The Mail Bag
New Stadium... wherever it may be!
Comments (19)
I was very interested to read an article in which Arsene Wenger admits that their transfer policy for the next ten years will be affected by the debt created by their new stadium (I think it was on the BBC). Essentially they will have to create a conveyor belt of talent from within... not a problem it seems if you ARE Arsene Wenger. I'm not sure if Moyes has the scouting network or skills to match Wenger (not an attack ? I don't view any manager in the league as being as good as Wenger on all fronts).
I find it interesting from our point of view, as our silver-tongued leaders are constantly reassuring us that our transfer budget isn't affected by the ground situation in any way. Now, since what they have told us before (Kings Dock, Fortress, Goodison not able to be developed etc.) hasn't always been accurate, I am starting to get a bit cynical about our absence from the transfer market, our inability to get Moyes to sign the dotted line, as well as our unbreakable bond (it seems) with Tesco and a move that is losing support every day!
- Will the Kirby move really bring investment that outstrips Arsenal?
- Are we ever going to be able to afford top level players?
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When is Kenwright going to clear any of this up?
A concerned Blue
Alex Quigley, Posted 07/07/2008 at 15:44:54
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One of Moyes strengths is his ability to find a talent that no-one else can and turn him into a international ? Lescott and Jags for example. As for the ground, after reading Bill's comments at the ESCLA meeting I think the move is all but dead... which in all honesty suits me as I think the deal was poor from our point of view.
Arsenal's stadium cost them over £200M, which is why it?ll take them 20 years (not 10 years) to pay for it.
Whilst DK would come to roughly half that amount there?s absolutely no way it?d generate the same revenue that the Emirates does for Arsenal. Aside from the fact it holds 10,000 more fans than DK will, sells out every week, charges much higher prices and has more executive boxes, it?s also often used for Internationals and friendly tournaments... DK never will (plus I don?t imagine the local council get to use it?s facilities for free 100 times a year).
So, just how will DK generate an extra £10M a year towards Moyes?s transfer kitty when the Emirates has taken money out of Wenge'rs war chest? Over to you' Bully...
Whilst DK would come to roughly half that amount there?s absolutely no way it?d generate the same revenue that the Emirates does for Arsenal. Aside from the fact it holds 10,000 more fans than DK will, sells out every week, charges much higher prices and has more executive boxes, it?s also often used for Internationals and friendly tournaments... DK never will (plus I don?t imagine the local council get to use it?s facilities for free 100 times a year).
So, just how will DK generate an extra £10M a year towards Moyes?s transfer kitty when the Emirates has taken money out of Wenge'rs war chest? Over to you' Bully...
Alex
A timely reminder to all that spending on a new ground does not guarantee extra money for players especially given the interest levels on a loan.
I would much sooner see money spent on the park and get CL levels of income and exposure then spend money on redeveloping GP.
A timely reminder to all that spending on a new ground does not guarantee extra money for players especially given the interest levels on a loan.
I would much sooner see money spent on the park and get CL levels of income and exposure then spend money on redeveloping GP.
Alex
I totally share your concerns re the ground move, the total financial plan (ground and team)from now to completion and then the reliance on the ground securing better future finances, based on Everton having achieved CL incomes by 2010/11.
My problem is that there clearly isnt a generous source of income either in-house and there isnt any potential investor out there. I do believe Bill Kenwright is trying like hell to solve the second issue whilst ensuring he hasnt lost the millions he’s already thrown in. The first point of in-house sourcing is I’m afraid a joke - we cannot raise the funding neccessary to serve the team and the ground move together and there lies the biggest dilemma this club faces.
One silver lining is that clearly something is happening - Moyes hasnt signed yet but I’m sure he wouldn’t have brought in Round if there was any chance of himself walking away. There must be some funds being made available to him for the team as a priority.
Whilst this is good news (hopefully re the team) I’m sure Moyes is quite clear that he expects the ground issue to be resolved one way or another and that can only be with Bill successfully finding the investor sooner rather than later.
I totally share your concerns re the ground move, the total financial plan (ground and team)from now to completion and then the reliance on the ground securing better future finances, based on Everton having achieved CL incomes by 2010/11.
My problem is that there clearly isnt a generous source of income either in-house and there isnt any potential investor out there. I do believe Bill Kenwright is trying like hell to solve the second issue whilst ensuring he hasnt lost the millions he’s already thrown in. The first point of in-house sourcing is I’m afraid a joke - we cannot raise the funding neccessary to serve the team and the ground move together and there lies the biggest dilemma this club faces.
One silver lining is that clearly something is happening - Moyes hasnt signed yet but I’m sure he wouldn’t have brought in Round if there was any chance of himself walking away. There must be some funds being made available to him for the team as a priority.
Whilst this is good news (hopefully re the team) I’m sure Moyes is quite clear that he expects the ground issue to be resolved one way or another and that can only be with Bill successfully finding the investor sooner rather than later.
I am getting more and more frustrated by this whole stadium move.
Mike, I am not so certain that Moyes is staying. He must be spitting blood over the antics of his Chairman and CEO. And just to put the tin hat on it all it is Wyness who is, allegedly, making all of the telephone calls trying to get the players in! Fat chance there then.
How much do you think they are going to give Moyes? Not enough that is for sure.
Mike, I am not so certain that Moyes is staying. He must be spitting blood over the antics of his Chairman and CEO. And just to put the tin hat on it all it is Wyness who is, allegedly, making all of the telephone calls trying to get the players in! Fat chance there then.
How much do you think they are going to give Moyes? Not enough that is for sure.
I see this stadium issue like buying a small house in an excellent location and reaping the benefits in 10 years.
A family friend paid about 18 grand 15 years ago for a small cottage in Surrey. Now its worth close to 700 grand because they worked on the cottage year by year so it was no longer a two bed home but a five in a wonderful location.
Its the same with the stadium. The money we will receive over the next 15 years will help us increase our revenues, club valuation and interest from investors.
This brings in nicely my other point: Location. We need to get this right and what worries me is that both Goodison and Kirkby are the WRONG LOCATIONS.
Liverpool for a start have more money than us to spend on a new stadium so surely our PATCHED UP Goodison will look pathetic next to their super stadium across the park? Secondly, the area is not exactly going to increase our fortunes. There are no restaurants in the area to eat, only a McDonalds, the stadium will have no restaurant to bring in cash, the parking is a nightmare and the club shop is packed every home game so its a nightmare to buy things.
Kirkby is out of the city so Liverpool FC will make a understandable claim to be the only Liverpool club. The stadium will be like a B&Q next to Tesco rather than the home of our club. Plus the designs are a joke.
I say push the Liverpool City Council into a corner because they are the ones who have forced our club out of the city. Get them to offer a REAL site in the city and work with other partners, maybe Tesco, to help us fund the stadium. Why not demonstrate outside the council buildings and make them act?!
A family friend paid about 18 grand 15 years ago for a small cottage in Surrey. Now its worth close to 700 grand because they worked on the cottage year by year so it was no longer a two bed home but a five in a wonderful location.
Its the same with the stadium. The money we will receive over the next 15 years will help us increase our revenues, club valuation and interest from investors.
This brings in nicely my other point: Location. We need to get this right and what worries me is that both Goodison and Kirkby are the WRONG LOCATIONS.
Liverpool for a start have more money than us to spend on a new stadium so surely our PATCHED UP Goodison will look pathetic next to their super stadium across the park? Secondly, the area is not exactly going to increase our fortunes. There are no restaurants in the area to eat, only a McDonalds, the stadium will have no restaurant to bring in cash, the parking is a nightmare and the club shop is packed every home game so its a nightmare to buy things.
Kirkby is out of the city so Liverpool FC will make a understandable claim to be the only Liverpool club. The stadium will be like a B&Q next to Tesco rather than the home of our club. Plus the designs are a joke.
I say push the Liverpool City Council into a corner because they are the ones who have forced our club out of the city. Get them to offer a REAL site in the city and work with other partners, maybe Tesco, to help us fund the stadium. Why not demonstrate outside the council buildings and make them act?!
Its the same with the stadium. The money we will receive over the next 15 years will help us increase our revenues, club valuation and interest from investors.
This is a slightly bewildering statement...either i?m reading this wrong or you?re saying that our revenues will increase our revenues...
Nice allegory on the surrey cottage but your ?moral of the story? left a lot to be desired....making a bit of sense for a start.
p.s do you not think this whole saga has sickened most fans of the sight of the corporate leech Tesco?
This is a slightly bewildering statement...either i?m reading this wrong or you?re saying that our revenues will increase our revenues...
Nice allegory on the surrey cottage but your ?moral of the story? left a lot to be desired....making a bit of sense for a start.
p.s do you not think this whole saga has sickened most fans of the sight of the corporate leech Tesco?
Ciaran, You have beaten me to the punch !
Gavin, Are you on some sort of medication ? We are, allegedly, already £60m in debt. By adding another £78m to this debt do you imagine that we will have any spare money left in the kitty ? We will be servicing a £138m debt for pities sake.
I am also not that certain that all of the blame can be laid at the feet of LCC. They have blown hot and cold ever since the Kings Dock issue. If you care to recall this it was when BK told the LCC that the money for Kings Dock was "Ringfenced". They then waited for approx. two years before BK pulled out of the deal because he would not relinquish more control of the club to Paul Gregg.
Keep on taking the tablets mate !
Gavin, Are you on some sort of medication ? We are, allegedly, already £60m in debt. By adding another £78m to this debt do you imagine that we will have any spare money left in the kitty ? We will be servicing a £138m debt for pities sake.
I am also not that certain that all of the blame can be laid at the feet of LCC. They have blown hot and cold ever since the Kings Dock issue. If you care to recall this it was when BK told the LCC that the money for Kings Dock was "Ringfenced". They then waited for approx. two years before BK pulled out of the deal because he would not relinquish more control of the club to Paul Gregg.
Keep on taking the tablets mate !
Gavin you say..
"I say push the Liverpool City Council into a corner because they are the ones who have forced our club out of the city"
I?m not going to debate this, all the facts (FACTS!) are now out there (here!)... if you choose to ignore them, that?s your choice.
But for the grown-ups, if Everton FC are forced out of the city, they will have been forced by Bill Kenwright, Kieth Wyness, Terry Leahy and a few thousand (now proven) duped Evertonians.
"I say push the Liverpool City Council into a corner because they are the ones who have forced our club out of the city"
I?m not going to debate this, all the facts (FACTS!) are now out there (here!)... if you choose to ignore them, that?s your choice.
But for the grown-ups, if Everton FC are forced out of the city, they will have been forced by Bill Kenwright, Kieth Wyness, Terry Leahy and a few thousand (now proven) duped Evertonians.
How were yes voters duped exactly? The vote was for or against moving to a new stadium in Kirkby! Thats it! The claims by the club that it will be beneficial to Everton may be true or they may not be! It does my head in when people come on here and claim to have ’FACTS’ that Everton will be up shit creek when they know nothing of whats going on inside the club! Its all belief and opinions from both yes and no voters, not facts.
Dan, They were promised a "World Class Stadium".
They were promised unparalleled transport links.
They were promised little or no outlay by the club.
All of this has now turned out to be untrue.
What will it take to get anybody to understand that the move to Kirkby is going to cost Everton Football Club at least £78m !
This figure may even have risen by now due to the ever increasing construction costs.
There is also now talk of recession in this country.
What a bloody great time to consider moving !!!!
They were promised unparalleled transport links.
They were promised little or no outlay by the club.
All of this has now turned out to be untrue.
What will it take to get anybody to understand that the move to Kirkby is going to cost Everton Football Club at least £78m !
This figure may even have risen by now due to the ever increasing construction costs.
There is also now talk of recession in this country.
What a bloody great time to consider moving !!!!
I hear what your saying John, but the point that im making is that all the things you list came out after the vote, nobody knew about them before, so you cant blame yes voters for voting yes! The ’no’ voters voted no because they didnt want to go to Kirkby and not because they have a crystal ball and knew all this was coming!
Dan you say..
"The ?no? voters voted no because they didnt want to go to Kirkby and not because they have a crystal ball and knew all this was coming!"
True......to a point.
However many of us (and if you’re honest, YOU) saw many posts before the vote (years before!) saying that BK was a bullshitter (clue: many referred to him as Billy Bullshitter).
In fact he was PROVED to be a bullshitter (Kings Dock ring-fenced, Fortress Fund, etc blah).
So you see, a crystal ball wasn’t needed - there were people (eg: me), who BECAUSE of his bullshit, wouldn’t believe his claims (any of them...EVER!) and those like yourself who (presumably) allowed "He’s a good Evertonian" to override facts and logic.
The very cynical versus the very naive if you like
(and I believe you would go a long way to find anyone who would tell you the cynical are more prone to being duped than the naive)
Humans are a curious species - all flawed, yet we very rarely admit to having ANY faults. so I don’t expect many posting saying "I’m a total mug", however (strangely) your denial comes close.
You say..
"I hear what your saying John, but the point that im making is that all the things you list came out after the vote, nobody knew about them before, so you cant blame yes voters for voting yes!"
Er...do you know what a dupe ACTUALLY is? (coz that seems like a pretty good example to me)
And by the way you say, ’"so you can’t blame yes voters for voting yes"
Wrong (again!) - I can, and I DO!
You say "nobody Knew.."
KNEW?
Maybe not 100%, but I don’t KNOW..banging a rusty nail up my ringpiece will hurt, but a not particularly educated guess tells me it will....so I don’t do it.
Not a lot in life is 100% definite.
For all the other stuff, we have to USE our brain.
Which, as it turns out, has proved to be bad news for a lot of Evertonians
"The ?no? voters voted no because they didnt want to go to Kirkby and not because they have a crystal ball and knew all this was coming!"
True......to a point.
However many of us (and if you’re honest, YOU) saw many posts before the vote (years before!) saying that BK was a bullshitter (clue: many referred to him as Billy Bullshitter).
In fact he was PROVED to be a bullshitter (Kings Dock ring-fenced, Fortress Fund, etc blah).
So you see, a crystal ball wasn’t needed - there were people (eg: me), who BECAUSE of his bullshit, wouldn’t believe his claims (any of them...EVER!) and those like yourself who (presumably) allowed "He’s a good Evertonian" to override facts and logic.
The very cynical versus the very naive if you like
(and I believe you would go a long way to find anyone who would tell you the cynical are more prone to being duped than the naive)
Humans are a curious species - all flawed, yet we very rarely admit to having ANY faults. so I don’t expect many posting saying "I’m a total mug", however (strangely) your denial comes close.
You say..
"I hear what your saying John, but the point that im making is that all the things you list came out after the vote, nobody knew about them before, so you cant blame yes voters for voting yes!"
Er...do you know what a dupe ACTUALLY is? (coz that seems like a pretty good example to me)
And by the way you say, ’"so you can’t blame yes voters for voting yes"
Wrong (again!) - I can, and I DO!
You say "nobody Knew.."
KNEW?
Maybe not 100%, but I don’t KNOW..banging a rusty nail up my ringpiece will hurt, but a not particularly educated guess tells me it will....so I don’t do it.
Not a lot in life is 100% definite.
For all the other stuff, we have to USE our brain.
Which, as it turns out, has proved to be bad news for a lot of Evertonians
Dan,
I think you will find that most of the things that have been revealed were predicted before the vote. I’m sure if you check the archives most issues were already known about. They were all highlighted in various articles..... re: The poor transport; The lack of any feasibility study into GP’s redevelopment; The poor design-quality of the stadium; The assertion that there was NO PLAN B on the premise of insufficient funds was also questioned and the querry has since been vindicated when the "stadium for nothing" vanished into thin air. The attacks on the Loop site etc etc. To be honest none of these needed any great amount of detective work. As regards not wishing to go to Kirkby per se..... I agree this was certainly an issue for me (for the genuine reasons outlined), yet previously something like 90% voted to go there, so I’m not sure how much Kirkby itself influenced the vote. I would say the very nature of the hardsell and lack of any substantiating evidence to support KW’s assertions or that ANY other options had been properly looked at, and people’s lack of faith (now justified) in what they were being told were the main reasons people voted against Kirkby. If they had included the "whole truth" in the ballot, and/or allowed a rival option(s)........ We wouldn’t even be talking about Kirkby now!!!
I think you will find that most of the things that have been revealed were predicted before the vote. I’m sure if you check the archives most issues were already known about. They were all highlighted in various articles..... re: The poor transport; The lack of any feasibility study into GP’s redevelopment; The poor design-quality of the stadium; The assertion that there was NO PLAN B on the premise of insufficient funds was also questioned and the querry has since been vindicated when the "stadium for nothing" vanished into thin air. The attacks on the Loop site etc etc. To be honest none of these needed any great amount of detective work. As regards not wishing to go to Kirkby per se..... I agree this was certainly an issue for me (for the genuine reasons outlined), yet previously something like 90% voted to go there, so I’m not sure how much Kirkby itself influenced the vote. I would say the very nature of the hardsell and lack of any substantiating evidence to support KW’s assertions or that ANY other options had been properly looked at, and people’s lack of faith (now justified) in what they were being told were the main reasons people voted against Kirkby. If they had included the "whole truth" in the ballot, and/or allowed a rival option(s)........ We wouldn’t even be talking about Kirkby now!!!
For Arsenal or for that matter any club to fill its stadium will require on field success.
As the tide of fortune ebbs and flows there will inevitably be times when clubs have losing streaks.
The bigger the stadium the more chance it will be a cavernous uninspiring atmosphere less cold empty
shed.
The same situation will arise whether it is a new Anfield or Tesco stadium.
As the tide of fortune ebbs and flows there will inevitably be times when clubs have losing streaks.
The bigger the stadium the more chance it will be a cavernous uninspiring atmosphere less cold empty
shed.
The same situation will arise whether it is a new Anfield or Tesco stadium.
In the long term a new stadium will pay for itself...FACT.
Gavin,
Do redeveloped stadia pay for themselves too? Fact is, if Kirkby doesn’t operate at or near capacity it doesn’t pay for itself. The club stated that it needed gates of mid to high 40’s to break even when the cost was considerably lower than now. BTW, I believe there are/were several out of town stadia in the US that never paid for themselves, and had to be heavily subsidised by local authorities.
Do redeveloped stadia pay for themselves too? Fact is, if Kirkby doesn’t operate at or near capacity it doesn’t pay for itself. The club stated that it needed gates of mid to high 40’s to break even when the cost was considerably lower than now. BTW, I believe there are/were several out of town stadia in the US that never paid for themselves, and had to be heavily subsidised by local authorities.
An old gag.
Feller gets a knock on the door from a double-glazing salesman.
He says "Yes?"
The salesman says "Never mind ’yes?’ we installed double-glazing here in December and you stopped the payments in June - what’s the bleedin’ story?"
The feller says "Fuck off! You said it would pay for itself in six months!"
I am reminded of this old gag by Gavin who says..
"In the long term a new stadium will pay for itself...FACT"
I wonder if he’s talking about a similar scheme?
(what is certain is his GUESS with the word ’fact’ tagged to the end, is certainly a much better joke than mine).
Feller gets a knock on the door from a double-glazing salesman.
He says "Yes?"
The salesman says "Never mind ’yes?’ we installed double-glazing here in December and you stopped the payments in June - what’s the bleedin’ story?"
The feller says "Fuck off! You said it would pay for itself in six months!"
I am reminded of this old gag by Gavin who says..
"In the long term a new stadium will pay for itself...FACT"
I wonder if he’s talking about a similar scheme?
(what is certain is his GUESS with the word ’fact’ tagged to the end, is certainly a much better joke than mine).
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1 Posted 07/07/2008 at 19:18:40
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