The Mail Bag
Ratty and the Jag
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Kevin Ratcliffe is quite correctly one of our heroes. If we hadn't have won what we did win under his captaincy, he would still be one of the greats for his skill, leadership and phenomenal abilities. And I'm not going to compare Philip Jagielka to him ? not for a long while yet. But what I think is worth thinking about ? and particularly for those who have seen them both play at Goodison and elsewhere ? is whether there are any valid comparisons to be made between the two.
Keith Glazzard, Posted 01/12/2008 at 22:39:32
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I don?t think you can compare like for like. The Rat was probably the quickest central defender I?ve ever had the pleasure to watch - he was also one of the smartest.
Jag is also smart (a good football brain) and he usually turns up in the right place at exactly the right time. He?s strong and clever... but he doesn?t have the Rat?s pace.
I?d compare Jag with Dave Watson... a very similar kind of player.
One other thing ? early in the Rat?s development he was played by HK at left back... he was appalling.
Jag is also smart (a good football brain) and he usually turns up in the right place at exactly the right time. He?s strong and clever... but he doesn?t have the Rat?s pace.
I?d compare Jag with Dave Watson... a very similar kind of player.
One other thing ? early in the Rat?s development he was played by HK at left back... he was appalling.
There is one huge difference which was clearly shown by channel 5 during our run in the Uefa Cup , Kev was tatally unable to pronounce the Jag’s name , From TV interviews Phil has no apparent speech impediments so I can presume Phil has no difficulty with the interpretation of Ratcliffe
Rats a "cultured footballer"?! He was a top quality defender but his distribution was awful - some similarities with Jags there! One major difference was that Rats played in an era where the tackle from behind was permitted - he was one of the dirtiest players around - its hilarious watching back some of the old videos and seeing what he got away with.
Wiki says: Ratcliffe was considered one of the fastest central defenders ever to play football. [who?] On arrival at Everton he challenged the whole first team squad to a sprint race and won. [citation needed] Ratcliffe claimed that he challenged Linford Christie to a sprint in the street shortly after the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, in which Christie won the 100 m gold medal, and beat the runner. [citation needed]
I think the citation needed is an important factor there... but any half truth to it?
I think the citation needed is an important factor there... but any half truth to it?
I am afraid Evertonians on this thread are rewriting history here... Ratcliffe cultured? You are having a laugh FFS. He was a good central defender with great speed and positional awareness. His distribution was poor as is Jagileka's and his heading was not great either.
The trouble is we have destroyed the best central defender we have had at the club for years by playing him at left back (for the majority of time). Now Lescott?s confidence is shot to pieces, he is a whipping boy for the crowd. He is a victim of his own versatility, ability to score goals and get forward. I know I will get slated for saying this (as he is playing shite at the moment) but Lescott is a good footballer and should be playing at centre half.
Jagileka is a good honest pro who gives 100% ? he is a player in Moyes own image, I fear he would fill a team with similar types given half the chance. When we moan about hoofball, it is often from Jag's trusty boot that it emanates from.
Maybe I?m going to get slated for this suggestion but I?m going to put it forward anyway. What would people think about a 3 center back formation? Been thinking about this for a while now. Obviously we have 3 very good center backs and one (quite rare these days) a natrual left footer. Yobo with Jag?s on his right and Lescott on his left.
Whatever people might think of Pip I believe he?s a very good pro and gives his all for the cause and Bainsy on the left both pushing forward to get the ball in the box, (Pip = hopefully). That way Micky can pull the strings in the middle instead of being out wide. Cahill just behind the one striker we?ve still got fit and 2 from Pienaar, Ossie, Fellaini and Rodwell to fill the center. Just a thought as with our current injury list and current squad this formation may well work for us.
Jags is more like Stubbs! Without the height.
I think where the comparison stands up between Rats and Jags is in the outstanding positional sense that both have. Jags is MUCH superior to either Yobo or Lescott in this regard - he is just one of those defenders who is in the right place at the time, and then is willing to put his body 100% on the line to stop the attacking opportunity. If we are playing the comparisons game, I think the current defender he is most like is John Terry.
More like and mix between Rats and Watson.
Jagielka has been a revelation he wears his heart of his sleeve and gives 100% every game. The passion and commitment he has shown every game this season makes you proud to be a blue, just a shame they aren?t all as committed as him. The amount of last ditch challenges and blocks is incredible. He reminds me so much of Carragher for Liverpool and I remember Moyes coming out a couple of months ago saying "Jags is my Carra."
Phil "Jajelka"’s distribution needs to be worked on as much as Ratcliffe’s pronunciation before he can be considered a great.
Jags is lightning fast mate, like shit off a shovel.
Jagielka’s passing is terrible at best. He’s not that tall for a centre-half and not very fast.
However, one thing that you are guaranteed with Jagielka, is that he can defend, which is quite important for a centre-half! His positional sense is excellent, timing is superb and is prepared to put his foot and head in where it hurts for the sake of our club. Put him in central defence to defend and you won’t get many better players in the league.
Yobo is pacy but prone to the occassional blooper. Lescott is good and distribution is better than the other two but concentration lacks and gets caught out of position.
Eventually Moyes is going to have to make a decision on who is his top two centre backs and who works better together. I’d go for Yobo and Jags. If Lescott is not happy playing left back or sitting on the bench, he is going to have to leave.
However, one thing that you are guaranteed with Jagielka, is that he can defend, which is quite important for a centre-half! His positional sense is excellent, timing is superb and is prepared to put his foot and head in where it hurts for the sake of our club. Put him in central defence to defend and you won’t get many better players in the league.
Yobo is pacy but prone to the occassional blooper. Lescott is good and distribution is better than the other two but concentration lacks and gets caught out of position.
Eventually Moyes is going to have to make a decision on who is his top two centre backs and who works better together. I’d go for Yobo and Jags. If Lescott is not happy playing left back or sitting on the bench, he is going to have to leave.
Name a forward that has left Jagielka for dead? Thought not...
Think again. Just because he doesn’t look fast, doesn’t mean he isn’t.
I remember watching the dross that was the 0-0 draw home to Bolton last season and being amazed that Jagielka beat Anelka to the ball every time.
Look again and observe that the guy is pretty damn quick.
Think again. Just because he doesn’t look fast, doesn’t mean he isn’t.
I remember watching the dross that was the 0-0 draw home to Bolton last season and being amazed that Jagielka beat Anelka to the ball every time.
Look again and observe that the guy is pretty damn quick.
Matthew Lovekin, I think your assessment of the 3 is pretty much spot on. Also think that Jags is the only one of the 3 who takes responsibility for organising a defence which for me makes him first choice. I would personally have Lescott in ahead of Yobo for goal threat ? I also think some of his concentration lapses would stop if he had a decent run at centre back.
Jags is dead quick, reads the game brilliantly and should be in the England squad for sure ? how on earth Matthew Upson gets the nod over him is beyond me.
Jags is consistently our best defender by a mile, and for those of a certain persuasion like myself, who love a good tackle, then he?s a joy to watch.
The kid's on for Player of the Season easily so far.
Oh and is it just me, or are we WAY BETTER with Pienaar in the team??
Jags is consistently our best defender by a mile, and for those of a certain persuasion like myself, who love a good tackle, then he?s a joy to watch.
The kid's on for Player of the Season easily so far.
Oh and is it just me, or are we WAY BETTER with Pienaar in the team??
OK, the first time I saw Jaggers play was against Utd at home last year, and he looked like a fish out of water... Fast-forward to today and today's comments in comparison... Dave Watson.. Ratters... Yobo... Lescott... and John Terry... I think we all agree that we would be in a much worse position if it wasn't for Jaggers input this season. Jaggers, keep up the good work mate, you are doing us all proud.
Heres a curve ball for you all: how about playing Jaggers (RB) Yobo (CD) Lesscot (CD) and Baines (LB)??
Why move him from his best position at centre-half? Phil Neville is a more than competent right back ? I agree about Baines though, Lescott is awful at the moment.
James
How insightful of you? make sure you put players in the right position and keep them there. What a shame Moyes couldn't do that with Lescott, when both Baines and Valente were available. No let's fuck the formation up to ensure certain people always play.
How insightful of you? make sure you put players in the right position and keep them there. What a shame Moyes couldn't do that with Lescott, when both Baines and Valente were available. No let's fuck the formation up to ensure certain people always play.
James: agreed, on all points. I think it was the ?quick? part about him that put me in mind of KR. He mightn?t have the same top speed, but he moves rapidly to make those blocks and interceptions. Neville does the captain job very well, but if we did need someone else I think the assessments in this thread would recommend the Jag very highly. After all, apart from Ratty, he?s been compared to Mountfield, Watson, Stubbs and Terry. Definitely one of DM?s better decisions.
Jags is probably more Watson than Rats or Mountfield. Lescott is more Mountfield like.
By the way, the wiki is probably re-written by evertonians stuffed with urban legends! Maybe BEFORE 1988 he could have rivalled Linford Christie. He was considered one of the fastest defenders in Europe during the few years that we won the lot. After 1987-88, wheN he was out for some time, he?d lost much of his pace and concentration already. Note how he struggled against Liverpool in the 1989 FA Cup finals. Note how he lost to ball to his nemesis Ian Rush in the classic 1991 FA 4-4 cup clash.
By the way, the wiki is probably re-written by evertonians stuffed with urban legends! Maybe BEFORE 1988 he could have rivalled Linford Christie. He was considered one of the fastest defenders in Europe during the few years that we won the lot. After 1987-88, wheN he was out for some time, he?d lost much of his pace and concentration already. Note how he struggled against Liverpool in the 1989 FA Cup finals. Note how he lost to ball to his nemesis Ian Rush in the classic 1991 FA 4-4 cup clash.
Nonetheless, he?s held in high regards, and I am a great fan of this No 4. 'Twas he that made me decide that No 4 is the number for me if I ever play pro footy. Yup, he?s always getting caught (intentionally!) in those tackles from behind, and smiling his way out of trouble!
As has been said elsewhere - Jags is more in the Watson/Stubbs mould -albeit with a bit more pace. If he is able to make significant improvements to his distribution he would/could be top class.
I saw Ratcliffe in his pomp. His distribution was poor (left-footed punts upfield) ansd he was not naturally skilful. But.... he had lightning pace, good awareness and a ruthless (some might say) dirty streak.
He got injured in an FA Cup match against Sheffiled Wednesday as I recall - a bad groin injury - and never quite recovered his pace.
Goalscoring wasn’t his forte mind....
I saw Ratcliffe in his pomp. His distribution was poor (left-footed punts upfield) ansd he was not naturally skilful. But.... he had lightning pace, good awareness and a ruthless (some might say) dirty streak.
He got injured in an FA Cup match against Sheffiled Wednesday as I recall - a bad groin injury - and never quite recovered his pace.
Goalscoring wasn’t his forte mind....
I think the back four as a whole need to improve there distribution, not just Jags. Only Leighton Baines and Lescott (when he’s on form) use the ball reasonably well and even they have a tendency to hit long occasionly.
Looking at the stats Jagielka finds his man more than both Yobo and Neville. Lescott’s distribution is only slightly better.
The key to being a good centre half is reliability. Jags is a reliable defender, you know what your going to get with him. Despite Yobo and Lescott also being good central defenders the same can’t be said for them. In terms of defending which is key in my opinion Jags is on another level compared to the other two.
At the moment I don’t think there’s a better centre half in the League, his form has been superb.
Looking at the stats Jagielka finds his man more than both Yobo and Neville. Lescott’s distribution is only slightly better.
The key to being a good centre half is reliability. Jags is a reliable defender, you know what your going to get with him. Despite Yobo and Lescott also being good central defenders the same can’t be said for them. In terms of defending which is key in my opinion Jags is on another level compared to the other two.
At the moment I don’t think there’s a better centre half in the League, his form has been superb.
It?s funny really, we have Jags getting praise for being a soild defender, who gives 100%, but his ball distribution is woeful. Then we have Hibbert, who is a solid defender, is 100% commited every game, his ball distribution is woeful like jags, has had Ronaldo in his pocket a couple of times, but he gets slated most of the time. What?s the difference between the 2 of them, that warrants one getting praise, and the other getting ridiculed?
I have a feeling that if you put Jags against the slowest player in training he would win by a yard. If you put him against the quickest player in training he would still win by a yard. This is what I think makes him more like Rats than any of the others mentioned, as well as the way that they similarly read the game and both have/had poor distribution skills.
Brian - don?t you understand a full-back?s responsibilities?
Yes, of course at the top of the list is defensive capabilities, but also very high on the list is distribution, threading through passes and most of all... crossing.
Yes, of course at the top of the list is defensive capabilities, but also very high on the list is distribution, threading through passes and most of all... crossing.
Jags is more Watson than Ratcliffe. And whoever mentioned Ratcliffe in the same sentence as "cultured" obviously had a big ol? man crush on the Rat, which is totally fine but then love is blind. Ratcliffe was an inspirational captain and a mighty tough defender when that was still permissible... now, for "cultured" see Brian Labone, who no one will ever compare Jagielka to.
Jags is good but not in Ratcliffes or Watsons class. Lets not go totally overboard with rating our players as per usual. He is decent and one of the better centre half’s in the league but thats about it. No where near being an Everton great. We’ve seen so much rubbish at Goodison in the last 15 years any player doing OK suddenley becomes a great. Its why Arteta & Lescott etc are considered brillaint because some of our fans were not lucky enough to see true great players at the club.
Ratcliffe was one of the hardest players I ever saw, although he never really got the credit (if you can get credit for being hard!). It?s always been a source of regret to me that he never got to have a go at Roy Keane.....
Brian, I personally rate Hibs highly as a defender. However, Neville and Lescott pose more of a threat forward, as supporting/attacking fullbacks (in an ideal world I know..). In terms of CB, defending consistently is far more important that passing and crossing ability IMHO. Lescott is a better defending LB than Baines because of his size alone. And chips in a few goals. Baines is not exactly Ashley Cole or Evra.
Well, on Jags’s speed, I think I recall reading somewhere around the time of his transfer from SU that he was quite a successful sprinter as a schoolboy. Also agree with those who rate Hibbo. Brian is spot on there IMO.
Yes, Keith, very alike as neither one of them could find a blue shirt with a pass!!
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1 Posted 02/12/2008 at 04:40:30
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I actually think Jags is a more effective centre half but Ratters was a more cultured footballer.