The Mail Bag
The Share Option?
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It keeps popping up... and it keeps getting knocked down. The idea of sharing a stadium is not something that appeals to either set of fans but the recent cataclysmic changes in the financial world have possibly created a new environment for the "economically sensible" solution to both clubs' stadium problems. Keith Harris thinks it is worth exploring: "Why not? Technology today can turn a stadium from blue to red in the flick of a switch." ? but is this ever going to be a realistic proposition?
No matter how bad the financial situation gets, the bad blood between the fans would seem to be the insurmountable hurdle... We've had the debate a number of times before, I know, so perhaps this time we could focus on the element that has changed this time around ? the new financial situation that is fraught with huge uncertainties. Does it actually change things... or not?
Michael Kenrick, Posted 14/11/2008 at 05:21:24
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The shite are getting desperate too; it's time to sit down and explore a groundshare. I never have liked the idea but I truely believe we could attract and sustain the support of the city?s youngsters, people visiting Liverpool would come to see our matches too, and who knows, they may even fall in love with us and keep coming back.
We have terrific supporters who live outside the city... but nowhere near enough of them. I dont really have an axe to grinde with LFC anyway. It's just me mates and family who support them that piss me off.
I was never for a groundshare but unfortunately we have to be realistic in today's financial climate. Harris is right, modern technology can build a stadium and pitch to take games every week. My problem and grave doubt would be that, if a shared ground was agreed, how would we come up with our share? The RS want a ground estimated at £400m. If we have to pay a share of that I think we would have a big problem.
I really believe if DK is - God forbid - given the go ahead, we would shit ourselves when Tesco ask us for the £78 - 100m.
Money talks. New investors may really push a groundshare forward; Bill won?t.
Personally I wouldn?t dismiss the ground sharing option too quickly. In an ideal world we would be able to redevelop Goodison and restore our wonderful stadium to it?s former glory ? and our neighbours would be able to restore our former home. However, we do not always live in an ideal world. The costs of new stadium have increased over the last 10 years or so. I think the cost of the Arsenal stadium doubled over the course of the development.
I know that to many, sharing would be "a bridge too far" so to speak. However, looking at Italy, several famous clubs share stadiums and it does not appear to have had affected the individual identity of these clubs e.g. Milan and Inter, Juventus and Torino, Lazio and Roma etc. It may be that independently both ourselves and Liverpool can build very good new stadiums ? but together develop a shared stadium that is one of the best in Europe.
As regards the rivalry, as an Evertonian for 44 years, I regard them over the Park as our biggest rivals ? but in terms of hatred, well I would rather not have a Celtic-Rangers type of rivalry with them. I have friends and indeed family members who are Reds ? I am sure many Evertonians do ? I don?t think hatred is part of the equation or should be.
Interestingly enough out of necessity (due to bomb damage and Highbury being used by the military) I gather there was a ground sharing of sorts for a limited period in the 1940s and 1950s. Man Utd used Maine Road for a few seasons after WW 2 and indeed played some early European Cup games there as OT didn?t yet have floodlights and Arsenal played at White Hart Lane for a short period after the war I think. Different eras I know ? but let?s not dismiss the idea without looking at it as a serious option.
The best solution is for LCC to provide a site in Stanley Park at the Goodison end for Everton to build a new stadium.
36% Redevelop GP
28% Other Liverpool Site
20% Kirkby
17% Groundshare
Am I right in assuming though that the reason the groundshare vote is so low, is because it would be a lot of people's ?2nd option? ?
It's just I can't see many Redevelop GP or Other Liverpool Site voters switching to voting for Kirkby over Groundshare if they were no longer viable.
But this is football, so neither of the above is going to happen. Supporters are steered by a primitive passion and an unbridled bias; economic logic is just not on our agenda.
A goundshare? it won’t happen.
Of course, banter is part of such team sports, and being more competitive is essential. But think about it, our histories are so intertwined. As a region, two clubs separated only by Stanley Park, the history of the Merseyside clubs together takes some beating. Few can rival it.Together, we have 27 championships, numerous FA cups, shared two all Merseyside FA Cup finals etc. Which area can clam the same richness? Not the North London rivalry. Not the North East rivalry. Certainly not the Manchester rivalry.
It?s time to look beyond just the rivalry, but the collective heritage that these two giants of English football bring to the world. By the way, I?ve been an Everton fan for 24 years. Just in case some of you are wondering if I am some Reds fan in disguise.
It will be better than DK, it will increase our income and we will have a stadium on par with "Emirates" and "OT".
Head = Yes
Look at the situation.
1. Both clubs NEED a new stadium.
2. In the blue corner, although Kirkby got the vote, it was hardly a ringing endorsement and most feel the stadium falls down on location and suitability etc.
3. Liverpool are miles away from being able to afford their stadium.
4. It’s getting harder & harder to compete at the top level.
5. The combined costs of building two stadiums is ridiculous & totally unsustainable.
6. The moral & practical argument for building two stadiums is almost non-existent.
7. A joint stadium would attract grants & investments way above either of the individual options.
8. The stadium would be so important to the region that it’s cost & ownership could be managed in such a way to reflect that and to remove an otherwise massive burden on both clubs.
9. As Keith Harris says, you can change the colour of a stadium at the flick of a switch. The identity issue is a red herring.
10. A single Merseyside stadium could be the finest club stadium in the UK and amongst the best in the world. We could be holding European finals & internationals at the ground, as well as mega concerts and other events.
The identity, pedigree and history of any club is distinct from its stadium. There would appear to be an opportunity here to put 2 + 2 together and get 6, i.e. one stadium that would surpass the expectations and ability of both clubs to afford. The vast surrounds of any single complex could easily accommodate the individual mementos of both clubs (Dixie statue, Shankly gates etc).
Ithink the argument is upside down. This should be the single obvious way forward for both clubs and for the city. The only argument being put forward against seems to be that the fans wouldn’t like it. The idea that blues & reds wouldn’t turn up in huge numbers at the finest stadium in Britain is fatuous.
This solution will provide a gigantic boost to both clubs and to the city. It will help the clubs to prosper financially and to compete where it matters and it will be a fitting monument to a great sporting city. If we miss this opportunity we are mad.
Then again, maybe Rick Parry still wants to go it alone...
But if both clubs would genuinely examine a shared option and built something outstanding, then I’d be all for it. So long as it *is* a genuine share on equal terms.
My only worry is what’s been demonstrated by comments in this thread. Everyone has talked about "Bayern Munich’s stadium". Except they share it with 1860 Munich (even if financial concerns saw them purchase 1860’s ownership share). Would we be happy with everyone calling it "Liverpool’s stadium" in the same way?
It would be highly likely that the LCC would contribute in some way, an also there would be a likelyhood of additional government grants.
As an example, if we were to use Liverpool?s projected costs of £350m for a stadium on Stanley Park, and that figure was split 3 ways (Everton FC, Liverpool FC, LCC/Government), then it would be a £115m contribution needed, which is ?only? an additional £40m than we alledgedly have available already for Kirkby.
But... my heart keeps saying no.
Also, if we have a 50/50 share with Liverpool ? we?ll be equals, and our revenues may possibly get a bit closer, and they?ll see that as a step down ? I cannot see their inflated opinion of themselves allowing it.
Alan Kirwin is correct on so many of his points I would add just one.
Any jointly used stadium would have to be a jointly designed stadium.
It would defeat the object if "our" home end faced their "New Kop" so that we got the equivalent of the Anfield Rd "away section" as our "home" bit and our visitors got the "New Kop". We should not consider having a single "home end" I will share a ground with the Reds but not a seat!! Despite the time and money situation a radical joint new design would be essential.
Many of the logistics of ground share can easily be overcome, you only need to look at the way all grounds are transformed into corporate identical grounds for European matches.
Money is available from the current SKY/Setanta agreements but does anyone really believe that they will keep throwing money at the Premier League? At some point, they too will start cost-cutting to make/increase profits. When that time comes we will have to make do with what is offered or face extinction.
Before I hear the howls of "What about new investment?", I will advise those people to watch "Dragon?s Den" ? a programme that defines investment: "I will only add money to something if I believe I will get a profit out of it". Investment means just that, not the commonly hoped for description "Billionaire donates money to club and wants nothing back".
If a ground share ensures financial survival it it an option that we must consider, but it must be faced on equal terms or not at all.
A 70k stadium would leave us playing in front of 30,000 empty seats some weeks which wouldn?t do much for the atmosphere at our games but it is definitely something that should be thoroughly investigated by both clubs.
Of course one could design it in order to respect the historical traditions of both, and enabling it to reflect the partisanship on match days. It could also facilitate the need for increased capacity but with a note of realism required, as to what that capacity should be. After all, how often would Everton OR Liverpool require a capacity beyond 60,000?
BOTH teams would need to be very successful and economic circumstances in the area would need to change significantly in the future to even dream of 60,000+ each home game. After all, Everton are struggling to get anywhere near present capacity even for the biggest games in their season such is the dire standard of football currently on offer.
Whatever the arguments about the Kirkby fiasco, there is no doubt that, should it go ahead, Everton would be hosts in a stadium that in not too many years would be no more than a poor "time-conditioned" excuse for a prestigious stadium. Go for the joint stadium. Let the city itself be the hosts. Let them invite the two clubs to parade their wares each week and let the area be proud of a venue that is a real symbol of our ability to rise above narrow parochialism whilst retaining a healthy civilised rivalry.
Am I missing something here?
Taking into consideration that neither club is rich, that both clubs need a new stadium and neither can afford one, we both said that we have our own club's best interest at heart and that in an ideal world we could maintain our individuality by building separate grounds. However, we digressed a little.
Again taking into consideration the global "credit crunch" and also what we had said about having our club's best interest at heart, we came to the conclusion that ? regardless of whether we like it or not, at this very moment in time, and with the best interest of the clubs at heart, the ideal situation would be to groundshare... halving the cost and doubling the potential for profit for both clubs.
In future, there may be an opportunity to build separately, if we can wait that long. Can we afford to wait though? I think it?s about time that Liverpool as a City, that Everton and Liverpool as ambassadors for the city show the world of football that a shared stadium and togetherness can be done. You can hate the kopites on derby day all you like. You can moan about a redshite sitting in your seat when it?s their "home" game. What the fuck do you care because you won?t be there watching, will you? Just like they won?t be there when we?re at home.
I?m not going to go into the asthetics of the stadium but I just wanted to say that we have the opportunity to progress, just as much as the RS have. We shouldn?t look at it as helping Liverpool as a consequence that happens. We should look at this as helping ourselves. If you want look at it from the RS point of view, as a consequence of sharing a stadium, they help us... so it?s a win-win situation.
As much as you hate the idea of them winning, in this case it might be the only way we can win to????
LFC will want [and need] to build a 60-70k seater stadium, EFC want to build a 50k seater stadium, with little historical precedent that it would be filled each week.
Personally, I don?t care what colour the seats are, as long as there are some blue bums on them.
I understand the ecomonic fragility at the present time. The credit crunch is hammering everybody.
But we are Everton Football Club, and we should be run as an independent body from top to bottom, and that includes a football stadium solely for EFC.
I don’t care about the shite. They are in so much debt it’s almost funny, no it is funny.
So let’s get behind a new ground for the Blues
COYB
Antagonism & petty moaning? Seems to sum up your post old boy.
Just to be clear, you support the idea of Everton always having its own stadium, whatever the implications, e.g. reduced revenue, reduced prestige, unacceptable location or, more likely than some think, bankruptcy/administration.
Why on earth should a club invest/borrow £100m or thereabouts to build an average stadium that is used on less than 25 days out of 365 each year? Just so we can say it’s ours?
And what’s this "we are Everton Football Club" nonsense? So what? We are the 4th most successful domestic team in England (historically) but haven’t won the league for 20 years and don’t look like doing so in the next 20. Our European pedigree is inferior to Dundee Utd’s. It’s bollocks like this & people who’s head is stuck in 1985 or 1970 that is part of our problem.
We NEED this more than Liverpool do. It could transform Everton’s finances, its attendances and its prestige & appeal outside of Merseyside. It’s a sad fact of life that many people are afraid of change, even if it offers the only way out of a bad situation.
A new way of thinking is required. We can’t change Liverpool’s waiting list (it derives from 40 years of domestic & European success and the exposure that goes with it). We can only try to exploit every opportunity to leverage Everton up into where we would all like to be. Contrary to what you and too many others think Mike, we have no right to sit at the top table these days. It has to be earned, or paid for.
I have supported this idea for 20 years. Despite minor antagonism between Kopites & Evertonians, the rivalry is uniquely friendly, or at least tolerable, and widely respected & commented upon by many outsiders. But that is frankly a side issue. Having 2 stadiums 400 yds apart is barely different in terms of logistics or risk of trouble.
It doesn’t matter that this new debate is down to the credit crunch. Better late than never. This idea has all the practical, logistical, financial and moral arguments behind it. IMHO only rank stupidity can stop it now.
The split of the income from the commercial ventures would have to be agreed and that may be a stumbling block but it may be that LCC could fund it all and get their return from the commercial activities, giving both clubs a virtually free stadium but slightly lower income which may be better than £10 million a year in interest and future maintenance costs.
It’s been some 49 years since I was born in Liverpool to LFC supporting parents who have/had EFC brothers and sisters. I even had an LFC brother. I’m proud my son is EFC and we are both diehard fans, getting up to Goodison whenever we can. But if we can exist as a family for these many years, 90 minutes 30 odd times a year is nothing.
The bad blood pumps within these extremists who do not represent the majority. The ground share option is a no brainer.
PRO’s
World Class Stadium
Ideal, city location
On the doorstep of our birthplace
Viable
Deliverable
Maintainable
Increased Capacity
Reduced / shared monetary risk
Better infrastrure
Improved transport links
Possibility to incorporate / maintain our identity
Not in Knowsley
CONS
I may have to sit on a red seat once in a while
Any other suggestions?
We can each have our own end which we can personalise -- I am sure my red mates would want those fucking gates to tie scarves to following some sad demise.
Light panels can change it from blue to red at the flick of a switch or "purple"(?) for Derby matches.
What I want to know is on derby days am I gonna have to fight a red for my allocated season ticket seat ... too many issues to work out I fear.
Anyway - All acedemic since neither of us can come up with any money in the current climate (without a new investor) ? just wait until season ticket sales drop 30% next season and then watch it all go to shit (there?s a credit crunch don?t you know ...)
COYB
The stadium should have two mainstands, in and under which are directors boxes, conference facilities, dresing rooms, treatment rooms etc. Therefore each club gets their own facilities. One tunel from the dressing rooms on each side/corner with a sign in each saying "This is Goodison/Anfield". Dugouts on both sides of the pitch, one set each. Your Home End of the pitch (i.e Gwladys St / Kop) is usually to the left of the dugouts, therefore (close eyes and visualise) having dugouts both sides would give one end each to be your own/home end.
For both clubs, separated by Stanley Park, to meet in the middle, a new shared battle ground is almost poetic.
I am astonised at the response to this as I thought the majority of Everton fans were against this idea.
It is also interesting that there are dozens of good reasons to ground share (too many to list - read above) but only one/two reasons not to... because you?d sooner pull you teeth out in a sleeping bag with Julian Clarey.
It is possible to fight with honour and integrity. Sharing a ground with LFC does not mean the rivalry and intensity of battle changes, but the fact we can fight, on the pitch, 11 men aside will show the world that it is football and winning that matters and not how old/new the wall paper is in the board room.
We should take the upper hand here and show the RS up, and get the proposal on the table.
COYB
Here’s the issue. Sky and Setanta especially Setanta are not going to prime the pump next time out. The debts of the Sky 4 are crushing, and may in fact be a heavier weight than we all know. Goodison cannot be redeveloped properly without acquiring more space and CLOSING the stadium (or parts thereof) for at least 2-3 years. Building costs are never what they say they are going to be at the beginning. We would never survive during a reconstruction. What happens if during the reconstruction a relagation battle broke out and we went down?
Around the world there are stadiums that serve a dual. We couldn’t we have the best stadium in England shared by 2 teams. It’s almost like why should Spurs build something new when Wembley is right there for them to rent?
In NYC, American Football teams the Giants and Jets have been sharing a stadium for 26 years. They are now in the process of building a new stadium which will open in 2 years time. It will be the finest stadium in the USA. While the level of animosity amongst the supporters is NOTHING like on Merseyside, they don’t like each other very much, but the debate about sharing is over. It works, and people forget and move on. The business of football is hard and cold. If we want to stay up, we have to think hard and cold.
I’m sure there would be problems to resolve along the way but I feel most if not all could be overcome with a bit of thinking.
See post above for decorating your home end ? sorted!
Derby matches ? it's not hard. Can you use your season ticket to get a seat at Anfield for the away Derby? No. Therefore, when the fixture computer says Everton v Liverpool, we are at home and they are away. So the stadium will be Blue, our season tickets apply and they squeeze into the away support's end. When Liverpool v Everton, the reverse applies.
This is not rocket science...
Also (assuming stadium is in Stanley Park), if you approach from Anfield side you will see some wrought iron gates, if you approach from Goodison side you will see a magificent statue of Dixie. Simple
Any more insurmountable problems...?
Nil Satis.....
One thing that has surprised me lately though is the amount of kopites who seemed to have changed their minds on a ground share. Couldn't have anything to do with them trying to save a bit of face because of their ground cock-up could it? Ha ha...
Another thing about the money issues is, I don't think it would cost much more than moving to Kirkby ? it might even be less. There?s no way a £350mill bill would be split 50/50, people are forgetting about LCC contribution, European funding and local grants. Also it hurts me to say it but the shite would probably attract bigger sponsorships for naming rights which would mean more money towards the bill.
I think it would be great for the city to have a mega stadium that could be used for a lot of other big events that we would normally not be able to hold. The stadium itself would rid some of the bitterness that exists and the statues of former greats could be place alongside each other to help form a unity that existed pre-85.
LCC should take this on their shoulders and go for it as it seems strange anyway that joe public got asked to vote for a ground share when normally they would ignore us. There would be plenty of of organising problems but people paid to sort these things out. We live, work and socialise with the RS and should not allow the vile atmosphere that goes on elsewhere to exist between us. I personally, love Everton too much to let them or their results bother me.
Failing a ground share, we could move back into Anfield until we have the cash to move forward. You can all see in my writing and that of others that DK is scaring us all.
1. Put up a TW poll asking whether, in principle, readers are "for" or "against" the notion of sharing a new stadium with LFC? or,
2. tell us why he won?t/can?t run such a poll?
How about it Michael?
How long does Goodison Park have left as a viable stadium?
Is the re-development of Goodison Park a viable option?
Quite often we don?t sell out Goodison Park, if we go to Kirkby where are the extra supporters going to come from?
Is there really a huge amount of money to be made from conferences etc?
I have been opposed to Kirkby for what are really sentimental reasons so I would appreciate someone who can provide hard facts.
One other point not emphasised: this would utterly transform our attractiveness to a potential new owner. Imagine buying into the club that plays in one of the world?s premier stadia ? and without having to build the Emirates all on your own.
Even if you hate the shite this is a great idea. It would make them less dominant in the city (they don?t have a better, bigger ground anymore).
Complete no brainer, and after a few years we will wonder what all the ?bad blood? fuss was ever about.
Would they play a bit part in it all? Yes, I feel... having less than a third of the possible required costs, if even that? It would never be a 50/50 deal.
So while there is still more than a crumb of hope that the Kirkby idea will fail after the inquiry, I will hang onto the thought that Goodison can and will be redeveloped or as someone above said, re build across the road on Stanley Park. It will be buggered as a public park anyway if and when LFC build. So, why not two stadiums? If what the builders for DK say, Goodison as a site for a modern stadium would never be considered now, then maybe the EFC board need to get a bit more broad thinking, pro-active and aggressive with LCC and put a plan forward (like they should have done 10 years ago).
The world financial markets are in decline right now but, sure as night leads into day, they will eventually come up again and maybe both clubs need to consider this and cool off until then. Goodison, despite what some stupid people say, is not going to collapse for a while yet. We've put up with it for this long, a few more years really wont make much difference and later on, if the current board still need them, then.
Tesco could buy Goodison (a horrific thought I know), build their damned supermarket there and regenerate (?) Kirkdale in the process, if it meant the club stayed where it belongs, I for one could just about stomach it.
A massive NO to DK, it's just so wrong !
Since then, the financial climate has worsened to such an extent that it really should be the ONLY option apart from doing little or nothing.
Those worrying about a design need not worry. There was a fantastic scheme, drawings, pictures and all, posted on here at the start of the year that was joint collaboration between an Evertonian and a Red. Maybe Michael could put it up for viewing?
Having two brand new stadiums in the same city would be an abhorrent waste of money and resources, regardless of the recession.
I think that views to the contrary are rather childish.
?We?d all love to stay at a redeveloped Goodison, but if that?s not viable, then a shared stadium is much more preferable than Destination Kirkby.?
Are you listening BK from your Ivory Tower at the People?s Club (sic) ?
Grow up FFS.
Spend your way out of a recession was the hindsight call, aka massive national and local investment in infrastructure.
This could be a Stanley Park version of Project Jennifer or l?pool1. The 2 grounds can be incorporated into the expanded park, with suitable monuments as a nod to past history(s)
Dual TV areas can be provided which would show the ? home? side of the ground (complete with Lietch-esque cross hatching facade, fuck the cheesey local smalltime adverts, how much do they bring in in the grand scheme of things??)
All things are possible given the ? political will ? (on all 4 sides, Blue, red, local and national )
As for the so called problems, most of the fixes can be built in, do it right do it once, buy cheap (DK) BUY TWICE.
HE WHO DARES RODDERS, HE WHO DARES.
We will always be regarded as the tenants of the New Anfield.
Further, and this is something I cannot believe more Evertonians in high bureaucratic positions have not voiced disapproval to, Stanley Park divides Goodison and their place, why do Liverpool FC feel a divine ownership to a park that is as much ours as it is theirs?!
For Merseyside?s senior club to be forced out beyond the city limits whilst the 20th century upstarts are rewarded with such a historical site to play is morally unfair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Allianzarenacombo.jpg
One embarrasing problem will be seeing them fill it every home game while we’re sitting in a half-empty stadium for our games.


1 Posted 14/11/2008 at 06:33:14
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