Interesting I think, however anyone voted. I didn't realise he was one of us, i.e. a supporter!

Well, the Destination Kirkby scheme as a whole ? i.e. the construction and then the resultant £400m retail amenities ? will benefit the economy but by the logic he applies to Everton in Walton, the club's medium- to long-term economic impact will be negligible.

If you believe that the Kirkby stadium will benefit Everton FC, then he gets to have his cake and eat it. If, like me, you think that Destination Kirkby is wrong for Everton on practically level, then he?ll be another "agent" complicit in the slow death of the club we all love.

The fact is that Kirkby is not the only option for Everton and hasn?t ever been. Redeveloping Goodison was a good enough option to have two proposals on the Kings Dock ballot but wasn?t even looked into this time around because it didn?t suit the Board?s agenda.

The Loop option, however problematic, was ridiculed by Wyness in the media and although club representatives did meet with Bestway, the NWDA and the Lord Mayor, it?s clear from Malcolm Carter?s astonishment at the way his proposal was treated that the club didn?t take that option seriously enough either.

Then there?s the apparent cover-up of the Sainsbury?s proposal for Walton Hall Park and the admission from all three of Kenwright, Wyness and Ross that redevelopment of Goodison will be back on the table of Kirkby falls through.

I cannot believe the letter that has been shown on the official EFC site. In a nutshell this clown who is MP of Walton is advocating us going!

Also, he is basically stating that we do nothing for the local community!

The laughable thing is are club instead of coming out and sticking up for itself, we are giving him a platform to indirectly slag the club off.

"The Liverpool Walton MP has also spoken of his bitter opposition to the bid to put tens of millions of pounds of European aid towards a new stadium for Everton FC at Kings Dock.

Everton’s move from Goodison Park to the prestige waterfront site will ’rip the heart out of North Liverpool’ he says’
Liverpool Daily Post, 11 Feb 2002

Well, I wondered how long it would take this site to launch a "counter attack" to the Kilfoyle letter being published on the EFC website. Predictably, instead of merely stating that Mr Kilfoyle?s views are open to question for reasons (a), (b) and (c) the usual "EFC PR machine" slur is used. I?m surprised that, as yet (but see the no doubt following posts) the words "propaganda", "spin and lies" etc words have not so far been used.

Is it not open to EFC to defend their position, and publicise any comment that may be in support? Do the anti Kirkby position persons have the sole entitlement to their opinion? Maybe I?ll be pleasantly surprised this time, and be proved wrong. Maybe a rational and without insult debate will ensue. (I happen to think Mr Kilfoyle is over simplistic in his arguments) But.. on this site.. I doubt it. Prove me wrong?.. please..?

Andy, I?m not sure why he?s changed his mind but the logic Kilfoyle puts forth in his letter deserves to be challenged because it directly contradicts his opposition when he faced the prospect of losing Everton to the Kings Dock six years ago.

What can be gained at this stage by Kilfoyle?s letter either being written or publicised unless it?s another PR exercise aimed at influencing the to sway the Government?s decision?

Before anyone criticises Kilfoyle - ?a person who states that DK is not in his constituency and therefore presumably nothing to do with him? - maybe they should remember many of the objections are coming from neighbouring authorities who are also ?not based in the constituency and also should have nothing to do with the decision?.

Kilfoyle states that the ?Tesco? scheme would be beneficial to the Kirkby area. He didn?t say ?Everton stadium?, therefore didn?t contradict himself. The ?Tesco scheme? comprises many parts.

Why are people surprised the club printed it? The overall aim is to get the plans passed without an enquiry at all costs. A dirty war is being fought, in which LCC and Cllr Bradley are doing - and I quote Bradley directly - "everything within their power to stop Everton leaving the city". This apparently also involves thwarting the club?s plans to sell Bellefield, going against multiple planning committees? advice that the sale should be passed. The club are simply giving a platform to someone with an axe to grind against LCC. When you share a common enemy, you pool your venom.

The club know exactly what they?re doing. Pressure placed on Blears, via a club media platform, but no direct club involvement or direct approval of anti-LCC comments. Kilfoyle did their dirty work for them.

As usual, Lyndon, a reasoned response. The only thing I would question, with respect is the oft quoted comment regarding " redevelopment of Goodison will be back on the table of Kirkby falls through." What Wyness said was that thre was no "plan B" regading development. What Kenwright said, under pressure was "well if Kirkby fails, plan B is we remain at Goodison". That is self evident, and not in any way contradictory. By implication it means "we have no alternative but to stay at Goodison until a "Plan C" can be found" That MIGHT involve redeveloping Goodison (please God it will, if the disgracefull LCC finally are shamed into giving us some support), but it might involve something completely different.

Well said Andy, my feelings exactly.

A very accomplished politician. Not only has two faces but speaks with forked tongue from both...

Andy,

Did the disgraceful LCC not offer us Kings Dock at less than half the cost to us of Kirkby?

And did we not sign an exclusivity agreement with Tesco and Knowsley that prevented us from talking to LCC for the last couple of years?

Andy, the rhetoric has changed. Before, Wyness? line was, by implication (he went to great pains to point out the maintenance costs and the safety concerns), that Plan B will be to remain at Goodison and do nothing except patch it up year on year.

Now, he, Kenwright and Ian Ross have admitted that they would be forced to reconsider actually redeveloping the ground. Had that been offered as an option in the ballot literature and recognised during the debate last August (instead of being categorically shut down as even feasible), I?m fairly confident that the result of the ballot would have been much closer.

I fully recognise that it was all part of the game, that the Board had an agenda with the Tesco/Kirkby scheme and wanted it to succeed, but there were plenty of fans who voted Yes who believed that there was simply no other option.

The last time I heard Warren Bradley on the radio, he was advocating a ground share with the R.S. His favourite soundbite was the usual " let’s all get together,and see what we can come up with."

No ideas, no concrete proposals, a load of piss and wind. LCC are not here to help E.F.C. They are struggling to keep our
Council Tax from being the most expensive in England. Any revenues from local people are desperately needed for piss-poor local services.

Andy,

My point was two-fold - not only that the letter itself was poor in it’s representation of the argument for the move and of EFC itself - but also that EFC were stupid enough to put such a lamentable and negative view of the club on its own website - hence the slur on the EFC PR machine’

Do you think that this letter portrays EFC in a positive light?

Peter Kilfoyle contradicts himself.....shocker!

He witch-hunted socialists from the Liverpool Labour Party
in the 1980?s then 20 years later wonders where have all the socialists gone!!

He is a hypocrite!

Agreed this letter is propaganda whether good or bad depends on your point of view.

Personally I?ll glad when the move is sorted one way or the other.

We will then be able to discuss what might have been at Tesco park or how much better it was at Goodison.

The rantings of a man who has clearly lost the plot. He must be the only MP in the history of parliament to actively encourage a major business to leave his constituency. If I could hide behind parliamentary privilige, I could maybe accuse him of something very sinister regarding him and his old school tie link with Leahy.

Just shows you that, whatever your politics, you should never trust a politician.

Rather than accuse LCC of doing nothing, I would have thought he would encourage Everton to employ more local people and provide more for the local community.

Well, you read the comment on here about Kilfoyle’s letter - and then you read the letter. Not quite the same thing.

I was expecting something completely incoherent and nonsensical, when in fact the major points he makes are pretty simple and sensible. Basically - the economy in Liverpool is slowing down significantly, especially in the construction sector, and a very major new project in Kirkby, right next to his constituency, would provide an economic boost for the region, and would benefit his constituents. Crazy, huh! (I suppose so if you have adopted the view that Kirkby is somewhere near Milton Keynes and utterly disconnected from the city of Liverpool...)

The repeated swipes at the LCC are a bit overplayed in my opinion, but certainly accurate over recent years. Kilfoyle is basically saying that a huge construction project right next door to his constituency is going to be of more benefit to his constituents than non-existent projects in the city of Liverpool (because Everton can’t afford them, Tesco is not building them, and the LCC won’t support or enable them). Oh yeah, the man is out of his mind!

The article in question is an utter disgrace.
Mr Kilfoyle, you are a disgrace.
Everton FC are a disgrace.
Reading the letter has left me speechless!

RIP Everton FC

My reaction is if every thing is fine and dandy about the move (I am a no voter) why would the club give this cretin a platform? I have never trusted him so I am not surprised about his two-faced comments.

Well said Paul Ramsey.

Can Everton FC as a club sink any lower?

Makes sense to me :
the problem in 2001 for Peter Kilfoyle was the prospect of LFC moving to Speke and EFC moving to the Kings Dock - thus removing the 2 main private sector drivers from Walton, leaving it as a wasteland.

Now he has LFC building on Stanley Park and regenerating the area, plus he can now support EFC moving to Kirkby - generating yet more investment right next to his constituency - from where his constituents will also benefit.

Better from his perspective than EFC limping along in its current stadium adding very little value and income to the area. Can't see a contradiction there.

Happy days for him - has his cake and eats it .

More faces than the Town Hall Clock, but that’s politicians I guess.

I remember writing to my MP in 1989 asking him to vote against Football ID cards, a now long forgotten Thatcher idea to combat hooligans as there would inevitably be games where the delay in entering would cause a crush and possible danger. This was poo-pooed in his reply as if I was totally stupid. 3 weeks later Hillsborough happened and the ID card scheme was hastily scrapped.

Roy Coyne, do you mean Cretin or are you saying that Mr Kilfoyle is a native of the Greek island of Crete? Sorry, I couldn’t resist! :)

Or is that supposed to be a Cretian. Guess if he used to live there, you could call him an Ex-Cretian.....Maybe that’s waht you really meant? ;)

This is without doubt a strange old letter from Peter Kilfoyle there are threads of facts in his letter about the economic impact to the local area; but as with everything from politician its all in the detail does Everton moving out of Liverpool have an impact on the Economic impact on Liverpool as a whole?

Yes but only very very small. However would Everton Leaving Goodison have an impact on the immediate local area - absolutely.

Take some examples - a school in Derby that lost £6000 per year due to the stadia moving from the Baseball ground also businesses in the area also indicated that had a 90% drop in income.

This leaves me wondering why a politician would not understand the major impact to local businesses and the community and would then use that argument to promote Kirby.

Also if you get the chance have a read of the link below; It basically reviews this very subject in detail but with an American bias but given the tenancy to move clubs and stadia more frequently in the states it proves some telling data on the financial and social impacts of a stadium move.

"Economic impact of new stadiums"
http://snipurl.com/30c15

Also...

Funny how you can’t comment on the official site also eh?

Neil Pearse, this may come as news to you so you had better brace yourself.
There is almost daily talk of recession and the alleged "Credit crunch". I suspect that some folks are struggling all over the country to make ends meet.
The construction sector is nearly on its knees country wide not just in Liverpool.
What better time for the club to decide to move !

Don’t know what kind of comic books he’s been reading. I read the Beano for years and still know nothing about economics.

This just shows how desperate the club is. Does he have facts and figures of revenue gained and lost as a result of this move. If he?s so good at economics he?s in the wrong job. And where would people from his constituency gain, they wouldn?t get any work in the construction as there?s more cranes and building sites in liverpool than ever but not many merseysiders on them. Once built all the new jobs in the stadium would go to eastern europeans on minimum wage. And if he says local trade will benefit, who will be paying for this well us when we have to buy shit food and drink because there?s no where else to go. As for these businesses who say it?s not worth opening on match day I challenge him to name them. For the club to print this doesn?t surprise me but nowt does with the fantom of the main stand and upside down head. (Sorry to get personel with BK as i think his heart is in the right place but he?s out of his league, as for the other fella he could be gone anytime)

Don’t follow you John. We all know there is a credit crunch and that construction is being badly hit. That’s presumably why Kilfoyle thinks a huge new construction project would be good for the area at this time. Your point is?

I stepped back from this article and looked at it from a number of perspectives, PR, political, economic or just plain common sense.

I tried to balance off the intent, which was to lobby the decision for a move and not to call inthe DK project, against the mud slinging opportunity against the LCC

Every one is entitled to his opinion, we are entitled to our view on a stated opinon as seen in theposts so far.

But Mr Kilfoyle's letter is disturbing for its rhetoric, its content, its logic and its conclusions. That Everton FC have elected to print it in its defence is appalling, it effectively tells the club we don't want you here, we don't value you here and all you do is make money for the pubs.
Yet they support the letter?

Look at the constituents for Walton who live around Goodison, businesses that have the passing support and businesses that depend on the club. I am sure they would not view his comments with such refreshing honesty (sic).

What in God's name has happened to the club? Why is the council, its own MP so happy for the club to go?

What the hell is going on here? There are more vested interests on this bandwagon that everyone wants a bit. And the club is quite happy to let people know they don?t care if the club is shown in a disgraceful light.

IF... I repeat, IF the DK is called in and the project is halted / abandoned, the decision to promote this letter should be attached to the resignations of Ian Ross and WK for bringing the club into disrepute.

But then IF the project is called in I suspect that both parties have a positive spin plan to promote Goodison as a world class venue too.



LCC must be seething.

Peter Kilfoyle is a kopite... getting free tickets to the Champions League final from no other than Rick Parry. Who cares what he says...

I’m with Christine.

Nobody comes out with any credit and its yet another example of the shamefully amateurish way our club is being run.

Ian Ross needs to join Wyness and Black Bill on the hangman’s gallows.

Maybe Kilfoyle will need 2 nooses as we dont know which head he’ll be wearing on the day.

No particular liking of Kilfoyle but the most pertinent FACT is where he states there has been no help at all from LCC. It really is that simple, and those who state otherwise must have seen something neither I nor the majority of people in this city have seen with regards to plans from LCC to help EFC.

I quote
"Arguments of regeneration are misleading in relation to Everton?s place in my constituency. Its presence has arguably been an inhibiting factor in attempts to regenerate the area. At best, its role is neutral. The council obviously agrees. Otherwise, why would it have tried to relocate the club to the Kings Dock - further from my constituency that the proposed Kirkby site?"

.......
That statement says it all, he is effectively saying Everton are the reason that Walton has not been regenerated (not Liverpool), even though in 2001 he was bemoaning the effect on local businesses if we were to leave .... Worst of all, Ian Ross by sanctioning the publication of this letter has effectively agreed that Everton FC?s presence in Walton is of detriment to the area but not LFC? Forgive me if I?m wrong but isn?t Ian Ross?s position at Everton one where he should promote the club, defend it against such dubious attacks?

Where did Mr Kilfoyle receive his information to back up his claim? What studies were conducted in the area? Or is this pure conjecture on his behalf? Or as Richard Kemp said in 2001, does Mr Kilfoyle actually know what's going on in his own constituency?

Guys, this is really much simpler than you are all making it sound.

For Kilfoyle, he is simply standing up for the interests of his constituents. As Paul points out above, he already has one major construction project on Stanley Park, and is trying to support another one right next door to his constuituency in Kirkby. Both will generate jobs and economic activity for his constituents. What’s the mystery? (He’s also apparently settling some old political scores with the LCC, but, hey, that’s what happens in the real political world.)

For Everton, they are trying not to get the project they believe is vital to the club - Kirkby - from being called in. So they publish positive support from the local (Labour) MP on their official site. Is it news to some of you that the Board and Management of the club favour moving to Kirkby? Do you expect them to just sit on their hands while what they think is best for the club is derailed?

Shock! Horror! MP acts in his constituents’ interests! Everton try to sustain the Kirkby project! Both are happy to join forces in attacking their common enemy (LCC)!

Neil, My point is that if ever there was/is a wrong time to consider moving then this is it !
Unless there is something, set in stone, that dictates that the costs of this project are capped then I can only see further problems for Everton Football Club.
Surely you can see that ?
I also believe that the construction is to be carried out by Barr Construction. Do you also honestly believe that they are going to hire thousands of people from the local community ? There maybe a few granted but certainly not on the scale that the MP suggests.
This is all irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with the move.
Now is not the time to consider a move whether you/I like it or not.

Neil isn’t Project Jennifer down in Great Homer Street and surrounds a construction project? Wouldn’t plan B; a rebuild/upgrade of GP, not be a construction project? Isn’t the Stanley Park stadium that has now broken ground a construction project? Aren’t the ongoing work in the city centre construction projects? Surely construction projects within the city be more beneficial to the city than outside it?

Somebody call the cops.....

A policitician giving a soundbite to make him look all pally pally to his constituants and EFC printing his letter on their website when it goes along with want they want!! Oh the horror!

It?s funny how everyone has jumped on Kilfoyle's back, yet when the "totally honest and trustworthy" Bradley puts out a soundbite, it is taken as Gospel.

Neil
As you’re obviously not the kind of person to take things at face value you will have investigated, as Mr Kilfoyle has certainly done, all the socio-economic implications of the proposed relocation.
Would you, kindly, give us simplewicks an insight into your findings? (as you know, in your area of expertise, it’s easy to spout hot air without validation)
How many Walton voters will be employed on the building, and subsequent facilitating of the Kirkby stadium? What will be the average increase per household income in the Walton area, projected year-on-year? (obviously, you may exclude the upper and lower percentiles in this figure, if you have not yet completed and verified your findings)

Kilfoyle’s comments are misguided, contradictory and almost laughable for their inaccuracy and lack of logic. Praising the economic benefits to Kirkby of a grossly oversized development that contravenes all planning legislation, and according to all independent studies will greatly jeopardise the success of the city-centre’s new retail development that we have waited for for decades, and is intended to help transform our city into a major regional retail centre. The city-centre is by far the city’s biggest employer and wealth generator, with residents from all over Merseyside (including Knowsley/Kirkby) dependent on its success. How can anyone advocate setting up direct competition for these new shops from within before they have even had a chance to establish the city as a retail destination? Grosvenor have invested over a £1bn pounds to help create what will be the biggest city centre outside of London. This has helped encourage further massive investment in commercial and residential developments in and around the city-centre. None of this would have happened if Grosvenor had known aggressive competition would be allowed so close. Retail is struggling as it is, with the new downtown developments needing the full footfall from their whole catchment. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!??

The Myths about LCC are just a joke. What do people expect, LCC to build it for them? LCC to get new designs drawn up for them? EFC have not approached LCC once in this whole debacle to ask for ANY guidance regarding ANY site, including the one that GP stands on. This is all readily proven by contacting the planning officer responsible for GP. The Head of planning, the heads of both main parties in the council and head architect Trevor Skempton are ALL EFC season ticket holders who have attempted to open dialogue on all the options and expanding footprint etc. They even offered to put together a development team to help deliver the Loop, backed by BESTWAY and world renowned stadium designers HOK. Not to mention the real stadium for "practically nothing" on the prestigious Kings Dock. Where’s the rebuke for that sorry episode, or is that conveniently forgotten and swept under the carpet like all the other fabrications to date?>

Tony
How is an advocation to ’?rip the heart out of North Liverpool? (Kilfoyle, 2002) making this MP look pally-pally with his consituents? Or is pally-pally local slang for a knobhead?

More interesting than the letter itself is the timing of the letter. What is the point of stirring the pot when the decision has already been made? Unless you already know what that decision is.

Depressing.

Come on! if you had donated £255k to the Labour Party wouldn?t you expect (demand!)the club?s constituency MP to show a bit of support? With all the cosying up to the ?right people? Bankrupt Bill does, I shall be amazed if he doesn?t get exactly what he?s paid for!

Alan,
There are a handful of labour councillors and MP’s connected with Kirkby/Knowsley. Meanwhile, there are dozens of Labour MP’s and councillors representing over 1 million residents in all the areas where the authorities are objecting to this scheme. Many in marginal seats where similar retail schemes already being built or in place will be threatened by this development. Grosvenor are also very well connected and have influence, would government ministers really want to face a legal challenge from one of the richest men in the UK? IMO, the political card is very dodgy ground, especially when the objections are so numerous and legislation so glaringly ignored.

I see the usual apologists are out in force - this time swithcing their attention to defending the indefensible Kilfoyle and his club sponsors.

It?s one thing that a loose cannon like Kilfoyle gets his usual dose of foot in mouth, but quite another when the club itself sees fit to welcome such an attack the on itself.

So here we are the morning after. Picking up the Daily Post I see the council?s ruling and opposition parties have slammed Klfoyle. In other words, it?s now left to councillors to uphold the credibility and integrity of Everton FC due the club?s abrogation of that responsibility.

Can there ever have been a more stark reminder of how this current Board of Directors are not fit to govern this football club of ours?

I have personal experience of dealing with Peter Kilfoyle in a business context. I found him unreliable, slippery and mendacious - a man concerned with preserving his own skin/job/position above any other consideration. Also, during the time I was in contact with him ? both face-to-face and in other forms of communication ? in spite of us both being Evertonians, and my frequent promptings to discuss team matters, he consistently ignored all intros to chewing the fat about the club and the team. And I was in contact with him over several months. The conclusion I drew was that he wasn?t a real fan.

Consequenlty, I personally wouldn?t take anything he says at face value and as a life-long Evertonian, I would urge all Evertonians to ignore anything he says about the club. He?s not one of us. I?d bet my mortgage on there being another agenda behind his recent words.

A few months back, I wrote to him on a couple of occasions and I?m still not sure if the replies were from someone else messing about or actually from him.

If they were from him, they?re staggering responses given that he?s an MP.

I don?t claim my letters were anything other than angry rants, but...well I don?t represent anyone other than myself.

Anyway, for anyone interested, here?s how it went.

Dear Sir.

Your unwillingness to back keeping Everton in Walton/Liverpool, was/is in my opinion a disgrace. However, as I believe 99% of all politicians to be disgusting, self-serving turds, it was certainly no surprise. To hear your bleating on ?Superlambanana? however, WAS a surprise (that said, I have to take my hat off to you for brass-neck). Talk about arse-backwards priorities! Can you hear yourself? - "The football club in my constituancy (that I ?support?) can leave, even though this will affect the businesses of many of my constituents.....however a big yellow lamb, with a banana for it?s arse, that is NOT in my constituancy, MUST not go to Manchester" EH!!? WHAT!? Seriously, is this just a profile thing? - "MP, Peter Kilfoyle said, blah blah bluster blah outrage blah..." (voila! - your name and a picture of your big red mug in the Echo...for the 75,678th time). - Christ almighty! New Labour, the political party that did away with politics. EJ Ruane.

He responds (or..someone from his address does)

Your ignorance is sublime. Obviously , you do not live in Walton. You are probably a? faux? scouser from outside the city. With your brains , I am surprised you are not a kopite

My response to ?his? response.

Touché Oscar! You?re right, I do not live in Walton....and your point is? As for being a Kopite? I?m not, but if I was, I?d make sure that, JUST LIKE YOU, I did absolutely nothing to stop Everton leaving Walton. As for being a ?faux? Scouser from ?outside the city?, well I am from ?inside? the city and though now living and working in Dublin (due to shithouse politicians not providing enough jobs in Liverpool the 70?s and 80?s) I am a season ticket holder at Goodison and FLY back for EVERY home game. By the way, do you know what ?patriotism? is the last refuge of? EJ Ruane. PS: Presumably ?faux? is an old Scouse word?

?His? 2nd response

You know NOTHING of the situation. Get wise.The club is a private company. If you choose to delude yourself that it is (a) a positive economic asset in this area , you are wrong. At best , it is neutral (b) or it will respond in this day and age to romantic nostalgia , you do not understand its business plan. Get a life - it is only a game and Kirkby is scouse - somewhat more than Dublin. Finally - for this correspondence is ended - don?t you know from your intermittent visits, that Liverpool is European Capitol of Culture? Hence , in this nouveau beau monde , we are all au fait with a raised level of language and consciousness.

My 2nd response.

Get wise?? ME!? Incredible! (you were obviously taught to debate by an extra in from a James Cagney movie). How ?wise? do you think it is to say ?you know nothing? and ?you do not understand?, without even ATTEMPTING to substantiate your ?arguments?? NB: Here?s how grown-ups do it - ?You know nothing of the situation BECAUSE..? or ?you do not understand BECAUSE..?- It?s really easy.....unless of course you?ve got piss-weak arguments to start with. Also, to say ?it?s ?only? a game? is meaningless, because what football ?is?, is for each individual to decide. As for me ?deluding myself that the club is an economic asset?, well this is VERY easy charge for me to answer. I ? didn?t ? say ? it ? was. See, that was easy (read back what I ACTUALLY wrote - if you are dyslexic, forgive me!). What I DID say was that your (repeat YOUR) constituents would be affected and they will.
If you don?t believe me - go and ask the family who run the Goodison Supper Bar. Actually, while you?re there, ask how they feel about THEIR MP?s performance (do I live in Walton? No...and I don?t live in China, but I know human rights abuses are going on there) . As for what I know about the ?business plans? of Everton FC, well admittedly, that?s very little. Mind you, that?s to be expected, as Kenwright, Wyness and the other inept dolts who ?run? the club, tell their ?customers? nothing. As for what you obviously think is a dagger to my heart - ?Kirkby is Scouse, somewhat more than Dublin?, try and get the following into your thick skull ? the issue is not about where I live, it?s about where Everton DO/DON?T live. Can you get you pea-brain around the difference? You finish with ?don?t you know Liverpool is the Capital of Culture??. Well...yes, I Did see something in the Echo, but you wouldn?t know it walking around Walton. It looked like a depressed area in 91 when you became MP.....and it still does. You must be VERY proud. I suggest you stick to Westminster and picking up your £150,000 PA for debating how much pork should go into euro-sausages, etc etc. EJ Ruane. PS: NOW this correspondence is ended!

An ill-thought out statement from a Nu-Labour MP ?
Surely some mistake :0)

Paul, lets put it this way, he is my MP and I certainly didn’t vote for him.

All MP/Politicians are liars and untrustworthy. I am not defending Kilfoyle just pointing out that it is quite ironic that some people, as per the same vein as David Kiely, all the doom mongerers, are jumping on the lying Kilfoyle but gooble up any crumb of a soundbite from the whiter than white Bradley.

They are just as bad as each other, as someone said above two faced and they both speak with forked tongue

Mendacious... good wordage.

I?m startled that people on here are overlooking that the MP said:

• Everton do not employ enough local people


• Everton have an "at best[...]neutral" effect on Walton


• The prescence of Everton is an inhibiting factor in attempts to regenerate the area

They are all criticisms of the club and the club actually asked Peter Kilfoyle for permission to reproduce the letter on the website because he didn?t oppose the move to Kirkby.

It seems that they are not more concerned about getting a message out that Goodison Park can?t be redeveloped rather than publish positives about the ground move.

EJ...Brilliant work in pricking the pompous balloon
Laughed out loud

For anyone thinking that Kilfoyle is fulfilling a noble role in serving the people, I?d like to offer the view that it's probably due more to (self-serving) party politics as Knowsley is a Labour council.

I read his joke of a column each week in the freesheet; the man is so condescending its untrue.

Interesting how Peter Kilfoyle & Warren Bradley choose to trumpet thier Evertonian credentials when talking about Kirkby.
I find the very notion that the supposed football allegiances of local politicians might play any part in governance of thier constituencies quite disturbing
That said, with supporters like these, who needs kopites?

Tony Williams - I point out the FACT that only LCC (ruling group and opposition councillors) are the only institutional force backing Everton to stay within the city and that?s me being pro-Bradley and just being the other side of the same coin as the club?s apologists?

I?m sorry to puncture your dystopian ?all politicians are equally shite? world view, but, on this issue at least, it?s not really true here is it?

I wrote to Kilfoyle re Goodison Park being redeveloped and got the same response as EJ. You must not live in Liverpool etc etc. Very poor.

I think it is quite simple for him - He gets a new stadium on Stanley Park to keep the local economy going ? football and concerts etc ? and gets rid of Everton FC out of the city. Please call this nonsense in and let us all take a step back and look at the real alternatives.

When will the decision be made? I have been on edge all week. The dark side nagging at me - what if it is not called in, what then?

For once we have Evertonians in positions of power within the systen including the Culture Secretary and possible future Labour party leader Andy Burnham. We have to take advantage of this - any other club would have done so already.

Keep the faith. Keep fighting.Oldest club in the city and it should stay that way.
NSNO

Paul.

I?m the same as you mate. Nervous as fuck!! What?s going on??? Are we finding out today or not?? If so when and where can we find out the decision???

Someone help please!!

Lyndon,
Kilfoyle was against EFC going to KD because nothing would be left behind. DK is different because there will be a huge development on the doorstep of his contituency. Where?s the contradiction/ hypocrisy?

Same here,

Read this thread and letter at about 2am - absolutely appauled by the "self-serving turd"’s (nice) contradictory letter. Not had time to see why the other projects he speaks of have been postponed, but isn’t there a grave likelyhood that if DK is greenligted we could end up with a stalled project anyway, therefore not providinng those promised jobs and further putting EFC in the shit?!

Been checking this and other sites frantically... but then if we’re not going to find out til Monday then it’s going to be a long old weekend.

David, so Warren "I didn?t know there was a problem with the Beatles Festival anyway it has nothing to do with me" Bradley is not as "shite" as Kilfoyle?

I have my view on the "out to get as much as they can for themselves" policticians and I have still to find any reason to change my view, so yes in my view that "all politicians are equally shite", is true here, because it is my view, nothing more.

Chad - Know what you mean about a long weekend, however years I go, I worked in an office in London and everyone there knew that bad news (sackings, redundancies, etc) came late on a Friday afternoon.

The reason being that the boss was a lily-livered shithouse (coincidence?) and felt that if he gave the news at this time, he could almost immediately leg-it and hide for a couple of days while the heat ?died down?.

Consequently, to this day, I still get nervous when I hear any news is going to be ?delivered? between 4:00pm and 5:00pm on a Friday.

Paul L, read the post from Matt D: he finds it disturbing that politicians should let their football allegiances get in the way of objectivity ? and rightly so... or is it different if they might be opposed to DK?

I am a resident of Walton and also have several members of my family as well as other neighbours who work at EFC. I think it's a disgrace that Kilfoyle has actually decided to write a pro-Kirkby letter to the government department involved in the decision over the DK planning application. This area of North Liverpool is already run down and neglected, if EFC move out to Kirkby it will be devastating for the local economy and Walton will be a ghost town. Kilfoyle you should resign.

Why does everyone believe this is a propaganda stunt? Maybe everything that is said in the letter is true, people just don't want to believe it. What exactly have LCC done to keep us in the city???? The only thing they are doing is to block our move to Kirkby, they still aren?t offering any viable alternative are they????

Karl Masters, thanks for the lesson mate but it would be more beneficial if you could teach me to type. I usually do spell check but to be honest I was in a hurry. Still I managed to get my vote right, even if we lose the vote.

Brilliant EJ.

After reading his responses I can’t help but like Peter Kilfoyle. I’d have probably binned your letter or made it into a paper plane if I wanted to be constructive with it. Loved him taking the piss out of you

Response from Ian Ross

Given the recent article on the EFC website by Peter Kilfoyle MP, I decided to email Ian Ross to ask him for his views - after receiving a response indicating that he was on holiday (no return date mind you!) I also received this: I have re-ordered the mails in chronological order

Sent: 17 July 2008 20:42
To: Ian Ross
Subject: Recent Club Publicity

Mr Ross,

As an Everton fan I regularly visit the EFC website for news and information about the club etc; and it was during a visit today that I noticed the article concerning a letter from Peter Kilfoyle MP: which is what causes me to write to you today.

It is my belief that the image that is often portrayed in the media of EFC is not one that EFC would either choose or appreciate ? it is certainly not a match for the image that I have of the club. Either way, I would expect that EFC would be at great pains to express the image it chooses for itself as often and as strongly as it can ? especially in those areas where it has total control ? namely its own website.

Nevertheless, EFC have chosen to re-print a letter from Mr Peter Kilfoyle MP which paints EFC in a very bad light ? "Everton's only option for a new stadium ? and they desperately need one..." followed by "Everton's turnover has virtually no impact on Walton...", in addition to "Its [EFC] presence has arguably been an inhibiting factor in attempts to regenerate the area. At best, its role is neutral.".

This article makes one wonder what benefit EFC brings to anybody in any capacity ? in fact, perhaps the club should simply close, it would after all benefit Walton's attempts at regeneration ... according to Mr Kilfoyle. I can only wonder at why EFC have printed this letter at all ? firstly, the vote to move has already been taken and (unless EFC are completely out of touch with its fanbase) EFC should be aware that there is little chance (or need) of changing the minds of the fans now; and secondly the letter itself paints EFC in such a negative light that this could hardly be considered good PR anyway ? in addition to which it is only on the EFC website (for the present) so exactly whom is the target audience for this little message? Perhaps those few fans who do not wish the move to go ahead will be convinced by Mr Kilfoyle's arguments, all of which are strongly supported by facts and figures.

Is it the policy of the EFC PR department to represent EFC is as negative a light as possible? Does EFC hope to change the minds of the fan's who voted No to the move? Do EFC believe that this is positive PR?

Thank you in advance for your response to my questions.

Yours sincerely,
Rupert Sullivan
________________________

Rupert,

We printed the letter as, self-evidently, we are anxious to avoid a Government call-in on the Destination Kirkby project...as you will have noted, Peter Kilfoyle not only supports said project but also criticises the lack of aid/assistance/action from Liverpool City Council......sometimes we, as a football club, cannot say what it is we might care to say - so it is always useful to have someone credible and erudite willing to say it for you... Peter's comments are spot-on as far as I am concerned.

In my view the letter does NOT portray EFC is a negative light - it portrays LCC in a negative light.

Why would we be attempting to change the minds of those who voted against the move to Kirkby?? That would be pointless and futile; we are busy enough as it is.

Ian

From: R S
Sent: 18 July 2008 11:16
To: Ian Ross
Subject: RE: Recent Club Publicity

Ian.

Although I can well understand that EFC do not wish the plans for the move to Kirkby to be 'called in' I must admit to being dubious of the impact gained from publishing a letter such as this on the EFC website. The letter will obviously be re-printed elsewhere, however the manner in which it is re-reported will be mainly beyond your control, and a letter from an MP saying that he doesn't want a football club in his constituency is hardly flattering I would have thought.

Although it is possible that should the project be 'called in' the portrayal of LCC as unhelpful (through third parties) could bring pressure to bear on them to provide further assistance in future; surely there is also a risk that EFC are burning their bridges? After all, even with the comments coming from Mr Kilfoyle, EFC have condoned them by publishing them: I fail to see how an alienated LCC helps EFC. Especially given that LCC could argue that they were not in a position to help because of the exclusivity deal which EFC signed and which to the best of my knowledge is still in force.

Thanks again for your attention, if you could please elaborate on this matter I would be very grateful.

Rupert Sullivan

RE: Recent Club Publicity
Friday, 18 July, 2008 12:22 PM
From: "Ian Ross"

we beg to differ......end of story really

ian

I admit to not having an enormous amount of confidence in the EFC PR machine, but this current exchange leaves me astounded - if not quite speechless...

Basically, if any of this shower were in a brewery, would they in fact be able to get pissed up????

I am beginning to suspect not...

Tony - After I had had the ’piss taken out of me’ by Kilfoyle, I had to have therapy, such is the man’s wit and ability to cut one to the quick with an expression or a well-chosen word.

’Get wise’ for example hurt like (and I don’t usually go for bad language) billy-O!

I’ll certainly think twice in the future before engaging with this genius!




(by the way bollock-brains, how DO you make a paper plane with an email?)

EJ are you as sweet natured in all you do in life or is this a condition that you have in common with our keeper? What I was referring to was that if anyone wrote to me by email or letter or even carrier pigeon like you did then I’d probably not bother with wasting my time on a reply. Nothing personal but if you’re looking for a constructive response from him then it helps to start off aiming at that level.



Sorry for my misunderstanding but when you used the word letter I assumed you meant a letter!

As usual, you No guys want to have everything all ways round, so far as it suits you in attacking Kirkby and the Board.

This time it is - Kirkby is (from Tom) a "grossly oversized development" (i.e. VERY BIG), but Phil wants me to prove in great detail that it will generate economic activity in the area. So is it a big construction project or isn’t it? Well - it is when we want it to be called in, and it isn’t when we don’t want it to be the case that it will generate local economic activity.

I guess it’s possible that one of the largest retail developments this country has ever seen won’t generate ANY spill over jobs or income into the right next door constituency - isn’t it?

The personal venom directed at Kilfoyle may or may not be justified. But in saying that a huge new construction development will benefit his constitutents he is simply asserting the blindingly obvious. And of course he knows as well as anyone else who has been paying any attention that there is no chance of a similar sized development (apart from Stanley Park) taking place inside his own constituency.

"we beg to differ......end of story really"

...thanks for that detailed elaboration, you twat!

Setting aside all the other issues - Kilfoyle was stating a fact when he said that LCC’s claim that they didn’t want to lose over £50M per year from the local economy of Walton was "comic book economics" the loss to Walton (his own constituency don’t forget) would be a fraction of that.

He was making the point that if you remove the local blinkers & look at the regional economics - the Kirkby regeneration project would be of far greater benefit to the region than the loss of Goodison was detrimental to Walton.

Which ever side of the fence you sit in terms of our move - what he saying from an economic viewpoint can’t be argued with.

EJ Ruane

Well, first you print the e-mail. Then take the printed page and fold it down the middle. Open it up again and fold the corners in at one end to about a third of its length. Then fold it back along the centre line followed by a reverse fold parallel to the centre line to make the wings. Personally, I like to turn up the ends of the wings at a right angle as this adds stability in flight and a bit of chewy stook to the nose (or blue- tak will suffice) seems to add duration to the flight. You can do this with letters from MPs as well as articles from Warren Bradley in the echo. Bradley?s tend to fly higher as they have their own hot air.

Hope this helps.

Tony, you ask if I have a ’condition in common with our Keeper’

No, as far as I know, Tim Howard suffers from Tourettes Syndrome - a condition that does not (as my condition does) require him to have to respond on websites to inconsistent dullards who write without thinking about a single word they’re writing, OR (apparently) reading the bleeding posts they’re responding to.

You say

"Nothing personal but if you?re looking for a constructive response from him then it helps to start off aiming at that level"

My condition forces me to respond.

I admitted my letters were angry rants and at NO point did I say I was looking for a constructive response. These are what is called ’assumptions’ on your part.

(See how this works?)

I printed his responses because as he’s an MP, I was surprised by them (again clue was there - "staggering responses").

At one stage you say ’nothing personal’ and finish with ’loved him taking the piss out of you’.

Do you know what personal means?

Don’t get me wrong, If you or anyone else thinks I’m a prick and/or annoys you, I’m absolutely fine with this, but don’t expect me not to respond.

(there seems to be a few like you who have a ’pop’ then get all confused when someone responds with interest)

PRIIIIIIICK!!!! (shit.....maybe I DO have Tourettes!)

Neil,
I was querying how the MP for Walton had balanced the short-term economic benefit to an unknown number of his constituents being employed in the building of a stadium in a neighbouring borough against the long-term benefits of the club remaining in his constuency.
One presumes that, to make such a momentous decision, he had access to a full project appraisal and cost/benefit analysis etc.
If he hasn’t used every such assistance in coming to his conclusion, he could be accused, by ungenerous people, of merely being a gobby, self-serving pompous bag of wind
Unlikely, I admit, for such an experienced politician

WHO THE FU...........sorry.

Who is ’Baroness’ Andrews OBE?

First time I’ve heard of her and as it turns out, she decides the future of Everton FC.

According to tonight?s Echo...

"Mr Kilfoyle made his thoughts known in a strongly-worded letter to Baroness Andrews OBE who will decide whether or not to call in the Everton scheme"

Oh well....that’s ok.

Sorry for a minute there I thought it was something a bit...y’know....’mad’.

baroness.andrews@communities.gsi.gov.uk

Phil, I think the response to this has already been made. With Liverpool (probably) undertaking a massive new development on Stanley Park, he is no longer so worried about the immediate Walton area, and ’can have his cake and eat it’ by supporting an even more massive development near by.

You really don’t need to do detailed calculations to see how that would benefit his constituents. TWO huge developments... or just one??
It’s reasonably straightforward. As Steve Taylor pointed out above, however you judge Kilfoyle’s motives, or whatever side you are on DK, this is hardly very contentious.

I wonder whether Kilfoyle has so got under the skin of so many because he is rather dramatizing the reality that Kirkby is not some isolated and remote place on a distant planet a long way from Liverpool, but is (ahem)... right next door to Walton? Indeed, economically speaking, they are basically the same area.

One thing to bear in mind, which I don’t think anyone else has posted, is that Kilfoyle is a Labour MP.
Liverpool City Council is LibDem controlled and the bitterness between two parties locally seems to be increasingly bitter.

The mind boggles. Worse than the letter itself, worse than OUR club publishing it, worse even than the Ian Ross emails (courtesy of Rupert Sullivan) if genuine (I say if because? what kind of responses are the ones he gave!?!), worse than all this - are the genuine Evertonians, the pure blue blood Toffees who still argue that there is nothing rotting in Denmark about the whole desperation Kirkby project. With each ill thought-out back-firing PR stunt such as this Kilfoyle letter, surely the ignorant ? nay negligent ? management of our club becomes more obvious.

I really am tired of arguing with my fellow Blues. The shyte are the enemy, not each other. So if you could all see what's burningly blindly staring us all in the face by going ahead with DK, it would save me a few stomach ulcers.

Neil - the argument is not that the letter is contentious, it is that the letter devalues EFC and is completely contradictory. He is saying we equal zero to Walton and we should move somewhere else (where we won't be zero I guess....).

Joe and others - Kilfoyle?s letter is not really about Everton that much at all. He?s saying that he?d rather have a huge (Tesco) development project right next door to his constituency (even if Everton move), than no such project and Everton still sitting in GP, not making that much of an economic difference to his constituents. What?s contradictory about this? It?s actually plain common sense. But it?s primarily about what?s best for his constituents, not what?s best for Everton FC (he?s an MP not Everton Chairman). He surely has every right to say such things?

A stronger argument is against the club using Kilfoyle?s letter on their official site. Obviously this does indeed reflect the fact that the club is desperate not to have DK called in (and also that they are at a state of war with the LCC). But, given that they obviously believe that without DK the club will be in a very unattractive financial position (I happen to agree), why on earth shouldn?t they be trying to make sure it doesn?t get called in?

Kilfoyle and the club and Tesco and LCC and Knowsley (and KEIOC and the No voters) are all fighting their respective corners in a very high stakes game in which each believes they have a lot to gain and a lot to lose. Depending on where you stand, you will be opposed to the behaviour and arguments of one party or another. But I have no idea why anybody should be so shocked. This is not the teddy bears' picnic.

Neil,

I do think that the letter is about Everton - specifically about its ability to compete in the current financial world of the Premier League. To me, the letter has very strong and negative connotations.

As for EFC publishing it ? even were EFC trying to prevent the project being ?called-in? ? what on earth is the point of pulishing the letter on the EFC website? Do you imagine that the government officials will check the website before making their decision?

I do agree with your last point but would add that irrespective of which side one is - the EFC PR machine is at best negligent,

Rupert, so far as the the letter is about Everton’s ability to compete and has ’negative’ connotations - in my opinion it is spot on. Without major new investment and income we are screwed.

I actually agree that Everton’s PR over Kirkby has been absolutely atrocious. But mainly because the club has not been prepared to be honest with the supporters about the very unattractive financial state we are in, and has not made a stronger case for why we need a new ground and can only afford Kirkby.

By not being more honest and direct it has enabled many (as evidenced on this site) to continue to believe that we are proposing to go to Kirkby when we have much better options that for some bizarre reason we have decided to ignore. We don’t. If Kirkby is indeed called in we will realise how few other options we really have.

Neil,
What do you think is more beneficial for the entire city including Walton and Kirkby and everywhere else....... A prosperous and vibrant city centre employing over 100,000 local people (Just 2 miles from Walton)or a peripheral retail park (5 miles from Goodison) employing a few hundred when completed? According to the UDP for Knowsley this development is at least 5 times bigger than required for Kirkby’s population. According to RSS and regional retail heirarchy Kirkby does not even register due to both its position with respect to other areas and their already funded/built retail capacity. According to 2 separate independent reports this development impacts directly on Liverpool city centre which is the engine room for the whole city-region’s economy. St Helens, Sefton and West Lancs have also comissioned reports showing the same for their already established retail capacity. This is why ALL neighbouring authorities have objected. We can’t push for the full redevelopment of the regions city’s real focal point interms of comerce, retail and culture, and put something that competes directly with it in Kirkby! Walton for all its downsides has managed to support a traditional victorian high street when so many others have vanished.... with no small contribution made by EFC’s presence. Knowsley’s own leaked studies indicate no real nett increase in employment given the inevitable losses elsewhere..... Kilfoyle might do well to read that report too. He has nothing to support his argument but political rhetoric!

I also wondered what the club would gain by printing the letter on the official website. Apart from looking like right tits. Can anybody explain why they done it? Kilfoyle had already sent it to the department that will make the decision. Was it for the benefit of fans like me, totally against the move? Was I supposed to look and say " Well if old whiter-than-white Peter backs it, then it must be in our best intrest, so let's pack up and go!" All I can say is, "what a gang of total pricks we have running the club I live and breathe!"

Neil, what makes you draw the conclusion ?Without major new investment and income we are screwed?? Has something happened this week that I'm not aware of? As far as I know, we have survived for 116 years at GP and we are still alive today. Survived since 1992 and the formation of the PL. Did I miss something when I saw our average attendance was 36-somat thousand last season, when we have a capacity of over 40 thousand?

How does £78m of debt and a half-empty Tescodome equal the opposite of being screwed ? especially now, as Mr Kilfoyle points out, that we are headed for recession? Is a recession the best time to be taking on a project of this scale? Are other businesses speculating as we are, or tightening belts? How does a half-fullTescodome equal major new investment and income (to us and not others!)? It?s the same stuff over and over, and its giving me ulcers. There is nothing in Desperation Kirkby that aligns itself to our tradition, and there?s not one aspect of the project that holds water against a redevelopment of GP ? the EFC endorsed Kilfoyle letter demonstrates these 2 points brilliantly. To quote Ian Ross ? End of Story.

Paul Heron, Spot on. Kilfoyle sold the socialists down the river then and he?s putting the knife in the anti-Kirkby lobby now. Timing is suspect to say the least. I fear if the scheme doesn't get called in on Monday, it's all over and a slow death for EFC will begin.

Do you really think he would have sent the letter to the government, if LCC was a Labour run council? I doubt myself.

Rupert, I've had a few e.mails back from our own Mr Ross. One telling me I was aggresive with my response. I was only asking for Umbro's e.mail address that he told me to write to, as the delay had nothing to do with EFC.

Mick - you know, prior to today I would have been surprised that a man responsible for PR could react in such a way. Following the e.mails I received this morning, however, I am now surprised that a man who responds in such a way can be employed in PR.

They are a bloody shower the lot of them...

Well done, Peter Kilfoyle. His analysis of the contribution EFC makes to the local area?s economy is absolutely right. His criticism of the ?too little too late? City Council is correct. I now expect the anti-Kirkby Brigade to come up with a new ground proposal on the wasteland on Church Road West (it?s some 50 years since I lived there so I?m not sure if the site is still available!) Anyway keep fiddling lads, Rome?s about to burn!

Sid,
Did Nero have an exclusivity deal with the barbarians too?

Rupert they just get worse and the best thing about it he thinks nothing of it. I still want to know what I said that he deemed aggressive. He never told me when I asked.

What Kilfoyle says is true, there is a tremendous anti-Everton bias in the local authority so the club will never get anything worth having within the city boundary. All the knockers that inhibit this web site dine out on conspiracy theory and anti-Kenwright statements. Why not some positive alternatives, the odd £50,000,000 donation might nice to start, if Kenwright is being castigated why can?t the know-alls here find a nice American like Liverpool and Man utd did or even a rich Thai perhaps!

Tom - of course the Kirkby development will compete with the surrounding area. It’s part of it! That is indeed why the LCC is so passionately trying to kill it (and a potential new stadium for Everton in the process - but hey-ho...).

The point that KD is "five times bigger than required for Kirkby’s population" is just confused if it’s supposed to be an argument against it. So what? The development serves the broader area, not just Kirkby. Again - is Kirkby on the moon or somewhere? I don’t follow why it is more important to have jobs and economic activity in one part of the area (e.g. downtown Liverpool) rather than another (e.g Kirkby). Usually it’s better to have economic activity spread across an economic area. Liverppol is not going to disappear without Everton in Walton.

Joe, you are a lot more optimstic than I am!! Last time I looked the teams who finished beneath us last year were richer, and are increasingly better able to buy better players than us. Moyes has kept them beneath us for now, but he can’t perform miracles for ever. If Villa, Portsmouth, Man City, Spurs and Newcastle consistently have more money than us for better players - then eventually they will finish above us. Then we won’t qualify for Europe. Then we will lose Lescott, Cahill, Arteta and the Yak. So we need more investment and more income.

I strongly believe that we will not able to attract a major new owner and new investment without having in place a financially affordable new stadium. I don’t see another stadium we can afford apart from Kirkby. I hope that if, unfortunately, Kirkby is called in, the major new owner we need will emerge anyway - despite the fact that there’s been no sight of them for the past five years. But I think more likely we will then realise what a predicament we really are in.

Rupert - that is an amazing admission you?ve dragged out of Ian Ross there. In the words of the club?s own communications officer, the club aren?t interested in winning over the supporters who don't want to go to Kirkby. What a cavalier attitude to the 41% of eligible voters last August, and probably the majority of all Evertonians. That Liverpool-Manchester corridor is going to have to be heaving with latent Everton supporters to make up the shortfall if we ver do find ourselves in the Banana Republic of Knowsley.

And as for IR stating - disgracefully, mind you - that the club can?t sometimes say what it would like about issues (in this case LCC) and so PK served a purpose, well I didn?t notice the need for outsiders last August when Mr Wyness was lambasting LCC for pulling out white rabbits.

I?d say your e-mail correspondence was incredible, but it all seems too likely for that.

Neil,
As a Blue who lives on the Kirkdale-Walton border, I take issue with Mr Kilfoyle and will be writing to him regarding his letter. As a constituent, I believe he has let his own constituents down.

If EFC move, every pub, cafe, chippy, sandwich shop, newspaper/sweets/ciggy shop, is going to be battered. The majority of pubs, the ones that haven?t already closed that is, will find it impossible to go on. County Road/ Walton Road, from the Black Horse to Half Way House (oops, gone already!) will just find this the final nail in its coffin.

Mind you, some businesses might be saved if the Reds deign to use them on their way to their new home, laughing at the site at the top of Spellow Lane that used to house a football club.

To me there are two issues here, one is the politicking of our own MP. Does he really think that the 2-300 jobs that might come with a new Tesco?s in Kirkby, will provide the residents of Walton with any sort of recompense for what will happen to our area? I?d appreciate it if you stuck to why you feel it would be a good move in going to Kirkby and not be so pompous as to tell me and the rest of the residents of Walton, how good it will be for us when/if Everton will move out.

For the record, I am firmly of the opinion that our club will begin to die if we move, because we will have moved from our city. That and only that, is the reason I voted No. What it will mean to my area? I?ve not used that as an argument in any of my posts for staying, although I know, it?ll sink us in Walton if we go. I want Everton to eventually become a great club again, I can only see this happening if we stay in this city. You take a differnt point of view, Fair enough, but for fuck?s sake don?t patronise me by saying EFC leaving will be good for us.

A recent Knowsley Council report states that the only jobs guaranteed to go to Kirkby residents will be 400 that Tesco have agreed to provide under a Job Guarantee Scheme. There is no indication as to whether these jobs will be full-time or whether they will be allocated to part-timers. So there are no jobs guaranteed for Walton residents. As we’re heading for a major recession (confirmed by Mr Kilfoyle), who’s going to have the money to spend in the 40 new stores planned at the proposed Tesco retail park? The man has broken all parliamentary conventions by poking his nose into the affairs of another MP’s constituency, whilst at the same time, treating correspondence from non-constituents with contempt. I am one of his constituents. The only way that a move to Kirkby will benefit me is the money I save by not renewing season tickets for me and my granddaughter, parking charges etc.

Neil, just one question!
Do you think that the current board are doing a good job?

"Everton FC has, historically, drawn support from all over Merseyside, and beyond. It is the emotional property of all of its supporters, wherever they may live, and wherever it is based. There are sound economic arguments for the local community for Everton FC to stay where it is; but that may not be the economically sensible choice for the club and its longer term future."

This statement is not from anybody at EFC, it?s from an e-mail sent to myself from ... Peter Kilfoyle ... this was dated 13/04/2007. Anybody notice the contradiction? the full contents of the series of e.mails between myself, Peter Kilfoyle and his assistant, Gary Booth, are on the KEIOC forum.

Very interesting reading they are as well!

Are there any Evertonians in Kirkby who welcome the stadium in their domain? As for LFC getting off on us shoved from Goodison, don't they have their academy in Kirkby?!!!! Kopite bastards...

Jim, my apologies if I seemed to be taking lightly the immediate impact of Everton leaving the Walton area. My main point was only really to say that Kilfoyle was making the reasonable point that having a very major development right next to his constituency could bring benefits to his constituents. I am assuming that one of the things in Kilfoyle’s mind is the big new development in Stanley Park - so he is less concerned now than he was about Everton leaving.

Michael, on whether the Board are currently doing a good job! (I am setting myself up for complete vilification now, but here goes...) Personally I think the tone and stability of a football club starts at the top. To me, the current Board has stabilized the club over the past six years, and enabled us to achieve what we have on the pitch. I compare in this respect our leadership favourably versus two relevant comparables - Newcastle and Spurs. So I really do believe that there is credit due on this dimension.

Financially, the jury is still very much out in my opinion. I have said many times here that Kenwright does not have the funds to support a modern top class Premiership team. I think there are a number of scenarios here.

On one, Kirkby goes through and, based on acquiring a brand new stadium at such a relatively favourable cost, a new owner is secured and new investment is pumped into the club. The squad is strengthened, and Everton becomes a pretty permanent top 6 Premiership club. The current Board will then look like they presided over a remarkably successful transitional period in the club’s fortunes.

On another, Kirkby goes through, no new investment is forthcoming, the new ground costs substantially more than expected (although it will still of course be cheaper than other new grounds)... and things look a lot less rosy. Ditto Kirkby doesn’t go through, and we are languishing in GP not even able to do much about upgrading it, watching Liverpool’s new shiny monstrosity loom over us in the park.

So, in the grand scheme of things, it all depends for me on whether this Board can hand on the club to new wealthier owners who are more of the Lerner than the LFC Muppets variety. None of us know this yet.

On more tactical matters, I agree with the sentiment here that a very poor job has been done on mearchandising. I disagree with most here who complain about ’asset stripping and outsourcing’. There is nothing particularly good about owning assets or performing activities that others could perform better. Indeed in modern business the preference is to be asset lite and outsource. So these financial activities have enabled the club to put money into players on the pitch, and have therefore made perfect sense in the circumstances. And I think the PR has been abysmal.

Bradley has responded to Kilfoyle with this letter;

http://www.juicefm.com/article.php?article=3322

Neil ? I don?t disagree that we need major investment, but I don?t agree that if we don?t we are screwed. I also don?t see how Kirkby magically provides us with major investment ? it provides the opposite ? debt and an inferior home to what we have now. Moving to Kirkby will not mean that suddenly investors all over the world will be knocking on our door ? why would it? Not unless any potential new investors would be happy to buy a club that would then be around £140m in debt (current debt + Kirkby), and based on the mirror success stories of other clubs who have gone for new grounds ? Bolton, M?boro, Wigan, Derby, Sunderland, yarda yarda. Pinch me.

Lest we forget it, the argument on this thread is about the letter from Kilfoyle and the decision that Our club made to endorse it. The letter purports that EFC makes no contribution to the area in which we have lived since 1878, and that we should go away - regardless of Kilfoyles own motives, this is not a sentiment that Our club should be endorsing.

I disagree strongly with your comments on merchandising. BK has already admitted that there is a profit to be made in having our own stores, but that it was ?not worth it.? A club screaming out for investment should not be ignoring every possible profit stream. Outsourcing is fine to a degree, but when you outsource to a business completely incapable or not interested in providing that service, like JJB, then how is this ok? Every profit, no matter how small, is worth it. Tag on our presence on the high street and a decent service provision for us the supporters, then can anyone agree with BK that its not worth it.

Joe, the logic on getting the new owner is that no one will buy us if the first thing they have to do is find the money for a new stadium. You think they will buy us even if we are still in GP. So why haven’t they then already? I think any new owner believes that the investment / revenue equation of GP is not attractive (too much to upgrade for not enough additional revenue).

They probably more emotionally would (a) like a shiny new stadium, and (b) not want the club they now own to have a ground literally in the shadow of the bigger local rival’s.

The point about Kirkby is that there is absolutely no way we could ever get such a new stadium at such a low cost. So getting Kirkby makes us more attractive to a new owner. As I have said before, I believe that actually this is what Kirkby is all about.

On merchandising, I am not sure we are in that much disagreement. I absolutely agree we should be making money out of it. I absolutely agree that the JJB has been a bad deal. I disagree with you and most other posters here about outsourcing - outsourcing is almost certainly the best way to go as long as you outsource it to someone who is going to do it properly.

Neil,

you certainly make a number of valid points in your arguments, and I can already imagine your response to anyone who would say that scenariio two where DK goes ahead and fails miserably, is too much of a risk. I?m sure you would turn and say that we desperately need the investment to carry on competing at the level we are (and potentially at a lower level if this does not happen soon).

Personally I do think that we do need heavy investment (I?m not making a startling revolation here, as I think most people take this as a given... but certain people in their opposition of DK are beginning to say this is not the case). The response that Aurthur Jones received from Kilfoyle is what you would expect from a politician, and also our PR dept. That way they cover themselves in any outcome really. However, that?s far too close to the original thread - whilst this is all about analogies.

Whilst I admire your tenacity, I still do not see the logic of increasing debt so significantly for what is in effect a substandard product (albeit for a price that?s, well... nice). How can this make us a more attractive package. I mean if they could sell Kirkby stadium off after buying it to recoup some of the money outlayed, then maybe. It could be seen as a dog thrown in in a deal with a gypsie. If our new found billionaire owner could simply give this Tesco box to one of his children as perhaps a doll's house or somewhere just to have a kick about, then maybe I could see why the new owner would like the idea of having a 'cheap as chips' stadium.

It?s like moving from a slightly run down Victorian house, owned by generations of your family, to a caravan because you haven?t managed to get a model into bed with you - unlikely to succeed.

Chad, very good points. As you say, I agree that Kirkby is a risk; but I think staying where we are at this stage is a bigger risk. It ALL depends on attracting a new owner. That is the big picture here, everything else is pretty irrelevant. In the grand scheme of things, whether we are in GP or in Kirkby with Bill providing investment buttons - not much difference. We will be in relative decline versus our richer competitors anyway.

So it all depends for me on whether Kirkby will give us a better chance of securing a new owner. I think it will because (a) we need a new stadium to generate additional revenue, (b) this one is such a good deal. The additional debt for Kirkby (maybe £50M after offsetting factors) is pretty small potatoes for the kind of new owner we are seeking.

Your argument that a really rich new owner would want more than Kirkby is probably right. But then they would have bought us already and would be fighting the RS to build on Stanley Park.

Neil ? since the new Anfield will not literally cast its shadow as far as the grand old lady, surely you don?t think that moving 5 miles up the road is sufficiently far enough to be outside of the metaphorical shadow of our darling neighbour? The type of person(s) capable of buying a business the size of Everton are not likely to be fooled by trying to make out we are no longer in the same sphere of influence as the shyte because we are a few miles up the road.

Additionally, I don?t think a club in a medium quality stadia and saddled with (probably) in excess of £140m of debt is a more attractive proposition. I am still confused as to why the first thing any new owner would want is a new ground. Is no one coming to the Blackburn game in 4 weeks with me? It?s at GP. It's still there and it still works.

I think the main reason we haven?t sold to an investor yet is because BK is the guy on the job. That and the fact that they don?t want to sell up. Isn?t that a clause in the whole Desperation Kirkby project? Seem to remember reading it.

Neil,
I think you are missing my point. If its as simple as you are implying to generate wealth and boost economies by simply allowing retail developments will-nilly then everyone would welcome this development and more besides. The fact that ALL neighbouring authorities are objecting would indicate that it isn’t that simple. That’s why we have planning legislation, and this violates all of them on every level. You can’t just keep planting retail developments anywhere without it affecting other areas, there isn’t infinite demand to sustain it. The city-centre is the real focal point for the city region, logistically, commercially and culturally and increasingly the onus is on preserving and enhancing this for a multitude of reasons. All roads lead to town. Its whole future success has been heavily invested in to the tune of £Billions with thousands of jobs involved and planned for without this additional retail capacity in Kirkby. It’s a fine balance that can’t be tinkered with readily. EVERY report concludes that this size development is totally unwarranted for Kirkby (by over 400%) and will substantially affect businesses in the city centre which has the whole city’s future riding on it not just Kirkby. As far as it benefitting the people of Walton, this is completely laughable. Its like saying Speke retail park significantly benefits the people of the Dingle. There are no studies carried out by anyone to support this development.

Your point about how well we are run is misguided too in my opinion. The 2 clubs you mention have both managed to redevelop their stadia and consistently supply greater funds to their managers, their turnovers both eclipse ours. Tottenham have created plans for BOTH options of either redeveloping or relocating, and have allowed fans glimpses of each. As did Newcastle originally. They both did their homework and can show a real decision-making /design process unlike EFC who just say they have exhausted the options but have nothing to show for it. Fact is they haven’t thoroughly investigated anything and have been totally led from start to finish by Tesco as their enabler with no real concern for the major logistical issues that are still unresolved years after Kirkby was first mentioned. The fact that not even £78m is the gaurranteed final figure based on the highly speculative cross-subsidy further questions the NO PLAN B assertion. Let’s not kid ourselves, our whole recent relative success has been earned by David Moyes’ endeavours and expertise despite the board and not because of them. I’m sure he wonders what he could achieve given the resources of the clubs around him.

Have any of you read this yet?

Bradley’s reply to Kilfoyle;

The leader of Liverpool City Council has hit back at Walton MP Peter Kilfoyle, after he came out and publicly backed Everton’s plans to move from Goodison to a fifty-thousand seater stadium in Kirkby.

Mr Kilfoyle wrote a letter earlier this week, which was printed on Evertonfc.com (See below) - Warren Bradley has countered that with this response:

Warren Bradley said:

Dear Peter,

I write to you in total amazement having now read and digested your letter posted on the web.

I can honestly say during the protracted period that I and many other people have been working towards finding an alternative to the retail/leisure and football stadium development in Knowsley, you haven’t once been in touch wanting to discuss progress, or the lack of it according to your informant.

I am aware the only dialogue you have had locally has been with the former Chief Executive (Sir David Henshaw) of Liverpool City Council when you apparently gave your blessing to the scheme some years ago.

I can only glean from your sudden supportive statement, that the Secretary of State, Hazel Blears, is about to announce that the scheme won’t be called in and you are showing political support for such an ill informed crass decision; which will set a precedent, and leave many communities up and down the country rueing the short-sightedness of the decision.

I would comment on some of the ignorance in your letter:

"........indeed the city-region is already ahead of the country in the race to recession."

The Liverpool and City-region recession is not ahead of the country; the economy remains extremely buoyant, with the retail spend actually bucking the national trends. Developers are feeling the pinch and the obvious slow-down is beginning to bite, but not at a pace that exceeds the rest of the UK or internationally.

"Frankly, this will not happen; nor has there been any meaningful support to that end for the club from Liverpool City Council. In the last ten years, it could only offer a proverbial pig in a poke - the abortive Kings Dock site which fell apart - at a great cost to the city - as soon as it came under scrutiny fro the North West Development Agency, and the European Commission. I have absolutely no faith in the City Council’s institutional capacity for such a project in support of Everton F.C."

This demonstrates your absolute ignorance of what all the public and private partners hoped to achieve with the Kings Dock development, as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and might I refer you to the Arena & Convention Centre now built and operating on the Kings Dock. The reason the Kings Dock scheme fell by the way side was due to Everton FC’s inability to raise the required sum of money to become a partner, (£35m). Not for some spurious reason that you have dreamt up, and then put on paper.

" I would also like to nail one of the many myths bandied about concerning Everton and its present location. Councillors have said that there would be a hole left in the local economy if Everton’s £51 million turnover was relocated to Kirkby. This is comic book economics. Everton’s turnover has virtually no impact on Walton wherein it is situated. Most of it goes in salaries and related costs. None if this is spent locally. Neither players nor staff live locally. Indeed, international players repatriate much of their earnings to their county of origin.The only businesses effected are fast food outlets and licensed premises - and then only marginally. For most of the season, the club might only play at home once a fortnight. There is virtually no impact on those businesses for the bulk of the time. Indeed, other businesses say that they might a well close (some do!) on match days, because of parking restrictions."

The economy in and around the district centre of County Rd has remained viable owing to the presence of the football club; the local pubs, newsagents, takeaway’s and many other businesses rely heavily on the footfall from the home games, which I might add occur far more regularly than at your perceived fortnightly intervals during the season; most of these businesses employ local people, as do Everton FC, this again is something you have not researched.

The effect on the local economy will be massive; slowly but surely, if Everton FC do move, the whole area will witness a downturn. Please look around the rest of the city to witness the demise of the local district centres. Everton FC, whether you care to acknowledge it or not, have enabled the retail outlets to be sustained.

"The club and Knowsley Council, together with Tesco, are well capable of making their own case for the proposal before you. What I wish to do - as an Everton supporter and as the club’s present Member of Parliament - is to make you aware that the City Council’s political posturing is just that. Their negativity cannot disguise their utter failure to provide any alternatives for Everton F.C. within the city. If their humbug leads to this proposal being called in, it will do a disservice to the people of Walton as well as the people of Kirkby."

Can I remind you that FOUR local councils have requested that this scheme be called in. All for salient planning policy issues, not humbug; I have from the outset offered real alternatives to the football club:

1. Redevelopment of Goodison Park
2. Tunnel Trumpet
3. Long Lane Industrial Est
4. Edge Lane
5. Joint Stadium

All tangible and deliverable with a modicum of foresight, and new investment?

Finally, I stated in the first paragraph of this letter, you have not once contacted me to discuss Everton FC’s proposals, yet you feel you can send such an ill informed letter at such a late stage looking to gain solace from it. I do firmly believe this letter will be held by many people and used against you; it is a desperate measure when an MP for an area, which has many of the issues Liverpool Walton has, actively supports the removal of a business as large and historic as Everton FC from his/her constituency, and looks to score cheap political points to deflect the enormity of his decision in supporting his Governments political precedence on Everton FC’s removal from the city.

Yours in dismay

Warren Bradley
Leader - Liverpool City Council

In my mind:

Tesco have jumped in while LCC were still getting over Everton mucking them over the Kings Dock. Clearly there is still a mistrust of BK over that.

Everton got tied into the Exclusivity agreement that has prevented any constructive analysis of the alternatives.

It’s gone from bad to worse. Nobody trusts anybody, nobody believes that they have been treated right by the others.

I pray DK is called in and dies, Then get Kenwright, Wyness, Klifoyle, Bradley, Labour councillors, LibDem councillors, Bestway ( if they haven’t given up ) and any other interested parties in a room. Lock the doors, bang their heads together, tell them to grow up, swallow their egos and discuss some alternatives. Then tell us what was discussed.

Can it really be so bloody difficult when they ALL profess to be Evertonians?

Thanks Steve,
By the look of it, Councillor Bradley believes that our esteemed MP knows that the plan won?t get called in by Hazel Blears.
Thanks very much Peter Kilfoyle, if Warren Bradley is right, you have lent your support to see a big generator of wealth move out of our area. What kind of mad economics is Labour following. You regenerate the area by moving business out?

Neil,

Fair enough: I think I ought to direct my anger at Peter Kilfoyle, not you. I’d just like to point out, however, that the proposed site is not right next door to Walton, its about 1/2 a mile from the extreme edge of the Parliamentary boundary.
This, in my opinion, is not a reasonable proposition for the vast majority of residents in Walton. Furthermore, should the Lark in the Park be built, it will not be a major employer in Walton. There will be a football ground and there will be a hotel. The hotel might bring some employment, I can’t see the ground needing many more staff than it does now.
Anyway, according to Warren Bradley, this argument is merely theoretical now. He believes that the scheme will not be called in.
If that’s the case, then we will have to wait and see if EFC have the funds to match the projected increase in costs.
If it has the funds then it will be a question of who will go and who will not (which imo is the more important issue for the club, not what will happen to Walton.)

Liverpool FC have a plan - maybe 5- or even 10-year plan. Part of this plan involves becoming a one city team. It involved getting Everton bought into a scheme that runs them out of the city boundaries. Running in parallel is thier publicity scheme which involves brainwashing Evertonians into believing that ita a good move for them and also putting the blocks in place to get everyone thinking it's a one team city.

Example: Liverpool Echo Arena showed a video at a concert yesterday talking of all the great things Liverpool is known for. The Beatles, the Albert Dock, Lambananas etc etc. Only one team where shown on this video.I felt like butting a baseball bat over Michael Buble?s head halfway through the video.

Wyness and Kenwright are on the payroll. What right do the scum have in running us out of our home? Don?t lay down and die, don?t allow this to happen! If this happens we will be extinct in 20 years and our kids will be watching either the scum or 2nd division football.
My kids won?t though because if Everton go to kirkby they will be getting Man Utd kits.

As an Irish "interloper", 43 years an Evertonian since I first landed in Liverpool back in 1965 (back living at home in Ireland since), may I make the observation that if you are Premiership champions you can have your ground anywhere you like !

I think that Liverpool FC?s obvious plan to get Everton out of the city and then pose as "Liverpool?s One and Only Club" will backfire on them. And make them widely known for what they are, Posers!

Their proposed new ground at Stanley Park runs the risk of generating huge traffic congestion and snarl-ups, with people not getting to games until they are half over, eventually resulting in smaller attendances for them (they were on the right track when they considered moving out to Speke, but I?ll say no more as I am certainly not giving them free advice !!!).

Ostriches, they have a head-in-the-sand attitude, they fail to see the Big Picture - a world class stadium with masses of space to develop outwards over the years still on Merseyside.

Those who do not want to move out of Goodison (due to understandable nostalgia, i.e., living in the past) , condemn Everton to our mediocre club status of recent years where we aim to be number 4 or 5 at the end of the season - and that?s called Victory ??? I call it the greatest P.R. job of all !

Arsene Wenger actually went short of money for players to see the dream of the Emirates come true, the most intellectual Manager in English football, he realised its importance to the future of his club.

Take a leaf out of his book and move out, Everton, and let?s set our sights higher to the only position that matters at the end of the season, No. 1.

Everton supporters around Britain and Ireland don?t care where the new stadium is so long as it?s built, and so long as we have some hope of being Premiership Champions in the near future.

An entire new greenfield site on the city limits would be the ideal, but Kirkby would be better than the old shed we have.

As for the local economy won?t they have an entire 400 new homes in there where Goodison was to re-generate the shops, pubs etc,, a whole new community giving new life to the old area...

Isn?t that what it?s all about ?

The Loop is interesting too, but the proposers are scant and a bit ’iffy’ in their proposals.

Perhaps playing only for the publicity, co-opting Everton’s name to make theirs ?

Is their offer of the site free as at Kirkby ? It’s hard to figure that out from spoof they’re spewing forth so far...

And you can’t continue the future of a great institution like Everton on such vague notions as they are thrashing around.

If it was any good, Liverpool FC would have jumped at it !!!

And if you decide to stick to Goodison and redevelop it, you would have to bulldoze the present stadium. While doing that we could rent temporarily with Liverpool FC for a couple of seasons - they?ll welcome the rent.

Just turn up to play matches and go - the word "groundshare" is out.

Looking over MP Peter Kilfoyle?s letter again, yes, there?s more than meets the eye to it! And why did he choose to write it at this particular time? I don?t blame him for accepting Liverpool FC invitations, after all he has to be all things to all men, he has to play for both teams in all 22 positions at the same time.

Whilst making the decision about the ground I would pay no attention at all as to what Liverpool FC are up to, that does not come into it and shouldn?t come into it. Whatever they?re up to is their own business, not ours.

If we could look forward to beating Man Utd and pay less attention to Liverpool FC, then we would be in the right frame of mind for the coming season.