The Mail Bag

The Share Option?

Comments (79)

It keeps popping up... and it keeps getting knocked down. The idea of sharing a stadium is not something that appeals to either set of fans but the recent cataclysmic changes in the financial world have possibly created a new environment for the "economically sensible" solution to both clubs' stadium problems. Keith Harris thinks it is worth exploring: "Why not? Technology today can turn a stadium from blue to red in the flick of a switch." ? but is this ever going to be a realistic proposition?

No matter how bad the financial situation gets, the bad blood between the fans would seem to be the insurmountable hurdle... We've had the debate a number of times before, I know, so perhaps this time we could focus on the element that has changed this time around ? the new financial situation that is fraught with huge uncertainties. Does it actually change things... or not?
Michael Kenrick, ToffeeWeb Towers     Posted 14/11/2008 at 05:21:24

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Simon Maughan
1   Posted 14/11/2008 at 06:33:14

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On so many levels, a groundshare has to be preferable to Kirkby but particularly in the current climate. I am all in favour.
Paul Maguire
2   Posted 14/11/2008 at 06:42:37

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Sonds great - as long as when the Shite run out they can see the sign "This is New Goodison" - well, it can’t be called anything else, can it? ;)
Jay Campbell
3   Posted 14/11/2008 at 07:11:48

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ANYTHING is better than Kirkby.
Dave Wilson
4   Posted 14/11/2008 at 06:50:03

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If Everton were to die and BK - or anyone else - created another club, say in Kirkby, I would be hearbroken and mourn the death of Everton. I would have no club.

The shite are getting desperate too; it's time to sit down and explore a groundshare. I never have liked the idea but I truely believe we could attract and sustain the support of the city?s youngsters, people visiting Liverpool would come to see our matches too, and who knows, they may even fall in love with us and keep coming back.

We have terrific supporters who live outside the city... but nowhere near enough of them. I dont really have an axe to grinde with LFC anyway. It's just me mates and family who support them that piss me off.

Nick Lees
5   Posted 14/11/2008 at 07:40:41

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Anything is better than the proposal to move to Kirkby.

I was never for a groundshare but unfortunately we have to be realistic in today's financial climate. Harris is right, modern technology can build a stadium and pitch to take games every week. My problem and grave doubt would be that, if a shared ground was agreed, how would we come up with our share? The RS want a ground estimated at £400m. If we have to pay a share of that I think we would have a big problem.

I really believe if DK is - God forbid - given the go ahead, we would shit ourselves when Tesco ask us for the £78 - 100m.

Money talks. New investors may really push a groundshare forward; Bill won?t.

Alan Willo
6   Posted 14/11/2008 at 07:44:22

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No, No, No. We don't need to share, we have Kirkby coming up so they can go bankrupt on their own. The clubs dont get on and we would only be the poor relation sitting in a half-empty stadium! We need 50k they need 65k so when EFC play the top tier would be closed and it would look stupid, and all you fickle and weak people would be moaning about your RS mates giving you stick!! Kirkby is the answer unless a new owner comes in with cash. If we get cash then we could re-build GP. Ifs and maybe again so DK it is. COYB
Stu Gore
7   Posted 14/11/2008 at 07:47:39

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Its always been a realistic proposition. Build a Wembley of the North. 85-90 thousand seats. Take major events away from those Mancs down the M62. We won?t fill it at the beginning but when you?re growing you don?t buy a jumper the size you are now, you buy one for the size you?ll be in the future... Given enough pies. The Stadium would be in the City. No birthright selling... and after that who really gives a fuck?
Michael Brien
8   Posted 14/11/2008 at 07:39:25

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Michael - An interesting point re the financial situation. Does it change the long term view of the matter? Or is it a period of financial uncertainty that will last a year or two years?

Personally I wouldn?t dismiss the ground sharing option too quickly. In an ideal world we would be able to redevelop Goodison and restore our wonderful stadium to it?s former glory ? and our neighbours would be able to restore our former home. However, we do not always live in an ideal world. The costs of new stadium have increased over the last 10 years or so. I think the cost of the Arsenal stadium doubled over the course of the development.

I know that to many, sharing would be "a bridge too far" so to speak. However, looking at Italy, several famous clubs share stadiums and it does not appear to have had affected the individual identity of these clubs e.g. Milan and Inter, Juventus and Torino, Lazio and Roma etc. It may be that independently both ourselves and Liverpool can build very good new stadiums ? but together develop a shared stadium that is one of the best in Europe.
As regards the rivalry, as an Evertonian for 44 years, I regard them over the Park as our biggest rivals ? but in terms of hatred, well I would rather not have a Celtic-Rangers type of rivalry with them. I have friends and indeed family members who are Reds ? I am sure many Evertonians do ? I don?t think hatred is part of the equation or should be.

Interestingly enough out of necessity (due to bomb damage and Highbury being used by the military) I gather there was a ground sharing of sorts for a limited period in the 1940s and 1950s. Man Utd used Maine Road for a few seasons after WW 2 and indeed played some early European Cup games there as OT didn?t yet have floodlights and Arsenal played at White Hart Lane for a short period after the war I think. Different eras I know ? but let?s not dismiss the idea without looking at it as a serious option.

Steven Kane
9   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:04:00

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Unless theres a few back handers going around I think the, so far reported, piss poor efforts of Knowsley and EFC will result in the shambles that is DK getting the boot. I have to agree with Nick Lees when he talks about our share of any development. When it actually comes down to hands in the pocket time, I reckon there?ll be loads of excuses but no cash. Kings Dock, Fortress Sports Fund etc all come to mind.
David Marsden
10   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:13:21

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I would love the groundshare. It would show exactly what a truely wonderful city Liverpool is. I of course hate the RS but for the sake of the people of Merseyside this would be fantastic. The % use would surely be up as the WHOLE of Merseyside could utlise it. My own personal hope is that a groundshare could keep the raising ticket fees down.
Kirk McArdle
11   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:17:22

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As rivalries go we are nowhere near as bad as Celtic v Rangers, Newcastle v Sunderland, Birmingham V Villa... sod it... When it come to rivalries could I be as bold to suggest the "friendly derby"? A groundshare is such a viable option both financially and logisticly. Keeps the ground in the City and instead of a poxy middle class stadium with 50,000 seats with no option to expand we could have a 75,000 with excellent facilities. LCC would have to get involved as both clubs would be here ot stay. Anyone seen the Bayern Munchen Allianz Arena? Keith Harris is right. At the flick of a switch the stadium lights turn red if Bayern are at home, blue if 1860 are at home and white if National team are playing. Search Wikipedia for Bayern to see in more detail.
Graham Clarkson
12   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:56:11

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I think that Mr Harris is completely right. It’s a shame for both sets of fans, but we all have realise that money is scarce and getting scarcer. A shared stadium is the only way forward on both commercial and environmental grounds.
Anthony Dyer
13   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:59:44

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It won?t happen as LFC and its supporters don?t want it regaradless of what we blues might want.

The best solution is for LCC to provide a site in Stanley Park at the Goodison end for Everton to build a new stadium.
Lee Smith
14   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:58:30

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I was suprised when I just checked the results of Augusts TW Poll that asked a similar question. The results were -

36% Redevelop GP
28% Other Liverpool Site
20% Kirkby
17% Groundshare

Am I right in assuming though that the reason the groundshare vote is so low, is because it would be a lot of people's ?2nd option? ?
Lee Smith
15   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:10:28

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Sorry, didnt really explain myself well there (see above). What I was getting at, was is it a case that those who voted Kirkby would revert to Groundshare if Kirby was not an option, as would the Redevelop GP voters if that was no longer an option?

It's just I can't see many Redevelop GP or Other Liverpool Site voters switching to voting for Kirkby over Groundshare if they were no longer viable.
John Burns
16   Posted 14/11/2008 at 08:52:04

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If the head ruled the heart then all parties would agree that a groundshare is the most viable option. In fact, if the head ruled the heart then a merged city football club would also be the most successful route forward.

But this is football, so neither of the above is going to happen. Supporters are steered by a primitive passion and an unbridled bias; economic logic is just not on our agenda.

A goundshare? it won’t happen.
Terence Leong
17   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:10:04

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Call it the Merseyside Stadium. Decorate it (together or separately) with the heroes and legacies of both clubs. Allow both clubs to display their histories without necessarily be-littling the other...

Of course, banter is part of such team sports, and being more competitive is essential. But think about it, our histories are so intertwined. As a region, two clubs separated only by Stanley Park, the history of the Merseyside clubs together takes some beating. Few can rival it.Together, we have 27 championships, numerous FA cups, shared two all Merseyside FA Cup finals etc. Which area can clam the same richness? Not the North London rivalry. Not the North East rivalry. Certainly not the Manchester rivalry.

It?s time to look beyond just the rivalry, but the collective heritage that these two giants of English football bring to the world. By the way, I?ve been an Everton fan for 24 years. Just in case some of you are wondering if I am some Reds fan in disguise.

Tony Waring
18   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:23:24

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Of course it’s the way forward even more so in the present financial climate. I saw the Bayern Munich stadium recently; it’s magnificent and as the man said the colour can be changed with the flick of a switch. Anyone who hates LFC fans is small minded. I can’t stand LFC but petty hatred never solved anything.
Stefan Tosev
19   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:17:52

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Let's face it, wherever we build a stadium it will be inferior to the "New Anfield", a shared stadium will solve a lot of issues and the most important we will not be bearing the financial burden alone, it will be shared between us, RS, LCC and maybe we can use some goverment funds as well.

It will be better than DK, it will increase our income and we will have a stadium on par with "Emirates" and "OT".
Colin Potter
20   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:21:18

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If the club really have £78m stashed away towards Kirkby, and that falls through (hopefully) use the money to start rebuilding Goodison, do what we can year on year, and let the RS rot in hell.
Ron Hill
21   Posted 14/11/2008 at 09:39:18

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The actual groundshare issue aside, I think it?s all smokescreen backtracking from Harris as he shouldn?t have done the club he?s trying to sell down. From being almost mute, which wouldn?t have been a problem if he?d actually been working behind the scenes to sell the club, he now won?t shut up!!!
Ciaran Duff
22   Posted 14/11/2008 at 10:21:41

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Sorry, I don’t get the economics of this! If the new stadium costs £350m and we want to go 50/50 then we’d have to stump up £175m. There are serious doubts that we can come up with £75m for DK and that was before the credit crisis. Where are we going to come up with an extra £100m?
Shaun Kinnair
23   Posted 14/11/2008 at 10:32:46

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In the current climate and in many situations to come, a ground share would be a better solution for our club. Economics would be a big factor and yearly outgoing costs would be halved, with the other half sharing the costs. This would make for great business and put stability/investment back into the club. Sometimes the head has to the rule the heart and emotions have to be put aside for the good of the club.
Monty Carlo
24   Posted 14/11/2008 at 10:55:23

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Heart = No
Head = Yes
Brett Hartley
25   Posted 14/11/2008 at 10:55:24

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Anythings better than Kirkby! I mean Harris is right, just look at Bayern Munich?s home-ground the Alliance Arena, the skin can change from red to white (Bayern-Germany) in a flick of a switch. Inter and AC milan share a ground right? Anyway, if anything a groundshare would enhance the rivalry between the two sides of Liverpool.
Alan Kirwin
26   Posted 14/11/2008 at 10:37:53

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Of course things have changed now. The financial dynamics are compelling and stark. There is no practical issue that could not be overcome, the only challenge seems to be one of bigotry from a vocal minority.

Look at the situation.

1. Both clubs NEED a new stadium.

2. In the blue corner, although Kirkby got the vote, it was hardly a ringing endorsement and most feel the stadium falls down on location and suitability etc.

3. Liverpool are miles away from being able to afford their stadium.

4. It’s getting harder & harder to compete at the top level.

5. The combined costs of building two stadiums is ridiculous & totally unsustainable.

6. The moral & practical argument for building two stadiums is almost non-existent.

7. A joint stadium would attract grants & investments way above either of the individual options.

8. The stadium would be so important to the region that it’s cost & ownership could be managed in such a way to reflect that and to remove an otherwise massive burden on both clubs.

9. As Keith Harris says, you can change the colour of a stadium at the flick of a switch. The identity issue is a red herring.

10. A single Merseyside stadium could be the finest club stadium in the UK and amongst the best in the world. We could be holding European finals & internationals at the ground, as well as mega concerts and other events.

The identity, pedigree and history of any club is distinct from its stadium. There would appear to be an opportunity here to put 2 + 2 together and get 6, i.e. one stadium that would surpass the expectations and ability of both clubs to afford. The vast surrounds of any single complex could easily accommodate the individual mementos of both clubs (Dixie statue, Shankly gates etc).

Ithink the argument is upside down. This should be the single obvious way forward for both clubs and for the city. The only argument being put forward against seems to be that the fans wouldn’t like it. The idea that blues & reds wouldn’t turn up in huge numbers at the finest stadium in Britain is fatuous.

This solution will provide a gigantic boost to both clubs and to the city. It will help the clubs to prosper financially and to compete where it matters and it will be a fitting monument to a great sporting city. If we miss this opportunity we are mad.

Then again, maybe Rick Parry still wants to go it alone...

Stuart Downey
27   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:03:25

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It would be interesting to see the view of the public at larg (Michael Kenrick - a vote would be interesting to see on the site). The money says yes, my head cant decide and I’d love something that kept us in the boundaries of Liverpool (if we shared with Liverpool the council would probably let us build wherever we wanted) I’d want to hear a lot more - architects views, general outlook etc. From whats being said, Liverpool are in a right mess, but we’d have to go in on an equal footing otherwise there is no point.
Robin Cannon
28   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:08:29

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Basically I want the best stadium we can get. What I don’t want to do is get stuck with something mediocre for the next fifty years or more, and DK always makes me feel that. Goodison will be an objectively "worse" stadium than DK in terms of capacity and facilities, but similarly would be more "special".

But if both clubs would genuinely examine a shared option and built something outstanding, then I’d be all for it. So long as it *is* a genuine share on equal terms.

My only worry is what’s been demonstrated by comments in this thread. Everyone has talked about "Bayern Munich’s stadium". Except they share it with 1860 Munich (even if financial concerns saw them purchase 1860’s ownership share). Would we be happy with everyone calling it "Liverpool’s stadium" in the same way?
Lee Smith
29   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:18:02

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Ahhhh, I finally get it! Kenwright has made such a monumental fuck up of Kirkby ON PURPOSE! All because his real secret plan was to make a shared stadium plan seem more appealing!
Dan Adams
30   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:29:15

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Robin, I wouldn?t compare Everton with 1860 Munich and Liverpool with Bayern. Bayern ruled Germany since time began and 1860 have always been shite. AC and Inter are much better comparison, with Inter not wining squat for a long long time until the last few years.
Lee Smith
31   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:31:25

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Ciaran, I think the main bonus of sharing a stadium with Liverpool is the fact that we probably WON?T have to find 50% of the cost as you say.

It would be highly likely that the LCC would contribute in some way, an also there would be a likelyhood of additional government grants.

As an example, if we were to use Liverpool?s projected costs of £350m for a stadium on Stanley Park, and that figure was split 3 ways (Everton FC, Liverpool FC, LCC/Government), then it would be a £115m contribution needed, which is ?only? an additional £40m than we alledgedly have available already for Kirkby.
James Inglis
32   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:30:21

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I agree with each and every point Alan Kirwin makes.
Lee Gray
33   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:46:36

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No.... End of chat!!! I?d rather pull my own teeth out than share with those pricks!
James McGlone
34   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:47:21

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I don?t know what to think of it. I?m guessing that there will be excellent public funding associated with it, so it could maybe cost just a bit more than kirkby.

But... my heart keeps saying no.

Also, if we have a 50/50 share with Liverpool ? we?ll be equals, and our revenues may possibly get a bit closer, and they?ll see that as a step down ? I cannot see their inflated opinion of themselves allowing it.
Lee Smith
35   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:52:51

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I think Alan Kirwin and Lee Gray have just demonstrated the two ends of the spectrum for us! At one end, Alan, who displays logic and sensible reasoning in his comments, at the other, Lee Gray, who displays... well.... not what Alan does!
Mike Tuft
36   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:58:38

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I would rather share a sleeping bag with Julian Clarey than share a stadium with that lot!!
Alan Rolfe
37   Posted 14/11/2008 at 11:28:14

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The financial world has changed and Everton (and LFC) have to realistically face the situation.

Alan Kirwin is correct on so many of his points I would add just one.

Any jointly used stadium would have to be a jointly designed stadium.

It would defeat the object if "our" home end faced their "New Kop" so that we got the equivalent of the Anfield Rd "away section" as our "home" bit and our visitors got the "New Kop". We should not consider having a single "home end" I will share a ground with the Reds but not a seat!! Despite the time and money situation a radical joint new design would be essential.

Many of the logistics of ground share can easily be overcome, you only need to look at the way all grounds are transformed into corporate identical grounds for European matches.

Money is available from the current SKY/Setanta agreements but does anyone really believe that they will keep throwing money at the Premier League? At some point, they too will start cost-cutting to make/increase profits. When that time comes we will have to make do with what is offered or face extinction.

Before I hear the howls of "What about new investment?", I will advise those people to watch "Dragon?s Den" ? a programme that defines investment: "I will only add money to something if I believe I will get a profit out of it". Investment means just that, not the commonly hoped for description "Billionaire donates money to club and wants nothing back".

If a ground share ensures financial survival it it an option that we must consider, but it must be faced on equal terms or not at all.
Rob Sawyer
38   Posted 14/11/2008 at 12:08:06

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Since the death of Kings Dock, this has seemed the most sensible way foward to me. We would be very close to Goodison and share the costs of construction and operation. Some people may profess to hating the reds but on matchday?s (except Derby Days) they would not be there!
Ger McNally
39   Posted 14/11/2008 at 12:02:09

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I?m coming around to the idea of a shared stadium but there is one major problem that I just can?t see a way around. Liverpool would need a 70k capacity whereas 50k would be more than enough for us.

A 70k stadium would leave us playing in front of 30,000 empty seats some weeks which wouldn?t do much for the atmosphere at our games but it is definitely something that should be thoroughly investigated by both clubs.
Anthony Lamb
40   Posted 14/11/2008 at 12:19:17

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It is a shame that it only seems to be the current "financial crisis" that has brought the issue of the ground share to the fore. In focusing towards the future rather than the past, it makes a great deal of sense. A "Merseyside Stadium" has much to recommend it when set against the ludicrous situation of 2 clubs in the one city playing the same game and yet needing two seperate venues to do so!

Of course one could design it in order to respect the historical traditions of both, and enabling it to reflect the partisanship on match days. It could also facilitate the need for increased capacity but with a note of realism required, as to what that capacity should be. After all, how often would Everton OR Liverpool require a capacity beyond 60,000?

BOTH teams would need to be very successful and economic circumstances in the area would need to change significantly in the future to even dream of 60,000+ each home game. After all, Everton are struggling to get anywhere near present capacity even for the biggest games in their season such is the dire standard of football currently on offer.

Whatever the arguments about the Kirkby fiasco, there is no doubt that, should it go ahead, Everton would be hosts in a stadium that in not too many years would be no more than a poor "time-conditioned" excuse for a prestigious stadium. Go for the joint stadium. Let the city itself be the hosts. Let them invite the two clubs to parade their wares each week and let the area be proud of a venue that is a real symbol of our ability to rise above narrow parochialism whilst retaining a healthy civilised rivalry.

Nick Wall
41   Posted 14/11/2008 at 12:50:26

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How about a TW poll ?
Gary Norman
42   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:00:31

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Sorry, can someone please explain to me why the fuck we need a 75,000 seater stadium?

Am I missing something here?
John Hughes
43   Posted 14/11/2008 at 12:56:05

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I was talking to a red mate of mine. Yes they do exist. Red?s can be friends. I hate him on derby day if we lose, he hates me if we win. I bet the vast majority of people on here have a similar mate. But to put this into persepective we were talking about the possibility of a groundshare.

Taking into consideration that neither club is rich, that both clubs need a new stadium and neither can afford one, we both said that we have our own club's best interest at heart and that in an ideal world we could maintain our individuality by building separate grounds. However, we digressed a little.

Again taking into consideration the global "credit crunch" and also what we had said about having our club's best interest at heart, we came to the conclusion that ? regardless of whether we like it or not, at this very moment in time, and with the best interest of the clubs at heart, the ideal situation would be to groundshare... halving the cost and doubling the potential for profit for both clubs.

In future, there may be an opportunity to build separately, if we can wait that long. Can we afford to wait though? I think it?s about time that Liverpool as a City, that Everton and Liverpool as ambassadors for the city show the world of football that a shared stadium and togetherness can be done. You can hate the kopites on derby day all you like. You can moan about a redshite sitting in your seat when it?s their "home" game. What the fuck do you care because you won?t be there watching, will you? Just like they won?t be there when we?re at home.

I?m not going to go into the asthetics of the stadium but I just wanted to say that we have the opportunity to progress, just as much as the RS have. We shouldn?t look at it as helping Liverpool as a consequence that happens. We should look at this as helping ourselves. If you want look at it from the RS point of view, as a consequence of sharing a stadium, they help us... so it?s a win-win situation.

As much as you hate the idea of them winning, in this case it might be the only way we can win to????

Paul McCann
44   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:08:11

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Alan Kirwin raises a lot of good points, but fails to mention that LFC currently have a season ticket waiting list of some 60k, while EFC?s average attandance over the last few season?s has hovered around 36k.

LFC will want [and need] to build a 60-70k seater stadium, EFC want to build a 50k seater stadium, with little historical precedent that it would be filled each week.

Personally, I don?t care what colour the seats are, as long as there are some blue bums on them.
Mike Gray
45   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:22:17

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Bollocks to the ground sharing!!!! We don’t want the shite, nor do we need the shite. What colour are the seats going to be for a start. There would be too much antagonism and petty moaning about the beginning.

I understand the ecomonic fragility at the present time. The credit crunch is hammering everybody.

But we are Everton Football Club, and we should be run as an independent body from top to bottom, and that includes a football stadium solely for EFC.

I don’t care about the shite. They are in so much debt it’s almost funny, no it is funny.

So let’s get behind a new ground for the Blues

COYB
Alan Kirwin
46   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:40:11

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Mike Gray:

Antagonism & petty moaning? Seems to sum up your post old boy.

Just to be clear, you support the idea of Everton always having its own stadium, whatever the implications, e.g. reduced revenue, reduced prestige, unacceptable location or, more likely than some think, bankruptcy/administration.

Why on earth should a club invest/borrow £100m or thereabouts to build an average stadium that is used on less than 25 days out of 365 each year? Just so we can say it’s ours?

And what’s this "we are Everton Football Club" nonsense? So what? We are the 4th most successful domestic team in England (historically) but haven’t won the league for 20 years and don’t look like doing so in the next 20. Our European pedigree is inferior to Dundee Utd’s. It’s bollocks like this & people who’s head is stuck in 1985 or 1970 that is part of our problem.

We NEED this more than Liverpool do. It could transform Everton’s finances, its attendances and its prestige & appeal outside of Merseyside. It’s a sad fact of life that many people are afraid of change, even if it offers the only way out of a bad situation.

A new way of thinking is required. We can’t change Liverpool’s waiting list (it derives from 40 years of domestic & European success and the exposure that goes with it). We can only try to exploit every opportunity to leverage Everton up into where we would all like to be. Contrary to what you and too many others think Mike, we have no right to sit at the top table these days. It has to be earned, or paid for.

I have supported this idea for 20 years. Despite minor antagonism between Kopites & Evertonians, the rivalry is uniquely friendly, or at least tolerable, and widely respected & commented upon by many outsiders. But that is frankly a side issue. Having 2 stadiums 400 yds apart is barely different in terms of logistics or risk of trouble.

It doesn’t matter that this new debate is down to the credit crunch. Better late than never. This idea has all the practical, logistical, financial and moral arguments behind it. IMHO only rank stupidity can stop it now.
Jay Harris
47   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:42:04

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Putting aside emotional issues, which I know is difficult because one of the reasons we go to the match is for the pull on the heartstrings (even with hoofball), a Merseyside stadium jointly funded with EFC, LFC, LCC, Grants and commercial partners would enable the creation of what we were promised, ie, a "Truly World Class Stadium" that would rank alongside the Cathedrals and other tourist attractions.

The split of the income from the commercial ventures would have to be agreed and that may be a stumbling block but it may be that LCC could fund it all and get their return from the commercial activities, giving both clubs a virtually free stadium but slightly lower income which may be better than £10 million a year in interest and future maintenance costs.
Paul Burns
48   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:10:20

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NO groundshare and NO Kirkby.
Alan Rooney
49   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:11:09

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Michael Kenrick - you are one of the worst perpetrators - "the bad blood between the fans would seem to be the insurmountable hurdle".

It’s been some 49 years since I was born in Liverpool to LFC supporting parents who have/had EFC brothers and sisters. I even had an LFC brother. I’m proud my son is EFC and we are both diehard fans, getting up to Goodison whenever we can. But if we can exist as a family for these many years, 90 minutes 30 odd times a year is nothing.
The bad blood pumps within these extremists who do not represent the majority. The ground share option is a no brainer.
Lee Smith
50   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:09:08

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How about we try and start some sort of Pro’s and Con’s list? I’ll start it off, based on the comparisons of ’Stanley Park’ to the Kirkby site...

PRO’s

World Class Stadium
Ideal, city location
On the doorstep of our birthplace
Viable
Deliverable
Maintainable
Increased Capacity
Reduced / shared monetary risk
Better infrastrure
Improved transport links
Possibility to incorporate / maintain our identity
Not in Knowsley

CONS

I may have to sit on a red seat once in a while


Any other suggestions?
Colin Borscht
51   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:14:32

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Yes, it makes sense financially in an ideal world.

We can each have our own end which we can personalise -- I am sure my red mates would want those fucking gates to tie scarves to following some sad demise.

Light panels can change it from blue to red at the flick of a switch or "purple"(?) for Derby matches.

What I want to know is on derby days am I gonna have to fight a red for my allocated season ticket seat ... too many issues to work out I fear.

Anyway - All acedemic since neither of us can come up with any money in the current climate (without a new investor) ? just wait until season ticket sales drop 30% next season and then watch it all go to shit (there?s a credit crunch don?t you know ...)

COYB
Ian O'Hanlon
52   Posted 14/11/2008 at 13:58:28

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Mike - do you mean too much petty moaning like "What colour will the seats be"... The seats could be white... phew, that?s sorted...!

The stadium should have two mainstands, in and under which are directors boxes, conference facilities, dresing rooms, treatment rooms etc. Therefore each club gets their own facilities. One tunel from the dressing rooms on each side/corner with a sign in each saying "This is Goodison/Anfield". Dugouts on both sides of the pitch, one set each. Your Home End of the pitch (i.e Gwladys St / Kop) is usually to the left of the dugouts, therefore (close eyes and visualise) having dugouts both sides would give one end each to be your own/home end.

For both clubs, separated by Stanley Park, to meet in the middle, a new shared battle ground is almost poetic.

I am astonised at the response to this as I thought the majority of Everton fans were against this idea.

It is also interesting that there are dozens of good reasons to ground share (too many to list - read above) but only one/two reasons not to... because you?d sooner pull you teeth out in a sleeping bag with Julian Clarey.

It is possible to fight with honour and integrity. Sharing a ground with LFC does not mean the rivalry and intensity of battle changes, but the fact we can fight, on the pitch, 11 men aside will show the world that it is football and winning that matters and not how old/new the wall paper is in the board room.

We should take the upper hand here and show the RS up, and get the proposal on the table.

COYB
ClydeMcPhat
53   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:16:46

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Dear Paul Burns.....Hope you like Championship football then...you’ll love the trip to Burnley.

Here’s the issue. Sky and Setanta especially Setanta are not going to prime the pump next time out. The debts of the Sky 4 are crushing, and may in fact be a heavier weight than we all know. Goodison cannot be redeveloped properly without acquiring more space and CLOSING the stadium (or parts thereof) for at least 2-3 years. Building costs are never what they say they are going to be at the beginning. We would never survive during a reconstruction. What happens if during the reconstruction a relagation battle broke out and we went down?

Around the world there are stadiums that serve a dual. We couldn’t we have the best stadium in England shared by 2 teams. It’s almost like why should Spurs build something new when Wembley is right there for them to rent?

In NYC, American Football teams the Giants and Jets have been sharing a stadium for 26 years. They are now in the process of building a new stadium which will open in 2 years time. It will be the finest stadium in the USA. While the level of animosity amongst the supporters is NOTHING like on Merseyside, they don’t like each other very much, but the debate about sharing is over. It works, and people forget and move on. The business of football is hard and cold. If we want to stay up, we have to think hard and cold.
Michael Kenrick
54   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:26:40

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Sorry to have upset you, Alan. I don’t like to read about the disgusting antics of the real perpetrators at Anfield and the "poisoned atmosphere" at derbies in recent years, but that is what others have posted. Majority or minority, it exists. Not sure you can ignore it with impunity.
Lee Smith
55   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:30:21

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Colin, why would you have to fight a Red on derby day? If it’s Everton’s home fixture you would have your seat, if it’s Liverpool home fixture, the Norweigan would have it, simple. You would just have to buy a ticket for the ’away end’ when it’s their turn.

I’m sure there would be problems to resolve along the way but I feel most if not all could be overcome with a bit of thinking.
Ian O'Hanlon
56   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:31:11

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Colin ? don?t give up because there may be too many issues to solve.

See post above for decorating your home end ? sorted!

Derby matches ? it's not hard. Can you use your season ticket to get a seat at Anfield for the away Derby? No. Therefore, when the fixture computer says Everton v Liverpool, we are at home and they are away. So the stadium will be Blue, our season tickets apply and they squeeze into the away support's end. When Liverpool v Everton, the reverse applies.

This is not rocket science...

Also (assuming stadium is in Stanley Park), if you approach from Anfield side you will see some wrought iron gates, if you approach from Goodison side you will see a magificent statue of Dixie. Simple

Any more insurmountable problems...?
Damien Kennedy
57   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:26:10

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I think both Alan and Lee make some very good points. I dont think any blue given the choice would opt for a shared ground with the RS, but we dont live in an ideal world. A groundshare with the idea of a purpose built Everton football village on the existing Goodison site and liverpool football village on the Anfield site, with bars, hotels, Club shop and museum on each site could be brilliant and put an even bigger focus on the City as a football centre for the Country. I just know the RS are too pig headed and too full of themselves to go for it.
Kevin Hudson
58   Posted 14/11/2008 at 15:05:09

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No No No No No No No . Either the clubs stay where they are, or they build separately. The credit crunch argument is sooooo full of holes. They are dangling this insidious shared-carrot in front of our eyes. It is bullshit. Please don?t get taken in by it folks, trust me.....
Nil Satis.....
Lewis Austin
59   Posted 14/11/2008 at 14:27:34

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Like a lot of people, my first choices would be either a new ground close to our existing one or to give Goodison a facelift. My second choice (although my heart says No) would be a ground share, I would choose this any day over Kirkby. My biggest concern though, would be people recognizing it as the shite's new ground and just somewhere Everton play every other week. If talks ever did get serious about a ground move, I would hope the Everton board would put this issue top of the list.

One thing that has surprised me lately though is the amount of kopites who seemed to have changed their minds on a ground share. Couldn't have anything to do with them trying to save a bit of face because of their ground cock-up could it? Ha ha...

Another thing about the money issues is, I don't think it would cost much more than moving to Kirkby ? it might even be less. There?s no way a £350mill bill would be split 50/50, people are forgetting about LCC contribution, European funding and local grants. Also it hurts me to say it but the shite would probably attract bigger sponsorships for naming rights which would mean more money towards the bill.
Graham Clarkson
60   Posted 14/11/2008 at 15:29:08

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Alan Kirwin talks sense.
Michael Hunt
61   Posted 14/11/2008 at 15:43:54

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The additional revenue of shared a shared stadium may well allow Everton to become more successful and a better side to watch. In turn, more fans come to watch us enabling us to genuinely compete again. All this while remaining in the location true to our roots, with heart and soul intact. Sounds OK to me, especially versus ?Destination Kirkby?!
Pete Clark
62   Posted 14/11/2008 at 15:23:36

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We are in such a perilous state with BK at the helm that the lies, lack of finances and Kirkby are sending us all crazy. Not just Everton but a host of other clubs could fall soon in the present climate and especially if a Super League is formed. We are out of options!

I think it would be great for the city to have a mega stadium that could be used for a lot of other big events that we would normally not be able to hold. The stadium itself would rid some of the bitterness that exists and the statues of former greats could be place alongside each other to help form a unity that existed pre-85.

LCC should take this on their shoulders and go for it as it seems strange anyway that joe public got asked to vote for a ground share when normally they would ignore us. There would be plenty of of organising problems but people paid to sort these things out. We live, work and socialise with the RS and should not allow the vile atmosphere that goes on elsewhere to exist between us. I personally, love Everton too much to let them or their results bother me.

Failing a ground share, we could move back into Anfield until we have the cash to move forward. You can all see in my writing and that of others that DK is scaring us all.

Chris Jones
63   Posted 14/11/2008 at 16:33:40

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I wonder if our editor would do one of the following....

1. Put up a TW poll asking whether, in principle, readers are "for" or "against" the notion of sharing a new stadium with LFC? or,

2. tell us why he won?t/can?t run such a poll?

How about it Michael?
David Kenrick
64   Posted 14/11/2008 at 17:30:22

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A shared Stadium in Stanley Park... it is the most sensible solution... practically and historically.. It means each club is on exactly the same footing and that we aren?t in a smaller stadium than the RS which would set us as the smaller club for the next 100+ years. Both clubs using the one stadium, then the People's Club will rise above all the rest, because in the end WE ARE the club of the people.
Andy Crooks
65   Posted 14/11/2008 at 17:25:27

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Is it really Kirkby or sharing a ground with Liverpool? As someone who doesn?t really understand these issues particularily well, could someone help me out by answering these questions:

How long does Goodison Park have left as a viable stadium?
Is the re-development of Goodison Park a viable option?
Quite often we don?t sell out Goodison Park, if we go to Kirkby where are the extra supporters going to come from?
Is there really a huge amount of money to be made from conferences etc?

I have been opposed to Kirkby for what are really sentimental reasons so I would appreciate someone who can provide hard facts.

Neil Pearse
66   Posted 14/11/2008 at 17:39:20

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I?m with Alan Kirwin. This is a complete no brainer.

One other point not emphasised: this would utterly transform our attractiveness to a potential new owner. Imagine buying into the club that plays in one of the world?s premier stadia ? and without having to build the Emirates all on your own.

Even if you hate the shite this is a great idea. It would make them less dominant in the city (they don?t have a better, bigger ground anymore).

Complete no brainer, and after a few years we will wonder what all the ?bad blood? fuss was ever about.
Mick Wrende
67   Posted 14/11/2008 at 18:30:14

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We are going to have enough trouble hanging on to our fans with the crap football we are playing without then insulting them by suggesting a shared stadium. Generations of my family would be turning in their graves at the thought of it. And please don't anyone suggest I go and support a different club.
Dave Cochrane
68   Posted 14/11/2008 at 17:40:29

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If a truly world class stadium would be built for the two teams to share, I may be in favour of it, but I have this nagging doubt that it probably wouldn't be. I hate to sound negative, but as a Blue who has become very disillusioned with the mis-management of our club, and what sometimes feels like a smothering, I just don't have the trust in them to be able to negotiate a good deal for EFC with the bigger guns at LFC.

Would they play a bit part in it all? Yes, I feel... having less than a third of the possible required costs, if even that? It would never be a 50/50 deal.

So while there is still more than a crumb of hope that the Kirkby idea will fail after the inquiry, I will hang onto the thought that Goodison can and will be redeveloped or as someone above said, re build across the road on Stanley Park. It will be buggered as a public park anyway if and when LFC build. So, why not two stadiums? If what the builders for DK say, Goodison as a site for a modern stadium would never be considered now, then maybe the EFC board need to get a bit more broad thinking, pro-active and aggressive with LCC and put a plan forward (like they should have done 10 years ago).

The world financial markets are in decline right now but, sure as night leads into day, they will eventually come up again and maybe both clubs need to consider this and cool off until then. Goodison, despite what some stupid people say, is not going to collapse for a while yet. We've put up with it for this long, a few more years really wont make much difference and later on, if the current board still need them, then.

Tesco could buy Goodison (a horrific thought I know), build their damned supermarket there and regenerate (?) Kirkdale in the process, if it meant the club stayed where it belongs, I for one could just about stomach it.

A massive NO to DK, it's just so wrong !

Karl Masters
69   Posted 14/11/2008 at 19:12:37

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I posted on here back in the Spring that this was the only sensible answer for all concerned.

Since then, the financial climate has worsened to such an extent that it really should be the ONLY option apart from doing little or nothing.

Those worrying about a design need not worry. There was a fantastic scheme, drawings, pictures and all, posted on here at the start of the year that was joint collaboration between an Evertonian and a Red. Maybe Michael could put it up for viewing?
Archibald Haddock
70   Posted 14/11/2008 at 19:28:01

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I would have absolutely no problem at all with a shared stadium, as long as it was equally owned.

Having two brand new stadiums in the same city would be an abhorrent waste of money and resources, regardless of the recession.

I think that views to the contrary are rather childish.
Michael Evans
71   Posted 14/11/2008 at 19:59:29

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Yes I agree that "views to the contrary are rather childish". Like so many others I will shed many tears when/ IF we leave Goodison. However, a shared ground ticks all the boxes IMO. A move to DK will just be a backward/downward step for our great club.
Karl Masters
72   Posted 14/11/2008 at 20:16:29

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Judging by what we are reading here I think it is fair to sum up that the clear majority view is:

?We?d all love to stay at a redeveloped Goodison, but if that?s not viable, then a shared stadium is much more preferable than Destination Kirkby.?

Are you listening BK from your Ivory Tower at the People?s Club (sic) ?
Ed Fitzgerald
73   Posted 14/11/2008 at 21:45:18

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It is a good idea for both clubs, and the City. It would be an opportunity to acquire a iconic world class football stadium that would benefit the fans of both clubs. Some people's responses are incredible, don't you work with reds, get the bus with reds, have mates who are reds??

Grow up FFS.
Derek Thomas
74   Posted 15/11/2008 at 04:08:43

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There is no telling yet just how far this recession will go or for how long. That said if it does rival the 30?s one then the mistakes from then will, hopefully, not be repeated.

Spend your way out of a recession was the hindsight call, aka massive national and local investment in infrastructure.

This could be a Stanley Park version of Project Jennifer or l?pool1. The 2 grounds can be incorporated into the expanded park, with suitable monuments as a nod to past history(s)

Dual TV areas can be provided which would show the ? home? side of the ground (complete with Lietch-esque cross hatching facade, fuck the cheesey local smalltime adverts, how much do they bring in in the grand scheme of things??)

All things are possible given the ? political will ? (on all 4 sides, Blue, red, local and national )

As for the so called problems, most of the fixes can be built in, do it right do it once, buy cheap (DK) BUY TWICE.

HE WHO DARES RODDERS, HE WHO DARES.
Gary Kelly
75   Posted 15/11/2008 at 14:14:04

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I would rather go to Kirkby than groundshare with the Shite.

We will always be regarded as the tenants of the New Anfield.
Neil Styles
76   Posted 17/11/2008 at 14:41:54

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Ideally a modern stadium exclusive to Everton Football Club would be the answer but considering both ourselves and our lovely neighbors are struggling under economic strain, a shared arena seems entirely logical and, dare I say, welcome.

Further, and this is something I cannot believe more Evertonians in high bureaucratic positions have not voiced disapproval to, Stanley Park divides Goodison and their place, why do Liverpool FC feel a divine ownership to a park that is as much ours as it is theirs?!

For Merseyside?s senior club to be forced out beyond the city limits whilst the 20th century upstarts are rewarded with such a historical site to play is morally unfair.

Kevin Fowkes
77   Posted 17/11/2008 at 16:15:16

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It can work... just look at how brilliantly the Germans do it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Allianzarenacombo.jpg
Steve Mink
78   Posted 17/11/2008 at 20:47:13

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I vote for Mr Kirwin’s party.

Neil Quinn
79   Posted 18/11/2008 at 13:28:12

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Makes financial sense but although the head says Yes the heart says No.

One embarrasing problem will be seeing them fill it every home game while we’re sitting in a half-empty stadium for our games.

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