The Mail Bag
Should we gloat or should we worry?
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Listening to Geoff Snelling on Sky today he made a throw away comment about 'maybe Liverpool will have a fire sale at Christmas?'. He was referring to comments about their financial position and the massive debt they had. Obviously big nose doubted it would be needed but tellingly said that, at worst, it would only affect the fringe players.
What both men know, but can't disclose publicly, is that Liverpool are in serious deep financial trouble. The following is not pub gossip, or from the postman who knows somebody's cat, but from secure reliable, in-the-know, financial sources.
The LFC debt is increasing beyond their control; they are in a worse position now with an interest increase of £40M alone on the loan made by the yanks. This is without any inroads into the £100M+ debt that still stands separate from the yanks' loan. Add to that the secure info that the banks will not extend the yanks' credit and that they must find a 3rd party to take on their debt.
People are desperately trying to keep the information out of the public domain for fear of a second Leeds United and a 'run' on the club. If they don't qualify for the next phase of the CL, then it will all come out and the proverbial will hit the fan.
So... should we gloat or not? The heart says yes but the head's not too sure. If Liverpool go pear-shaped then we will probably be tarred with the same brush in terms of 'the financial position in Liverpool', and where will that leave us in our desperate need for a new stadium? (Please don't suggest staying at GP; it's completely unrealistic and unacceptable to many, myself included).
Equally, as the shared stadium continues to raise its head, if it happened, would they agree to a 50/50 split? I personally doubt it and whilst they might be financially up the creek, in their position the argument will be that they are the greater attraction in terms of investment. They have the greater track record and the higher profile and ? as much as it pains me to admit it ? it's true.
All this leads to problems of raising finance ourselves when a club of their stature is in such deep trouble. So... should we gloat? Well, whisper it quietly but I'm secretly ecstatic!!!
Jim Hourigan, Posted 15/11/2008 at 15:40:19
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I couldn’t care less what happens to the Red Yankees, but the most concerning part is that the media are almost certainly underplaying the predicament that LFC find themselves in.
If it was ourselves or Villa the TV and Newspapers would be falling over themselves to ensure the problem was hyped up and added to rather than keeping mum.
Given the extraordinary amount of ref’s decisions awarded to LFC this season it does make you wonder! However, a flagship club like them is never going to be allowed to go under, because the effects would be felt far and wide throughout the world of football.
If it was ourselves or Villa the TV and Newspapers would be falling over themselves to ensure the problem was hyped up and added to rather than keeping mum.
Given the extraordinary amount of ref’s decisions awarded to LFC this season it does make you wonder! However, a flagship club like them is never going to be allowed to go under, because the effects would be felt far and wide throughout the world of football.
"Another Leeds Utd." we couldn?t be that lucky!
You always hope their luck will run out one day, but it hasn?t yet and I doubt it will now. No doubt Arabians are mounting white chargers as we speak; worst that will happen is they get Anfield for a knockdown price.
You always hope their luck will run out one day, but it hasn?t yet and I doubt it will now. No doubt Arabians are mounting white chargers as we speak; worst that will happen is they get Anfield for a knockdown price.
Everton have £90 -120m in debt (depending on whom you believe). Now thats a lot, but compare with £350m for Lpool (excluding Stanley Park) or £750 for ManU. Agrreed these clubs have huge revenue cycles, but still we are much better off than them.
Also IMHO at some point in time we need to start to believe Keith Harris and the other lady-banker that BK is looking to sell. He is looking for investment, and till we get it, this is the only way to be competitive. It's a fan?s paradox, we as fans want to be challenging for the top, but without more investment, we need to load on debt to buy the players to do so. It begs the question, when do we criticise BK?
When we load-up more debt to buy better players, or when we sit as is and try to keep our position without investing in players. As fans we can't have both (at least until EFC gets a serious investor in).
Also IMHO at some point in time we need to start to believe Keith Harris and the other lady-banker that BK is looking to sell. He is looking for investment, and till we get it, this is the only way to be competitive. It's a fan?s paradox, we as fans want to be challenging for the top, but without more investment, we need to load on debt to buy the players to do so. It begs the question, when do we criticise BK?
When we load-up more debt to buy better players, or when we sit as is and try to keep our position without investing in players. As fans we can't have both (at least until EFC gets a serious investor in).
If Liverpool are in dire financial straights then does this not increase the chance that the yanks will sell to DIC and we know what will happen then.
Do not underestimate their ability to come up smelling of roses no matter how bad the situation may seem.
Do not underestimate their ability to come up smelling of roses no matter how bad the situation may seem.
Who gives a shit about LFC?
Nick, you?re right, but in all honesty I?d fucking love it if they went under!
But we all know Uefa would pay the debt and still give them a bye to the Champions League!
But we all know Uefa would pay the debt and still give them a bye to the Champions League!
I think it was Platini who said that some clubs were buying players that they couldn’t afford, and gaining in the process. He didn’t name names, of course, but our beloved neighbours seem to be the prime example.
They can con referees, but when banks are under pressure themselves they call their loans in. How many points are a club fined for going bankrupt? Could be a happy new year.
They can con referees, but when banks are under pressure themselves they call their loans in. How many points are a club fined for going bankrupt? Could be a happy new year.
I couldn?t give a shit about LFC. If we soon were hearing about AFC Liverpool that in my opinion would be great news!
Look at decision that Gerrard got in the Champions League! A liitle help from their friends?
In reality they will not be allowed to go under, however what a Christmas present if they did!
What were they singing, there is only one team in Liverpool? Quite possibly and they play in blue!
Oh we can dream!!!!!!
Look at decision that Gerrard got in the Champions League! A liitle help from their friends?
In reality they will not be allowed to go under, however what a Christmas present if they did!
What were they singing, there is only one team in Liverpool? Quite possibly and they play in blue!
Oh we can dream!!!!!!
I REALLY hope the source is reliable!
It would be near-impossible for a club with as much brand value as Liverpool to go under, but I don’t doubt that rockier times at least lie ahead for our beloved neighbours. The depressing fact is that even their rejects seem to sell for a premium so the club could raise £30m without even denting the first team. And if one of their creditors were to truly get pushy, they could always raise an unbelievable sum by selling Gerrard or Torres to some Spanish team with more cash than sense.
Totally agree with you Jimmy.
The banks will never pull the plug on a Prem club. Just think of how many kopites are customers for a start.
The only way any club will go under is if they fall out of the Prem and are still badly run financially.
I think we have more to worry about than them so let's just concentrate on 3 points tomorrow and stop dreaming of a perfect world without the RS.
The banks will never pull the plug on a Prem club. Just think of how many kopites are customers for a start.
The only way any club will go under is if they fall out of the Prem and are still badly run financially.
I think we have more to worry about than them so let's just concentrate on 3 points tomorrow and stop dreaming of a perfect world without the RS.
To how many people would it be ’unacceptable’ to stay at Goodison Park? If I were to have guessed before I read your letter, I would have said ’none’. Where do you get your information from? Every Evertonian I know would rather stay at Goodison. We have been told it’s not feasible, and many of us (not me) believe it. That’s the only reason why any Evertonian would contemplate leaving our home and city.
Leeds went to the wall when the economy was booming. If the same where to happen to Liverpool now, we would be right behind them. No team in the Premier League is in a position to gloat. The whole obscene house of cards could come crashing down and no-one ? certainly not the government ? is going to save it.
I have not posted for a while so here goes.......
I as a fan of 30 odd years think we should get our own house in order..........
I as a fan of 30 odd years think we should get our own house in order..........
Just a couple of months ago the Yanks would have been looking to find $600 million to pay off their debt at interest rates of 4%. Now they?ll be looking to find only $444 million at 1.5%, and likely a lot less by the time January comes around. It looks a lot more manageable to them now than before and there?s always the Arabs to call on who are cash rich at the moment and not subject to any credit crunches.
I would rather the shites get relegated and go bankrupt then us winning the league. That's how much I hate them. After that, we can then start winning the league and turn the city blue.
Seriously. I doubt they will ever be in financial trouble. DICheads or someone else will save them. They get lucky all the time. "They will never walk alone". They have the devil for companion.
Seriously. I doubt they will ever be in financial trouble. DICheads or someone else will save them. They get lucky all the time. "They will never walk alone". They have the devil for companion.
So Liverpool are in serious financial trouble.
This is a club with a huge profile (for whatever reason and whether we like it or not) and you would think they would be safe... But they?re not.
I think this is a sign that the Premier League bubble is about to burst. The Premier League business model is so similar to that of the financial industry it is startling.
Huge risks taken. Massive borrowing against dubious assests. Individuals earning disgusting sums and believing they were untouchable. The media ignoring the obvious and acting more as an apologist for the excess (after all they are passengers on the same gravy train).
So what will the fall out be? Clubs having to lay off staff from their huge squads, players salaries reducing (after all this is a global crisis), players staying longer at clubs and the transfer windows getting less frenetic and the whole bloody circus losing some of its sparkle.
Personally I don?t buy the notion of sugar daddies... these are business people who do an initial splash of cash but I doubt will do what happened at Chelsea.
Yeah, I?ll have a chuckle at Liverpool having a few problems but I?ll laugh more if the Premier League gravy train comes off the rails.
If it does I will have the same sympathy I had when I saw news clips of unemployed City traders.
This is a club with a huge profile (for whatever reason and whether we like it or not) and you would think they would be safe... But they?re not.
I think this is a sign that the Premier League bubble is about to burst. The Premier League business model is so similar to that of the financial industry it is startling.
Huge risks taken. Massive borrowing against dubious assests. Individuals earning disgusting sums and believing they were untouchable. The media ignoring the obvious and acting more as an apologist for the excess (after all they are passengers on the same gravy train).
So what will the fall out be? Clubs having to lay off staff from their huge squads, players salaries reducing (after all this is a global crisis), players staying longer at clubs and the transfer windows getting less frenetic and the whole bloody circus losing some of its sparkle.
Personally I don?t buy the notion of sugar daddies... these are business people who do an initial splash of cash but I doubt will do what happened at Chelsea.
Yeah, I?ll have a chuckle at Liverpool having a few problems but I?ll laugh more if the Premier League gravy train comes off the rails.
If it does I will have the same sympathy I had when I saw news clips of unemployed City traders.
How can there be a run on Liverpool? Nobody would love to see the arse fall out of that club more than me but their shares aren’t traded on any listed exchanges.
They are really in deep shit, but unfortunately for us there can’t be a run on the club as there aren’t enough shares held in the public domain.
It would be like all your Christmases coming at once seeing them going tits up.
They are really in deep shit, but unfortunately for us there can’t be a run on the club as there aren’t enough shares held in the public domain.
It would be like all your Christmases coming at once seeing them going tits up.
Last Night in a dream I glimpsed the future...
JANUARY 1st - An Ashen-faced club spokesperson announces that Liverpool FC have declared bankruptcy and will cease to function as a football club.
JANUARY 2nd - A jubilant spokesperson announces the formation of a new soccer franchise, FC Liverpool, who will play their home games at Anfield.
JANUARY 3rd - The Premier League announce that is in "the best interests of all 91 clubs in the Football League" if the new club are allowed resume the former club’s place in the top flight. But with automatic relegation at the end of the season and a 40-point penalty for next season.
JANUARY 4th - The automatic relegation is quoshed on appeal
JANUARY 5th - The 40-point reduction is reduced to 0 points on appeal
January 19th - FC Liverpool beat Everton 2-0 in a typically fierey Merseyside derby which sees three Everton players sent off and another seven booked.
JANUARY 1st - An Ashen-faced club spokesperson announces that Liverpool FC have declared bankruptcy and will cease to function as a football club.
JANUARY 2nd - A jubilant spokesperson announces the formation of a new soccer franchise, FC Liverpool, who will play their home games at Anfield.
JANUARY 3rd - The Premier League announce that is in "the best interests of all 91 clubs in the Football League" if the new club are allowed resume the former club’s place in the top flight. But with automatic relegation at the end of the season and a 40-point penalty for next season.
JANUARY 4th - The automatic relegation is quoshed on appeal
JANUARY 5th - The 40-point reduction is reduced to 0 points on appeal
January 19th - FC Liverpool beat Everton 2-0 in a typically fierey Merseyside derby which sees three Everton players sent off and another seven booked.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up about Liverpool going bust.
When the yanks go the Arabs will pick up the pieces.
Liverpool ain’t a football club, they’re a national institution. I wouldn’t be too surprised if Gordon Brown nationalises them in the next budget.
When the yanks go the Arabs will pick up the pieces.
Liverpool ain’t a football club, they’re a national institution. I wouldn’t be too surprised if Gordon Brown nationalises them in the next budget.
Kevin and Jimmy above -- joking aside, you are probably not too far off the mark! I have maintained for some time now that any movement of the goalposts (sorry for the pun) will coincide with the RS going bust, administration etc. You can bet any amount that it would "not be in the Premier League’s best interest" to lose a club of their "stature".
Watch and learn......
Watch and learn......
If the credit crunch does hit LFC it may result in LFC selling some of their massive squad of players. If Tores or Gerrard go it will be to Man City, with £200 million to spend. They will overtake us and that means we will ultimately lose out. LFC will carry on regardless and we will suffer. That is life. If any shit happens it will be at our loss.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. If, or maybe when, football’s finances go tits up, no club will be immune. It’s just a question of degree.
But here’s one for ya. For all that I dislike the bastards, I wouldn’t want to see them go under. Or United, or Chelsea. A massive reality check - yes. A season in the championship? Why not? A levelling of the playing field? Definitely.
But screwed beyond repair? No.
Their rivalries and traditions (well not so much Chelsea’s) are as much a part of the fabric of the game in this country as ours are. Fact.
Do you really want them to go under? Wouldn’t you much rather that they stay around and we become good enough to beat them both on a regular basis?
Cos that’s how to become the best. Not wishing they weren’t around because maybe we’ve given up hope as well as expectation, however understandable that may seem at the moment?
But here’s one for ya. For all that I dislike the bastards, I wouldn’t want to see them go under. Or United, or Chelsea. A massive reality check - yes. A season in the championship? Why not? A levelling of the playing field? Definitely.
But screwed beyond repair? No.
Their rivalries and traditions (well not so much Chelsea’s) are as much a part of the fabric of the game in this country as ours are. Fact.
Do you really want them to go under? Wouldn’t you much rather that they stay around and we become good enough to beat them both on a regular basis?
Cos that’s how to become the best. Not wishing they weren’t around because maybe we’ve given up hope as well as expectation, however understandable that may seem at the moment?
@ Jay Harris
"The banks will never pull the plug on a Prem club. Just think of how many kopites are customers for a start."
Their debt is shared between Wachovia (an American bank) and RBS...
I?m sure the American bank doesn?t give a toss about Premier League supporters.... Wachovia are actually in quite a bit of trouble themselves at the moment. If they have to call in the debt, they will....
"The banks will never pull the plug on a Prem club. Just think of how many kopites are customers for a start."
Their debt is shared between Wachovia (an American bank) and RBS...
I?m sure the American bank doesn?t give a toss about Premier League supporters.... Wachovia are actually in quite a bit of trouble themselves at the moment. If they have to call in the debt, they will....
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The credit problems only seem relevant if you are applying for new credit. Since Everton have apparently done that at least a couple of times a year on average since the £27M Bear Stearns season-ticket mortgage, and now have ? what ? 12 signifiant individual "mortgage" type loans outstanding, totaling £60M...
If EFC can afford to meet their current interest and service fees with their regular income, we should be okay. But I suspect it is only a matter of time before Bill and the Boys need another massive injection of cash to keep the "upside-down" edifice afloat... then the shit will really hit the fan, so I would say gloating might be entirely appropriate.