I'm fed up of reading this money argument. The lie to it is that Moyes has proved it's a myth: you only have to look at the top-four finish he already has under his belt to realise that.

And look at last season. We were in 3rd place for an extended period. How was that possible if we are "not good enough"? How was it possible for Moyes's team of players (mostly the same as the one we currently have) to go on such a good run, play what many an Evertonian labelled "the best football seen at Goodison Park in 20 years" and ? most importantly for me ? WIN GAMES IN STYLE.

So I categorically reject the argument that we are not good enough, or that we don't have the players to play far better football AND win games. The proof ids there... I can't understand why you can't see it.

What we clearly lack is a manager who can sustain it, a manager who goes into key matches with the belief that he can beat supposedly superior opposition. That's what led to our ultimate downfall last season, and our slide down the table to 5th. Instead of leading them over the final hurdle,, we have Moyes telling us how great these other teams are, and what a good job their managers have done. Pftui!

Moyes has what he needs in terms of players... he doesn't have what Everton needs in terms of bottle and belief and commitment. After 6½ years, he clearly doesn't have what is needed to get there. All the other excuses are to hide this basic deficiency in him as a top manager. Sadly for Everton FC, he ain't one. Get Real indeed.

Michael - you actually do have some valid points re Moyes and you never fail to reinforce them! However, lacking in bottle and belief and commitment he may be (arguable, I suppose), he must have something that most other managers don?t have to achieve the positions that we have reached in 3 of the last 4 seasons. Yes, his tactics are sometimes dubious, he clearly has problems with flair players / strikers etc our style of play is dour ? but at the end of the day, he clearly has some magic ingredient. I don?t see anyone outside the top 4 who has achieved what he has. And Arsenal apart, who have Wenger at the front end of a fantastic scouting / youth development policy, money clearly does help in the end.

I think we should recognise his limitations but praise his talent in other areas.

Lewis, you only have to look at Moyes?s reluctance to throw subs on, when things are not working out on the pitch. He is happy to just go with what he starts with, as long as it is still 0-0. He never tries to take the game by the scruff of the neck, when it?s calling out for it. He only acts when we concede. It is his "Let's set out to not get beat, and then maybe nick a goal" attitude that I hate more than anything.

I used to have Toffeeweb as one of my browser ?favourites? which I check out a couple of times a day. Sadly, the depressive nihilism constantly gushing from people like Tony Marsh and the above became too much to bear and I scratched it from my ?favs? and now rarely look in.

Glad to see re M Kenrick?s contribution that nothing has changed !
Still the same deluded whining and anti-Moyes rants and all based on nothing but an almost ?flat earth society? view of football in the Murdoch/EPL era.
Nice to think we still have Evertonians pining away for the days of Alan Ball and Jimmy Husband though.

Oh... I agree with the OP.

Michael, you contradict yourself, you say

?After 6½ years, he clearly doesn?t have what is needed to get there. All the other excuses are to hide this basic deficiency in him as a top manager. Sadly for Everton FC, he ain?t one?

But you also say

?The lie to it is that Moyes has proved it?s a myth: you only have to look at the top-four finish he already has under his belt to realise that. ?

So he is the only manager who has proved he has the ability to compete with the top 4

I do actually agree with Peter, it used to be a delightful read, but suddenly everyone gets so depressed, especially you editor Michael Kenrick!!

I think at the moment Moyes is the best manager we can get, so let?s not moan about it, stick with it because at least we are gettin wins at the moment, and see what happens!

I?ve said how many times, moaning about all this will not change a thing!!!

I have to add my weight to Peter Eastoe?s PoV. I thought the Daily Mail was toxic (and it is) but sometimes MK and Marsh could give Paul Dacre lessons in sanctimonious, humourless editorialising. This is a great site in many respects but at times the TM-MK show verges on parody but with a hint of bile that?s all too unwelcome. For fuck?s sake, lighten up.

To be honest Michael, I tried my best not to mention money but the fact of the matter is, it does play a major part in how successful a team is no matter what you think.

Are you saying it?s just a coincidence that the 4 richest teams (Man City dont count, YET!) are the ones that constantly finish in the top 4. I know we broke the trend but this was mainly down to our manager performing miracles with an average team and the shite doing their best to fuck up. I mean what happened the next season? Were we able to push on and challenge again? No is the answer. And why weren't we? Because we didn't have the money to buy the players that were going to help us kick on and challenge again. Even Arsenal are finding it dfficult to challenge Man Utd and Chelsea for trophies in the last few seasons. Now I wonder why that can be? It hasn't got anything to do with them not being able to buy the world class players needed has it?

Do ye know what, Michael, the more I think about your claim that needing money is a myth, the more I can't stop laughing.

Post removed for abuse of Evertonians. Don't think you can come on this site and talk of Evertonians "hating Everton" and others being "true supporters". Read the Conditions of Use!

Michael, you seem to be on a massive downer at the moment......CHEER UP!!! You mention you are sick of the money argument, but after Everton finished 4th (therefore giving the sly 4 (yes i meant sly) a kick up their pampered arses), it would be interesting to compare how much money we, and them spent in the next season and see where we all ended up, 11th for us by the way!

James Carlyle what a load of tosh - no-one on here hates Everton. What we hate is the crap football we are playing under Moyes. We try to play with 1 striker up front with no-one near him. Well most of us are fed up with that shite. What is the point of finishing 5th if that is what we have to watch. It is people like you who bring this site down not those of us who are pushing for positive football and more entertainment. And to suggest we go and watch someone else is so childish I suggest you go and get back in your pram you tosser.

Michael Kenrick. Not for the first time this week I am taking issue with your lack of perspective and realism. Liverpool have spent about £60m over and above our record transfer of about £15m (and as a result last won the prem 18 years ago!). Man U have spent £170m over and above that £15m. Arsenal transfers are more difficult to find but I suspect it?s a lot more than we?ve spent - but Chelsea have spent £Hundreds of millions over and above what we have spent. Success nowadays is in SPECTACULAR direct proportion to what you spend.

Moyes has demonstrably done the best job consistently for managers outside the Sky4 super rich in recent years. The only team to be deposed in recent years is Liverpool and guess who did that! It?s arguable that there?s a top three and then Liverpool who are the poor relation of the other Sky4. I don?t like it any more than anyone else, but to win the league nowadays costs £hundreds of millions which we simply don?t have. The achievement of coming 4th should not be underestimated - and I don?t like second best any more than the next true blue, but the facts speak for themselves.

There?s some truth in all the above comments though the one I most agree with is that from Brian Waring. I wish I had a dollar for every time I mutter then scream for Moyes to change the flow of the game with a sub. As Brian says, why wait 'til we fall behind?

Broadly speaking I agree with Lewis?s original comments but I am APPALLED by the response from Kenrick. It shows the truth that the site is now overtly anti-Moyes/Kenwright.

All I can say is to be careful what you wish for! Who the hell do you think could do better?

James Carlyle, I suspect you are referring to me as an Everton hater. If so, it is a pretty infantile suggestion. I sometimes hate the crap football we play. I hate it when I can?t watch match of the day after a dismal showing. I hate it most when I spend the £300 quid to travel over for a game and sometimes see dross.

I love the club, though. I think a supporter is someone who will argue for what they think is best for the club. I think blind loyalty is a sign of a fanatic.

I also agree with Brian Waring?s criticisim regarding Moyes?s substitutions and I have many more criticisms of our manager. What I don't agree with though is the vile hatred shown towards him by some people on here just because he chooses results over performances. FFS he is our manager, get behind him even if you don't agree with him. At the end of the day, he is only trying to do the best for our club. That was the main point I was trying to make in my post.

Lewis,
It is very difficult to "get behind" somebody when you do not agree with their style ( sic ) of play. And that which has already been mentioned, the substitution thing, is really beginning to get to me. Why do we always have to go a goal down before there is any action from the sub's bench?

The recent standard of football, by our club, has been absolutely appalling. Although we are currently on some sort of upturn, the standard has not improved. And to me that is disappointing.

I think I might?ve said this before but sometimes I rather think the problem is not so much with Mr Moyes, rather with football in general.

With one or two exceptions ? Wenger?s Arsenal being the most notable ? very few clubs (or national teams) these days play a style of football I care to watch. It's all too fast and too negative. Few players can combine the athleticism required for the pace of games with the enhanced touch needed at such accelerated tempos.

There are so many athletes in the game now, rather than ball players, and so many teams adept at stopping others playing, and of course the game is generally played at break-neck pace, and that?s why so much shite gets served up.

In an ideal world we?d follow the lead shown by other sports ? i.e. those prepared to make radical changes to keep the game entertaining for spectators ? but we?re hidebound by stadia and tradition.

Volleyball and badminton have changed rules, F1 play around with car specs, the most obvious thing we might do is increase the size of pitches (to give people more time and space to play football) but we can?t due to grounds being enclosed. That aside, all we can do is cut a player or two from each side, but that?s not going to happen either!

And I think things will get worse rather than better. The game will get faster, more brutal, more about money than soul. It?s going to be a lucky fan whose clubs are able to secure the services of players who can live with the pace, rough & tumble AND show some silky skills at the same time.

Goodness knows, if I wasn?t miserable when I started this rant I am now,

Refering to real blues and calling other posters secret Kopites is a low act. Everton supporters won?t always share the same ideas as to what's best for the club, the purpose of this site to allow debate. If you only want to here praise for all things Everton go read the offical site.

While Tony Marsh etc may be more critical than most, they are still Everton fans and only want success for us. The likes of Andy Crooks and Tony Marsh have been on this site for some time now. They would have to be pretty dedicated red shite supporters to spend that much time on one of our sites. I?m pretty sure most of them couldn?t give a shit about us at the moment anyway.<

I think Moyes has a lot of excellent attributes as a manager. But there is nothing to be gained by highlighting what he already has mastered. For me, where he falls down most is in not instilling enough belief and confidence in our players. This is where I feel he can improve the most. It is a fine line between respect and fear of the opposition, and sometimes it causes fear... no matter how good to opposition it should NEVER be fear! If it is fear, you are beat before you start as expectation is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Likewise, it is a fine line between confidence and overconfidence. I feel Moyes may over-react to inevitable player mistakes when playing it on the deck and does not praise and encourage enough the confidence needed to play positively without it being do or die....

I feel he also has a slight chip on his shoulder at times, resorting to being defensive of his record and bemoaning the lack of resources to compete as an excuse for failure. To be exceptional, and achieve real success at Everton (i.e. WIN something!) I think he needs to be bolder and back the lads more to be playing more proactive brave football. Attack is often the best forms of defence afterall. More belief in himself and his players required!

No argument really. No Money = Shite football?? OK, Arsenal have a huge revenue stream of funding coming through the turnstiles of the Emirates but this pays back the loan to build the stadium. But anyone see the kids embarrass a full Premier League side last night? Ramsey was paid for and Vela cost about £1.5M but most are products of their youth academy. Teaching youth to pass to each other and attack at breakneck speed is a process that Wenger has been doing since he arrived on these shores. Not a "hoofball" in sight. Who is teaching our senior players let alone our kids (apart from Baxter and Rodwell) this practice??? No-one by the looks of it!! That?s what should GET REAL!!!

I am glad you have apologised because your remarks were totally out of order telling Evertonians they should go and support another club. I hope in future you will think more carefully before you put such dross on here again.

Mick Wrendle - you are happy to be virulent in your criticism of others - calling someone you disgree with a tosser. However, you start moaning when you get criticised back!! Is there not a touch of hypocrisy there?

Michael Kenrick - you refer to last season and how we struggled to challenge for 4th place. Do you not think injuries to players such as Cahill had a bad effect? We haven?t got the same strength in depth as the so called Sky 4. Martin O?Neill at Villa has referred to having similar limitations and in the long run it does have an effect on clubs such as Everton, Villa and Portsmouth and others.

If we followed your philosophy, Lewis, we?d still have Walter Smith in charge. It was only because we decided not to accept mediocrity and accept crap football that Smith was given the boot (if you remember, BK had the same love-in with him). Moyes has spent comparitively huge amounts compared to Wally so your money argument falls short.

It?s only by demanding things change that anything will. You can?t deny that this season we are absolute shite to watch. We are only 7th because the overall standard of the league is shite. We are "best of the rest" because we are most effective at playing the ?keep it tight and hope to nick one? tactic. The attendances this season are demonstrating that people like you, Lewis, are in the minority.

Alan, I agree with the thrust of your argument but feel you are a bit harsh on Walter Smith. Had he had the money David Moyes has spent I believe he could have been successful. In the early nineties, with money to spend at Rangers, he had a good deal of success playing attractive football.

Sorry Andy, that was my point. Moyes has spent more than Smith and I don’t think the standard of football we play is any different. We just have better players doing it so we’re more effective.

I have to admit I had some good times under Smith. 6-0 wins et al. But Everton played the worst football I have ever seen under Smith. I remember a dire 0-0 draw against Derby around Christmas time. I think Derby had the only shot of the game.

No other team around us is consistant at the moment. All teams suffer loss of form, and the result is the most important aspect. Consider this, if you were manager a few games ago, surely you would want to get the club back up the table as quick as you can. Everything was going wrong so the thing to do was get back to basics. For Moyes this was getting the defence solid again. We might not be playing at our best defensively at the moment, but we have only conceded 1 goal in the last 3. Whenever we hit a sticky patch Moyes always tried to tigthen things up get a few clean sheets and then try and kick on from there. Now we’re doing this again, I hope that with Cahill’s return we can start to try and play some football too.

No team in the premier league, outside the sky 4, plays consistantly good football, and whenever I watch football first they all usually seem to serve up a similar level to us. I think this is something characteristic with the current british game.

Also, remember we’re not seeing Moyes on TV or in the press, beaming saying how pleased he is. He said he was pleased to get the points against West Ham but was not happy with how we played.

As for belief and bottle, if Everton or Moyes lack this then surely we would not be winning games late on. Surely we would have sat back after nicking one against West Ham. I think Moyes’ team always have belief and bottle, except against the so called bigger sides.

I also agree that Moyes has his failures, but don’t all managers? And who really in the Premier League would you have instead of him. I’d only go for Wenger or Scholari, and I doubt either would change much in the short term.

One final thought, I have often attributed the so called hoofball to the crowd. This is something that has been in exsistance at Everton since long before Moyes. Whenever Unsworth, Jackson, or any of the full backs had it, they’ve always seemed to launch it long, usually baying to the shouts from the crowd of launching it long to get another attack going. I’ve hardly ever heard the crowd urge players to knock it inside or keep it short.

Spot on.... Michael Kenrick !!

Not spot on...Nelly Blythe!!!

Great comment Michael, a good concise profile of Moyes’ failings as managaer of EFC.

Alan Clarke,
Just to let you know that I don't accept mediocrity. I'm as pissed off as any one at the way we?ve played so far. Just because I'm defending Moyes doesn't mean I'm happy with the way we are playing. I'm defending him because some of the abuse and hatred shown towards him on this site is out of order.

Do ye know what Alan, I've been to every game this season (home and away) and I've witnessed some terrible performances but the level of abuse towards Moyes has never got to the level that it has on here. I think people like you are in the minority!

Just another thing Alan, so you think I was happy with Walter Smith (ha ha ha). Smith's team performances were painful when we played well. Moyes is capable of getting a mixture of good performances and results, that's the difference.

Why do people think that playing attractive football goes against getting results? For all the arguments about money, the top teams in the land play the better football (for whatever reason) and the ones at the bottom tend to play the worst. Sweeping generalisation I know but it generally holds. It seems to me that if you adopt Moyes?s hoofball tendencies then you spend a significant amount of time in a game trying to get the ball back only to relinquish posession again. Do this often enough in games and you?ll lose more than you win.

Lewis, it isn?t the ?Everton way? to abuse the manager is it? That?s why you never hear abuse but people are starting to show it by not attending games. I can guarantee you, season ticket sales next season will be well down too.

Also Lewis, the difference between Smith and Moyes is money. Moyes has had more money to spend so has more effective players to carry out the job. That?s why overall we?re better under Moyes but they both have the same philosophy with their defend at all costs tactics. Lewis, you admit you?ve witnessed some terrible performances but at what point are you going to accept this is it with Moyes? We?re not going to get any better and he?s been in charge for 6½ years. If you?re happy going to games and watching this crap then you are accepting mediocrity.

Apart from the few who abuse others on here, I think it is making good reading. The site is set up for us all to release our thoughts regarding the club we love. People have been thru this for many long years but they did it down the pub, at work or at home. The internet gives us all the chance to share the excitement or frustration of recent events with each other and we will never all agree that is for sure.

I stated on here the other day that if any other manager in the prem took over our current team (squad), then I could not see it finishing anywhere near the top six. We just cannot see what DM is doing right at the moment because the football is dire and that is not what we want from an Everton team.

I suppose if we had scored the 3 goals at 15 mins, 48 mins and 75 mins, that win on Saturday would have looked class but in reality we were so poor for most of the game a lot of blues probably turned away in disgust. Iam sure DM knows all of this and realises it has to change and that is his own greatest challenge.

Alan Clarke: [[ Moyes has spent comparitively huge amounts compared to Wally so your money argument falls short. ]]

Um ... no it doesn’t. If anything that absolutely confirms his argument, what with Moyes having had significantly better results than Walter. How does that remotely contradict his argument that money = greater chance of success? Some of you appear to be arguing for the sake of it with no regard for basic logic. Get a grip.

I also love the logic that no team in recent history has cracked the top four (aside from Moyes) so that proves it can be done without money so that proves Moyes is crap.

I’m not saying you’re all bad Evertonians but you’d definitely be bad Vulcans.

Alan, this is getting boring now. I can assure you that I don't accept mediocrity, I just support my team through thick and thin unlike you. Tell me Alan, are you still going the game or have you fell off the bandwagon as well? I bet you was one of those who fell off in the dark days of the 90s only to jump back on when Moyes turned us around. Do us a favour will ye and just let the wagon drive past next time it comes along!

Heath; like Walter, David Moyes has flirted with relegation, like Walter he has won nothing. Walter did it cheap, David spent a lot more. The football is much the same. The difference that Walter has proven that with money he is a winner.

Unlike Walter, he has qualified for Europe 3 times, breaking into the top 4 in the process. Did ye forget that bit Andy?

So Walter proved he was a winner with money did he? How? By winning trophies with Rangers... not really that hard considering it's only between 2 teams!

In theory, all you need is a team that can beat teams from 10th downwards in the league. This gives you a possible total of 60 points. The rest is a bonus. This should qualify for Europe. The top 4 possibly needs another 3-4 victories against teams above 10th to get CL qualification.

The problem is that 16 other clubs are fighting for the same goal, albeit a handful of those clubs do so unrealistically and therefore defeats and draws are setbacks to that goal.

The only way to try to reach that goal is by having a squad that can cope with the peaks and troughs that the season dishes out. We don?t have that squad yet but surely 4-5 key players could sort that out.

Problem. How do you generate potentially extra cash to achieve your squads needs when the core supporters say they will not move to the only new stadium design that potentially can deliver the goods.

OK, its easy for me to overlook the importance of being inside the boundaries as my home game travel day is in 000?s of miles but to progress means financial gains need to be made. And for other ideas to have the possibility of growing in fruitition then we need sustained support??it?s a vicious circle.

What can we the fans do? Support your team in voice. Especially, when the tide is good, like now, despite the play being atrocious.

In theory all you need is a team that can beat teams from 10th downwards in the league. This gives you a possible total of 60 points. The rest is a bonus. This should qualify for Europe. The top 4 possibly needs another 3-4 victories against teams above 10th to get CL qualification.

The problem is that 16 other clubs are fighting for the same goal, albeit a handful of those clubs do so unrealistically and therefore defeats and draws are setbacks to that goal.

The only way to try to reach that goal is by having a squad that can cope with the peaks and troughs that the season dishes out. We don?t have that squad yet but surely 4-5 key players could sort that out.

Problem. How do you generate potentially extra cash to achieve your squads needs when the core supporters say they will not move to the only new stadium design that potentially can deliver the goods.

OK, its easy for me to overlook the importance of being inside the boundaries as my home game travel day is in 000?s of miles but to progress means financial gains need to be made. And for other ideas to have the possibility of growing in fruitition then we need sustained support??it?s a vicious circle.

What can we the fans do? Support your team in voice. Especially, when the tide is good, like now, despite the play being atrocious.

Chris Jones referred to other sports e.g. Formula 1 where there had been various rule changes to make the sport less prone to domination by one team. True there couldn?t be many rule changes within the actual game of football ? however, what about something like a salary cap? They introduced that in Rugby League at a time when one club, Wigan was the dominant force in the game. Since that was brought in, the trophies have been spread around more clubs.

A salary cap would also encourage even the likes of Chelsea to invest more resources in their youth academy.

I know some of the "Moyes bashers" out there are probably fed up with hearing the cry of "lack of money". But it is a very important factor ? Martin O?Neill is one of the best managers in the Premier League yet, even if Villa win something this season, it will have taken him 3 seasons. It only took Mourinho a season to win trophies. Still think money isn?t an issue Kenrick & Co?

Sorry to disappoint you, Lewis, with your "I?m a better blue" argument but I?ve been a season ticket holder since the dark days of Mike Walker so in fact all I?ve seen is pretty much crap football. I?m not doubting your affection for Everton or your loyalty but I do get pissed off at the amount of Evertonians who just sit there and accept watching shite hoofball defensive tactics and then come on here and criticise people for moaning about how shit we are to watch.

I am about to fall off the wagon though because of the way our club is run. The club shows no loyalty to us. The shambolic summer has demonstrated this. I fear many Evertonians feel the same way.

James - I don?t think Moyes is without fault and he has made mistakes - but that is something that he has in common with every manager. Personally I think he has done a very good job since he took over and I think he deserves a great deal of credit for what has been achieved.

There are too many Evertonians who have appeared to forget the situation when he took over. I am sure that Michael Kenrick and others of the "anti-Moyes" brigade will refer to their right to express their opinion. Indeed, they have that right but what a pity they seem to be rather intolerant of any views that differ from their own ? resorting to vitriolic abusive replies to criticisms of their viewpoint.

On the subject of our riding our luck last week. Well, how many times have we bemoaned our bad luck in the past.?! It?s about time we had the rub of the green!!! Don?t knock it!!

So a few weeks ago, the anti DM & BK band were bemoaning our poor results and exit from 2 competitions. Now we?ve won a few, they find something else to complain about? Is someone having me on???

To address a few points: one of the ?better? footballing teams in the division (top 4 aside) could be regarded as West Brom ? who sit bottom of the pile by the way. Money doesn?t matter? How many jokers have said something to that effect? Money is THE most important thing in football, full stop. Moyes has spent more than Smith, and we?ve done better ? logical you?d think (although obviously not to everyone).

Bottom line is, if someone says to me; you?ll finish in the top 5 this season, but you?ll be bored shitless every week save for the odd goal... or you?ll play football comparable with Brazil, but that just might get you into trouble... then I?ll be standing in the wind and rain and everything else week in week out watching us come 5th and not giving a shit how we play, and if anyone else says they?d prefer to see the ?flowing? football at the expense of success, then can you please explain why cos while I?d like both, I?ll take results over performances 100 times out of 100.

Final point, and I hate to pick on anyone but Andy Crooks - Walter Smith had success with money? If I was the manager of Glasgow Rangers, I bet I?d pick up a few trophies, piece of piss. Like Lewis said ?Get Real? - great piece Lewis btw

Michael Brien, I let a lot of stuff go on here that comes much closer to "vitriolic abusive replies to criticism" ? take a look over this thread for example.

The tone of responses seems to be one of your favourite issues, along with a belief that the "anti-Moyes" brigade somehow has a faulty memory (in contrast to your own, no doubt) and that they are far more intolerant of opposing views than are the "pro-Moyes" brigade, presumably.

Look, it?s a discussion forum; we all have our own views about Everton. We express those views with differing degrees of passion and conviction, and in our own writing styles, and some undoubtedly come across more strongly than others. But I don?t take kindly to mischaraterizations.

If you have a valid viewpoint regarding the issues then please go ahead and express it. That's what the forum is for. But I?m asking you to focus on the issues themselves, rather than dragging the discussion down to where you use personal jibes to impose a viewpoint.

No doubt you can find examples where I have crossed that line too, but your response clarifies to me why such tactics are unacceptable and need to be curtailed. Your cooperation would be appreciated.

And of course you wouldn?t use personal jibes would you? Try having a balanced view Michael ? if we finished 4th I would expect you would find some reason to criticise Moyes. The guy is far from perfect I would readily admit to that. But I think he has done quite a good job in the time that he has been Everton manager.

I don?t regard myself as being Pro Moyes ? more a case of weighing up the pros and cons as it where I think most reasonable thinking Evertonians would at least give Moyes some credit!!! Look up the word prejudice, Michael ? I think you are suffering from an anti-Moyes bias/prejudice. The best cure would be to look at the league tables since 2000-01 season.

Alan, you haven't dissapointed me, I'm made up to hear you're still going.

At the end of the day, Alan I'll take the shite performances, the ugly, hardfought and lucky wins if it means us getting the confidence back that will help us hit some good form and do what we have done in the past few years, which is go on to finnish in the European places.

Confidence is a major factor in the Everton team, gain it and we will probably hit a purple patch. Lose it and... well just look at the start to the season.

Keep the faith, Al.

I thought it would probably be a mistake to engage you in reasoned discussion. Anyone who labels someone else’s opinion or viewpoint as "bias" and "prejudice" in order to make their argument is not entering into the spirit of debate we expected when we created these pages. Can you not see those are unreasonable personal jibes? Will you at least give a committment not to continue in this vein?

Michael - your views on Moyes do have more than a hint of prejudice. Can you not at least give the guy some credit for what has been achieved since March 2002? You refer to the spirit of debate ? is it entering into the spirit of debate to have such a bias view of Moyes. As I have said SEVERAL times ? I do not agree with all of Moyes tactics, think every signing he has made has been brilliant nor do I think every substitution he makes is great or agree with every team selection. But I do think the bloke deserves a lot of credit for taking our club to some very good league positions. And even you would admit some of the criticisms of Moyes have bordered on hatred.

Michael, I have asked you nicely not to characterize people’s opinions and viewpoints as bias and prejudice. Yet you are continuing to do that. Can I please have a commitment from you that you will stop doing this or making other personal jibes that are to denigrate views you happen to disagree with. That is not acceptable on this forum.

Michael - I do not see that I have been denigrating anyone only expressing an alternative view to yours. I would agree totally that you are entitled to your opinion that Moyes is not the man for the job. However I think he is doing a reasonable job. As regards having a faulty memory I was not suggesting that my memory is better than yours merely pointing out that last season most Evertonians seemed happy with the progress we were making. Have the same players suddenly become bad players in less than a year?
With regard to an unacceptable viewpoint ? I have not used any abusive or vitriolic language at all.
Basically you don?t think Moyes is doing a good job ? I think he is. Is that not the main issue?

Michael, I have taken some personal abuse on this site; comments which you have seen fit to remove. However, do you not think you should let them state their views and let Evertonians decide? Fools will show themselves to be fools. I will enter into debate with anyone, personal abuse which I received in the last few days really doesn?t bother me.

Thanks Lewis, let’s hope you’re right and we rip through Boro at the weekend!

Michael & Andy, in the interests of keeping things civil on here, we have a low tolerance of personal abuse, which is one of the main causes for the degeneration of discussion threads into slanging matches on internet forums. Using terms like "bias" and "prejudice" to characterize other people's opinions, or accusing people of hatred for expressing their considered opinions is personal abuse and it is not acceptable.