If what you say about Keane is true, surely this once again lays low the lie about money? Surely if it's all about money, them Sunderland (along with at least half-a-dozen of the also-rans) would be consistently better than Everton??? They are not, and that in itself is testament to what Moyes has achieved ? it's a testament to what a good manager can achieve without gobs of money.

There is no doubt that he was content (or resigned) to do it without all that much money, and got deserved recognition for it. Yet in this summer gone, he gave up on that nonsense and joined the league of the money-grabbers, totally losing his way with the team in the process (he was actually contemplating leaving us, for fucks sake! ? that I consider unforgivable).

We now seem more unlikely than ever to get big-money backing any time in the next 2 to 3 years... and Moyes is under [large/generous/obscene] contract to be here for all of that. Consequently, he needs to buckle down, accept the fact, and do a far better job of picking up the good deals and the free agents ? above all making sure that every single day he is doing the absolute best job he can as Manager of Everton. Despite miraculously being 7th at the moment, I don't think he's been doing that this season ? not by a long chalk.

It?s a bit of a false dichotomy, comparing a manager's spend coming from the Championship and one already in the Premier League.

And I think you?ve underestimated what Moyes has spent as well...

At the risk of sycophancy, I agree with Michael?s comments above. In the summer, I believe DM began to believe all the hype surrounding his efficacy as a manager and allowed his EGO to get the better of him. There then followed a gross dereliction of his duty as manager and the club suffered accordingly. I am finding it hard to forgive him for that.

Michael I think you are being unduly harsh on Moyes there. I agree with the majority of what you say, but in the summer just gone Moyes talked as though he had been promised money from the board. He was as pissed off as the rest of us when it didn?t arrive, but I agree he shouldn?t have sulked about it and thrown his toys out of the pram.

However I think we misread what Moyes really wants. I don?t think Moyes could cope with the money that Hughes has at City at the minute as the pressure would be unbearable. He is simply looking for the money like Villa have (to spend £15-20 million on one big player each year, and then supplement that with £5-7 million players).

I think only right now are we seeing the team getting their heads down, along with Moyes, and realising somehow, they are still in the race for 4th, or at least a Uefa Cup spot.

Yes, Ciaran, but when Moyes took over we were relagation candadites season after season, and I would argue that we were a much weaker side than Sunderland who have been up a couple of seasons. I think Sunderland were expected to push on this season and finish mid-table... when Moyes took over, we were probably expected to go down.

Michael,

I understand your frustations about Moyes pondering whether to stay or not. But, given Kendall left us for Bilbao and then resigned on principle in his 2nd spell, how does that make Moyes any more disloyal or less committed to Everton than a great like Kendall was?

It?s also contradictory to say money doesn't mean anything then criticise the guy for raising our expectations so consistently on a meagre budget. In today's world Ferguson, Benitez, Mourinho, Scolari - they all spend massively to stay on top. How can we catch up with any of them while we don't spend even a third of their budgets?

Clubs like Spurs, Newcastle, Villa all pay there managers £50-60k a week. Why doesn?t Moyes deserve the same? If he doesn?t deserve to be on the same wage as his peers then at what stage does he graduate from the Unproven Championship level manager to a Premiership class Manager?

Ciarán,
"And I think you?ve underestimated what Moyes has spent as well... "

I haven?t ? look it up yourself.

Keane had a squad of 39 players plus ten or more out on loan, and 26 different players have started for his team this season. Who knows, but he may have done a better job of building a successful team with less to spend. And Hughes could fall into the same hole at Middle Eastlands. At one stage this summer I could picture him as our next manager, and as things have turned out, he might have been happier in DM’s position.

The scary-eyed Scot seems to have his focus back where it should be, and it does provide perspective to see someone like Keane giving up the chase, for the moment at least. And, of course, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

On balance I think Moyes has done a terrific job in the time he?s been with us. Things were very grim before he arrived and I no longer go into each new season with the fear that it will be our last in the top flight, we had so many close calls! Those who want Moyes out generally seem to not like the style of play and take issue with his tactics, both reasonable points.

However, there have been flashes of good football, especially last season and there have been some inspired tactical changes, or would it just be down to luck? I think that his pay deal is obscene, but that goes for the rest of the Premier League so he can?t be vilified for that alone. It?s more the responsibility of the people who awarded him the deal and I can?t help but think they have a hidden agenda. I know the debate will rage on (as it should), but for me he?s kept us in the race and revived our reputation on a fairly modest budget, so I?ll stick with him.

Phil,
A quick addition of Moyes's money spent comes out at around £90 million.

Ciaran, take into account the money Moyes has recouped in players' sales and you will see his net spend is around the £20m mark.

I don't know Keane's net spend but in the time he has been there, he has had hardly any players of value to sell ? hence why his squad is so large as his old players are in the main still under contract.

In: £76,750,000
Out: £64,100,000= £22.65m

Now... continue yizzer fight..

Ian Tunny, we have actually been relegation candidates in the reign of David Moyes as well. As Ciaran has said, he has spent a fair amount of money. The return has been; no trophies, two embarassing European campaigns, one slightly unlucky European campaign and truly appalling negative, fearful football. He has been rewarded with an inflated totally unjustfied contract.

Evertonians are apparently meant to be grateful that he has kept us in the Premier League. Well, in my view, he is incapable of of ever winning a trophy or taking us to another level. He is a battler who will sort out a crisis. If he had £100 million to spend, I doubt that he could produce an attractive successful team.

I used to defend this man. The summer demonstrated to me that he is self-serving greedy man who is not an Evertonian.

Simon Dunne, without the sale of Rooney, we would have been in shit street, end of story. £25 million for a player that cost fuck all is the reason Moyes?s spending looks acceptable.

Keane took over Sunderland when they had played something like 10 games without a win in one of them and rooted to the bottom of the Championship. For them even to be in the Premier League just a few years after is a miracle in itself.

Keane may have spent £70 million but he has wasted the majority of it without going into his transfers too much, he spent £9 million alone on a goalkeeper from Hearts who went for 7 against us and 4 versus Bolton at the weekend. He is as guilty as anyone for the inflated prices in the Premier League these last few seasons.

Would David Moyes’s contract have been considered to have been "large/generous/obscene" if he had signed it at the end of last season?

Half your tradition? How exactly?

Do glory days in the 80s count but not any other?

Jesus wept...

Typical ? Moyes is a great manager again after our 1-0 win with a deflected goal that was obviously down to him.

I would swap Roy Keane for Moyes anyday of the week, at least Roy Keane would tell Arteta he is shit and take him off set-pieces, he would sell Yak, the lazy shit, put Lescott in the reserves for a few games.

Roy Keane is a legend who has no loyalty to ?star players? ? if they play bad they're out just what Everton need.

Moyes has had Everton in 2 relegation fights, which was not his own team. He managed to get out the deadwood and bring in what would do the job. Season after season we did progress and have had very good seasons. I could agree with people who slate Moyes if they was lucky enough to go and watch Everton in the 80s. To all the others that didn't, who would you rather have? Smith, Walker I don't think so. Last season was not negative and was a great team to watch. Let's not forget we are not playing the best football this season and we are still 7th. Stick with Moyes and it will get better.

If Simon Dunne's figures are correct, then we have NET spend of just over £12,000,000. If that is the case, Moyes deserves a Knighthood!

@Roy

Roy Keane is a bottler with an over-inflated opinion of himself.

Quite simply, we have the very best manager in the Prem. True, his team doesn?t always play to his instructions and as a consequence frustrates us all but he is loyal, hardworking, a great developer of young talent and a stunning tactician. Only occasionally does he ask for money to take us on and invariably produces a rabbit out of his hat.

We should all be proud that David Moyes is OUR man!

Roy,
It seems to me that Roy Keane is a great motivator. It works for a time and achieves astonishing short-term results. Then, coaching and tactical ability are required. Keane doesn?t have either yet. Same applies to David Moyes.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the people who are saying that money doesn?t matter in today?s football for me are really deluded. Moyes can and will always pick bargains like Arteta, Cahill, Lescott or Saha and we will always have decent first 11 but under the financial restrictions he is forced to work with, we will never be able to have bigger quality squad and in such long and extremely exhausting season, this factor alone will always take its toll.

With the loss of Yakubu, Saha and Vaughan we will struggle again simply because we don?t have quality substitutions and sadly the money is playing big role in such situations, last year Chelsea were faced with injuries to Terry and Drogba ? and they splashed out £30M on this season's EPL top-scorer, Anelka, and a £9M rated defender. Now Everton are facing striker crisis and we are linked with 37 years old player?!?!?

Yes, Richard, DM?s tactics, particularly his use of subs, have often left me stunned.

Having money does not guarantee success but not having money guarantees failure. Low payroll teams don?t win the league.

I think Moyes has done very well, much better compared to Keane. My mate is a Sunderland fan and we argue about issues between the two clubs all the time. If you look at all the money Keane has wasted on players, whilst the majority of players Moyes has bought have been very good acquisitions, except for players like Krøldup, Beattie, Davies of course. But my point is, if Moyes was Sunderland manager instead of Keane, in the same situation as Keane was, Sunderland would be a mid table club instead of relegation candidates, I have complete faith in that? because Keane in my view was not experienced enough, though I admit, he still did a fantastic job to get Sunderland in the Premiership in the first place.

I mean some people say he has felt under pressure with large amounts of money, with Fellaini for example, I admit we payed too much for him, but I?m definitely not gonna say he?s gonna be a bad buy, Fellaini could potentially be world class! I don?t think Yakubu was a bad buy, and we payed £11 million for him, I even think Andy Johnson was a decent buy, because he scored his share of goals and we gained an extra £2 million profit from him.

I agree with the summer drama was horrible for me, like for all Evertonians, but if we carry on dwelling on the summer, we are not going anywhere. The way I look at it is we?re playing crap and we?re still 7th. If we starting play well, imagine where we will be!

The striker shortage may be a problem though, and as Stefan said, Moyes has done some good bargain buys, he?s gotta do some good ones in January.

Wether Moyes?s net spend is £12 Million or £12 Trillion, his Everton side will in general always play shite football. Go on, lads... give it another HOOF...!!!

Three European campaigns. Two of them "embarassing"? Would these be the ones where we drew Villarreal (and a corrupt Italian ref) and Standard Liege? EPL teams play clubs nobody has ever heard of in the CL ? and don?t always win.

I?ve just seen Villa, who put out a reserve team tonight against the "Slovakian unknowns" (I don?t think the commentator knows who they are) go 2 down. Funny old game, as someone once said.

Or if he has his team injury free they may produce Championship winning form like last season ? it depends on some key players staying fit...

?If what you say about Keane is true, surely this once again lays low the lie about money??

So the logic goes, one manager spends a lot of money and fails, thus being successful has nothing to do with money.

So what does it take to be succeseful?

Rather than comparing us to teams at the bottom, let's look at the teams where we want to be.

I would suggest those being Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal.

What is the difference that stops us getting to where they are?

For Chelsea, I would suggest the big factor, I am sorry is money, they have a good youth system now looking at some of the players they loan to the Championship, but trying to remember any that make the first team.

Man Utd. Good youth system, many posters couldn?t stand the idea of a certain Darren Fletcher coming to Goodison, but for me he looks a decent player, maybe he just in a decent side. Can?t fault Man Utd?s youth system over the last 10 years, mix that will the financial clout to get hold of some of the hottest youth prospects going (£30mil Nani and Anderson combined, £20mil+ Rooney etc) must surely boost their potential to keep producing enough quality from home, as well as abroad. I?d say the money helps. The system also allows them to look at bench warmers the like of Tevez and physio couch warmers the likes of Owen Hargreaves.

Liverpool. I would suggest Liverpool follow a similar strategy to Man Utd. Purchasing Youth from abroad to go in with the academy/reserves. But Liverpool are more reliant on buying the finished product. Still they can squeeze a few bob for the odd Fernando Torres. Their home grown talent has produced some good players of the years as well. The quality of their purchases can be dodgy though and they don?t have the ?draw? of either Man Utd or Chelsea, this leaves them just behind those two.

Arsenal. I deliberately left them till last. Big purchases at Arsenal do come. Henry was seen as a risk at the time. Infact, Wenger has a habit of picking talent that becomes household names rather than those we all seen in the papers/FM/wherever. He did transform the youth system. A lot came in from abroad originally, though now we seeing the young English lads coming through as well. I believe this was Wengers policy from the start, huge sums have been invested in the home grown talent, while also wages and transfer fees for talent from abroad (Anelka as an example from PSG), usually buying younger players than Man Utd. Still got some financial clout mind, Henry didn?t come cheap (for the time) and Reyes neither, they don?t spend the £20+ margins though.

So where does this leave Everton? Well I for one think we have a very good home-grown youth system. Over the years we have produced and it is vital we keep producing. Not many will come off, even players brought into Arsenal for a fee don?t have a great % chance of becoming first team regulars same as Arsenal's home talent (David Bentley as an example). But can we afford to take some chances on youth from abroad? Youth which can perhaps bring technical abilities our current crop don?t have?

I think we can, but not to the extent of Arsenal or Man Utd. But we do spend on youngsters, though they usually British based. Do foreign youngsters want to come to Everton? That I do not know.

So we build on our youth systems, produce players, we can do that we know it. We invest in those facilities to make us more attractive to young players from abroad, one or two to add to the mix, we find an experienced youth coach with experience of Foreign leagues to increase our young players technical skills.

And the money for the first team? We realise that we can bring in players, but one or two, and not the top ?overnight changers? like Torres. I believe Moyes has taken us on a road, but to continue that road to get where we want to be will not happen in one or two seasons. Because we don?t have the money for the ?short term?, but perhaps we do for the mid/long term...

I believe we will see a Championship at Goodison again, but don?t ask me when for I fear, it will take a long time. Youth though is the key as I see it, and a very achievable key. And one I would prefer to some Billionaire from Mars.

Hope this made some sense.

Phil
you're right to try to bring a bit of balance to the argument. Although I completely agree with Michael's take on the contract saga, I believe his obvious dislike of Moyes clouds his judgement. We are not "miraculously 7th", we are 7th because thus far, we are doing better than the 13 clubs below us.

People constantly bang on about people like Keane, Harry Redknapp, and Martin O'Neill, but Keane's gone today, and although Harry has transformed Spurs, we?ve actually increased our lead on them since his arrival.

The best bit is though, dispite Martin?s incredible managerial skills and the magnificent job he?s doing at the Villa, when we beat them on Sunday, the "gormless" "useless" "tatically inept" Moyes, who hasnt put a foot right all season . . . . . will be level with him.

Funny that.

Dave - quite right. Villa were trying to save themselves for us tonight, but still had to bring on Barry etc to try to avoid an ?embarrassing? defeat against a team they?d never heard of. And they screwed up.

They're there for the taking on Sunday.

I suppose if you wanted an objective evaluation of DM?s worth as a manager you might have regard to the fact that he was the 2003 and 2005 League Managers Association Manager of the Year.

Then again, what do football managers know? Why would we expect his peers, rival managers, to know anything about football and/or DM?s achievements at Goodison relative to the assets at his disposal?

The members of the LMA would all, to a man, resign and allow their places to be taken by the people who are truly competent to manage football clubs, i.e. the sort of people who spout on here that a two-time LMA Manager of the Year is shite.

Michael K:

Agree with almost all of your response. Up until May, Moyes was OK with most of us. He got on with the job, built a pretty good team with (in main) strong young players and took us forward (albeit with some aberrations, often in cup games).

From May onwards he blew it, you’re right. Taking into account his invisibility for about 2 months, then when he did appear his demeanour was openly negative and almost hostile, then the effect that had on the squad and our resulting poor start (not to mention the general standard of play all season), I would have read him the riot act and given him the ultimatum, either get back on message and sign the contract (but no way at over £3m), or leave by mutual consent.

On this point, Kenwright made a mistake, but Moyes lost an enormous amount of the goodwill he’d built up over 5 years in this period. In all honesty, he hasn’t got it back, he doesn’t really look happy or as motivated as he once was, and we are playing rubbish football.

However, where we disagree Michael is not for the first time, you are (unbelievably) trying to suggest that money is irrelevant in success. It may not be the only thing that matters, it may not even be the primary thing that matters, but to suggest that it matters not a jot is, forgive me, bollox. The idea that Kaka is allegedly "flattered" that Man City fancy him tells you all you need to know.

The EPL is the most polarised league in the world (outside of Scotland & the one team in France). Spain, Italy & Germany all enjoy healthier competition and regular surprises (Villarreal, Seville, Chiesa, Hoffenheim, Bayer Leverkusen). I suggest this is mainly due to the reduced disparity between teams when it comes to TV revenue & exposure.

Ciaran:

I’m no major Moyes apologist, but it’s slightly disengenuous to suggest Moyes has spent £90m. His net spend has been broadly acknowledged for a long time. The fact that this includes the windfall from Rooney, as someone suggested, is frankly irrelevant.

Overall the reality is somewhere between the two extremes on tis thread. I think Moyes should have gone for his behaviour towards & beyond the end of last season. But I also applaud a lot of what he has achieved in the last 6 years. I still think it’s a major shame that he didn’t take that game at Old Trafford in Oct 2002 and use it as a blueprint for how he wanted his teams to play.

Ha! Would ye believe I have worked in accounting for 18 months!

That was a howler of Richard Wright proportions!

The current set up of the English league / "Champions" League qualifying places is woefully crooked. We’re better placed than most to consistently finish top 6/8 without relying on here today gone tomorrow backing. We’ve one of the most dedicated, honest and respected managers in the league. We’ve got some fantastic players with a great attitude, who like the manager are totally committed. We are Everton. What more could we possibly have in the current climate? Come on, really?

"I?m no major Moyes apologist, but it?s slightly disingenuous to suggest Moyes has spent £90m. His net spend has been broadly acknowledged for a long time. The fact that this includes the windfall from Rooney, as someone suggested, is frankly irrelevant."

It?s not, actually. He got £27m or whatever to spend as a result of the Rooney transfer. The fact that Everton had Rooney had nothing at all to do with Moyes ? it was shear luck on Moyes?s part to arrive at the same time as Rooney. In that sense, the arrival and departure of Rooney was like a £27m cash injection into the club.

Imagine if tomorrow Everton were offered £30m for Baxter, and we accepted it. Moyes?s net transfer spend would be £30m lower (and in credit, according to the above). Would that mean that Moyes?s performance in the transfer market was any better or worse than it is today? No, it would make no difference at all to his historical performance.

When evaluating someone?s performance, you have to strip out all things (good and bad) that were beyond their control, like the £27m Moyes received.

It?s also wrong to use transfer fees as solely the guide here. If you sell a player for £2m and buy another for £2m, you don?t break even. Signing on fees come into it, and possibly higher wages for the new guy do too.

Simon Dunne...

Terrific stuff, Mate.

If you are going to discount the £27M he received from the Rooney sale, then surely you have to also discount the purchases made with that money. And I suppose to cut a long thread short - How many people would like Everton to approach Roy Keane to replace Moyes? Didn?t think so.
One other thing - Michael, I think you are suffering from the longest bout of PMT in history ;-)

OK, but if you start to be selective and ’strip out’ different factors and things when determining Moyes performance, won’t we end up with a "but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health .......... what have the Romans ever done for us?" type scenario?

Far be it from me to defend Moyes, just a thought that’s all.

I think Moyes is better without money, or at least with a very limited amount. When he has had money to spend he?s just bought for the sake of it: Van der Meyde, Davies, Kromkamp etc. Whereas with limited money he has bought wisely eg. Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Lescott etc!!!

I?m a big fan of Moyes, I think he is a very good manager and has done and will continue to do a very good job at Everton and I believe that Everton will continue to progress!!!

"If you are going to discount the £27M he received from the Rooney sale, then surely you have to also discount the purchases made with that money."

No, you don’t. Think of it this way: just imagine Spurs sold all of their players overnight for £200m on 1 Jan, and Redknapp bought an entirely new squad.

At the same time, a foreign investor puts £200m into Stoke City, and their manager (whoever he is....Pulis?) spends it all on players.

Then Redknapp has a net spend of nothing, whereas Pulis has spent £200m. However, in reality it’s perfectly fair to compare how they spend their money because in effect it’s the same thing.

"OK, but if you start to be selective and ?strip out? different factors and things when determining Moyes performance, won?t we end up with a "but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health .......... what have the Romans ever done for us?" type scenario?"

Agreed. I’m not arguing that we should analyse every detail, in fact I’m arguing against it. I’m just pointing out the flaws in using "net transfer spend" as a measure of how much a manager has spent, because

(1) The amount he spends doesn’t include wages and signing on fees, and does include amounts he earnt himself (through higher league finishes etc);

(2) The amount he receives in transfers include youth sales;

(3) The transfer fees we read in the press are usually wrong anyway in this age of undisclosed fees.

OH RIGHT!

You didn?t actually mean money spent... you meant money spent minus money brought in from player sales..

OH I SEE!

Silly me.

"He managed to get out the deadwood and bring in what would do the job."

Have you managed to watch us play this season?

Michael - why is it unforgiveable that Moyes thought about leaving Everton? Have you never thought about leaving your job?

I think it?s testament to the honesty of the man that he admitted he thought 6 years was enough. He then realised that this was an arbitrary rule and he was just as passionate about the club now as he was 5 years ago. What the hell?s wrong with that?

Alex Ferguson thought about leaving on several occasions in the early 90s ? he has said as much in numerous interviews.

Unforgiveable would be if he left us in a perilous situation. I can certainly forgive someone for briefly questioning whether 6 years in one job is to much, then deciding he in fact wants 6 more and attacking the job with gusto.

Alan,

Moyes's spend on players is around the £90 million mark... that is not disingenuous, that is simple addition. If you don?t believe me, go to the official site and get out a calculator. What was brought in from player sales is completely irrelevant. What?s in dispute is his spend. Nothing else.

Keane is a quitter, Moyes has been in worse situations than Keane and still turned it around, and I think Keane could have done the same if he had hung in there. When the going gets tough, Keane fucks off.

Ciaran (& Simon Skinner):

Can we stick to standard & simple accounting principles here, rather than selectively simple numbers.

Moyes has NOT been given £90m net to spend on players. Most have been bought by selling others. I believe he has the lowest net spend of any club in the EPL. You can judge that stat depending on your point of view.

One obvious recent example - how do you separate the money received for Johnson with the money spent on Fellaini? Or are you really suggesting that we simply forget that we sold one of our top forwards, a full international, for c. £12m? Do you think that we would have bought Fellaini had we not sold Johnson & that these two events have nothing to do with each other?

They are inextricably linked. One facilitates the other. It?s utter nonsense & financially illiterate to suggest otherwise. Had we not sold certain players then we would not have bought others, then there would be nothing to discuss. To suggest that what was brought in from sales "is completely irrelevant" is a mind-boggling affront the laws of finance.

Think of it this way. If you get a bonus in your wages then you can afford to spend it all on Everton memorabilia, and then reflect on just how much you?ve spent/wasted on Everton memorabilia. If you don?t get the bonus then you don?t spend the money and, hey presto, nothing to analyse.

I?m not defending Moyes, as you can plainly see from my previous posts. I have an issue with misleading statistics that distort the facts and the argument.

Ciaran,

Richard is looking pretty silly as well but to argue that Moyes spent £90M and not taking into account the players sales is very close to him.

Simon,

Rooney?s money is not an extra investment ? Moyes gave Rooney the chance, he became international under Moyes, he played for Everton for 3 seasons before getting transferred, so he is essentially Moyes player.

Ciaran,
You don?t half talk some shite!

To question the money he?s spent and ignore what he?s brought in is ridiculous.

I thought we paid too much for AJ, now when I look back and see we sold him for even more ? that now looks like good business.

That's like your boss at work giving you an appraisal and saying "I?m going to ignore all the good things you have done for us and count up all your sick days, dentist appointments and time spent on ToffeeWeb when you should be working." Not really fair is it?

@ Simon Skinner.

Awesome, awesome awesome!!!

Thats really brightened my day up... I now have an image of Monty Python in silly wigs and Everton shirts!!

Excellent stuff!!!

Mick,

Pretend you can read for a second... on the basis of this highly debatable premise, I think that you?ll find that this debate over spend has emanated from the following suggestion in the article above...

"Now we have Moyes who has spent less in 6 years than Keane did in 2 years".

A simple debate about spend I think you?ll find (on my part anyway)... nothing whatsoever to do with money coming the other way.

Perhaps before using such pejorative terms in future, you should do yourself a favour and inform yourself as to the subject matter.

"Rooney?s money is not an extra investment ? Moyes gave Rooney the chance, he became international under Moyes, he played for Everton for 3 seasons before getting transferred so he is essentially Moyes player."

Well some of it is equivalent to investment, unless you are suggesting that, without Moyes, Rooney would have been worthless. How do we split it? God only knows, which is yet another reason why some simple equation can?t possibly sum up how much a manager has been given to spend.

Alan,

See above. The orginal point I was making was a simple comparison of money spent ? THE POINT ALSO MADE IN THE ARTICLE..

If you want to digress on the basis of additional qualifications, then be my guest.... But don?t try and obfuscate the simple point I made.

Ciaran,

I think we may be losing the whole point of this article in an arguement over a balance sheet. For argument's sake, Moyes has spent a not too disimilar amount over 6 years as Keane did in 2. That is not up for debate as it?s a fact. Be it slightly less, slightly more. My point was... Keane is regarded as a good coach yet has not even come class to matching Moyes?s (relative) success and spent a lot more comparatively.
Keane?s team?s dont even play great football. Yet why is he deemed a great young manager but Moyes is worse than Walter Smith?

It is not a ?fact? Phil... That?s the whole point...

You said Moyes spent less than £60 mill when in fact he spent £30 mill more.

I wouldn?t have been so pedantic if this ?slightly? miscontrued figure didn?t fuel the erroneous conclusion that Moyes has effectively had no money.

It?s simple not true... You seem to regard facts as important, therefore let's start from a factual basis.

And by the way, I?m not in any way suggesting, or implying that Keane is a better manager than Moyes..

To be honest, I think your ?bit of perspective? proves absolutely nothing... Keane couldn?t even get crap players to sign for him for goodness sake.

Roy

"Roy Keane is a legend who has no loyalty to ?star players? ? if they play bad they?re out just what Everton need. "

Oh yeah because we?ve got a string of world beaters on the bench just chomping at the bit to replace Arteta/Cahill et al. That?s all we need... a manager falling out with our best players and replacing them who? Michael Chopra?

Simon,

He could have played in the reserve side until he is 20 right? The point is Moyes is giving the youngsters a chance and he is backing them all the way. It's one thing taking the risk and playing a 16-year-old kid in the EPL and another letting young players into the reserves or going out on loan. As you said, it's a tough call but I am leaning towards the view that the Rooney transfer can't be counted as an extra investment.

Ciaran,

If we assume the top estimate of yours at £90M ? taking the undisclosed fees at the very top of their rumoured cost ? Moyes: £90M/6 = an average of £15M per year spend ? not including players sales;

Keane: £70M/2 = an average of £35M per year spend ? not including players sales

Now compare to Newcastle over a similar period of 6 years. Or Spurs over that period. Our spending dramatically fails in comparison. Moyes has had relatively fuck all to build a top side.

Now going back to the original question. Is Moyes really that bad?

Roy Jones,

"Roy Keane is a legend who has no loyalty to ?star players?."

That?s because Sunderland don?t have any. He spent over two seasons at Sunderland, and bought one good player, Craig Gordon, for £9M. I could have told you that Craig Gordon was an excellent keeper [hence the price tag], so I don?t think this qualifies him as a genius.

Legend my arse.

Phil,

My calculations were conservative. You ask a question... is Moyes really that bad?

My answer would be ?no he?s not?.

If we look at what he?s bought for that money, then you can hardly get excited... in fact I?d say close to 50% of his spend have been duds or mediocre players...

But if you look at what he got out of what he bought, then no-one can say he hasn?t done well...

But to say he?s some sort of genuis is taking the mick.

David Moyes can only buy players that A) he?s given enough money to buy, and B) want to come to Everton ? on both regards his hands are tied, so if you?re naive enough to think he buys so-called mediocre players or duds deliberately then you?re blinkered.

The bigger picture is so often ignored by football fans the world over.

Roy Keane is a deserter, he deserted Ireland at the World Cup, and he?s done to the same when the going got tough at Sunderland ? absolutely no comparison.

David Moyes only ever wanted what other managers get paid, so any talk of him being a money-grabber is bullshit.

I don?t agree with anything said above.

Ciarán: [[ I wouldn?t have been so pedantic if this ?slightly? miscontrued figure didn?t fuel the erroneous conclusion that Moyes has effectively had no money. ]]

Ciarán ? Ignore the original post. Forget it ever happened. Is winning an argument against one person more important than arguing about facts? So let?s pretend he NEVER mentioned any figures. Okay?

So the net spend under Moyes according to those in this thread is around £12 million. I will assume this is significantly less than the net spend of the Sky Four. Is this more or less than the net spend of Villa, Portsmouth, City, Sunderland, Newcastle and so forth?

That is the ONLY determination of how much Moyes has had to spend.

It doesn?t matter if Phil originally said that Moyes has made £100 million in profit from player sales. Phil being wrong doesn?t make your point about Moyes correct.

Let?s look at the net spend of Moyes in comparison to other teams and that gives us some point of comparison with which to compare his results.

Stefan Tosev wrote "Rooney?s money is not an extra investment. Moyes gave Rooney the chance, he became international under Moyes, he played for Everton for 3 seasons before getting transferred, so he is essentially Moyes player."

To anyone who saw Rooney before David Moyes arrived at our club ? he had talent way beyond the majority of players of his age and experience and a manager would have had to be a complete failure to have not given Rooney a chance in the first team. Rooney?s international call-up was due to his natural talent and performances on the pitch and not because of great coaching or tactical genius from Moyes.

I have been as critical of David Moyes as anyone but I believe that one of the big plusses of his reign has been in some of the signings he has not made. Nugent, Smith, Butt, Forsell are a few that spring to mind. I?m sure there are others we have been linked to who have gone elsewhere and failed.

I think his transfer record is fine; it?s his ability as an attacking coach that bothers me. Also, we no longer seem up for every game, something I would never have expected from a Moyes team. One more point; Keith Glazzard, in retrospect our loss to Liege was not an embarrassment, though we did underperform. Our capitulation to Bucharest most certainly was.

At least Moyes played Rooney in his proper position, instead of left and right wing like he did for a couple of seasons at Man U, where he was sacrificed and nowhere near as effective. Although it was for the benefit of the team.

Mind you Man U did the double, so the sacrifice was worth while, similar to the way Moyes has played players out of position for the benefit of the team. If it doesnt work, he?ll switch it round, and people say he has no tactical nouse.

I deliberatly avoided going into a debate about net spend versus actual spend etc.

Ciaran, my mistake if I originally said Moyes spends an average £12M per year instead of £15M. However my point is still valid! AGAIN, compare to Martin Jol @ Spurs or Newcastle?s expenditure. Now consider net spends (what Heath said above) and pound for pound we have one of the best managers in the league.

I?m not saying Moyes was/is a genius. I merely implied (very simply) his net spend being far less than any of his peers ? and yet he regularly finishes above these rivals. However he recieves criticism for;

1) Playing shit football (just like 16 out of 20 PL clubs
2) That he was disloyal for considering if he had taken the club as far as he could.

Given the sht budgets and Boardroom fuck-ups of previous seasons and this one. It's fair to say he was right to do this. Unlike Kendall he didnt fuck off and he signed a new deal. Which renders this argument completely irrelevant anyway.

We could replace Moyes tomorrow, with the greatest manager in world football (whoever it is). Our football may be marginally more attractive but they wouldn't get us a title or CL football with BK in charge. As we have no money. We don't even compete financially with the 2nd tier of the PL.

Either way Moyes played Rooney to his strengths at the centre of everything, which helped Rooney become the superstar he is today. Instead of pushing him out wide to accomadate Tevez, Ronaldo and as many other super stars as possible.

Heath,

Ignore what I was talking about? That would be pretty daft would it not?

I provided a contrary to the purported factual statement in the article. That was the entire sum of my contribution... I have no idea why you expect me entertain arguments beyond the boundaries of my proffered position.... in fact, it?s an absurdity.

However, If you wish to engage in absurd dialetics then be my guest... after all it?s Friday. But don?t expect it to go anywhere logical.

Ciaran, You only clarified that Moyes spent £3M more per year than what I said originally in the original post. Even considering this fact, your point is still irrelevant in the context of the article.

Michael,
Unforgivable. As in you can never forgive him??? The summer was crap for many other reasons than DM:

Our CEO (love him or hate him) resigned.
We had to sell one of our best players: AJ.

All of that was out of DM?s hands. But it?s his fault. It?s all his fault.

Phil,

If you?re trying to confuse me - you?re succeeding. You produced a purported fact, which was incorrect. And I simply corrected you ? in the interest of fairness... End of story. How long until this sinks in?

Mr Sherlock,

AJ, one of our best players? In which dimension?

In retrospect, there can be no doubt that Davey?s Dithering, which started God knows when but lasted all through the summer, was a ? if not THE primary driver of pretty much everything that went down the pan. We don?t know everything that went on behind the scenes but Kenwright would have been mad to fund Moyes?s plans under the possibility of his impending departure from the club... Absolute madness.

That is when Moyes totally fucked up the club ? the spirt, the confidence, the optimism, the feelgood factor being "Best of the Rest", any prospect of signing decent players ? all down the pan because of Moyes?s moment of self-contemplation, just at the time when he really needed to buckle down and move Everton forward.

Instead, the fucker has a crisis of his own confidence, seriously contemplates leaving his Premier League meal-ticket... until he hears something Sir Bobby Robson says that finally brings him to his senses... by which time it?s too late! Far too late!!! All the damage has been done, and we?re five, ten, fifteen steps backward from where we should be as a club. And for me, that is all down to Moyes.

It?s far more than him just thinking about leaving. It?s the total package of consequences that is unforgivable for me.

Michael, an equally valid interpretation is that Kenwright?s inability to fund the manager?s summer plans provoked Moyes into considering his long term committment to Everton.

As you correctly point out we don?t know everything that went on but I see you don?t let that stand in the way of another opportunity to direct your bile toward Moyes.

How was selling Andy Johnson out of Moyes?s hands? That's bullshit mate, he could have kept him if he wanted to, but maybe what you?re trying to say is that Moyes had to sell him to boost the funds to bring in another midfielder (Fellaini).

Doddy, you said Moyes is loyal, if that was the case, why the fuck didn?t he just get on with doing his job through the summer, instead of holding the club to ransom, for a huge mega bucks contract? To me, that?s not being loyal, that?s being a greedy bastard. And before you all start with the "He deserved his huge contract" can I ask you all, what has the man acctually won? Also Doddy "A stunning tactician"... Do you actually go the games? The man wouldn?t know a tactic if it came up and bit him on the arse.

Brian, every thing that you have said is spot on. David Moyes demonstrated in the summer that he is not an Evertonian. Unfortunately, Celtic cannot afford him. We are stuck with him for the foreseeable future and I see nothing but mediocrity ahead.

James Carlyle, I said that David Moyes was not an Evertonian because of what happened in the summer. We care more than he does. Can he actually look at what he has done at our club and demand £3-5 million a year?

Also, Richard Dodd, can you provide any evidence of the stunning tactics of David Moyes? We deserve better.

Same old same old. However much the Moyes haters calculate the numbers, Moyes at Everton has achieved far better results than managers who spent far more at Sunderland, Spurs, Man City and Newcastle (to name just four).

Nor has he played any worse football than any of these four (or anyone else in the Prem apart from some of the Big 4 sometimes).

Nor has he performed worse in the transfer market (indeed, almost certainly he has committed less expensive howlers less frequently than most).

I wish Moyes played better football, and I wish he hadn’t gone awol in the summer.

But let’s not take a trip away from reality and completely falsify history.

You peoples crazy? Moyes wanted to move this club forward this summer; unfortunately, cash restrictions didn't allow it yet again, the guy was exhausted towards the end of the silly season, frustrated by the lack of cash, board turmoil, injuries, small squad and you think he was dithering?!?!?

How about wanting to improve and demanding at least some transfer funds not the one generated by AJ an Faddy sales, but some extra funds based on 5th place and Uefa Cup run?

Why no one mentions the fact that all the pre-season was done with the reserve squad, beeing able to make only one pathetic half-time substitute in a friendly?!? You think it was his wish?!?

Ok. that?s enough. Great website, but Michael ? your deeply unpleasant and overbearing hatred of David Moyes has made this website completely unvisitable.

Best of luck (it really is a fabulously run website). The Everton fans I know enjoy a laugh and a joke ? and they also have some perspective. This site lost perspective a while ago but Michael?s last comment has finally taken things too far.

See many of you at Goodison on Sunday.

Perspective and balance is indeed impossible when people?s minds are so selective. Stefan... money was available. Let me try that again... MONEY WAS AVAILABLE!

Ian Ross told us it was. You?re not saying he was a liar... are you? As I recall, even the CEO said money was available. Surely they can't both have been lying to us??? Whereas I don't recall Moyes ever saying it was lack of money that was the problem. He gave us some mumbled tangential explanation, citing "a number of things" ? duplicitous agents, I remember that.

But he was always careful to say that Bill Kenwright was fully supportive of him and his plans. Don't tell me David Moyes was lying as well!

Michael, you said further up the thread that we don’t know what went on behind the scenes and that much is true. We have few facts and a lot of anecdotal evidence.

One school of thought has it that Moyes, given his preference to get players in well before pre-season training, told the Board his ambitions and targets at the start of the close season but was then stonewalled when it came to the provision of funds until around the time the current season started.

The other argument comes from the club, specifically Ian Ross’ assertion that Moyes had had £17m since May but was refusing to use it. Personally, I can’t square that with the fact that he was forced into selling Andy Johnson. Moyes came from holiday to categorically state that AJ wasn’t for sale after, we have to assume, it was leaked to the press in his absence that Everton were entertaining a bid from Wigan. He then had to do a public volte face and sell Johnson to raise funds.

If he’d had £17m without the sale of AJ, he would have had a kitty of £27m before the deadline but that clearly was not the case. We paid £4m-ish down for Fellaini and even that was a stretch — at the AGM, Kenwright admitted that the Club couldn’t sustain another summer of somehow finding the money to buy players, hardly reflective of a ring-fenced £17m.

Moyes himself, in a statement to the press after the USA tour, hinted at his frustration at the lack of funds and basically denied that the money had been there all along. He contradicted himself somewhat after that, saying that everything was hunky dory — maybe he thought he’d said the wrong thing.

On top of that, there were stories from fans in Chicago of the shit really hit the fan and Moyes apparently venting his spleen to everyone in earshot about the lack of funds available).

I believe it was that general disillusionment with the Board and the future prospects for a decent transfer fund that made him question his future. I don’t for a second believe he was dithering on that contract — and losing a tidy sum over the course of the summer while it remained unsigned — because he simply couldn’t make up his mind if he wanted to continue the job he’d started at Goodison.

Something made him agonise over his future and I wouldn’t bet against it being him being made to look a mug while the close season dragged on without the Club having made a single purchase. After all, was the same scenario not played out the year before when, upon returning from his mother’s funeral, he apparently threatened to resign in protest at the lack of cash, only for a mortgage to be hastily paid off thanks to Robert Earl’s guarantee and £20m suddenly appeared for Yakubu and Fernandes.

I don’t believe that Moyes is always telling the truth but I have more faith reading between his lines than I ever did in anything Keith Wyness ever said, so citing the then CEO won’t persuade me. And the complete absence of money for the forthcoming transfer window would seem to confirm to me that having taken in more money over the summer than they spent, EFC did not have £17m to give to Moyes. Not even close.

Richard

Michael?s is merely reflecting the views of many Evertonians.
I?m not sure about DM?s conduct being unforgivable - if he was to deliver the cup or a CL place, last summer would soon be forgotten - but MK is right, whether DM acted in the interest of the club or the interest of himself, he clearly did himself no favors, his cryptic messages when agonising over signing his contract served only to annoy even his biggest supporters.

We?ll probably never know what went on behind the scenes and as Lyndon?s counter argument demonstrates, it comes down to who you choose to believe. The fact is, Moyes did eventually sign, he is our manager for the next five years and we can either get behind him, or we can continue to snipe and crticise for the remainder of his contract.

The chant of Davey Moyes was booming out from the travelling army at "The Lane" last week. A few more performances like that and it seems an awful lot of us might just be prepared to forgive the unforgivable.

We can all speculate on this one given that we really don’t know, and I do think it should make us hesitate a bit (Michael and Alan!) before we are too vigorous in our condemnations.

For what it’s worth, I tend to be more in the Lyndon camp. I think it is quite possible that Moyes was led to believe that he would be given a pretty big transfer kitty for the summer (hence the links with Moutinho et al), and that then the rug was pulled from under him (again, perhaps, because Kirkby was pulled and whatever that was linked with financially was pulled too). He was then forced to sell AJ to raise funds to strengthen his midfield. And naturally he was then led to doubt whether he really could take Everton much further with these kinds of constraints.

Now, in this scenario it is understandable that he went into a bit of a funk for a while. Unforgiveable? That’s a bit strong for me. Very unprofessional certainly. But since we started with a certain Mr Keane on this thread, I suppose everything is relative...

Michael, talking about selective memory, when was the last time you have ever believed anything coming form the OS or the club?

Oh yes the news about Emad Meteb signing, followed by small print "expect a club denial within hours"...

You stopped trusting the club a long, long time ago, (me too for that matter) so having followed all the events during the summer, I made my mind up and it was clear we did not have money to spend.

Moyes?s net spend might only be £12M but how many other PL clubs have had the benefit of selling a Rooney type? If we remove the Rooney money from income taken by the club, Moyes?s net spend is nearer to £40M. That, I think, puts a whole new spin on whether our manager has been as poor as he likes to claim.

This just proves what many of us know already. David Moyes has all the tools to take us to the next level, bar one: Funding.

Let's hope they are forthcoming during January!

John Cats,

A bit revisionist to take out the Rooney money but say we did. That would mean that over 6 years the average is around £6.6 million a year. We could afford Ronaldo?s wages with that but we couldn?t buy the diving fucker. We need perspective here, our average annual net spend doesn?t cover the wages and bonuses of the top players.

Let?s not be revisionist and then account for the loss of a £25 million rated player... what happens with the stats then? ... our average net spend doesn?t cover the wages of the majority of players in the premiership.

The "Harlem Globtrotter" football that so many allude to on here won?t win us anything. We need to be successful first before we can expand our game. Moyes has been doing that, improving the squad, fostering a team mentality, cutting away the dead wood. I bet he sees this club as being so close to a trophy that he can almost taste it. Arguably he?s kept us as "best of the rest" for 3 season?s now and we?re well placed to make that 4.

He, like us all, thought it was worth a punt in the summer to set our sights higher. I?m spectulating now but I can quite easily imagine that Moyes, when the season closed, gave the board his wish list. Top of which was Moutinho and then like every other manager, went on a holiday only to come back and find that nothing had been done. That the board were unable/unwilling to provide the funds. Understandably, he came to the conclusion that the board didn?t share his vision for the club.

I don?t think that there is anything to forgive. He?s doing a fine job and I?m happy he?s staying. I get the impression from a few contributors to this site that even if we won the Quadruple it would be put down to a few "lucky" results!

BTW - I?ve heard this site called "anti-Moyesweb" maybe you?d like to take a look at that and remember that your audience want to support Everton.

It didn't bother me that Moyes took so long to sign as I knew he would all along. He gave his word he would and his word counts for a lot. People are always trying to pick holes in everything, even when they don't have all the facts.

John Cats,

£12-15M is the total spend, not net spend!

Considering player sales his net spend is closer to £5M. which emphasises the restraints in which he has to work.

Has anyone read his latest comments regarding the resources of Villa? He basically says if Villa were in his position (aka 1 fit striker) they could afford to buy a quality replacement. Whereas we have to beg steal and borrow has-beens or freebies.