Do we have an internet link to that? Thanks...

Click here

But bad news for the 59% that voted for it, eh?

Long live democracy.

So it looks like all the doubters could get what they wanted all along... 10 more years in a crumbling stadium, unable to generate the cash required to keep up with the big boys.

Still, at least you?ll all be able to have a pint on County road before playing the likes of Grimsby etc.

Mind you, given LCC?s track record in helping us out over recent years (they won?t event let us re-develop Bellefield) we should be ok shouldn?t we, they will come up with something for us, they always do.

Dreadful news...............The bully boys win again.

I’ll remember you all as I continue to trudge through the capital of dogshit to a pit of a stadium.

Democracy? Piffle!

Right, knock down the Park End May 18th, pull it back a little and build a one-piece tier holding 11000 or so. Should be ready by the end of August ;-)

IF it falls through how much money have we lost on the venture so far?

And why does this mean we will be playing Grimsby etc?? If we get a new stadium, like Derby, Coventry, Southampton, Leicester, Bolton etc will we be guaranteed top european football? I dont get that! How would moving to "a mid range stadium" in Kirkby ensure our "survival" in the big league??

Well done boys, I’ll continue to dodge the dog shit up County Road with my two sons and then proceed to sit in a Stadium with obstructive views.

If my kids are hungry I will then go and queue up 10 minutes before half time and ten minutes into the second half to eat a pile of shit.

Well done chaps......nice to see the club is moving forward.

Goodison Park......don’t you just love it.

I respect both sides of the argument on Kirby, but as I don?t live in Liverpool, location isn?t as important to me as it is to the locals.

Can someone from the anti-Kirby brigade answer this question however.

If the move to Kirby falls through, we stand to lose Tesco?s as a partner in the project. That said, according to Ian Ross at the club, Goodision has less than a 10 year lifespan remaining before it could potentially lose it?s safety certificate. How exactly therefore, are we supposed to pay for a new ground witiin the city boundaries or re-development of Goodison and continue to invest in new playing staff?

Somebody, obviously a YES voter above said long live democracy, and for the FIRST time in this whole sorry debacle of a move thankfully a democratic process may actually happen. Robert Mugabe would be proud of the way Everton conducted "the fair vote", and he would probably have come away with a few pointers besides.

For those who voted Yes, do not be confused by what is happening here. This is not the "No" camp "winning". This is just a platform for the whole thing to be put under the microscope for what it actually is.

If this does materialise, THANK-GOD is all I can say, finally an IMPARTIAL and FAIR process-for a change. If this whole Tesco-Dome thing is as good as it says on the tin, then all the YES voters have nothing to worry about surely-we will move anyway. If Tesco do pull out of this as a result, then that should tell everybody exactly how much of an Evertonian Leahy is.

Good riddance I would say. And Take Wyness with you.

Obstructed views aside why do people think a stadium in Kirkby will solve everything else they dislike about the Goodison match day experience?

The catering will still be crap, served by the lowest paid staff, there will still be queues for the toilets and the horses will still dump where-ever they like!

Everton have a poor record of providing services to its fans so why would a new setting make them act any differently?

Jack Burton.... the answer from the anti-Kirkby brigade will be ?by magic?.

They are all speaking from the heart but when it come down to cold facts about the state of Goodison and there being NO alternative, they bury their heads in the sand.

There is no plan b, c or d. They need to realise this and the fact that LCC don?t give a toss about us.

The same way as we would pay the £78 million pounds for Kirkby, Jack. There is hardly any difference. And Ian Ross is scaremongering with his less than 10 year lifespan.

Now, now boys...be sensible
Why should anyone want to call in this scheme for the ?deal of the century? -
it?s for a ?world-class stadium?, ?virtually free? with the ?best transport infrastructure? in the North West which will generate annually up to 10 (yes 10!) million pounds before interest payments for team improvement PLUS it?s freely expandable to 65000 and will host operas, concerts, exhibitions, rallys, corporate jollies etc to help EFC compete with the big boys.
Oh hang on, those were the promises we voted for ? summat wrong here...

Phil Bradley, for the money we would have to invest in Kirkby, we can easily redevelop two stands of Goodison, maybe three. A few years on we do the other stand(s). How’s that for a plan B?

Tony Parsons wrote " Still, at least you?ll all be able to have a pint on County road before playing the likes of Grimsby etc".

If Hull can reach the Premier League, who?s to say that Grimsby can?t make it as well?!!

Erik,

Easy as that eh?

Why don’t you give Bill a call and tell him how easy it will be.

Don’t be silly.

Phil, exactly what will be the problem? Of course it won’t happen overnight - it will take ages to get the planning permission and we will fuck it up somehow since we are Everton. But I don’t see any problem that Kirkby wouldn’t have.

Phil Bradley......how do you know that all the dogs in Kirkby are constipated?

When it gets called in then it will be fine again. On the bright side Billy Bullshitter and KW will have to go! We will be staying put in the City and there will not be a huge split in the Fan Base anymore. But agree with Erik: start stage 1 on Redevelopment on Park End!

I can?t believe the number of YES voters on here. They are like turkeys looking forward to Christmas. A new stadium is a good idea but Kirkby is a bad idea for the countless reasons others have put forward, not least the lies we were told to acheive a Yes vote.

Ian Ross is scaremongering when he says we will lose the safety certificate . The worst case scenario, if there were serious problems at Goodison, is that the capacity would be reduced.

Numerous people have mentioned dog shit on County Road and I take it there is none in Kirkby? And will it be safe to park your car in the crime capital of Europe?
If Kirkby falls through then the board will be forced to look at alternatives including the piecemeal redevelopment of Goodison. Even Wyness has already stated that would have to be plan B.

Can I suggest that all the nice people calling my home city a shit hole not bother entering it anymore if it so offends them, or perhaps they might like to proclaim their beliefs in any county road/city-centre pub. I’m not sure how they can stomach sitting next to so many shit-stained scousers in the first place!!!

One option vote..... democracy???
Every single supporting factor heralded at the time of the vote has been exposed as lies and people dare to label it democracy!!! No alternative in the ballot literature, with no hint of a decision design process regarding redevelopment of Goodison or any other site. Mind you even Hitler was voted into power, so may be you’re right!!

The fact is, the fans were duped. Given the hardsell by the best salesman in the business. They voted for a stadium that is part of a project that violates ALL local and regional planning legislation. We are Tesco’s and Knowsley’s enabler not the other way around. The unanimous objections by ALL surrounding authorities illustrating the folly which we have been dragged into. We benefit to the tune of just one new stand as we are expected to fund 3/4 of this stadium, not the whole new practically free stadium as promised. The most accessible stadium in the country has decended into the least accessible with a multiple revised/failed transport strategy still being laughed at!!! What you voted for never existed.

BTW, the dogs shit in Kirkby too!!!

How the hell are Everton going to find £78M to build anything? Funding Kirkby or New Goodison would push the debt up to £140M and I doubt very much if Blue Bill is good for that much credit. OK, so Bully can flog everything off even before it?s built but there is a limit to this tactic.
If the scheme IS called in, I suspect they will breathe a sigh of relief.....,and do nothing!

Harry,
I think you?re right, there are very few pro-Kirkby soundbites eminating from BK or KW these days..... only the occasional party-line utterances, and the lapdog yapping away incoherently every now and then.

"Well done boys, I?ll continue to dodge the dog shit up County Road with my two sons and then proceed to sit in a Stadium with obstructive views."

I took my son to Goodison for his first ever match against Arsenal and we had great seats, the only obstruction being some ginger bloke in a tracksuit shouting at the players! Not all seats, or even the majority, are obstructed views. I also paid £48 to sit at Stamford bridge and couldn't see the ball if it went over head height. I saw dog shit all over Fulham as well but Chelsea won't be moving to Chessington!

"If my kids are hungry I will then go and queue up 10 minutes before half time and ten minutes into the second half to eat a pile of shit."

I took sarnies as ALL football grounds have big queues at half time - Fulham, West Ham, Chelsea, Arsenal etc, ALL have that problem as will/would Kirkby!

"Well done chaps...... nice to see the club is moving forward."

I personally don't agree that Kirkby is/was a move forward but I do agree that IF we stay at Goodison there are improvements needed. I just don't agree that its suddenly as crap as people are making out.

"Goodison Park......don?t you just love it. "
Well, yes, actually I do!

Mark Murphy wrote "I saw dog shit all over Fulham as well but Chelsea wont be moving to Chessington!"

Ah Mark, dontcha know they have a better class of dog shit in Chelsea :0) The pampered pooches only dine on the finest fois gras.....

Domonic Diamond: Is that really how you spell your name? So, for the benefit of those people who don’t appreciate the strength of your democratic convictions, please list all those other clubs (an any league) who have canvassed the fans on a potential ground move.

I can help you. It’s, erm, zero. So before you spout such utter drivel can you please allow a few facts to prevail. Whatever your view on Kirkby (FWIW, I was sort of pro & now I’m sort of against) just try and stick to relevant facts or opinions.

Dragging EFC into the same boat as Robert Mugabe is sick. How dare you spout such infantile nonsense. This man is a mass murderer & intimidator, as well as a fraudster & thief. Seems to me that 99% of the intimidation and threats in this whole Kirkby debate have come from "No" supporters.

Or, to be more precise, people just like YOU.

Hopefully it will get called in and then what's the odds the chairman we have goes even further underground than he already is in his bunker. Me thinks Billy Bullshit will be secretly wishing for it to be called in as he knows he can't afford the rumoured £78 Mill anyway and basically there is nothing left to seel within Everton as it has been stripped to its bare bones.
But then again we could sell Johnson, Arteta and Lescott etc right at the end of the transfer deadline and then just say "Oh it was too late to buy anyone"

Rubbish, the amount of negative BS put around by the No voters is laughable. We voted Yes and all the signs are that the project will NOT be called in.

I remember a poster here saying that the Board had been told that it was being called in. That was BS too, they were being told that the pannel wanted more evidence and time.

The fact that DM is now negotiating his contract and all has gone quiet from Blue Bill et al indicates that the project will not be called in.

No government wants to stop a massive investment project creating jobs in the current economic climate.

The fact the Liverpool and surrounding councils have objected is neithet here nor there as Kirkby voted Yes by a huge majority, and they are the authority that counts in planning terms.

I know I?m going to get slated but wtf, I?m tired of hearing all the no voters screaming like banchies and comparing the Board and Yes voters to tin pot dictators.

Well, let's just hope it does get called in. Then our board will have to come up with a ?plan B?. I still cant believe after all the lies about DK that some people still want to move. Do you people not realise that if it goes ahead we will become just another Bolton, Derby, Wigan or any other mid-level English club? Surely we deserve a world class stadium in Liverpool. Ok it may not happen for 10 years but I am definetly prapared to wait until the right oppurtunity comes along. Kirkby was never the right oppurtunity.

There is a vein of Kenwright bullshit running through the entire Kirkby project as far as I am concerned.
It’s fairly widely believed that he’s had various approaches with regards to selling up, but he wont until he’s moved us to Kirkby.

It’s at this point that the club suddenly increases in value, alongside Billy Bullshit’s shares.

Without flogging a dead horse; we were given our chance by LCC in the form of Kings Dock, and we blew it completely.

Now as a person and an Evertonian, I like Bill Kenwright. However as a Chairman, he should have stood down after the King’s Dock fiasco.

Dominic Diamond,

The Kirkby vote likened to the Zimbabwean election? Yeah, course it was. All those murders and the intimidation....

A pathetic and purile argument. Not to say offensive and inappropriate.

Let’s not confuse ourselves here - whether or not Kirkby gets called in or not has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the proposed new Everton stadium. It is totally to do with the Tesco retail development and the competition it provides for neighbouring boroughs’ retail facilities - most notably, the LCC’s.

If this is called in, the LLC - whilst providing us with virtually zero support over the last few years - will have deprived us of the option of building a new stadium so that they can defend their own shopkeepers. They have fallen over themselves to let our neighbours break all known agreements to build on Stanley Park, whilst coming up at the very last minute with the joke Loop option for us, and they are now preventing us from building anywhere else. With friends like these..

And Dean, could you please stop repeating such patent rubbish as that the value of Bill’s shares will go up when we move to Kirkby - although you obviously believe Kirkby will be a financial disaster. A lot of companies would love to know how they can make obviously foolish financial investments and see the value of their shares go up - do you think you could help them? While you are at it, you might like to let us all know who has seriously tried to buy us in recent years before they were turned away by Bill. Odd that we haven’t heard a whisper, but no doubt you can explain that too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter, if you prefer to believe the clubs pre-ballot propaganda on the pertinent issues surrounding the proposed move to Kirkby; the quality of the stadium construction, the cost, the transport issues, the levels of extra revenue derived from non footballing activities, the total lack of a suitable alternative to this proposal, this is your prerogative.

Paradoxically those who questioned the same information, initially due to the mistrust generated through previous misleading events such as the Kings Dock debacle, the Fortress Sports Fund promise, the NTL saga, the circumstances surrounding the sale of Wayne Rooney and the frankly bizarre presence and alleged share ownership by Robert Earl combined with the disjointed and illogical presentation of the Kirkby stadium facts and figures, are all equally entitled to hold and express their views.

Notwithstanding the magnitude of feelings on both sides of this divide, and let's not forget this, it is a club induced divide in the supporters, the fact remains that Everton Football Club, Tesco Stores Ltd and Knowsley Borough Council have been repeatedly told that this scheme is undeliverable due to the departure from acknowledged local, regional and national planning policy principally due to the scale and inappropriateness of the retail element required to provide a £52M cross subsidy to the proposed stadium represents.

Irrespective of the actions of supporters and opponents alike if the Secretary of State endorses the scheme the Everton Boards actions, no matter what your opinion, are vindicated, as they will have delivered the project despite the claims of the many opponents. If on the other hand the scheme is called in, potentially leading to unacceptable increases in costs and the prospect of the scheme being thrown out by a public enquiry, the board will simply have to face the wrath and understandable anger of the supporters of the club with the very real prospect of their positions being seen as untenable.

Let's hope that whatever the decision the arguments, ridicule of fellow supporters and criticisms levied at of our home for over a century can be quickly resolved and that we move forward in a civilised manner.

Alan Kirwan (Is that how you spell your name) And James Braid, I do apologise if I have caused any offence regarding My comparison of the Kirkby project to the Zimbabwe elections.

I must remember next time to have a sense of humour bypass before posting on here before pillars of the community like yourselves.

However, the point I was alluding to was a valid one which I stand by, although the ballot concept was a fantastic idea, the process itself was completely unfair from the start.

Of course there were no bludgeonings or hit squads, but there was one consistent theme-the men in power go to great lengths to get the decision that they want.

I

I?m neutral in the Kirkby debate although I would love us to get a bright new home befitting our status as a top club. As far as funding is concerned, I was told at a corporate event at Goodison last year that the money would be raised via a debenture scheme which would obviously be easier to sell at a new stadium rather than one re-developed piecemeal. 8,000 debentures of £10,000 (only half of Arsenal?s sales at the Emirates) would cover all the club?s costs although the impact it would have on the club?s ability to repay the Bear Sterns (now Barclays?) mortgage might be worrying.

I voted Yes the same as many Evertonians and yet the No voters"are determined to wreck it for the rest of us. Selfish is an understatement. While Goodison Park stays in the dark ages, so do the No Voters with it.

I hope it doesn?t get called in as the future looks bleak if it does? as it will take another number of years before we come up with alternatives, if there are any all Evertonians can agree with ?. (I doubt it)!!!

If it's not called in?. I look forward to seeing a better future for Everton and my kids can enjoy sitting in a new stadium with better facilities.

Phil Bradley - " Goodison Park - don?t you just love it "
Actually Phil - I do !!! As an exiled Evertonian, I would like to say that if you ever want to get shut of a ticket for a game at Goodison - let me know. Surely you wouldn?t want to watch a match in such a poor stadium!!!!! Several clubs have moved to new a new stadium and it hasn?t meant instant success e.g. Derby County,Sunderland , Leicester City etc. The biggest move was that of Southampton - they moved from the Dell and it?s 15,000 capacity to a stadium over double the capacity. It?s not been the answer to all of their problems.

To be fair to BK - we are reaping what we sowed in the 1990s. Whilst Man Utd were reveloping Old Trafford c 1992 - we were doing very little to Goodison. For that the blame should go not to Kenwright but some of the people who ran the club before him. I would include John Moores in that - there was never much provision for someone to take control after him.

Neil Pearse nobody has tried to buy us because, as the dossier stated, "Everton?s Directors are not willing to relinquish their shares". It is there in black and white.

Fact of the matter is the fanbase is split in two over this staduim issue and this Destination Kirkby is the ONLY viable option on the table because of the board's inability to run the financial side of the football club properly for the last 15 years or so.

To say the people who run Everton FC have been "evasive" on this matter is an understatement. Is it too much to ask for Wyness and Kenwright to come out and engage in an open and sincere discussion with the fans or representives of the fans about this ground move?? Is it? I think a long serving loyal fanbase like Everton?s is entitled to that at least.

It?s being kept in the dark and the feeling that your constantly getting told porkies that drives fans like me MAD!

I actually swerved most comments on here besides Tom Hughes’ and Colin Fitzpatrick’s as been more fair minded. Neil P well put about the call in relating solely to the retail element and nothing whatsoever to do with the football stadia as that would not be reasonable cause to post objections. I’m a well known no voter and cringe at the comments above which go to show the hatred that now exists between the fans and some comments completely pointless - will there or wont there be dogshit FFS unless it’s on your seat there is dogshit anywhere a dog goes and just because it’s there you don’t have to step in it. Likewise the crumbling stadia which has already been disproven together with no revised business projections given the credit slump with everyone’s pockets getting emptied by far more important things than going to the match. It’s a sad state of affairs that the club is in this state a sad, sad state.

Nice sentiments, Colin. We are supposed to be all on the same side aren’t we?

I like Bill Kenwright as an Evertonian and he seems like a decent enough fella. Can’t really say the same for Big Keith, but maybe he has to earn my respect first doing that job.

Personally, I just feel they have been barking up the wrong tree with DK, but if DK does go belly up, I expect them to find another option. It’s got to be possible.

Sebastian,

Yes £80,000,000 raised through the sale of debentures would certainly cover the costs of Kirkby but this is not what the club have repeatedly said. It has been clearly explained that through the sale of the remaining assets of Bellefield and Goodison they hope to realise £8M and £15M respectively. A £60M+ stadium naming rights deal has been forecast with any shortfalls being made up with a small amount of debt finance, no more than £10M - £15M. This was repeated by Sir Terry Leahy in an open letter to the fans during the ballot, he indicated, from memory, that Everton were unlikely to find a better deal in which for an investment of approximately £35M Everton would acquire a £130M asset. Many people have indicated that these figures appear to be somewhat optimistic.

The existing securitisation loan whilst organised by Bear Stearns is in fact with Prudential. It?s secured through the placing of Goodison Park in a special purpose vehicle (SPV) and is protected by a series of confidential covenants. The loan is serviced through the future sale of season tickets and corporate entertainment sales over the remaining 21 years of the 25-year term.

Neil Pearse - Whilst I?m no bluechip CEO, I would hazard a guess that a football club with a brand new stadium and potential for massively increased revenues through ticket sales, corporate etc - would have more face value than a club with a crumbling though well loved stadium that struggles to sell out at capacity due to poor facilities and seating.

As far as I am aware, the club?s borrowing has increased massively since Kenwright took over - and none of it being from his pocket. Therefore, "obviously foolish financial investments" are less foolish when paid for with someone else?s money.

I don?t think Kenwright gets enough credit as far as his business head is concerned. He?ll walk away from Everton a hell of a lot richer than when he bought out Johnson.

Could you see him matching Sir Jack Heywood and selling the club for £10 to secure it?s future?

No...he?ll sell up and walk away counting his profits.

With regards to potential suitors - do you really think that Everton with it?s fantastic base of a young manager, young team and ardent, loyal supporters would attract ZERO enquiries, but every other club in the Premier League and League One seems to have foreign owners clamouring for a peice of the action?

Gavin, I started this thread and I?m dismayed how quickly it has deteriorated into a slanging match. If we were all in a pub it would be like the wild west. A sad state of affairs, as you say, and brought about by the divisive vote and the lies told by the club.

The sooner we get a decision the better and if it?s the green light so be it. However, I have my doubts whether EFC can afford to participate in this scheme even if it gets the nod.

Grimsby Town are an interesting metaphor as they play in Cleethorpes and not Grimsby and are soon to move out to Greatcoates to a new stadium. I live near them and if they win football matches they?ll double their crowd.

I really am sick of all this carping between pro- and anti-Tesco/Kirkby factions. Yes I?d like to stay and have Goodison renovated but it won?t stop me going to Kirkby. I?ve always thought Goodison a most inaccessible ground by public transport or other means. Walton is a terrible place really and so I suppose is Kirkby.

The Kings Dock opportunity really did come at the wrong time for the club. I know Kenwright is a bit of a bullshitter and an actor but really all-in-all in coming 5th and 6th in the past two years he and David Moyes have worked miracles.

I think too many people obviously play fantasy football. Yes I would love it if Chelsea, Man Unt and Liverpool all imploded and Everton could win the Premier League, I would also like the Beatles to reform and go straight to number one and for beer to be 22p a pint again. Stop living in the past.

Alan Rodgers
"And will it be safe to park your car in the crime capital of Europe ? "

Can you post a link to that before I see you in court?

Process of a ToffeWeb stdium discussion:-
a) Article/comment posted

b) Yes voters/pro-kirkby fans come on and bleat on about proven wrongs or the dilapidated state of goodison & walton describing like a scene from mad max??

c) They get a reaction from certain quarters but again regular writers like Tom Hughes & other anti_kirkby no voters come on to either debate or IMO rubbish thier earlier claims.

d) The Yes voters disappear, happy to stick thier heads back in the sand and dream of the wonderful all singing, all dancing, shiny, free new stadium that is gonna catapult us back into the big time???

I don't mean to offend anyone, although I?m not particularly bothered if I do but can anyone see a pattern emerging here? I hope it's not just me.

And to describe a poorly organised vote over a stadium to the atrocities going on in Zimbawe are fucking ridiculous.

This divide that has been created between our own fans is pathetic, I'm sick to death of people moaning about this decision. The club gave us the chance to have our say, we voted in favour, even if it was close at 59%, it's still in favour of the move, so many people are short sighted, we have a business partnership opportunity with the biggest shop retailer in the UK, they are footing a large amount of this bill.

What I can't understand is this..... How are we going to generate the money for a stadium in the city boundaries, or re-develope goodison? Where is the money coming from? We cannot afford a stadium all by ourselves, and Tesco are giving us 100% ownership from day one, which is a much better deal than what Arsenal have, they owe a lot of money even now.

No matter where we play I will support the blues, I hope everyone else feels the same, otherwise you have to question the integrity of some fans. I want the move, because i want Everton to push on to where we belong.

You know what, I really hope DK does get called in, and the whole thing collapses, then years down the line when we?re still at a Goodison patched up with elastoplast and no money for new players, playing in the Championship (if we?re lucky), at least we will still have Goodison with all its fantastic memories but nothing to celebrate in the last 20 years, at least we will still be within the city boundaries so the Redshite can't take the piss out of us about that eh?

Liam Young wrote "We cannot afford a stadium all by ourselves, and tesco are giving us 100% ownership from day one".

Tesco are only a very successful company through putting themselves first. Just ask people who have dealt with them in the last few years and you will find that Tesco use all necessary means to win. The same as any successful company but it?s always on their terms. Sometimes Sir Terry and Bill?s bluenose status clouds the issue. Tesco are responsible only to their shareholders and will not deliver a world class stadium for us.

It will not be in the Finest range but will be in the value range instead. You can spin it all you like (and putting to one side for a moment the location, transport links etc) but it will be a budget, functional stadium. If the club can regularly win (or at least compete) for trophies then that becomes part of the marketing. If not, then marketing a club with a great history and tradition but in a functional stadium in an area without the history of a central city location becomes harder.

Sorry to harp on about the Yes / No vote again but can someone answer the following questions:
1. How many corporate seats / directors seats etc are held by EFC?
2. How many of the above were included in the total number of eligible votes?
3. If so, how many voted Yes or No?

Interesting thoughts.

Funny how you never meet Yes voters out and about on Mersyside...they are as rare and even less vocal in the flesh as Tory voters were in the early 90s.
Does it not bother you that what you voted for is no longer what?s on offer?
Rather than post on a website, go into any pub in the City and publicly voice your pro-Kirby, stop-living-in-the-past stance, explain your rationale and spout your denegration of Liverpool and the people of Walton in particular - see how much support you get.

Anthony Fielding we have been playing in the shadow of the RS for decades and still not in the championship, try to at least come up with something new to add to the discussion other than Tesco propoganda, the football on the pitch would put us in the championship not the stadium; if we can’t afford players now then how would we afford more with more debt?

Paul, did you ever consider that the Yes voters are "less vocal" because the vote happened and they got what they voted for? They have no reason to be shouting the odds untill they are almost having a stroke.

The comments on this site alone towards the Yes voters would indicate what kind of angry response they would get if they started shouting the odds. Perhaps they are content with the way the vote when and are happy to sup their pints and discuss the upcoming game rather than get into a heated debate?

John Lloyd, you can see the progression of a Toffeeweb debate that way whilst others will see it this way perhaps?

a) Article/comment posted

b) Yes voters/pro-kirkby fans come on and bleat on about proven wrongs or the dilapidated state of goodison & walton describing like a scene from mad max??

c) They get a reaction from certain quarters but again regular writers like Tom Hughes & other anti_kirkby no voters come on to either debate or IMO rubbish thier earlier claims.

d) The Yes voters disappear because they have had the same debate for over a year now and are tired of the same words rehashed over and over again.

Just a thought

With all the pro and anti Kirkby argument is it only me that finds the actual deal not acceptable where ever the ground is. we were told of it generating extra revenue yet the terms of the deal make that very unlikely and giving the council all that free use of the stadium plus Everton paying the cost if we can not accommodate it is this normal practice to me it seems similar to a back hander.transport links are a joke I could go on but I get the feeling on here its not the deal that matters is purely location

To all you Yes Voters - If we stay at Goodison, it crumbles to the ground and we end up going down, so be it. At least that?s an honest way to go and not built on lies, deceit and debt. We?ll deal with that the way we?ve dealt with any setback in the past. We?ll get on with it and support the shirt.

Abuse of Evertonians removed by Moderator

Tony
QED
You’re proving my point
How can anyone be happy that they are NOT getting what they voted for apart from the location?
Roy...spot on - that’s the reality; we are not getting the benefits we were promised. If you had a builder promise you a 4 bed-detached and delivers, instead, a 3-bed semi would you still be happy? Course not, you’d tell him where to go and then sue the bastard

It would seem that democracy only works one way!

When something is questioned because what is was sold on was lies and misleading information then that?s not allowed.

Interesting!!

Tony
If you’re so sure that what you voted for was and still is pukka, surely you’d defend you stance? Why should you be afraid of an adverse reaction iin public if you are STILL in the majority? Surely, you’d be backed up by the majority fellow Yes voters
Wasn’t that Paul’s point about Tory voters being ashamed to own up to signing up to Thatcher’s Britain?

Well, maybe match-going Evertonians who don't have season tickets but still go the game might get a say next time. To all the people calling Walton the dog shite capital, open your fucking eyes and you won't walk in it! I'm sure there is dog shit in Kirkby or do they clean it up themselves? What makes you think the food would be better in Kirkby? It will be the same caterers.

In reply to Ray Lupton, if we stay where we are we will slowly die financialy as a club. We need a new stadium, I doubt that unless major work is done to GP in the next couple of years that it would pass its saftey tests as a footballing venue.

We don't have the cash to renovate, so we have to move. We have voted and we will (God willing) be moving. If all the naysayers don't want to travel to the new stadium after supporting the club for donkey's years then so be it, cut your nose off to spite your face. Me, I?ll carry on going and cheering.

Mark Perry..we haven?t got the cash to move, either (or are you so certain of the future, do you know if it?s ?ring-fenced??)

Whilst we?re on the subject, why don?t dogs ever tread in dogshit?

I voted no. The vote was ?yes? and i?d gladly take it on the chin and accept the decision. However, the fact of the matter is, what you Yes voters voted for is not what we are going to get. If you yes voters want to say I?m wrong, then here is a challange for you:? apart from the location, give me a statement by Keith Wyness prior to the vote which is still true to this day.

If the Kirkby application does get called in the anti-Kirkby lot will as time passes be likened to Nero fiddling while Rome burns. In 10 years time we will still be housed in a crumbling stadium with no potential for increasing revenue while they still debate with anyone who will listen about which part of the ground should be developed first. Then if Liverpool?s stadium ever get off the ground they will be able to tell their grandchildren that they played their part in keeping Everton in the City - if not in the Premier League.

But Phil aren’t the Yes voters suddenly in the minority now? According to all the "profefessional statiticians" on here the No have it by a massive margin......apparantly!

Once again, why would a Yes voter get into a heated debate with a No voter, when they have (possibly had now) what they wanted.

I have give my reason for voting Yes, nothing to do with the poxy brochure given with the ballot slip but everything to do with closing an option off when nothing else at the time seemed viable, and still doesn’t. I still stand by my vote and will say so to anyones face how I voted. Nothing to do with being affraid but everything to do with pointless heated arguments will amount to absolutely nothing.

Again I have said many times the vote was a disgrace and should never have been put to us, it is Bill’s way of seeing himself right, whatever way the vote ended.

When you go the pub before the game do you go around asking everyone in there if they are Yes or No? If not how can you say that the Yes voters are nowhere to be seen?

Phil, were are you from ?????

I take from your post that you only go the game occasionaly, so why don't you go somewhere else and watch footy where everything is rossy.

Long live the boozers on County Road, they're what make Goodison special.

In all the objections to DK I have ever heard over the last two years, not one objector has ever revealed one viable alternative. Castles in the air aplenty, but not one of them has ever answered the two prime questions: Ok then, where? And who is going to buy it for us? We will never get a Stadium anywhere else for £78 million fucking quid!

We can complicate this argument interminably with pipe dreams, Trevor Skempton's undeniably beautiful drawings, Loopy daydreams and diatribes aimed at the EFC board. But actually the issue is quite simple.

• Is Goodison falling down? Not quite yet but it does have Osteoporosis.
• Do we need a new Stadium? Yes.
• Can we pay for one ourselves? No.
• Who pays then? We can afford £78m.
• Would we be able to borrow that because we don?t have it in the bank? Only if it was a shiny new stadium in the middle of an enabling development. Probably not if it was for a redeveloped Goodison, especially with an even shinier new stadium 300 yards away.
• Would £78 million buy us a stadium anywhere else? No, not unless we bought Prenton Park.
• Will anybody else come along ( a Russian Billionaire perhaps) and pull us out of this impasse? Not if they have any sense. Not if the first bill they are faced with is the cost of a new Stadium.
• What do we do then? Grow up and hope Hazel Blears passes DK or otherwise we are absolutely fucked!

Bilbo..are you tolkein to me????

Tony
In my circle of Evertonian friends, colleagues etc I know of only 3 of, about, 30, who voted Yes. Of those, all 3 are now adamant they would not vote Yes for the current state-of-play - no concerts, freebies for the Council, mid-range, 50,000 capacity etc
I appreciate your reason for voting as you did but disagree with it. Fair enough.
As for asking who voted what in the pubs, you don’t have to - it seems to be the sole topic of conversation when Blues get together these days

David, what about Sainsbury?s plan to be a partner with us? Could we not have at least talked to them and see what they had to offer? I’d love to know why Keith Wyness refused to reply to their phone calls and letters.

David
Why should the man-in-the street objector have to come up with viable, better alternatives - that’s the Board’s job which they have abrogated to shack up with the first tart who’d give em a grope.
Have you ever heard of any other multi-million pound organisation having ’no plan B’. Bollocks!
You sound a right realistic, pragmatic barrel of laughs - my guess is a car-travelling fan from Cheshire.
As a great man said ’We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars

Paul not all Cheshire car drivers are "realistic" yes voters i will have you know

Apart from being pedantic, just exactly what is the reason for not going to Kirkby?

For the life of me I can’t see one.

Please, can someone give me a reason not to go?

David,
"In all the objections to DK I have ever heard over the last two years, not one objector has ever revealed one viable alternative."

How many alternatives have the club revealed to you to prove their point? Where are the exhaustive studies to show what can or can’t be achieved elsewhere or at GP? Don’t you think the subject at least warrants that level of scrutiny? There are no planning applications registered at the planning office regarding expanding GP in whatever way. How can that be if we have really exhausted all options?

"We will never get a Stadium anywhere else for £78 million fucking quid!"

I’ll give you a clue..... We don’t need a whole new stadium at GP! there are over 40,000 seats, with the vast majority redeemable.

"But actually the issue is quite simple.Is Goodison falling down? Not quite yet but it does have Osteoporosis."

I remember they said the same about the Albert Dock. GP’s old stands are actually over-engineered, and would out-last several more modern structures if allowed to. Have you ever been to Ibrox? The best stand there is infact an Archie Leitch classic that has been added to.

"Do we need a new Stadium? Yes."
Actually, we probably only really need some additional capacity, a reduction in obstructed views, and a few more executive boxes certainly fro the forseeable. All of which can be achieved at GP.
"Can we pay for one ourselves? No."

Perhaps not, but £78m gets a lot of redevelopment, and all at a far superior location for access and public transport than Kirkby. Bestway actually stated that they envisaged EFC’s contribution to the Loop site would be of the order of £60m given the superior level and scope of enabling developments there so close to a city-centre that is being transformed.
"Would we be able to borrow that because we don?t have it in the bank? Only if it was a shiny new stadium in the middle of an enabling development."

I don’t see how any kind of retail development, shiny or not makes a stadium a success..... especially with a transport strategy that has descended into farce, and with those enabling packages having already shrunk by over 30%?

"Probably not if it was for a redeveloped Goodison, especially with an even shinier new stadium 300 yards away."

LFC had to spend over a century facing the best stadium in the country by a margin.... It never deterred them from winning everything in site whilst living in a small, poor quality football ground. Fact is we are possibly only a few players short of more than matching them, and in anycase £78m could generate a massive architectural statement at the Park end/Bullens Rd. This could be the largest end stand in the UK bigger than any stand on the Park (including the new Kop). A clash of the titans type face-off..... this can never be achieved at out of sight, out of mind and out of the city kirkby amongst the tumble-weed and tesco trolleys

"Will anybody else come along ( a Russian Billionaire perhaps) and pull us out of this impasse? Not if they have any sense. Not if the first bill they are faced with is the cost of a new Stadium."
How did Portsmouth manage to attract investment, despite only having a 20,000 seater stadium that has no quality/history whatsoever?

"Grow up and hope Hazel Blears passes DK or otherwise we are absolutely fucked!"

We have been dragged into this folly which contravenes ALL local and regional planning legislation because we are the enabler not the other way around. Now you can only bank on Blears going against ALL her government’s own legislation to back something that has generated unanimous objections from ALL surrounding Authorities. No stadium planner would ever advocate locating a stadium out of town anymore, particularly not in a 2 team city. This projects ticks no boxes whichever angle you approach it. Poor stadium, in a poorly served location, enabling an ilconceived retail development over 5 times the size required for the area!! You couldn’t make it up!

Tony the same arguments will get repeated over & over until any one of the club, the yes vote or any one else in favour of kirkby answers them.......simple as.

For example how is Kirkby gonna generate more cash than our current location? With the same owners, yet further out of a major city, proven stories from around the world are all stating that out of town stadia were a short term fix & caused longer term issues......so how are we gonna generate more cash?

Yet another Kirkby debacle.

But let?s put a few facts forward to correct certain misnomers that have been quoted. (By the way, I am totally ignoring the dog shit and various other putdowns to a great city and wonderful stadium).

GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.

GP?s value on the market is estimated at £13 million and it is mortgaged for £15 million - no contribution toward Kirkby from that then.

Bellefield was estimated to sell for £8 million. We will be lucky to get £2 million on a reduced proposal if it gets PP.

Naming rights(including kit sponsorship which we already get) was estimated at £25 million.Experts say we will be lucky to get 2.5 million a year over 7 years (very different than upfront) and who?s to say we could not get naming rights at a "new" GP?

The cost of DK is £130 million plus and it will be an average stadium along the lines of Warrington Wolves and the Reebok(AAAAAGH).

It is estimated that EFC will get £52 million Retail enabling funds back. This may be optimistic in the current financial climate especially if the retail element has to be reduced further.

This level of retail enabling could IMO be matched at GP with a hotel, bars and restaurants with other commercial activities.

The cost of providing Corporate boxes is the same at GP as at Kirkby and I know which I feel will be more income producing.

There have been alternatives suggested GP, WHP, The Loop (only rubbished by KW and EFC?s advisors and some unknowledgable Blues).

David Roberts
I assume you?re a qualified Architect experienced in stadium development to feel you should criticise Trevor Skempton whose name and reputation need no explaining on here.

We are already £60 million in debt as opposed to £5 million when BK took over and operating losses are £10 million a year. This is despite the Rooney money.

Do you honestly trust this board to take our debts over 200 million in a stadium thats unfit to lace GP?s boots.

We all criticise the yanks for getting LFC into £200 miilion debt but compare our income to theirs and it puts things into perspective.

WE MUST NOT PROCEED WITH THE "CRIME OF THE CENTURY".

Eddie Banks, please read the deal we have agreed, and then come on here an tell me you think its good .irrespective of where the ground is...

Plain barmy,

KEIOC are home and away fans, they don?t need to put any more money into EFC than they already do!!

No lies you say?

None so blind ......

Eddie Banks have a read of this...

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/07-08/news/EGM_Resolution.pdf

And still some fans support this move, it beggars belief. We will be close on £200 million in debt if the white elephant is built, losing millions every season, extra revenue from the new stadium dont make me laugh. Please Eddie, give us just one good reason to move.

Plain and SIMPLE
GP does not cost hundreds of thousands a year to meet safety standards.

Gavin wrote to H&S about GP and was told GP always passed safety standards with ease.

Before you come on here writing tripe take a look at some other grounds like Luton or Wrexham then take a look at GP.

We were informed recently that they had lots of enquiries to buy the club but the buyers were’nt interested once they knew Liverpool were in the same city - Absolute Bullshit.

BK does not want to give up his toy and is doing anything (but the right thing) desperately trying to hold on to his position.

I?ve asked for along time for someone to defend the board. Well, my God you?re all here now. Disagree with you 100% but at least you?re taking part in a debate. By the way, it?s possible to oppose Kirby without being sentimental.

NEIL PEARSE, would you kindly explain why the Loop site is a joke when experts in the field of stadia construction have confirmed that it is a viable option?
Personally, because of its location on the edge of the CBD I have always thought that this option would be revisted when the Kirkby Fiasco gets called in.

I don?t give a fcuk where the dogshite is, if Everton are in the middle of it I?ll still go and support them!
The real baddies in all the arguments are those who state they will not follow the club to Kirkby. Those people have already lost their souls and deserve nothing better than to live out their days spouting spiteful invective about those bastards who attend matches in Kirkby while paying their Sky subscriptions to watch the mighty blues on the goggle box... I can stomach the arguments from impassioned No?s however much I disagree.. but I cannot and will not have any truck with those who would desert their club!

Tommy Gibbons how are Evertonian?s who will not go to Kirkby the real baddies in all this?

The vote was "Do you wish EFC to re-locate in Kirkby" so people who voted NO are well within their rights never to set foot in Kirkby because THAT?S WHAT THEY VOTED AGAINST!!!

Just because the YES vote got the majority the NO voters should automatically disregard what they believe in shall they?

"Desert their club" well many are of the belief that if this move goes ahead this won?t be the same club anymore anyway so my guess is they won?t give a toss.

Colin Fitzpatrick ??A £60M+ stadium naming rights deal has been forecast with any shortfalls being made up with a small amount of debt finance??

This is the part that cracks me up.

We will not get £60M for stadium naming rights. It is not going to happen... regardless of Terry Leahy/Fat Keith saying it is. It is a massively inflated figure designed to paper over the financial cracks which threaten to expose the crap they have fed us.

This is just my humble opinion of course.

[By the way Colin my post was not a dig at you, I was just quoting from your piece...as you rightly said many people have questioned the optimistic sponsorship figures.]

David Roberts,

Does that answer your questions, or have you more concerns that if we do not upsticks from the obvious hell hole that is GP to the bustling up and coming area of Kirkby we will fall apart?

I can?t beleive som of the comments in here. Really attacking Everton?s home? Has it really been that bad?! Have those people who stumble into dog shit and (God forbid have to que!!!), been crying themselves to sleep because our ground is so crap whilst the likes of Bolton, Middlesbrough etc have these stunning stadiums?

Equally though this crap about "your not an Evertonian if...", from both sides, for fuck sake grow up! Tony Williams? point normally does hold true, but it?s great to see counter arguments slightly more exapnded than a playground slanging match.

Please will some one answer my question from above???

John Lloyd the only people that should not could answer your question are the board, to quote BK he’s only the chairman and doesn’t know despite the board of any company being responsible for strategic decisions or the CEO and seeing how Pravda is still quoting the original figures for DK then your are more likely to become the pope. It’s not even like you are asking for a full blown business plan but some statement relating to the supposed revenue streams originally promised which have all now been removed; NB extra corporates was never quantifiable as you could never confirm potential given they have never been queueing up to come to the current ground and the new location doesn’t lend itself to anything beyond being new.

Thanks Gavin, says it all mate. the BK claiming he hasnt got a clue (from the Q&A recently) to most questions has got to be another clue/nail in the coffin for even the staunchest supportor.
He’s either genuinly clueless & has left the running of the club to that snake Wyness or he is fleecing supportors cos he knows they wont like the answers and god forbid he is not ’just like one of us’...........Useless, never mind changing our stadium and one of the biggest decisions in the clubs history I wouldnt trust this board to deliver the echo. Gobshites & again I dont wanna offend but if I do, so be it, but the people who bought into his lies & propaganda are as guilty as him for putting us in this position in the first place!!

I went to stadiums when they were so full with everybody standing and when the crowd surged you never knew where you would end up or in what condition; when the football ’hooligan’ violence was at its peak; when racism was rife and having to watch my back while trying to watch the team but it was the dog shit on the streets near Goodison that finally did it for me.......

What if we gave all the dog owners in walton, pooper scoopers ,would all the yes voters change their minds about kirkby.

If this gets called in we could always re-employ Wyness as a dogsnatcher!

His catchphrase could be "I?m looking for dog turds 24/7."