performing just now and Sod's Law – they will start to turn it around at Goodison on the 23rd, and if it all turns to shit over the next 12 days (and we must win at least two out those four games) the fallout doesn't bear thinking about.

I would love to see what Unsworth could do with the players on our books but it isn't going to happen anytime soon, I think, even fearing the worst over the next couple of weeks, so as fans we have to try and stick right behind Koeman and just hope he can work with what he's got, listen to his colleagues and get things back in tune.

Paul A Smith
153 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:43:42
Nick (#149). When was the last good (not even great) performance under Koeman? I am going to be totally honest I can't remember.

We all have different standards obviously. I wouldn't sack him for bottling against 10 men City or bending over for Spurs and Chelsea. I would sack him for the calibre of player we have signed. And Walsh.

Tom Bowers
154 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:49:34
Koeman made an unacceptable blunder for Saturday's game. If they were not prepared for the Chelski game after the long Euro trip then there was no excuse for the Spurs game.

It was a game on paper Everton may not have won anyway but the performance was diabolical. No intensity, no plan, no confidence and no problem to Spurs at all.

Gueye, Klaassen and Sandro should be dropped for starters for the Man Utd game.

Chris Williams
155 Posted 11/09/2017 at 13:58:36
I see there is a possibly significant development today in the business structure of EFC.

Moshiri is announced as a Person with Significant Control (PSC) on the Companies House website. Among other things this gives him the power under company law to exercise influence over the running of the club and the right to remove members of the board of directors.

Interesting that this should happen now, and it will be interesting to see the impact on the make-up of the board, especially with rumours of Kenwright vetoing the signing of a striker for example.

It means, as far as I understand it, he can now more easily legally intervene in the affairs of the board in the day-to-day running of the club, without operating as an illegal shadow director, as per good old Sir Shifty was rumoured to do, or intervene as a shareholder with the rigmarole that that can entail.

I'm a bit rusty on Company Law these days!

Watch this space I guess.

James Watts
156 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:00:55
Nah... means nothing, Chris (#155). He hasn't brought anymore shares. Nothing has changed. He already qualified for that status anyway. Guess it was just an admin update.
Clive Rogers
157 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:06:21
Tom #154, personally I'd keep Gueye in before Schneiderlin at present who seems very sluggish this season. The main candidates for the chop must be Martina and Williams surely. Agree about Klaassen and Sandro though.
Soren Moyer
158 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:28:22
Could be paving the way for Usmanov!
Andy Riley
159 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:34:39
I heard something about a fallout between Ronald Koeman and David Unsworth over Koeman not considering Jonjoe Kenny. Not sure if it's accurate but I understand Koeman didn't take kindly to David expressing an opinion without being invited!
Mat Smith
160 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:43:00
As many others have stated, I'd like to see him actually play players in their correct positions and play a team with balance.

Rooney, Sigurdsson, Sandro and Klaassen should not all be starting together – they proved against Spurs it just did not work; we looked lost, had no idea of who had what role and there was just no outlet

I think a max of two of those players should be on the pitch at any given time unless he plays only one defensive midfielder and Klaassen plays alongside him.

The team I'd like to see on Thursday would be:

Pickford
Martina, Jagielka, Keane, Baines
Gueye, Davies
Lookman, Sigurdsson, Vlasic
Calvert-Lewin

Jim Knightley
161 Posted 11/09/2017 at 14:45:40
Paul - sorry but that is a ridiculous statement. The kind of emphatic short-sighted singularity that will not get a club anywhere.

How can you assess our buys... just 4 games into the season? Especially when the majority of them are 21 or younger! On top that of that, Gueye, Lookman and Calvert-Lewin look to be great signings.

Koeman is letting us down with his tactics but these threads are becoming hotbeds of idiocy. Someone is apparently convinced Spurs won't win anything this season too – if only we had this poster's crystal ball.

We are all unhappy with Koeman but he needs time before we can determine his lot with certainty – the signings, many of whom are 21 or younger, need longer yet. We cannot know what they will become 4 games into season, during which we played the top 3 from last season.

Imo, give Koeman until the next international break (early November). If we are poor then then, put Unsworth in change to assess him and potential replacements.

Paul A Smith
162 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:02:56
Jim, I am afraid to say I don't care about your diplomatic love in. The signings to me are grim. Most anyway.

Schneiderlin for instance who you lot love like he is Peter Reid the 2nd. How are Man Utd that stupid they sell him when they are 7th to us with no battle from any other club. Why? Because we are 7th now and he cannot play to a higher standard than that. He can play better though no doubt.

We needed players that are ready now, not in 5 years. I am also sick of your Under-23s shout its ridiculously boring. I don't have an Under-23s season ticket. While you're being brilliantly patient, this club needs wins now. How many have we won since March, Jim?

We have not bought anyone that can get into a top 4 side. Maybe Pickford. The kids, who we hardly see but for some reason you keep referring too, are not ready... so answer this Jim:

If we don't win anything within 2 years and Davies or Lookman are looking great and Man Utd and Man City want them... What happens?

We need results from very, very well-paid people, now!

Eddie Dunn
163 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:15:37
Last season, we had an easy opening set of fixtures and collected some useful points. If anything, the good start raised our expectations, and after a few ups and down,s we tucked in in a respectable seventh place.

We have managed to offload some deadwood from the playing staff, but also, we have loaned out some useful options. The quality of player is arguably better than last season, but the big difference is losing Lukaku without someone who is even likely to score half of his goals.

Many others have also pointed out the lack of balance. One of the most annoying traits of Martinez was his playing people out of position, and it seems that Koeman is doing the same. Good sides have good balance. This side is a work in progress.

I would suggest that Rooney was brought in, in an attempt to placate the fanbase with the impending departure of Lukaku in mind. Koeman was obviously under the impression that his choice, Giroud, was in the bag, and Ronald happily jetted off to catch some rays confident in his board/Walsh making the deal. Imagine his surprise when the Frenchman's lady decided to put the copper nail in the deal.

It is a massive fuck-up. Someone got the wrong end of the stick funny really, just like with Barkley's transfer to Chelsea/Spurs. Communications are obviously not great at EFC. You can't blame all of this on deadline day chaos – the said deal had been mooted in the media for weeks. The whole thing undermines the start of the season.

Rooney hasn't helped matters, and looked out of sorts on Saturday. However, even considering that Koeman has been let down by his board, the recruitment of so many number tens is baffling. The insistence of playing Rooney as well as Sigurdsson & Klaassen is also strange. Rooney is a big name, and Ronald is afraid of upsetting him, so others are sacrificed.

Tactically we remain in the Jurassic period, when other sides have moved into the Cretaceous. I have hope that, once we play some ordinary sides, the team will improve and greater understanding will develop, but the trip to Old Trafford will surely mean yet more misery and the sight of our former Tyrannosaurus running riot against our slow, leaf-munching defence.

Andy Meighan
164 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:23:31
Oliver (#112),

How do you know that Kenwright doesn't like Koeman's personality? If he doesn't like him, surely he'd be pressing to relieve him of his duties, even this early on in the season.

Last time I looked, Kenwright was still chairman. After all, Palace have sacked De Boer today, only 4 games in, and while at the moment, we're not that bad, we aren't that far behind them.

Stop speculating about things you've no idea about. You know as much as the next fan on here about the running of the club, ie, zilch.

Jim Knightley
165 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:30:11
Paul - if you think we can challenge the top 4 by buying players of their level...then you don't understand football. Why did we lose Lukaku? Because he wants to play for a Champions League club. Do you think we could have brought Salah? Or Mendy? Or Bernardo? How do you think a club that has finished 11th, 11th, and 7th in the past three season's is going to attract Champions League quality players. Ridiculous.

Thank fuck people as short-sighted as you are not in charge of our football club. Our only chance of bridging in the gap is investing in top youth talent, who will have an effect on our club in the next 2-3 years and beyond.

Pickford, Onyekuru, Davies, Holgate, Lookman, Vlasic have the ability to become top 4 players. Did Spurs make the step overnight? No – they did it through the emergence of several big youth talents with the team and tactics to sustain them. That has to be our model, and we may need a better manager to do it. Spurs did try to buy looks of talents at one point in time – and they brought a lot of inferior players, and needed Pochettino to transform them into a sustainable and progressive team.

We don't need impatient day--dreaming and toys being kicked out the pram and signings judged 4 league games into the season. It's embarrassing.


Paul A Smith
167 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:39:09
Toys out of pram. You are pathetic Jim. I am 36 and we haven't won anything since I was in school. Go and clap the stadium plans, mate. You know one way of trying to join the best clubs, tell the sides like Man Utd who finished 6th they can't have him.

Go on, tell me he wanted to go. Will your grandkids be so patient in 15 years when we still can't buy top 4 players?

Throwing toys out of prams. Are you a PE teacher... The lack of success we have had and snobs come out with shit like that.

John G Davies
168 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:47:35
The realism is: we didn't have a shot on target.

Not good enough.

Inexcusable.

Tony Everan
169 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:51:19
Too early for the sacking bandwagon to start rolling.

Bournemouth and Burnley at the end of the month will be crucial fixtures at home.

Make no mistake – if the same side/attitude shows up as on Saturday, we won't be winning them games either. But it is a good opportunity to gain some momentum and confidence.

Also I'm hoping for some sort of response and a better balanced team against Man Utd on Sunday. Win, lose or draw, I want to see motivation and passion for 90 mins.

Pete Clarke
170 Posted 11/09/2017 at 15:52:00
I also think the calls for Koeman’s head after 4 games is ridiculous. He should be given 4 more and that’s it if no improvement .

What transpired on Saturday was the work of an ameteur and his excuses after the game show his lack of respect for his team and the club in general.

With this midfield mentality of defend, defend, defend can anybody tell me who is going to pick the ball up and move us forward!

Got a feeling Klassen will come good and he can’t surely do worse than Schneiderlin for a game or two.
Tom Bowers
171 Posted 11/09/2017 at 16:02:56
Everyone is pissed at the moment and rightly so. Even the RS getting hammered is very little compensation. We all have our opinions and most seem to agree about certain players not up to snuff.

Most teams play the possession game, some to contain a better opponent and get one point at least and others who are good sides because they have a superior offensive outlet to use in order to win the game. Everton fall into neither of these categories at present.

It's hard to see what Koeman's strategy is. Basically the whole team played way below par against Spurs and that was totally unacceptable for a home game in front of the faithful.

Jim Knightley
172 Posted 11/09/2017 at 16:17:42
I'm pathetic – says the man sing phrases like 'diplomatic love in', and deciding that all of ToffeeWeb 'love' Schneiderlin like he is Peter Reid. Bizzare assertions and logics that pervade belligerent posts.

Answer me this – when have I brought up the stadium plans? How does my criticism of Koeman but plea for a realistic long term strategy constitute a love-in? Does it make it easier arguing against the fictional ideas you create than the genuine ideas espoused?

And why on earth would you follow the logic that Schneiderlin is not good enough because he didn't play in a team that finished above us. Seriously?! You are 36 not 10. You remember Lukaku right? That Belgium striker insulted by some impatient naysayers because he wasn't good enough for Mourinho at Chelsea? Or Arteta? He must have been bad, because he couldn't make it at top teams and no one else came in for him.

There are a string of recent Everton players, better than several of those in our squad and team atm, that prove how illogical that point is. Can we stop spouting such rubbish on these forums?

And I'm 30, so it would be quite a stretch to see grandchildren in 15 years. Still, I expect I'd see grandchildren before I see you coin a properly nuanced, considered, and intelligent post.

Btw – I wonder what would have happened to Leicester, if they had decided to sack Walsh when they were struggling in 2015? Because apparently some of his signings hadn't come off yet.

Get a grip.

John Roberts
173 Posted 11/09/2017 at 16:22:24
Tony, spot on, passion at least we expect – especially at home in front of a full house. Someone posted we have had 4 efforts on target in 4 games! I've watched the 8 games so far this season and I am truly gutted at how ineffective we look going forward.

We've been lucky too. A deflected Baines goal; Sigurdsson a one-in-a-million goal... so disappointed.

John Pierce
174 Posted 11/09/2017 at 16:30:09
Jim (#165).

Whilst long term investment can be prudent I cannot agree we bought top, top talent. Otherwise they'd be in the first XI.

The plethora of U23 signings and academy products are there in the main to make a profit. Look back and see how many actually make it out of our academy (rumoured to be one of the best) and become a star. Not many.

It's just a investment strategy as the mark up on young players is very good. Sure we might get one come through.

Of the first team squad players you mention, I'd be surprised if more than one has a stellar career to match your idea of bridging the gap. Just numbers, Jim, sadly, just maths.

Most not all, but most players of the calibre we seek are that good from day one. It is a globalised world which has radically affected the premier league, a plan of which you speak is largely redundant. It has to be in the here and now. It's often more efficient to rip it all up and start again than fix, or improve or bodge what you have.

Sorry, Jim, I think that train of thought is dated. And for the record I too used to think along the same lines as you.

That's just one of the reasons Everton are so far behind other teams. Outdated thinking. For example replacing a manager this early might seem anathema to many Evertonians but it is conventional & romantic. Not business by-words to live by.

For my money, there is a strong team in there amongst a very unbalanced squad; this manager, however, is not the solution. Time to rip it up and start again.

Eddie Dunn
175 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:05:19
Very interesting, John. On a day when De Boer got the boot after 4 defeats.

Indeed the extra money flooding into the game gives the clubs the chance to pay off the contracts of managers who have a bad run. A few years back we would have baulked at paying off the salary of managers early into their contracts.

The exposure of the Premier League on a global level not only attracts players to come to us (whatever they say, they are then in the shop window to the biggest clubs), it also attracts managers who are also on the career ladder.

Our very own Dutchman simply cannot help but mention his beloved target of one day being manager of Barca!

It is perhaps cynical to suggest that the hoovering-up of under 20's talent to play in our teams , is simply to cash-in on them, and some of them will make the grade.

However, what is perhaps worrying is the net spend in the transfer market. We obviously missed the main target but the Barkley deal was an attempt by the club to get in more money which perhaps was earmarked for the Giroud deal.

Despite the Sky money and our new shareholder, funds are not being pumped into the team . I know that huge sums are needed for wages and running costs too, but we certainly are not spending anywhere near the amounts of the top 4 teams.

For all of the media bluster about our early shopping, the harsh reality is plain to see. The team has a plethora of decent pros, a few promising youngsters one or two over the hill but is lacking in pace and power as well as width.

Koeman seems honest when it comes to apportioning blame for our defeats but always fails to hold his hand up and admit his tactical flaws or poor team balance.

Perhaps we will scrape by till the January window, with Calvert-Lewin and Sandro and all of our number tens. Then we might pick up a decent target man. However our failure in the market may well mean an exit from the Europa and us losing too much ground in the league, so that we won't be such an attractive destination for our much needed centre forward.

Paul A Smith
176 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:10:35
Right, so we have bought 'mostly' as I am told, Under-23s. Great. Who do they play for? The Under-23s. Unless the magic in football falls on Everton and 7 of these players become stars at the same time, they are just profits or throw aways.

I asked the question about Tom Davies if we don't win anything and Man Utd fancy him. Or any other Under-23 for that matter. Do we say "You're staying here and being patient"?

I have seen nothing in my time to suggest signing Under-23s that are not good enough yet is the way forward. It's bizarre, in fact.

And to praise Steve Walsh for Leicesters choice of player means nothing to us. He still hasn't signed anyone for us better than Vardy. How many Under-23s play in Koeman's team? Is there a list of all the shite Walsh signed for Leicester?

If this all turns out to be a fantastic 3-year plan, I will hold my hand up and say I was too harsh but I doubt I will have to.

Thank you, John Pierce. It is outdated. Man City didn't waste time doing that did they?

That's the frustration. If you are trying to build and can't sign class, keep the class you already have.

Andy Meighan
177 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:14:34
Eddie, I agreed with most of your post. But how has Koeman been let down by the board? He's smashed the transfer record and spent big on other players.

Okay, he recouped a lot of it back with the Lukaku sale but he's spent a lot of money on what at this moment (Pickford and Keane apart) look like ordinary players. The only person who has let Koeman down is Koeman himself.

Rudi Coote
178 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:18:59
The U23s win their league and are ignored by this failure of a manager, who insists on playing pensioners and misfits. These young players will jump at the chance of playing for another club. I mean why wait? It's a short career. We will lose our best and soon.
Soren Moyer
179 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:20:16
Wow! So, if we beat Bournemouth and/or Burnley at home, everything is good then! Have this club now sunk so much?
Brian Harrison
180 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:21:58
Rudi,

I think in fairness to Koeman, he has played Tom Davies, Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Ademola Lookman.

Christy Ring
181 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:23:35
I was expecting a huge push after finishing 7th last season. We spent about £150m in the window (not including sales). The sad thing is, we're definitely weaker.

We can go on and on about Rooney, Klaassen and Sigurdsson, everyone knew except Koeman they all play in the one position. He was adamant he wanted Sigurdsson, it took 4 weeks to finally get him.

He had the whole summer to replace Lukaku – not the last day of the window.

Greg Hasbrouck
183 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:23:58
There's a sports adage that says, “You're never as good as you think you are when you win; and you're never as bad as you feel when you lose.” I suspect that's the context we need to view the team through in this moment. We've played 4 matches. We were expected to win only one of those matches. We won that match and stole a point in another.

Anyone who thought we were going to put 8 brand new faces out on the pitch and immediately look like a cohesive unit was being unrealistic. I wouldn't expect 8 new players to look cohesive if they were playing teams at the bottom of the table, but much, much less against Champions League caliber squads. I think the only fair criticism is the lack of pace up front. Not addressing that was a failure. Bolasie will hopefully remedy that somewhat.
Tony Marsh
184 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:34:44
I think we are well and truly done for if this season's performances and signings are anything to go by. The biggest problem we have is Kenwright doesn't do sacking. Koeman will still be here if we end up in the bottom 3 at Christmas.

I don't think we could afford to pay Koeman off either. Is Koeman the highest paid manager in the world or something silly like that?

Let's assume we did a Crystal Palace and pressed the eject button on Ronald Koeman, the new guy would be stuck with a load of crap to work with. Unsworth needs to be brought in as he knows the club inside out. Unsworth could integrate the Under-23s with the main squad also.

It really is a grim thought to think of Koeman staying here, destroying morale and the promising young players we have at the club. This is the Everton FC we are all used to, isn't it? Crush the fan base at every turn with shite managers, false promises and clueless running of the club. Thanks Bill – you're a legend.

Paul A Smith
185 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:45:05
Some 30-year-old perspective too, Jim. Chelsea were not 6th like Man Utd were they? Lukaku was 19. They did what we need to do now. Forget youth and buy ready made players.

Arteta we bought from Real Sociedad and, yes, he was rejected by Barcelona. I wonder how poor a side they were when he was rejected at the biggest club in the world?

A whole world of difference from Schneiderlin who played in Man Utd's worst team in years and couldn't oust a 35-year-old Carrick before being sold.

They don't rest on laurels. For us, it's Schneiderlin, he's good. He will do in that role for at least 3 years. Let's buy some kids that can replace the likes of him.

Again, I believe it's now or never to throw yourself into the big pond. By the way, I don't doubt for a minute the tactics you pointed out are a factor and these players can perform better but I still think there was an easier route than 10 kids. 10 ready made and sell your best.

We could have halved that total and bought 3 players of at least Sigurdsson's quality.

Jay Harris
186 Posted 11/09/2017 at 17:50:31
Jim, I totally agree with much you say.

There appears to be more afoot than Koeman selections and tactics, bad though they are at the moment,to me.

I have a feeling that Martinez and Kenwright had given Lukaku an undertaking that he could leave this summer and not all was revealed to Koeman.

I also wish to correct those suggesting that Koeman failed to replace Lukaku. I bet he wished he had that authority and I'm sure we would have ended up with a top quality centre-forward. As it was the decision making and negotiations were left with Billy boy and we all know how that went.

For the record we lost Kone, Valencia and Lukaku and only brought in Sandro. Why we couldn't have brought a fall back guy like Defoe or Chris Woods or Llorente in puzzles me.

Steavey Buckley
187 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:01:47
If Everton keep playing like they did against Spurs all season, they are in real trouble. The first thing Everton must do in all matches is dominate midfield, by not allowing the opposition to settle for one minute. Players like Besic, Gueye and McCarthy are far more important than Schneiderlin and Klaassen, because they are in the faces of the opposition.

Yes, Everton can play as many midfield players all over the pitch but they have to be aggressive not pussyfooting around as they were last Saturday.

Eddie Dunn
188 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:08:15
Jay, Llorente had Spurs and Chelsea to chose from.
Garry Corgan
189 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:12:05
Careful, Ron. Patronising knowledgeable, passionate supporters after a bad result is usually the first step on a slippery slope to the exit door.
John Pierce
190 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:18:13
Eddie (#175).

It not cynical to suggest a player academy which is there to create profit. Because I think the club are being exactly that.

The model is well embedded in a club like Chelsea. Much maligned and rightly so, I think it's stunting football to hoover up potential and, once it's established they won't make it, sell with a decent mark up.

Everton are following suit, as the market and regulations allow it.

Even relatively small fry make for good profit, crucially that player trading profit sits outside FFP.

Take Calvert-Lewin, bought for c £1M, let's say he doesn't make it with Everton. His re-sale will easily be around £10M. That's £9M we can funnel back into wages and transfers.

If Everton are as ambitious as they say (I'm not sure they are based on a poor window), then they will ask Koeman to go on a golfing holiday, permanently.

Paul Smith
191 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:30:43
It's true Garry.

I don't go in for the "we're Everton, NSNO, we are a breed apart" and the like. However, one thing I am sure about the Everton fans is they detest bullshit (it did for Martinez in the end).

Honest Ron is in in danger of loosing his tag whilst patronising the fan base with his dishonest appraisals.

Phillip Warrington
192 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:34:17
He is the one who has signed the players!, Christ, if they are not good enough to compete with the top 6 then why sign them? The way he is going, he will turn Everton into another Leeds. He has to go.

Here is a manager who has spent probably triple than any manager before him and has already decided the team is not good enough to compete with the top six. No chairman should allow a manager to keep coaching a team when he has already conceded.

Laurie Hartley
193 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:35:05
Spot on Steavey @ 187 – that midfield would at least show some aggression (as opposed to productivity).

Also, of all the players who took part on Saturday, how many are capable of winning their share of arial duels? I can come up with two, maybe three and none of them are forwards.

Someone at the club spent £150m on new players – surely they could have spent a few quid on a player who can head the ball.

The Spurs centre-backs must have thought it was Christmas on Saturday and we are going to the Land of the Giants next week.

Paul Ferry
194 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:42:17
Oliver Molloy – 112: .'Moshiri appointed Koeman. Kenwright would be very happy to see Koeman get the sack; he don't like his personality one bit'.

Oliver this is the second time in a week that you have made a huge claim – actually claims last time – without a single shred of support apart from the usual suspect – someone I know and I can't give you their name.

This would seem to be something that you like to do.

So, can you now give us in convincing chapter and verse exactly how you know that Kenwright "does not like Koeman's personality one bit"?

Alan Smith
195 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:44:50
Jim Knightley,

I think it's you that is being ridiculous. You should not need a crystal ball to realise that Lookman, Calvert-Lewin, etc, are not going to be as good as Lukaku, Barkley and Stones. And if they happen to have some massive improvement they will be sold anyway.

I like how you gloss over losing top-quality players and don't mention the poor signings of Williams, Martina, and Stekelenburg. Give Klaassen and Sandro time, I agree, but shouldn't we have players in who could play now?

Some nutters on here probably think Schneiderlin is better than Fellaini as well. What a dog he is. Williams, Schneiderlin, Bolasie, and Stekelenburg have all had time. Explain them signings to me.

Sigurdsson ain't gonna pull up any trees either and he's the best player, Rooney excluded, to play now, today.

I'd like to win games now – not grow players for other teams. Arsenal have been building for years – it never happens... and we are buying worse than them.

Brent Stephens
196 Posted 11/09/2017 at 18:56:53
It seems there's no shared analysis of the cause of our problems. So no shared solution(s). For some, the problem is Koeman (with varying views as to who could replace him, and when). For others it's Walsh. Others say it's Bill. And then we get the various combinations from those three.

For some, the problem is putting those selected in wrong positions. For others it's the tactics used with those selected. For others it's selection: either this or that individual from the first team squad should be played instead of some other(s); or it's let's get more U23s in (Feeney, Baningime, Jones etc). For others it's who's been bought. For others it's a question of time.

And, of course, varying combinations of the above. Interesting threads, if nothing else.

Have I missed any factors in this "simple" problem? Oh for the wisdom to identify the causes and answers. I'm resigned to several more months of Koeman, though I wonder if selection and tactics will change. Bumpy ride!

Martin Mason
197 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:01:08
I really don't believe that the decision-making and all of the negotiating process for all transfers were done by Kenwright.

He's a good target for when things go wrong but the reality is that he is a minority shareholder and from what I read only helping out with the transfer to the new ownership team. He's a luvvie not a business negotiator.

If there is a target for responsibility in transfer dealings, then it is Walsh who is Director of Football.

Phil Walling
198 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:08:09
Ironic that the only world beater to come up through our ranks this century is now playing for the Club in his old age. Once an Evertonian?
Colin Glassar
199 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:08:16
Martin, it's being reported in the media that Kenwright may have blocked the signing of a striker due to "financial reasons". And who's to stop him if our bloody manager was away playing golf?

Now he may be a minority shareholder but I believe he continues to run the club on a day-to-day basis and he is still in charge of transfers. Love him or hate him, he's still pulling the strings at Goodison.

Brent Stephens
200 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:14:48
Phil (#198) "Ironic that the only world beater to come up through our ranks this century is now playing for the Club in his old age".

Unlike all those of other Premier League clubs who've produced their own home-grown "world beaters" this century, such as... – well I'll leave you to give us that long list (I know, they're all in that great England side, I just can't remember their names).

Gavin McGarvey
201 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:16:24
Whilst I agree that our problems are not simple, I can't help but think that the lack of a striker is the key to them. Ever since the days of Sharpe and Gray, I have seen the club stumble along without a strong forward line. Admittedly Cottee wasn't too bad, but apart from that, we have got a season or so out of the better strikers who have been on our books.

What has been even more depressing, is that when we did find one in Lukaku, we couldn't hang onto him. Not only that, but a lot of fans were happy to see him go, because he was 'lazy' and he only scored 'easy' goals. How many top half clubs would have sold their main striker without buying in another? Not many.

Brent Stephens
202 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:18:28
Gavin, quite right. I missed that obvious one to add to the list!
Phil Walling
203 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:19:02
If Bill really has the final say on transfers he may well have done the Club a favour given that the target was almost certainly of a similar standard to the other 'no-marks' this window threw up.

Just goes to show money isn't everything. It all depends whose spending it!

Colin Glassar
204 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:23:40
Who was this 'no-mark' striker, Phil?
Brent Stephens
205 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:27:42
I have no idea but one possibility is that, while Moshiri is the effective owner, Bill exercises negative power.

So, Koeman identifies what he wants (either he already has a name, or he asks Walsh to identify somebody who meets the spec) and hands the name to Bill to then negotiate a deal (given free rein to do so by Moshiri).

For whatever reason, Bill might not fancy said name and argues that "I tried my best but Arsenal didn't want to part, or the player didn't want to come, or I couldn't get the price down").

Pure speculation... but as everybody else is speculating...

Phil Walling
206 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:28:53
No doubt someone from Southampton, Colin!
Gordon Roberts
207 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:48:23
Apologies if the below link has already been posted


https://royalbluemersey.sbnation.com/2017/9/11/16280756/moshiri-documents-filing-person-significant-control-everton-kenwright-blocked-transfers-barton

Raymond Fox
208 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:49:21
Eddie (#175), good post.

My own feelings on the situation are that Koeman is more a hindrance than a help and I think the sooner he's departed the better.

I do believe though that too many don't want to admit, that the main reason that we have not won a trophy of any description for 20+ years is because our first eleven and others in our squad are simply (with the odd exception) not of the quality required to push our way regularly into the Premier League top 6. A cup is a possibility if we were to draw lucky and string a few above average performances together, but we haven't even managed that.

It's a bitter pill to swallow but they have the power to attract top players and the power to outspend us that we just cant match. Unfortunately, I can't see much changing soon.

Clive Rogers
209 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:49:41
Martin (#197), it was reported in the press at the start of the window that EFC had assembled a largish team to deal with transfers, headed by Kenwright.

Also Koeman was quoted as saying that when he queried the Sigurdsson transfer deal, that Kenwright had told him he had to be patient and progress was being made.

Kenwright certainly seems to be in charge of transfer deals, which was also stated shortly after Moshiri took over.

Martin Mason
210 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:53:58
Colin, "may" is a very weasel word that we must be careful of using. I could believe that Kenwright made a recommendation not to pursue a given striker option but not that he was able to block anything. If it were a case of no deal being worse than a bad deal then I'd also support that. I believe that we threw away a lot of money on very average players last window and more bad money would have compounded that.

Saying that Kenwright pulls the strings still at Everton and is therefore the problem is for me far too simplistic and just gives an easy route in the blame game. Everton is a club in trouble, possibly at war with itself; poor decisions on transfer targets (Walsh's domain), poor tactics on the field (Koeman's domain), and lack of leadership from the top (Moshiri's domain) are all potential reasons.

If Bill is responsible for negotiations then it is for players selected by others and he has no influence on how they play. I don't see how being responsible for transfer negotiations, even if true, can make Kenwright responsible for buying bad players or naïve tactics on the field. If he's guilty of anything it is only in overpaying for average players but perhaps that is what happens when you buy early?

Fine to apportion blame when it is appropriate but whatever happens, Kenwright will be the Bogey Man for some. In this instance I'm not sure. Looking back I believe that Moyes actually did well with limited resources but that we have made 2 disastrous choices in Managers. Martinez set in motion a rot that Koeman seems to be continuing. It's not a case of "we could be in trouble"... we are IMHO in deep trouble now.

Do we bay for sacking at this point or should we remember how dreadful Kendall and Ferguson did for at least 2 years? I have no answer, Colin.

Colin Glassar
211 Posted 11/09/2017 at 19:55:32
Moyes, Martinez and Koeman have all said Kenwright is the transfer Czar at Goodison. And they all love(d) him apparently.
Michael Hulse
213 Posted 11/09/2017 at 20:07:05
Walsh as the 'Director of Football' is in charge of this club as any director in any firm is; however, there's no doubt everything has to be checked over and signed off by mosh or bill.

The main problem with the club at the moment is there is no philosophy implanted into this team. We aren't a possession-based side because 51% possession at home clearly shows that isn't the strength. We can't have a long ball philosophy because we don't have a target man. We definitely aren't a counter-attacking team because we don't play pace or power. To me this is the main problem.

Walsh at Leicester, it was very clearly what they where, they where a counter attacking team. Knowing that must make it easier for them to identify their targets and bring them in.

If Walsh isn't in charge of this football club as being a 'director', I would like somebody to tell me what he actually does.

Mark Morrissey
215 Posted 11/09/2017 at 20:13:32
My thoughts on Koeman's tenure so far are as follows :

He brought Stekelenburg to the club, a comfort blanket / spy in the camp and was deemed not fit to play in the Prem before he came to us.

He brought Cuco Martina, who is a Championship player His brinksmanship and tactical know-how appears to be missing.

He appeared to take no shit last year whilst having to endure Martinez's players blaming them all without exception " not my team".

Now he is starting to use bullshit just like Martinez for his failings blaming the formation of Spurs " not helping the situation" or words to that effect.

He has single-handedly destroyed Ross's confidence and wants a true blue to want away from the club. Love Ross or loathe him, he's an Evertonian who is desperate to get away. "Why is that ?"

He signed Williams. Enough said.

His football has been dire so far.

He has asked for players who fill the same role to be signed up.

He has failed to land a striker and I blame him for that because he has focussed too much on other midfielders.

He was desperate to get Wayne back. I'm not a big fan of young Wayne. My opinion, I know most on here love him.

I'm sure he will be given more time but I'd happily take someone else right now, he's lost the fans already and the dressing room might be split too. We have a team somewhere in this squad. He can't seem to find it.

Oliver Molloy
218 Posted 11/09/2017 at 20:41:48
Mark,

Kenwright was desperate to get Rooney back and cost us £10 million in the process and Kenwright is desperate for Barkley to stay.

Any manager would want to have Rooney in their squad because of what he can offer in experience alone , but I disagree with you that Koeman was "desperate" to get Rooney.

Why does Barkley want to leave? You can take your pick from all the rumours flying, but I will stick with "It's all about the money" and he wants more.

Anybody agree with the Palace manager being sacked?

Martin Mason
219 Posted 11/09/2017 at 20:42:19
Colin @211, but what is the "Transfer Czar"? What are his responsibilities?

From what I remember, the only thing said was that he was responsible for negotiations and even that isn't fact.

Oliver @218,

How do you know that Kenwright was desperate to get Rooney back and that he is desperate for Barkley to stay?

Oliver Molloy
221 Posted 11/09/2017 at 20:52:38
Here we go again...

A taxi driver told me, Martin, and they know everything!

Martin Mason
225 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:01:19
Oliver @221,

Sorry if that came across badly but I genuinely wanted to know the background.

Surely you'd agree that we shouldn't state as fact anything unless it is fact or unless there is weight of evidence to support it?

Rob Halligan
226 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:02:01
Oliver (#218). I'll answer you mate.

I think it was a bit unfair to sack him today. They were really unlucky not to at least draw at Burnley yesterday. You can't blame the manager for an awful back pass, or the really bad misses by Benteke and Dann.

At the very least, Palace could have waited until after the next four games when they will still be in the bottom three, possibly still with zero points, after they have played the Sinbads, Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea. At least they probably would have had justification to sack him after losing seven, or even all, of the first eight games.

Oliver Molloy
227 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:13:00
100% agree with everything you say Rob. I watched the match and Palace missed a few sitters. What is goingon when you sack a guy after four games!

Martin, well I can't provide evidence, but I believe the person who knows told me.

Christy Ring
229 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:15:06
How can we blame Kenwright for not getting a striker in the window? I'm not his biggest fan, but what does Barton know?

He might be in charge of negotiations, but was it Bill who wanted Martina, Williams, Klaassen and Sigurdsson? Get a grip – Ronald is boss. Bill's biggest wish, in my opinion, was too try and keep Barkley.

Brian Williams
230 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:19:59
I think for De Boer to be sacked there must have been more to it than just losing four games. There must have been, I would imagine, a huge and unsolvable difference between what the board wanted and what the manager wanted.

Four games is a blink of an eye!

John Pierce
231 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:26:51
Mmm. Not many of that fantastic Dutch team of the mid eighties are management material.

Rijkard
Gullit
Der Boer
Koeman

😜

Jack Convery
232 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:27:16
Can anyone name me a team outside last years top 6, who bought a player good enough for a top six team?

I can – Pickford – hes much better than the clown in goal across the park. Keane – he's more than a cut above the so called centre halves across the park and in my opinion better than the 3 regulars at Man City and those at Arsenal except for Koscelny.

Most players, clubs like ours buy, cannot get a move to a top six side, otherwise they would do it. Even the top six sides didn't get everyone they wanted – Sanchez, Barkley, Van Dijk to name just three. Why Pickford and Keane were ignored amazes me but gladdens me also, as we got them.

Klasssen was the key stone of Ajax, who reached the Europa League Final.
Sandro scored goals in La Liga not an easy thing to do unless you are playing for a top team in that league. Both these players can play football and score goals – they need time and patience from us.

Rooney is a name, a big big name – any other player getting pissed and trying it on whilst his wife was away, wouldn't have got a mention in most papers. Rooney is proven in EPL, scores goals, creates goals and leads on the field.

Sigurdsson was over priced but we need his abilities – he's played 2 full games, with no preseason, no wonder he didn't cover himself in glory on Saturday.

Martina was bought as a squad player – an established full back was never going to come to us, with Seamus on his way back, especially in a World Cup year.

Time and patience people. Kendall got it, when I and many others felt he had lost the plot and didn't have a clue. Alex Ferguson would not have brought all the success to Man Utd if the board had listened to the fans, who wanted him out, because he got rid of Robson and McGrath et al. Even Moyes got time at Goodison.

I too am not happy with Koeman at present but our club has been a mess for years if not decades. I don't want a few good years, followed once again by years of crap. I want sustained success and you get that by building solidly and moving forward slowly at first but moving forward for all that. Exactly what Spurs are doing under Levy. They for me are the role model we need to follow and eventually overtake, I know I may be a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

We have been given the worst set of fixtures I, for one, can ever remember to start the season and we have a real tough one on Sunday. Something tells me the lads will be up for this one, as I reckon a few of them will want to stuff the crap, Lukaku came out with every time he went to play for Belgium, ie "I want a big club", right back down his throat. I for one will be cheering them on and I guess you will too. It's what we do because We Are Everton!

Phil Sammon
234 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:36:21
Pickford's a really good keeper. Definitely needs to work on kicking out backpasses though. Left or right foot... he looks really shaky. Strange considering he's so good out of his hands.
Colin Glassar
235 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:41:49
Martin, I wouldn't be surprised if Kenwright eventually pushes out Moshiri in a palace coup. Bill's a sly old fox (remember when he was sick but recovered once Farhad gave him his cheque?) and could easily outmanoeuvre Moshiri.

If Bill was in Game of Thrones, he'd be Cersei without a doubt.

Mark Dunford
236 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:44:18
We've played badly all the way through a pretty dreadful run of fixtures. Apart from Pickford and Keane, none of the new signings has impressed greatly though Rooney's goals have been invaluable.

Some of the managerial decisions have been dire – notably starting both Klaassen and Sandro against Spurs and subbing them at half time; certainly not the way to build confidence in young players who are new to the league and the country.

I'd also question loaning out Dowell who is the only naturally left sided midfielder on the books. We have certainly signed too many comparable midfielders – who seem to be tripping over each other – yet the side lacks width and pace. All of us can see that a Calvert-Lewin and Sandro combination is at least worth trying. We have a talented young right back who sits out games while a Southampton cast off is played.

I suspect Koeman will go if Everton are knocked out of Europe and struggle in the league come December. As others note, he is a mercenary and will depart without much fuss if his contract is paid off. No doubt he'll continue if we stagger into the next phase of Euro vase and sit in the top half of the table. Whether Everton continue with him till the following season if we finish 8th or so is another question. I suspect not and this is probably his most likely end.

Martin Mason
237 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:52:44
Colin, let's just hope we can get through this.
Don Alexander
238 Posted 11/09/2017 at 21:56:33
Well said Jack Convery (#233), we're Everton supporters, not Koeman supporters, Lukaku supporters, or whoever else's supporters.

The people at the top have invested heavily in an enterprise for the long-term, albeit the stadium costs are confidential to all parties paying a whack.

As you say, we have bought good players for the now and near future. It's up to the manager to figure a way to maximise what he has until such time as he gets what he also rightly wants, namely a proper centre-forward and left-back, and then he's surely set for an attack on the top four.

Our first five fixtures would have daunted any team from the champions downwards but the acid test for Koeman comes between now and Christmas. Four points from four games is what we already have, having played three of the top teams. That will avoid relegation in itself if it goes on but we surely have to massively improve our potency and results against the so-called lesser sides even if we don't have the dogs chunks of a centre-forward who'll integrate with the many goal-scoring midfielders and strikers now at our disposal.

Stan Schofield
242 Posted 11/09/2017 at 22:30:17
Regarding potentially sacking Koeman, a lot of posts disagreeing with it have pointed to Kendall and Ferguson to illustrate the danger of acting too quickly, and of the likes of mediocre clubs sacking managers every five minutes. However, it can equally well be argued that the opposite is more often true, for example Chelsea showing Mourinho the door after poor results and 'losing the dressing room', and Man Utd doing similar with Van Gaal.

If we truly have ambition, and presumably Moshiri has, then even if Koeman isn't sacked now, there is a case for not leaving it much longer if there is not significant progress on the pitch. I would be surprised if Koeman lasts beyond Christmas. If results don't improve but he isn't sacked by then, it will indicate to me that this is the same old Everton, with no real ambition.

James Stewart
244 Posted 11/09/2017 at 22:31:42
@180

He plays them when he has no other choice. Calvert-Lewin only got a chance against city because Sandro was injured. MotM and you'd think he might keep his place... not a chance next 2 matches he's benched and forced to watch Sandro stink the gaff out.

Kenny star man for England U21s, picked ahead of the kopite Trent lad who plays every week for Liverpool by the way. Might as well be a plumber as far as Koeman is concerned.

Lookman. Doesn't even make a bench with Mirallas on it after Koeman publicly washed his hands of him. Goes on to run riot against Spurs U23s for Unsworth with our good old friend Oumar.

David Israel
245 Posted 11/09/2017 at 22:42:42
Oh for someone like Steve Parish at the club's helm! He doesn't take much time to get things changed, does he?
John Pierce
247 Posted 11/09/2017 at 23:03:46
Come on guys! Kendall and Ferguson were over 30 years ago.

Times and expectations have changed massively. The whole mechanics and machinations around football ownership and wealth have radically changed what constitutes patience or reason.

Patience is for teams with little or no ambition. Everton have in most cases given their managers time, mmm! So why not reflect the changing times and remove the man in charge?

By doing so the club remain in control of the situation. Sure it might not work out but decisive beats dithering any say of the week.

If Everton haven't stacked Koeman's contract with performance markers in exchange for that juicy £6M a year he gets then that's their problem. A lesson to learn.

So of they have to pay bumper compensation, then tough, more lessons to learn.

If Everton haven't got a succession plan, then again triple tough. They fucking should do for a business that turns over £100M plus per annum. I bet they don't. A touch of wild speculation to liven my rant up.

Really those less inclined to shove Koeman of the cliff. Would you miss him and his 'brand' of football if he left tomorrow?

Everton's best footy combines silk of the artist and the steel/heart of the athlete. Everton's best teams have had both.

Andrew James
249 Posted 11/09/2017 at 23:55:03
Darren Hind has been anti-Koeman on these boards for a while. I see Christine Foster and Andy Crooks have joined the ranks.

Not on here so much but I've had a problem since he played Bolasie week in / out and blocked Barkley and Mirallas and we struggled. The Watford away match really annoyed me.

Then we had 2 good months earlier in the year which secured 7th and the side went into semi-retirement post-Easter.

For me, when a team ends the season that badly, it won't start the next well. This was worsened by our fixture list. I'm sorry, but I just see the glass ceiling with Koeman already. Under Moyes with some money, I genuinely think we might have won a cup or got back into the Champions League. Under Martinez... maybe a cup? But under Koeman and him having resources those others could only dream of, we are basically going to finish where Moyes took us in 2003 with a motley crew.

The board won't remove Koeman, it's too pricey and they are just not like that, but for me we should have him out. But who comes in? I actually preferred Frank De Boer but he's had a nightmare albeit at two clubs which are eccentric. Eddie Howe? I suspect the Bournemouth bubble has burst, he is an Everton fan but last time he moved North it ended badly. And then the manager of that club he went to: Sean Dyche. Or Unsworth?

I'm being silly because unless we go on some terrible losing streak, which I cannot see our players doing once the harder fixtures have passed, Koeman will remain in place and we will continue to lament this bang-average manager's decisions.

Fran Mitchell
250 Posted 12/09/2017 at 01:43:24
Watford's manager looks the business.

Tuchel would be a dream.

Unsworth could work very well but could also be a disaster.

Joseph Terrence
251 Posted 12/09/2017 at 02:42:52
While I think Tuchel is a top class manager I do wonder if those that are floating his name around are the same that criticize Koeman for his lack of man management. It is well known that the reason for Tuchel's sacking was due to his poor man management as he lost the locker room, in addition to his desire for more control over transfers.

In my opinion, it'd be a worthwhile gamble, but if we were able to get him as manager there would surely be a number on here complaining that he doesn't bend over backwards to please whichever players inevitably would come to the press and complain about his style.

What a relief it would be to see an Everton team that has a clear tactical approach. Ultimately, I doubt the board would be willing to take the risk even if it became clear Tuchel was interested.

Paul Ferry
252 Posted 12/09/2017 at 03:45:55
Oliver Molloy 227 – "Well, I can't provide evidence, but I believe the person who knows told me.

That would now be twice on this thread and three times in a week, mate.

You haven't answered my request – #194.

This is so rich.

'Here we go again... A taxi driver told me, Martin, and they know everything!'

Three times in a week, Oliver.

Matt Traynor
253 Posted 12/09/2017 at 05:29:11
Paul (#252), some questions that always puzzle me...

Sometimes if someone tells you something, but asks you not to tell anyone that it was them that told you, does that mean they are implicitly saying you can tell others, as long as you don't reveal it was them that told you?

Because sometimes when I'm at a meeting or presentation at the embassy in the country where I work, it's under Chatham House rules – you can repeat what you heard, but cannot say where you heard it or who said it.

Years ago I used to get "tips" about Everton from former players/managers, journalists, even a football agent. Did they really know or was it just their opinion? Or did someone else tell them and they embellished it a bit?

But on this site, if you don't give the name, email address, phone number of the person who told you then you have no credibility...

To Oliver – learn your lesson lad, don't post this on a public forum, stick to discussing with colleagues mates.

Lee Brownlie
254 Posted 12/09/2017 at 05:29:20
Expectations? Well, we ALL expect better, for sure!! I also expect, suspect, that if any one of our new acquisations.. you know, those notably in midfield chasing down the same space and ball?.. were playing for one of those top-4 teams, they'd be having their own 'ball' and doing marvellously!!!
Paul Ferry
255 Posted 12/09/2017 at 05:43:15
Matt – 'But on this site if you don't give the name, email address, phone number of the person who told you then you have no credibility...

To Oliver – learn your lesson lad, don't post this on a public forum, stick to discussing with colleagues mates.

Amen to the last sentence. I think that was my point.

But feck it Matt let's let someone - everyone - dance on here with this watery stuff 3 times in 7 days or once in a week, whatever ,..,...

Your work analogy is ridiculous, by the way. In work we are accountable. Here, folk can just make shit up if they wish and – erm – who holds them accountable?

Answer, us.

Will Mabon
256 Posted 12/09/2017 at 06:59:22
"It's under Chatham House rules – you can repeat what you heard, but cannot say where you heard it or who said it."

Such a beneficent framework for honest, well-intentioned, non-manipulative communication... or so I heard from someone, somewhere.

Terry Farrell
257 Posted 12/09/2017 at 07:46:23
Jack Convery, I agree completely. The game might have changed but essentially it's still football and a manager needs time to blend a team and learn what does and doesn't work.

Too many on here expect instant results. Winds me up! The line-up for the Spurs game wasn't the best but I support the team.
Paul Ward
258 Posted 12/09/2017 at 07:57:39
Colin Glassar @235 wrote : "Martin, I wouldn't be surprised if Kenwright eventually pushes out Moshiri in a palace coup. Bill's a sly old fox (remember when he was sick but recovered once Farhad gave him his cheque?) and could easily outmanoeuvre Moshiri. If Bill was in Game of Thrones, he'd be Cersei without a doubt."

You are spot-on, Colin, but a little too polite, calling him a sly old fox. I would use stronger words like an evil conniving bastard who has conned Evertonians for many years. He is using Moshiri like he used Paul Gregg, get his investment in the club then piss him off.

Bullshit Bill has lied about investments, new grounds and many other things, but he is still in complete control.

He is the last man standing since he took over in 1999 and we have won nothing ever since. So, before we drive our present manager and players out, let us make a stand and put the blame where it belongs.

Colin Glassar
259 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:00:25
Has Koeman been found out?
Dermot Byrne
260 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:03:37
Paul (#258) interesting re the power play. Always a great soap.

I just wondered how we know Bill is still in complete control? I would feel silly making a stand if it turned out otherwise and Moshiri was really the one in control (ie, he has the most shares). Nah, that would be silly.

Dermot Byrne
261 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:10:23
Ah! I have conducted more research and now get it. Joey Barton has spoken.
Rob Young
262 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:20:50
Koeman is taking us nowhere. I bet he will want us to be out of the League Cup asap, so that will be another chance of a trophy gone. Then again, he'll probably think playing all the kids and Oumar will get us knocked out early. Not knowing, as he never watches them (WTF!), that our youngsters are actually winners.

Look at all the medals the kids have won lately – be it with Everton or England. Unsworth seems to have installed a winning mentality there. A first step on your way to success.

Remember what Carragher said about our players? That's Koeman. Resigned to be 7th and not winning a cup.

I'm not saying Unsworth is the answer as he is a huge gamble. But give him a bit of time short-term to see what happens.

Dermot Byrne
263 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:23:17
Let's get the ex Palace manager some of us argued for!
Colin Glassar
264 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:35:44
Joey Barton and Unsy would be a great managerial pair. One has the brains, the other the know-how and both are passionate Blues.

I always wanted Joseph to play for us in some capacity but that never happened; at least we could get him in as assistant manager.

Will Mabon
265 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:39:23
Joking aside, Dermot, imagine trying to select a manager now, should the be.., er, worst happen.

More than ever today, just how does a club gauge who is the right man? Selected too, from who's available at any given time. It almost makes a case for allowing the longer term development of a devil-you-know in many ways choice, such as Unsworth – providing Premier League safety is not at risk.

Phil Walling
266 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:48:25
Many more posts suggesting Unsy (my choice too) to replace The Dutchman and we shall see him moved on 'by mutual consent'.

We read yesterday that he had already upset the gaffer by pushing Kenny's case for inclusion in the first team which, if true, will have put him on the danger list!

So shhhhh.... he's OUR secret!

John Smith
267 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:56:04
Bring back Jags into the defence ffs.
Phil Walling
268 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:56:57
On Chatham House Rules mentioned above, I once had a boss who believed 'confidential' meant only telling one person at a time!
Martin Mason
269 Posted 12/09/2017 at 08:58:50
Paul @258, you must know Bill Kenwright personally and understand the inner workings of the club since 1999. So good to see this knowledge when most who slag Kenwright off have their views only based on rumour, myth and irrational personal bias.

I have a theory about why Kenwright runs a football club and is a successful businessman while his critics just pay to watch.

Paul A Smith
270 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:00:16
I don't mind constructive criticism of anyone in positions of power but to basically say Kenwright was pretending to be sick until he made some money is just beyond a joke.

And expecting a statement like that to be taken seriously.

Dermot Byrne
271 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:00:39
At least Joey would be a short-term contract.
Dermot Byrne
272 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:03:52
It is great fun to tell a secret in different versions to several people. They inevitably end up going "that's not what I heard" and someone will come and confidentially tell you what people are saying! Oh it passes time between fun.
Dermot Byrne
273 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:06:37
Paul (#270): It was posted 7:47, so unless he was still on the ale with Wayne, no excuse!
Phil Walling
274 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:08:24
Nice one, Dermot. Such technique was often employed by the guy I mentioned. He used to call it 'I Shatem Rules'!
Brendan Fox
275 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:12:15
Ronald, you shitehouse, if you want a dose of "realism", how about the fact you've been the best-backed manager in the club's history? You've assembled a squad of players you alone have courted and chosen, so stop the "blame game" tactics as the majority don't buy your bullshit excuses.

Up your game, get the right players in the team playing in their best positions, and play to their strengths — or pack your brand of shite total football in your bags and do one!

Colin Glassar
276 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:13:36
The rumours were, Paul, that he was dangerously ill. Nothing official ever came out to counter these rumours and Boys Pen Billy did nothing to squash the stories. He even made it worse by attending most home games looking like death warmed up.

Amazing what a multi-million pound cheque can do to one's slovenly, unkempt, "look at me – I'm sick", appearance. Wake up and smell the coffee. This fella has been taking us for a ride for decades now.

Dermot Byrne
277 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:18:48
Fine rules, Phil!
Nicholas Ryan
278 Posted 12/09/2017 at 09:27:32
While we look for someone else, I gather Frankie De Boer does a good line in short-term 'fill-in' appointments!
Paul A Smith
279 Posted 12/09/2017 at 10:47:43
Wake up and smell the coffee. Nobody is more open-minded than me. I don't do the soppy shite but I don't pretend to know about one's health either.

This is like the same old nonsense of Bill's Mortgage etc. Until I can prove he didn't, I can't really argue. My next door neighbour had breast cancer at 68 and at 73 now she looks fantastic.

Cut out the shit about a person's health that you can't prove and want to spice up to make your point feel important. It's the kind of shite my ma and her smoking mates liked to gossip about years ago.

Brian Porter
280 Posted 12/09/2017 at 10:51:09
Three days since Saturday's debacle and only two days until we face Atalanta and still this thread continues with what I see as totally justified condemnation of Koeman and his tactics, or lack of, and utterly ridiculous team selections.

It's been a while since I've seen such consistent and almost universal togetherness among TW members. Even in the worst times under Roberto, there was always a significant minority who would defend our former manage.

I see no evidence of any such support for Koeman who it seems to be agreed, has cocked up royally in every aspect of his management of the team. That says a lot about the general feeling, not just here, but if translated to the general fan base, must make Koeman our least popular manager, ever!

He has made no connection with the club, or the fans who turn up every week ready to watch and support the team he constantly refers to as 'Everton' rather than 'us' or 'we' which we might expect from a manager who has been in charge for over a year. All his words do is show his complete disconnect from the team and the fans. He displays no passion for the club or indeed for the game, as he stands like a gargoyle on the touchline looking like he's permanently sucking a lemon.

What on earth made Moshiri think he was the man to transform us into a top six team? He's virtually admitted we're not good enough to make the top six this season. Talk about defeatist talk! The man is a fraud and a coward. Thank God us Brits were made of sterner stuff during World War Two. If we'd all been like Koeman, Hitler's army would have defeated us in no time.

For the sake of our club and its future, the sooner we get rid of this failure of a manager, the better!

Brent Stephens
281 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:02:11
Paul (#279), I'm, also uncomfortable with innuendos about somebody conning us about their health. If the man was seriously ill, that's bad enough, but worse for people to say "you're conning".
Will Mabon
282 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:04:46
Brian! For the first time I've seen here at least – Godwin's Law proven on TW!
Stan Schofield
283 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:07:14
Brian, well said, and good analogy with the war. The allies gradually got more organised, they got less organised. The way Koeman's going, we're getting less and less organised. It'll end in tears if he doesn't go.

Paul, yes, trouble is, every time we play shite, Kenwright gets hammered. But the reasons for being shite are more apparent than all that. It's because Koeman's organisational and man-management abilities are shite. As soon as we get a manager who can organise the good set of players we've got, there's every reason to believe we'll be less shite.

Stan Schofield
284 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:24:19
Will, with ToffeeWeb, Godwin's Law should be extended to include Norris Green Baths.
Brent Stephens
285 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:32:07
Schofield's Law. There – you're famous, Stan. Get that on Wiki now.
Paul A Smith
286 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:37:41
Brent (#281), it's okay to have wild theories on club plans or team summary but guessing somebody is lying about health strange.

I really can't bring myself to say things I wouldn't like said to me, or do things I wouldn't like somebody else to do.

Daniel Lim
287 Posted 12/09/2017 at 11:39:56
Yawn.

When are we going to see the headline: "Ronald Koeman the second managerial casualty of the season"?

Will Mabon
289 Posted 12/09/2017 at 12:01:46
Stan, yes... you're right!
Andy Dempsey
290 Posted 12/09/2017 at 12:12:48
Just on De Boer, I think he was sacked because he's a really poor manager with no charisma or motivational skills.

Wasn't liked by Ajax fans, lost the dressing room instantly at Inter – he's one of these surly, unapproachable ex-players who think they're the shit, basically. Bells? Ringing?

We need the new progressive forces in management, before they get snapped up, like that Irish fella at Hull – Marc O'Silva – or Robert Wagner at Huddersfield. These guys are the future. They earn the respect of the player by having good ideas, in training and on matchdays. Instead of relying on "You must respect me because I scored 140 free-kicks in the 80s."

No more De Boer talk, please.

Will Mabon
291 Posted 12/09/2017 at 12:19:56
Andy, I seriously doubt anyone means it. Anyway, we have a much better manager who has already led us to four points more than De Boer achieved.
Andy Dempsey
292 Posted 12/09/2017 at 12:49:14
It is exciting times, Will, you're right.

Absolutely buzzing about the game on Thursday night. Just two more sleeps!

Alan Smith
294 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:01:38
Brent 196,

All of those analyses are correct. They are all symptoms of the route cause of the problem.

I can't believe no one on this thread has missed the bleedingly obvious.

We are selling club, geared up to finish top 7 for the minimum possible outlay. Our board see it as a business. Just as Arsenal gear up for fourth. Both boards will happily take higher but will not make the necessary moves to make it happen.

Why sell 4 great young players if you're ambitious and building for the future?

This is why Koeman thinks he's not to blame. He's already arrogant and in his mind the board never found him a striker.

But some on here are loyal to Moshiri, some to Koeman, and some to Walsh. Walsh and Koeman are definitely under performing as well, but wake up guys. I realised it was the same as usual when we sold Stones and Moshiri phoned up talkSport to give his excuses for not signing Koulibaly.

We sold stones and bought Williams but "McCarthy is part of the Everton family"! Bill Kenwright could have wrote those lines.

If as a fan you want Everton to do well you should demand more from Moshiri. Finding a better manager maybe included in that. Paying for good players and not selling is an absolute must if you exist to win trophies!

However, half our fans think lukaku is lazy and has bad touch and half think we should sell Barkley.

So maybe the fans are route cause. They buy whatever Moshiri's selling.

Brian Harrison
295 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:13:27
Quite often we argue about who was our best and worst manager, so I thought I would look up the stats of all the managers we have had since I started watching the Blues. Now I know many will say well yes his win % was better than his because of this or that. But this is just a list of games and win %

Manager Games Win % Years
Ian Buchan 116 32.8 1956- 1958
Johnny Carey 122 41.8 1958 - 1961
Harry Catterick 594 46.5 1961 -1973
Billy Bingham 172 37.2 1973 - 1977
Gordon Lee 234 39.3 1977 - 1981
Howard Kendall 338 54.1 1981 - 1987
Colin Harvey 170 42.4 1987 - 1990
Howard Kendall 162 38.9 1990 - 1993
Mike Walker 35 17.1 1994 - 1994
Joe Royle 123 39.0 1994 - 1997
Howard Kendall 42 26.2 1997 - 1998
Walter Smith 173 32.4 1998 - 2002
David Moyes 516 42.1 2002 - 2013
Roberto Martinez 140 42.9 2013 - 2016
Ronald Koeman 49 44.9 2016 -


Alan Smith
296 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:18:07
232 😂

Keane and Pickford?

Pickford too short and regularly palms shots into opposition feet.

Keane turns like Huth, not as hard and jibbed from man utd who have their worst defence in thirty years. He's nowhere near the England starting 11.

When we signed Lescott, was he better than keane? When we signed Howard, a full international at the time, was he better than Pickford?

I like them both but the top 6 are not arsed one bit of missing out on those 2. They may have signed worse but they already know these two players inside out, and they've decided to look for better. Much better!

John Hughes
297 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:34:42
You are right, Brian, there are many and varied reasons, scenarios behind the stats... but at the end of the day the stats don't lie. What your list tells me is that we shouldn't be panicking just yet, that's for sure.

And some of the Guys on here should take a large dose of reality, mixed with a little bit of patience and a nice lie down in a dark room!

Tom Bowers
298 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:35:36
Well, the knives are ready for Ron as I am sure he knows in this cutthroat world of football management after the De Boer shock. Two bad results against top clubs doesn't exactly get the alarm bells ringing but the next few games are so crucial to his tenure.

Not playing well and not scoring goals is bad enough for most teams but, after the money, that has been spent one expects something more even in the short term.

Everton really missing the raids down the wings of Baines and Coleman from the first Martinez season which provided so much. Everton just going through the motions of passing sideways and backwards with no incisiveness going forward.

Rooney is finished as a target forward and Sandro is one paced. One wonders about the 8 million paid for Sandro when they may have kept Valencia for nothing who seems a better option. I hope Sandro proves me wrong but he looks lost at the moment.

Calvert-Lewin should start against Atalanta.

Dennis Stevens
299 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:53:09
1 HOWARD KENDALL 01 Jun 81 - 18 Jun 87 338 183 54.1

2 HARRY CATTERICK 17 Apr 61 - 11 Apr 73 592 275 46.5

3 RONALD KOEMAN 14 Jun 16 - continuing 49 22 44.9

4 COLIN HARVEY 19 Jun 87 - 31 Oct 90 176 75 42.6

5 ROBERTO MARTINEZ 05 Jun 13 - 12 May 16 143 61 42.7

6 DAVID MOYES 14 Mar 02 - 30 Jun 13 518 218 42.1

7 JOE ROYLE 10 Nov 94 - 27 Mar 97 118 47 39.8

8 GORDON LEE 30 Jan 77 - 31 May 81 234 92 39.3

9 BILLY BINGHAM 28 May 73 - 10 Jan 77 172 64 37.2

Dave Abrahams
300 Posted 12/09/2017 at 13:56:06
John Hughes (#297), yes far too early to start talking about getting rid of the manager, but what some of us are asking is when is Koeman going to motivate the team?

We are upset at his tactics, the Chelsea game, he changed the shape of the team with seven minutes to go, left it far too late, changed players versus Spurs but not the shape of the team which looked demoralised and well beaten after half an hour.

We are entitled to expect more from Koeman, the poor performances are a hangover from last season. I realise the players have been changed a lot and we played two very good teams in the two losses up to now, but there has been nothing up to now in any games to inspire confidence that we are going to get better any time soon.

Can Koeman get the team playing any better? – is what a lot of us are asking.

Geoff Williams
301 Posted 12/09/2017 at 14:10:42
I think it is the level of the performance by the team and the lack of quality in some of the recent additions to the squad rather than the results which is the major concern. When the fixtures were first announced I thought we might struggle but I did not expect the total absence of structure or pattern to the play.

Koeman's team selections have exacerbated things. Klaassen and Sandro should not be first-choice players at the moment. Williams and Martina are simply not good enough and should be fringe players and nothing more.

I don't know who is actually responsible for recruitment but they have shown poor judgement. What I do know is that Koeman is responsible for selecting and preparing the team for matches and he is failing badly.

A heavy defeat is probably on the cards at Old Trafford but if we fail against Bournemouth and/or Burnley then Koeman's position as manager must be questioned.

I also fear that a weak team will be selected against Sunderland. An early exit from this cup competition will be catastrophic for squad confidence and the good will of the supporters.

Christy Ring
302 Posted 12/09/2017 at 14:12:14
Michael Ball as always talking a lot of sense in the Echo. Like we all said, lucky we weren't hammered against Spurs, and the amount of space they had in midfield.

I'm not a fan of Carragher, but doesn't mince his words, and I agree completely with his comment, Koeman was more interested in buying Sigurdsson, who he didn't need, instead of a striker to replace Lukaku, which was essential.

David McMullen
303 Posted 12/09/2017 at 14:28:02
I missed half the game, had it on the radio. Not going to read everyone else's comments too many but my opinion is Koeman needs to stop being being too respectful for our "top 6" opponents stop being fearful of them and start getting his own house in order let them worry about us.

But so far we have more holes in us than the Beatles sang about Blackburn, Lancashire. Yes, we have to give the players time to gel and certain players time to adjust but, if you changed the name from Everton to Palace and the manager from Keoman to De Boer, I honestly think you would not know which was which!

Footnote: I worry about us having no style shape or system. We started that way last season; we did get better. I can only hope it gets better!

Brian Harrison
304 Posted 12/09/2017 at 14:28:55
John (#297),

I was thinking when I put the list together that since 1956 we have only had 3 managers that have won a trophy. That for a club of our size is pretty poor.

I would also add that I have watched a lot of dross in a Blue shirt in that time, but just thankful I also got to watch some of the best that have worn the shirt.

Andy Dempsey
305 Posted 12/09/2017 at 14:38:17
He's a shite manager who will never win anything in this country, so let's get rid of him now instead of prolonging the agony. I think that's what most people are getting at.

It's not insane to sack the guy now, as some, Big Nev included, are suggesting. He's had a season – it's some of the worst, most unimaginative football I've ever seen – and we've seen what he's all about now. It's just absolutely turgid, mind-bendingly awful stuff with no spirit, plan or sign of progress.

What's this illusion that sticking with this formula will somehow make it better?

Those who want Koeman out now, have got their heads screwed on. I'm only judging him on every match he's managed with us, and it's a piss poor collection of unbalanced team selections, which has continued into this season. He's not going to change his ways, and I don't want to watch this for another two seasons before he's sacked anyway.


Gary Willock
306 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:02:03
In Moyes at least we felt solid (apart from occasional major hiccups).

In Martinez at least we felt like we would score (until his 5-2-3-1 got sussed).

Under Koeman it feels like neither.

The very fact I am even comparing him to them and looking on them in favourable light should tell you all you need to know.

Andy Dempsey
307 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:04:07
Alan (#292),

Very provocative stuff, Alan. It's the fans fault, we need to wake up? Hmmm... I think we're all awake to the type of club we are - that's why we're all on here angrily, passionately and in good humour, posting stuff that needs to change – sadly this is out of our control.

Yes, Moshiri should sack Koeman and get a better manager in and back him with transfer money. That's not an unreasonable demand, that's pretty damn 'woke'.

Pickford is clearly the future England No. 1 – Do England keepers make mistakes? Yes. Does De Gea and Lloris make mistakes? Yes. They all do. Doesn't make Pickford an inferior keeper that the top six won't go near.

We should all wake up to the fact that we're a selling club geared to finish 7th by an owner and board that doesn't care? Really insightful comments, yeh. Dead helpful.

Stan Schofield
308 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:04:10
Alan @294: A lot of us have already said this, that if we were really going for the big time we would be keeping hold of our best players.

I'm sure you're right that from a cold business perspective the likes of Moshiri could well see the extra investment needed to push us higher, as being too disproportionate in relation to the returns he'd get from that higher success. In other words, he's not too bothered about winning trophies, so long as Everton stay in the Premier League gravy train. Bit like Liverpool and Spurs, win nought, but be a 'contender'.

I tend to think that, whatever young player we have who makes a big impact on football wider than Everton, we'll sell him on fairly quickly, for a healthy profit, as opposed to using him to try to win trophies. A business basis for an Academy?

But given all that, to be a 'contender' you need to see signs of an improving system, where the players we've got are used to best advantage. I think that's the issue at the moment. It's easier to push for changing the manager, towards improving and becoming a 'contender', than it is to change the ownership.

Stan Schofield
309 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:22:22
Alan @294: Just to add, although we talk about wanting to win trophies, I believe that even if we don't, a lot of us will be happy to be a 'contender', a club that looks like we can win trophies, plays entertaining football, finishes consistently high in the Premier League, and wins Derby games regularly.

Moshiri et al aren't daft, they probably know that fans are happy with those things, and the old adage 'you get nought for coming second' just isn't true. You get something, you get a lot of satisfaction for the fans, and decent profits.

I always remember the 68-69 season, better than the 69-70 title winning season. We din't win anything in 68-69, but we were truly great.

Oliver Molloy
310 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:29:34
Sorry, Paul Ferry, but I'm not saying anything more – obviously!
Jerome Shields
311 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:29:47
This article confirms that Koeman has to go asap. He will only damage Everton.

I can only sympathise with the contributor, who reminisced about the fact that Pelligrini was interested. Also, I can't believe this idiot, Koeman, kept the board waiting until he came back from his holidays.
Andy Meighan
312 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:32:25
Daniel (#287),

This time next year.

John Keating
313 Posted 12/09/2017 at 15:58:08
I think I was one of the first on here calling for Martinez to go, possibly before Christmas of his second season as I believed the writing was on the wall for him and his crazy unfit teams tactics.

At present, I am on the wall regards Koeman and again will wait until Christmas to see if he changed the ridiculous patterns in tactics and selection that we are presently witnessing.

Prior to the start of the season, I thought we would have 3 points after the United game so having 4 is a bit of a bonus; however, I didn't expect us to play like overpaid cowards led by a clueless manager.

Many have used the "hard" games of the start of the season as an excuse, not me. It's embarrassing. Losing, like winning, becomes a habit.

If things do not appreciably improve and change by the end of December, Koeman has to go.

Dermot Byrne
314 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:13:46
"..overpaid cowards"

Hard to argue against in the Chelsea and Spurs games.

Brian Harrison
315 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:30:08
Yes, there are many things that Koeman needs to address but, last season, most posters said a top 7th finish would be acceptable. Now 4 games in and some are calling for Koeman to be sacked, but hardly anybody has suggested a credible replacement.

Sacking someone is easy but replacing him with someone better is a whole different ball game. I know one or two have suggested Unsworth and he has done a smashing job with the Under 23s. But apart from him who are the other possible candidates. My choice before we got RM was Diego Simeone but the chances of him coming to us are practically nil. He for me is the one guy you could nearly guarantee would do a great job.

So guys just don't post "Sack Koeman" – give us some credible alternatives. I remember some of the suggestions when we were about to sack Martinez, I seem to remember lots suggesting Frank de Boer.

James Stewart
316 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:38:28
@315 There are plenty of options should Koeman be sacked. I don't think that will happen by the way but he is not doing himself any favours lately.

My choice would be the next Pochettino, someone who is a winner and embraces youth and the whole ethos of a club. I'm talking about Marco Silva of course. Fantastic coach and motivator. A lot of clubs missed a trick letting Watford take him, mind you knowing them, he will probably be free again come the summer. I expect that to surprise a lot of people this season.

Peter Lee
317 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:46:26
Big Sam on Monday night football listed seven things that needed doing to secure Premier League safety and explained how he applied them to Palace. Leave aside any prejudices you might have about the man and read it.

Anyone who knows their football would agree that those seven "principles" apply to achieving success, not just staying in the hunt. As he alludes to, the key difference between staying in the Premier League and becoming a contender is buying better players.

Can anyone on here look at what Koeman has achieved and seriously support the view that he has a team which plays to those principles? He has had the resources to buy better players but that is the final factor that moves you on once you have the rest correct.

He has had 50 games to impose those principles on his team. It doesn't matter what shape you use – those principles apply in my view. He has failed. Consistently. Move him on.

My alternative? Big Sam with David Unsworth as assistant manager / understudy.

Frank Wade
318 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:49:50
Peter, I didn't watch the Monday Night Football show last night. Do you have a link to or a list of big Sam's principles? Sounds like a possible thread on it's own.
Chris Gould
319 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:50:45
I'm not sure these players deserve a fantastic new couch, James.
They're pampered enough. Make them sit on the floor!
Daniel Lim
320 Posted 12/09/2017 at 16:57:07
John @313, not trying to come here and say "I told you so" but I was also calling for Martinez to be sacked before Christmas of his second season. Can't remember I did it here but definitely screaming for him to be sacked on a Whatsapp group.

Unlike many on here, I'm not well verse in tactics or formation. I only want to enjoy the beautiful game, and sometimes it's very obvious that those millionaires on the pitch don't want to be on the pitch.

It might be their own attitude problem, might be they don't feel like playing for that guy they call boss/manager, might be they are confused. And worse is no fighting spirit at all. When this happens to most of the team, and for a few matches in a row or say 7 out of the last 10 games, that's when I would start to think the guy needs to walk.

And I think waiting until Christmas is too late. I would say, latest by mid October.

Frank Wade
321 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:17:59
As Christian (#31) above says, for a manager at this level to be surprised by Spurs midfield structure is embarrassing. It was clear after 15 minutes that it needed fixing as Eriksen had such freedom.

Alright, grant Sissoko all the freedom he wants but not Eriksen. The Everton manager was surprised that Spurs player Eriksen would find all the space we left on the right hand side of our midfield. Having been surprised, he made no attempt to correct this until half-time.

Hard to know what to do, but it was clear from the Ruzomberok home game that our 'system' wasn't working. I for one am staying quiet re managerial matters as I was in the Frank De Boer camp last time. I have been pleasantly surprised by the tactical approach and fluidity shown by Dave Unsworth's U3 side last season.

Peter Warren
322 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:20:16
I'd still give Koeman time although it is always concerning when every man and their dog can see problems and ways to improve it – ie start Davies and Calvin Lewis in their best positions and scrap 3 at back and scrap 3 up top and scrap Gueye and Schneiderlin playing together in 90% of games.
Brent Stephens
323 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:26:15
Frank (#321) – and I think you were one of only two I could see on Live Forum who called that problem in the Spurs game (i.e. the space afforded to Spurs on our right hand side).
Laurie Hartley
324 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:29:22
Frank Wade (#318) – allow me. Here is the link you requested:-

Sam's Seven

Frank Wade
325 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:40:47
I mentioned it Brent in response to those giving Martina a kicking on the Live Forum. I had to speak up as you were at the game. I appreciated the mention you gave me in your post. I only get over twice a season and have tickets for Bournemouth, so I can make my vocal contribution then. At least I'll be able to see the full pitch for that game.

I very seldom played at right back (box to box midfielder a long time back, I think we had Roman numerals on our shirts), but when I did, seemed to spend half my time shouting for cover from the Right mid. Martina isn't great but no one could be expected to cope. I am glad that JonJoe wasn't played in those circumstances. Gana did try to cover over but usually when Eriksen was already in possession. It's so frustrating to watch us getting completely out thought tactically.

Laurie Hartley
326 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:41:57
In case of an overwhelming desire to throw a Sam Allardyce wobbler, please consider this quote of his from the same show:-

"It was a great end to a very difficult start to my tenure at Palace but we finally came through with flying colours. For me, one of the best 10 to 12 days I had was when we beat Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Arsenal at home."

Honestly.

Frank Wade
327 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:51:44
Thanks Laurie, much appreciated. I think we struggle to get past #3 Pass the first ball forward. It's possible that we have no one showing for the ball, but Schneiderlin in particular will pass it sideways or backwards 90% of the time.

Going back to the Koeman midfield layout, one of our old managers had a catchphrase 'Get the middle occupied'.

Brent Stephens
328 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:54:31
Frank, yes, that's why I think it was important to point it out – Martina was overrun because of lack of cover on our right.

I see Davies got a place in the team of the weekend in one paper – jeez, he didn't have any opposition down our right!

"I think we had Roman numerals on our shirts". I had an Egyptian hieroglyph – a fox. Hell playing on sand in those days, especially after a hard day's work on't pyramid.

Paul A Smith
329 Posted 12/09/2017 at 17:59:19
Peter Lee (#317). Very well explained post mate.

This country is obsessed with labels. The likes of Sam Allardyce and Tony Pulis who are very good at attention-to-detail strategy are often scorned upon. They never really do a bad job anywhere but never get credit.

The obsession that coaches must be either an exotic name such as Mourinho or sexy football blagger like Rodgers has run the rule far too long.

I haven't looked at Mondays assessment but everytime I have listened to Allardyce he is impressive. He keeps the simple stuff important.

Tony Pulis has done a fantastic job at West Brom. The calibre of player he has signed compared to what he started with there has been excellent.
Both of them have great systems for the type of player they need to sign.

There will always be the worry they are signing players to do a job and its harder at bigger clubs but I see nothing wrong with either of them. If only Allardyce wasn't a greedy fool off the pitch, I was actually looking forward to watching an England side look committed under him.

Frank Wade
330 Posted 12/09/2017 at 18:05:52
Brent, I worked in Bahrain for 3 years in mid-80s and playing on some pitches with sand on hard core was not good for the knees. Expect you had the same problem down Egypt way.
Mike Gwyer
331 Posted 12/09/2017 at 18:21:18

You know what, maybe Koeman just don't give a fuck. He's no Evertonian so what does he care.

All the errors on Saturday were being spotted after just 15 minutes by everyone around me, so for a £6M a year coach, it must have been obvious almost immediately.

Martina was struggling almost from kick-off and it was just shocking as the game progressed, yet no changes were made to replace Martina or worse, too help the boy out. Spurs could not get the ball out that way quick enough.

Also, Koeman is sticking with Williams even though he's absolute shite and for me Klaassen just can't keep pace with either the game or the physical contact that goes with the Premier Leagye, but Koeman has him playing as soon as he's fit.

Worse yet, Koeman is currently working with no experienced strikers and IMO a worrying shortage of good centre-backs, so is Koeman thinking "if the board don't give a fuck I can play stick or twist all day long".

I googled Koeman and his management time at Valencia. It seems Valencia fans were in raptures once they got rid our man Koeman but they had to sit through some mega shite before the board took action. During that time Koeman pissed off the entire dressing room, the board and it would seem every Valencia fan.

I reckon Koeman can take all the shite us fans can throw at him; but then he gets to pick the team for Saturday's game, and, he also tells the players what formation they are playing. Ha Ha.

James Hughes
332 Posted 12/09/2017 at 18:30:34
Laurie that link almost makes me weep and I am lost for words.

#2 Don't lose possession in your own half;
#3 Make the first pass forward!

We all know that works so why are we still playing that way after 4 years with Martinez & Koeman combined?


Darren Hind
333 Posted 12/09/2017 at 18:58:09
Big Sam often got unfair press. Yes' his teams played ugly football, but he was often working on a shoe string with a brief to keep the club in the Premier League.

For a period, Bolton pushed the boat out and were signing players like Hierro, Campo, Djorkaeff and the inimitable Jay-Jay Okocha. They were superb. Playing some of the best football I have seen in the Premier League... I don't know why none of us ever mention that.

I even think they twatted us 0-4 at Goodson one time – although I may have just dreamed that one.

Of course it wasn't possible for a club like Bolton to keep signing top class talent and before you knew it they were pumping balls into Kevin Davies or Kevin Nolan.

I guess it comes down to the quality of player you have to work with

Stan Schofield
334 Posted 12/09/2017 at 19:05:26
Mike @331: He certainly looks and talks like he doesn't give a fuck. But maybe it's not surprising when you consider the contracts managers get. They can fail, be shown the door, and still make a fortune.

Maybe if contracts were changed to those in 'normal' life, Koeman and others would start acting and talking like they do give a fuck.

Phil Walling
335 Posted 12/09/2017 at 19:27:36
Brian @ 315. What absolute nonsense you write, "Don't post to sack Koeman without naming a credible alternative."

If you have an employee who fails to perform at an acceptable level, you get shut before he ruins the firm! The question of a replacement is secondary and there is, or should be, a capable deputy who can at least hold the fort until the ideal replacement is identified.

That has been the situation with De Boer at his last three clubs and it is the situation with Koeman at ours.

So, rapidly mixing metaphors, you lance the boil, apply a little 'Salve of Unsworth' and get 'the family' to sit round the bed whilst the patient recovers. We hope!

Brian Harrison
336 Posted 12/09/2017 at 19:41:31
Phil

Thank heavens you are not in charge of Everton, so your policy is sack the manager without making sure you have his replacement. And please stop trying to use normal jobs as how you deal with a man on a £6 million-a -ear contract.

Mind, I didn't think you would ever give an alternative because if your choice of manager was hired you might have to defend him.

As I said in my post Diego Simeone was a manager I would love here, but we have little or no chance of getting him. So, if they do get rid of Koeman, I would go for Marco Silva, he did a very good job at Hull and he has started well at Watford.

Kevin Tully
337 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:15:45
People talk about this manager like he's only had 4 League games at the club. Has everyone forgotten he's in his second year of a three year contract?

There are indisputable facts at play. He's down here Link as the 11th highest paid manager in the World! He's spent well over £200m.

There are no grey areas, he simply has to deliver. Setting his team up not to concede isn't my idea of value for money. He has another 3 months, and that's being kind. There are no signs of progress or discernible playing style. He'd better find one soon, or he'll witness how quickly the Goodison crowd can turn on a manager – then he's toast.

Paul Hewitt
338 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:21:46
We finished 7th, and qualified for Europe last season. Progress in my book.
Colin Glassar
339 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:30:37
Flipping between Champions League games on the telly, all I can say is, thank Christ we're not playing there. Some of the football is unworldly.
Martin Nicholls
340 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:41:54
Brian – I agree that disposing of an important employee without having an adequate replacement ready to step in is sheer folly. This is precisely what Koeman did when allowing the sale of Lukaku!
Oliver Molloy
341 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:42:24
Colin, Neymar is just different class, some of his touches are just fantastic .
Paul Tran
342 Posted 12/09/2017 at 20:51:43
Allardyce has always intrigued me. Good organiser of teams. A clearly good communicator who can get the best out of his players. He handled the older, classier players well and his teams often play better football than they're given credit for.

I thought he was very badly treated as England manager; I think someone wanted him out.

Big question is; good at getting the best from low budget, low expectations. What would he be like under the pressure to succeed and win trophies?

David Graves
343 Posted 12/09/2017 at 21:51:34
Paul, he was on £3 million a year plus bonuses and the greedy fool was prepared to accept £400k to advise on how to get around 3rd party rules. Don't think he was badly treated at all.
David Edwards
344 Posted 12/09/2017 at 22:00:20
Totally agree, Colin. I worry that the Europa League is suddenly well above our current level based on recent performances. Dreading Sunday too!
Phil Sammon
345 Posted 12/09/2017 at 22:34:29
Allerdyce? Flipping Allerdyce?! Please tell me we can aim higher than that arrogant fool.
Alan Smith
346 Posted 12/09/2017 at 23:04:44
Stan (#308 & #309)

I agree with everything you said and I'm not pushing for a change of ownership. I also realise that Moshiri was bound to get a honeymoon period.

I just think the fans made it too easy for the board to sell Lukaku. And the lack of pressure to buy an adequate replacement I also find astonishing.

I believe we should be putting moshiri under a lot more pressure. Bill Kenwright would have been destroyed for this window!!

Please realise: This man was happy to sell the best goalscorer we've had, break even on transfers, and sell Barkley, Niasse and Mirallas even after he knew no forward was arriving.

Our supporters celebrated his arrival because he was going spend millions like Man City and but when he sells to buy like Bk they pretend it part of a master plan. And "we're doing it right way".

And the fans judgement baffles me at times. Lukaku and Barkley not rated by many. Schneirdlin, Keane and at one time McCarthy, all loved unconditionally. Why? Just judge people's contribution fairly.

Andy 307

Pickford guaranteed to be England's number 1? Explain then why he's third or fourth choice now.

Also no top keeper is under 6'-1" like him. He's made two mistakes in one game. That's joe Hart-esque! He's palmed shots straight to the striker's feet before as well. I'll reserve judgement.

When he has had world class performances regularly like the keepers you mention and gets his mistakes down to two or three a season, the hype maybe justified.

Don Alexander
347 Posted 12/09/2017 at 23:05:29
Brian Harrison (#336), due respect, Simeone is a good manager in a league dominated by just two teams. I've watched a lot of Atletico but I have to say Simeone strikes me as unadventurous in the four games a year that truly matter. He might be an improvement though.

The Atletico scouting team would deffo be an improvement. They've signed Aguero, Costa and Griezmann in succession up front, a defence that's as tight as a duck's whatsit, two great keepers in Oblak and Courtois, and a productive and pressing midfield for many a year.

And they're presumably on the same planet as Walsh and whoever else at Finch Farm.

Brian Wilkinson
348 Posted 12/09/2017 at 00:04:32
Ok let's look deeper into the reign of Ronnie: Appointed and said squad unfit, fair comment, judged Niasse on just a couple of pre season games, wanted a couple of windows which he has had and what do we have,nearly every former player'moved on.

Fair play got rid of a lot of the dead wood, the players he has brought in get shoehorned into the team playing out of position, no width, no dimension, Martina playing instead of Kenny, Davies playing in an overrun midfield, Calvert Lewin playing on the wing when he does get a game.

Is it just a coincidence that the three players he has problems with are players he has not bought in Niasse, Barkley and. Mirallas, yet Williams is exempt from any blame, oh yes one of Ronnie's signings.

Until Ronnie starts playing players in the right positions and benching some instead of trying to fit all his signings in then it will get worse before it gets better.

There's no doubt with the first team and the Under-23s, we should be able to field a balanced team. Somehow I do not see Ronnie dropping his players any time soon.

Paul Ferry
349 Posted 13/09/2017 at 05:06:26
Oliver (#310) – loved that. Great comeback... just tone it down a bit, mate. Take care.
Paul A Smith
350 Posted 13/09/2017 at 08:13:56
Brian (#336) are you suggesting that we don't sack Koeman without a replacement lined up just because the fans are using the same theory over strikers? I hope not because its not the same but why else would you think its normal to look for a replacement manager first?

I am sure Koeman would find out about this with such a massive staff around him. 'Adequate' also suggests you would keep a big name who has basically been poor, until another big name comes along? Thank god your not in charge mate because that makes no sense whatsoever.

There could be reasons off the pitch within a poor run worth sacking a manager for, ie, players not liking them. Do you keep a man in charge under them circumstances? Maybe they love him and again we don't know but the theory of adequate is flawed.

I also don't see Unsworth getting the job unless the board go fully erect for a battle with the top teams. Nobody can tell me anything is different from before and if a man the fans can relate was in charge, the board would have to deliver far more intent.

The board will hire a puppet to keep us within the top half and deliver textbook interviews after games. Do this board even know if there is another Poccettino or Mourinho out there? If they did they would have looked past the dim character of Koeman and got a man like Silva.

Eddie Dunn
351 Posted 13/09/2017 at 08:34:34
Seems to me that the club simply don't want to spend money. They would rather wait for Bolasie and Coleman to get fit to provide width.

Mirallas has only been kept as back-up in case we have a Europa League run. Moshiri and our board have failed us badly.

Lukaku has been allowed to leave before an adequate replacement has been brought in.

There is obviously less money available than we all thought... perhaps it is going on wages or towards the new ground. Or perhaps the next manager will need a warchest?

Martin Mason
352 Posted 13/09/2017 at 08:47:35
I watched Man Utd last night and they are a League above us. Width, pace skill and 5 or 6 potential scorers. They also have the best striker in the game, fat lazy bastard though.

That's the difference a good manager can make. We don't have one.

Tony Marsh
353 Posted 13/09/2017 at 08:49:11
Eddie @351

New ground? Ha ha – you still dreaming that will happen, mate? Not with this crowd in charge, it won't!!! We would be better off selling the land and using the money for a tier on the Park End stand.

Alan Smith
354 Posted 13/09/2017 at 09:24:34
Man Utd look class. Young team too all about 6'-3" throughout the spine and only 24 years old. And pace everywhere. The future is Man Utd, Man City and PSG.

I remember our fans loving Koeman's hard arse straight talking: "If Niasse wants to play football, he has to go." "Barkley will sign or be sold."

It was ridiculous at the time. I'm just glad everyone can how ridiculous it is now. What's the bets they end up our two highest scorers?

I'd go the top 3 if I was a betting man.

Phil Walling
355 Posted 13/09/2017 at 09:43:43
A big club would have been able to keep two of last night's goalscorers. Only when we can do so will we be able to re-claim that status!
Craig Walker
356 Posted 13/09/2017 at 09:58:04
I was excited when we got Koeman. A world class player and someone who wouldn't take any grief from players. I'd seen his team be two goals down to the RS and win 3-2 despite having to sell his best players.

He'd sort out our defensive frailties and bring in some Dutch-like flair. Suddenly we were linked with players like Mata and it all looked rosy.

A year later and we just look very Moyesesque. We don't compete against the Sky 6 and are weak away from home. We are too pedestrian, lack flair and severely lack goals.

I'm very patient with our managers. I gave Martinez more time than most purely because of that first season where in patches we played some of the best football I've seen us play since the first Kendall era. However, I'm starting to think that Koeman is not a good fit for Everton FC. He's spent money on players who don't add anything.

I don't want to see promising talent in the U23s or "one for the future". I want to see speed on the wings, a goal-getting central midfield player and a forward who knows where the goal is.

Why can 30 odd thousand supporters see our frailties but a succession of managers be oblivious to where we need improvement? It's almost like the history of our great club puts managers under a spell where they feel the need to survive and settle for dull, uninspiring, keep-it-tight football.

The one break we had from that was Martinez and he was the polar opposite. Too gung-ho, frail and unable to see the weakness in an ageing Tim Howard.

If Koeman can't get it right by Christmas (and I suspect that Europa League football will be detrimental to our Premier League position again) then I'd like to see Unsworth given a chance with a more experienced number two alongside him. T

he only other experienced manager I would consider would be Benitez. I don't like the guy or his RS associations and disparaging comments in the past but he has won trophies and been successful and that's something that our club hasn't done for too long.

Daniel Lim
357 Posted 13/09/2017 at 10:20:27
Darren @333

You did not dream that, I was there watching us got thrashed 4-0 by mighty Bolton in 2005-06. I thought McFadden scored but no, he was offside.

Thomas Lennon
358 Posted 13/09/2017 at 10:31:13
Realistically Kowman has had 8-9 games with a team that are mostly 'his'. Last season was mostly a 'shoring up' exercise as we got few players in. Arguably Stek & Williams were stop-gaps intended to strengthen a terrible defense. Likewise Gana though he has a better future. A youngster and one defensive midfielder plus two important injuries saw us fade at the end of the season, but defensively we were vastly improved.

Now we have a team & squad that is very different and have won 5, drawn 1 lost 2. Not bad considering the 2 defeats where high quality teams. Two out of three of the teams that are looking like they are at peak quality this season and will challenge for the title. We are nowhere near of course but still early days in the context I am outlining.

Minimum requirement this season is an improvement on last season: more points, longer runs in the major cups, failure to get that puts pressure on Koeman and I think he will be gone. I think we will see big improvements in playing style once we are playing bottom 15 clubs – probably by Xmas.

Unsworth for first team manager? No – try someone who has coached clubs at the top level, Moshiri needs a figurehead to use to sell his dream to those financiers who will fund our stadium.

George McKane
359 Posted 13/09/2017 at 10:47:12
I watched The Bolton 4-0 in a little bar near The Duomo in Florence. I was on my own, my wife was in our little rented apartment near to The Uffizzi, and asked the barman could I watch it? He gave me the remote and said I could click on any Premier League game.

So there I was watching us getting battered and a man and a woman walked in the bar, so there were 3 of us. I nodded a sort of hello and then they guy asked the barman could he switch games (in English). I said I was watching the game... fair enough.

But then I asked who did he support? – The Baggies –he was on his honeymoon in Florence and just wanted to see the game.

We flicked from one game to the other... he was on his honeymoon; I was researching for a film I was making about Dante's Divine Comedy. I saw enough in the game to give me some ideas. Interesting game football?

Chris Gould
360 Posted 13/09/2017 at 10:48:10
I agree, Thomas. I think what you have said is very sensible.

Koeman has been badly let down by a board that replaced Lukaku on the cheap with Rooney and Sandro. They ignored Koeman's pleas for a striker who could play as his target man in the Pelle mould.

We are now left with a disfunctional unit as Calvert-Lewin is not ready to lead the line. He simply isn't!

Obviously Koeman rates him as he has tried to give him as much first team minutes as possible while not putting too much pressure on him. Kane was 23/24 when he broke into Spurs' first team consistently.

Calvert-Lewin is only 20 and simply doesn't have the experience. He could do with a season in the Championship. Unfortunately we are left with little option but to throw him in at the deep end and it isn't good enough. It's clear Koeman doesn't want to do that for the good of the player. Too much responsibility and pressure for a lad that isn't ready.

Lukaku scored 25 goals and still got abuse for apparently not being good enough. Calvert-Lewin will get written off and abused by the less patient and unforgiving fans that we all know are among us. Many haunt this site.

As for Unsworth; he's unproven and is a nobody on the global stage. Like Thomas said, Mosh will want a name to sell our big plans.

Paul Kelly
361 Posted 13/09/2017 at 11:26:14
Sorry, Chris, you mention Ronny boy playing Calvert-Lewin without putting too much pressure on him, I think playing him at wing back was pressure enough, though he did cross for the goal against Stoke, didn't he?

As for Calvert-Lewin not being ready, he did well enough against city only to be moved again, to the wing in the next match, then dropped all together. If a player has a stormer, they're riding on a crest of a wave, keep them in, playing well breeds confidence.

Will he replace Lukaku? His goals? Probably not, but at the moment he's the best we've got, but all that is irrelevant if Ronny don't change tactics and formation, we're in for a long season if he persists with playing #10a, #10b and #10c all in the starting line up.

I believe Sandro, Klaassen and Sigurdffon should be introduced gradually, definitely the former two, until they get up to pace with the league.

Steve Brown
362 Posted 13/09/2017 at 11:29:27
Saturday was a perfect storm of a new team playing its fourth league game together, eight new players to integrate, key players like Schneiderlin dropping their levels, poor team selection, tactical mistakes, an unbalanced transfer policy and missed targets in critical positions.

If you asked everyone at the club to put their hands up if they had a part to play in that mess, how many would be able to keep their hands down? To hook all that around Koeman's neck is way too early, so let's all vent, then breath in and re-evaluate In December.

He earned a breathing space through clearing up the mess that Martinez left and getting into the Europa League. He has to radically rethink his tactical approach to top six games though, stop trying to pack his mismatched signings into a first team selection and bring dynamism into the team with Calvert-Lewin, Davies and Lookman.

Chris Gould
363 Posted 13/09/2017 at 11:35:56
Paul, playing Calvert-Lewin out wide was a way of getting him game time without the pressure of being our main goal threat. He isn't ready to lead the line and playing out wide gives him less responsibility and allows him to make mistakes. Rashford has done it at Man Utd, and still often plays there now. Eventually he'll play down the middle.

Koeman obviously knows his best position but has been trying to protect him.

Paul Kelly
364 Posted 13/09/2017 at 11:51:12
I see your point in that it would've taken the pressure off him being our main goal threat, but to give him game time at wingback? I'm not sure if that was the correct decision.

Davies could of played there, Martina maybe more suited to that position (can attack and cross but not as good on the back foot) and what of Kenny, watched that lad in the U20s World Cup and he was, well, fuck me shit hot (hope he makes the step up soon). Maybe Ron don't think he's ready and that's a discussion for another thread.

Calvert-Lewin is showing enough promise to get a few starts, certainly more so than Sandro, but, as mentioned earlier, it's all pie in the sky if we play the same tactics as the last couple of games.

Kim Vivian
365 Posted 13/09/2017 at 12:08:56
I wonder, when Koeman experimentally played Calvert-Lewin as a wingback, did he have his mind on Victor Moses's transition and role at Chelsea?
Amit Vithlani
366 Posted 13/09/2017 at 12:16:46
Chris Gould @ 360,

"I agree, Thomas. I think what you have said is very sensible.

Koeman has been badly let down by a board that replaced Lukaku on the cheap with Rooney and Sandro. They ignored Koeman's pleas for a striker who could play as his target man in the Pelle mould."

Cannot Agree at All. Some facts for you:

1. Rooney in his post match interview against Stoke said he and Koeman had been speaking since January. Koeman publicly declared his admiration for Rooney at the same time.

2. Koeman had Sigurdsson on his short list as his No 1 transfer target. He admitted it and the Echo carried a piece that Koeman had prized Sigurdsson from Day 1.

He chose two players whom he, the Board and Walsh invested a great deal of effort in securing.

Why did he not prioritise a like-for-like replacement for Lukaku with the same or greater urgency?

After all, Koeman admitted when he joined that Lukaku would be gone after a year.

No, I am afraid you cannot lay the blame on the board for Koeman's lack of proper prioritisation.

You can blame them for plenty of other stuff – idiotic media appearances, the clubby, chummy demeanour, making grandiose statements, but on the failure to bring in Lukaku's replacement that particular turd rests at Koeman's door. He should have worked on what was good for the team as opposed to his own personal preferences.

Being at Finch Farm on transfer deadline day might also have allowed him to do better tactically against Spurs with the £150m resources at his disposal.

Craig Walker
367 Posted 13/09/2017 at 12:42:01
If Moshiri wanting a name like Koeman so that it attracts players of the calibre of Davy Klaassen (early days, but I've got a bad feeling on this one) then it's not exactly paying off.

Personally, I would sooner see Unsworth in charge and let him put faith in the kids coupled with knowledge of what it means to play for this club. Koeman didn't exactly attract a big-name centre-forward did he?

Stekelenburg, Williams, Bolasie, Klaassen, Martina and Sandro are not looking like money well spent to me. Schneiderlin's performances are going backwards in more ways than one. I'll reserve judgement on Sigurdsson but we surely would have been better investing that money in a world-class striker.

I'm hoping it's early days and we'll find our feet against some of the lesser teams but I just don't see goals in this team. Rooney is still our only Premier League scorer this season.

Tony Everan
368 Posted 13/09/2017 at 14:17:09
Amit is right, it was a simple question of priorities. We have replaced the Premier League's second-best striker with nobody.

We have an abundance of midfielders (Sandro looks like someone who plays off a striker, not a natural centre-forward)... but nobody to lead the line,

Instead of being the making of Calvert-Lewin, the decision could be the breaking of him. He is great but far too young to lead the line as centre-forward every week.

They need to have a board meeting and realise the calamitous decision-making will decimate our season and sack the buffoon who allowed it to happen, then right the wrongs asap in January, even if it is a stop-gap until next summer.

Paul A Smith
369 Posted 13/09/2017 at 14:36:03
Amit. They are all to blame. Koeman tells them how the team works. The lot of them are Mickey Mouse performers.

Everybody within that group dealing with money and transfers know exactly how much is to spend. Koeman uses that money to get what he needs, or he should. Last week he said he thought we had our Number One striker target. When? When did he start thinking this?

Don't believe for one second that Koeman is not a spokesman for the board. Giroud said weeks back he wanted to stay and fight for his place, no bid went in and no talks with the player so when on earth did he think he had that target?

Then there was the Barkley statement (and he has realised we need Barkley now). He told the press "We thought we would have had some bids for Barkley by now."

That to me said, the long negotiation over Sigurdsson has been down to the fact I haven't got rid of Barkley yet. This was when he should have pulled out of Swansea talks and bought a striker. He had that choice. He is well aware of what we can spend. He is well aware of what we need.

He was still hinting we need a centre-back and left-back cover weeks after splashing on players for next year (Onyekuru).

The club is beyond crazy.

Will Mabon
370 Posted 13/09/2017 at 16:51:56
Paul, I agree with what you're saying, but it's not necessarily based on craziness. Sometimes it aids the purpose to look a little haphazard, in the same way that the government likes to appear as an eccentric uncle when it suits... "Didn't foresee the consequences" etc.

If anyone thinks the club is in any sort of disarray at board level, with internal misunderstandings about finance available for players and sales policy (wild phone calls to TalkSport or not), then I'd have to say, I seriously doubt it.

Jay Harris
371 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:14:39
We can criticize Ron for selection and tactics but please get this straight: he has no part in negotiating to get a player. That is all down to Bill and Elstone.

Koeman was pushing the board like hell this last month to get him a striker. So to blame him for not getting a striker and the consequent problems with an unbalanced squad is grossly unfair.

He joined "the project" to win things and was promised full funding and support which has not happened. He has not been supported in the Barkley fiasco and let down badly in the striker department. Keeping a player that wants away causes morale problems.

All of this smells of Bill's conniving methods and it would not surprise me if that proved to be the case.

Martin Mason
372 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:27:28
Jay, what does Kenwright get out of spoiling the search for a striker? Do you really believe that he'd go out of his way to weaken the team by "conniving"? You obviously believe that this is also a decision that can be taken by him, I certainly don't. You are firmly in TW conspiracy theory Central.

For me the far most likely reality is that the club tried to buy a replacement of the standard of Lukaku and failed. The most likely strategy to adapt when that happens is to make do with what you have got until the right striker becomes available.

It is just not credible that the club had found the correct person and Bogey Man Bill blocked it. It's even less credible that we didn't buy a striker because we didn't have the money, just pure fantasy speculation.

Gordon Roberts
373 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:35:25
Jay Harris (#371),

Great observation, the internal processes at EFC captured succinctly. We as supporters should be afforded a forum to questions the board at regular intervals. For all who are calling for Koeman's head, members of the board are equally culpable.

Many have been critical of our manager for spending transfer deadline day on the golf course in Portugal. At least we knew what he was up to (due to the power of social media). However, as supporters, we are in the dark in regard to what board members charged with getting deals over the line were up to. The communication and PR strategy at Everton is woeful.

Steve Brown
374 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:41:58
It amazes me we are writing off Klaassen, Bolasie, Sandro already, even Martina.

Reid, Southall, Heath, Sharp, Ratcliffe all had shaky starts to their Everton careers and went on to become legends.

How many games have the four of them combined played for us?

Sometimes I think we all have pretty short memories. Give them a chance for Christ sake.

James Hughes
375 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:44:01
Martin, Boys Pen Billy does have a track record of promising funds and not delivering on the promise. He is also still in charge of transfers.

You are right to ask what he would gain by blocking a big money transfer of a striker. Maybe old habits die hard and the thought of spending even more money had him worried.

Barkley not sold, this was going to cost the club directly. His arms got further away from his pockets and his nuts shrivelled to the size of grapes.

Then again maybe no fucker wanted to sign for us and that was why Koeman spent TDD on the golf course in Portugal, not on the phone to Jim White.

Will Mabon
376 Posted 13/09/2017 at 17:55:39
"His arms got further away from his pockets and his nuts shrivelled to the size of grapes. "

In warm weather, mine swell to that size.

John Pierce
377 Posted 13/09/2017 at 18:03:48
Sorry guys but, if Ron wanted a centre forward and left sided defender as much as he so cravenly told any passing journo or camera pointed at him, then his energies should have been directed at badgering the transfer team.

Instead he bleated to the media weeks before the deadline and did what? Bleat some more so the viewing public were in no doubt it wasn't his fault.

A clear exercise in exoneration, which led to him losing interest in the project and it shows. He all but threw the Chelsea game. And spent the lead up and post the Spurs game telling anyone who wanted to know we are miles away. Tell us something we don't know, Ron!

If he really wanted those players he'd have hounded the transfer guys until he got what he wanted. It's not like Ronald isn't a bold enough personality or blunt enough to get his point across.

His time on the golf course on deadline day hinted at his own capitulation and short-termism attitude towards the role.

Convinced am I that he thought his next stop was the Arsenal, with Wenger screwing his legacy up that when it didn't happen he reluctantly took Everton on as quick leg up. He didn't bank on us being a truly contrary, obdurate football club did he?

Well I think we have a guy not committed to the role, I think he's a limited coach, who without Lukaku last season to save him would have been gone by now.

Just think last season when Rom didn't score or wasn't interested we look like, erm, we do this season, moribund and clueless.

Koeman needs to be replaced, and quickly before we are looking at another season of monster transition.

Paul A Smith
378 Posted 13/09/2017 at 18:18:42
Will (#370). That's what my point basically is, mate.

I don't believe their in disarray at all I think they were all in whatever went on or decided, together.

John Pierce opened my eyes there. Could be a wild theory but I forgot about the Arsenal link. Was Koeman buying players before anybody knew of Wenger's fate though?

Paul Ferry
379 Posted 13/09/2017 at 18:44:33
Mark Morrissey (#215):  "he's lost the fans already."

Really? I don't think so. You been doing some mass interviewing and counting Mark? I can't stand these sweeping crude generalizations by self-appointed fans' spokespersons.

I was very taken by Stan Schofield's observation from inside The Old Lady (#150): 'Regarding ToffeeWeb, the opinions on here reflect a different animal from the crowd at Goodison Park'.

Don't talk for the fans, Mark, especially when you are talking rubbish based on a thread/site that – for what its worth talking to my many Evertonian mates – does not reflect wider opinions, not least because there is a tendency for certain Koeman snipers to take over threads.

But not this one, I see from roughy half-way in. Absolute top-notch post Jack (Convery) @233.

Martin Mason
380 Posted 13/09/2017 at 18:54:35
Gordon @373, there is a forum for fans to access the board. You as a fan have no rights to ask for anything more than you have now.

James @375, Isn't Kenwright at most looking after the negotiating process with Elstone the CEO. He isn't really "in charge of transfers" and I believe he would answer to Elstone and Moshiri in all dealings. When you say Kenwright has a track record of not delivering on promised funds, what would that be? He actually didn't promise funds for Kings Dock.

Again, for any Conspiracy theorists blaming Kenwright for us not getting a striker I ask, how could he possibly do this and what possible benefit would he have in doing so?

Will Mabon
381 Posted 13/09/2017 at 18:55:41
Slowly, gradually, as more and more people post their thoughts of what's been happening, on and off the pitch, it seems a veil has slipped and we're seeing beyond. I think the growing discontent confirms that we're in a very different position than we hoped about 15 months ago.

This whole "Project" is now mired in controversy and speculation about relationships, finances, transfer policy, staff roles, management futures, and unfathomable intentions on the field. Odd public utterances from more than one source... from professionals?

What kind of a new start is this? Another world in just more than a season. An extremely wealthy, accomplished businessman would preside over this? And yet, amidst it all, the books balanced just so. Something ain't right. This is absolutely not what we were "Sold".

I'm very suspicious.

James Hughes
382 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:00:53
I thought the Kings Dock money was ring-fenced? Must be another rumour, silly me.
Stan Schofield
383 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:23:58
Martin@380: You always have a right to ask. But you don't necessarily have a right to receive what you've asked for. What's the old saying, if you don't ask, you don't get?
Martin Mason
384 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:28:35
James, what Kenwright said was that if the capital was raised to go ahead with the development that it would be ring-fenced for the development alone. It was in response to a question from a journalist who suggested that if Everton could raise that amount of cash it would likely get spent on players. Read up about the failure to raise the £30M, Kenwright was shafted and £30M was never remotely enough to do the business anyway.

Will @381, What you see as happening isn't really happening because none of us know what is happening inside the club and the club doesn't air it's business. Into this information vacuum is sucked rumour, speculation, innuendo and conspiracy theories. For sure we should have worries, that is natural but no need to lose our marbles. We should look only at facts and what are these? We're not performing well at any level, we didn't get a replacement for Lukaku.

For sure we all have opinions, and I genuinely value that but first thing we need to establish are the facts as best we can. Then our opinions, could they withstand a challenge? Somebody once defined opinion as being like kids and farts – only okay if they are yours.

Darren Hind
385 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:38:52
It's amazing how Koeman was getting praised to the roof tops early in the window when we were signing what many of his followers believed to be top class players.

Now they are claiming he doesn't have anything to do with transfers. It's nonsense. He has identified £200m worth of players and the board have backed him to the hilt. We all knew a long time ago that we needed a centre-forward yet Koeman was blowing the kitty on average midfield players who will never create or score enough.

So, if the latest excuses are to have any credibility at all and Koeman does not have anything to do with transfers... what the fuck is he doing here?

If he is here purely to stink out stadiums all over England with his anti-football and his half witted tactics, why do we need him? Why would you make him one of the highest earning managers in the world if that is all he has to offer? Get him to fuck.

Stan Schofield
387 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:47:50
Although what has happened with transfers is disappointing, it's not really surprising. There's always been the possibility that Moshiri recruited Koeman because of his apparent skill, based on his performance at Southampton, at maximising a team's performance and results whilst avoiding a large net spend on players, including (at Southampton) a net income because of player sales.

In this sense, selling the likes of Lukaku would of course be seen as a major source of income whilst still maximising performance and results, using Koeman's supposed skill to make best use of the players at his disposal. The only problem is, it doesn't seem to be working out that way, so Moshiri could well be reviewing Koeman's performance with a view to replacing him sooner rather than later.

It's easy to imagine a similar situation being the case in Mordor, Klopp's record at Dortmund being one of getting great performances without massive spend. Perhaps that also isn't quite working out as their owners intended.

There's always hope that Moshiri's ambitions for the club are massive, with spending to match, but that's all it is, hope. It's not something we could ever 'reasonably expect'.

Tony Hill
388 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:50:06
John (#377) and Will (#381) express my fears and feelings. We're in deep trouble because we've lost spirit throughout. You can feel it, you can sense that we're a club out of joint and badly so.

I don't know why it's happened but it seems to me to be a rational inference that the board and manager/football staff are not united. We have no-one to take charge.

I am seriously worried because I do not buy the story that we'll steady things after the tough run of fixtures, nor do I accept that we have the luxury of allowing things to develop over the next 8 months.

Batten down the hatches.

Stephen Brown
389 Posted 13/09/2017 at 19:53:40
If, by some miracle, we beat Man Utd on Saturday then 7 points from first 5 games probably would have been acceptable before start of the season!! – ever the optimist!

Let's hope all at the club have (I hate this saying) learnt some lessons over the last week!!

Tony Marsh
390 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:02:14
Lukaku was sold on the cheap, quickly and without a fight. If Koeman had any pull, why didn't he say to the board "Romelu stays until at least January unless we have two strikers in place – proven strikers with age on their side"?

No, our manager allowed the Premier League's second-best striker to go as soon as Man Utd clicked there fingers. Now, as Lukaku scores for fun, we struggle like fuck for goals. What a joke.

Didn't Koeman realise Lukaku was the only reason we finished top half last season? Where are Romelu's 25 goals going to come from now? Absolutely fucking ridiculous the way we let Lukaku leave the way he did. Other club's said No regarding selling their top players – why not us?

All those Blues who slagged off Romelu Lukaku when he was here – just wait and see what happens on Sunday... I have no doubt a hat-trick is coming our way. Guess some don't appreciate what they have in till it's gone. Man Utd fans I know can't believe we did a part-ex for Rooney and let Lukaku go... Neither can I.

Will Mabon
391 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:03:11
"Will@381, What you see as happening isn't really happening because none of us know what is happening inside the club and the club doesn't air it's business."

Of course we don't have the facts or open days to the boardroom. What we do have are many signs that things are not working as mostly smoothly as they should, people not communicating in public as they should (or shouldn't), and a very poor outlook on the field – all-in-all, a rather large reverse on the new dawn anticipated and alluded to.

I'm not seeing the kind of leadership or reflection of it, that all thought was almost a given when Moshiri took control. One season down of a project to get into the Champions League, and we're short of pivotal players after bringing in 13? Something's not as it appears.

I should say: as it's meant to appear.

Will Mabon
392 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:05:50
"There's always been the possibility that Moshiri recruited Koeman because of his apparent skill, based on his performance at Southampton, at maximising a team's performance and results whilst avoiding a large net spend on players, including (at Southampton) a net income because of player sales. "

Now we're getting near it.

Martin Nicholls
393 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:05:58
Stephen (#389) – it would indeed be a miracle we beat Man Utd on Saturday!
Stan Schofield
394 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:28:46
Tony@390: The phrase 'you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone' is one I used on here when Lukaku was still with us.

I hoped that Moshiri and the board would see someone like Lukaku as too valuable to sell before July 2019, perhaps even thinking they'd assess his value to us over the next two years as greater than the loss of potential transfer fee that would result from his leaving on a free after July 2019. I hoped, but didn't really expect it.

I saw it as a test of Moshiri's real ambition. I now see that ambition as simply getting us as a consistent 'contender', getting Koeman to do a 'Southampton' with us on a consistent basis, with the Premier League and Champions League gravy train that would result. Not necessarily being bothered about actually winning anything, although that would be seen as 'icing on the cake' if we did win something.

But it doesn't even seem to be working that way, to getting us as a 'contender', let alone winning anything. I could be wrong, and hope I am. [There's that 'hope' again.]

Michael Kenrick
395 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:30:15
Darren, you claim in your typically overstated fashion that the Board has backed Koeman "to the hilt". Yet no replacement striker and no left-sided defender, which (in your hyperbolic parlance) every man and his dog knew Koeman wanted.

But you want the failure of not bringing these players in to be all Koeman's fault, so you have to have Koeman as central to the failed transfers, despite indications to the contrary.

Chris Leyland
396 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:35:28
Well said, Michael. I think it is fair to blame Koeman for a lot of what goes on on the pitch and the disorganised and disjointed line-ups of late but to blame him for transfer failures when it isn't his fault is ridiculous. The board have let us (and Koeman) down by not signing a striker. The manager made it clear on numerous occasions that he needed one.
Martin Mason
397 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:42:51
Darren Hind @385, Koeman is head coach – not manager or Director of Football. He doesn't identify targets only states his requirements.

Chris @396, which strikers capable of replacing Lukaku, better than what we had, were available during the window?

Brian Harrison
398 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:51:13
I think the football world has changed; in the Catterick, Shankly, Clough era they negotiated with the player and the selling clubs. But now everything has changed – even Mourhino didn't get all his targets.

So, while some of the blame can be laid at Koeman's door, I think others within the club have to share the blame as well. Seems that they thought they had Giroud in the bag but that didn't turn out to be the case. Look how long it took to tie up the Sigurdsson deal.

Also, players seem to have all the power – can you imagine some of the managers I mentioned allowing Costa to basically go on strike till he got his way? Mind you, have to question why his manager would text him to say he is not in his plans. Maybe he thought the Lukaku deal was tied up.

Man City thought they had Sanchez and they would have but the lad from Monaco refused to sign for Arsenal.

So it's not only us that didn't get the targets we needed.

Stan Schofield
399 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:51:23
I agree with Michael and Chris that Koeman wasn't at fault for not securing those players he wanted, although he has big faults in other respects.

Maybe Moshiri pulled the wool over his eyes to get him here last year, with false promises, and of course the big salary, all the while intending to use him 'Southampton style with knobs on' (because Everton is, after all, seen as bigger than Southampton, with more consistent profit potential).

If that is the case, Moshiri simply took a business risk as people like him take, and if Koeman isn't quite delivering on Moshiri's expectations, then of course he'll get rid, probably fairly soon.

Colin Glassar
400 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:51:29
Tony Marsh, spot on. Even Jose said they would've paid £150m for Lukaku if Everton had held out.

On this, I'm not blaming Koeman but our chief negotiator who probably wet his kecks when he heard that Man Utd were offering £75m plus add-ons.

Stan Schofield
401 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:54:31
Colin, yes, which makes me question the business acumen of Moshiri and company, even though I'm no businessman.
Brent Stephens
402 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:56:04
But Colin, what Mourinho says we might just take with a pinch of salt? To say he screwed us is maybe just his way of trying to make us look dumb and make him seem the wise one.
Tony Marsh
403 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:56:43
Nearly every other voice on here is either blaming the board or Koeman for not replacing Lukaku with another striker... Why?? The issue is letting our goal machine Lukaku leave in the first place. That is the fuck up.

This is why we are are useless and Man Utd are flying. Who sanctioned the Lukaku to Man Utd deal? That's what you should be querying. Not the lack of replacements. FFS.

Colin Glassar
404 Posted 13/09/2017 at 20:57:09
Stan, that's what makes me believe that Kenwright's continuing to run the show and Moshiri just signs the cheques. I hope I'm wrong.
Kim Vivian
405 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:07:39
Martin (#397). Please confirm for me who identified Sigurdsson, and maybe Klassen as well.
Anthony Hughes
406 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:22:08
Looking at how the fees rose for some players as the transfer window unfolded, letting Lukaku go for £75m looks like chicken feed. We could have got upwards of £120m if we would have held on longer. It absolutely smacks of get Lukaku out early so we've got the cash to spend, sell-to-buy.

How much really has Moshiri put in the pot for transfers? Apart from player sales and the huge TV deal I doubt it's a great deal.

Martin Mason
407 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:24:18
Kim @405,I can't because, like you, I have no idea. I would though assume that Koeman and Walsh speak to each other over players that may be available and that it would be a joint effort.
Amit Vithlani
408 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:30:41
Michael @ 395. Wayne Rooney's words – no-one else's – that he had been talking to Koeman (not Moshiri, Kenwright or anyone else) since January.

If Koeman did not want Rooney, he would not have spoken to him.

He wanted Rooney and got him, the club paying significant wages in the process.

Koeman wanted Sigurdsson and got him, the club paying a significant fee in the process.

Rooney's wages and Sigurdsson's transfer fee could have landed us a replacement for Lukaku, had a No 9 been prioritised over two No 10s.

Kim Vivian
410 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:33:44
Indeed Martin. I personally believe Koeman has a significant role in identifying who the board might go after, and indeed, sanctioning or vetoing certain targets.
Eddie Dunn
411 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:34:31
It seems to me that Koeman has consistently said that he doesn't do the deals... he obviously confers with Walsh and then the board do the business.

There are obviously communication problems at EFC. I am fed-up with the tactics, the selections and the unbalanced squad but recruitment? I can't lay that on Koeman's door.

He was under the impression that Giroud was a done deal. How different the start of the season might have been!

Sam Hoare
412 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:45:45
To spend as much as we did and still have such an unbalanced squad with such a lack of genuine striking options is pretty indefensible. We'll likely never know who exactly is most culpable but likely no-one is blameless in the Koeman, Moshiri, Kenwright triangle.
Stan Schofield
413 Posted 13/09/2017 at 21:58:09
Although the squad looks unbalanced, and blame for this is probably shared amongst owners and management, I think it's an academic point at the moment. By this, I mean tha,t even if we had got what Koeman supposedly wanted (Giroud or whoever), we would still be performing erratically, because of Koeman's lack of tactical nous.

His lack of tactical nous probably means we need a new manager who does have better tactical nous (and better man-management skills), and no doubt Moshiri will get rid.

But, even if we have a new manager who performs to Moshiri's expectations, it's unlikely to propel us to winning trophies, more likely merely making us a 'contender' club that looks capable of winning trophies without actually achieving it. Much like the lot across the park.

Leigh Hardie
414 Posted 13/09/2017 at 22:03:08
And to rub salt in the wounds, United fans have got a better Lukaku song than the 'Skip to the loo' ditty of ours. Sung to the tune of a Stone Roses classic...

https://twitter.com/Sporf/status/907931339915218944?s=08

Tom Bowers
415 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:00:44
Personally I think it's always the manager who identifies the players he wants as he knows the strategy they will fit into. That strategy may not always be successful and the manager puts his job on the line by what he puts out on the field and the results thereafter.

The last 2 results have been bad and I am sure he is the first to feel the heat but some of his starting selections must also feel the heat soon if things don't change. The lack of mobility going forward is the biggest problem and the teams that finished above them last season will exploit that ruthlessly as we have seen so far.

I suppose we can all be optimistic and say, after a ''few'' more games when they have settled in, the new boys will start to show why they were brought in and I think that will be fair to Koeman too.

Just looking at the next few Premier League fixtures after Sunday, there are opportunities on paper for things to ''gel'' but honestly all games in the Premier League are tough.

Soren Moyer
416 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:11:38
Sack Him NOW before its too late. Get Thomas Tuchel in as he is available now.
John Pierce
417 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:12:55
Michael, 395.

Whilst trying to exonerate Koeman for the boards failure to capture the players he's whinged on about might be fair dos. However..

But don't you miss the point? Our season hinges on a manager who cannot see a way to win agame without a bean pole centre forward and utility LB/CB.

Does this not strike you as worrying?

Saving Ronald from this particular accusation is laudable but he is at fault for much of the poor football Everton have produced for almost 15months. In which time he had a 25 goal forward and several left backs he either sent out on loan or sold.

The lack of those two players, simply do not add up to the tripe he's served us under his tenure.

The question that hits me square in the face is with two away games in 4 days, and a truely crinimal away record under Koeman, that the Sunderland & Bournemouth at home will be two very hostile games.

Thrilling times at Everton. 👀

Michael Kenrick
418 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:13:30
We seem to be getting tied up in knots here. Bearing in mind we know next to nothing about the mysterious mechanisms of transfers, let's consider the following:

The manager / coach probably identifies areas of his squad that are thin.

The manager / coach may have specific players in mind, and he may discuss same with the Director of Football.

The manager / coach very probably talks directly with targeted players (with permission if required) to discuss things like 'philosophy', where and how often they will get to play, life in leafy Cheshire, etc.

The transfer team (not the manager; probably not the Board) actually does all the grunt work to get the transfer to happen: negotiations with agents, drawing up contracts, arranging medicals, filing the Premier League registration, etc. (Note: not the manager or coach.)

At some point, someone from the Board obviously sanctions the huge outlay involved, and probably has a say on contract terms.

Of course the manager is involved in the process. Is he responsible for every part of the process? Absolutely not.

Michael Kenrick
419 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:17:29
And Lukaku left because he wanted to and the club must have agreed not to stand in his way. Pointless screaming and yelling and stamping yer feet, Tony Marsh (#403). Koeman had failed to get him Champions League. Lukaku was leaving and nothing would have stopped him.

John Pierce: see Chris Leyland's succinct analysis at #396.

Jay Harris
420 Posted 13/09/2017 at 23:36:40
As far as we are given to understand, Lukaku was told he could leave if the club didn't get Champions League last season.
It was reported that Martinez and Kenwright had given him some sort of gentleman's agreement.

I also maintain that Kenwright was behind Rooney's return following Duncan Ferguson's testimonial. Koeman wanted Barkley out because he said he wasn't signing his contract. Koeman would say Rooney's a good player. He's not going to say he is way past his best now, is he? It seems to me that Koeman is not the type to take interference lightly and has washed his hands of it.

Now before Martin starts with his staunch defense of Bill that is only my feeling at the moment because that would go a long way to explaining the disinterest and soulless display on the pitch unlike last season when we had a really good home record and. Europa place.

Gordon Crawford
421 Posted 14/09/2017 at 01:54:17
I hope we get a positive reaction tonight, I really do. It's been such a crap start to the season.

And with all the ex-Evertonians scoring in the Champions League, I could do with a cheering up.

COYB

Darren Hind
422 Posted 14/09/2017 at 04:02:19
Come on, guys, you are not suggesting a world-renowned figure, one famous for "telling it like it is", has actually been prepared to leave his reputation in the hands Bill Kenwright? You do realise he would have met him?

Koeman will have been aware of the size of his warchest. I believe he would have been told that he had x amount (buttons) plus whatever we could bring in through sales (not buttons).

Despite the crackpot "I don't care how much we spend" attitude of some on here, Koeman would have known his war chest was not bottomless. That being the case, he should have been prioritising a striker from day one of the transfer window.

If, as is being suggested by some, Koeman has been mislead, or let down, why hasn't he said so? The guy has never been backward in telling us the blame lies elsewhere.

I'm all for exonerating the coach of all transfer dealings as long as we don't have to suffer the ridiculous claims of "shrewd bit of business by Koeman" every time a player signed since he got here has a decent 45 minutes. You can't have it both ways.

Of course, if we are going to accept that the coach isn't going to be responsible for the players signed, then we have to ask ourselves why we needed to pay £ 18 million for such a high-profile name? I mean, surely any twat could go and sit in a deckchair on deadline day.

More depressing though, is the thought that he is being paid a ridiculously high salary solely to produce some of the most spirit-sapping dross seen in the Premier League since its inception.

A second-rate manager hired by an amateur board... Why the fuck do we spend so much time analysing and agonising about where we might be going wrong?

Colin Glassar
423 Posted 14/09/2017 at 07:20:14
Carlo Ancellotti will be available next summer, just saying like.
Rob Hooton
424 Posted 14/09/2017 at 08:02:47
Koeman just doesn't appear to give a damn, happy to coast along collecting his wedge – he will still be paid the same amount if he is sacked.

I might be wrong but it looks like he doesn't give a toss and the team is playing in the manager's image.

David Graves
425 Posted 14/09/2017 at 08:34:48
Come on, Rob "he doesn't give a toss"?

Criticise team selection, style of play, transfer dealings by all means but I think that's stretching it isn't it? You have no evidence or reasoning behind that suggestion.

Phil Walling
426 Posted 14/09/2017 at 08:38:08
I get your drift with your posting @ 422, Darren, as it does appear that Koeman is not totally committed to his task.

To be fair to him, he has several times said he has not sole responsibility for signings ( thus setting up Walsh for the fall?) and there does seem to be a disconnect between him and the Club Board and admin. I bet Chairman Bill misses all those cosey chats he had on a daily basis with Davey and Bobby!

As far as Moshiri is concerned, his PR leaves a lot to be desired and, as I warned, he was never close to the action at Arsenal and brought little experience of wheeling and dealing in the Premier League cesspit to our Club.

Perhaps he'll do a better job when he deems the time right to replace his first pick and doesn't get over-absorbed with the stadium project. Relegation would render that superfluous !

David Graves
427 Posted 14/09/2017 at 08:39:42
Martin – I've read several posters saying that he is Head Coach. Now I may be wrong but I believe that Koeman is indeed the 'Manager' and our Erwin is his Assistant. And to be honest what is the difference between identifying targets and stating requirements?

If, as I suspect, he is the Manager then surely he has final say on who comes in to the club?

Rob Hooton
428 Posted 14/09/2017 at 09:19:54
David, I'm not saying he doesn't but it just looks that way to me – the lack of thinking behind his team selection, tactics and the football we have been playing just seems like he has chucked it together without doing his homework. Only an opinion!

Hope he proves me wrong and that we have a great night tonight

Martin Mason
429 Posted 14/09/2017 at 09:25:20
David,

It may be called Manager in the UK but on the continent that position is Head Coach and that matches Koeman's responsibility at Everton. All contractual negotiations with players is done by Walsh; all approvals by Elstone and the Board. The idea of having a Director of Football is that all responsibilities apart from coaching the First team are stripped from what would have been the managers responsibility. Erwin and Dunc would report to Koeman but Unsy and the other age level coaches wouldn't.

Koeman's responsibilities would be to coach the first team, establish a coaching philosophy for all age groups and identifying his player requirements to Walsh. Koeman would have no responsibility for contract negotiations with players and agents although I would expect him to be involved at some stage when we are trying to sell the Club to a player we want.

Whether it's called manager or Head coach (it's head coach at Spurs and Chelsea) the position is nothing like the autocratic power centre that the Manager used to be. the business is just too massive nowadays.

The Organisation is basically:

Moshiri - Owner

Kenwright - Chairman -Manages the activities of the Board

Elstone - CEO - Manages the day to day running of the club

Elstone is very powerful

Brent Stephens
430 Posted 14/09/2017 at 09:45:51
Martin (#429) "All contractual negotiations with players is done by Walsh".

Is that true? Where did you get that from (Masonite call for evidence!)? Sounds unlikely to me – but I might be wrong.

We're guessing on a lot of this and my guess would be that Michael (#418) gives a plausible division of responsibilities between the various people involved.

Martin Mason
431 Posted 14/09/2017 at 09:54:58
This is a typical description of the Roles of the Chairman (Kenwright) and the CEO (Elstone)

The Chairman is responsible for the leadership of the Board and is pivotal in the creation of the conditions necessary for overall board and individual director effectiveness, both inside and outside of the boardroom. It is also the Chairman's role to ensure effective communication with the Association Members and to chair General Meetings. 

The Group CEO is responsible for the day-to-day management of the business, in line with the strategy and long term objectives approved by the Board. The Group CEO may make decisions in all matters affecting the operations, performance and strategy of the Group's businesses, with the exception of those matters reserved for the Board or specifically delegated by the Board to its Committees, executive committees or subsidiary company boards.

David Graves
432 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:00:00
Martin – all contractual negotiations are done by Walsh. You sure about that?

That wasn't his role at Leicester and I haven't seen him referred to in that capacity here.

John Crawley
433 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:04:04
Stan (#387), I think that was exactly what happened with the appointment of Koeman. A safe pair of hands who could do well with a team whilst selling to buy.

Unfortunately, Moshiri failed to factor in his previous managerial problems and didn't have an established Director of Football already in place like Les Reed.

Martin Mason
434 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:05:21
Brent, I don't claim to know the exact hierarchy at Everton, my comments are based on the typical requirements for clubs with similar set-ups as Everton. I also remembered the description of the role when Walsh was taken on to do the job.

As I say, the logic behind it is that the Head Coach does only what the Head Coach needs to do, with a set up using a Director of Football, there would be no logic in the Head Coach having anything to do with contracts and finance.

Where I think I was probably wrong is that Unsy would probably answer to Koeman as a coach. Guessing for sure but I believe how I described it is logical and typical.

Martin Mason
435 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:09:41
David @432,

I believe that Walsh Identifies the players based on the stated requirements from the Head Coach and that he investigates the availability of the players, perhaps makes up a short list and then goes to the board for approval to buy.

My apologies here, I should perhaps have said that he is involved in the contract negotiations; I believe that the man responsible is Kenwright and members of his team. The point I wanted to make is that Koeman wouldn't be the man. that is why he was churlishly playing golf on TDD.

Brent Stephens
436 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:28:29
Martin (#435), fair post.
David Graves
437 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:38:03
Okay Martin.
Martin Mason
438 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:42:27
Thanks, just trying to add to the debate.
Phil Walling
439 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:42:32
Does it really matter who does what?

As long as they are all dedicated to maximising the the success ratio of the team, they can do it as they think best for me!

Brian Williams
440 Posted 14/09/2017 at 10:53:23
Phil (#439).

It matters only in so much as people on here and elsewhere know who to blame when things go tits up.

If Koeman genuinely had no "power" to sign a striker, despite banging on about it ad nauseam, then it's fair to say it's not his fault.

Tony Everan
441 Posted 14/09/2017 at 11:38:43
The buck needs to stop somewhere! I cannot buy into this ''collective responsibility'' defence.

The signings we have made do not make us a balanced side and do not allow us to function properly as an attacking force. Someone is to blame for this, surely?

99% could see we needed a striker, and defensive cover. Most can see we have too many players at No 10.

Someone somewhere has taken their eye off the ball in a big way.... Whodunnit?

Paul Tran
442 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:04:33
Here's my take.

Koeman is responsible for team tactics, management and motivation. He will identify and approve players.

The board/recruitment team are responsible for negotiating deals and getting the players Koeman wants. That's why I have no issue with Koeman being away. I underestimated how much work it took to get a deal over the line until I spent a couple of days working at a large, well known club.

They are all responsible for working effectively with each other.

For me, it's best to keep these issues separate, though there appears to be a theme of incompetence throughout.

John Pierce
443 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:13:22
If you're all right, then Koeman plays no part in selling the club to the potential target.

Sorry but, coach or manager or whatever he's called, that's not good enough.

Dave Wilson
444 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:20:23
Koeman must have been surprised when Walsh identified Schneiderlin.

I can just imagine how that conversation started – "Where did you find him ?"

Soren Moyer
445 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:26:52
Meanwhile, Man Utd have 2 more resting days than us before Sunday's game! Shame on you, Sky.
Thomas Lennon
446 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:41:20
Walsh has longer term responsibilities than the manager, so has to ensure the squad is good enough for now and into the future when a different manager may be in place. The manager might set out what skills he wants his players to have, Walsh might identify candidates (with the manager but not exclusively driven by the manager) and the task of buying them goes to a different group of people, we think led by Kenwright.

An important aim for Walsh is never to arrive at a situation where an incoming manager has to sell half the squad – he must play a part in managing the squad before it becomes uneconomic. We might say it is Walsh's job to constantly improve the squad with a specific aim in mind, working with the current manager.

Walsh's role must partly relate to managing business too as buying and selling players is a huge part of every budget.

The manager just needs to win now – to take an extreme example, he doesn't have to be overly concerned about next season so you could imagine a manager filling a squad with 33-year-old superstars if he were left to his own preferences. He would then stand a chance of winning something and getting a better job, however the club would most likely lose a lot of money as the value of those players rapidly drops!

A balance between the two is struck. Koeman is currently concerned about the next 2 years, Walsh the next 5 years or more.

We are currently around halfway to building a squad that might stand a chance of competing for a Champions League place in 3-4 years time, when the new stadium is ready to go. Contrary to some of what is said, I don't think there is a huge rush to get there before then as our current infrastructure is not capable of maximising the financial benefits of Champions League, making repeat appearances expensive and less likely. If we do get there we are ahead of schedule and someone will have to prop up the necessary squad strengthening with a lot of cash spending – risky!

Martin Mason
447 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:41:46
John @443,

I believe that Koeman has an important part in selling the club and vision thing to potential targets. With a Director of Football though he will not be responsible for the selection process or in negotiating a fee or contract. I'm sure though that he works closely with Walsh to make sure that he gets what he wants.

Does Walsh as Director of Football have input into how the players are coached? No. Koeman is a jumped up coach and Walsh is a jumped up scout. The power at the club is above their pay grade.

Was Koeman responsible for not getting a striker? No, that was down to Walsh and Kenwright. Was there blame attached automatically? I'd say no because if nobody was available at acceptable price and wages then they are correct not to buy. No deal is always better than a bad one. We should know that surely given the tripe we've bought at times. Otherwise the blame is with Walsh and the board but not Koeman.

Regarding the apparent purchase of midfield duffers during the window? I'd say Walsh and Koeman.

Kim Vivian
448 Posted 14/09/2017 at 12:48:49
When I am thinking of buying a product I am unfamiliar with I tend to look at the 1 star reviews before visiting better reviews to get a handle on how the item has performed or otherwise for other users. Very often these are nonsense because, for example, someone might give a shit product review simply because they didn't like the way someone spoke to them, but very often the points made are very salient.

Applying the same principle to Koeman's appointment as our manager (to use the old fashioned description) one can offset the negativity of his tenure at Valencia against his playing record and success in a relatively uncompetitive Dutch league (certainly compared with the Premier League) and I do wonder sometimes how much depth was gone into when researching him as a potential target.

The feeling pervades with me that a rather blinkered view may have been taken by our board (Moshiri in particular who is displaying a fair degree of football naivety such as with his Sky Sports News appearances). Indeed I for one, and many on here as well I suspect, listened to the hype, saw the successful player, the 'saviour' at Southampton when players were being sold from out underneath his feet and a certain degree of success in the Eredivisie and was quite unaware of the downsides to his history before being enlightened by many comments on here. His CV on the face of it seemed pretty impressive until one starts digging down.

Now I hope I am mistaken and I sincerely hope he becomes a resounding success with us but the overall pattern that is emerging so far leads me to doubt this will happen. I see and hear no passion, dire performances and tactics on the pitch, player unhappiness and lame excuses/buck passing.

If everything continues as shit over the next couple of months then we seriously need to consider moving on, pay him off, let Rhino see the season out and – as someone else has mentioned (Colin G I think) – take at look at Ancelotti if Bayern are going to trigger his break clause as rumoured.

On other rumours,I see we are supposedly interested in another midfielder (!) from Werder Bremen. I'd rather see us get back in a hunt for Timo Werner tbh.

ps: Have we got a game tonight?!

Steve Ferns
449 Posted 14/09/2017 at 13:09:10
With regards to our transfers, I think there is three things to consider.

1. Youth – we have brought in a lot of young players for not inconsiderable sums, a lot of this was done quickly and quietly. Of course, there's less egos and issues here, so it is easier to do so.

2. Early Transfers – Keane, Klaassen, and Pickford were brought in early in un-Everton fashion, without any real issues.

3. Later and failed transfers – Sigurdsson was a protracted mess. How much is that down to Everton, and how much is down to Swansea trying to milk us like we milked Man City for Lescott and Stones?

Giroud, we all know that this was close, very close. If we signed Giroud then would everything have been better? When we didn't sign Giroud, why was no one else brought in?

For me, 1 and 2 come down to Walsh. Koeman clearly had input in Klaassen as he was spotted scouting him at Ajax. I would bet Koeman was involved in the other major transfers of Keane and Pickford, in that he selected them, and then Walsh's team would have got them signed.

Martina is a curious one. Was it Walsh's transfer? No. Was it Koeman? Certainly was. Martina was available for transfer on a pre-contract Dosman from 1 April 2017. Why did he take so long to arrive?

If Koeman really wanted him, and he did or why's he playing so much? Then why wasn't he signed on the first of July when he could be registered after his contract expired at Southampton? Was it that Walsh told Koeman how crap he was? Or did Koeman have second thoughts? Or did Martina wait to see his options? Very curious for me.

As for The Giroud replacement, we had 3 weeks. What happened in those three weeks? Did Koeman not fancy someone? I cannot foresee Everton spending £30+ on a striker and Koeman not being in agreement 100% I can foresee us signing a striker for £30m+ and Walsh not agreeing 100%.

As for Walsh ensuring we do not need a new squad when we replace the manager, no that is not the case. We have no left winger. We have 2 strikers. We lack pace. Any new manager will want to reconsider this. This squad is clearly setup to Koeman's narrow, pressing specifications. Koeman identifies the players and Walsh or his team complete the deals.

Everything done without Koeman seems to have been done very well and very quickly.

Jay Woods
450 Posted 14/09/2017 at 13:16:32
I need to do something about my encroaching dyslexia.

I initially saw the headline to the thread as "Calls for Koeman's resignation after Spurs defeat".

We can rationalise all we like, but the cold reality is we sold our star player to a rival in the same league, a rival we supposedly (hah!) have aspirations of matching or overtaking under Koeman's tenure.

All the politics around the transfer, all the player's own demands and shenanigans, it's all background noise to that fact. And that fact is the true "tell" of where the club is, which direction it is headed in, and its true ambitions.

Brian Harrison
451 Posted 14/09/2017 at 13:19:52
Well our DNA usually shows that with the exception of Moyes if you don't win anything you get 3 years. Even Joe Royle, despite winning the FA Cup, only got 3 years. So I am sure if we win nothing this season then by Xmas next year Moshiri will be looking for a new manager.

Now whether changing the manager so often is beneficial I don't know, but Chelsea have proved you can be successful provided you can by the best players and employ the best managers.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
452 Posted 14/09/2017 at 13:38:22
Kim Vivian (#448)

1. To think a lot on here were touting Frank de Boer as Martinez's replacement and some were disappointed we didn't and went for Koeman. Hands up, those to which this applies.

2. Yes we do have a game. And a tongue in cheek comment to the site admin team – seems that not only is the first team going to struggle with enough personnel this season with all the extra games :-) Sorry lads, you do a great job.

John Roberts
453 Posted 14/09/2017 at 15:31:04
I hope something changes tonight as it's such doom and gloom with the 8 games so far this season, it really can't get much worse. Only thing that excites me tonight is if Vlasic plays, see if he can create a corner or something, just anything.
Jim Harrison
454 Posted 14/09/2017 at 16:24:19
John Roberts

Cant get much worse? Sorry, but it could be a lot worse!!

The last game was a very bad performance. Up to that point it had been going okay. Lose away to the Champions? Not the end of the world. Clearly a far better team. Results before then were what, played 6, won 4 drew 2? It could be a lot worse.

It needs to get a lot better, yes. The manager has to prove he can get this group performing a lot better than they have in the past two matches. But its 4 games into the Premier League season. We have faced the top 3 from last year already, two away from home.

We are currently 3 points behind Spurs, Liverpool and 2 off arsenal. Let's not write it all off just yet. This isn't a defence of performance or tactics, just a dose of reality.

John Crawley
455 Posted 14/09/2017 at 16:29:35
Steve (#449), the only logical conclusion I can come to is that Koeman is selecting the players to buy for the first team and Walsh is buying the younger ones. Nothing else makes sense as I cannot see any Director of Football worth their salt agreeing to the approach to buying that we've adopted since Koeman arrived.
Jim Harrison
456 Posted 14/09/2017 at 16:55:12
The Director of Football works with the manager to identify players who fit the requirements of the intended style of play. He is also responsible for sourcing emerging talents for the future. Steve Walsh explained his role himself.

The manager obviously has a say regarding first team players he would like. Sigurdsson and Klaassen were clearly his preferred choices. That doesn't mean he has anything to do with getting transfers completed with regards contracts and fee negotiations. But not being involved in these aspects doesn't stop him from speaking with players once talks are initiated.

There is still a degree of interview about the process. Maybe the manager has to sell the club to a player; maybe the manager needs to see that the player has the right attitude. But once that is done the wrangling passes over to the transfer team. Koeman has been quite consistent in saying he doesn't handle transfers, not that he doesn't know who we are trying to sign.

I worked for a large private schools group, in charge of my area. When I needed new equipment I would identify what I needed, maybe find a couple of suitable options then send to purchasing, who would follow it all up arrange for samples to be sent or meetings with reps to which I would be invited.

They may even say no, you don't need that model you can make do with this one. When all was agreed in principle all the payment and delivery terms etc would be handled by them. I would ask for updates if it seemed to be taking too long, but they would handle it.

Now, we were buying gym boxes and bikes not footballers, but the process is fairly standard

As for not getting a striker, it's the whole lot of them to blame!!

Tony Marsh
457 Posted 14/09/2017 at 17:10:23
Replacement striker... replacement striker... who's fault is it? Jeez, we had a fantastic striker and pushed him out to Man Utd for coppers. FFS stop going on about replacements and think about how and why we let Lukaku go so easily.

Who is to blame for Lukaku leaving is the issue – not who we didn't buy. We needed another striker when Rom was still here so people at the club have fucked up. We didn't buy, we sold – that is why we are fucked.

Please stop looking in the wrong place to place your blame. We had a striker, we let him go; end of story.

John Roberts
458 Posted 14/09/2017 at 18:42:03
Jim, it's just frustrating, we just don't look like scoring in any games. Sigurdsson probably saved our European campaign with that one in a million goal otherwise we could have easily been knocked out. They missed a penalty etc.

Saturday was terrible, I cannot remember the last time we rolled over like that at home!! We all want progress but it's hard to see the light at the minute. We've missed some sort of replacement for Lukaku and I think we will pay for it.

John Roberts
459 Posted 14/09/2017 at 18:46:24
And doesn't look like it's getting better!!
Will Mabon
460 Posted 14/09/2017 at 20:32:30
Looks like you were right about the "Realism" Ron.
Jim Harrison
461 Posted 15/09/2017 at 02:00:33
John, see, it can get worse!!

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