By "demographics of Liverpool as an area are not hugely compelling", I take it he means that there’s a pretty successful team here already. Regrettably, I believe that the RS success holds us back in more than the obvious ways. Not that a move to Kirkby will help at all by the way!

No, what he means is Liverpool?s a shit hole.

He?s describing Liverpool the team as a fragile financial deck of cards which could collapse in 2009. He said there is no interest in Everton. And then goes on to say that the demographics of Liverpool are not compelling. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/e/everton/7723104.stm

Thanks for the link Ron. Every cloud has a silver lining eh? Hope the RS’s loans get called in. Can you imagine Rafa having to work with what he’s got - and no ability to swap players out on a whim?

Interesting that you make it out that someone saying that Liverpool is not the best of places; yet then states your location as North West......

Nathan, I do indeed reside outside of the Liverpool postcode, however, I was born in Liverpool and have many relations who still live in the city.

I pointed out what Mr. Harris said was a major reason, it doesn?t mean I agree with him.

I also voted against the move to Kirkby because I want Everton to retain their city of Liverpool status.

What happens to our neighbours is of no concern to me, but they are not in the same predicament as ourselves because they are members of the sky four and will be ?rescued? despite of everything.

I believe there is also an undercurrent of the relative (to other major cities) small local population making it difficult to sustain two major clubs particularly when the earning potential of that population is fairly low (again relative to other major cities).

This is where London, Birmingham and Manchester score heavily against us. Even Newcastle outscores Merseyside in that it supports only one major team.

And before some idiot comes on, no Kirkby wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference in this respect.

From the above link:

But Harris said: "There has been no progress at all (with finding a buyer for Everton). ..."

That was disappointing to me.

I agree totally with Steve Williams ? a situation made worse by the pre-eminence of the two teams. I fear our star may only rise when the RS implode ? maybe the credit crunch can have some dubious beneficial side effect!

But Harris said: "There has been no progress at all (with finding a buyer for Everton). ..."

Hmmm... but a potential buyer found Everton, just not through Keith. Perhaps he should start there.

Lyndon, are you referring to a prospective buyer that may have been found by Amanda Staveley? Does she work separately or in conjunction with Keith Harris? I’m following from afar ... 6,000 miles away.

Why the hell did Harris mention Liverpool FC. I will tell you why ? because it glosses over the fact that Kenwright ain't going anywhere. A pile of manure since day one. Well done, Kenwright ? it took the heat of you when we had no money and couldn't even put 11 first teamers on the park. Job done, Billy Bullshit.

No, another prospective buyer, Ron. The Amanda Staveley angle is a relatively new one to me and I have no idea whether there’s anything in it. The Daily Mail are adamant we’re going to be sold but their record where the truth is concerned is so bad at the moment that I can’t believe anything I read about Everton in that paper.

The Daily Mail isn’t unreliable, regarding Everton, at the moment.

The Daily Mail is unreliable, regarding everything, all the time.

This guy, Harris, has to be either the worst investment banker in living history or he is displaying a bad case of sour grapes. If you are trying to sell something you do not, I repeat, do not list all the reasons not to buy the club. Unless you are stupid. More than likely he tried to sell the club but couldn?t and is now trying to make sure no other broker can steal in and make him look inept. There might be some truth in the Daily Mail report, in that this other broker is trying to sell the club. Whether it happens or not I have no idea.

From Wikipedia...sums this guy up......
Orville the Duck is the puppet of ventriloquist Keith Harris. Orville is a green duckling who wears nothing but a nappy with a large safety pin on the front.

Orville appeared on BBC television from 1982 to 1990 on The Keith Harris Show, which featured assorted puppets such as Orville the Duck and Cuddles the Monkey.
Orville’s high point was Keith Harris’ and Orville’s hit single named "Orville’s Song" ? "I wish I could sell, right up to the bell, but I can’t..."

After Gerry?s amusing bit of Irish, I?ll come on with a dampener. I?ve banged on here a couple of times making essentially Harris?s ?demographics? point. Setting out all of the aspects of that point will take too long ? they include Liverpool FC (a global brand) and Liverpool (the place) ain?t London. I agree that Kirkby is not the answer ? but not for the reasons posited by most of my fellow Toffees. Despite what ?the "it?s not in the City" crew? say, it really is in the same ?demographic?.

Call him names and question his credibility if you like, but give Harris some due: he, unlike any of us football fantasy manager/owner armchair philosophers, is actually out there in the real World treading the boards and trying (if only out of self-interest) to get someone to buy us. He says he?s tried, but no-one will buy. And he?s given the reason why they won?t. We have to give him and his posited reason some serious thought ? that latter is what?s coming back to him from real live buyers or the agents. If he?s right, what?s on the cards is this.

If the Shite don?t go broke ? or if they do, they are rescued (as Anthony, perhaps correctly, thinks they will be), then we face a very iffy future unless we get the hell out of town to somewhere where the ?demographic? is such that it will support an onwards and upwards EPL team that we all want to support. Frankly, I don?t think there?s anywhere in Britain.

If that?s so, then Everton moving offshore is the answer. Yes, I know it?s against current FA rules but, just as Anthony?s probably correct in saying those rules will be bent to buggery if the Shite look like toppling over, I?ll bet if an attractive enough business case is made, they?ll sanction it. Dublin, Dubai, Kuwait ? there?s a few starters for you.

As usual loads of talk with Everton but no action.

Is there really anything new in this "news" story?

Newcastle have yet to find a buyer, despite cutting the price. Portsmouth have yet to announce a buyer but funnily enough they must have the right demographic ? with a ground that holds 20,000??? the new buyer there needs to fund a new stadium as well. And what is with "the demographic of Liverpool isn?t all that compelling" ? I thought we were being sold that the game is global these days and the Premier League needed to go abroad to capitalise.

With a club that regularly attracts 35,000+ (and has done for many years) struggling to sell, it tells you something else is going on and the demographics is a just a quote.

If Everton as an established (top-half) Premier League club ? with 35k regular fans, tv deals and all the revenues that brings ? can?t find a buyer because they are not attractive, then that means there are concerns over future revenues and this must be the same for every club regardless of their ownership situation.

Now if future revenues are a concern how can Liverpool re-finance their debt? Try going to your mortgage company telling them you want to re-mortgage but your income has gone down by 10% and none of the houses on your street can sell, think they?ll do it? If top names are finding it difficult then what is the betting we?ll see some established lower league names disappear?

Harris is covering his back. He is putting all of his efforts into Newcastle and so hasn't found anyone for Everton. He is blatently another Newcastle scout, who ever is looking like going to Everton, point them in the direction of Newcastle and shaft them instead. If people weren?t interested in buying football clubs they wouldn?t be interested in Newcastle/Portsmouth/West Ham etc just as much as Everton.

Demographics is a bollocks excuse as well, Liverpool is the city of culture is it not? Plus we have coped with being in Liverpool for a few years now and those American numpties were ok about the place too. Yes there is another major team in the city but there was in Manchester also.

The people who are wanting to buy football clubs are multi-billionaires for Christ's sake. And the oil tycoons are not being affected by the credit crisis. They want to buy an English club because of the brand that the Premier League has to offer. After that, Everton has lots more to offer: They are one of (and in recent seasons the best) the best of the rest. They play in Europe, yes we also have a brilliant history etc etc ? you guys know the score.

There is no excuse, even in the current financial crisis, for people being interested in any team other than Everton, apart from the fact that the sellers are shit at their job. Anyway it was only a few weeks ago that Harris was talking up the chances of selling Everton.

In my perfect world, Liverpool will go under and we will build our new Stadium on Stanley Park.

Sounds to me like Harris is trying to buy some time.

Instead of wishing for a new owner who would almost certainly destroy everything Everton stands for, let?s get behind ?Our Man? and support his every effort to hang on to a club that has only seen great progress since he ?saved? it.

Now that the manager he so wisely appointed has signed up for another five years, we know the team is in good hands. The successful outcome of the stadium move would be another massive building block in the establishment of New Everton.

Here we go again. A man, and a reasonably well informed man at that, speaks out briefly about the difficulties in selling football clubs during a global financial meltdown, and the particular challenges with Everton, and the Kenwright bashers & conspiracy theorists are back in their element.

Get real. Consider for example why a rich individual with no emotional ties to any club would choose Everton over, say, Newcastle. Regardless of recent performances, one club sells out to 52,000 every game in a modern stadium in a one-club city. The other rarely sells out in an antiquated stadium (that needs replacing at considerable cost), shares a city with one of the best known clubs in the world, and is not a million miles from Manchester.

Even Portsmouth, to an investor, might (sadly) look far more interesting than Everton. Pompey may need a new stadium, but they are in a great location on the south coast with a massive catchment area of decent prosperity and no Premier League opponent within almost 100 miles.

Man City could be argued as the exception that proves the rule, but they were also a ready-made proposition with a super modern stadium, good infrastructure etc etc.

Why do so many Evertonians think they know better than Bill Kenwright, Keith Harris, Amanda Staveley et al? What delusion is being suffered to make you think these multi-millionaires/billionaires don?t have your insight? They have all succeeded both in the football world and other industries.

The reality is, and some will deny it to their grave, we are in a hole. In the absence of a sugar daddy, and Keith Harris?s portents are not encouraging, we currently have just one way out that is affordable, i.e. Kirkby. Regardless of the pros & cons of how it looks, feels, or even the (very well made) points about transport infrasturcture, it remains the only game in town for Everton to leverage itself upwards.

All very sad, but all very true. It?s unfortunate that so many of us revel in denial.

Here?s a thought;
Blue Bill, under immense pressure to sell but still wanting to keep hold of his train set and ego booster, comes up with this beauty of a plan. Gets in touch with Keith Harris and asks him to ?pretend? to look for a buyer, during which time the fans will get off his back to sell. After a while Mr Harris starts mummers that, due to circumstances beyond his control, no one wants to buy. The result being, Kenwright keeps hold of his shares/chairmanship and can say to everyone ?I tried to sell but no-one wants it? and fans get off his back because ?he did try to sell?, meanwhile Keith Harris keeps his reputation because its not his fault the club is un-buyable.

Far fetched?? Remember this is a man who told an AGM that FSF was going to invest only for it to be revealed a few weeks later that FSF is total bullshit, so I wouldn?t put anything past him.

Would there be any particular reason for the withholding of Bill?s terms and conditions from the supporters?

I fail to see how this could be a matter of commercial sensitivity...

Alan is right, and we need to face up to reality. Harris says that Liverpool and especially Everton are both financially struggling in the current environment because: Liverpool is a relatively poor city; it has two clubs (particularly bad for Everton as we are the poorer and less well known one); both clubs need to find millions to build new stadiums. (He could also have added that both clubs, relative to their respective sizes, are groaning under a weight of debt.) Which of this isn’t true and relevant?

Very quickly the demographic Harris is on about is right. Firstly from a club perspective I?d like you to think about this and who the most ?attractive? investment financially would be.

So take EFC first: Debts of around £60m (pure guesswork but not unlikely given new overdraft facility of £30m a few weeks ago) Club worth around £80m but need to finance or redevelop stadium. Tops £100m. New players probably need to spend another £100m for better quality players and the way things are player prices wise probably £30m per year for players. Let's say we have a 5 year plan so that?s another £150m investment required. So a total of approximately £500m over 5 years including stadium, and players and club acquisition.

Now for Liverpool: Debts of around £350m, club owners want to make a profit so you could probably buy the club for £400m. They need a new stadium, supposedly going to cost another £350m on top of this they have to fund players so let?s say that they only spend the £30m per season for 5 years like us as their squad is ?stronger? than ours so there?s another £150m. So including all of the above you are looking at an investment of approximately £900m for LFC.

If we look at the demographics of Liverpool and in particular Anfield and Walton, it?s not great reading. Low income, high unemployment. Meaning that the chances of the investor recouping any of his money from the local economy is very unlikely. Maybe Liverpool and their foreign mates will be more attractive to the investor but will they be £400m more attractive. For basically half the investment in LFC you could have built the stadium, bought the players and cleared the debt in 5 years. Hopefully you would have also won a thing or two and ramped up the marketing to boot.

The city of Liverpool over the past 30-40 years has seen one of the biggest declines in population in the UK. Everton (I believe) also has one of the oldest fanbases in the Premier League. This isn?t going to make the club an attractive proposition to invest in I?m afraid to say.

Ciaran:

?????????? Why should Bill Kenwright do something that no other businessman in the world would do? If you genuinely fail to see the commercial sensitivity of putting terms & conditions of a potential business sale into the public domain then you clearly have zero idea of how business works. Everton is a business and a private enterprise.

Your views on Kenwright are well known, as is my disagreement with them. That?s fine. Your emotional attachment to Everton (or anything else), like mine, is just that. Kenwright?s attachment is viceral, legal and financial. He mortgaged his home in his bid to buy the club. Do you think he should also reveal the scale of his borrowings to show his commitment to the club?

I?m afraid many Evertonians need to try harder to get their head around what?s happening with our club. It?s not about Kenwright, it?s about the club. It isn?t Kenwright?s fault that we don?t have the cash, it?s because nobody has come up with it. Kenwright rescued us from Agent Johnson, remember? At the time he was head of a queue of 1.

It appears too many blue-noses (possibly including yourself) still operate under the illusion that Kenwright has been inundated with huge financial offers from Arabs, Americans, Russians and Chinese to buy into the uniquely attractive & successful global brand that is EFC. It?s utter bollocks, and yes, I was being facetious.

Whatever the rights & wrongs of Kirkby (and I wish we had a better option), without a very rich investor it represents the ONLY current (see below) way to step up from the big hole we are in. We need money, a stadium, more players, bigger & better business infrastructure, better football, more engaging manager (some would argue). Keith Harris was just stating the bleeding obvious that many have known for a while.

However, IMHO the ONLY way forward for both Everton and Liverpool is a joint stadium. I regard the idea of building not one but TWO big new stadia in such close proximity as being commercially and morally ridiculous. The amount of debt required is a joke, the waste and compromise involved is a joke.

If the two clubs joined forces, with the full weight of the council and EC development fund, then the city could realise one fantastic stadium of 70,000 or more, rather than two above average stadiums of 50 - 60,000. Each club could co-own the operating company who?s sole focus would be maintaining & maximising usage and revenue of the facility.

Why?
- Lower debt for both clubs. Highly desirable.
- One of the best stadium facilities in the world
- Shared (i.e. reduced) operating costs
- Higher revenue from bigger gates, prestige games, other events
- Higher value of both clubs to investors
- Fantastic cachet for the whole city & region

But it won?t happen because whilst football is indeed a business in some ways, it keeps its head well and truly up its arse where common sense is concerned. This is the elephant in the room that everyone should be talking about. Instead everyone is hanging on to bigotry and stupidity to stop a sensible discussion taking place (most of the blame rests with the dark side & Rick Parry, but we have our bigots too).

We need to stop blaming Kenwright for anything & everything and move the argument on. We shouldn?t be starting from here, fair enough, but how do we get to THERE?

Well said again Alan. Hopefully at last sound common sense will now prevail and both Everton and Liverpool football clubs will soon be in urgent and serious discussions with the LCC to bring about a joint stadium. Anything else is now virtually criminal.

It is Kenwright's fault that we don?t have any cash ? he?s running the show and has been on the board since the early 90s and has been responsible for countless balls ups and fairytale stories.

As I?ve said he?s been on the board since the early 90s and been in charge since Gregg left; in all seriousness, how long is it gonna take for him to get his act together??

He is an absolute joke and has no defence because he has has loads of time to get his shit together.

Everton were skint long before Kenwright or even Johnson was in control. It all goes back to our glory days I’m afraid. It’s not as simple as getting his shit together, how can Everton in its current state make money?

Only by selling players, selling assets, increasing prices, or increasing commercial income. Without going into detail about it all, Everton are a small club in terms of matchday turnover, due to the fact that we are one of the cheapest clubs to attend in the league and get hardly any revenue from corporate facilities.

We’ll never be able to address most of our problems whilst the ground is in its current condition, no matter how many tents we stick in a car park, or former players we invite. We’ve just got to accept that we don’t get much money in, and therefore, only a crazy blue would buy us and there does not seem to be any of them about with the level of money required.

We’ve just got to face up to the fact that we aren’t the attractive proposition to buyers we think we are, and in the mean time the club earns little to put things right. Barring a miracle, nothing is likely to change for the foreseeable future.

You are absolutely right, Steve, EFC hasn?t ?wiped its nose? since Littlewoods stopped picking up the tab more than 30 years ago. The problems starting mounting up whilst Sir John and his nominees were at the helm and subsequent ?owners? have been unable ? or unwilling ? to address them. Like more or less every other club, Everton lives well beyond its means ? paying huge transfer fees and wages it can in no way afford.

Many clubs have season ticket income for the next 25 years mortgaged and the money long spent. This year's costs are paid from further loans raised on next year?s ? or the year afterwards ? Sky monies and the further borrowings needed to build two new stadiums on Merseyside may well send at least one of the clubs to the wall.
Surely, even if common sense can be ignored, sheer necessity will determine that a joint community stadium must be the only answer.

At a client meeting in Dubai recently, we were with a Sheikh who was called by a British contact (presumably Harris?); when he came off the phone he smiled saying he had just been offered Everton Football Club. He then asked my more senior colleague as to whether the club was a good investment! This colleague was a Hammers fan and didn't give us the best write-up! But, having said all that, this particular billionaire isn't interested in buying an English football club at the moment.

What is interesting ? and this story is 100 per cent true ? is that someone, somewhere is trying to sell the club!

From the BBC site:

The sale of Newcastle United is progressing "extremely well", according to the man who is brokering the deal.

Keith Harris, chairman of investment bank Seymour Pierce, told BBC Radio 5 Live there are several groups who are "seriously interested" in the club.

This is from a month ago.... I guess it ain?t going so well anymore.

I would not like to be the RS right now. And is it possible that we have reached the ZENITH of salaries and pricing and all things related to football.

How exactly does debt work? You buy a club but you don?t actually put any money into it, and you load it with debt and you think the vlaue will continue to rise, and when it doesn?t you have to go hat in hand to the bankers? They owe the banks £350 million..... Where exactly are they going to get the money?

Alan,

I don’t accept your assertion that disclosing the terms and conditions of the sale that is something wild and whacky in the world of business!

Surely you need to tell people what your willing to accept in both fiscal and conditions for the sale of the club! Ashley has no problems doing it!

What do you see as the problems with this approach Alan?

The only problem I could see is that he has something to hide...

ps:... we know the scale of Kenwright's borrowings... or at least the upper limit of them: they are no more than the 8 million quid his shares cost!

I am so relieved to read Alan?s comments, clearly and succinctly expounded.

When reading the comments of those against his view of our common problem, the comparison is so obvious and apparent to me who, by and large, am no businss man.

People talk sagely of our great history. Tell me please what is so great about it.
We had a successful period when we enjoyed the ?Moores? money but never achieved anything like the success of our neighbours.

Its long past time so many of us called a halt to blaming everything on Bill Kenwright. I?m sure he?s no financial wizard, he doesn?t need to be, his expertise is on show business, where he operates with considerable success.

The next few years I suspect are going to be very very difficult for Everton FC and idiotic comments are not going to help us ride out the next few years. It's support. Let's try and see where we can find that amongst our wonderful supporters.

Whatever Kenwright’s borrowings were to buy control, he stepped up to the table when nobody else did and saved the club from implosion.

The scale of his wealth (or lack of) is also no real secret Ciaran. He did what he could. The fact that he can do no more owes everything to the crazy escalation in prices and salaries for the pampered nancy boys that kiss the badge every week and Everton’s desire to stay in contention as much as possible, but increasing inability to do so from a financial perspective.

Kenwright has alowed Moyes to add to his squad in a way that many people thoiught was impossible (Johnson, Yakubu, Fellaini, ...). On that point alone, and given the full context, the idea that Kenwright gets anything other than praise is beyond me (and beyond many peope that know football and business inside out). And yet a vocal minority of blue-noses hold him responsible for every sin imaginable. It’s comical.

I think we should all get used to the fact that Everton probably won’t get bought anytime soon. Newcastle is self-evidently a better option for an investor, but even Ashley (gaumless wanker that he is) might struggle to get a price he finds acceptable.

So we can either stew on it and pour forth with more & more bile, or we can move it on and try to elevate both the dialogue and the mood. Kirkby clearly depresses a lot of people, but if we have to go it alone then Kirkby will be where we do it. Increasingly, my thoughts focus on the countless benefits to both EFC and LFC from a magnificent joint stadium. It adds up on every single point with one exception, bigotry.

If we had gates of 60,000, a membership of 500,000 and a waiting list of 50,000 then yeah, let’s build it ourselves. But last time I checked we have gates of below 35,000, no waiting list, no meaningful membership, and we share not just a city (and a poor one at that) but a small suburb within a city with one of the worlds most well known clubs (that was hard to say).

The solution to this crisis is so fucking obvious it’s untrue. But yet again, whilst football is indeed a business, when it comes to the important decisions it’s head up arse time and another dose of fickleness & myopic bigotry from the fans.

In fact, having considered this matter every which way one can for so long, I think it’s time to give fans an opportunity to speak their mind. I think there’s a quiet majority who would welcome a Merseyside stadium to rival anything in the world. I shall divert energy into a website to gather votes & views on this one topic. If it works out how I believe it will, the clubs will be presented with the results.

Ciaran
Why don?t you borrow £8m and buy BK?s shares - I?m sure he?ll sell them to you. By the way you would also have to take on the Club?s liabilities (which is what BK had to do) but at least you could then make all the decisions rather than making suggestions.

Alan,

Glad of the debate for a change, but I have to strongly disagree with the rosy view of Kenwright as our saviour knight riding into town on a tall grey stallion..

This was a man who was complicit, as a board member - in the actions of the Peter Johnson you rightly villify.. I don?t recall a threat to resign from that position in protest at Johnson?s activities... or indeed even a muttering of discontent.

The facts are that Mr Kenwright bought this club knowing that he could not provide sufficient funds to operate the club as an investment... and he undermined moves by his TBH partner to actually deliver investment when it might have meant him stepping aside...

You have one view on Kenwright, I have another..mine is of a man who has delivered no investment for this club whatsoever, survived on the back of selling our greatest talent ever, while cack handedly and recklessly promising the fans everything under the sun..

You suggest that the buying of Yak, Beattie, AJ or even Fellaini represents a reasonable way of placating fans..I would disagree. We live in a financial environment that although fettered at the moment, rakes in over 50 million pound a year from TV licensing alone... the fact that we rely on this money for our salaries is not an indictment of the salaries themselves, because they are a fact of football that everyone has to deal with.... it is an indictment on Kenwrights tenure, a tenure in which our revenue streams have been gullotined, outsourced or sold off... a tenure which means we owe any remaining revenue streams for the next X amount of years to the bank... because Bill has had to run cap in hand to the banks due to his innability to pump any non-recoverable investment into this club!


Now, you might say...?but he doesn?t have any money?....

but my response is quite succinct....this is not a new fact, its an old one..that has existed since he took the reins and existed while he was chasing people away who might have had the money to invest..

Personally, financial climate aside, I?m not surprised this club can?t find a buyer... but I?d still like to know what caveats Bill is putting on the sale and I don?t think that?s an unreasonable thing for the fans of a club to ask!

So I?ll ask again... what is commercially sensitive about fans knowing the terms and conditions of Bill sale?

ps: I agree with your share stadium opinion. In fact I think it?s a no brainer!

Alan
I agree with all you say except the joint stadium A joint stadium is a fudge. What the clubs need to do is amalgamate. I firmly believe that to be the way forward for a lot of clubs and can see someone doing it soon. Why not be the first.

Peter:

That’s bold, and mad. A stadium is a facility and the sharing of it is not a fudge in any way, shape or form. In the case of the 2 clubs in Liverpool it’s the only way forward.

Historically it’s been a issue of coincidence and pride that 2 of the top 4 clubs in England are 400 yds apart in one city. It all changed the year after the premier league was launched and ManU got back in the saddle for the first time in 27 years. Since then money has followed money, exponentially.

Despite this, the idea that we need to merge clubs is, I have to say, the barmiest suggestion I’ve seen so far.

Ciaran:

You seem to be inadvertantly making my point for me. It is not news that Kenwright doesn not have the funds to take Everton on to the same stage as the RS, Chelski etc etc.

He has facilitated growth and success on the pitch through borrowing & guarantees. So what? It’s neither unique, nor a surprise, nor fundamentally bad. So I just don’t see any point in what you’re saying.

As for the hordes of investors he’s turned away, how on earth do you know this and can you let us know who they are and the details of what they would have invested etc. If we have some evidence then perhaps it will enable people to refrain from disregarding such unsubstantiated claims or speculation.

The thing is, Everton is viewed in the football industry (by other clubs, by the media and by the Deloittes of the world) as well run and well managed. Now even I know that we have missed opportunities off the pitch and our marketing is 2nd rate, but the overall stewardship of the club is no way as bad as you suggest with your constant criticisms of Kenwright. He may not be the best, but he’s a long long way from being the worst.

Alan Kirwin, I’m afraid I’m in the same camp as Ciaran when it comes to my feelings towards Kenwright.

I do also though believe that a joint-stadium idea is the way forward, and wish you all the best if the creation of your website and look forward to seeing how it develops.

Why is anyone on this forum surprised that WE cannot find a buyer? We have a very high opinion of our levoed Football Club. Unfortunately, it is a football club housed in a building that is falling down, it?s own internal workings are 2nd division at best, it would take a lot of pounds to make all of those things right. And to top it all off, the banks aren?t exactly getting in each other?s way to lend money to people who want to buy football clubs. And the Arabs are having money problems too. When OIL was $150 a barrel ,that?s one thing, but when its below $60 that?s a problem even for the Chelski?s.

If you had the money would YOU buy us? I know I wouldn?t. I would buy Newcastle because it?s stadium is very viable and their support is already at the necessary 50,000 per game. Our is at best 35,000. Where are the other 15,000 supporters going to come from. Not from the Greater Liverpool area, not from Greater Manchester.

I?ve been most impressed with your posts on this topic, Alan. I know you?re not being disrespectful in saying so; however, I don?t think that Peter is being entirely ?mad? in raising the issue of amalgamation. And I?m not being facetious in observing that we?re no longer in the 19th or 20th centuries in the context of your observation on the ?issue of coincidence and pride?. If Harris?s ?demographics? point and everything it entails is reality and "money [follows] money, exponentially", along with shared stadium the elephants in the room include "amalgamation" and "moving from Merseyside".

Amalgamation and moving away have been incidents of rugby league and Australian Rules in Australia involving ?traditional? teams in their way as fervently supported as Everton and Liverpool. And as with Sky, the hand of the beloved Rupert had a part to play.

Steve: You make a compelling case for the unstoppable march of change. Maybe it is all just a matter of time & money. Good post.

This points to a joint stadium. The way things are going, we are both going to end up skint ? and that won?t help the city.

EGM 2004 =Chris Samuelson
EGM 2008 = Keith Harris

Work it out for yourselves....

Just to explain to all the people who don't understand why BK gets so much flak.

Amount brought into EFC by BK = 0!!!

Debt increase since BK took over: £69 million plus £27 million we got for Rooney, which if we hadn't got = £96 million.

Number of Chief execs = 4 in 8 years.

Number of lies told = too many to count.

Marketing improvement since BK took over = -300%

Now for those shortsighted people that believe support and marketing end with the population of Liverpool rather than a worldwide audience of 350 million, I also have to point out that whilst Liverpool?s population is around 0.5 million, Newcastle's is only 190,000 so that rather negates the "one club, one city" argument and why Newcastle is more attractive than EFC?

Keith Harris's comments almost exactly echo Bullshit Billy?s claim for moving to Kirkby with his comment about having another bigger club in the same city.

?It?s a terrific club and having Bill Kenwright as chairman is one of the club?s strongest selling points." ? I wonder who wrote that script for him.City were sold in a matter of weeks. Portsmouth, QPR!! FFS.

If there is a willing seller there is a willing buyer. The only thing this credit crunch affects is the buying price.

There seems to be a perception that the only reason EFC cannot be sold is because of the caveats BK is placing on the deal. I can only say that if the finances of the club are in the mess so many believe them to be and BK is the guarantor of the accumulated debts, his only thought would be to get rid of it to someone else so he could sleep nights again.

My only hope is that things will get so desperate over the park that our rivals will have no alternative but to buy into the joint stadium deal. When that happens, the City Council will really have the chance to show how much they really want two clubs in this city!

Alan,

I never mentioned ?hordes? of investors... You jumped to a conclusion there. I was primarily talking about Gregg and Kings dock... and possibly also Lerner if there?s any truth in it. Nothing more, as there?s no point engaging in entirely speculative musings.

The man knew he couldn?t invest anything other than the cost of his shares when he bought it. Is that the actions of a benevolent guardian or the actions of an egotistical chancer?

We?ll never agree on this... but then again such is life.

ps: You still haven?t told me what could possibly be commecially sensitive about Kenwright revealing his terms for the sale!

Peter Howard,

Can we assume you were taking the piss?

Better idea....fuck Harris off and use Amanda Stavely to find us a buyer. Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t she in cahoots with DIC to buy the shite?

Ciaran
No-far from it
Steve
Thanks. What is that Einstein quote:
"... if an idea does not at first seem absurd then it will in all probability fail...." ( or something like that ! )

Jay Harris:

You can make stats say anything you want. You clearly use them to pervert a point in your favour. Re population, Liverpool (i.e. greater Liverpool to represent a catchment area rather than simply the city boundary) has 816,000 people. Tyneside (which is Newcastle, Gateshead, Jarrow, N & S Shields - i.e. Newcastle?s immediate catchment area) is 890,0000.

And aside from that, your point is refuted not only be me, but by those who operate in the circles where investors live. How exactly is it that you are better placed to judge Everton as an investment than say Keith Harris? He knows this world inside out. What?s your qualifications in this regard?

As for the Kenwright assasination, same old same old. There are many very well quaified and respected people in football and business who judge Kenwright to have done a good job in the circumstances. I?m kinda between the two extremes. You are entitled to an opinion like anyone else. But please don?t dress it up as fact. It?s about as much fact as your population stats.

Ciaran:

I can?t believe you?re still asking this!!! Anyway, aside from the totally obvious...

If I were selling something as significant as a Premier League club, I would not be publicising my price or caveats for the world to see. It would have something to do with my bargaining position, or scaring off potential buyers if I set it too high, etc etc etc. That?s why it?s done via someone like Keith Harris or Amanda Staveley. It avoids commercial stupidity. Everton is a private, not public company. It?s a matter for the directors and shareholders to decide and not for pubic debate.

Alan,

I was still asking because I never recieved an answer.... I didn?t consider the dismisive and incorrect suggestion that I have zero business acumen as an entirely reasoned response.

As for your reasoning ? if his stipulation was merely a matter of price, then I fail to see how disclosure of a reasonable price would undermine his bargaining positioning.

However, if his position on price was particularly ludicrous, then this disclosure may have an effect ? but then again, in that scenario we are surely entitled to know we are being priced out of a buy.

If his stipulations are more than merely price then we have a similar situation... if these are reasonable conditions then there is no way this could affect his bargaining position ? and therefore it would do no harm to let us know... if these conditions are unreasonable then we are entitled to know that we are being priced out of a buy by unreasonable clauses.

I still don?t see how disclosure of the conditions would scare off any serious potential buyer... disclosing these broad conditions is not offer for acceptance, it is merely a negotiation position that also seeks to placate a majority section of the fans who are understandably not exactly trusting of our great leader...

Ciarán, I think you?re taking a rather cloistered position on this ?caveats and conditions? business. It seems part of your basis for wanting to know is "it?s our club, we have a right to know."

Well, simply put, it isn?t and we don?t.

As Alan says, EFC is a privately held "asset" and it?s disposal to another buyer is an entirely private business transaction... apart from what details need to be published at Companies House or made known to the Shareholders per the Articles of Association.

I know this response offends the emotional sensibilites of fans who believe they "own" the club but the cold hard facts are that they don?t. Bill Kenwright and the other major shareholders do.

Ciaran (and others) you might want to look at the end of the ’Spurred to Compare’ thread. Laurie Cooper actually provides some indications as to what these ’caveats and conditions’ might be - although in the end it is not perhaps wholly conclusive in providing a clear condemnation of Kenwright on this score.

Ciaran:

No intent to be dismissive or patronizing in any way. Apologies if that’s how it came across.

It’s simply that from 25 years of business, including owning & running private companies, I find your suggestion strange and naiive. To me the answer is simple & obvious. Michael’s post simply re-states the reason why.

Alan
quote from North Tyneside council site

¡North Tyneside has a population of 191,659, (source: 2001 Census), although that figure is estimated by the National Statistics Office to be currently around 195,000 (source: ONS Revised Mid-2006 estimate).

Liverpool City Centre alone is estimated at just under 0.5 million people.

As you rightly say statistics can prove anything but I am merely quoting City for City as the argument put forward by Keith Harris seemed to emphasise.

Now I dont want to get into an argument about Kenwright as some people have their views and I have mine but I cannot stand liars and that together with his commercial ineptitude and the claim that he’s a "true blue" goes right through me.

To add to that his intransigence about DK stinks to high heaven.

I would also ask you not to call into question my credentials to comment about what’s going on at EFC.I may not be Keith Harris but I am certainly capable of a well judged opinion on commercial deals as are many toffeeweb posters on here.

As David Johnson said:

EGM 2004 =Chris Samuelson
EGM 2008 = Keith Harris

Work it out for yourselves....

Michael,

I don’t buy the somewhat unsophisted analysis that football clubs are distinct from their fans in teh same way a normal business is distinct from its customers..

Thats a contrived argument that has no basis in reality. Football clubs are dependent upon a static market - and generate everything from that market.

It’s certainly not as simple as the ’it’s a private business transaction’...Its also not a simple as ’we have an absolute right to know the conditions’....but I never purported that to be my position..

Alan,

You weren’t patronizing. You were merely stating your position.

Anyway, as I’ve responded to Michael - I don’t feel there’s an exact corellation with normal business due process here...If there was then i’d be in complete agreement - but its a little more complex than a standard sale of business transaction!

Jay:

The population issue is a red herring. Why do you use North Tyneside as a comparison. Tyneside itself is almost 900,000, Liverpool/Merseyside is just over 800,000. The population within the boundary of the City of Liverpool (as distinct from Liverpool City Centre as you wrongly suggest) is indeed almost 500,000. The two immediate metropolitan catchment areas are similar (i.e. Tyneside is 10% larger). However you try to re-draw the chart the situation remains exactly as Keith Harris put it. Newcastle is a 1-club city and Liverpool is a 2-club city, with both conurbations being of broadly similar size.

Keith Harris is not stupid, nor I suspect is he ignorant to the pro’s & con’s of selling large metropolitan sporting enterprises that would be priced according to various criteria including catchment, population, attendances etc etc. His point re Newcastle v Everton is spot on. From an investment perspective Newcastle is a MAJOR plus. Pity you seem incapable of viewing such things objectively.

Don’t know where you are going with your latest Kenwright diatribe. EGM 2004/2008 etc. Are you suggesting the apointment of Keith Harris is merely a charade, or indeed a lie? If not (and it clearly isn’t), what on earth is it that we have to work out for oursleves?

Why shouldn’t anyone question your credentials regarding the why’s & wherefore’s of selling Everton FC? You promote rumour and opinion as fact, you offer utterly distorted statistics to seemingly try to prove that you have a beter grasp of this issue than, say, Keith Harris. You may be some sort of business genius for all I know. And perhaps it’s just a coincidence that businessmen who have been demonstrably successful in a variety of fields, and who know Kenwright &/or football, believe him to have done a good job.

Or maybe all these guys, like the billionaire Philip Green, Keith Harris, Robert Earl, David Dein et al need to bow in ignorance to your superior knowledge of the unique sporting business conundrum that is Everton FC. I have no qualms with arguments that start with "I think...", or better still ones that use real facts to sustain a viewpoint. But I have no truck with people that throw gossip, speculation & distorted stats around and dress it all up as a fact. It might help to make you angrier and generate a more frenzied TW thread, but it contributes nothing.

You clearly have a thing about Kenwright, as indeed does Ciaran. Your accusations of lying, commercial ineptitude and, best of all, being a true blue, are quite bizarre. Firstly he clearly is an Evertonian to his core, that’s indisputable. He also founded and runs one of the most successful theatre production companies in the world, so commercial ineptitude is another label that stems from personal frustration rather than established fact. As for lying, I’m yet to see or hear any facts that Bill Kenwright knowingly misled anyone over anything important. Kings Dock was a fiasco and I was deeply upset it didn’t happen. But I also have other priorities in life and have moved on.

And, if I may make a suggestion, it might make for a more interesting and useful debate if we all moved on to thoughts and ideas about now, e.g. Moyes, Arteta, shared stadium, rather than turning almost every thread into an anti Kenwright diatribe. What a pity we don’t have Peter Johnson at the helm these days. Now there’s an honest & commercially astute businessman if ever I saw one.

Alan
I don't have time to get into it now as I?m just about to got out but it would be useful if you could explain which of the following is speculation or wildly distorted statistics.

Amount brought into EFC by BK = 0!!!

Debt increase since BK took over: £69 million plus £27 million we got for Rooney, which if we hadn?t got = £96 million.

Number of Chief execs = 4 in 8 years.

Number of lies told = too many to count.

Marketing improvement since BK took over = -300%



Newcastle city centre population currently around 195,000 (source: ONS Revised Mid-2006 estimate)

Oh you may have a point on the marketing department.

As BK?s such a genius at business it may not have declined 300% it may be even worse when you consider current marketing opportunities!

Afraid I have to side with Alan, Jay, on the Newcastle/Everton aspect of this. Another significant factor is that if you?re looking at things in terms of Merseyside and Tyneside (as distinct from the Liverpool/Newcastle City areas) ? which I think you have to ? is that you?ve got sizable competition from rugby league pretty much throughout your eastern periphery of Merseyside, whereas for Tyneside, the Newcastle Falcons rugby side notwithstanding, it?s pretty much all football.