Just reading the footy on the BBC website about Juve's planned new stadium. All very interesting, but what caught my eye was what the fans thought of the stadium they built in the 1990's: "Fans labelled the ground "soulless", blaming its location, on the outskirts of the city" and "attendances often failed to reach the 30,000 mark in a stadium built to hold more than twice that number" Sound familiar? 10 years on and it looks like Ten years on and Everton are about to make the same mistake.

The Juventus saga isn?t quite like ours as they?ve played all over the place in Turin over the years. They are currently playing at the ground they were at prior to going to the Delle Alpi in 1990 and it was the Delle Alpi that was so unpopular with their fans. They?ve only been in the Stadio Olympico temporarily and are now going back to a refurbished Delle Alpi.

Everton are trying very hard to make a different mistake entirely.

I like how you cut that quote off when citing why fans called it soulless. I?ll finish it for you "and poor visibility of the pitch from some parts of the ground." Hmm, now what ground does that sound like..... Ah yes, Goodison Park.

This is great evidence to show why Kirkby is a non-starter.

It’s interesting that one of the world’s biggest clubs are happy with a 40,000 seater stadium. Personally I’d be happy with a 45 to 50,000 seat Goodison. I don’t believe it’s not achievable on the current site and for less than the £78m quoted for Kirkby.

Just wanted to point out that as Steve said, they are actually moving back to a refurbished Delle Alpi, still on the outskirts of town, but with much better seating for the fans. Obviously they feel the more important thing is the fans being able to clearly see the action, and I agree. So they aren’t moving to a new stadium, they’re moving back to the one that fans called soulless but making it better. And I just have to say it again, if traveling an extra 4 miles is just too much then you really are a very lazy individual. I drive 40 miles to work each day, an extra 4 miles to go watch a football match is hardly a marathon trek.

I really do think that some people are taking the whole new stadium completely out of context. It makes no difference if we stay, or if we move. Location is largely irrelevant.

If we play good football on the pitch, they will come, regardless.

If we don't play good football, we won't fill Goodison, or the Tesco stadium. A crowd of only 30,000 in a 40,000 or 50,000 stadium is the same difference.

The best way to make any stadium a success, and for EFC to prosper either way, is to do it where it matters ? on the grass.

To those who are drawing comparisons between Kirkby and Stadio Delle Alpi for their out of town location. Please note, that the celebratory air around the new Stadio Delle Alpi is present not withstanding the fact it is built on the same out of town site.

In other words, Juve seem not to believe the out of town factor is that important.

Followed Everton for 50 years, my Dad is 89 and still goes, my son 15 and my brother, season ticket holders all of us sitting together.

My Dad, my son, brothers etc all born in Liverpool, so the phrase that will hurt most of all when we leave the city is: Liverpool, one city, two cathedrals and one football team ? think about it... hearing that on the radio or seeing it on hoardings around the city.

Everton Football Club was born in this city, there would be no Liverpool FC without Everton's birth, I don't want Everton to also die in this city, but be sure if we move away and leave this place then that will be the only outcome.

It does not matter if it is 4 miles or 4 hundred miles, this is a Liverpool based football team followed in majority by Liverpool people, who have grown up with its history. Take it away and the next generation of supporters will also be taken away. I talk to lifelong Evertonians NOW who say they will not go to Kirkby, successful team or not.

Larry
I too have a similar history.
I have followed them since 1959 and my father who is now 82 and his father before him. I am too wrapped up in EFC to say I will never set foot in Kirkby (not that I think it?s going to happen anyway) but I agree that it will be the ruination of EFC if it does happen.

A Championship standard stadium with a Championship team ? that is Destination Kirkby.

David Barks, I have a season ticket in the Park End and the views are as good as any stadium in the world.

If we put another tier on the Park ned it will increase capacity by 8,000 and will only cost around £15 million.

Contrary to the scaremongering, GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.

Yes it has some restricted views but that could be taken care of and with our current attendances those seats are probably not used anyway.

Out of town stadia were tried all over the US in the 50s/70s, the home of auto-culture. They are now reversing this trend due to the success of the new generation of downtown stadia. Juve?s fans major gripe was that this is a municipal stadium built with a running track and consequently massive viewing distances. The support is also fragmented by splitting into 3 tiers all the way around with large screens behind the goals. Many fans would favour a refurb of their more central former home.

That said, Juve?s support is more nationwide rather than local so perhaps peripheral sites are less worrying for them. The point about 4 or 5 miles distances is rather mute when referring to just one person having to make that journey as opposed to 40,000+ down only a fraction of the traffic lanes, and public transport services that serve GP. Incidentally I travel over 1,000 miles to work, although I?m not sure of it?s relevance ;)

Downtown is where it is happening, be it Liverpool, New York or any other cosmopolitan city in the world. Downtown brings with it bright lights, money, vibe and atmosphere, when you head downtown why is it exactly that you do this? Because yes that?s where it is usually happening both culturally and commercially.

Fast forward to Destination Kirkby, a planning nightmare spawned from an ill-advised concept of 1960s ?new-town? ideology. Take a drive around Kirkby and you will see a town that has failed in terms of industry, employment, housing and retail opportunity. To mend these broken dreams the planner?s at Knowsley Council set to work on offering cheap and viable land to the house-building industry, what Kirkby now has is a parallel world of affordable private property and the housing estates that sprung up during the 1950s and 60s.

Fact, do Tesco have competition in this area from any of their competitors? This is the sole reason why they wish to exploit this untapped market of potential customers. Everton belongs in the city of Liverpool, just as the identity of the liver-bird. Moving is quite frankly a retrograde step and has become synonomous with the ill-conceived stewardship of one Bill Kenwright.

Jeremy

You are wrong; there will be many (I don't know the precise number but I would estimate we are talking 1,000s) of Blues who will not go to Kirkby under any circumstances.

It is the most divisive, poorly thought out, financially damaging football stadia development to have ever been mooted. Jeremy, we are chasing mythical new fans that don?t exist. How will going to Kirkby makes us anymore attractive to new fans than the RS, Man U, Spurs, Arsenal, City, Villa? Kenwright is selling the soul of the club on the cheap. There will be one club who are going to get a massive long term advantage ? Liverpool FC, thanks to Blue Bill. He makes me sick.

The BBC article is very interesting, but if you actually read it (as opposed to selectively quoting it as another stick to beat Kirkby with) the major issue repeatedly cited is NOT the location of the stadium. The Stadio delle Alpi is... er... on the outskirts of town too!!

For what it’s worth - although, hey, why bother with the facts? - the major issue seems to be the quality of the stadium. But then the major problem there seems to be about "poor visibility". Oh well....

And best for you all to ignore the bit about building in a new "commercial centre" into the newly rebuilt Juventus stadium... That would hardly suit your argument to just rebuild GP. Erm, sounds a bit more like Kirkby.....

So.... stadium on the outskirts of town with better visibility for the spectators and a combined commercial centre...

The 4-mile move may not seem a lot but it takes us 8.2 miles from the city centre. I posted the distances of Premier League stadiums from their city centres under Christine Fosters latest article. All the current grounds are within 3.35 miles of the city centre apart from Bolton at 6.1 miles. Bolton with their pathetic support and empty seats at games verses Liverpool and Blackburn... A club that could attract 50,000 to their old ground in the centre of town. A support forced into the car due to limited out-of-town transport links, a support that has been forced into a model of watching football that has made them use their cars and then realise that they might as well drive on to Man City, or any other bigger Northwest club. Bolton and Everton: Small out of town Clubs in the year 2020.

Neil Pearse.

The Juventus fans also complain of having their Home End split into 3 tiers with a TV screen plonked in the middle of it.

Doesn?t sound too different to DK where our Home End will be split in two with some executive boxes plonked in the middle.

Bad location, bland design, big risk of an irreversible mistake..

Even if every single current matchgoer went to the games in Kirkby, there will still be about TWENTY THOUSAND empty spaces.

Think about it, think how bad 4-5 thousand empty seats look, then imagine 20-25,000 empty seats ?
Then take it a step further, what if the thousands who say they won't go . . . don't actually go, a half-empty stadium would be considered a bonus.

Why on earth are some people hell bent on turning us into the next Bolton? We all know the claim of attracting new fans from the mythical new catchment area is total nonsense.

End this suicide now!

Last time I looked, Kirkby wasn?t ?on the outskirts of town?, it was one all of its own! Or has the Earth shifted overnight?

In comparison with downtown ?where its all happening? as quoted above, GP is actually on the outskirts of town.

Therefore, to move further away is pure folly and suicide.

David Barks, do you still live in the US and isn?t this pointless as you no longer actually go to games?

Neil Pearse, as you have stated look at the whole article but then again the "whole" Kirkby debate failing to add insufficient means to actually get to and from the stadium surely the whole point of having a stadium is for people to attend and use it? The major flaw of Kirkby is it?s outstanding lack of transport provision, building a sixty- or seventy-thousand seater stadium without the infrastructure to get people to and from it and it?s a pointless exercise but that would be to include a very valid point in the whole pro and con context wouldn?t it?

Neil Pearse

Leaving aside the qualities or otherwise of the new stadium, two things make it totally unaccpetable to me and tens of thousands like me are:

One ? it is outside our city and we will be leaving the City to the redshite;

Two ? no fucker will be able to get there because it is totaly inaccessible unless you are prepared to walk three miles each way with no pubs on the way.

Sure-fire way of enticing the extra 15,000 people needed to fill the stadium on a wet winters night, eh?

Think it out, guys ? it will be the ruination of our club.

Tell you what, guys, go to a pub in Kirkby tomorrow and tell the locals in there that they?re not scousers.

If your definition of "out of town" is applied to London then Arsenal are out of town. So are Spurs.

Let's face facts here, Walton isn?t "in town" it?s a shithole over-spill from Liverpool. Albeit a slightly older one than Kirkby. And as for the transport arguement, the potential site is between 2 dual-carriageways and a motorway.

It seems to me that a lot of the debate against this is just people shoe-horning points to fit in with the fact that they don?t like their routine disturbed.

"Downtown is where it is happening, be it Liverpool, New York or any other cosmopolitan city in the world. Downtown brings with it bright lights, money, vibe and atmosphere; when you head downtown why is it exactly that you do this? Because yes that?s where it is usually happening, both culturally and commercially."

Yes, to rebuild Goodison really does tick those boxes doesn't it? The mixture of pound shops, greasy spoon?s and bookies really makes it special.

The ruination of the club only happens if supporters don?t bother to turn up. I?m sick and tired of supporters saying they won?t go to Kirkby. If you don?t go out of choice you cease to be a supporter of the club, it?s as simple as that. Therefore it?ll leave you free to go and support a team within the arbitrary city boundaries...

But guess what, Goodison or Mere Fields as it was, was outside those confines and guess what, the city grew as it will surely grow again or some planner will move the arbitrary boundary by the half a mile or so and, hey presto, the new stadium is in the city again.... As has been said before... do you support a club or its stadium?

Out of town stadia have been tried and found wanting.
I read a quote early on in the DK debate by David someone, anyway a big wheel in stadium building lark,who, when asked at his numerous speaking and consulting engagements, where is the best place for a new stadium ALWAYS says...AS NEAR TO THE CENTRE OF TOWN AS YOU CAN GET IT.

The sooner this debacle in waiting gets fucked off, the better ? then we can get on with the real job of getting it right first time, instead of buying cheap and not even being able to buy twice to compensate.

THERE IS NO RUSH... Goodison, no matter what they try and tell you, is not going to fall down tomorrow, or the next day.

ONE PIECE AT A TIME, staring with the Park End.

David Barks, you harp on about the obstructed views, well this season there have been plenty of good seats on offer without needing one of the bad seats, feel free to try one.

As for the four miles, what about the thousands who get the game via Kirkdale station, what will their option be for Kirkby?

And what about people who drive, where will they park? What about people who are working or running late, they will say balls to any park-and-ride and watch it in the pub.

It is simple, Kirkby will make regular match goers turn into part timers... and don't even get me started on the corporate issue, have you been this season and cringed at the empty spaces in these parts of Goodison? So why do we need so many in Kirkby?

And where will the club replace these missing fans from? Because it won't just be hundreds who won't go every home game. And, if the football on offer is shit, only christ knows what attendances we will be looking at.

People are just fed up with the liars running the club. I cannot wait to see the response to next years early bird offer, they take the piss out off us and they are in for a big shock this April.

Tommy Gibbons
I know you are relatively pro-Kirkby and I think you make a valid point about DK not being successful if many Blues simply shun it and say that?s enough. Your point about the original ground is misleading although I agree you are technically correct about the location of Mere Green. However, the key difference at the time was that football was still in its embryonic stage and many working men they would not be able to attend due to work or lack of finances. Attendances were still relatively low so it was not a big trauma. 116 years later we are about to take a more risky move by going to Kirkby.

Tommy, people stop going to the match for many reasons now and always have done. What do you do... berate them? Say that they are not ?real? Evertonians anymore? I suspect you don?t, I know I don?t because it would be arrogant and churlish to do so. I think the club are hoping that refusniks like me will simply accept DK grudgingly and trudge along to DK. I genuinely think you are wrong and that it won?t be missing hundreds but missing thousands perhaps 10,000 people.

Yes, that?s speculation but I suspect a malaise amongst Evertonians has already begun with people fed up with the Premier League, fed up with the sterile football we play, but most of all fed up with the way the club is being run. Attendances are down, season ticket sales are down and it would be fair to say that an atmosphere of discontent prevails. If we lose long standing season ticket holders who is going to replace them?

I don?t need to prove my Evertonian credentials to you or anyone else, following the blues has cost me relationships, jobs, and of course a whole sack load of money. I don?t regret any of it but if we go to DK that will be it for me.

If are you are concerned that DK will fail if the people like me jib it then why are you advocating it? Surely the rational thing to do given the current financial climate is to hunker down and actually begin an open and honest dialogue with the fans of the club over developing a long term strategy over the future direction of the EFC.

There is no rush to leave a stadium that is one of the most criticised in the Premier League (poor facilities, poor sightlines), which has poor facilities for corporate entertainment, poor potential for further business expansion and the lowest number of new fans attending the game in the Prem.

Elstone pointed out how much further behind our finances have fallen in the last few years ? this is the real world of competing at football and we are getting less and less competitive every year, no matter how many times we finish in the top 7.

Moving to an out of town (read city) location is against every modern planning practice. Are we living in the ?80s / 90s? No... have we not learnt anything? Out of town = out of business.

If you really think people will be attracted by a shed next to the motorway then please may I direct you to www.bwfc.co.uk

Everton ? it?s in your soul (unless you move to a souless tin-clad shed).

What I think is a real shame is that people are going to stop going to the game if we move. Granted, I can see the argument about leaving the city boundry, even though it is only by a single mile or so, but this is our club, we should support it through thick and thin. Sounds to me like the people who are going to boycott the club should we move are the same people who haven't been showing up at Goodison this season because we have been crap at home this season?!?!

So what?s the difference between moving the mile or so to Kirkby and the old mile or so to Birkenhead? None? Location, location, location

If they can produce a tv show on that premise then surely they can build a stadium on the same premise.

Many of us against DK will continue to go. My worry is that 8.2 miles from the centre of town is nearly 3 times further than Liverpool, Villa, City, United, and all other big city clubs (the London clubs don?t associate with London as much as with their borough, eg, When Arsenal win a trophy, their open-top bus goes on a tour of Islington, not the city or West end).

This move is unprecedented. Do we believe that the club have researched the effect of the relocation properly? The poor Public Transport links have been discussed already, but what about the impact on fan base in the long term? I would love the opportunity to ask Mr Elstone some questions regarding this issue. It would be great if he was able to dispel my concerns but I am sure he could not.

Anthony Fielding

I?m in my 50?s, I Still meet with the same group of people before the game as I did in my late teens, going to Everton games is what we do, home and away, we?ve grown in numbers these days with sons, daughters and even a couple of grand kids now part of the extended family.

These people and their kind ARE Everton, without them there would be no club, none of them have stopped going. They intend to go for the rest of their lives, a couple of bad seasons, or shite football won't change that. Only the total betrayal of moving this great club away from this great city can change that.

Although a couple would give Kirkby a chance, the rest will feel the club they have supported all their lives would be dead. No cheap impostor in Kirkby can ever replace it

Please stop talking nonsense about the people who won't be in Kirkby being people who don't go now.

The fans wont be boycotting the club mate, it?ll be the other way round.

Anthony,
I am a season ticket holder, and haven?t missed a home game for years and even go away 5 or 6 times a season. Let's be honest, when we go to the new ground, prices will rise as Everton fully expect us to pay more in a ?world class stadium?, so it?ll be more money to get into a stadium which is a souless box with no atmosphere, which will be harder to get to, to watch shit hoofball... and you do not expect attendances to drop? I for one will not be making the effort. Call me a judas or unloyal if you want, but I bet I won?t be the only one. I just wonder where the replacements for us regulars will come from. Can Kirkby support a Premier League team on its own?

Chris/Dave
I'm a season ticket holder, it's a 140-mile round trip for me to get to the games, parking is a nightmare, paying £6 for a car park a mile away.

I don't want to move to Kirkby, the stadium design is poor, it's out of Liverpool city centre etc, but I think it's the only real chance we have, I dont think the club are lying about that.

One thing I think everyone can agree on is that Goodison is a dump, to put it politely, and there hasn't been any atmosphere there this season apart from the Man Utd game. I will continue to go to the games no matter what because I support the club with all my heart. I think everyone is now coming to the conclusion that it isn't a great move for us, but I think people should open their eyes and realise its the only option, apart from staying in the decaying Goodison Park.

Jay Harris - "I have a season ticket in the Park End and the views are as good as any stadium in the world. If we put another tier on the Park ned it will increase capacity by 8,000 and will only cost around £15 million."

Jay, I have agreed with a lot of what you have said about DK in the past, but that statement above is IMHO narrow-minded. So you get a great view from the Park End, whooptie fuckin doo! What about all the other areas of the ground where the view is shit! Let's all sit in the Park End shall we? Does it hold 30,000?

Add another tier on the Park End? It?s not all about capacity, if you haven?t got that by now you never will. GP may not be about to fall down but it needs huge amounts of work all over. Sticking another tier on may get more bodies into the ground, but it won?t change the fact that the views are shit and the facilities are worse. The Bullens needs ripping down for a start, have you sat there recently? Letter box view to start with because of the gantry, then pillars as well, not to mention the fact that the whole thing looks like my granddad?s shed. I?m surprised there aren?t gardening tools hanging from nails on the back wall.

Clearly DK is not the world class stadium that people want and if it does ever happen we may well regret it, but Jay?s simplistic solution to developing GP is ridiculous. It?s going to take more than another tier on the Park End and a lick of paint to get GP back to the condition that befits its history.

I?m not a DK fan, but I have accepted that building a new stadium gives you better value for money than trying to fix up GP. Unfortunately instead of gradually developing Goodison through the years, we spent the little money we?ve had on desperately trying to keep the team in the top division. Now we?ve woken up and realised that the stadium is shit and the cost of bringing it up to scratch is prohibitive.

On a lighter note, just got a home shirt for £14.99. Nice.

COYB!

Neil

Nobody could argue with your opnion about the lower Bullens Rd, with the exception of the first few of rows, the view of the pitch must rank amongst the worst in the league, but the Paddock is very popular and always sold out, as is the Upper Bullens.

The Lower Bullens is screaming out to be gutted and replaced by plush new corporate boxes; if the demand for these boxes is as high as the club claims, they would pay for themselves in no time. The catering facilities could be brought up to standard throughout Bullens relatively cheaply. Tom Hughes has put forward some terrific ideas for this part of the ground and could explain in far greater detail than I could. I don't think Jay was denying that we have some very poor seats at GP, he was merely pointing to a way where we could aquire more good ones before adressing these issues.

Anthony

Try parking down by Westminster Rd, there are many many free parking spaces, all about ½ to 1 mile away. After the match, head towards town, up Kensington past Tuebrook and Join Queens Drive at the Jolly Miller. You?ll park free, miss the match traffic, and be on the motorway by 5:30 easily.

The ?golden age? of super-hyped SkyPrem football has peaked and is in decline, fans everywhere are bored with the whole structure of elite football... Let's face it, the majority of it, Everton included, is predictable and of shite quality, attendances are dropping everywhere and will continue do to so. A move to an out of town stadium any time soon will be tantamount to suicide.

John Gee, Walton is not an overspill of Liverpool, it's a large district of Liverpool, you prick, and it's no dirtier than any urban area anywhere in the country. Anfield is a much more rundown area and I?ve no doubt the RS could easily relocate to an out-of-town stadium without a hiccup but they appreciate that home is where the heart is.

Dan Brierley, if you are dissatisfied with your cultural experiences when venturing along County Road to Goodison, you have my sympathies, I'm sure the move to Kirkby will provide you with a fantistic day's consumerism and maybe the opportunity to take in a movie or grab a pizza, oh and there's the football........

Anthony Fielding, you say you make a 140-mile round trip to Goodison. Perhaps this is the reason you don?t give a shit about moving another 5 miles away from the city centre. The local support live and breath the club from the streets of Merseyside every day ? not just on matchdays.

Kevin Mitchell:

Without doubt (& outside of E J Ruane) one of the most stupid & pointless comments I’ve seen for a long while.

I now live 300 miles from Goodison, having lived just 4 miles away until I was 20 (almost 30 years ago). I still live & breathe the club as much as any Evertonian, 7 days a week actually, not just on match days.

In fact I’m sure, like Anthony Fielding, it’s one of the reasons I give up my time to follow & contribute to TW. Take it back & stop talking complete bollocks.

Ray Kelly, Walton is, in effect, an overspill of Liverpool. And lets try to knock off the insults because my opinion is different from yours... or should I just call you a cunt in this reply?

A lot of great posts on here but none can justify the mood of us blues more than Ed Fitzgerald.

Bill Kenwright is doing this because it costs him nothing in the short term but will gain him in the long term. If he had given us all the chance to vote on this issue it would have been clearly rejected. I think there were other options out there but it would have cost him too much money. Time to drop the banners around goodison in protest over BK?s running of the club.

IF the club were SERIOUS about moving forward off the pitch then we could have developed a long-term plan for a future stadium near the city centre or maybe in Everton itself but not some cheap quick fix that totally ignores the supporters.

Neil Pearse, you should read the article and refer to the facts as you complain others don?t. Fact is Juve are refurbishing an existing stadium to eliminate the poor visibility. Sounds like GP to me. And they?re adding a commercial centre. Just like the one Tom Hughes has proposed for GP? Still sounds like GP to me.

At last the bones of a sensible suggestion. Put an 8k top tier on the Park End and move the Lower Bullens ppl out to there. this will give you all the Corporate space you require.

Tommy, if you stop going to goodison because you're skint, are you still a blue? I will give it a go if the Tesco dome does come off. But after so many lies by the Board, who knows?

Refurbishing the stadium ? isn't that what we should have doing over the last ten years? It annoys me when you hear the CEO telling us how bad GP is but whose fault is that? There has been no major investment into Goodison Park since they put a roof on the Gwladys St.

Just think, if we had a board with a bit of vision and forward thinking we wouldn't be in this mess, we may have had a stadium similar to West Ham, Villa or Newcastle.

Tommy, I was moved by your comments to the point of anger. I support a team, belong too a club and I am proud to look at Goodison as our home. In the past couple of years, I still support the team, I am alienated by the club and have argued passionately about the motives for moving our home.

This CLUB expects those who live, eat, sleep Everton Football Club to roll over and just accept that Kirkby is the best thing since sliced bread. Well it's a stale joke. Kirkby ISN?t just a couple of miles down the road. Just as Bootle is. The sprawl of the community does not link the two places as it does Walton and Kirkby.

It's OUT OF TOWN, it's NOT accessible by foot, by bus, by train, by bike... Try walking down the East Lancs to Cherrywood... I did a few months back. Try that on a winters night. It's NOT the same as a walk back down to Mile End after the game.

So put the argument to bed for Christsake, just because it's 3 miles as the crow flies doesn?t make it a comparison in any way shape or form.

To those of you who would sell your birthright to Kirkby because Tesco tell you and BK tells you it's the best deal of the century, I hope you sleep well when BK and fellow directors walk away and leave the club in the proverbial shit, which they will do.

Goodison could be redeveloped, groundshare could happen, another investor will be found.

Trust this lot? Never. Believe then? Never. Why? Because they have no concept of tradition, are quite prepared to take the seven pieces of silver and condemn the club to an out-of-town site, leave a proud city to Liverpool FC who will NEVER let us forget it.

I hope your proud of that.

The alternatives are there; Tom Hughes's perspective on redevelopment deserves an acknowledgement and requires clarification. St James Park is a shining example of what could be done with a similar footprint. The difference? At the moment there isn?t the will at the club to even THINK about an alternative. Why is that?

I am a fan, a thirty year season ticket holder. Christ I even kept a bloody season ticket going when I moved to Australia!!! But I will NEVER agree to Kirkby as a new home for the club.

It's not sentiment. It's my home, my family. My Club.

So to BK and Tesco, just go... leave the club in peace. We will survive without you. It may not be easy but I can?t follow a dream when my sense of belonging is no longer there but back in Liverpool.

Kirkby is not Liverpool. Kirkby is not and never will be regarded as home to Everton FC.

Half the reason why a lot of stadiums are soulless, whether they are new or old grounds, is attendance. There is no point in having a stadium which at best will only be ¾ full. if Juventus have to down-scale, what about Everton?

One other possible reason for soulless stadiums is happiness: you either are happy with the football on the pitch or happy with the club. If you have neither, no new stadium or upgrade of Goodison will solve the problem. Sort the club out ? which will sort the team out ? which will bring the best club on earth back to the top ? which we all dream of.

Trust is needed ? no more bullshit answers!

Christine:

Great post, clearly a visceral thing for you. I applaud your sense of belonging, and conviction. It?s part of what being a fan is all about, as opposed to being a customer.

However, whilst I admire your devotion solely to the unchanging concept of Everton being at Goodison (or near enough) and to some royal blue righteousness that you convince yourself existed at some stage since 1872, I?m afraid I disagree with a great deal both of your diagnosis regarding Kenwright and to your naïve belief about an alternative to Kirkby.

I hold no candle for Kirkby, despite having a large bulk of extended family in & around Southdene. To me the only practical, fundable, attractive and morally defendable project is a Merseyside stadium of stupendous design. The Yes/No on that seems to mainly stem from perceived bigotry amid the supporters and misplaced arrogance in the Kopite boardroom.

You are not the only person with a visceral attachment to this club. It is also self-delusion to believe, as many of your eloquent posts suggest, that only those opposed to Kirkby, Kenwright, etc etc have the club?s interests and a sense of nobility. That?s utter bollocks.

There?s probably so much more that unites us than divides us. But to read these threads one sometimes wonders. Truth is, we all have the interests of EFC in our heart. Some think that not living in Walton renders one unworthy of an opinion, some kindly extend that to the City of Liverpool boundary & so on. There are Evertonians across the UK and across the world. I lived in Dingle till I was 20 and now live in beautiful Arundel. It?s a tiny town and my 5-year-old son is one of 6 (yes 6!) little guys who love to sport their Everton kit.

Makes no shit whether you live in Walton, Weybridge or Woolangong, if you?re an Evertonian then you care. The fact that some fans are more prepared to accept the (apparent) Hobson?s choice of Kirkby does not make them lesser beings. It might just mean they have more important things to get upset about in their lives. Maybe their devotion to the club doesn?t start & end with Goodison Park, and maybe they don?t see the faults you & others see in Kenwright etc.

Whatever the whys & wherefores, your opinion is both valued & relevant. Your support of the club perhaps more so. The same is true for every single one of us.

Gavin and Eric - fair points both. Rather than say that the Juventus case either supports Kirkby or supports GP, I think it would be better if we all (that includes me in this case!) would be a little more careful about using examples from elsewhere to support our prejudices.

The reality is that other cases are never very comparable to our own, and in the end each case needs to be looked at pretty much on its own merits.

Great post, Alan. Despite my personal disagreement with your assessment of things, you are in this post at least attempting to reflect the breadth and genuineness of feeling which divide us on this very contentious issue. Others, especially John Gee, please take note.

Great post Alan ???

So . . . EJ’’s post is "pointless and stupid"

Kevin Mitchel is talking "complete bollocks "

Christine is "dilusional" and also talking "complete bollocks"

Mr Kirwin then has the brass kneck to tell us, whoever we are, our opinions are both valued and relevant - thats when hes not referring to other posters as Morons -

Great post you call it Michael ?

I call it two faced, hypocritical, condescending, poppycock

So . . . EJ??s post is "pointless and stupid" ? Different post.

Kevin Mitchel is talking "complete bollocks" ? Different post.

Christine is "dilusional" and also talking "complete bollocks" ? Dave, in context: You are not the only person with a visceral attachment to this club. It is also self-delusion to believe, as many of your eloquent posts suggest, that only those opposed to Kirkby, Kenwright, etc etc have the club?s interests and a sense of nobility. That?s utter bollocks.

I can?t really disagree with that as one of the major problems with any debate of these emotive issues. Both sides have elements who are as bad as each other in this regard. I?d like for both to stop this silliness, please.

And Dave, Alan hasn?t called anyone a moron in that post, so why write it in yours?

Alan
Thanks for the post which, apart from calling me dilusional and assuming that all who applaud BK and Project Kirkby are not as good a supporter as those who don?t, which I did not do but neither was it my intent to let those who through complacency, apathy or who don?t care, get off the hook.

Each and everyone of us who proudly call ourselves supporters want the best for the club. We may all have vastly different perspectives but nonetheless we want roughly the same thing. To be part of a successful team AND a pride in who we are. If we don?t have the second part then we are, as you said, just customers. With this I totally agree with you on.

Many supporters of Kirkby can see the logic that the board has offered. But I and many others don?t share that vision because we have been consistently lied too, alienated, gagged and told that the affairs of the club are not for us to be concerned with. There is a lack of openess about all that is Everton FC that is shudderingly painful.

It's not just the way the vision was sold to us, it's the way they have decided to be selective in truth as to the motives behind the move.

It is the lack of commercial vision that got us to Kirkby, the years of decline and poor management by those who got us into the crap who now want to take us to the promosed land.

Forgive me if I don?t bow down and praise the lord for their foresight. On their watch we have seen the club become an non-entity from a marketing perspecive, we have outsourced all services and yet again today we see no more funds are available in January.

I hear people on hear say all the time, we have no money. Why is that? What is the difference with those other clubs in the PL? Could it be that perhaps they are managed better??

So now we are to believe we have no alternative to Tesco. No alternative to selling our heritage and giving up our standing in the city.

If the stadium was proposed a couple of miles further down the East Lancs at Carr Mill, would we be having this discussion? Or is that Liverpool too?

Unless one stands up for those things we love, we lose them. Kirkby may be full of scousers, my own family included when they were uprooted from VIrgil Street and Gt Homer Street, but Kirkby was set up as a New Town, (remember Z-Cars) and that's what it is. The fact that so many were relocated from the city itself does not devalue the scousers who live there but it does not make it Goodison, Anfield, Kirkdale or Walton. Birkenhead is closer and thousands of scousers live there, but it's Merseyside not Liverpool.

Rant over re location.

Finally, does it matter where the support comes from as long as the club is suported? Well, yes it does. Each and every scouser is proud of their city no matter where they live. They believe that the heart of a city is its people and, despite being flung to the ends of the earth, they hold some things dear. Perhaps you have to leave something to realise what you have. Perhaps you need to lose something before you realise what you had.

That's the lesson many of us have learnt along the way. How many people who moved to Kirkby didn?t want to go? How many in the 60s believed the promises? Is it relevant today? It is, very much so... the similarities of history are always repeated.

For those who don't see my point I guess you can just mutter "Utter Bollicks" once more..

Michael

This steady stream of abuse was started by one person on another thread and rather clumsily dragged across to this thread by the same person. There is always a point were really good debates degenerates into childish name calling. It's usually burried in one of the post submitted by one of the more intelligent people,

"Facile, Moronic, biggoted" were the words used to describe a fellow blue as he told him his post was an "utterly wasteful trail of facile, obnoxious drivel" ? hope that lots in context

Although a lot of what he wrote was buried under a few patronising backhanded compliments and he avoided using any bad language, his attacks on another poster were as fierce as I?ve seen on this site. His big mistake was to pick on the wrong person,

It's your show Michael, you're free to compliment whoever you want about his/her post, but most people will see who the aggressor is here and will not be suckered by the amount of non-swearing insults he has in his vocabulary.

Read through these posts and see what Kirkby has done to us already. Fuck me, Kenwright's about to sell our soul for about £50 million. Whatever your view on Kirkby, how can any of you be happy with Kenwright?

I've followed this club through thick and thin since 1968 but I've had enough. Are we smaller than Villa, Arsenal, Tottenham etc? Are we fuck. I'm sick to death of Kenwright and his supporters telling us "He's only a fan. This is our only option. Where would we be without him" etc. Everton fans used to have balls.

Fuck the liar Kenwright and fuck those who support him, I'm finished. I was there when there were only 11,000 for league cup games on freezing cold nights etc. I'Il be back when Kenwright's gone.

If Kirkby is so good
Why tell us it's effectively free?
Why tell us it won't affect transfer funds?
Why tell us the club is for sale?
Why superimpose the Emirates on the Goodison footprint?
Why tell us Goodison won't get a safety certificate?
Why tell us Kirkby would be the best served stadium with regards to transport?

If its so fucking good, why not tell us the truth and let us judge for ourselves???

Dave Wilson:

There?s no attempt at aggression in my post. I can only assume you disagree so vehemently with something I have said, or presume to have said, that you feel prompted to make the accusation.

The "compliments" you observe me making are genuine. It is also the case that so many people on this forum try to make some bizarre connection between where one lives and one?s a) devotion to the club,and b) right to an opinion, particularly regarding Kirkby. It is that point alone to which I protested "bollocks". Fairly mild in my book & sorry if it offended your sensitivities. Michael simply had the good grace to READ the post. Try it.

Never used the word "moronic". You made that up. What?s your problem with "facile", "pointless" or "stupid"? The posts by the person in question were precisely that and written in a ranting, dismissive and, yes, stupid, way.

I do applaud Christine?s right to her opinion. I also think she uses lots of words to emphasise and then keep re-emphasising her fundamental position. She has every right to believe it and say it. As Michael observes with my view, I observe with Christine, i.e. he thinks I am wrong and I believe Christine is wrong.

As for "the aggressor"? Hmm Let?s see, David Johnson, "fuck the liar Kenwright and fuck those who support him". Tell me Dave Wilson, is that aggressive, or is it so close to your personal view that it comes across as just mild banter?

The world?s full of hypocrisy and this forum proves it. With people like Christine, despite the fact that I think she could say more with less, one can have a good exchange despite the large difference of opinion. When one reads the strange rantings of E J Ruane, or the simple "fuck you all" musings of David Johnson, it doesn?t leave much space for a debate.

I used the word "bollocks" just once in my response to Christine, and the context (which Michael explained to you) was very specific. I think your charge is utter nonsense (and you can quote me).

Christine:

Good reply. Let me reply to just two things, with regards to where Evertonians live. I was primarily referring to the scouse diaspora, like myself, who have left town for whatever reason (in my case it was during the throes of Thatcher?s Britain and the work was down here). To keep banging the lid of this localisation thing is nonsense. Kenwright himself lives in London, and yet attends every game. Do you have any idea how large ESCLA is?

On the Kenwright issue. To me it?s a split issue. I think the accusations of his influence being a malignant one are miles wide of the mark. I have no doubt, and those that actually KNOW him swear it, that he is devoted to the club.

HOWEVER, there is and has been an obvious balls-up with the executive management & direction of the club for many a long year (actually since John Moores went). The obvious examples are the club?s nigh on incompetent marketing operation, and then of course our overall financial position. The former is unacceptable and hard to comprehend (other than crap people in charge). The latter is much more complex than some of the facile rantings on here try to suggest.

If Kenwright is in it for personal gain, as many suggest, then why hasn?t he taken the money and run from one of the many willing buyers that were falling over themselves to get the club, as many also suggest? It?s a fair question, but one that seems to get lost in the bile that gets spewed at him on TW.

So for me, Kenwright? good man, noble intentions, poorly executed (in parts) and has become too viscerally involved. As for the club, I think we are paying the price for years of neglect. It could have been worse you know. We could have done a Leeds, or a Nottingham Forest and possibly gone into administration to lose the debt and then try to rise again. But we?ve struggled on. The Kings Dock should have been our re-birth and boy was I depressed when that didn?t happen (sufficiently to write to Kenwright incidentally). But I?m over it and life moves on.

I just hope that if and when the club is bought (more IF than WHEN) the new regime address everything that pisses people off so much. I think that task is Herculean, and no, it?s not ALL down to Kenwright.

Alan Kirwin

You?re English is considerably better than mine. I may have used the wrong adjective. If Agressor is the wrong word to describe your initial unprovoked attack on a fellow poster, then I stand corrected, maybe you could provide me with a better one.

I am not interested in David Johnson's post, by the time he entered the debate, it had deteriorated to childish insults anyway. I believe you were instrumental in that.

I?m not for one minute suggesting that things don't get heated and insults are not hurled, especially when debating the Kirkby nightmare ? been guilty myself on more than one occasion, I dont object to a good old fashioned verbal punch-up.
However, I do object to your hypocrisy.
You label other people's comments as "complete bollocks" "facile" "stupid" "pointless" etc, then try to engraciate yourself by declaring "all our views are welcome and relevant "

You dragged this inane argument from another thread to this one, freely dismissing any views that are different to your own. Now I don't even object to that, but spare us the hypocritical nonsense.

BTW I just went back to your original outburst and the word Moronic is definitely there.
So your claim that I made it up is . . . . to use your own words "complete bollocks"

Dave Wilson

I would much rather be debating something of substance with you rather than defending the tone content of my posts. What is spectacular here is that you deliberately overlook content-free rantings from the likes of E J Ruane (why?) and yet you dance on a pinhead to try & find a particular word in one of my posts to prove what?

If I occasionally display a hint of hypocrisy then I apologise for it because it is unintended. Like Neal Pearse I have no problem with, and in fact enjoy, debating substantive issues with the likes of Christine, Ciaran and others. But I, like many, get utterly pissed off with fatuous rantings that contribute nothing to anything. E J Ruane is a case in point. His last two posts were devoid of any content and simply contained playground ramblings, peppered with the odd insult and complete mis-reading of a contrary post.

Why is it you don?t use your sanctimonious tone against these kind of posts, ones that have drawn put-downs both from others and from the site administrators? There could only be one reason for such reticence, namely that you concur with such nonsense. For the avoidance of doubt, that?s hypocrisy.

When someone tries to suggest that by (now) living a long way from Goodison my voice is somehow less relevant than someone who lives in Walton, I respond with "stupid" or something similar because that?s what it is. There?s a context and, if you really bothered to read these posts, you would note the context.

If you want to defend some form of decorum or start a respect campaign on TW then hey, you?ve got your first supporter in me. But please, don?t restrict your code of conduct to posts you simply disagree with because that of course is hypocrisy. I strongly suggest that, after reading my posts on here again (and you should, because I haven?t used the word "moronic" yet you keep saying I have), you read what came from the keyboard of E J Ruane and tell everyone what word comes to mind to describe such postings.

As for David Johnson?s unpleasant post; the fact that a) you are uninterested in it, and b) because you claim that I have single-handedly dragged this thread into the realm of childish insults, says more about your true stance than the rest of the camouflage you use. If you dislike hypocrisy so much then I suggest you start proving it.

To get back to what this thread was originally about, I would like to clarify that my post was intended to point out that the Juventus situation does not really have any relevance for Everton and the Kirkby debate. As Tom Hughes pointed out, Juventus have a national and global support, rather than a particular local identity. Torino have more in comon with Everton.

None of the Juventus stuff can be used to justify Everton’s desperation to move to Kirkby and probably not against it either. It will, as I said, be an entirely different mistake altogether.

Steve:

Fair dinkum & apologies for yet another TW thread getting embroiled in he said/she said drivel.

Juve are quite unusual in their support. Their home crowds are often small, sometimes miniscule. But they have for many years been "Italy?s team" and enjoy a huge national following.

Last word on Kirkby? I?m not sure anybody, and I mean anybody, really WANTS to move to Kirkby. I certainly don?t. But then we?re back to what, where, how, how much, who etc. The endless argument that so many think they have won, but nobody really does win.

I personally would be both delighted & impressed with a Merseyside stadium. But I don?t actually believe there?s enough cojones in either boardroom (especially theirs) to do it. That to me is arguably the biggest lost opportunity of all.

Where will it all end?

Alan

I have read your initial UNPROVOKED attack AGAIN ? thought it would be more comfortable than "dancing on a pinhead " ? and you very definitely use the word moronic
"Facile, Moronic, and biggoted post" you wrote. You really do need to stop making an arse of yourself by claiming I "made it up"<. It's still there in Black and white, man!

You attacked the wrong guy, he was too sharp-witted for you, that's all.
Hurl as many insults and accusations as you can muster, knock yourself out! I?m done with this argument and I?m done with this thread.

Kevin Mitchell

"Anthony Fielding, you say you make a 140-mile round trip to Goodison. Perhaps this is the reason you don?t give a shit about moving another 5 miles away from the city centre. The local support live and breath the club from the streets of Merseyside every day ? not just on matchdays."


And just what do you do that I don't, Kevin, to make you live and breathe the club every day??? It would be interesting to see if you would have so much commitment to the club if you had to travel so far to the games. Is my money and support not as important as the fans from the city, does it make me less of a fan because I'm not from the city? Am I not entitled to an opinion because I'm not from the city???

And read my post, I did actually say I didn't really want to move out of the city.

if you realy are gone from this thread then we can rest easy. If not then please say something next time.

I did indeed use the phrase "facile, moronic & bigotted" on a completely different thread in response to the nonsensical rantings of another contributor. For reasons of brevity I won?t insult other followers by repeating what he said here (see Christine?s White Knight thread and the musis of a certain E J Ruane). But to explain, facile (overly simplistic to the point of infantile rantings), moronic (ignorant & insulting) and bigotted (self-explanatory).

Now if you read the posts of E J Ruane and your take is nothing more than he is "too sharp witted" for me, then IMHO you have lost it. Aside from myself, other fair minded contributors and the site management have hit back at what must be amongst the most stupid postings ever made on here. Devoid of content yet over-flowing with insults & rantings. And yet you, the man who feels well positioned to accuse me of hypocrisy, insults etc etc, considers those postings to be simply sharp-witted.

Hmm. Now why could that be Dave?

I?ll keep this simple Dave, you?re just another hypocrit & your recent posts are a joke. I can only assume you two are related. There really is no other sensible explanation. I look forward to more sensible debate in future.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I know what I see and I know when I'm being lied to? My point was how can Kirkby be right when it has us at one another's throats. I may have used bad language but feel so strongly. May I add I attacked nobody in particular. Others have been much more abusive than me only in a smart-arsed condescending way.

John Gee sorry took so long to reply to your part of the thread but without using names a dual carriageway next to the proposed stadium gives you what exactly? Somewhere to park ? no, somewhere to queue as it was never built to handle so much traffic ? most certainly and even given it?s proximity would still not allow anyone to unload passengers so it?s proximity to a dual carriageway or even the M57 is irrelevant.

Anthony Fielding, the point of my post was to suggest that maybe, just maybe the fact that you live so far away you won?t feel the everyday effect of the suicide of EFC moving out of the city. To answer your question somehow I think I will feel it more than you.

Kevin

Well maybe, just maybe the reason you will feel it more than me is because you’re going to have to put in a bit of extra effort and money to get to the game, presuming that you do actually attend the games.

Anthony

Unlike you I don?t have to stand on my orange box to explain to everybody my efc supporting credentials. What grinds me down is your (and other people's) acceptence that we up sticks out of town because uncle Bill said it?s the only option. Well I?ve set my sights higher than watching Everton play in a shopping centre that might as well be on the fucking moon, and maybe you should too.

Kevin

Maybe you?re just too ignorant or stupid to see the facts as they are, and maybe you're just too old and lazy to accept change. It shouldn't be me explaining my supporting credentials, after all I'm not the one who isn?t going to support the club if they move.

Anthony

Yes your right, I would not set foot in any stadium in Kirkby. You see my everton can’t just be picked up and plonked anywhere and still remain the same.
Any stadium in Kirkby (or anywhere else outside the city) would be dull, flat, characterless, and would have no appeal to me, in fact it reminds me of you.