The Mail Bag
Pass presents finished off by future !
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I sit down to write this article with a really heavy heart. I have not seen play this well going forward in ages and yet I have also not seen us so poor at the back. The Villans scored one cracker (from a mistake) and then capitalised on 2 more mistakes to take all the points from us on a cold, cold evening.
We started with the 4-5-1 as expected and Arteta in the middle of the park again. No sooner had we kicked off than Arteta lost possession... Luke Young got the ball, passed it to Milner who passed it into the path of Sidwell who smashed the ball past Howard into the net with just over 30 seconds gone!!! We hadn't even started the match in our minds but we were a goal down.
Thankfully the heads didn't drop and we pressed forward with wave after wave of attack. Vic was having trouble holding the ball up but that also had something to do with Laursen and Curtis Davies climbing on his back everytime he got the ball. The Villans had a few chances of their own from corners and set pieces... Laursen coming close with a header from one of them.
A great chance for Cahill as Ossie played him through was sadly straight at Friedel. Fellaini made his presence felt with a header from a corner. I thought we had a couple of decent claims for penalties as Vic was once mounted by Laursen in the box and then Vic was bundled over by Milner with no intention of going for the ball... Ref (Tw)Atkinson said no to both. He also allowed Sidwell to kick our players at will and he didn't even get booked for all his fouls.
Cuellar then fouled Cahill. The resulting free-kick from Arteta found Lescott on the 6-yard line and he used his knee to guide it in... 1-1. We could've doubled the lead when Fellaini climbed high to head one past Friedel... only for Cuellar to clear it off the line! We went into the break level although we could've easily been up.
The second half started brightly for both teams. We had a great chance soon enough with a corner finding the head (of hair!) of Fellaini who looked certain to score from 4 yeards out but Friedel's trailing hand somehow tipped it onto the bar...
Within 10 mins of re-starting, we witnessed a terrible back pass from Jagielka which was promptly picked up by Young who slotted it past Howard to put the Villans ahead. Jags has been so solid at the back... he was probably due a mistake but sad that it was so costly. We continued to push forward and never looked like giving up. Threw on AvdM... yes AvdM and Baines for Vic and Phil Neville... and pushed Jags upfront to partner the Big Fella.
Just as injury time had started, there was a mad scramble inside the box which resulted in Cahill heading the ball goalwards and Lescott with a tremendous overhead kick scored to send me outta my seat and around the house screaming along with the missus...
I thought that they had indicated 3 mins of stoppage coz we were way past that... we lost possession in the middle of the park and again Young was there to punish us cruelly and win it for Villa. I fell to my knees and stared at the screen in horror as the game ended.
Player ratings:
Howard: Hardly did anything wrong but ended up picking the ball out of his net 3 times.
Neville: Had a fairly good game today.
Yobo: Was actually looking the less sure of the centre-backs today...
Jagielka: Solid before and after the horror back pass...still have a lot od confidence in him though.
Lescott: He is on his way back to his best ? better at the back and amazing upfront again... my MoM actually.
Osman: Knocked off the ball too easily as always but worked hard.
Pienaar: Looked lively as always and works well on the left.
Arteta: Gave the ball away twice in the middle of the park and both ended up as goals.. 1st and 3rd.... but was good going forward.
Cahill: Not nearly at his best these days but the 4-5-1 suits him better than 4-4-2
Fellaini: should've scored with the headers... would've been a different result then.
Anichebe: Was ok..but still needs to work on holding the ball up better.
AvDM....dunno who was more shocked that he played ..him or me!
Baines: Too little time to judge
I know that this may sound like sour grapes and stuff but i think the game was ruined by one Mr Atkinson and his assistants. Blatant fouls on us, handballs which could've been seen by a blind person were denied. And Fellaini gets booked for his 2nd or 3rd challenge... also where did the oodles of added time come from??? I know I may get stick for this but I curse him for this...
Tough to get up from a knock like this which takes Villa close to the Arse and us feel like the arse... a hard, hard result to digest.
Santosh Benjamin, Posted 07/12/2008 at 22:17:46
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Martin O?Neil?s praise of Young may be over the top yet he took his few chances with professional expertise. Both Osman and Pienaar between them had 3 or 4 goal scoring opportunities but they panicked. Osman by blazing over and Pienaar by flapping at the ball.
What we need is a share of the effing luck that the red shite always seem to get....
It?s amazing what people will see from 200 feet away in a stand. The referee got most things spot on... that is, if you?re willing to be objective.
That ref was an absolute disgrace. Although as opposed to the Riley / Wiley / all the others who blatantly FAVOUR the opposition, Atkinson was just completely inept.
Looking as ?objectively? as you like, he got an awful lot wrong.... Vic?s was a tackle from behind inside the box...... Sidwell?s persistent fouling.... Curtis Davis's hand was above his head, so surely ?ball-to-hand? isn?t even in the equation.... Laursen wrestling Fellaini..... and so on and so on.
He was, to put it bluntly, fucking useless.
No it wasn’t.
Davis’ hand may have been above his head...but that hardly means their was intent to handle it...in fact it was quite obvious from the replays that he knew nothing about it..
Don’t let the facts, get in the way of a good rant about the referee though!
It is Monday morning after all!
For the Arteta bashers ? he has found his best role. He dictates the play and holds well. Unfortunately he gave the ball away twice that led to goals and needs to work on his defensive side but he is miles better than he was and it allows Fellaini more freedom. Fellaini was superb yesterday and is improving game by game. Big Vic put a shift in that Yak hasn?t done all season! I?ve never felt so sick but I?m still very proud of the way we played ? If only we had Ashley Young!!!
A player who has his arms in the air, has made a "deliberate" attempt in his mind to make himself as big as possible to block the oncoming ball. He may not try to divert his hands towards the ball after they are in the air but mentally he is trying to use all parts of his body to block the ball.
If he had tried to move his hands down away from the ball you could argue he was trying to rectify his mistake and hence it would be seen as ball to hand, however Davies didn’t do anything like that and by leaving his hands in the air he should have been booked and a foul given.
A friend of mine, who is also a referee like myself, and is neutral, commented on the poor game Atkinson had. He is usually a solid ref but yesterday after the first 10 minutes he lost concentration and track of the game. For another handball in the game, I even saw he had not been following the flight of the ball but his eyes had wandered to his watch! At a crucial juncture in the game, when the ball was being fiercely contested.
Overall we were very unlucky to lose that match.
I can’t complain as before the added time was given, I sat there at 2-1 thinking anything less than 4 minutes is not on. In reality, that is what we got.
What the Fuck??!! How dare he put our club down like that! Villa are a bunch of nobodies. There history is bollocks compared to us... how would it have been a big scalp!! It would have been an expected win against a mid-table team at best. Man United is quite a big scalp Arsenal, maybe Chelsea at the moment, but Villa? Fuck off, Phil.
No offence mate but that?s nonsense.
If a player's hands are already where they are before the ball is played, then there can be absolutely no intent to hand ball... unless the player is Mystic Meg. That is a fact. It is ball-to-hand in that scenario.
You can suggest that because he wasn?t pro-active in moving his hand out of the way ? then that somehow constitutes intent... but I would offer the speed at which the ball is travelling as a perfectly acceptable rebuttal of that suggestion.
As a referee, you should know that handball has to be intentional. It wasn?t. Spot on decision.
ToffeeWeb is the greatest. Not only do all the non-football managers here firmly believe they know better than real football managers; now they are lecturing actual referees about the rules of the game.
Ric, what do you do for a living mate? I’m sure Ciaran would be happy to let you know everything you do wrong there as well.
Look, debate is fine. However when an actual referee is giving his opinion on things, I think "that’s nonsense" is a stretch. How about "since you’re a ref I’m curious, what is the actual letter of the law in this circumstance?" You know, some response which doesn’t make you sound like a condescending twat.
It?s not true that you have to move your hand to the ball for it to be intentional.
This came up a few years ago, when a lot of players (notably John Terry) were being very clever by standing with their arms outstretched when the opponent was preparing to shoot/cross. The ball was often hitting their arms a couple of feet away from their body, but nothing was being given (because it was "ball to arm").
At that point, it was agreed by referees that standing with your arms outstretched is intent ? since why else would you do it? ? and that free kicks would be given in those situations.
All this has been stated a few times by that slaphead ex-ref who appears on Sky occasionally, whatever his name is.
Now, if the arms are in a natural position then I totally agree with you. However, in that example that Ric gave the Villa player?s arm was above his head after he had landed. He was being clever by making himself big, and should have been punished.
(It?s still good defending mind ? you usually get away with it, so you can?t knock him for trying it.)
The tackle on Vic, the Villa player clearly did not get the ball but booted the back of Vic's boot trying to get to the ball. Admittedly the ref doesn?t get a replay and has to make an on the spot decision; however, when are we going to get one go our way!?!
As for the handball, well again on another day that would have been given! This intent thing is rubbish, what happened to changing the flight of the ball? Unintentional = penalty, Intentional = penalty and red card!
Answer this, how is a free kick given against Screech when their defender elbows him in the head and then wipes out his own team mate?
As for their winner was Young not offside when Howard's kick was returned? Interfering with play? What was he doing on the pitch then? It wasn?t as if running back near to the touch line! The issue over deciding who is active and who isn?t is just ridiculous.
Anyhow now I have got that off my chest I thought errors aside the lads played quite well. I even thought VDM played well when he came on.
Roll on the next away match!!
Because of course, only referees know the rules of the game!
You didn?t say that of course... because that would make you a condenscending twat.
But Lausen had his arms all over Fellaini preventing him from jumping for the ball which is a foul and should have been a penalty. About ten minutes after that incident the same thing happened outside the box to Cahill and he got a free kick! Where?s the consistency? How can it be a foul outside the box but not inside?
We had a similar incident earlier on in the season, (Stoke/West Brom, not sure who) when the defender had his hands all over Fellaini and again no penalty. Let's face it, ref?s don?t give us penalties. Last season we had to wait until the last game of the season to get out first and this season I think we?ve only had one, on the opening day and we missed that.
Last thing, how many fouls does Steve Sidwell have to comit to get a yellow card? And then how many fouls does Fellaini have to commit to get one? Answers on a postcard please...
Laursen had his arms over him, but Fellaini did swing an elbow at him.
As for the Victor tackle from behind, same thing goes, if that would have been anywhere else on the pitch that would have been given as a free kick, especially when you look back at some of the other decisions given. The tackle from Young got the man, not the ball... therefore surely it's a foul & should have been a penalty. It was a clumsy challenge by an attacking player.
As for the handball, why where Davies?s hands above his head in the first place? If Davies would have blocked a shot off the line in a similar way then it would have been seen as a deliberate block preventing a goal; just because it was in the middle of the pitch doesn?t make it a differant incident.
I am sure the argument came up last season because of a penalty that was/wasn?t given becasue of some one blocking a shot with his arms streched at the side & Andy Gray said his hands shouldn't be there, deliberate or not hand ball... In respect of the Davies incident, his hands shouldn?t be there... therefore handball... I am sure if a corner came in & Cahill's hands where above his head and it struck them and went in, in some way, the goal wouldn?t be given... therefore ? handball!
Arteta kept the ball more than any of our midfielders and dictated alot of our attacks. He had a very good game out of position.
Yes he made mistakes but those mistakes could happen to any player. Sadly it happens.
Your attacks on Pienaar, Osman and Arteta are getting worse and worse...
Not *only* referees but clearly YOU do not know the rules. As Simon Skinner pointed out your "facts" were quite wrong. Yet you didn’t let this get in the way of having a go at a referee.
Yes, in theory, it is possible for a non-ref to know the rules -- in reality you do not know the rules and should stop writing every post of yours with such intense certainty that the opinions you’ve plucked out of the air (or arse) are actually facts.
Davies, did even twice get away with handballing with his hands above his head. First time, a penalty. Second time, almost giftet them a chance.
So, he didn’t know he had his arms there, big deal. It’s not a natural place to have his arms.
As for Vic, tackle from behind. Did not get the ball.
I’d say penalty, but not as clear cut as the one from Curtis Davies.
And don?t knock Villa ("they?ve no history etc"). Last time I looked, they?ve one more European Cup than us.
As a club they are a model of the beginning-of-the-football-cash-bubble bursting-age: Community-based. Modern ground. Intelligent players. Well-financed. An eye for a tidy midfield player at £5m (Sidwell).
Villa have won more trophies than us full stop haven’t they? Abeit most of them because they were boss pre WW1.
But in the end we made some terrible errors, it wasn?t Villa?s play that beat us it was ourselves, and that defeat hurt me more than any this season. But that should inspire us for our next game to come out on fire and absolutely keep our concentration.
Perhaps you could show me where Mr skinner contradicted me? He didn?t.
Paul Olsen, Bollocks on all three counts. Anichebe was running diagonal and the opposing player wasn?t... it?s a physical impossibility for that to have been a tackle from behind! Get a pair of glasses.
The absolute persecution complex our fans have a tendency to show is embarrassing. If it?s not the BBC, the Daily Mail or referees ? it?s ducks gone barefoot or santa.
Perhaps you could show me where Mr skinner contradicted me? ]]
Sure thing troll.
Ciarán McGlone: [[ If a player’s hands are already where they are before the ball is played, then there can be absolutely no intent to hand ball ]]
Simon Skinner: [[ It?s not true that you have to move your hand to the ball for it to be intentional.
Now, if the arms are in a natural position then I totally agree with you. However, in that example that Ric gave the Villa player?s arm was above his head after he had landed. He was being clever by making himself big, and should have been punished. ]]
Ciaran: [[ Perhaps someday soon, you?ll actually add something to the debate. ]]
By "add something" do you mean get everyone whipped up into a frenzy by making absurd comments everyone disagrees with? Frankly it’s a tiresome way to behave and I’ll let you have at it by yourself. Feel free to make sweeping "factual" statements nobody agrees with and defend them beyond breaking point. I won’t contradict you anymore -- although seeing as how you seem utterly unable to discern contradiction that will be no change for you anyway.
Hand ball requires intent... I merely applied this to the Davies situation, where the hypocthetical situation brough up by Mr Skinner didn?t apply...
There is no contradiction in the context that I was applying the rule...
Perhaps you want to try adding something yourself... next time you feel the need to get all frothy mouthed...
Skinner: [[.However, in that example that Ric gave the Villa player?s arm was above his head after he had landed. ]]
How is this a hypothetical situation?
Ciaran I?ve noticed this tendency with you in another thread: you take up a factually incorrect position but refuse to admit you?re wrong because the original post you were referencing had some technicality which you decide to argue rather than the actual facts involved. It?s very annoying and it results in many, many people disagreeing with you.
You may think all the people whom disagree with you are stupid people; however, if you actually want to have a conversation with people, you should consider changing the way you "debate." Otherwise, people will constantly be saying you?re wrong (as I?ve seen everyone do in two recent threads).
If you?d rather have everyone continue having a go at you then carry on as you are.
Give it a fuckin rest. You anal trivialising and polemic collectivism is past its sell-by date.
You don?t speak for everybody, however much you continue to suggest you do... so ease up on the old self-righteous bollox.
So in other words no time soon.
I may not speak for "everybody" but in terms of TW you have far more people disagreeing with you on this thread (and the other one I referenced) and your "debating" tactic both times was the same semantic nonsense where you argued someone?s written mistakes rather than the actual reality of the situation.
Anyway, I?m done feeding the troll. I?ll let you have the last word.
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1 Posted 08/12/2008 at 09:21:58
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On this occasion, clearly for all to see, the best side lost. It was good, apart from the odd silly mistake, to see most of the boys firing on all cylinders finally. It is a real shame that we have no money to buy in Jan ? we are probably three quality players from within touching distance of the top four ? sadly this is going to take about £30m to bridge.