The Mail Bag
Obstructed views at Kirkby?
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Standing up in front of your seat in lower and single end tiers during anything that slightly resembles an exciting moment has been a common action since stadia first became all-seater. This action, which is perfectly within stadium rules, is one that will see fans purposely go (or not go) to a particular stand because they believe it improves the atmosphere.
Now considering the regular occurence of this practice I thought I'd see the impact that it would have on the design of the new stadium. It took only a matter of seconds to see a huge potential flaw in the design. If you look at this picture of the proposed new stadium you can actually see how fans standing up at the back of the lower tier will block the view of what I presume will be the corporate customers behind the glass.
Is it really acceptable to say to the corporate clients that they have to stand up to see at the slightest chance of a break by a team they may not really care about? What about the fans who enjoy standing at moments of excitement? How would they feel standing up with their Managing Director at work directly behind them thus replicating the hierachical structure of society in the very place ordinary fans want to escape from on a Saturday afternoon? The potential for friction and alienation of a number of fans in what is already a sensitive move could well be the final straw for those who do give the new stadium a chance.
So what elso could be behind that glass if not executive boxes? Offices that will be unoccupied during a match? A place for ordinary fans to watch the match while going for a pie? Or will they be unoccupied while executive are in the normal seats in front, and then at half time they retreat to the boxes to watch the half time golden goal from?
Derek Turnbull, Posted 14/12/2008 at 09:21:06
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If there’s a mistake to be made Everton will make it!
A lot of architects are out of touch with how fans act at the match, they’ll watch the match next to the directors, while all politely sitting they’ll design the stadium to calculations that don’t take into considerations such as standing.
There is call for a standing section (standing in front of your seat) at Goodison. Safety rules out standing in upper tiers, and also in stands steeper than 25 degrees.
Again, apply this to the Kirkby model. We’ve already seen that this can’t be done in the lower tier, but safety rules out this in an upper tier, and for good measure Everton have made the Upper tier 34 degrees, close to the Top Balc!
Basicly that rules out any standing, and therefore any decent atmosphere, at Kirkby. They can design the fancy roof all they want but the conditions have to be right to get the atmosphere in the first place
Wasn't it James, a Mancunian band that had a hit single entitled "Sit down"? Well yesterday at the City of Manchester Stadium, there were fights breaking out at the away end in the lower tier over some people's refusal to sit down.
I'm torn between consideration for fellow Evertonians behind me and a need to maximise my view of the play - particularly when you're as low down as we were yesterday.
It's not an easy subject but I'm not happy at fellow blues beating the shit out of each other because of it!
Anyone else got a view on this? Seems to be happening at more and more away games.
If people don?t like standing they should stick to the home games.
Away from home, there’s no segregation between fans who wish to sit, and fans who wish to stand so there’s bound to be arguments, but there’s no reason why there cant be areas where fans can stand at home.
The problem is that if we move to Kirkby then there wont be anywhere for home fans to stand.
Out of the two places where there can be standing the first lower tier, will block the corporates views, the second the upper, is a safety risk.
The new stadium is outdated, it does not cater for the needs of the fan.
If they are in the lower tier they will obscure the view of the corporates.
If they go in the upper tier it is a safety issue to stand up there.
This will only cause alienation to a section of our fanbase.
I think the prawn sandwich brigade like to partake of the crowd atmosphere, I?ve seen it at a few other grounds. But they are only at the back of the two side stands along with the hospitality seats.
The two end stands don?t have any hospitality/corporate. One end stand is full of club offices on that floor (the CEO office overlooks the pitch).
While the other end stand has the space as "future fit out", whatever that means, maybe lounges/boxes?
If they are not being occupied during a match then there is absolutely no point in them being situated where they are. They should be within the stadium.
If we take one end as an office and the future fit out as one day being boxes with the corporates to sit in front then the design is even more shocking then I first thought.
With the appalling decision to house the away fans in one of the Ends then I would suspect that this would be the end with the offices in surely?
If the future fit out did have corporates on the last couple of rows and they are sitting directly behind the ?Gwladys Street Boys? then is this really a good idea? Talk about the potential for friction and alienation!
I spent some time in a corporate box watching a cricket one-day match at the Telstra Dome in Melbourne and the idea of the boxes was that you had a choice of the seating out front or standing at the glass front and watch from there if you went and got a drink. Also they maybe inside at half time and the boxes being where they are allow them to see the pitch for any half-time entertainment.
The article does not in anyway discuss the pros or cons of the location. To often this opinion on the design is determined by whether people want to move or not. That?s ridiculous, a big mistake is a big mistake.
Google "Rhein Energie Stadion" for more pictures and details.
You're correct, the Away end is the one with the office overlooking them (well half the lower tier, the rest if for home fans), it also has the stadium control box and a hospitality lounge just for away fans who want to pay extra (there?s also a 7-cell police station underneath!!).
Agree on the future fit out in the other end (the likely stand for the Glawdys St enders), I think it would be best to be a huge bar/drinking area to build atmosphere before the game, rather than more boxes, but there's a lot of bars in the stands already.
I?m no expert on this but it seems that on the Nord Tribune Stand half of the stand is for ?standing? fans and half is for ?seated? fans. Now there appears to be some sort of boxes running behind both. If there are any issues with this I have no doubt that qualifieed engineers will have looked into, and addressed these issues before stadium construction.
I certainly see no cause for concern based on an artists impression of a man creating an obstructed view (NB: ? This is not a technical drawing). Perhaps if these were scale drawings the ?fans? in question may be 11 ft tall).
For God?s sake. I can?t believe people are using this as a source of genuine concern over the Kirkby stadium. If we?re going to start basing our opinions on the artist?s impressions then we can be assured that the stadium will be full all the time and that the sun always shines in Kirkby.
I?d be more worried over the lack of any audited prospective financial information to back the claims that a move to Kirkby is essential for the club?s survival.
This whole post is ill-conceived codswallop.
The way standing works at a match, they?d be far better off scrapping it in the Gwladys Street completely and just have a large single tier there instead. All that will happen then is if you do have the vociferous fans in front of the glass then there is no acoustics for them. If they go in the upper tier then how are they going to get standing up there? The standing starts from the front row pitch level.
I wonder what their thinking is in putting the away fans in the Park End? Are they not happy with support behind both goals then? Home fans above the away fans too?
Easy as that.
1) Those in the corporate boxes will probably be eating caviar and talking business more than they will watch the match; and.......
2) If they do miss any action they can just look at a replay on a 40-inch plasma screen which will be in the "corporate box".
The Sydney Olympic stadium has theirs where the equivalent of the Leitch criss-crosses are on Bullens and Gwladys St. The lower tier obviously of a similar style to Bullens (only modern) in the way that it carries on underneath the upper tier. So yes that would be an idea.
http://www.stadiumguide.com/crokepark3.jpg
Chelsea?s main stand is similar and I think it looks better too.
In addition, ours would only have one level of the executive boxes rather than the two they have. Which will mean that the main upper tier and lower tier are closer together allowing the songs to transfer easier from one to another.
Also as the lower tier goes underneath the next tier. Then it would be a good idea to put some decent acoustics at the bottom of that next tier.
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1 Posted 14/12/2008 at 18:46:03
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There was a hell of a lot of friction among fellow blues at the City of Manchester stadium yesterday because of this.
You’re right about the design. It has to be right. If you’re going to have Corporate hospitality, you can’t have obstructed views. But this is just an artist’s impression surely? They couldn’t make such an obvious mistake, surely? What am I saying, of course they could!