I have to admit, I'm torn. The smart money tells me (and anyone else who wants to see us buck the simplistic money rationale) that you just can't do it unless you shell out millions. Yet Moyes took on the job all those years ago with a brave conviction that he could do it... and he has demonstrated that by doing it to an extent a number of times over the last 6½ years.

But what he has also demonstrated is a panoply of flaws that inevitably combine to drag him ? and the team, and the hopeful expectations of the fans ? back down to a "reality" in which we are no longer "overachieving" or "punching above our weight" ? exemplified only too well by the dreadful sequence of events since the Fiorentina loss, throughout a horrible summer of transfer nonsense, and the spurned opportunity to really kick on this season.

The contrasts you highlight might be a marvel to those who buy in to the money rationale. But anyone who knows that achieving success in football is more about a series of skills Moyes has demonstrated on occasions will not be marveling when they recognize how far short he has fallen from what he could have achieved with this team if he'd stayed on task... if he had just a fraction of the adventurous about him ? not just the desire to win but the belief and conviction that we will win, instilled into everything he and his players do.

That is not there with Moyes, and frankly I've given up any faint hope I had that one day it would be there. Instead, it's the mistaken policy that success comes from stopping the other side from scoring. That is only part of the story. It works great if you can steal a 1-0 win away from home against (supposedly) the richest club in the world. It doesn't work so great when your defender scores two great goals but stupid mistakes gift three to the opposition.

And therein lies the conundrum. The future is impossible to predict with certainty; we just have to wait and see.... next up is Chelsea who were lucky not to lose to West Ham, their away record is shit hot but Scolari is new to this league and new to Goodison. Just maybe, next up, Davie’s blue boys will bring down the Chelski Goliath under Goodison floodlights on next Monday night...here’s hoping anyway. COYB!

I don’t understand this theory about "punching about your weight".

People take this view simply by looking at transfer money spent each summer. However Arsenal spend next to nothing, and instead we judge them on the quality of their players! They are never said to be punching above their weight!

If people judged squads on their talent and potential we are rightly seen as a Top 6 side.

In reality, I suspect David Moyes truly believes he IS the best manager in the world. After all, his chairman never tires of telling him he is and pays him enough money to support the theory!

It also depends if you are happy finishing 5th in the league. I mean where is the glory in that? In no other job would that be considered a success. Ok we qualify for Europe but when we had a chance in the Champions League, he blew it by not strengthening. Last season, Moyes blew our chance of the Uefa cup with a scared display in Florence and this season again we have gone tamely out of Europe because we didn't get new players ? and he had £15 million to spend. And no sign of any domestic silverware. So what exactly has he done to justify this huge amount of money he is costing us? Fuck all.

It’s amazing how injuries can force the manager into playing a more effective team. Unlike Yakubu, Cahill is willing to run and work all game and can score. The manager should have been playing Castillo weeks ago and now gets praised for bringing him in. And of course Arteta is now playing were he should have been playing for the last two years. Incredible.

I?m as happy as anyone that we won yesterday but the reality is that every time we?ve had an opportunity to kick on and progress, we?ve ended up taking a step backwards. Some define Moyes?s reign as a success but what is the point in finishing 4th if you don?t capitalise on it? What was the point in finishing 5th last season if we don?t even get to the group stages of this year?s Uefa Cup?

Moyes?s inability to get us into those group stages of the Champions League by not buying the right players was as criminal as Kenwright?s fuck up on the Kings Dock. So Matthew on the contrary, Moyes?s inablity in the transfer market has cost us very very dear.

Face it: Top 4... never. After next season, top 5 [MCFC money]... never again. I don't expect it because it?s not a level playing field. What I want is to see us playing good football, that's number 1. Moyes has done well, he has his limitations but as a club so do we. Just watch in 5 years or so, the top 5 in England will be the top 5 in Europe.

Moyes has spent £76.4M (including loan fees), sales £52M. Net spend from March 2002 to January 16, 2008 ? £24.4M (or just over £4M a year). So I happen to think he?s done a pretty decent job on a small transfer budget. I agree with some of the points made about our lack of adventure and guess Moyes like ourselves has been left feeling a little brow-beaten and let down.

All I ever hear is how we?ve broken our transfer record four times and how we?ve done it again this year, shelling out £15M for Fellaini. I point out that we sold McFadden and Johnson and all I get back from some quarters is "interest payments" and how I know fuck all about the running of a football club. Well maybe I don't and to be honest I don't really want to know, but I can count and I do know that a net spend of £4M a year is a pittance by current Premier League standards.

Now, if Mr Rooney Snr had stayed in the Dog and Gun for a few more jars one fateful night and Wayne Rooney had never been born, the figures may have looked something like this: Moyes, spent £46.6M; sales £22M. Still a net spend of £4M per year but a shortfall of £30M worth of talent. In other words the same squad as now but minus Yakubu, Howard, Arteta, Lescott, Cahill and Baines. Footballers like Rooney come through the ranks once in a lifetime and Bill of the Boys Pen is a very lucky man. He?d never have survived without the Rooney money and, with Bill in charge, neither might Everton. Something which is often overlooked.

Bill just can't cut the mustard and one wonders where the next £4M is going to come from. Bill wont admit defeat though. Oh no he?ll move us to Kirkby before he?d do that.

Moyes ain't perfect but, before any of you slag him off, have a little game of Football Manager with yourself and plan your year's spending with just the £4m he may or may not get this year. KENWRIGHT OUT ? THE SOONER THE BETTER. HOPEFULLY BEFORE KIRKBY.

Remember, without the Rooney money, he?d have gone long ago. Either that or we would be in the Championship or worse. We can sit on our arses and let him murder Everton or we can fight back now. So against Chelsea how about some...KENWRIGHT OUT! KENWRIGHT OUT!! KENWRIGHT OUT!!!

Moyeses, for want of a better word, positives, get us, have got us, from bottom quarter of the table into the next to top quarter.

His, again for want of a better word, minuses are what stop us from getting into the top quarter of the table.... thats about it, get used to it..

Dave Johnson, I agree with what you say, wouldn?t be surprised if next £4m comes from the sale of Baines. As for BK, shouting "BK out" will not do anything positive. What would you rather have, some foreign bloke who knows nowt about us, and who would take the Kirkby option or a ground share and fill the team with mercenaries? Or a bloke who first and foremost is a fan?

I know plenty of Chelski fans who aren?t happy with being owned by some Russian bloke who, WHEN he goes, will leave them up shit creek.

Iain, your comment suggests that while other clubs are filled with mercenaries, you feel we have a team of true Evertonians who play for the love of the club. If only that were true. We might have a couple but the only true Evertonians at Goodison are those sitting in the stands.

"Yesterday?s result was not a one-off, we seem to consistently get results against the likes of Man City, Tottenham and Newcastle."

Would that be the same Newcastle that we were 2-0 up against at home and scraped by with a 2-2 draw?The only consistency that shows is our ability to throw the game away like against Villa. And what did you make of our ?consistency? away to Stoke?

Moyes is a good manager in the Curbishley, Allardyce mould. He will constantly see us safe and top halfish. Given big money to spend, I suspect he would be found truly wanting and he is never likely to manage ?a big club? other than perhaps Celtic. In our present financial situation, he is the ideal man for Everton and will continue to see us in safe waters. Just expect no more.

I have given Moyes stick in the past and will surely do so again in the future. However, the reality is that he is the best manager we could ever hope to have in our present circumstances. The result on Saturday proved to me that he has learnt a huge amount over the last few years and the away form indicates that the Uefa Cup was not a waste of time after all ? his tactics on away grounds are getting better and better.

At home, I thought we were so, so unlucky against Villa and I certainly believe that we are still one of the top six sides in the Country. My fear is that one or two of our better players will now be picked off and heads will be turned ? if not in January then in the summer, due to our inability to add quality to the squad, due to lack of funds. The likes of City will be able to make offers for our players that will be too attractive to the administrators to turn down.

Good post Matthew, accurate & fair but, as you & Michael highlight, we still face a double-edged sword with Moyes.

Michael?s pointing out of Moyes?s defensive inclinations are broadly accurate and hard to take sometimes, kind of in the "better to live 1 year as a tiger than 100 years as a sheep" kind of philosophy. We are left with something of a what-if. That is not to deride what he HAS achieved in 6 years. Too many fans have too short memories about how we used to aspire to mid-table under Walter and his predecessors.

Moyes deserves a large element of praise. But I resent what he did from end of last season and how it truly screwed up our preparations for this sesson and, frankly, most of the first 10 games. His miserable & negative demeanour & dithering on his (ridiculously large) contract left a bitter taste in the mouth. It also left the squad confused & de-motivated.

All that said, your observations are good ones. We do punch above our weight from an investment perspective and, on the basis that every manager has hits & misses in the transfer market (just ask Beneathus), Moyes?s record is as good as if not better than anybody?s.

As for Eric Myles:

Look again at what you wrote and reflect on the nonsense of it. We have won at Spurs (who have invested about £250m in 5 years) on the last 3 occasions. We usually beat and end up much higher than Newcastle (who have also spent lord knows how much more money than we have, and have the revenue from 52,000 sell-outs every week). We have also just won at Man City (again) and also finish above them in the table.

So what, precisely, are you trying to say? The 2-2 with Newcastle was an overhang from our crap early season form for reasons that most of us acknowledge. The Villa result was an aberration and in no way reflected the game. Everton, aside from 2 unfortunate errors, played excellently (as acknowledged by fans & neutrals alike).

And, erm, we won at Stoke too, whilst both Villa and Arsenal lost there.

So again Eric, what exactly is your point?

Clive Rogers - I?ve no wish to become a Moyes apologist, because I?m not. But I can?t stand to read something which is just plain wrong.

To suggest that "Moyes is a good manager in the Curbishley,Allardyce mould. He will constantly see us safe and top halfish" is kind of overlooking what?s happened don?t you think?

To refresh your memory, in 4 of the last 5 seasons we have finished 7th, 4th, 6th & 5th. Not wishing to be pedantic, but to categorise 3 seasons of European competition (& one season of breaking the Sky 4 cartel) as safe and top-halfish is nonsense.

He may or may not be the best we can get. Frankly, at £3.5m a year and looking at who is apparently interested in the Sunderland job, it?s pure hypothesis to think no-one of any substance would look at Everton.

Moyes has limitations, sometimes infuriatingly so, but don?t dismiss the transformation in Everton under his stewardship. We are not "safe" or "top-halfish", we are currently viewed as top-6 and vying for best of the rest with Villa. Despite my reservations with Moyes, those achievements cannot be denied.

On reflection I?m sure you?ll agree.

"Moyes is a good manager in the Curbishley, Allardyce mould. He will constantly see us safe and top halfish. Given big money to spend, I suspect he would be found truly wanting and he is never likely to manage ?a big club? other than perhaps Celtic."
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Clive Rogers, how do you know this? Moyes sometimes infuriates the hell out of me. The negative approach against the big three doesen't exactly pay dividends but really with £4m per year to work with what do you expect? Maybe Ronaldo on the flank and Messi up front? Put it another way. You're the manager, right: what you gonna do this January with your £4m to improve things?

Everton do frustrate me on the pitch and I know Moyes plays a part in this. The semi-finals against Chelsea last year are the best examples I can think of but give him a sow?s ear to work with and what do you expect? Neither Preston or Everton have ever given him the funds to test your theory.

DM may never viewed in the same light again after his drama queen antics over his contract.

At first I thought this wasn't such a bad thing, no longer do we hear the inane "IMWT" phrase; however, that's been replaced by the equally inane "he?s taken us as far as he can" cry...

Moyes did fuck about over his contract, but to put this down as the main reason for the sluggish start is nonsense. We had the sort of injury list that would have halted any team in the world, we had to play senior players out of position to accommodate the kids. A richer team would merely have bought their way out of trouble; we couldn't.

The people who were calling for Moyes to be sacked TWO WEEKS ago are now doing an about turn and calling his leadership "double edged". I wonder what they?ll be saying in a fortnight?

Alan Kirwin,
I think it?s fair enough to describe David Moyes as a manager in the Curbishley, Allardyce mould. Both of them did fine jobs in taking unfashionable clubs to unaccustomed elevated positions. Both seem good motivators and have adjusted their syle of play to fit their resources. DM has done the same.

However, I believe that Everton are not an unfashionable club and, rightly or wrongly, we expect more. It seems to me that, with the likely exception of Man City, the days of huge spending are over for a while. Recent results suggest that, with a positive attitude, success is achievable against the Sky four.

David Moyes has never been tested by having a fortune to spend. My view is that his style and temperament make him unsuited for handling big name players who lack his work ethic. The same applies to Mark Hughes who can spend all the money in the world but won?t win a thing.

David vs Goliath should suit DM perfectly. He?s got a great contract with a built-in excuse for under-achievement; but what is under-achievement for Everton?

Andy, my correction was more to do with the analysis that we are simply "safe" & "top halfish" with Moyes. Despite my own reservations about Moyes, such a description is dismissive and incorrect. When he took over we were nowhere. He has undoubtedly done well for the club, but everyone has their limits.

Dave Wilson - A mis-reading of what was said previously and now. Nothing has changed and to put you out of your misery, I still do not regard Moyes as the man to lead Everton on, i.e. manouvre us into serious challengers at the top of the league. I also still resent his behaviour from May to September regarding contract, transfers etc etc. His behaviour was a major factor in the uncertainty and poor team and individual performances. Moyes has even admitted this himself, so I’m afraid your devotion is misplaced.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

Alan

I don't believe your opinion of Moyes is a million miles from my own, I posted many times that his offer should be withdrawn during the summer and a replacement brought in ? hardly devotion! However, he?s our manager and he?s here for the forseeable, I?ve just figured life is an awful lot less complicated if I give him my full support.

You must experience all sorts of of contradictory emotions every time we play. On one hand, you want Moyes to fall on his face and justify the non-stop battering you give him; on the other hand, as an obviously passionate blue, you will be desperate for the team to win... something has to give, fella.

Do a bit of soul searching, ask yourself this, when we were forced to play promising youngsters even though they were patently not ready, do you really believe any manager, let alone DM could have won those games we lost?

Also, having watched Villa last week, are you seriously suggesting we can't catch them?