The Mail Bag
A more realistic assessment
Comments (26)
I thought some of the comments from Moyes today were pretty accurate. (See the lead story on the homepage, that contains some meaty quotes from the Moyesiah).
Seems he was allowing himself to be a lot more realistic about the team and their limited achievements so far this season, which certainly gives me hope that he does have both higher standards and higher expectations than we have heard up until now from him, or from his more protective apologists on here.
Gone the excuses (well, almost: "I think people realise we work from a slightly different position to other sides"... Uh?) and there is more of a positive focus on what the players should be achieving under his expert guidance.
And the comments from everyone and their mothers about the Prem being predictable... is it just me or were the results this afternoon something of a surprise? Liverpool unable to beat Fulham? Chelsea unable to beat The Toon?? Man City 3-0 over Arsenal??? And Boro getting walloped at home by the mighty Bolton?
If only it was enough to excite me once again....
Paul Hardcastle, Posted 22/11/2008 at 17:34:54
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What today highlights most is that, if we had got our finger out earlier this season and secured just a few more points out of the Blackburn, Portsmouth and Newcastle games (from which we took a total of one point!), we?d have been going into Monday?s game knowing a win would put us in third.
Our fixtures look pretty tough after Monday (and even that?s going to be tight) I just hope this isn?t going to be a ?if only? season for us.
Time to grab the season by the balls!
COYB!
Our fixtures look pretty tough after Monday (and even that?s going to be tight) I just hope this isn?t going to be a ?if only? season for us.
Time to grab the season by the balls!
COYB!
The results today confirm that a positive attitude and a little self-belief can certainly level things out. We seem to be lacking both at the moment when playing what DM perceives to be better sides. The second half against Man Utd showed what we are capable of. The fact that it hasn?t been repeated raises questions about the coach.
I thought we were relegation candidates and in for a ’long hard season’?
I haven?t seen much of today?s football nor heard too much on the radio. Truth is if we are not playing I?m not really interested. But let me stick my neck out and say that I bet Newcastle/Fulham got their results by dogged defending and a "they shall not pass" attitude. I wouldn?t think there was too much positivity or "lets take it to them" about these very commendable results for both Fulham & Newcastle. OK MOTD (if I watch) may prove me wrong.
We’ll be bottom 3 by xmas, without doubt..... I’m sure Tony Marsh predicted that not so long ago.
Funny tho. Not heard from him in 5 or 6 games. Wonder why that is?!?
Funny tho. Not heard from him in 5 or 6 games. Wonder why that is?!?
Coz I?m bored as well I?ll put Marsh?s hat on for a while ((thinks) not a bad fit)
A third of the season gone and we are out of everything except the FA Cup. Lucky wins and goals not withstanding, if it wasn?t for the failings of all the other shite playing teams ? Stoke, for FFS, are mid-table on the strength of a long throw ? we might be in the relegation swamp.
All we have to show so far is a semi-decent 45 mins vs a stuttering big name side who played us off the park and should've had us dead and buried by half-time.
We have an ?award-winning coach? who, some say, having bought the best squad we?ve had for 20 yrs (and now has stated that they mightn?t be good enough... who bought them FFS??) won?t or can?t get them to play simple basic pass-and-move footy. This same coach, that if he ever actually knew his best 11 doesn?t, seem to know the best formation to play them in.
This same coach, having bought one of the best natural goalscorers (along with Anelka) refuses to give him the type of ball he requires.
Added to which we have an out of his depth Chairman who wants white Knight investors to buy in / bail him out, but STILL stay in control... as if that's going to happen... and sees this Kirkby or bust / no plan B debacle / fiasco in waiting as his get-out-of-jail card.
Yes, I know Football is a business and money rules... blah blah... But we are forgetting that it is part of the ENTERTAINMENT business... Oh, and by the way, just how many times in 2008 ( or 07 06 05 04 etc etc ) have you actually left the ground smiling saying that was well worth the money? This is as good as it gets.
Have I missed anything out Tony??
Or will this get ? lost ? in the website move??
A third of the season gone and we are out of everything except the FA Cup. Lucky wins and goals not withstanding, if it wasn?t for the failings of all the other shite playing teams ? Stoke, for FFS, are mid-table on the strength of a long throw ? we might be in the relegation swamp.
All we have to show so far is a semi-decent 45 mins vs a stuttering big name side who played us off the park and should've had us dead and buried by half-time.
We have an ?award-winning coach? who, some say, having bought the best squad we?ve had for 20 yrs (and now has stated that they mightn?t be good enough... who bought them FFS??) won?t or can?t get them to play simple basic pass-and-move footy. This same coach, that if he ever actually knew his best 11 doesn?t, seem to know the best formation to play them in.
This same coach, having bought one of the best natural goalscorers (along with Anelka) refuses to give him the type of ball he requires.
Added to which we have an out of his depth Chairman who wants white Knight investors to buy in / bail him out, but STILL stay in control... as if that's going to happen... and sees this Kirkby or bust / no plan B debacle / fiasco in waiting as his get-out-of-jail card.
Yes, I know Football is a business and money rules... blah blah... But we are forgetting that it is part of the ENTERTAINMENT business... Oh, and by the way, just how many times in 2008 ( or 07 06 05 04 etc etc ) have you actually left the ground smiling saying that was well worth the money? This is as good as it gets.
Have I missed anything out Tony??
Or will this get ? lost ? in the website move??
The side would be in the top 4 if Moyes and Kenwright hadn?t made a James Blunt of the summer.
"All we have to show so far is a semi-decent 45mins vVs a stuttering big name side" ? I stopped reading it here. Only this sentence shows the level of your football knowledge; to call the reigning European and Premier League Champions sluttering big name side is simply ridiculous.
Keep it up you can dig deeper... Or you were speaking on the behalf of T Marsh ? if that's the case, please accept my apology.
Keep it up you can dig deeper... Or you were speaking on the behalf of T Marsh ? if that's the case, please accept my apology.
It is easy to say if we had beaten this team and that team we would be here, but the sides above us will have dropped unnecessary points as well (Villa at Stoke, the RS at home to Stoke and Arsenal yesterday and at home to Hull).
The fact is that Boro at home was (for me) our first decent performance over 90 minutes of the season. Despite this we are a 2-0 win at Wigan away from being 6th in the table and 1 point behind Arsenal. If we play well, we could genuienly go on a run like we did last season.
We certainly lost ground on Villa in the race to crack the top four in the summer, but no-one else gained anything on us. 6th is probably a fair reflection of where we are in terms of quality at the moment, but I feel that we could finish anywhere between 4th and 8th, depending on the key up-coming Christmas period. Fingers crossed.
Two random points from yesterday:
No transfer money to spend in January, apparently ? according to one quote attributed to Moyes.
And anyone else hear the fact on MOTD that Aston Villa, before yesterday, had lost the previous 14 meetings with Man Utd including the last 11 at Villa Park? Can?t believe it myself but proves that other managers, apart from Moyes, may also lack the bottle to play against the Big 4.
No transfer money to spend in January, apparently ? according to one quote attributed to Moyes.
And anyone else hear the fact on MOTD that Aston Villa, before yesterday, had lost the previous 14 meetings with Man Utd including the last 11 at Villa Park? Can?t believe it myself but proves that other managers, apart from Moyes, may also lack the bottle to play against the Big 4.
But when was the last time we had a win against one of the so-called ?Big Four? Sugar Ray? Aston Villa at least had the bottle to win at Emirates last week. Can?t recall the last time we did.
You have a fair point, Steve ? it was probably Liverpool 3-0 or Arsenal 1-0.
I was merely pointing out thought that somewhere down the line, a fair few Aston Villa managers, prior to Martin O?Neill, must have lacked bottle as well! We have an awful record against Man Utd but at least we picked up the odd draw and a 1-0 home win under Moyes while Villa were losing every single game during that period.
Moyes often does lack ambition, I agree. However, I?m sure Newcastle also lacked ambition at Chelsea yesterday and they got away with it ? ditto Fulham at Liverpool.
I guess it says as much about the over-domination of the top 4 as it does the characteristics of individual managers.
And Steve, I pack a mean punch by the way!
I was merely pointing out thought that somewhere down the line, a fair few Aston Villa managers, prior to Martin O?Neill, must have lacked bottle as well! We have an awful record against Man Utd but at least we picked up the odd draw and a 1-0 home win under Moyes while Villa were losing every single game during that period.
Moyes often does lack ambition, I agree. However, I?m sure Newcastle also lacked ambition at Chelsea yesterday and they got away with it ? ditto Fulham at Liverpool.
I guess it says as much about the over-domination of the top 4 as it does the characteristics of individual managers.
And Steve, I pack a mean punch by the way!
Richard Parker,
I think Micheal upset Mr Marsh a few weeks ago when he said he didn't have to write a post after every game? I think Tony took it the wrong way...
I think Micheal upset Mr Marsh a few weeks ago when he said he didn't have to write a post after every game? I think Tony took it the wrong way...
No money to spend... perhaps 3 players at £5M would be better than Screech at £15M... then again in 3 years this guy could be worth £30M. Saying that, I like him. But I think as Michael pointed out some months ago we?re always waiting for Arteta, or Cahill, or Pienaar, or Yakubu, or Saha to get back to fitness. So was it worth blowing the whole budget on Big Bird?
"No!" is probably the answer to Nick’s question. But, if it’s any consolation, I don’t see many clubs splashing out in January - indeed, I see a few fire sales happening!
At least having no expectations at all shouldn’t make for another transfer window like last Summer’s!
At least having no expectations at all shouldn’t make for another transfer window like last Summer’s!
Rather worringly I feel the faint fragile stirrings of optimism and hope about Everton. Where is Tony Marsh when you need him?! Also, why is it that messrs Marsh and Dodd seem to disappear at the same time? Are they on holiday together perhaps? The mind boggles. Oh well, until Tony triumphantly returns, I shall continue to wire my extremities to a generator. Not as painful as one of Tony?s posts but it dulls the cravings nonetheless.
........surely there is some suspicion that Dodd & Marsh are in fact the same person, suffering that rare form of schizophrenia "Divided Evertonia" - the wild swings of optimism and despair associated with supporting Everton Football Club?
I imagine them like the psychopathic three-headed knight in "Monthy Python & The Holy Grail" with one less head and infinitely worse breath.
I imagine them like the psychopathic three-headed knight in "Monthy Python & The Holy Grail" with one less head and infinitely worse breath.
Stefan, compared to how good they are as a whole, Ronaldo and others as individuals were last season, add on the result Vs Villa and yes I would deffo call them stuttering. But it?s all relative... we should stutter half as good. Now Arsenal, that's a full blown impediment. No money (surprise surprise) so the most we can hope for is some loaners.
Realistic assessemnt hey. Well, Davey Moyes also strikes me as a realist rather. However, he has just said he aims to add to the squad in January, but there is no money and that frees have to wait til summer. Accordingly, which player or players is he maybe planning on cashing in on? Cahill, Arteta, Baines and Lescott spring to mind who are on long contracts and well regarded/valued in the marketplace (while also perceived by some Evertonians as underperforming currently for Everton). They therefore command a big fee...
Can?t see it myself but just maybe Moyes feels he ?can?t make an omlette without breaking some eggs/an egg??? It's a funny old game after all...
Oh well, we hardly ever do any serious business in January so that doesn?t upset me much. Last years, in January, we brought in:
Gosling (one for the future)
Manny (twice on loan)
Gardner (on loan)
Anderson da Silva (£700 K)
Stubbsy (Great signing at that time, but came in on a free)
And that brings us back to January 2005, when we got Arteta on loan, Plessis on a free, and Beattie for a record sum. The only year when we spent some real cash in January in the Moyes reign. In 2004 we got no one in in January and in 2003 it was Iain Turner for some spare change and Ibrahim Saeed and Brian McBride on a loan.
These are all the players DM got in in January. Although there are some good signings in this list, Beats was the only one where we really paid a decent transfer fee. Most of them are loanees, freebees or nominal fees. Only Gosling reaches the £1M mark and as I said he was brought in for the future.
I don?t care too much about having no money in January. We will loan one or two players like we do every winter. Maybe get a freebee in. As long as DM has his plan ready for the summer and can do his business early next summer. No Euro Champs or World Cup to slow the transfer market down! And who knows, come January we might just loan the next Arteta and get in an experienced valued member like Stubbs.
Gosling (one for the future)
Manny (twice on loan)
Gardner (on loan)
Anderson da Silva (£700 K)
Stubbsy (Great signing at that time, but came in on a free)
And that brings us back to January 2005, when we got Arteta on loan, Plessis on a free, and Beattie for a record sum. The only year when we spent some real cash in January in the Moyes reign. In 2004 we got no one in in January and in 2003 it was Iain Turner for some spare change and Ibrahim Saeed and Brian McBride on a loan.
These are all the players DM got in in January. Although there are some good signings in this list, Beats was the only one where we really paid a decent transfer fee. Most of them are loanees, freebees or nominal fees. Only Gosling reaches the £1M mark and as I said he was brought in for the future.
I don?t care too much about having no money in January. We will loan one or two players like we do every winter. Maybe get a freebee in. As long as DM has his plan ready for the summer and can do his business early next summer. No Euro Champs or World Cup to slow the transfer market down! And who knows, come January we might just loan the next Arteta and get in an experienced valued member like Stubbs.
Derek,
Every team has a bad period when facing some circumstances, last year MU players played more than 60 games, then it was Euro 2008 its natural for them to have injured players and not to be on top form in the early stages.
The same thing happened with Everton at the beginning of the season, when we were playing with two teenagers, Jag and half unfit squad ? unfortunately for some readers these are excuses rather then real obstacles but the fact is that if you don?t have a long bench and adequate replacements you will always struggle at some point. Arsenal proves it now, Chelsea when they play without Terry, Liverpool without Gerrard.
There are critical players in every team and if they are missing or underperforming the team will suffer as well, there were a lot of knee-jerk reactions here based on 5-6 games when we had real issues ? no money, board turmoil, Moyes not signing his contract, injured and unfit players, short bench of only teenagers ? all this has to influence your performance as simple as that.
Every team has a bad period when facing some circumstances, last year MU players played more than 60 games, then it was Euro 2008 its natural for them to have injured players and not to be on top form in the early stages.
The same thing happened with Everton at the beginning of the season, when we were playing with two teenagers, Jag and half unfit squad ? unfortunately for some readers these are excuses rather then real obstacles but the fact is that if you don?t have a long bench and adequate replacements you will always struggle at some point. Arsenal proves it now, Chelsea when they play without Terry, Liverpool without Gerrard.
There are critical players in every team and if they are missing or underperforming the team will suffer as well, there were a lot of knee-jerk reactions here based on 5-6 games when we had real issues ? no money, board turmoil, Moyes not signing his contract, injured and unfit players, short bench of only teenagers ? all this has to influence your performance as simple as that.
I would like to see James Vaughan and Leighton Baines given an extended run in the side. At the moment, Vaughan comes on as sub and seems so desperate to impress that he really does resemble a headless chicken. Why not give them a chance and if they don?t take it consider moving them on?
There?s not much left for us this season, unless of course we slide down the table, so DM should take this opportunity to find his best side and, barring injuries, stick with it.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2008/1124/1227293466853.html
Another realistic assessment albeit from an objective source on the stadium debate... Can you draw comparisions between Milton Keynes and DK??
Another realistic assessment albeit from an objective source on the stadium debate... Can you draw comparisions between Milton Keynes and DK??
I think the players need to take a hard look at themselves. They keep coming out and saying how it is going to be diffrent next time out. Well they should shut their mouths and start doing it on the pitch like we know they can. Joleon is leaving holes everywhere, he needs to go back to just defending, and as for the Yak he need to be dropped until he sheds some weight and he ups his work rate on the field. We also need a holding midfield player, we're missing Carsley. So if any of the players read this, let?s see the pride of playing for this club be seen on the pitch.
On the subject of no money being availible for transfers in the New Year, shouldn?t David Moyes look to the reserve side for adequate replacements? If not, why bother with a reserve side in the first place.
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1 Posted 22/11/2008 at 19:20:24
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Bored maybe !!