The Mail Bag
Baines and the January window
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According to some reports, Joe Kinnear has already made a bid for Bainsey for January. I really hope that Moysie doesn't get rid of Leighton as I think he is a really talented fullback who has a lot to offer Everton. I do however think that Leighton will want to move on; despite Lescott's form, I think he has been criminally undervalued here at everton for 18 months.
Question is, do other Evertonians think that he should be sacrificed to perhaps free funds for a striker in January? It could be argued that he is the only dispensible member of our small squad who would command anything close to a substantial transfer fee.
Robert Pierpoint, Posted 14/12/2008 at 15:41:55
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Lescott is not a left back and, IMHO, never will be. He has qualities and (when he’s up for it) is an excellent player for us. However I think he might be even more effective on left of midfield where his strength & attacking instincts could be more valuable, whilst his occasional lapses wouldn;t do as much damage.
Baines is a left back. He has pace, skill, can harass & tackle and gives the team width & invention. His pace is particularly important when playing counter attack (e.g. away from home).
Don’t understand Moyes on Baines. He should be in the team. How the hell he didn’t get the run he so wants and needs after Lescott’s early season form is just bewildering. Lescott was so far off course that he should have been dropped. Cant’t imagine how Baines must have felt then.
Would hate LB to go, but would fully understand why he might want to. One of Moyes stranger tactical choices, and there have been a few.
Baines is a left back. He has pace, skill, can harass & tackle and gives the team width & invention. His pace is particularly important when playing counter attack (e.g. away from home).
Don’t understand Moyes on Baines. He should be in the team. How the hell he didn’t get the run he so wants and needs after Lescott’s early season form is just bewildering. Lescott was so far off course that he should have been dropped. Cant’t imagine how Baines must have felt then.
Would hate LB to go, but would fully understand why he might want to. One of Moyes stranger tactical choices, and there have been a few.
I suppose to be fair to Moyes it is a very tough decision. I for one wouldn?t want to drop Neville, far from it I think he has been one of our best and most consistent performers this season. Indeed, when the chips are down he has at least attempted to stand up and be counted.
However, I just believe that Baines gives us the option of playing a different, more attacking and expansive type of play, particularly at home. Although I think that Lescott?s goalscoring is obviously extremely valuable ? indeed, I don?t think any of the other defenders will get close to his tally for the season ? his forward and wing play for me is often wayward and clumsy at times.
I do believe there could be truth in the story about Newcastle United though, and like I say would understand Baines feeling that he has a better chance of progression up there. I also have a bad feeling that (in the same way as AJ in the summer) Moyes could be happy to sacrifice Baines, due to the lack of strength up front and our chronic absence of any types of funds.
However, I just believe that Baines gives us the option of playing a different, more attacking and expansive type of play, particularly at home. Although I think that Lescott?s goalscoring is obviously extremely valuable ? indeed, I don?t think any of the other defenders will get close to his tally for the season ? his forward and wing play for me is often wayward and clumsy at times.
I do believe there could be truth in the story about Newcastle United though, and like I say would understand Baines feeling that he has a better chance of progression up there. I also have a bad feeling that (in the same way as AJ in the summer) Moyes could be happy to sacrifice Baines, due to the lack of strength up front and our chronic absence of any types of funds.
How much would we get for Tony Hibbert ? or is that a stupid question?
Dunnow why the fuck Moyes bought Baines!!
I think that the truth is that Moyes does like Baines as an attacking left back, but isn’t willing to risk him without a holding midfielder. He said as much last season and we haven’t bought anyone that would change that.
The problem is that the only way we can raise any money to buy a holding midfielder is...to sell Baines. Nobody else outside of out first XI would command any sort of fee.
If Baines doesn’t go, it’s hard to see any sort of transfer activity for us in January. None of our first XI as individuals are likely to attract interest from the big 4 with the possible exception of Lescott; and with Man Utd and Chelsea with no real need of a centre back and Liverpool just a no go, that only leaves Arsenal.
Now, Lescott is a centre back who can play left back, comfortable of the ball, like to get forward and score goals and (when he gets his form back) solid at the back. He’s exactly William Gallas without the attitude problem.
Would Wenger be willing to bid a sum that we couldn’t refuse for Lescott? And as much as we’d hate to lose him, if it bought a holding midfielder AND a speedy winger both of proven quality, would you take it?
The problem is that the only way we can raise any money to buy a holding midfielder is...to sell Baines. Nobody else outside of out first XI would command any sort of fee.
If Baines doesn’t go, it’s hard to see any sort of transfer activity for us in January. None of our first XI as individuals are likely to attract interest from the big 4 with the possible exception of Lescott; and with Man Utd and Chelsea with no real need of a centre back and Liverpool just a no go, that only leaves Arsenal.
Now, Lescott is a centre back who can play left back, comfortable of the ball, like to get forward and score goals and (when he gets his form back) solid at the back. He’s exactly William Gallas without the attitude problem.
Would Wenger be willing to bid a sum that we couldn’t refuse for Lescott? And as much as we’d hate to lose him, if it bought a holding midfielder AND a speedy winger both of proven quality, would you take it?
"Why on earth did Moyes sign Baines?" The main reason, or should I say excuse, made for Moyes not using Baines, is because Baines is too small. Forgive me if I am wrong but if upon meeting Leighton, Moyes could not decipherer that Baines was vertically challenged, maybe when he was given a medical and measured Moyes would've discovered he was not 6 foot or 1.8m plus. I for one am disgusted, it is reminiscint of a certain a Per Krøldrop. My first concern was with Moyes?s scouting of players, now I am concerned that he cannot tell the difference between someone tall and small.
The main questions I believe that should be asked are:
1. How much of a loss will we have to take on Baines?
2. If Lescott was moved to centre back, would he score less?
3. Can we afford to have players, who will not be played?
4. Why was he signed?
I have to agree that Lescott's final balls in the box are poor. Let us face facts, he is not a left back and his goals come from set pieces, much like most centre backs.
Sell Lescott for £10M ? buy Upson for £6M as replacement. Use Baines as LB. Leaving £4M for a new striker. Problem solved.
Moyes clearly doesn’t rate Baines. If he couldn’t get in the team ahead of Lescott earlier in the season, when Lescott was well below par, he never will. So he might as well cash in on him if he’s not going to play him.
Baines is too small not just in height but overall stature - he’s tiny. Same as Hibbert, he’s caught out by long balls or crosses to the back stick. If we can recoup the £6 million we paid for him then sell. Baines is a dispensable asset who will raise some much needed funds.
It just takes one injury to either Yobo, Jags or Lescott, and we will ultimately need Baines in the squad.
If Moyes lets Baines go (which I hope he doesn’t), then we are in deep shit, cause Nuno is also out for long term.
Whatever happened to Pistone?
If Moyes lets Baines go (which I hope he doesn’t), then we are in deep shit, cause Nuno is also out for long term.
Whatever happened to Pistone?
Leighton Baines is a very good footballer - he is very close to Tony Hibbert in height and weight, they are both admirable in terms of pace and commitment in defence. Baines has more skill on the ball and more potential to build and support an attack, like Neville is now doing well. If Lescott couldn’t play on the left, Baines would be our first choice left back, and DM would have to make the hard decision between Joe, Jag and Joleon. As it is, Baines has to sit and watch and wait. I agree with Kevin - an injury to a centre back and he is straight in.
For sale in January? Anyone trying to sell a house will tell you there aren’t many buyers out there. Its bargain basement time, and we may get a loan player or two. If we can afford Leighton’s wages, he will still be with us in February.
Incidentally - I would be very happy to see Baines at left back, and Joleon Lescott up front at centre forward. But that’s hardly my decision to make.
For sale in January? Anyone trying to sell a house will tell you there aren’t many buyers out there. Its bargain basement time, and we may get a loan player or two. If we can afford Leighton’s wages, he will still be with us in February.
Incidentally - I would be very happy to see Baines at left back, and Joleon Lescott up front at centre forward. But that’s hardly my decision to make.
If we need to generate funds in the transfer window it does appear to be between Baines and Lescott as to who goes.
I think it is clear to everybody who Moyes would choose. If it was me, I would sell Lescott as he is not comfortable at left back. We would get at least £10 million and we could always move Rodwell back to defence if either Yobo or Jagielka picked up a knock.
Ideally neither should be sold as the squad is not big enough but needs must I guess.
I think it is clear to everybody who Moyes would choose. If it was me, I would sell Lescott as he is not comfortable at left back. We would get at least £10 million and we could always move Rodwell back to defence if either Yobo or Jagielka picked up a knock.
Ideally neither should be sold as the squad is not big enough but needs must I guess.
Neville can play LB and Hibs RB if called on. We need a striker. Anyone remember the striker crisis in Feb 2008? Lescott should NOT be played as striker! It’s an entired different discipline to FM!!!!
Err are you people stupid?
Baines is a left back. Neville is a right back.
Baines is a left back. Neville is a right back.
We all know Joleon?s form has been wayward this season but DM kept him in the team hoping he would play through it. It seems he is now getting back to the player we know has been our best for 2 years. The reported £10m is undervaluing him, a 26-year-old England international versatile defender who scores goals and is under contract until 2012!
I don't think Bainsey could have coped with SWP as well as Lescott did on Saturday, Bainsey is unhappy he?s not playing but we know how injuries and suspensions can affect our squad, last season's run-in proved that. Faddy would have been a great replacement for TC or Mikel when they were unavailable. IMO, we shouldn?t think about selling anyone, DM will pull another "Rabbit out of the hat".
Baines is a crap defender. If anyone is stupid enough to want to buy him then let's get rid.
What is it with people on here sometimes? Sell one of our best players, Lescott? This is the same crap reasoning as those who think we should sell Cahill, I bet you’re glad we haven’t now! Lescott is a massive asset to Everton and was our player of the season last season and although his form’s been a little wobbly at the start of this season his goals are so crucial.
Anyone suggesting we should sell Lescott and play Baines needs to watch another sport because you obviously don’t understand football.
Anyone suggesting we should sell Lescott and play Baines needs to watch another sport because you obviously don’t understand football.
I?d Swap him for Owen, but I wouldn't otherwise get rid. He may not be the greatest player but we?ve never had strength in numbers...
I really hope we don?t lose Leighton in January, he is a quality left back and could even do a job on the wing, I mean look at his performance against Newcastle. He created the 1st goal and won the penalty for the second, also got man of the match in front of Capello, that?s good handling of pressure I think.
If Moyes wants to stick to playing a centre-half at left-back to just keep the other happy then, even though he looks dodgy there this season, we have to accept Davey?s choice. So why not play Bainesy left wing, natuarally left footed with a cracking cross to back him up?
If Moyes wants to stick to playing a centre-half at left-back to just keep the other happy then, even though he looks dodgy there this season, we have to accept Davey?s choice. So why not play Bainesy left wing, natuarally left footed with a cracking cross to back him up?
We at Everton haven?t had any out & out attacking wingers since Kanchelskis and that's what we miss, people who get out wide and open up defences. We have Baines who could fly down the left and Van der Meyde who when fit will be a very very good player ? you don?t play for Ajax & Inter for no reason. He showed against Villa what he can do, he came on and ran at the full back and beat him every time, so let's change our style of play (as teams know it off by heart now & defend against really well) and mix it up a bit. Look at United & Chelsea, they play with wingers and they have dominanted the league for the past 5 years.
Come On Moyesy, Give these guys a chance. As a footballer myself I hate being on the bench and when I get my chance I play 100% to keep my place. These guys will give everything if you have faith in them.
Sell Lescott?! What a joke. How about drop Yobo, move Lescott into his natural position, put Baines left back. Problem solved. Sell Lescott? Shocking!
Moyes has outdone himself with this one. This time the player he bought is actually quality... and what does Moyes do? ? play someone else out of position in his place.
Astounding!
Astounding!
How many games have we won with Baines in the team this season? (1) How many clean sheets has a defence with Baines in kept this season? (0). Not just Baines's fault but a back 4 of Neville, Yobo, Jagielka and Lescott does seem to be much more resilient.
Jay,
Do you not feel a little dishonest offering those stats without some qualification or context?
How about this one - with Baines in the team we’ve only conceded 3 goals - without him we’ve conceded 22.
Absurdity eh!
Do you not feel a little dishonest offering those stats without some qualification or context?
How about this one - with Baines in the team we’ve only conceded 3 goals - without him we’ve conceded 22.
Absurdity eh!
I?ve always rated Baines and think Moyes has treated him like shit the same as Vaughany. Baines has done nothing to reaffirm Moyes's belief that he ain't up to the job due to lack of confidence when getting the odd 3 minutes. I?d like to see Baines play left mid with the current team and play Osman behind Cahill until we get our strikers back.
How much do we seriously think we will get for Baines? Paid £5 million when highly rated. I can see us making a loss. Anything less than £6 million buys you shit for a striker these days!
How much do we seriously think we will get for Baines? Paid £5 million when highly rated. I can see us making a loss. Anything less than £6 million buys you shit for a striker these days!
I think Moyes brought in Jags as cover for Yobo and Lescott with Bainsey playing at leftback. The form of Jags has made it very hard to leave him out and he’s obvioulsy worried about leaving Lescott out and then him demanding a move. Why not put Baines left wing for some needed natural width and switch Pienaar out right
I would not mind if we cashed in on Baines to be honest; he ain't a bad player though, and the likes of Ashley Cole and Clichy show that height is not a requirement for a full back.
I think he just isn?t cutting it in trainging and is probably our 5th best defender at best! Which is why he is on the bench most of the time. Let?s face it, we wouldn?t miss him!
I think he just isn?t cutting it in trainging and is probably our 5th best defender at best! Which is why he is on the bench most of the time. Let?s face it, we wouldn?t miss him!
Baines is not a left winger... end of! He?s a left back. Yes, he?s got a good left foot but he hasn?t got the skill to be a winger, or the creativity either. I do agree though, he?s a very good left back going forward.
At the moment, I wouldn?t change the team... the only thing I could suggest is drop Yobo, shift Lescott in the middle and play Baines left back. But then somebody would post a thread in saying Yobo should be playing!
I?m looking forward to see what Jacobsen does to challenge Neville playing right back to be honest.. Jacobsen is apparently the same sort of player to Baines.
At the moment, I wouldn?t change the team... the only thing I could suggest is drop Yobo, shift Lescott in the middle and play Baines left back. But then somebody would post a thread in saying Yobo should be playing!
I?m looking forward to see what Jacobsen does to challenge Neville playing right back to be honest.. Jacobsen is apparently the same sort of player to Baines.
Baines is an average full-back with a good cross. That’s it.
..and Lescott is an average full back without a good cross. hmmmm.
Lescott is an average full back who scores more than his fair share of important goals for Everton.
If Leighton Baines was given a decent run in the side (at left back) he would prove himself to be a top class full-back with a decent cross. Confidence is such a huge part of being a footballer and the confidence of Baines, Castillo and Turner must be at a low ebb.
The signing of Nash has effectively told Turner and Ruddy that the coach thinks they?re crap. Moyes has his favourites and if you are not one of them then look for a new club.
Billy, Lescott is an average full-back who sometimes remembers that he is actually a top class centre-half and scores the goals that a great centre-back often will.
Andy, Surely that depends on how Moyes and the coaching staff manage the morale of those players you mention and the reasons he gives them for leaving them out.
The thing is, if he?s not playing well enough to displace the two current centre-backs and you want his goals in the team, then it?s a case of "Sorry Leighton, your chance will come"...
If we sold Baines, Lescott would get injured the next day... guaranteed!
Have any of you people ever heard of a squad? Baines is a great player, yes... but you can?t take out the pace of Yobo, the consistent ability of Jags, or the goal threat of Lescott, or the leadership of Neville. Quality teams have quality benches as well as first 11s; Baines is one injury away from a place in the team and he himself has admitted he doesn?t mind doing it for the team. Moyes obviously feels guilty for leaving such a quality player out, which is why he brings him on near the end.
Lads, if Lescott isn't a left back then how come he plays well there and he was in the Sky Ssports Team of the Year last year...??? Sssssshhhhhhhh!!!
BTW... He doesn't have a good cross??? Did you not see the ball he whipped in to Anichebe last year vs SK Brann?????
He was at the club as a youngster and we did not think he was up to it then. Maybe it's worth cashing in on him, but personally I think given a chance he would come good.
Let?s be fair, he?s hardly played and when he has he?s done fuck all so he?s hardly a key member of the squad is he? If anyone was to offer £5m, I?d be clearing his locker straight away.
Ben, I guess I?ll be the one to say Yobo should be playing. Those of you that advocate dropping Yobo are overlooking the importance of his pace in the back. It enables Jags to play more aggresively and removes the threat of the long ball over the top. It?s tough on Baines, but unless he can move Lescott out of the fullback slot, he?ll have to sit on the sidelines. Great defences are built over time and I think Jags and Yobo will evolve into a tremendous partnership.
Let's see now... this season people would have sold Lescott, Cahill, Yak, Neville, Arteta and now Baines... make your bloody minds up.
I’d be playing Baines on the left side of midfield personally with the same back 4 as we have now. Baines is great at getting forward and can whip a good cross in. Neville has been superb for Everton, Lescott has largely been far better at left back than right back.
I think we should sell Lescott for £10m, Arteta for £12M then go and buy Brede Hangeland for £7m, Ryan Taylor for £3 - 4m, Jimmy Bullard for £7m and Paul Dixon from Dundee UTD (a genuine wide left player either on the wing or full back with a Beckhamesque cross) for £4m. That way we have balanced the books and not only increased the squad size but, in my opinion, improved it!
I suppose the fact that we are debating the merits of a ?fringe? player in LB implies that we are relatively happy with the current first team after the last couple of games. I wasn?t so long ago that it was Cahill, Arteta, Fellaini, etc who were under scrutiny.
Baines is a very good footballer but anyone who saw him in the first half at Hull earlier this season would see why he isn?t suited to certain games. High balls targeted to the back post and he?s lost ? no height and no physique. And if anyone points out yet again that Ashley Cole isn?t huge etc ..., then please look at things like spring, muscularity etc that can sometimes compensate for lack of height. Baines has none of these attributes.
Hibbert on the pther flank has similar weaknesses (and more besides!). Watch how teams target the big man running in at the far post. Van Nistelroy vs Hibbert anybody? The first Standard Leige goal away this year... etc etc.
Hibbert on the pther flank has similar weaknesses (and more besides!). Watch how teams target the big man running in at the far post. Van Nistelroy vs Hibbert anybody? The first Standard Leige goal away this year... etc etc.
James, is that a joke? Why don’t we sell our keeper too and Jagielka? They’re up their with our best players so must be worth a bob or 2. It’s absolutely ridiculous the way some people think we should cash in our best players and buy some other shite as replacements. The only way we can build a team is hold on to our best 11 and add quality to it to provide competition for places. Chopping and changing peronnel every transfer window is football manager stuff.
Baines is a fringe player who’s value has not dropped too much yet. Selling him would be no loss to our team and raise some funds to buy a decent defensive midfielder.
Baines is a fringe player who’s value has not dropped too much yet. Selling him would be no loss to our team and raise some funds to buy a decent defensive midfielder.
Personally, I believe Baines is a useful player to have in the squad ? just under-utilized. I hope he doesn?t request to leave in January (but I can understand why he would). He adds a different dimension to the formation with his pace and natural attacking style. When they?ve been partnered together on the left side (which has been rare) he and Peanuts link up well.
But, as others have noted, it?s a numbers issue with him. With all of the defensive woes the team has endured thus far this season, there just hasn?t been much opportunity to give him a good run this year. Defensively, Lescott is likely the better option between the two (although it is a bit unfair to judge as Baines really hasn?t been given much time to prove what he can do).
In terms of the original decision to acquire Baines, my guess is Moyes was looking for a competent depth player to provide decent cover for all of those Euro matches we were to play in...
What about a back three? Joe, Jags & Joleon. A middle five: Baines on the left, then we can have two up front. Welcome to the nut house!
Baines is starting to look like another of Moyes?s Krøldrup signings. He bought him, but doesn?t know why. Here?s a thought though, maybe Baines can?t head a ball?
Moyes knows what he?s doing. At the end of the day, Lescott?s always going to beat Baines for a place at the moment for the reasons already stated but if we stand any chance of winning a cup we need good back up players. This is why Lescott has been playing so well recently ? he?s already lost his CB position and he knows he can be replaced if he doesn?t perform. I personally believe a similar thing has sparked some life into Phill Neville; he?s been almost faultless since the possibility of Lars Jacobsen taking his place has re-emerged. This is how you get a real team. All we need now is a pace option in the team as well.
ps: don?t talk rubbish, James!
ps: don?t talk rubbish, James!
Tommy Fearns,
That would take an adventourous forward thinking manager with tatical nouse... so no chance with Moyes then.
That would take an adventourous forward thinking manager with tatical nouse... so no chance with Moyes then.
Welcome to the nut house indeed. Can't even field a recognised first team for the start of the season and here we are debating if we should sell one of our best players or a competant left back.
I?d go 3-5-2 with the extra centre-back making up for the tiny wing-back.
I?d go 3-5-2 with the extra centre-back making up for the tiny wing-back.
"Lescott is an average full back who scores more than his fair share of important goals for Everton. "
Goals which he scores from set pieces..... which has no bearing on him playing as a full back.
Goals which he scores from set pieces..... which has no bearing on him playing as a full back.
"BTW... He doesn’t have a good cross??? Did you not see the ball he whipped in to Anichebe last year vs SK Brann????? "
A cross, LAST YEAR?
Spot the deliberate mistake.
A cross, LAST YEAR?
Spot the deliberate mistake.
Under the circumstances, Baines would probably like to move on; however, Newcastle won?t spend the £5/6 million we would want. Moyes will have to sell to generate strker cash, Baines seems the obvious candidate to move, therefore, bottom line ? Baines will move... but not to Newcastle. Pitty really, if he had had a decent run in the team looks as though he could have done a decent job.
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1 Posted 14/12/2008 at 19:59:59
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I do agree that Leighton hasn’t been given much of a chance though. I’d rather see a shuffle of the pack and Phil Neville sat on the bench. At least he can pass to his own team mates and isn’t scared of taking the odd shot; unlike Captain Pip...